The Extras - "Little House on the Prairie" with Dean Butler

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

Actor, writer, and producer Dean Butler joins the podcast to discuss his years as Almanzo Wilder on the beloved classic TV series "Little House on the Prairie."  We discuss the phenomenal popularity of the show and how he was cast and brought onto the show in the sixth season.  Dean also discusses his relationship with star and executive producer Michael Landon and some of his memories on set.  Then we discuss his co-star Melissa Gilbert, who was 8 years younger, and some of the awkwardness that gap in age caused with their storyline, including his memories of the memorable "first kiss" between a then 15-year-old Melissa and 23-year-old Dean.  And we wrap up the discussion with a look forward to next year's 50th anniversary of the show and a sneak peek at a project Dean is working on.  Follow Dean Butler on TwitterPurchase on Amazon:Little House on the Prairie S6 Blu-rayLittle House on the Prairie S7 Blu-rayLittle House on the Prairie S8 Blu-rayLittle House on the Prairie S9 Blu-rayThe Sitcom StudyWelcome to the Sitcom Study, where we contemplate the TV shows we grew up with and...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify MovieZyng Affiliate The BEST place to buy all of your Warner Archive and Boutique DVDs and Blu-raysDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.The Extras Facebook pageThe Extras Twitter Warner Archive & Warner Bros Catalog GroupOtaku Media produces podcasts, behind-the-scenes extras, and media that connect creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals. www.otakumedia.tv

Hi, I'm film historian and author John Fricke. I've written books about Judy Garland and the Wizard of Oz movie, and you're listening to The Extras. Hello and welcome to The Extras, where we take you behind the scenes of your favorite TV shows, movies, and animation, and their release on digital, DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K, or your favorite streaming site. I'm Tim Millard, your host. Today, actor, writer, and producer Dean Butler joins the podcast to talk about his career

and his time on the beloved classic TV show Little House on the Prairie. He played the character of Almanza Wilder, who was the love interest for Laura Ingalls and eventually becomes her husband. Dean started on the show in season six and was in 65 episodes running through the ninth season plus three TV movies. He was also a lead in the TV series The New Gidget starring Karen Richman as Gidget which ran for 44 episodes from 1986 to 88. He has been in dozens of TV series and films and was a producer for the Golf Channel. So we're very privileged today to have him on the podcast. Dean Butler, welcome to The Extras. Thanks, Tim. Nice to be here with you today.

Well, this year will mark 40 years. It's kind of amazing. But 40 years since The Little House on the Prairie finale, which I believe was in 1983. Yeah. Though you had some, you know, you had some movies, I think in the year or two after that. But we were talking just in preparation for this podcast. And I was saying, okay, you know, is it available on streaming? You said, yeah, it's available on Peacock, on Prime, on iTunes. And I know, you know, fans can get the Blu-ray and DVD box sets and all the seasons. So it's still extremely popular. So before we dive into a little bit of your experience on the show, why do you think the show has endured for so long? I think Little House has endured the way it has because it touches on themes that are so universally attractive to people. It obviously stresses family. It stresses community. It stresses goodness. It stresses honesty. It stresses those kinds of positive attributes that people have, and we did it, the show did it, you know, through telling stories that revealed the problems that can result from misbehavior.

And did it in a very lovely way. You know, the show was unabashedly emotional. It was unabashedly emotional. It was unabashedly sentimental. No one who loved the show was going to be surprised to see people crying in every episode. So it was something that became part of people's family. We see that now through the years. And for me, it's been, this is now my 43rd year associated with the series, actually starting the 44th year. So this is the kind of thing that people come back to with the show again and again and again. I think it also, to so many people, Tim feels safe. It feels like you

know what you're, you always know what you're going to get. Anybody can sit down in front of this program, any age from child to senior citizen, and there's something for you in every episode. And that was one of Michael's goals in making the program is he wanted to make television that families could sit down and watch together and have conversations about together on a multi-generational basis. ourselves in today where, you know, dad's watching one thing in one room and mom's watching something somewhere else. And multiple kids are watching different things on their multiple devices. Right. And so other than the huge live events that we have in our culture, we're not getting that water, those water cooler moments, as we like to talk about years ago, where there was a shared experience that America had. We weren't all having the same shared experience, but we were watching, more of us were watching fewer things that allowed for a

commonality of experience in the culture. And I think there's value in that. And that we don't have anymore. We've given that up for something else. And only time will tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing. You're so right on the money in terms of the family watching. That's how our family did it. I mean, my mother, just to give a little background for the listeners, but my mother was a huge fan of the show and she kind of brought the rest of the family into it. And that's because it really related to her family history. And I think there's a lot of people in the Midwest, you know, of course, that it did as well.

Her mother literally was born in Mankato, which you could drive easily to Walnut Grove area from Mankato. And she was born in 1900. About 40 minutes, I think. Yeah. And she was born in 1900. So my grandmother, so she was a little, maybe a decade after, you know, the series or so, but that's still close enough that she felt a real affinity to the lifestyle that, that kind of on the farm, small town, Minnesota. So she really like grasped onto the show because

of, of her own memories of her grandparents and her parents. Yeah. And they eventually moved a little bit North Minnesota, but same thing, living on a farm and everything. So she brought it in, our whole family, we watched together and you look at the ratings from those years. I mean, it was a perennial top show. So it was really popular throughout America for all those years. So, but here's the thing. My mom has passed now. You know, a lot of that generation is gone, but the show, I mean, I remember it affectionately, fondly watching it. And, you know, we just gathered around. We, as you say, it could lead to discussions. It could lead to, you know, topical things, but it also had just the ease of, it was never going to offend anybody and parents

never had to worry about what their kids were going to see in it. So it's always great for that. I think, you know, the episode where we had the Sylvia with the clown rapist or the, you know, I think that's sort of one that pushed the boundaries of what Little House was. Now, Michael was a huge horror fan. And so he did this episode that of all the episodes I think of, and I wasn't, I wasn't in Sylvia, you know, maybe I was sitting in church at one point, but that's the one that I think gives people pause when they, you know, out of 200 and something episodes or, you know, one to one or two to really grab an audience or make them say, wow, that's a little different. You know, that's pretty good. It's pretty good.

Michael had a need to express himself in a particular way, and it was compelling. It was powerful, but wow, a little different for Little House. Well, I think that's a good segue into kind of asking you, I mean, you came in in season six of the show. I'm sure you knew about it. You were a young actor and how could you not know about Little House on the Prairie? What are your memories of kind of, maybe your agent or manager brought it to your attention and tell us a little bit about how you actually got involved with the show. So the first part of your question, other than knowing that it existed, because yes, when you're a young actor in the community,

you sort of have to, you have to make it your business to sort of, to know what's out there and have a sense of what you might be castable in. But I had never watched a full episode of it. You know, at that point in time, it premiered on Wednesday nights. By the time I, and that was 1974, I was just graduating from high school and going off to college. You know, I wasn't sitting in front of the television on Wednesday night at eight o'clock watching Little House on the Prairie. When it moved to Monday night, it was in direct competition with the second half of a Monday night football game on ABC. So I wasn't watching it then.

When the meeting came up, my agent at the time was a woman named Ina Bernstein. And Ina was one of the grand dames of ICM during that era. She was ICM's top television agent. I was very fortunate to be signed by her after doing a movie the week with one of her clients, Stephanie Zimbalist. The movie the week was called Forever based on the Judy Blume novel, which is now being remade as a series. the Judy Blume novel, which is now being remade as a series. But Ina was a huge Little House fan. And she said to me when this interview came up, she said, if you get this, you will do this show. This is one of the best shows on television. I cry every week when I watch it. And this was, you know, this was a sentimental woman, but you know, nobody's fool. She was, you know, she was a serious minded person and a very accomplished

businesswoman. I mean, way ahead of the curve in her era in terms of what she had accomplished. Little House, she loved Michael. She loved the kids. She loved everybody. And so when this happened, she was, no one could have been happier about it than Ina was. But had she not really emphatically told me that this is something that you, you know, how agents can be that they tell you, this is something you want to do, or we want to do this. We don't want to do this. Right. So we, you know, so we, we don't want to, we, we do. Little House was something she, we definitely wanted to do. So I was knocked out after getting it. And there was a long process of,

a long process of auditioning for it in the spring of 1979, multiple meetings and back and forth. I was going still in college at that point. I was going to the University of the Pacific up in Stockton. I was commuting down to Los Angeles to do these auditions. And, you know, when it finally happened, it happened like two weeks before graduation. And I went through graduation, celebrated my 23rd birthday and reported to work on Monday, you know, the Monday after that. It was an amazing, it was just an incredible, fortuitous, you know, memorable for me series of events. So I was just knocked out by the size of it, Tim. I'd done some small things. I'd seen,

you know, obviously seen production units, seen honey wagons, seen camera trucks, seen... But, you know, with Little House, you arrived, I arrived in Simi Valley on that first day and went up the road in the van and arrived at the Little House set. And there were 20 trucks, and it was 20, 25 trucks, and it was everything from makeup and hair and wardrobe, camera, audio, lighting, animals, wagons, all of these things that you had to have in order to bring this world to life. And it was just like this, at the Little House, this parking lot of all of this logistics, including the thing I never forget is the big Blue Max bus, everyone called it the Blue Max, that had this huge banner on the side of it, you know, watch Little House Monday Nights at 8 on NBC.

And I thought, oh, my God, I've, you know, I've arrived here. And I was just, I was knocked out by the sheer size of it. And then contrast that when you have all of these bodies and all of this equipment and all this stuff, and then you're pointing the camera at these intimate, beautiful little moments that are happening between people that are so everyday type stuff. There was nothing huge about it. It was very, very simple and intimate and honest. And it took all of these people and all of this equipment to drill down and create those frames that were these beautiful, simple things. And then you had David Rose on a scoring stage writing this beautiful orchestral music that was giving every character this massive emotional life, this beautiful, rich, textured, romantic emotional life.

And I just think the combination of that, you know, all those, those ingredients coming together just made the show. If you got it and not everyone got it clearly, but if you got it, you were hooked and you were, you were going to be there watching that for a long time. Remember Michael said to me one time, I know what we're doing isn't for everybody. But I know there are a ton of people out there for whom what I'm doing is everything.

And he was very confident about his job security. You know, and that's, you know, a series television goes, I mean, if you know, if you get three seasons, you've gotten an eternity, you know, so Michael had three eternities and, you know, and five eternities with Bonanza and two plus eternities with Highway to Heaven. Michael was a massively huge presence in television. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I mean, going back to Bonanza just real quickly. I mean, I remember going to see my grandpa, you know, he had retired by that time. He had like 20 acres and he would go out there. He had some cows and other things like that. This is down at Bend, Oregon. And I would go down the summertime and he would work us, you know, he tried to

teach us things, you know, as a, as young men. But, uh, when it came time for Bonanza reruns to be on at two or three in the afternoon, that was it. Work was over for at least the length of the program. And, uh, I mean, those are good memories for any kid to be with your grandpa. And of course I loved it not only because it was a great show, but I got a break from whatever he was making me do, you know? Yeah. So, uh, but good memories. But speaking of Michael Landon, did you, he was an executive producer on the show.

Did you end up reading for him before your cast? And then what were some of your experiences with him? Stay with us. We'll be right back. Hi, this is Tim Millard, host of The Extras podcast. And I wanted to let you know that we have a new private Facebook group for fans of the Warner Archive and Warner Brothers catalog physical media releases. So if that interests you, you can find the link on our Facebook page or look for the link in the podcast show notes. the link in the podcast show notes. Yeah, no, I ultimately, Michael was the last set of eyes that was on anybody that was cat. I mean, certainly in a part that size, I think that

there are, you know, guest cast, although I think Michael looked at it, you know, Michael met everybody, you know, he, he, He probably did, yeah. He really did. But my meetings with him, I had one meeting with him where the casting decision was made. The previous meetings had all been with Susan Sukman, who became Susan Sukman McRae, who cast the show, I think from, I want to say from like season three to the end. And Susie had a lovely way of dealing with actors. You know, she just made people feel instantly comfortable coming into the room. She was, she was nothing like other casting directors I had met. She was just sweet and warm and funny

and interested and, you know, really, really truly looking for ways to see you succeed. If you could succeed, she was going to help you get there. Doesn't mean you were going to get the job, but she was going to do everything she could do to give you the best chance to present yourself in a way that was going to be what she knew Michael was looking for. I always remember Tim coming into the office the first time and finding a stack of pictures a foot tall on her desk. And the second time I came back, it was six inches tall. And the third time I came back, it was two inches tall. And the last time I

came back to read for Michael, there were four pictures on the desk. Now, I never saw any of the pictures, but I knew I was in there somewhere. And at the end of that meeting, after that reading, he asked me what I was doing at the end of May. So now it took them two weeks to make an offer. I was just about like, you know, ready to slit my wrist because it was taking so long. I was back at school and completely unable to focus and concentrate because, you know, I'd had this happen to me before where someone had basically cast me in the room and then it didn't work out. And so I had that scab on me. And so I was, you know, everything I'd ever heard about this guy said,

he just wouldn't do that. You know, he wouldn't say that if he didn't mean it. They had their timing on what they were doing. And I had my timing, they had theirs, and their timing went out. And it took them two weeks to make an offer. And I was calling every, probably I was calling Ina Bernstein four times a day saying, you know, what's going on. And I'm sure she was working the phones to be present, but not pushy. She never wanted to appear desperate, but it was, you know, it was quite a time. You know, you asked about what was Michael like. He was a wonderful, wonderful director, and he was great to act with in a scene because he was very present. You could look into his eyes

and you knew he was there. And, you know, when he wasn't working, he always had Carrera sunglasses on. So you really couldn't see his eyes when he was directing. But when you were acting, and that's not always true. I mean, on the stage, you know, it was dark and he, but he wore other glasses. He had these big round glasses that he wore. They weren't round, but sort of square glasses. And then the Carreras outside. So he had a little bit of a shield in front of him, but he could watch you very closely. You always knew.

And this was before the days of video assist. So there was no gathering. No one was gathering around monitors watching a performance or watching a playback or anything like that. Michael was right next to the lens when he was directing. He was always right next to the lens and he was watching very carefully. And you knew if you got it and you knew if you were going to do another one and you knew it right away. And he was really masterful at sort of knowing when to stop. And, you know, frequently he got what he was looking for on one, one or two takes. And you really needed to just trust him that when he, when he

said print, he meant it and he got it. And there was no, there was no need to do anymore. And, um, I think as a, as a young, insecure actor, you're always thinking, oh, my God, I could have done that better. But you had to learn to resist the temptation to ask, can I have another one? Because he knew. And if he got it, there were no more. He was moving on because he was shooting seven and a half pages a day. was moving on because he was shooting seven and a half pages a day. And he did it between eight o'clock in the morning and four 30 in the afternoon or five at the latest every day for five days a week. Right. And he didn't mess around. Right. You know, it was business. It was, yeah. He kept

it light. He kept it fun. It was always loose. There was, there were very few tense moments on that set that I can never remember. I mean, people were laughing, people relaxed because they trusted him and they knew that he knew, you know, so it was a really great set to work on. And he and our producer, Kent McRae, made it that way. You know, they just had this, Ant McRae made it that way. You know, they just had this, they exuded a level of confidence that just communicated to everybody, we got this. We're golden, we're good, we have no issues. And that was such a gift. That was a real gift. And because you came on really at the sixth season, it was a bit of a well-oiled machine by then. Totally.

Because I just recently, before our conversation, reviewed a few episodes. And there's kids, there's dogs, there are horses. There's a lot of logistics in any one scene sometimes. You got a schoolhouse scene. And we'll get into this first episode, actually, that you were in, Back to School Part One. In that episode, there's, what, 15 kids in this schoolhouse in one town, and then Laura goes to another town. There's another bunch of young people. So you've got to work with a lot of kids.

You've got you driving the horse and buggy. I mean, there's a lot of animals and things like that. But by season six, they had it down. Animals and things like that. But by season six, they had it down. Yeah, no, I think, and I have a sense that because Michael's crew had been with him since Bonanza, and he kept these people together. They came into this as a well-oiled machine. I'd be very surprised if there was any hiccup at any stage of this. I think they came into it well-oiled and greased,

and the shows just worked. And Michael knew, because of 14 years of Bonanza, he knew how to make television of that era. Now, if you were making television today, and Michael, you know, has been gone for 31 years. He was 54. He would have been 85 now if he were still making television, which would just be amazing if he could have done that. You know, television would be very, would be demanding in a very different way today in terms of the look of it, the amount of coverage that's required to give it this cinematic look. And I don't, you know, I, I think, look, Michael was a brilliant guy. I think he could have adapted, but he knew how he wanted to make things. Sure. Yeah. No. Well, let's talk about that. That first episode of W you got the audition, you got the part. And as you mentioned, this was going to be a multi-season role potentially as the love interest to basically the main character of the books and, and then also of the series. So it's an important character.

What do you recall of that first episode kind of stepping on, other than it was a large production, but were you nervous? Were you? Oh my God. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

You see, you know, and the thing is tim i didn't i had not read the books so i didn't really understand what was coming here you know i mean i i knew that you know i i knew it was an important part didn't know was the scale or the scope of the fandom that surrounded this. And that people really, you know, you're dealing with generations of people who had been reading these books already. I mean, they had started to be published in 1931, that character Valmanzo was introduced to the reading audience by 1933 in her second book, Farmer Boy. And he's nine years old at that point. And then, of course, the books keep coming out. We see him again, and she presents him in a very particular way, which all leading to these happy golden years where the relationship really

blossoms and they get married. And that's the end of the series as she envisioned it, you know, was that marriage and it was over. Well, I was going to ask you along those lines, how much did you feel some of the expectation and external? Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. I think I did have those moments thinking, and this is, you know, this is sort of, you know, actor narcissism thinking that what would I do that could screw this up? You know, that would wreck it. And Michael was never going to let anybody wreck anything. Right. Yeah. Even if you were having a bad bad day he was going to help you make it work and um you couldn't have every day be a bad day but you could have some bad days sure and or tough moments and scenes and he would you know he'd help you through but you know when you're when

you're the actor and it's sort of you know it's sort of always all about you when when you're the actor and it's sort of, you know, it's sort of always all about you when, when you're, when you're the actor. And it's sort of, that's a bit of a cliche, but it's, you know, I think it's, I think there's a certain truth, which is why cliches are always have a certain amount of truth to them or a lot of truth. So, you know, there, we're all sort of myopically focused on ourselves. And I think the people who do this best are people who get off of themselves and focus on everybody else and trust that they're okay.

Right. And that they don't have to worry about themselves. They're focusing on what everybody else is doing and giving their best to those people, but not being fixated on their own results. And I think that I think people are blessed with that. If you have that as an actor, what a gift you are to everybody you're working with, because you're focused on the right things. You're focused on the team. You're focused on the process. You obviously have to know your dialogue and you have to come in ready to bring the best of yourself. But trusting yourself and giving all

of your energy to others is really, you know, an important piece of this. And that takes some time to learn that. Now, some people maybe just walk in with that. And if they do, they are really the lucky ones. I think for most people, it takes some time to learn that. So for you, I take it that that's where you were at. You were just kind of focused on yourself there. Oh, I was just like, yeah, am I going to do this right? Am I going to say the lines right? You know, am I going to stumble? Am I going to say something stupid? Am I going to say the lines right? You know, am I going to stumble? Am I going to say something stupid? Am I going to look bad? I mean, you know, all of these demons that you've got spinning in your head. Oh yeah. I had all of that going on. So I mean, it's been 40 years or actually more

since, uh, since that first episode, but I mean, I rewatched it because again, it's available on streaming and I guess, you know, it's been years since I'd seen it, but I couldn't help but saying there's Dean's smile. I mean, all you had to do to some extent to get the likability across was your smile. Right? I mean, to a certain extent, you've probably been told that, but you flash that smile. And as a viewer, you're like, this is a likable character. I'm going to like this guy, I think. Unless you're bringing some really heavy expectation, I suppose.

Right. I think you hit a very key point that's sort of one of the – part of the secret sauce of all of this and why casting directors, producers, directors have a huge pool of talent to pick from when they're casting something. And they just have to be patient enough for that person to walk in the door that says to them, that's it. And that decision gets made in about eight seconds. And, you know, you can have a lot of people who read well and they, you know, whatever, they've got a nice quality and, you know, they're intelligent and they bring all the

stuff. But there's this intangible thing that we as each of us own something. We are all unique. And if we allow ourselves to be unique or allow ourselves to be ourselves, we are in the best position to bring that special something in the door. It's when you're thinking about what do I need to do to be special that I think is just a complete loser of a position to be in. You're not authentic then is the thing, right?

As an actor, you're not authentic. You're not authentic. Yeah, I know. Exactly. Exactly. I think you have to be present and in the moment. So for me, that, you know, you should say that smile or whatever, you know, whatever that is, that combination of things, I think that that has been, or was for me as an actor, the thing that people wanted from me, you know, that they weren't looking for. And of course I wanted it to be complex and brooding and challenging. And, you know, I wanted it to be all these, you know, I wanted to be all these different things. you know, I wanted it to be all these, you know, I wanted to be all these different things. What people were hiring me wanted was me for, for me just to be an affable good guy.

And that was sort of hard for me to wrap. That was hard for me to wrap my head around because I thought, well, I have to be so much more than that. And the answer was, no, I didn't have to be anything more than that. Wow. You know, so live and learn. Yeah. You know, live and learn. Well, with that, the other things that I noticed is, you know, obviously you watch that episode and Melissa Gilbert, she's pretty young and she's quite a bit younger than you. Yeah. And in that episode. And a lot smaller.

Yeah, because you're, how tall are you? You're pretty tall. You know, at that point, I was probably 6'1". Okay. And Melissa was probably 5'4". Right. Yeah, there's a large difference. But not only that, the age difference between,

she was what, 15 at the time? 15 and I was 23. Yeah. So just that maturity level of the look. Huge difference. And even in the episode, they start her off, she's running to school with her brother and all the other younger kids. They really highlight the fact that she's still a little girl in many ways. And over the course of that episode, she meets you, a lot of things

happen. And it's like between the beginning of that episode, the end of that episode, the maturity that her character kind of arcs pretty tremendous. And sets what is going to happen of course in the season but um talk about meeting her melissa for the first time and what that was like with the age difference you know interestingly today i think if you were doing that kind of a casting, forget the age difference between us, because that's a whole other thing. But, you know, you would generally do mix and match sessions with actors and you would, you know, you'd bring in the character that the actress group of people that producers had decided were the possible candidates for this job. Michael never did any of that. There was no mixing and matching. Michael cast, I mean, he did the mix and match in his head. And he just made the decision, with all these characters, these people are going to work and they're going to work with each other. I feel it. I know it. He had great faith in that.

So I didn't meet Melissa until that first day of shooting. I obviously knew who she was. You would have to have been deaf, dumb and blind in America to not know who she was at that point. But she really was a little girl when she walked into the room. I was in the makeup trailer that first day, sipping on a cup of coffee, and in she comes with this one of her little calico dresses on and the pigtails and all that. And I looked at her and, you know, to myself, I'm thinking, wow, she really is a kid. She's a little, she's a, she's really, she, there was no sign of young woman on her at all. It's just like, there just wasn't any evidence of that. So I'm thinking, wow, this is really going to be interesting

to see how this develops. But the age difference, that eight-year age difference at that age is massive. You know, 15 to 23, you're living in different worlds completely. And so, you know, we had, other than the fact that we were, you know, both human beings, and we were both here in this situation, we had very little life experience in common. You know, okay, there are cultural references, sort of the big cultural references that you everybody knows that you have in common. I can you wave to on the street or on the dirt road, you know, you just wouldn't have thought there was anything like that. And when this all started, and of course, people, so much of our audience had read the books and knew the books, and they knew when they met this character, they knew where this was going. And immediately, I mean, they knew that the character was coming. I think that that had been, I think that the promotion for the season had sort of tipped that off.

I'm sure. But no one had seen me yet. And we got letters from mothers around the country saying, what are you doing? How could you put this man with this little girl? What message are you sending? How am I supposed to communicate this to my adolescent daughter, who was ogling someone older? How do I tell her that's not appropriate when you're doing this? And I think it was an interesting dilemma. And, you know, I think Michael, I think it was part of why he cast me. I was and am a very well-behaved man. I was raised to have an enormous amount of respect for women. I like women. I was raised to like women and trust women and have an abundant level of respect for women. So I knew how to behave.

Well, that wasn't a question. I just don't think today, if you flash forward, so we did this in 1979. Today, with everything that's going on in our culture, there's no way you could do that casting today. That would be an absolute impossibility to do that casting today, I think. Now, someone may disagree and say, oh, no, we could do that. And here's how we do it. But I just think audiences now, the good news is that we don't have the mass audiences that we used to have. These are very niche audiences today. So you wouldn't be offending perhaps as

many people, but I think there could be a real problem with our casting today. I just think it would never, never happen. What you just said that kind of is shocking is that you hadn't met her until that first day of filming which just from an industry perspective sounds mind-boggling in a little way but very common that part of it's common yeah okay but for something that's as important as this yeah that's the trajectory of a whole program yeah to not read together or anything, you know? Yeah. You know, Tim, I, I, I think I would say this. I think if I had met her beforehand, if they put us in a room together, I would not have been cast because I think she would have absolutely had a fit. Okay.

I think it would have been a disaster for her if she had met me in a casting situation. She might have liked me personally, but if you've read her book, she wrote a whole chapter about this. She was completely overwhelmed and repelled because of her lack of experience. She knew that we had nothing in common. Now, to her credit, and I've always said this to her, she gave no indication that she was anything but totally confident and okay with the situation. It took years later to discover how absolutely flipped out she was by this pairing. And I don't know what she ever said to Michael. I don't, I don't know. Right. Um, I think I have to ask her that. Yeah. Um, you know, did she ever approach him about this? Something tells me that she probably didn't, but she had the kind of relationship with him where she could have.

Well, that was an exceptional relationship that she had with him. Well, knowing what you've just said about Michael and his instincts, it feels like maybe that was not accidental, that he knew that, you know what, I think we'll just go this way. And, you know, that he knew what he was doing as a director, producer. No, I think you're right, Tim. Yeah. I mean, he just like, yeah, we're just going to once he's there, that's it. But if I get all this resistance going into the going into the situation, that will be hard to overcome.

So, yeah, he just didn't even give her the opportunity to object. Right. Well, I think I've read online, too, where you've talked about this and you talk about her mother as well. Oh, my God. Just like, yeah, I mean, it was as in the, the, the situation later in the year with this episode, sweet 16, where the first kiss happened. Right. I think that's what on the set was really felt when she, when she cried out before the kiss, the before the kiss could happen.

I don't think she was looking to wreck the tank, but she did. Oh, she wrecked like four takes in a row because she just couldn't bear to see her. She was just flipped out seeing her young daughter in this situation, you know, having to do this kiss. And this was her this was her first kiss of someone other than someone that didn't have to kiss her, you know, or a parental figure or a familial figure in her life. So this was a big deal for her. Well, I watched it. She cried endlessly.

Barbara was just, she had to be asked to, like, she had to be finally asked, you've got to get a grip on yourself. Oh, wow. You can't keep doing this. Well, how did Melissa react? Well, I think she was totally, she was horrified that her mother would behave this way. She just wanted, I think, you know, hearing about reading about this later, she just wanted to get out of there after this was done. She couldn't wait for it to be over. Yeah. Please, someone take me home and get me away from all this. Yeah.

I mean, I think that was not a fun day for her. Well, I'll tell you what, you guys were professionals because I rewatched it and it looks very natural. I just kind of skipped right to that episode, you know, before we talked here to remind myself what that was like. And it's very kind of low key. It's very sweet. Yeah, it's very sweet. Very low key. It's innocent.

It's in the moment. I felt like I had to be younger than she was in that scene. Not that a young man in that period of time is going to have a whole lot of life experience outside of, you know, a few kisses. But, you know, this was, I felt like in order to make this okay, I've got to be younger than she is in my, it's got to be as awkward or more awkward for me than it is for her. That was my take on it in order to have it not be something that could in any way look or feel lascivious or taking advantage or any of that.

And I think that was probably Michael's... One of the things that he watched most closely was to just make sure that we were playing this so, so straight and so underplaying all of it and keeping it just really, really innocent. That was a big deal. You know, I've often thought, Tim, it would have been great if, you know, if, if, if, if, if Melissa had been three years older, if she'd been 18 and had a little life experience, had some dates, had a couple of boyfriends or a boyfriend or whatever, so that this was not completely, but that wouldn't have been what it was. Right. You know, it might've been easier for us to work together because we would have had something more in common, but it wouldn't have necessarily been good for the show. You know, there could never be any kind of Harlequin novel quality about this.

Right. It had to be chaste and pure, and that's what we got. Right. Wow. That's what we got. Right. And looking at that sense, I think that, you know, Michael's instincts were terrific and we all served those instincts. And I think one of the reasons that people love it so much, without question, is because of that innocence and that sweetness. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, looking back at that season, things happened fairly rapidly from the first episode to the Sweet 16. And then really by the beginning, is it right at pretty much at the beginning of season seven that you guys actually in the show get married?

Yeah. We're talking. Do we get married at the end of that season? No, I think I read that it was season seven, episode two that you guys got married. But the point is that- Yeah, it was Laura Ingalls Wilder was the name of the episode. Yeah. Laura Ingalls Wilder part two. I mean, I think that from a, you know, obviously in TV time, that could be more than a year, but in people's real life, that was only within a year of watching, so to speak, one season of TV television,

That was only within a year of watching, so to speak, one season of TV television, 24 episodes or whatever that was, 26. 22, yeah. Yeah. And so this moved the audience very quickly from, you know, the young little half pint to a married woman. I mean, and that was fast. That was a lot for people to take in. But it also kept the story and the audience, you know, moving along. And that, which I think is important probably for a show that's in its sixth, seventh season, you're starting to get maturity and fans can start to drop off a little bit. So you've got

to keep the interest there. Yeah, no, it's true. It's true. What are some of your other favorite, uh, or if it could be either a favorite or memorable, but outside of the few that we just mentioned, uh, when you look back on the series. There was an episode called The Nephews, which was not an audience favorite, but I loved it. It was when my older brother's two children, two boys come to stay with us, and they're just hell raisers. They're just complete pranksters and wise guys, and they just work Uncle Monzo relentlessly for this hour.

And every conceivable, practical joke that they can do to rattle Uncle Monzo, they do. And, you know, finally, Laura sort of, you know, being the world wise person that she was at that point, you know, she sort of straightens them out and lets them know that we're not going to take this anymore and that there are going to be consequences for your bad behavior. So but it was, you know, it was fun. It was it was high energy. The kids were lovely. They you know, the little one of the little boys was the young actor who did the great scene in Airplane with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the cockpit of the airplane. Yeah.

I don't remember his name, but he was so terrific in that scene. And he was, he and his fellow nephew were, were little hell raisers. They were, they were great. They were great. They were great. So that one I really loved. An episode later, well, an episode called Divorce Walnut Grove Style, which was very early on after the wedding where, you know,

the glow comes off this moment and we get to see some problems. And, you know, Laura thinks that Almanzo is being unfaithful with this, you know, singing a song called My Only Love, which he's wanting to sing for her. But so, you know, there are all those kinds of things that went on. episode called a two part episode called days of sunshine days of shadow where, and it was really an episode that they did to see if they, they wanted to see if the two of us could carry something that would lead to a ninth season because Michael was getting ready to step away. And so they loaded up this episode with every calamity that we could possibly have. And, you know, hailstorms and I had a stroke and diphtheria and, you know, all this. So much happened in that. And it was the wonderful acting challenge of the time that I had on the show

to play these different conditions and, you know, try and find a way to make all that work. And, and it was, that was great fun. It wasn't a, it wasn't a happy episode, but it was a really satisfying episode to do. But, you know, when you look at the totality of this, Tim, you know, so many good things in the show and the audience love and affection that has come, that came at me during that time and in the years, all the years since, has been really this incredible gift. It's just been amazing. I mean, the show really spoke to people and it continues to speak to people. spoke to people, and it continues to speak to people. Do you have the opportunity to see any of the folks that you worked with back in those days?

I know there's things like the Hollywood show here in LA and other places. There are groups of us that do a lot of traveling around the country to do events together. So, you know, we don't see everybody because you can't have everybody there, but we stay pretty close. We, I think we all know that we're part of something that's bigger than all of us. And there's a lot of respect that comes from that, that, and I, I think, you know, we've looked to take care of it and nurture it particularly in, you know, and that that's what the 50th anniversary coming in 2024, you know, that's a big moment. You know, to celebrate 50 years of Little House is going to be, you know, a pretty great thing. Well, maybe we should talk about that.

I mean, do you already know or are you guys talking about things you're going to be doing? You know, I think there's a lot of talk about different things. You know, we think that there are going to be a pretty good number size of events that year. You know, we're looking at different things that are going to happen. But look, we don't know. I think that the Laura Ingalls Wilder book community, which is really drives all of these sites in the Midwest, you know, they want to give people an opportunity to have a moment and we have to make it, we, you know, we have to figure out what's going to make it special. The 50th makes it special all by itself, but we have to make it special for people,

you know, to come out and celebrate with us. Are you, are you personally going to do anything kind of looking toward that 50th? Well, I'm working on a, I'm working on a literary project. I'm getting up at five o'clock in the morning, you know, to begin to advance this narrative. And it's going to be part memoir, part look back at 50 years of Little House, but, you know, we'll have a but it will have a strong Little House foundation. I started thinking about a book in 2021 as the pandemic was going on, and then it became more real in 2022. And then last year, I really actively started working on it. It would have been really great if I really actively started working on it in 2021.

But, you know, but I, but I do have a hard deadline now. And, you know, there's a, there's a word count and a proposal and a, you know, and all of this and a, and a deal with a publisher. And so there will be a book. Okay. Well, there will be a book. You and I aren't doing this podcast because it's related to any date or event. We met at Herbie's book signing.

Herbie J. Palato. Herbie J. Palato, yeah. One of the great names. Yeah. And Herbie and I, of course, we did an episode on The Six Million Dollar Man. And listeners who haven't checked that out should go through our catalog and listen to that podcast. It's great. But you were there because you guys are good friends and colleagues. And you were talking about a Christmas episode, which we haven't talked about yet,

that was on Little House on the Prairie, which is a really good episode as well. But I was pleasantly surprised to hear about this writing project of your own. So I'm looking forward to it. And it hadn't even dawned on me that, uh, writing project of your own. So I'm looking forward to it. And it hadn't even dawned on me that next year is the 50th or whatever. So maybe we'll, uh, I'll be giving you a ring so we could talk about that. I hope you, I hope you will. Yeah. I hope you will. Hopefully the studio will maybe, um, I mean, there's a good Blu-ray out there. I think, uh,

there's a lot of good options for the home entertainment audience, but I'll keep an ear out as well to see if the, uh, the studio behind the home entertainment release, I think it's Lionsgate. Um, if there'll be doing anything new for that as well. So, well, Dean, this hour has flown by. I can't believe it's, it's coming up on an hour of our discussion, but, uh, man, it's a real pleasure to have you on today. Uh, it was really fun to talk about Little House on the Prairie. And you know what? I was going to ask you questions about a couple other 80 shows, which I love that you did. You did three episodes of the love boat and fantasy Island. You did a couple of like, I mean, everyone did those shows. Yeah. I love those shows for that reason. You said you'd tune in who's this week's guest star there would always be what three or four guest stars per episode uh more more i think i think there were probably eight or ten guest stars yeah yeah yeah i mean those are so iconic of that era um and you know it's it's fun to watch those and just all of the stars that would rotate through those shows. And then you also, you had a whole series, uh, uh,

you were a lead on the new Gidget with Karen Richman back in 86 to 88. We didn't talk about that. You, you played on Buffy the Vampire Slayer too. I see. Buffy's dad, right? Yeah. So you've had quite the career. I know today we were just primarily talking about a little house in the Prairie, but, uh, I did want the listeners to know about some of the other stuff and it would have been fun to ask you a little bit about those, but we'll kind of run

it up. Yeah. Yeah. Next time. Yeah. So, well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you, Tim, for having me. Tim for having me. Thanks again to actor Dean Butler for coming on the podcast to talk about his time on Little House on the Prairie. If you're a fan of classic television, I did mention the previous podcast episode with Herbie J. Pilato, where we talked about the $6 million man Blu-ray box set. That episode's from last summer. So be sure and look through the back episodes if you're a fan of that show, as I think you'll enjoy it. Or you can go to our website at www.theextras.tv

and I'll post a link there as well, as well as links to, you know, purchase the Blu-rays of Little House on the Prairie. Now, if this is the first episode of The Extras you've listened to and you enjoyed it, please think about following the show at your favorite podcast provider. And if you're on social media, be sure and follow the show on Facebook or Twitter at The Extras TV or Instagram at TheExtras.TV to stay up to date on our upcoming guests and be part of our community. And for our long-term listeners, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review at iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast provider. Until next time, you've been

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