The Extras - Revisiting SUPERMAN: The Restoration, Stories from Production, and Memories of Director Dick Donner

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

SUPERMAN is one of the most revered superhero films of all time and is credited with launching the modern superhero film craze.   But it also has one of the most interesting and controversial behind-the-scenes stories in film history.  In this episode we are joined by three esteemed guests who worked with director Dick Donner on the "Superman: The Movie" restoration for DVD.  They tell stories of working with Dick, the actual logistics around the restoration work, and the impact it had on both Dick and Superman fans.  Their close working relationship with Dick allowed each of them to see just how emotional, and sometimes painful, it was for Dick to revisit the movie to do the restoration.  They share their memories, give us peeks into what Dick was feeling, and shed light on the burgeoning DVD market of the early 2000s.The Guests:Michael Thau first worked with director Richard Donner on "Ladyhawk." He led the restoration of Superman and was the driving force behind "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut".Derek Hoffman was Dick Donner's assistant then, following in the footsteps of Geoff Johns (DC) and Kevin Feige (Marvel).  He is currently a VP at The Donners' Company. Jonathan Gaines is a pioneer extras content creator going back to the days of Laserdisc. He worked with Michael on both the restoration and produced the Extras content.Purchase on Amazon:SUPERMAN 4K 5-FILM COLLECTION BOX SETSUPERMAN: THE MOVIE 4K SUPERMAN II: THE RICHARD DONNER CUT BLU-RAYThe Sitcom StudyWelcome to the Sitcom Study, where we contemplate the TV shows we grew up with and...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify The Extras Facebook pageThe Extras Twitter Warner Archive & Warner Bros Catalog GroupOtaku Media produces podcasts, behind-the-scenes extras, and media that connect creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals. www.otakumedia.tv

Hi, I'm film historian and author John Fricke. I've written books about Judy Garland and the Wizard of Oz movie, and you're listening to The Extras. Hello and welcome to The Extras, where we take you behind the scenes of your favorite TV shows, movies, and animation, and they're released on digital, DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K, or your favorite streaming site. I'm Tim Lard, your host. Sometimes the stories behind our favorite movies

can really enhance our love for the movie itself. The original 1978 Superman and subsequent Superman II, The Richard Donner Cut is one of those stories that I find fascinating and is really a terrific home entertainment story. And to tell that story, I have three very special guests on to talk about restoring the original 1978 Superman for the DVD release. As many Superman fans know, the original Superman was envisioned as two films and director Dick Donner was filming them simultaneously.

It was a very public falling out between Donner and the Salkinds, the producers of the film. And eventually that led to his dismissal, even though he had already filmed around 75% of that second film. It's one of the great behind-the-scenes film stories. And we'll get into it both in this episode and a second Superman episode, which will be specifically on Superman II, the Richard Donner cut. And if you're wondering why we are talking about this now, well, this film is part of a new five-film box set of the Superman films coming out on 4K. And this is releasing on May 9th as part of Warner Brothers' 100th anniversary celebration. I want to introduce you to my three guests. Jonathan Gaines was most recently vice president creative content at Warner Brothers Home

Entertainment, where he worked for 15 years. And he has been a producer of extras since the days of Laserdisc. And I had the privilege of working with him for about 12 years while I was there. Derek Hoffman is currently vice president of development and production at the Donner's company and has worked with the Donner company in various roles since 2000. Michael Thaw is a producer, director, and editor who has worked on the Goonies and the Lethal Weapon series, and he restored Superman the movie for the initial DVD release. And he produced and edited Superman 2, the Richard Donner cut. I can't think of three guests more qualified to speak to our topic today. So I think you'll really enjoy the conversation.

Jonathan, Derek, Michael, it's great having you on the podcast today. Hi, thanks for having us. Great to be here, Tim. Thanks. Well, before we dive into the discussion of Superman the movie, I did want to get a little background on how you guys first kind of tied in with the Donners. And we'll start with you, Michael. When was your first interaction with Richard and his wife, Lauren Donner?

They weren't married at the time, but I met him on the toy in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. But I wasn't working for him. I was working for the editor. And then I ended up on Ladyhawk, which he cut in the helps quarters at his house while he was rebuilding his house. And then because I was so outspoken, I think Lauren and Dick were kind of impressed. Stuart, the editor, was horrified that I opened my mouth because apprentice or assistant editors should keep their mouth shut. And they both asked me to be their assistant. She wanted me to be her assistant on St. Elmo's Fire. He was about to do Goonies,

and I decided to work for the director rather than the producer, but it wasn't anything to do with Lauren. They were already in love because of Lady Hawkins and soon got married on Thanksgiving Day. I forgot what year. That's awesome. 86. And then Derek,

how did you first interact with the Donners? I started out, I was in LA just trying to get a little work while I was here for a couple of weeks. And I wandered into a, an interview on a movie that I didn't know what it was. And it turned out to be the X-Men and I'm a huge comic nerd. And I was like, is this, is this X-Men? And I turned to the person to my right

and started peppering them with questions. And it ended up being Kevin Feige, who was Lauren's assistant at the time. And he and Jeff Johns were both getting ready to make their moves outside of the Donner's company. So they brought me in and I started out as the Aaron guy and I worked with the Donner's still do was with Dick for 23 years. And that was back in what, 99 or? It was 2000. 2000. And then Michael, for you, toys goes all the way back to, do you remember what year?

82, I think. 82. Wow. Wow. That's way back to, do you remember what year? 82, I think. 82, wow. Wow, that's way back. And I started working directly for them on Goonies, which would have been early 86. Fun fact, on Goonies, Michael's the first face you see in the Goonies. Yeah. He's one of the convicts walking out of the prison.

I also helped out as a cameraman as well, too. So then, Jonathan, how did you get looped into this group? Was it on Superman the Movie? Restoration? Yes, my first introduction to Richard was on Superman. I was an independent

DVD content producer for Warner Brothers, working with Paul Hamstreet, who was the head of the department at the time. And he told me that they're starting up Superman and that would I like to produce the special features and the special edition. And of course, I jumped at the opportunity. And that's how I was introduced to Michael, who was already set up on the lot at Warner Brothers, working on the research for the restoration. And then that's how I met Derek as well and Jeff Johns at the time.

And it was the first of many more Richard Donner films that I had the pleasure of producing the bonus features for. Jonathan was an accomplished DVD special features producer at that point anyway. He had a great license plate on his car as well, too. What was it, John? It was DVD Guru. And I was ahead of my time because people would say to me, is your name David Guru?

And then I would explain to them it's DVD Guru. And then still early on the day, you'd be like, DVD? What's that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, I remember being on the set of Lethal Weapon 4 doing some shooting and people would say to me, what are you doing here?

What are you here shooting for? And I say, the DVD. And they're like, what? They would look at me with contempt that I was shooting for the DVD at that time. On 4? Well, we both worked for Paul. And interestingly enough, I called Paul. On the street.

On the street, yeah. And I said, Paul, if I were to have somebody come on the podcast to talk about Superman, who would you suggest? And of course, he suggested you, Jonathan. So I'm really excited about our discussion today. And it's kind of fun to just see how you guys all originally got hooked into the circle of Dick Donner and Superman. So let's go now to Superman, the DVD. Michael or

Jonathan, tell us, you know, how did it originally come up and who pitched who and how did that story all come about? Okay, well, I'm going to let Jonathan do most of the lion's share of this. But the way it came up was that DVDs were beginning to surface. Standard definition, not Blu-rays. And I was looking for some work. And so I said to Dick, why don't we pitch Warner Brothers on making a DVD of Superman 1, restore it, remix it, because it was really pretty much mono, the original mix, and do a bunch of special features on it. And we came up with some wonderful special features. I'll let Jonathan tell you about all that. But a gal that worked for Dick named CeCe Niebuhr knew someone in the home

video department, which was just a fledging department at that point. And it was Paul's boss. It was the guy that was the head of that. And we pitched him on it. And he said, yes. Little did he know how much money we were going to spend. Okay, Jonathan, you take over from there. I mean, this was the early days of DVD. The explosion was just starting. And all the studios,

including Warner Brothers, were looking at their libraries and seeing how they could bring back out beloved films. And Superman is at the top of the list for a lot of people, including myself. And the opportunity to tell a proper behind-the-scenes documentary and really shine light on the history of this film and its accomplishments was a golden opportunity. And a lot of us had already known a lot about some of the backstory about it and the drama behind the scenes, Booth Dick and Tom Mankiewicz and the Salkinds.

But there had never been any kind of true documentary that looked at it from a filmmaking perspective. So the opportunity to do that was a dream come true for me personally. And we got started on that and it ended up becoming a great archaeological dig to find the materials that we utilized. And it was a goldmine that we eventually uncovered to work with so then you took it to paul or paul's boss and you guys pitched that uh we'll do a restoration and we'll do the documentaries i remember correctly it was already the restoration i think was our when i came on board it was already underway because Michael had an office on the lot already. And then I was brought in to work on the documentaries and also to assist Michael in any way that I could on the restoration.

And I had some previous experience doing restoration work on some Laserdisc projects beforehand and all that. So it was exciting to be a part of that as well. But my particular focus was on the documentaries and working on securing interviews and writing up the drafts. We did many special features that no one has ever done since, like the standalone music that is in sync with the film, so you could turn off the sound of the film and listen to just the music. It was in 5.1.2. No one's ever done that since, I think.

We had all those casting tests that were shot in 35, and the TV commercials, the teaser, everything, we threw the kitchen sink at it. Well, Mike, to get those assets, first you had to get all of the film itself, which was over in the UK, wasn't it? Tell us a little bit about how you got the assets sent to you. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Hi, this is Tim Millard, host of The Extras Podcast. And I wanted to let you know that we have a new private Facebook group for fans of the Warner Archive and Warner Brothers catalog physical media releases. So if that interests you, you can find the link on our Facebook page or look for the link in the podcast show notes.

page or look for the link in the podcast show notes. Okay, so Warner Brothers had the final negative here in the United States. The outtakes, the B-neg as we call them, everything that wasn't in the final cut was in the UK. So Technicolor had the longer cuts of different scenes and the additional scenes that the Salkinds had cut to extend their TV broadcast version because they were being paid by the minute. So the film, which was way too long to begin with, two hours and 43 minutes, I pitched Dick to make it shorter. I had a couple good cuts. One was the poem. Oh, my God, that poem was just horrible.

Can you see me fly? just horrible. Can you see me fly? Anyway, I wanted to cut that, and I wanted to cut a miscellaneous chase scene in Metropolis before he goes to the boat where the guy hits him over the head and he says, bad vibrations.

I don't think Mank could have written that because that was just too horrible of a line. Had it been the Benz. Anyway. It couldn't have been Mankiewicz, of course not. The critique. It probably was, actually. Well, I was just going to say, before you get to the logistics of all that,

there's the Dick Donner perspective of it, which was a fascinating thing of like his trust in Michael being paramount to letting something, which is a very vulnerable thing to him. Like for him, he would talk about going back and revisiting these movies. And in that time, the first one,

he was very, very happy with though. Oh, he was, well, he was happy. He was happy with the whole thing, but just, just the idea of going back. Cause he's always like, you know, that was my movie and that, and shut it off. And the idea that people would want to see these things. He, he didn't understand that was not, it was not in his realm of experience. So in working with Jonathan,

he would always talk about how you two specifically, and that your love of it and your love of the process that he went through was one of the only reasons he could allow this to happen and not because, you know, as a director like he is, he's such a control freak. He's such that thing. And to be able to let other people come in and explore these things was, I mean, Michael, you know, like it's a big deal for Dick to let go of minutiae control for a lot of things. And it was a testament to the both of you that he trusted you so much and would allow this.

And he was continually flabbergasted by the extent of which you found things and were able to grow each part of this, the journey. That's more of the Superman 2 experience, I think. The Superman 1 experience, he only watched it twice with me. One at the beginning where we ran the 70 millimeter split surround. where we ran the 70 millimeter split surround. There was only like three or four theaters in the world or in the U.S. that could run split surrounds, which is essentially 5.1 back in 78 when it came out.

We ran it once. He couldn't believe it sounded so mono. I said, we've had the Dolby guys here in the theater checking out everything so that you're hearing what your mix was. And he wanted it to become bigger and all that kind of stuff. And then I found that there was a lot of optical printing problems that I could fix. And the whole thing of Superman 1 was done on film. There was no video fixing of anything. It was all finished on film. And then we spent a huge amount of money remixing it. And what the fans don't realize is that the three or four signature sound effects that we kind of changed a little bit, which I have been hammered on for the last 25 years or whatever it is.

Like when Superman goes into the door because he can't find a place to change while she's up falling off the helicopter. They called it, it sounded like a boomerang sound effect. Okay. What they don't know is we replaced every sound effect in the film, every car screech, every whoosh, every everything. But the only thing they cared about was their boomerang sound. So Mike, I wanted to ask you, did you restore the Superman, not the one that was extended as well for the DVD?

I did both, yeah. Yeah. And then, Jonathan, I was watching some of the behind-the-scenes feature that you guys created, and it looked like you had filmed even like some of the unloading of the assets and opening of the canisters. Is that all of the stuff that was being sent over from the UK?

Well, some of it was and some of it I think was also probably found in assault mines. No, we shot that here. opening up i know that we shot that we shot the b-roll of all of that material but all that material all that film footage was what was uncovered in the search for the film assets is the story tim that you read yes was i went to england and they kept on telling me that all the sound didn't exist all the production sound. And so I went to England to shoot one of the three documentaries on how the special effects were done with one of the special effects supervisors. And I said, okay, I want to go see this storage facility that all the stuff was stored at. And it was a non-temperature controlled, not even a warehouse. It was worse than that. And stuff was just lying around.

Reels were kind of half open. I found a lot of that 16 millimeter footage that was shot for the making of that they didn't use in the making of because they didn't want to show how a man could fly behind the scenes they just wanted chris to be on camera so they shot some other stuff and so i found all the stuff of the behind the scenes of dick directing and all that kind of stuff. It was all shot in 16. And then I found a couple boxes. And they said, Superman, M1, 4, M6, X2. And I was like, wait a second, that's the way we designate music. And it turned out to be John Williams' original recordings. And we had access to the original mix downs into six track of John Williams' iconic score. And that was the beginning of the restoration. So I guess the point that I was trying to make there, Jonathan, is that you guys

planned the documentary even before you got the assets so that you could film all of this stuff. You had pitched all of that at the same time. It wasn't just the restoration. It was the restoration and telling the story of the restoration and then all of the other things that came out once you found the assets, the TV spots and other things that you found after you started going through all of the boxes of material and things of that nature. Do I have that right? I think it was. We knew we wanted to tell stories.

I think the idea of coming up with three different pieces, although it's actually like it's a part one and part two. And then the third piece on the special effects was based on the bounty of material that we that was uncovered and had never seen the light of day it was it was uh incredible to look through all this material and you know we would string it up on a bench and just go through it and i would look at the 16 millimeter and see kind of where you know know, with a loop to see what we had here. And then we would eventually get it transferred. But it was, I mean, if you can imagine just seeing something that hadn't been seen since it was shot, more than likely, it was an incredible revelation and a bounty of great material to work with. So that's kind of what started, of great material to work with.

So that's kind of what started, you know, us to kind of see what we can talk about. What do we have materials to support? And then it was starting out doing interviews. And I think one of the very first interviews we did was John Williams. We interviewed him. And then from there, we went and we booked all of our interviews.

You know, we went and we booked all of our interviews that, you know, we, we went and I think Margo earlier ones. Derek, what do you remember about that time period? I just remember that Dick's, um, in a fascinating Donner ism is that sort of, you know, duality of like, he'd be like, Oh, I just got to let them go do it. Let's see what they're doing about this. Let's see what they're doing about this. You know, it was very like, um, you, I do remember a couple of times, Michael, you coming in to, to show him something or, or, and he would be sort of like, um, I don't know if you got the reactions you needed in the moment and everything, and then you leave, but then he would be thinking about it and he would just be like you could see like the gears would race yeah with the film itself all we did was polish it up on superman but even right but even even

that you you just you just polishing anything up you guys just you doing anything with it he could have come at any time and said of course that's too colorful or this that those up by the way that was the thing is he he also couldn't because if he if he stepped in a little bit he was going to step in like forever so it was that thing of he was letting you do your stuff and and knowing you were always checking in with him and tell him the stuff but i he would think about it when it was done and he would be he was engaged as much as he could allow himself to be without going, all right, here's how we're going to do it. What films were you guys developing or shooting in year 1999 or 2000? That was the prep for Timeline, which before getting ready to leave Timeline.

Yeah, because it ended up getting pushed because was Superman before he went on to Timeline. Yeah, because there was cow disease, and that movie got shut down several times, and there was a writer's strike. And it was a different studio as well, too. And he was building a house, because that's what he did in his downtime. Well, I think now is kind of a time

that I actually want to go back. We should really outline for everybody exactly how Superman and Superman 2 were being filmed simultaneously, which is like such an extremely unique and important part of the story. I don't know which one of you want to dive in on this, but what do you know about that part of the story and Dick Donner coming on board with Mankiewicz, that team, and the Salkinds to actually get Superman launched? And why did they decide to do filming of both films simultaneously? The Salkinds were famous for having done The Three Musketeers and doing a really behemothly long movie and then famously cutting it and doing it in two, but not trying to not pay anybody for the second one. So they were experienced in that and their idea of being able to get something going that large was not new to them.

to get something going that large was not new to them. So they did the Three Musketeers with Richard Lester as director. So he shot a ton of material. And they put out the Three Musketeers. It was successful. And so they just cut the other material and put out and probably did some research. And then they put out The Four Musketeers. And I forgot if that did well.

But Superman 1, they got that idea of doing two films at the same time because it would save money, which it does save money if you're using the same sets and all that kind of stuff. But Superman 1 and 2, which Dick shot 100% of Superman 1 and 75% of Superman 2, before they had to stop shooting additional scenes for Superman 2 to get Superman 1 out the door because it already had missed a release date of summer of 78. And so they pushed it back to Christmasmas so it was a mad rush to to get it done well let's see they also had you know they had brando and hackman and they had like there was the dates and everything and i think when they it was so big and dick and and tom when they came in and you know rejiggered, it was like, there's enough for two. The Salkinds were, they knew how to do two.

They could do it all. The Mario Puzo script is, I used to have it here. And so it was, and for Dick and Tom, it was the chance to tell that big of a story and do that big of a thing all together. And they had, they had too much story for one. And if the producers were going to let them do two, they said, great. No, I think they were down for shooting two films. They weren't down for as much money as they were being offered, but they still wanted to do it because they didn't want Superman to fly away and become a European production. It had to be American. And so they shot both at the same time. And like I said,

they only shot 75% of the second one. And when the first one was being made in the trades here in the United States, they report on films in production. And the trades variety and Hollywood Reporter and stuff like that kept on saying that Donner's going wildly over budget and this film is going to be a disaster and all this kind of stuff. What they didn't say in the trades was they were shooting two films at the same time. So if you cut that budget in half, all of a sudden you're talking about a reasonable big film. So Dick and Tom got nervous and said, look, if we're going to have number one come out and it's not a huge success,

we're never going to go back and be able to finish Superman 2. So they took the ending of Superman 2, which was the most spectacular thing in both films, put it on the end of one, and they said, all right, on Superman 2, we'll figure out how to end it at that point. And so one came out, it was a big success. and so one came out was a big success brando and hackman and prine and that betty had already been shot for both films at the beginning because they were the most expensive actors so you want to use them and then get rid of them so they took that ending they put it on super. It was a big hit. The Salkinds paid Brando like $2.3 million for 11 days of work.

He was willing to come back later to shoot more for Superman 2 because of Dick. And they put it out. It was a big success. And the Salkinds ended up paying Brando like tens of millions of dollars in profit participation worldwide. And so they announced that they were not going to use Brando in the second one. They were going to reshoot his stuff with Susanna York. And Dick and the Sawcrines got into this media war in the trades. trades, and finally they just sent him a telex saying that your services were not needed for Superman II, and they hired Richard Lester, partially to pay him off of what they owed him for Musketeers 4, and he kind of made a different film out of it. Yeah, I mean, it's a fascinating story.

It's very complex, and I don't know that we'll get into all the details of it, but of course, people have written about it. And I know that when you guys were actually going back and trying to restore for the DVD, The First Superman, and you were going to the UK, you were getting these, what? I read, what, six tons of assets being shipped over and things of that nature. Part of the reason why we're talking about so many uh assets was because really you're talking about not just one film what you're talking about no no no at the beginning they only sent over the six tons for the first film stuff

really that's just for the first film okay it was in 2005 that they sent over the other six tons for the superman two material but i needed the original negative the b-neg as i call it to remake all the opticals over again like at the beginning, all those, the white Krypton shots were used, pushing in, pushing in, they were all model shots. They were done on these optical printers that didn't have steady exposure, so they would flicker. So if you watch a laser disc of the last version before I got a hold of it, you can see it flickers everywhere when they because stewart

tricked out everything with optical effects sped up slow down he he does everything to clarify that's editor stewart baird stewart baird and he had two editing rooms going on i think i had read you know one on one film and one of the others as the dailies came in and everything so and he he could keep up with it with the cutting because they could only shoot so much in a day and he was a fast editor so he would get the dailies he would screen him with dick dick would say what he wanted what takes he didn't like everything don't use that shot and then stewart would go to the one cutting room and shoot the dailies for superman one or go to the other cutting room and shoot the dailies for Superman one or go to the other

cutting room because he had actually two separate cutting room and cut for Superman two because they were you know they were planning on finishing both films at the same time so you've got all the assets now and you've begun the process of the restoration what were some of the things that needed to be fixed or upgraded were there some effect shots that needed to be fixed or upgraded? Were there some effect shots that needed to be redone? I mean, I remember most, it's the scene where Lois is hanging off the end of the building from the helicopter. And that's the iconic shot of Superman running across the street to head to the spinning door. He then comes out and then there's the, I guess at the time was a pimp saying, say Jim, you know, and he takes off. Sorry, I've got no time. He takes off

and there was like a scratch on the shot. And I remember that was like one of the one like must fix blemishes that had to be taken care of because it was so prominent and it had carried over and all like the previous versions and that was easy that was an easy digital fix we also had other takes of that as well too so we could steal that little part of it I think that was a lot of the cleanup, too, was a lot of that. And then a big part of the fix was correcting the color on Superman's suit because it turned green. We shot blue screen back then. His costume was blue,

so they didn't have time to massage the color correction between the elements. So there were certain shots they had finished that looked good, but there were some others that, and that was Dick's biggest thing, make his suit look blue, make his suit look blue. I might have gone overboard with that a little bit. I got hammered on Superman 2 for having too much red in that film. Michael, wasn't there also these cloud shots that needed to be fixed? And that was a very interesting story.

So the background of the clouds was a Paramount stock shot. And once you've licensed a piece of film, it wouldn't have cost much anyway. But you have that license forever. So they gave us that shot over again, and we recomposited taking out most of the grain of all that digitally. So that's why it looks so much better in the restoration. And then, of course, we printed it back out to film because everything had to be finished on film.

Superman won. I think I read, too, that when it came to the audio restoration, and you mentioned it briefly earlier in our discussion here, but I think to go into it a little bit deeper, that that was a big thing that as Dick was listening to it and watching it with you, that you guys noticed this whole mono. It's like, where's the stereo? Like there should be more sound. And it felt very mono. And that's- In 70, we were very scared of doing this with the sound. It was an early day of surround sound.

Is that what it was? Or the 70 millimeter sixth track? Okay, so in Star Wars was the first film i think one of the first films that was done in dolby stereo right so that was center left right mono surround there was a format that dolby had that was called split surrounds and dick always wanted the biggest and the best for everything he did so they actually made a 70 millimeter mix as i said it was only in four or five theaters in the u.s that had that format but still it was still basically model they were very scared to put anything back there because they were scared that we get get lost in the theater and whatever.

So yeah, Dick wanted it to be... Superman was dying to be a very dynamic sounding film. And we certainly did it. Well, I remember being on the soundstage and pushing you, Michael, to have the mix be done more, more, more aggressive, more aggressive use of the surrounds and get things moving around. Looking back at me glaring and I'm saying, no, he's right. Put it back there. Put it back there. Put it back.

I remember, I remember like one of the scenes being when the when the phantom zone captures or starts flying over the dome and it goes from the foreground over to the background and then just like really tracking that over our heads so that we can hear it go past us a few times and um and then just pushing the directional use of the space. I mean, here, you know, I was a huge home theater buff at the time and knew the, you know, the value of leveraging those surround sound speakers and putting a lot of movement in them and filling them up and making it feel like a much more immersive sound experience. And when you've got the sound, the music in six tracks, putting those fully out in the surrounds as well, not just in the front lefts and the front speakers. And it made for a really great demo disc at the time, too, for a home theater demonstration.

Yeah, Jonathan was on the soundstage a lot. And when he wasn't in the mixing room, he was back in the projection room, going through all the 16 millimeter footage looking for B-roll to put in the documentaries. Those documentaries came about kind of gradually. We developed the story, which I had first heard Tom and Dick telling the story of the whole rigmarole in the cutting rooms of Ladyhawk. And then from there, we read all the materials that had been published about it, Jonathan and I.

We developed a story. Jonathan wrote a script. When we did the documentary and I showed it to Dick and Lauren, Lauren asked me, who wrote your dialogue? And I said, well, Jonathan Gaines. And she was very impressed with that. You had Taking Flight, Making Superman, and The Magic Behind the Cape. Those are the three documentaries you created?

Right. Taking Flight and The Making Superman was originally a one-hour piece. So that's the one you're talking about that you showed to Dick and Lauren? Yeah, those are the two. Yeah, and that's the one that Mark McClure, who played Jimmy Olsen, was our host for. So we split that into two. And then we had so much material, and we found all this great test footage of how they were going to make Superman fly, that we then decided we could do a separate special effects piece,

because that was the groundbreaking achievement in visual effects at that point. As the poster had said, you'll believe a man can fly. We wanted to show how they made... No computers involved. Yeah. And that was all... Dick and Tom always said the movie didn't work until they came in that one time and saw it work, and they went, oh, my gosh, we can do this.

That one particular shot, that not a one direct shot that was a wire shot of him when he becomes superman and there's a glass face and then it turns around and you go through the eye and he's standing there at the end of the fortress of solitude and then he slightly leans forward and he starts flying the camera and he flies and he flies past us. And all we had to do is they had to remove the wires. And Dick said that's when they were sold. Everyone started cheering after that take because, you know. The funny thing about that take is that it was the shot that proved they could make it believable. a shot that proved they could make it believable but then i think after the take someone said or they noticed it maybe a daily this perfect shot at the very end if you watch it there's a shadow

that crosses chris's face that they were a little uh disappointed in but they were like we're not going to do this again but that's the shot. And is the shadow still there? It still crosses his face as he's going out of screen at the top. Dick mentions that in the commentary track. So I was going to ask you, who did you get to participate in? Who kind of politely declined or wasn't available, Jonathan? For the documentary? Yeah.

John Williams. We had Margot Kidder. available, Jonathan? For the documentary? Yeah. John Williams, we had Margot Kidder. We obviously had Christopher Reeve, which was, I had the honor of interviewing

Chris at his house in New York, New York. And flying there and interviewing and it was, I mean, it's a dream come true.

On the same day you interviewed. On the only thing that I had available for this documentary. Right. I was in New York interviewing Chris and Michael was in L.A. interviewing Dick. Dick. Yeah.

The Margo trip was amazing going to Montana. Yeah. She was living in Bozeman, Montana. We flew out there, Michael and and i and we get to town and i think we checked into the hotel and we're like oh we're here to interview margo kidder and and the woman receptionist was like oh margie oh yeah margie she lives down the road go up to the corner make a right everybody in town knew margo is margie and this was Bozeman, Montana before it became Bozeman that everyone knows now. And it's making me yell at them all the time.

There was horses strung up in front of the bar. It was really a dichotomy because the hotel was very period. But the bar that was kind of a standalone thing in front, you walked in and they're playing Tom Petty. And no one has an accent. It was like being in Southern California. And when Margot Kidder took us out to dinner that night or the next night or whenever it was. No, it was the night that we interviewed her. Maybe not the first day we were there.

But it was this old, decrepit building. And when you walked in, it was like the fanciest restaurant in Malibu. Well, it's because Kevin Costner owns the ranch there and they, you know, they keep it really nice. There you go. Now, I mean, this is back in 2000 that you guys are doing these interviews roughly. So we're 23 years removed. Who did not get interviewed for this that you maybe wanted to have interviewed? The Salkinds.

The Salkinds. I think, you know, obviously Marlon Brando. I'm sure we tried. I got Hackman for five minutes. They had me on a clock. Yeah, he was doing the press junket for The Replacements, the football movie with Keanu Reeves. And it was a Warner Brothers movie.

So they were able to get Michael a slot at the junket really quickly to do that. But if I remember correctly, the reason why so many people did participate, especially like Gene and Chris and Margo was because I believe it was Dick that had sent letters or faxes back in the day, legitimizing this project and saying, I'm involved in it. These are good guys. Please, if you would be so kind as to participate, it'd be great. And that opened up a lot of doors and really gave us the opportunity to interview people that probably hadn't talked about these movies in a long time. And given that there was a lot of drama and maybe some bad feelings left over from how things played out for the second film. It gave a lot of people a lot of opportunity to say,

with the hindsight of time, to say kind of what was really going on at the time. And I think that that was what was interesting. We shot both films at the same time as well, too. Yeah. Yeah. Who else did we get? We got Lynnn stallmaster who was the casting director who discovered uh chris reeve and one of our first interviews um we interviewed people that were appropriate for the script that jonathan developed for the making

of so we didn't actually go after Valerie Perrine or Ned Beatty because they weren't integral into the story of the making of. Hackman was. I'm sure that we tried for Brando. I'm sure we tried for Brando, but he might have been not well at the time as well, too. I don't know. 99.

Derek, what's your recollection of that time and the involvement of the Donners there? Well, honestly, it's really funny. I found we were moving offices, and I literally found the file, Jonathan, with those letters last two weeks. Really? Oh, amazing. With the original, like, with with cc's um this was

superman two letters yeah no it was superman one it was and it to what i was saying earlier it was and that was dick that was his modus operandi was he knew that if he believed in it and if he could buy into what they were doing and he could build that, then he could lend his credibility to it. And he would, but he would say in it, these guys are doing this on my behalf. They have my backing. Everyone knew that it was being done with the way that he wanted, which was important to a lot of people because of the fallout from Superman 2. So knowing that Dick was being part of this and that he was not only okay with it, but he was literally part of it, I think was big for a lot. for a lot i mean i know i remember having a conversation with margo about how important it was that that he was okay with everything being done with superman from their point of view afterwards because it was his his drive you know that really galvanized everything in the first

place and they all felt it was amazing you know jack o'halloran, Sarah, the Terrence, all of like the reverence with which people would have a conversation with me who they had never met before about Dick and about how he, too, and like that dynamic was always great. But it carried such weight and the emotion with everyone involved when they would do any of the interviews and any of those things. You could tell it was a really special and complex time in their lives and their careers. And for 18 months, Dick lived at a hotel in London. and the stages were an hour away. Every day, he drove out and back. I assume he wasn't smart enough just to get a hotel near the stages, but whatever. He lived next to Margaret Thatcher. Maybe that's why it was. Maybe.

I didn't know that. He also has, they have two cars. Still, I think the maroon rolls and the black rolls with the wheel on the driver's side that he bought in England during the time. But he didn't drive them to the set or not. The one person that I've never met that I wanted to was his driver. He was who? The guy that drove Dick and Tom to and from the set is the one person I've always wanted to meet.

And Dick would always had a line like, you know, that guy must have thought, I can't believe they're letting these two people be in charge of anything. Right? Right now. line like you know that guy must have thought i can't believe they're letting these two people be in charge of anything right right now those drives were important because that's when dick and tom would work on the script that's when they would uh would come up with new ideas or they would fix things or they would uh you know work out the details of the story where they were going so yeah those that commute and of course it's to very important. There was always this argument to this day, no one could satisfy who was right. But when Clark comes out of the front doors of the Daily Planet at night

and sees Margot Kidder Lois hanging from the helicopter, he runs to the first phone booth that he can find. And at that point, we had these phone booths that weren't closed. They were open. And he just looks at it. And it's the biggest laugh in the film. And then he has to go run and go through the doors to change. But Dick wanted to take credit for that. Tom wanted to take credit for that.

Tom wanted to take credit for that. Who knows who wrote it? It might have even been the Pooja script. It was the craft service guy for sure. I don't know. Tim, I don't know. Guys, did you do in the documentary, did you do the story

where Jeffrey Unsworth thought he caused the blackout? I remember hearing that. Yes was they were shooting in new york and they he was tapping into so much power to light up the the night sky yeah and and coincidentally it timed with a massive blackout in new york and i think he was he took that inside rehearsing with the actors, and Jeffrey had all of the generators rented out in all of New York City, and he wanted another piece of light or something. And he needed the one extra light. So what they would do is when no one was looking, they would unscrew the plate at the bottom of a streetlight and tap into that power. And so it causes the blackout, but Dick's inside rehearsing with the people.

And there's a blackout in all of New York for how many hours? And Dick jeffrey think for hours that he caused that blackout which was not true well but jeffrey had to go in because the generators were still so they were still lit up yeah they were still mixing dixon's side rehearsing and it's still they're still lit and jeffrey he said jeffrey come in and would tug on him and say i need to talk to you he said jeffrey i'm saying and he said i i really need to talk to you. And he said, Jeffrey, I'm saying, and he said, I really need to talk to you. I've done something. And so then they came out and Jeff, Jeffrey legitimately thought that they caused the blackout and never,

never what, never wanted to let anyone off the hook. I mean, he does that. He's the biggest practical joker there is. Well, I think this is a good, uh, because we're talking about Tom Mankiewicz, it's a good time to ask you guys about the audio commentary. Tom and Dick are the two you chose to do the audio commentary. Is that right? Talk about that, bringing them in and recording that, Jonathan. We recorded that, I think, because Dick was remodeling his house. It was a rental house

in Beverly Hills. And Tom came to Dick's house and it was Michael and myself and Jeff Johns was there. And we brought in a portable audio engineer. And we put the film up on the TV there and put mics in front of them. And the two of them just had at it. It was a great, I think it's probably was one of the first times since when that they actually sat together and watched the film and talked about it. So it was a great opportunity for the two of them to relive the film. And I'll never forget when we started, you know, the movie famously has these really extravagant, long opening credit sequence. And Dick said, man, we would never do that now.

Nobody could sit through the opening credits like this anymore. We would have gone right into the movie. It was very exciting credits as well, too. The music. Oh, yeah. Richard Greenberg. credits as well too the music oh yeah richard greenberg yes who was was one of dick's best friends till the day he passed like i mean and there were so many of those relationships that were built on that movie that stayed forever and green greenberg has done the main titles on just an insane amount of films the shadow is one of the ones that I think about. Simplicity as well, too. Well, the other thing I wanted to ask you about then

is the audio commentary was recorded. You had the other featurettes all done, the documentary featurettes. You had the film. When did you guys talk about doing the extended version, or when did that, or how did you kind of do the coordination of those different versions of the restoration? And was that also always part of the plan, Jonathan, which was a hybrid or reduced down version of what Michael mentioned earlier about the TV version that was done.

And I remember that TV version as a kid because it was the highlight of the year when it showed on ABC for two nights, Sunday and Monday. And they added a lot. Yeah, because they added a lot more during the earthquake sequence and hy restoration of the picture or the longer version. So I had seamlessly planned out where those seamless branches would go. And theoretically, it wouldn't stagger at that point where it goes to the different version. It would just seamlessly branch.

And I'm in San Antonio and we're previewing the film because they were thinking about giving it a theatrical release. And I get a call from the head lawyer at Warner Brothers. He said, we can't put out the seamless branching version. So we've spent all this money. We're just going to put out the extended version. spend all this money. We're just going to put out the extended version. And I'm like beside myself because I never wanted anyone to see that long version except the real freaks.

The two hour and 43 minute version was too long to begin with. I wanted it to be shorter. I wanted to cut out those two scenes that I mentioned earlier because it was too long of a film. Two hours and 43 minutes is too long to expect someone to sit in their seat no matter how exciting the fucking film is. Put an intermission in the middle of it.

Do something, but anyway. Do you have a copy? I don't know. For me, it was the perfect movie, so I don't know. Do you have a copy of the branching thing? No. No, I never got it. Jonathan was able to use branching on another

film where he did a probably the best use of it that i've ever seen in the matrix uh another warner brothers uh feature but i remember i remember showing the follow the white rabbit thing to dick and lauren to explain to them how people were experiencing things now and how you could make those things go together. And it was a really well done version of it. And I wish that you could still do more of that today because it was such an interesting avenue that never really matured. We got to use that technology again, seamless branching technology on the Goonies when we

did the picture in picture commentary with Dick and all the kids. That's another podcast, and that's a great one. Yeah. That was a hell of a – So, Jonathan, this is a huge release for Paul and his group there at Warner Brothers Home Entertainment. I'm sure there was a lot of anxiety as well as excitement about what this was going to do once it hit the market and they're promoting it. Do you recall how well did it do and what was the response from the home video team there at Warner Brothers? And then I'll ask you, Derek, about from the Donners. But first with you,

Jonathan. I mean, there was a lot of expectations, high expectations for it. It was a beloved film. high expectations for it. It was a beloved film. It was really one of the most requested films from the catalog to be re-released and remastered and to do documentaries on. And I remember also when we were doing The Mix, there was a lot of interest from all the home theater magazines back from then that wanted to do stories. And we invited one of the magazines to come and cover us during the mix doing that. And the Warner Publicity team really embraced the opportunity. They saw what was being done with this and how big of a release it was going to be. And we ended up doing a... There was a LaserDisc store in Studio City called Dave's Laser and was kind of like the community hub for lines were out the door and down the block and around

the block. And I think that really kind of impressed upon Dick and Tom just how beloved this film was and the fan base for it that still existed and still clamored for this movie. And that started the groundswell and the ball rolling on the publicity that this release got for Warners and for Dick and Tom. And it was their chance for them to tell the story from their perspective for the first time, which I think was very important to them, their experience there. On the talks and on the commentary. Yeah.

All the studios back then were famous for not releasing the financials on their home video releases. So maybe now we can look it up and see how much it made. But back then, they didn't want to share the profits with the agents and the actors and the talent involved. It was the great gold rush of the DVDvd industry back in that time and studios were making money hand over fist on dvds and releasing the older films and there was a understandably a lot of questions about okay well who who should be participating in all that because dvd didn't exist back in the days when these contracts were all written for filmmakers and actors. It was signed in 76, 77.

The Salkind sold off almost all their rights just to keep on getting money to finance the two films from Warner Brothers. At the end of the day, they only had like some foreign rights and the TV rights, the ABC TV rights, which they pre-sold as well to get the money to finish the films. So, Derek, what was the mood there at the office and Dick's take on just the fan response to that first Superman release? Well, it was actually very interesting because the fan response, I remember the Dave's laser disc, they remembered there was two people brought babies and Dick's not a big baby person. But he was like overcome with people wanted him to meet their baby

because that movie had meant something to them. And I have a picture of him holding a baby and looking, there's an incredulous look on his face, which is like, why would you give me a baby? But also why? Like, and he talked to these people for a long time and they had these conversations. And I remember also the gentleman and Aaron Smolinski, is it, who played the young Kal-El. He was there, and Dick and Tom saw him. And there was such a – that place was packed.

The teenage Clark. Or the baby. The baby. The baby. And they hadn't seen him. And the place was packed. And it really did. Dick never did conventions and things like that.

It was always if he would do a screening, people always wanted to talk to him afterwards and everything. But seeing people line up to come see this. And they would talk about the technical things that were being done on the disc. And they were talking about what they were excited about and which blew his mind like that they would be so interested in the minutiae of what michael and jonathan were doing and i remember leaving that particular event and him being like just sort of bowled over. There was also, I'll be honest, there was a, a bit of, um, melancholy is not the right,

there was, there was a disappointment in, and you guys can speak to this more about there was going to be a feature, like they showed it in a, in a movie theater and still have that silver poster in San Antonio. Yeah. That's where I got that call. And they, they did it, but there was no marketing around the fact that they were releasing the film in the theater.

Six TV ads. And they told me when they were on and they were on TV. And I still have a copy of that TV spot. Dick was, was disappointed because there was such a swell and this was so great and there was such a fan involvement and as he would call it, a want to see. And then they didn't really do a great job

of marketing the San Antonio screening. And then they said, well, we can't justify re-releasing the film because the one theater in San Antonio didn. And then they said, well, we can't justify re-releasing the film because the one theater in San Antonio did great business. And he was, it was that thing of, of, as I was saying, how he could never get too involved because there's such a vulnerability, especially with this movie and with Warner brothers and everything. And so it was, it was another example of the cresting of the mountain. And then what he, I think, would feel of like the Lucy in the football effect of, well, you got me all excited. You got me hooked into this thing

and I'm ready to go push for it. And then you pull it because of that reason. And we could have, you know, and Dick was like, look, I could have been doing ads. We could have been doing spots. We could have pushed. We could have been doing spots. We could have pushed, we could have if all those people that showed up to a laser disc store with their babies knew that this version of the movie was coming out in a theater. Yeah. We can, we can do a good job of getting it out there. To go to the theaters, not just. Oh sure. But his, his point was that if you're going to use the numbers from the

San Antonio screening, you could have done a better job at the San Antonio screening. If you wanted to get bad numbers at a San Antonio screening, then that was the way to do it. Well, guys, I have one more question to kind of wrap up this discussion of the Superman film and the restoration for the DVD. film and the restoration for the DVD. And just for the listeners to know, we will be having another podcast where we talk about Superman 2 and the Richard Donner cut. But just one last question here for

Superman. What are we looking at? 23 years since you worked on this back in 2000? The DVD came out in 1978. on this back in 2000? The DVD. Yes. It came out in 78. So now you're talking. All right. I'm talking about the DVD release.

But what are your thoughts when you look back on that time period and everything and just the response from the fans and everything and just being a part of that? Jonathan? I mean, I can still recall seeing the film in theaters in 78 with my dad. And it was such an indelible moment in my life. And I remember being able to tell Dick that to this day is one of the most cherished memories I felt such an honor and privilege to be attached and to work on this film and to tell the story for it. And it's one of my proudest achievements in my career. I have a signed poster that hung in my office for my entire time at Warner Brothers. And again, it kicked off a multi-year, multi-film relationship with Dick working on his films. And I got to know him really well and Derek from that. And it was just an honor

and privilege to be able to work on this film and to bring the love that I had for the film and infuse that into the content, into the documentaries, into the remastering. And I think that it was, it was just the dream come true. And I'm so, and I'm happy that it resonated and that the fans and Dick and Tom, you know, responded so positively to it. I couldn't have asked for a better response to it. Eric? Oh, I'm, I'm a Remora, you know, swimming with the sharks here. And these two guys, to come in, that was sort of right as I was coming into the orbit and becoming a member of the Donner Mafia, as it's been called. past to be able to understand the trust that Dick had in them and to see what I think as a fan was such a great job that they did. It's such a great piece to keep this movie alive and to tell the story, but also just to josh it up and give it the things that it needed. I think it's a real highlight in the evolution of how movies are presented. Michael?

Okay, so Dick always has spare copies of his posters that when someone comes in or someone special, he'll sign with a silver marker, write something personal to him or her. And I was dating a gal that presented herself to Dick as my fiance, but she was just my girlfriend at the time. But she went around and she got Dick to sign a poster that I have on my wall to this day. And it's the original poster. that I have on my wall to this day. And it's the original poster.

And it says, Michael, you made him fly again. Dick Donald. That says it all. Wow. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. The behind-the-scenes story to Superman one and two is just so compelling. And hearing it from those who knew director Dick Donner and produced the restoration is as good as it gets.

And just a reminder that there will be a second podcast coming soon where we deep dive into the Richard Donner cut. So if you haven't subscribed yet, be sure to do that when you get the chance. For those of you who would like to purchase the new 4K five film Superman box set or the individual 4K release of Superman, there are links in the podcast show notes and on our website at www.theextras.tv. So be sure and check those out. If you're on social media, be sure and follow the show on Facebook or Twitter at The Extras TV or Instagram at The Extras.TV to continue the conversation and to be a part of our community. And you're invited to our Facebook group for fans of Warner Brothers films called Warner Archive and Warner Brothers Catalog Group. So look for that link on the Facebook page or in the podcast show notes.

Until next time, you've been listening to Tim Millard. Stay slightly obsessed. The Extras is a production of Otaku Media, producers of podcasts, behind the scenes extras, and media that connects creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals at www.otakumedia.tv or look for the link in the show notes.