The Extras - Shaft, Enter the Dragon, and The Batman: A Conversation with Michael Stradford

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

My former colleague at Warner Bros and creative executive, Michael Stradford joins the podcast to talk about three iconic films.   We start off with SHAFT (1971) and the impact that film had on him as a 10-year-old boy in Cleveland.  Then we discuss his first memories of watching ENTER THE DRAGON (1973) and his impressions of Bruce Lee. We reflect on the enduring influence of Bruce Lee and how ENTER THE DRAGON revolutionized martial arts films and Hollywood.  We also critique the current Warner Bros 4K release of ENTER THE DRAGON for the 50th anniversary of the film, and what the lack of any new extras says about the current state of physical media at the major studios.  This leads to a discussion of the great work being done by many smaller boutique labels who have stepped into the void by creating exceptional box sets and extras. We then transition to a more positive discussion of the fantastic extras Stradford produced for THE BATMAN (2022) release.  This is a great example of a studio and filmmaker working in tandem to produce over two hours of high-quality extras.  We close with an engaging discussion on Stradford's books on Miles Davis and model Steve Holland, and his newest venture, the graphic novel "Fargo Hell on Wheels." Follow MICHAEL STRADFORD on FacebookLearn more about FARGO: HELL ON WHEELSPurchase links:ENTER THE DRAGON 4KSHAFT 4K (Criterion)THE BATMAN 4KBRUCE LEE: HIS GREATEST HITSBRUCE LEE AT GOLDEN HARVEST (Arrow)To Purchase Michael Stradford's books, visit our websiteThe Sitcom StudyWelcome to the Sitcom Study, where we contemplate the TV shows we grew up with and...Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify The Extras Facebook pageThe Extras Twitter Warner Archive & Warner Bros Catalog GroupOtaku Media produces podcasts, behind-the-scenes extras, and media that connect creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals. www.otakumedia.tv

Hi, I'm film historian and author John Fricke. I've written books about Judy Garland and the Wizard of Oz movie, and you're listening to The Extras. Hello and welcome to The Extras, where we take you behind the scenes of your favorite TV shows, movies, and animation, and they're released on digital, DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K, or your favorite streaming site. I'm Tim Lard, your host. As many of you know, I worked at Warner Brothers for almost 14 years,

and during my time there, I had the chance to work with many talented studio executives. So I always enjoy it when one of them agrees to come on the podcast to talk movies. And since he's a big fan of martial arts and action films, we'll dive into some Bruce Lee, some Shaft maybe, some Batman, and who knows what else. Anyway, I'm very happy to bring on one of my friends and colleagues in the home entertainment group, Michael Stradford. Mike, it's good to finally get you on the podcast. Tim, my pleasure. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. I've been listening to the show and it's an honor to be here. Well, I was trying to remember kind of how long we worked together. It's a bit of a blur, but I started there in about 2007. I was trying to remember when you started there.

I think I was 2016. Okay. Yeah. So we probably worked together, I would say until 21, about five years or so, the last five. And then you've been in the group until just recently. Right. I can't remember all the films you worked on, but I know you worked on a ton of top titles. What were some of the highlights while you were there?

Let's see. The Joker. Joker, right. First Wonder Woman. It was really great working with the director. She was awesome. Lego Batman movie was a really great working and working uh with the director she was awesome lego batman movie was a lot of fun uh aquaman creed the first creed was really cool um did you work on all the creeds no just the first one okay i think after the first creed that was when we transferred over to being a part of theatrical.

And so title shifted around. So that was one of those. Yeah, Live by Night wasn't a great Ben Affleck film, but he was really a good guy to work with. And that was a pleasure. The Unfortunate Shaft movie, but it did yield what I think is a great documentary. So, you know, there, there were some good highlights. And of course, you know, one of my last projects, which is one I'm possibly the most proud of is the Batman version. Yeah. I did want to kind of come back to that so we could talk

a little bit about, you know, why that was such a great project for you and everything. But before we did that, I thought it might be kind of fun for the listeners to get to know you a little bit. I picked up the Black to the Movies book that you did, and it kind of gave me a little insight to some of your early days and how you got interested in film and music and everything. But maybe you could take us back a little bit to kind of how it all started for you back in Cleveland. Yeah. I mean, it's really odd because my parents weren't particularly hardcore movie fans. I mean, they liked movies, but I think in my lifetime, my dad and mom went to two movies. You know, they went to see The Godfather and they went to see Beverly Hills

Cops. So movies just wasn't good for them. But for me, for some reason, movies and comic books, I mean, pop culture really just spoke to me as a kid. And so, you know, once I left Cleveland and finished college in Toledo, I was in radio and I had a broadcasting career for about 12 years. And I wound up in Los Angeles to launch what was then 92.3 The Beat. And I did that for a couple of years. So while I was in LA, you know, I was having an opportunity to really indulge my love of movies because there were so many great bookstores and poster places and collectibles. stores and poster places and collectibles. And so I ultimately, after I left radio and I worked for Quincy Jones for a few years, and when I left Quincy, I went to Warner Brothers briefly as a manager of their archives, the film archives. And that was interesting. But then I went over to Sony, who had a fledgling DVD department, and they were looking for somebody to help figure out how to create special features for Sony DVDs. So I did that with Sony from 98 to 2006. Then I went over to Crackle, and I added up their original programming. We did a lot of short form

content. We did series with Charlie Murphy and Barry Sonnenfeld and a number of other people. And that was cool. And then I came to Warner Brothers. And as opposed to running the department, I was a cog in the wheel and I was happy with that because I didn't want to run a department again. It was nice to just have a set list of titles to work on. You know, when I was at Sony, Warner Brothers was always the crown jewel. You know, anybody that worked in home entertainment always looked to Warner Brothers as kind of the shining star. So it was great to finally get over there and be a part of that for a while.

Yeah, I was very proud to work there. It was always usually number one for just pure volume of sales and the quality of, you know, if you bought a Warner Brothers new release, it was always usually pretty packed. And I think that started with The Matrix, you know, and really what Paul Hemstreet had done with that one and kind of breaking through showing, yeah, if you do the extras right, if you put it on there and the movie is something people want to buy anyway, you'll push them over the edge to say, yes, I'll pay premium to get this package. Yeah. I've always seen the Matrix as a turning point for DVD because I think that was the first DVD where what the format could offer just made sense to a consumer. You know, it wasn't complicated. And I think that just kind of

expanded consumer interest and appreciation in the format. And then that gave us all at all the studios opportunities to really do some cool and sometimes crazy stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a great place to work. And, you know, that's kind of the heyday, the days we were there. The years you were there, too, was like the peak of Blu-ray extras and just really packing out a lot of those titles.

So, but, you know, things are changing a little bit and we'll get to that in just a second. But I did want to skip back to, I think, some things you talked about in your book growing up. And some of I think one of those was just kind of the impact of Shaft when you went to see it. Yeah. Oh, man. I had been going to movies, you know, for several years, even though I was a kid. You know, I would go see James Bond, double features and all that. You know, growing up in a in a lower middle class black neighborhood in Cleveland, Shaft was the first time I had seen somebody on screen that I could actually imagine seeing in the real world. Because prior to Shaft, the only black actors that really had any prominence on screen was Jim Brown and Sidney Poitier, neither of which I could ever imagine seeing in my neighborhood. But Richard Rountree, you know, he just he he just looked like a regular guy and he didn't really have a history with the audience.

So it was easy to just buy into that world. And he was so cool and he was so tough and he just had it together. And I had never seen that on screen before like that without him being – because Jim Brown to me was always kind of a superhuman. I love Jim Brown, but he was coming down from Mount Olympus. And Sidney Poitier was so proper and cut and dry that that didn't really seem realistic to me. But Richard Roundtree as Shaft, I was like, yeah, I could imagine seeing this guy coming out of my dad's deli, you know. And so that movie and the leather suit at the end

and that, you know, and the great soundtrack by Isaac Hayes. I mean, that was just always a monumental movie for me. And when I finally got to meet Richard Roundtree, it was a big thrill. And it couldn't have been nicer. I was watching the documentary you did with Constantine Nasser, friend of the podcast here, our mutual friend. And I was just watching it the other night, you know, and catching up on it. And that's on the Criterion release. Right. Looked like on there you guys were able to interview Samuel L. Jackson.

I mean, a bunch of great people for that one. That must have been kind of fun. Yeah, it was. You know, I mean, it was unfortunate that, you know, a number of key players are no longer with us, like Director Gordon Parks and Isaac Hayes. But, you know, Richard Rountree, who has kind of struggled with his association with Shaft over the years, it seems like we caught him at a time where he had kind of mellowed into an appreciation for what the character had done for him and what it meant to so many other people. So it was great to get his perspective and get his memories

because the one thing that I wanted to do was make sure that we capture an official document of the making of that film by people that were involved with the film. So to have him and Isaac Hayes' son, and to have guys like Samuel L. Jackson, who had a perspective, to have them all add that in, it was just really, it was really satisfying. I was really happy because I wasn't, to be honest, I was never excited about this movie, this 2018 or 2019 version. But I felt like, okay, if anybody's going to do anything with this thing, I need to be the one to do it because I knew that I could come up with a documentary that would honor the original trilogy. And Constantine, you know, I know his level of commitment and his taste and his ability. So I knew that if we could do that together,

we could come up with something that we'd both be proud of. And I think we did. Yeah. And one thing I've noticed about your reviews, whether they be in your book or whether they be the stuff you post on Facebook, is you're not afraid to say, I don't like this version or, you know, to be somewhat blunt, you know, but you're always putting in the context of the film history because you have all of that and you're giving some reason why it doesn't match up or whatever. But that's okay. I mean, I think you and I are similar in that we still want to go see these movies. We still want to see the new versions of things. And it's fun to have that background where you can put a little judgment on it. Not saying it's bad for everybody, but just, hey, based on what I've seen and what I know, this is kind of where I see it fitting and everything. And it's really fun to read what

you have to say, being so knowledgeable about this stuff. But I think one of the reasons why I want to ask about Shaft, and it's not just your book and being in Cleveland, but also Bruce Lee and Enter the Dragon, which we're going to be talking about here. I mean, Shaft comes out in what, 71? Right. And then Enter the Dragon comes out just a couple of years later. So that, you said, also had just a huge impact. So these two movies probably pretty close together.

Yeah. Impact on you as a young film viewer. impact on you as a young film viewer? Well, you know, the funny thing about Shaft was I was on under a year long punishment from going to the movies because I had gone to see a double feature of You Only Live Twice and Thunderball. And me and my buddies stayed and watched it three times. I didn't get home until like two in the morning and I was like 10 years old. Oh, wow. My parents were like, forget going to the movies ever for the rest of your life. So that held up for about a year. And when Shaft came out, everybody was talking about Shaft and had seen Shaft with me, you

know. And so my mother finally, even though it was an R-rated film, my mother relented and let me see it. And, you know, it just wiped me out. It just wiped me out. But if we jump to Enter the Dragon, I was in Atlantic City with my parents on vacation. And they were off doing whatever they were going to do. So I said, I'd go see a movie.

So I remember walking down the street in Atlantic City. to do. So I said, I'd go see a movie. So I remember walking down the street in Atlantic City. One side of the street was showing White Lightning with Burt Reynolds. And the side of the street that I was on was showing Cleopatra Jones. And I said, I'll go see Cleopatra Jones. So I buy my ticket. I'm walking through the lobby. I'll never forget this. And there are three pictures, three black and white pictures. There's a white guy in a gi. There's a black guy with a big afro and a gi. And in the center, there's a shirtless guy with these scars on his chest and his stomach and his face. And it said, Enter the Dragon. I was like, what the heck is this? So I sit down to watch Cleopatra Jones and they show the trailer for Enter the Dragon and I lost my mind. Because at that point, I'd only seen one

Kung Fu movie and it wasn't very memorable. So we get back from Atlantic City. We're back in Cleveland. I see my buddy Ricky that lives across the street. I was like, man, I just saw this trailer for this guy, Bruce Lee, blah, blah, blah. And they're showing two of his movies downtown. I'm going to go see him tomorrow, Chinese Connection and Fist of Fury. He said, oh, yeah, yeah, the guy that played Kato, he died. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm like, this guy didn't play Kato. He's got a new movie coming out. He's like, no, he played Kato. He said, I saved the clipping when I saw his death. So he went in the house and brought out this clipping and it had a picture of Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon and it had his obituary. And I was just stunned. I was like, what? What?

You know, I didn't even know how to process it. And then I saw the double feature and, you know, it was like, this is cool, but this isn't what I saw in this Enter the Dragon trailer. But Bruce Lee's obviously awesome. And then Enter the Dragon came out a couple weeks later, and I went and saw it. And it was just, man, it was, I've never had a movie-going experience where the crowd was just out of control. I mean, the theater was so packed that when I got there, the only seats left were on the stairs, on the sideways, on the side. If the fire marshal came in, they would have shut the theater down. But every time, and this was an all-black theater, the theater called the Scrumpy Dump. And man, every time the camera hit Bruce Lee, the crowd was going crazy. I mean,

every motion he'd make when they cut to him at the cemetery, when he goes to see his sister in his mother's grave, and he's got the beautiful three-piece suit on, the girls were hollering and screaming. I mean, it was just, it was outrageous. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Hi, this is Tim Millard, host of The Extras Podcast. And I wanted to let you know that we have a new private Facebook group for fans of the Warner Archive and Warner Brothers catalog physical media releases. So if that interests you, you can find the link on our Facebook page or look for the link in the podcast show notes.

Yeah. And I was rewatching it and I was just thinking, you know, we've all seen the still pictures, right? Of Bruce shirtless and everything. But when you're watching the movie and you just see his, you know, him moving like his body especially the upper body you know they show it off i'm like that is that that lean marsharts look i mean you can just see it's not it's not the american bodybuilder you know thing right just so lean and and flexibility he's showing off his flexibility and i don't know it's very cool and i think that i mean i know you're a huge fan of martial arts movies but you look at modern stuff now and you just know they've taken out a lot of wires and they've done all this other

stuff and then you watch into the drag and you're like um i mean you know he's he's pulling punches and kicks and all that stuff but that's's all real. That's all happened. He's doing that. Well, the crazy thing about Bruce Lee was that he slowed down for the most part because when he would go at full speed, the camera couldn't capture it, you know? But, you know, going back to what you said about his physique, I had never seen anybody with that kind of definition in their physique before. You know, I've seen guys that were big and muscular,

but the definition in the shoulder and arms, and I just had never seen anything like that before. Yeah, I mean, that was groundbreaking. And obviously the moves and his, I don't know, there's a certain real beauty almost to like his movement. Yeah. And how he choreographed everything. Well, he was 5'7", about 140 pounds. And he just clearly had complete body control.

But beyond that, when you mention some of the other martial artists, I still think Bruce Lee is the only guy that was eminently watchable and compelling when he wasn't doing anything. that was eminently watchable and compelling when he wasn't doing anything. You know, I mean, he just has such a charisma and he has such life in his eyes that, you know, you were just drawn to what is he going to do next, even if he's not doing anything. And I can't think of any other martial artists that really have that same effect without them trying to subtly apply some of what Bruce Lee did. Right. Well, looking back at it, this is a 50th year anniversary, which is pretty cool. It's also kind of, wow, it doesn't feel maybe like 50, but when you look back and you think about the impact

that he's had, I mean, what are some thoughts that come to mind for you? Because I know I saw your post. You wrote this very beautiful post on Facebook on how important Bruce Lee and this movie is to you. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think for anything to last 50 years is an accomplishment in itself. And then to actually grow during the 50 years, you know, speaks to the quality of what it is. But Enter the Dragon is just, it's so, it's special to me just because I had just never seen anything like that. And it kind of culminated my love of movies into that one film. It's like the best experience I could ever have in a movie I had at that film. But, you know, Enter the Dragons just got so much impact in that it was the first

time that Hollywood financed and produced a martial arts movie. Biggest budget up to that point that any martial arts movie had ever had. And they really took a big chance to say, okay, we're going to go with this Asian guy who's had two Asian hits, and we're essentially going to make him James Bond. And we're going to build this movie around him. And we're going to make sure that the audience knows that he's attractive. Not only is he formidable, he's sexy, you know, that he's powerful, you know, because that just hadn't been seen. That just hadn't been seen on screen. You know, when you think about it, like in 1973, we're in the midst of the blaxploitation era, you know, Shaft and Superfly and the Mac and Black Caesar and all these things. And Kung Fu Cinema's, you know is starting to make little inroads. But man, when Bruce Lee

hit, Black audiences connected with him like nobody's business. And I'm not sure exactly what it was about him that made that connection so strong, but it was. And it was one of those things where when I was just jumping back a minute, when I was programming the beat, When I was just jumping back a minute, when I was programming the beat, Brandon Lee was in Los Angeles to promote Rapid Fire, which was his first film for Fox. And he was doing a meet and greet at the Shrine downtown during this comic book show. So I went down and I met his manager and I invited him to come to the radio station to do our morning show. And our morning drive host at the time was a white guy named John London. He was in his mid-late 40s. And John's contract called for him to have complete control of his show. And so I went and I said, hey, I talked to Brandon Lee.

I want you to put him on the morning show. And he's like, ah, Brandon Lee. He's like, Mike, you know, that's not really our audience. I'm like, this is where this is the part of our audience that you don't know. Because when you say you're putting Bruce Lee's son on the radio, you won't understand what's going to happen. Just trust me. So Brandon came down, John put him on the radio and he had, he had promoted the day before that Brandon was going to be there. People came to the radio station. People were calling. John got more calls during that show

than he ever got. And it was people, largely black people saying, yo, man, good luck. I love your dad. Your dad was the man. I saw your dad when I was a kid. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, dad was the man. I saw your dad when I was a kid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, even years later, the love that that audience had for Bruce Lee carried over to his son, who was just getting started. You know, he could have been a bust, but there was such goodwill because of how people felt about his father that folks were calling in and coming to the station to try to support him. That's an amazing story. But I was also thinking, as you were saying that, that a lot of the last images we've seen, you know, you watch the movie and then I think a lot of people didn't know he died, of course, for many years. And still, even today, people who discover the movie don't know

the full story. But then a lot of the last images that you see of Bruce Lee are him holding his two babies and his family. And you see his movies and you hear about his philosophy on life and you see his family, like you just see his values kind of system. And then that's it. His life's taken from him. Yeah.

And then years later you see these kids growing up and I don't know, you kind of naturally have this fondness. Like you really want, wanted him, as you just said, the audience really just wanted his son to succeed too. Kind of carry on that man on. Of course that was really, you know, very tough then when he was, you know, killed on set of the film of the crow, but it's a tragic story, but going back a little bit to Bruce Lee's philosophy on life, I thought you had said also just, just kind of how that also has helped his legacy. It's not just the movies.

It's kind of what, what do you represent it as a person? Yeah. I think, you know, one of, one of the great things about Bruce Lee was that, you know, his widow and his daughter have really been committed to making sure that he endured and that his legacy was acknowledged and that people got an understanding that he was more than just what you saw on the screen. You know, he was a writer. He was a philosopher.

I've seen photos of his library, and he had a massive library with all types of books, you know, a lot of philosophy books, in addition to different fighting manuals and that kind of thing. But he was somebody that gave particularly Asian people such pride and such a shining light to reach for. And Shannon, his daughter, and Linda Cadwell, his widow, they've done a magnificent job of just letting people know this is who he was and this is what he believed. And the fact that when he started teaching martial arts, the Asian martial artists in San Francisco told him, don't teach it to non-Asians. And he said, well, you know, we're all the same. I think he said under one sky, we're all the same. And so the first person that he taught martial arts was a black guy. So he wasn't hung up in the things that unfortunately we seem to be more hung

up in now than we have been in quite a few years. And I think that there's just so much to him that it's, it's actually kind of stunning to me. I've got a good friend that lives in New York and we've been friends for like 40 years and we bonded on End of the Dragon and we were always talking about Bruce Lee and we were just saying, man, remember like in the late 70s and early 80s, Bruce Lee was kind of culty. You know, it's like if you weren't in the martial arts movies, you didn't know who Bruce Lee was. You didn't really care. And people just

thought of him as a guy that was running around hollering with his shirt off. But, you know, over the last 20 years, it's just become more. And I think part of it started when Time magazine named him one of the most 100 influential people of the 20th century. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I think that caused a lot of reconsidering who he was and what his impact was. And there's a program on Max called Warrior. They just concluded the third season this week. And it's based on a concept that Bruce Lee had that he had pitched to television networks and they passed on it. They ultimately made Kung Fu.

But this series, Shannon Lee is one of the executive producers, and Jonathan Tropper is the showrunner and executive producer, and he's made some really good television shows. And Warrior is a great show that's about an Asian guy that comes to San Francisco in the early 20th century looking for his sister who had vanished. And it gets into the, I mean, there's a lot of fighting, a lot of action, but it gets into the oppression of the Chinese in America in the early of 20th century, the oppression of the Irish and the Irish with their issues with the Chinese and not really realizing that they're kind of dealing, all dealing with the same thing.

And the oppression that more traditional government is trying to keep them under. And they do a really good podcast where every week they talk to the different actors, writers, directors on the show. actors, writers, directors on the show. And each one, each episode, and it's unprovoked, these people talk about how Bruce Lee impacted them personally and what he's meant to them and how it's so important to them to represent his vision the correct way and how he provided a sense of empowerment and worth in projecting that image on screen that they had never seen before. And to hear that over and over and over and over and over, you know, from these filmmakers just really speaks to the depth and the impact that he had, probably a larger impact than he ever imagined that he would have, you know? Right. Yeah. I'll just throw in that Justin Lin, I believe, is also part of the producing team on

that. Younger listeners might, of course, know Justin. So that's a pretty cool tradition that Justin wants, you know, wants to be a part of is continuing that legacy of Bruce Lee. And you did, you did kind of mention, you know, in passing about the networks went with Kung Fu, where they decided not to put an Asian in the role to go with Carradine. And I remember growing up and I really enjoyed that series. So, you know, we can all look back and make judgments, but it was a good series of its time and great to see now that Warrior is doing well on Max. So those folks who don't know about it, I hope they'll check it out and give it a shot.

I did want to ask what your thoughts were on just the film kind of industry that Enter the Dragon has had. I mean, many filmmakers have talked about the impact, of course, of Hong Kong cinema and then Bruce Lee. have talked about the impact, of course, of Hong Kong cinema and then Bruce Lee. Yeah, well, you know, like I mentioned, it was the first martial arts film to be produced and financed by a major studio. Warner Brothers too, right? Yeah, Warner Brothers in partnership with Golden Harvest. And I believe it was the first martial arts tournament movie. I could be wrong, but I feel pretty sure that that was the first one. I know it was

in terms of a major motion picture. Most of the martial arts flicks that follow weren't very good, but a lot of more moneymakers. Bruce Lee even spawned his own sub-genre, Bruceploitation, Bruce-ploitation, where there are so many Bruce Lee, Bruce Lai, Bruce L automatically being a houseboy or a femme fatale, dragon lady, those days were over. 50 years later, I don't think there would have been a warrior TV show that got three seasons and a revamped kung fu series with a young Asian American female lead, you know, without Enter the Dragon. Because if Enter the Dragon had not worked, no other Hollywood studio would have rolled the dice to try to make another one because it was something that one, they weren't interested in, two, they didn't understand, and three, they probably didn't believe in. So, you know, there was a lot riding on the shoulders of Ben of the Dragon.

And I think a lot of the top movies from John Wick coming out this year, a lot of the top most popular action movies use martial arts. I mean, as their fighting technique, not all of them, of course, but, I mean, just look at Keanu, obviously going back to the Matrix and the use of the wire work and the Hong Kong stunt teams and everything that they brought over, but you just see the impact. I'm not saying it all started then,

but, you know, you can point to that movie as just a huge influence. Yeah, but I mean, the director of John Wick, Chad, I can never say Chad's last name right. He clearly said on John Wick 2, that mirror sequence at the end was his homage to the mirror sequence from End of the Dragon. So, you know, he's never had any hesitation about crediting Bruce Lee as an influence and as somebody that he continues to aspire to. And you take that and you flip it with Quentin Tarantino, it's like,

I don't understand what Tarantino's issue is with Bruce Lee. I would have thought that he'd be a fan of Bruce Lee's, but it seems like over the last few years, he's kind of gone out of his way to try to denigrate Bruce Lee. Oh, really? over the last few years, he's kind of gone out of his way to try to denigrate Bruce Lee. Oh, really? It seems like it. You know, from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, the way he had Bruce Lee kind of like a clown. And actually, as written, the Brad Pitt character was supposed to beat Bruce Lee in their face-off. And Brad Pitt said, no, man, that's Bruce Lee. I'm not doing, that's not happening. That's just not happening. So thankfully, Brad Pitt had enough regard for Bruce Lee that

they shot it the way that they shot it. And I didn't expect that scene. I was going into the movie expecting to hate that scene because I had heard what it was. When I saw it, it was a lot of fun. And I thought Mike Moak, who played Bruce Lee, did a great job. You know, he didn't really look like him. He caught Bruce Lee's vibe. You know, he just really had it. And I had a chance to meet him last summer. And I told him, man, I loved almost everything about what you did with Bruce Lee.

He said, let me guess. The one thing you didn't like was the haircut. I'm like, exactly. He said, I argue with Tarantino because this part was supposed to be set in the 60s. And, you know, Bruce Lee had much shorter hair. And he insisted on the end of the dragon hair because he said nobody would know who Bruce Lee was without the hair. So, you know.

Right. What did you think of the movie overall? It's probably my favorite Tarantino film. I was going to say, I really enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I've got a lot of issues with him, but I thought that was a hell of a film. Yeah. I've always been a Brad Pitt guy, so I thought he knocked it out of the park. I thought he and DiCaprio had great chemistry. You know, I thought it was a really good movie. Oh, yeah. I'm a big fan of those two as well. I mean, I feel like I grew up with those guys, you know, being the stars.

And so, I mean, I still remember when I watched What's Eating Gilbert Grape and I'm like, who is this kid? Yeah. I mean, this kid actor is so good, you know. Now he's almost 50. DiCaprio is so young and you could just tell this kid's got it. Wow. But you know, one other thing I wanted to mention about Enter the Dragon before I forget.

Without Bruce Lee, it would not have been the same film. You know, his charisma was on a level of James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Steve McQueen. I mean, he was one of the great movie stars. You know, he just didn't get a chance to shine beyond the few films that he did. But you could put anybody else in that movie and you might have an OK movie. But so much of that movie was just the presence and charisma of Bruce Lee. We were talking about Shaft, talking about Bruce in Into the Dragon. And I guess it was as I was thinking about some of the stuff you'd worked on in movies we had talked about that I started to see how they were both really breakthroughs for their ethnic groups. And I know you're also, you know, similar to me, big James Bond fan.

They took that and did their own twist on it. And I don't know if that was conscious, but we know MGM was releasing James Bond, right? And they released Shaft. And then Warner Brothers is probably looking like, you know, what's our Asian Shaft or something. I mean, there's things like that do happen in conversations. How can we touch an ethnic group and how do we, how do we kind of hit that formula? And, and the fact that they both did within a couple of years of each other, two different ethnic groups, but ones that, as you just said, they crossed in terms of their interest level. Yeah. Asian and the black market and everything, you know. Well, you know, the first, the shaft poster, the caption said, hotter than Bond, cooler than Bullock.

Right, right, right. You know, so they were making the direct connection. Right. Two terrific franchises and movies, obviously. So, yeah, that's a great marketing. franchises and movies, obviously. So yeah, that's a great marketing. And I was, I don't know, in one of the documentaries I was watching, they, you know, they used a black marketing group to, to come up with that marketing and they knew how to do it. Right. Because you're like, what? But that was perfect, perfect marketing. So, hey, let's talk, we both come from the home

entertainment industry a little, put it on a little critical hat on this release that Warner Brothers did of the 4K. And then also, I think you mentioned one that came out from Arrow. And I also have the one from Criterion from 2020, which still holds up very, very well because it's just so packed with the different films. But let me give the positive here first. I watched the Warner Brothers 4k and because they went back to the original 35 millimeter camera negative, I mean the color reproduction, it is stunning to look at. It looks terrific. You've never seen it look better than that. Just for that alone, if fans are building out a 4K library, I say you probably got to buy it just for that if you enjoy watching the film. And it has the original theatrical version as well as the special edition.

But the only extra on there is the commentary. So I know you kind of gave it a little thrashing because of that. Talk a little bit about maybe your disappointment that there's not more there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it was heartbreaking. I mean, it wasn't just disappointing. It was heartbreaking because this is my favorite movie of all time. To be clear, I'm not saying it's the best movie I've ever seen, but it's my favorite movie of all time. my favorite movie of all time. And I was really excited about potentially being able to do something that could acknowledge the 50th anniversary. And I pitched some concepts

to home entertainment and for whatever reason, they decided not to do it, which is, you know, they're right. But to not do anything is really disappointing. And it's really kind of a slap in the face to the fans who bought this movie over and over and over in every iteration that it's been released in. And to your point, if you're building a 4K library and you like this movie, the 4K version definitely should be in your collection. this movie, the 4K version definitely should be in your collection. But to spend whatever the charge is for the big box set that they just released, when all of that material has been previously released, just to me isn't the best use of my money. But it's really disappointing because, you know, Enter the Dragon made, I think it cost a half million dollars to make. When it was theatrically released, it made between 21 and 25 million dollars, as in 73,

right? If you convert those dollars, that's like between 144 to 171 million dollars today. And then I was reading that it's been released several times since then, when you include the re-releases, the profits from global distribution, the all-time worldwide gross for Enter the Dragon for Warner Brothers is conservatively $2 billion. Wow. So for a movie that's made the company that much money to not be regarded the same type of concern and care that they would give to The Wizard of Oz, that they would give to Casablanca, it's just really disappointing and there's no real excuse for it. And, you know, there are only a few people left from the film that are still alive and healthy. a few people left from the film that are still alive and healthy. And so to not have anything from Angela Mayo, who played Bruce Lee's sister, or Jackie Chan, whose neck was broken by Bruce Lee

in Enter the Dragon, or Sammo Hung, who was the first person Bruce Lee fought at the opening of Enter the Dragon. You know, these people are alive and well. You know, it would have been great to have anything from them. And when you couple that with the release that Errol just did a couple weeks before this 4K event of the dragon, it's really shameful because the Errol release is unbelievable. They did 4K releases of Bruce Lee's Golden Harvest films, Fist of Fury, The Big Boss, Way of the Dragon, several versions of Game of Death. All of them are packed with special features. There's a 200-page hardcover book. There's posters. There's stills. There's a beautiful design box. I mean, the small company out of London paid more tribute to Bruce Lee on the 50th anniversary of his death than the studio that made the most famous martial arts movie of all time could be bothered to do. I mean, it's just,

it's generally when I post stuff, I generally try to be really positive and I try to be constructive. And if there's something that I don't like, you know, I really try to personalize it because just because I didn't like something doesn't mean that you won't like it. But with this, it was just hard. It was hard to find that constructive, that constructive way to critique this 4K. And the best thing I could say, I think you already said, is it looks better than it ever has. And, you know, maybe when we get to the 75th anniversary, if anybody's around, somebody will do something better than the 50th. Because, you know, to try to do something on the 60th, what does it really matter? Well, it's a missed opportunity.

I guess that's all you can really say. Having said that it's a missed opportunity, I did look at the charts. It debuted number three in the nation for sales for 4K behind Fast X and another like recent release. And I was like, okay, that's not bad numbers. Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3, that was number two. That's not bad. But I actually think that it could probably have been close to vying for the top spot in 4K if they had added another bonus disc or at least had one new piece, you knowating the 50s something something about that so yeah and one of the things that they just weren't connecting the dots to was even if you

only do one new piece that one new piece gives you your publicity department a hook right so when they go out to try to get people to pay attention to the umpteenth release of end of the dragon you've got this new piece of content that's a new angle and and maybe entertainment weekly who wasn't interested before would say oh okay well this is this is interesting cool let's do this but didn't happen so here we are yeah i mean it's the studios it's an interesting time and this kind of leads us a little bit into the discussion of you know maybe the state of physical media and even the future of it, which I did want to ask you about, because you've seen the gamut. Is it a sign of just where the priorities are of the studio that a movie this important in the 100th year of the studio? And it's a 50-year anniversary. So half of the studio's history, you know, we're talking about is covered in the anniversary for this film that they just didn't put the money behind. I think it's a sign that the people running the studios now aren't movie people.

They're business people. And movies are product. And they aren't much more than product. And so they're treated like product, just like if they were running the company that made Ivory Soap. So I think the difference is back during the heyday of DVD, you had guys who ran studios that loved movies, that knew movies, that knew the history of movies.

You had owners that were passionate about the legacy of the studios, you know, wanted to continue to build on those things. And everybody's interested in profit and loss. You know, you don't want to make movies to lose money. But I think there was more risk on creative ventures, you know, things that just spoke to someone. Whereas now, it seems like if it doesn't speak clearly to that bottom line, they just aren't really interested. And I think, to me, the way it looked for Enter the Dragon, it felt like, okay, well, we don't need to do this, so we aren't going to do it. And so they didn't do it. And not that it matters to Warner Brothers, And so they didn't do it. And not that it matters to Warner Brothers, but, you know, on a number of forums on social media, they're getting beat down on the movies beyond what they can bring to the coffers,

you know, it's going to continue to kind of disintegrate, you know. I mean, and I think that ties into part of what the actors are fighting to get movies made without having to engage actors beyond what they absolutely have to do. So I think we're hopefully we're in a transitory period that will not wind up being as dire as it seems to feel right now. Yeah, let's hope so. Well, let's go a little more positive here. Go back to the last big project you worked on, which I think is a great example of when the studios put their money and their muscle behind the release. And that's the Batman, which you mentioned earlier. Batman is the one superhero character that I think next to Superman, those two stand out in terms of the money they just make for the studio and the interest with the fans. But talk a little bit about that and your experiences on that, because I know that was a great experience for you.

So talk a little bit about that and your experiences on that, because I know that was a great experience for you. Yeah, the Batman was was really special to me. I mean, there was a point where our boss asked us to list three titles that we'd be OK with giving up and three titles that we want to keep because we had just merged the merge the departments. And I told her, look, I just want Batman and Black Adam, and I don't really care about the rest. You can do whatever you want with the rest. Black Adam wound up being disappointed. But I had been following Matt Reeves, and just the way he was talking about Batman was really compelling to me. So when I met with his producer, Dylan, he said, look, we're taking a totally different approach on Batman. And it's really important that the behind the scenes material reflects the style that we're taking.

So we don't want to do standard cookie cutter, HBO first look types of thing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not what our movie is. first look types of thing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not what our movie is. And that was great for me because it allowed me to go outside of the principle two or three vendors that the studio would lean towards for a big franchise or superhero films. So I went to a vendor named Sunny Boy that had done all the Conjuring horror movies for us, and they did a great us. And they did a great job. And they're big comic book fans and really passionate and young, hungry guys. And I worked with them. We put together this pitch and presented it to Matt Reeves and Dylan,

and they loved it. They really liked the approach that we took. And that was really so empowering and so exciting because it was off the beaten path. It was definitely a different type of approach. And so they gave us complete access. I went over to London while we were shooting. I got to go, got to walk around the Batcave, which was unbelievable. And I went to the garage where they had all the Batmobiles that they were still building. And it was just a great experience. And then I think the week after I got back, COVID hit and everything was shut down for a while. But we did a lot of different pieces. We actually won two Clio Awards, one for this piece we did,

The Transformation, The Penguins, about Colin Farrell, and the comprehensive documentary we did called Vengeance in the Making. And it just turned out, it's one of those projects that turned out for me exactly the way I had envisioned it. And Sunny Boy did an amazing job, and their stock has risen. So I think they did the aquaman sequel and uh they're working on some other large large large films and that was a result of them being given a shot to handle something as big as the batman and really knocking it out of the park well i'm a big fan of

the film and i have the 4k of the film and all the extras. Vengeance in the making. I mean, what can you say? That is top-notch studio-level extra right there. And when I say that, I mean, from the filming, the shots, the lighting, everything for on set. Used to be way back in the day. You took anything from behind the scenes. It could be grainy.

It could be, you know, the interview could be with loud generators in the background. I mean, you're just going to take it because that's all you got. Watching that piece, it's lit so beautifully. The Onset guys did a terrific job. I love the interviews you guys have in the stage. You got some of the cars in the background for some of the cast. I mean, it's just top-notch. So it looks great, sounds great. The coverage is amazing. Matt Reeves' storyline of just everything from his development, how he saw the detective story. I'm from Seattle. So when he mentioned kind of the influence of Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, I'm like, you know, I'm all about that because I

grew up during that era in Seattle there. So, I mean, literally Cobain grew up 30 miles from where I grew up. So, but to hear that influence and everything, and then to put it together with what I saw in the movie, that's what I love about extras. When you watch a movie, you're like, I don't know why I loved it, but that was awesome. Then you watch these extras and you're like, that's why I loved it. He's pulling from references, from popular culture, from life, from music, from sports, from whatever it might be, right? From film history. And then you start to connect the dots. And then of course, there's those pieces that show you the literal technology advances.

Like they're talking about how they lit that, the romance scenes, I guess you would call it. What that lighting was with, I mean, I thought they were on an actual rooftop looking over city. Right, right. That amazing technology that they used. So I've always felt that the quality of the special features will give you a good idea of the level of involvement and interest that the director had. Because the more engaged the director is, the better your content is going to be. is, the better your content is going to be. And Matt Reeves, you know, he opened every door for us. We filmed his EPK interview. It was supposed to be 40 minutes. It was three hours. And then when he finished that, he said, so should we, do you want to record an audio commentary? It's like,

do you have more to say? He's like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. And he gave us an incredible commentary, you know. So it's like the filmmakers, they get it. They see that extras provide an opportunity to historically document the creation of their film. You know, you have a shot at getting something really special. You know, other guys, you know, for some directors, it's just a job. They're just trying to do it. It's not necessarily a passion project. They needed the work, so they do it. And you get a perfunfeld was so excited that there was an opportunity to be able to archive the making of that film. He just gave us everything. And over and over and over, particularly younger filmmakers, they seem to really value it. So now, as the studios are starting to de-emphasize, and I'm not trying to

be negative. I'm sorry to go back. But as the studios seem to be de-emphasize, and I'm not trying to be negative. I'm sorry to go back. But as a studio seem to be de-emphasizing special features, I think it can have an unnecessarily adverse effect on their relationship with their filmmakers. Because their filmmakers, you know, they're proud of their work and they want to be able for people to see how they made the magic. And they want to be able to show their kids later on when you were four years old, this is what I was doing. This is why I couldn't spend as much time with you as I wanted to, you know? Yeah. And I just recall the joy that filmmakers had when they got their box of Blu-rays and they're like, when are they, somebody from their office invariably calls, Hey, when are we getting,'re like, when are they coming? Somebody from their office invariably calls,

Hey, when are we getting, you know, when are we getting our supply of, uh, of Blu-rays of the film? Because, you know, some go to the crew department heads and some go to the filmmaker. I mean, that's Christmas gifts, man. That's, that's like, this is the, it's going out to all their friends and family. And what are they going to do now in the future? They're going to be like, here's a link to the streaming. I mean, having the physical media, there was some just like amazingly great thing. I mean, you're, you're, uh, uh, we'll talk about a few of your books too, but holding a book, holding a Blu-ray or 4k or DVD, just that physical thing, giving it to somebody, signing it. I mean, there's something very cool. Unwrapping it, putting it in, playing that thing and seeing the quality.

I mean, the quality is pretty good in streaming. Don't get me wrong. But what you're not getting is you're just getting the movie. And if you have extras, a lot of times there'll be a little bonus or extras. Very few times do those pieces hold up as anything more than just like a promo yeah you're like i already watched the movie you don't have to sell me i'm going to watch the movie right not what i watched and not just tell me why i want to go see it so um yeah i mean we'll see it's you know you know that if matt spent that much time, when he got his product, he's like, you know, big smile.

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, thank goodness for these smaller companies like Impact and Indicator and Criterion and 88 Films, you know, that there are these smaller companies that still see value in physical media. They still see value in special features. They license, you know, really cool movies and they find great things to create impressive supplements for. So it still exists. You know, it's just unfortunate that right now that the studios aren't as committed to that kind of work as these indies are. But, you know, with the passion that these indies are showing for projects like this, it's still a good time to be a physical collector.

Yeah, that box looks terrific. Now, it doesn't include Enter the Dragon, though, because they didn't license it. Well, it includes the Blu-ray. The Blu-ray. Oh, OK. Yeah, it includes the Blu-ray. Which is what criterion released as well right okay yeah no yeah i mean that does appear to be some of what uh what fans are going to have to do for the hardcore collectors is to see which of these boutique

companies is is coming out with maybe something different or unique or you know maybe it's an extra maybe maybe it's in the packaging or some poster or cards or other things that are in there. But the one exception, of course, and we highlight it here on this podcast is the Warner Archive, which is tasked with releasing that catalog from Warner Brothers and MGM and RKO on Blu-ray. So that's why we talk so much here on this podcast about the Warner Archive, because that's coming from within a studio and that's unique. There's really no other studio that's doing that. They're basically licensing out their product to these others.

So that's a unique and great thing about the Warner Archive. So, hey, before we wrap up here, it's been a great conversation. You and I overlap a lot of our interests, but I did want to talk about these very cool books you've been putting out. I know you had the Miles Davis one you started with. Tell us a little about the books and how you got into that. Well, I got into Miles Davis when I was working digging into his history, you know, particularly in the 50s and 60s, Miles Davis was fly.

I mean, he was so stylish and he was generally regarded as one of the best-dressed men of the 20th century. And I'd read a lot of books on him and these books would always talk about his fashion sense, but that's all it would really be was a mention. And there were some amazing photos of him captured by great photographers like William Claxton and Jim Marshall during that period. And I just thought it'd be an interesting project to do a book on his style. And so the idea was originally for it to be a coffee table book, but the cost to license the photos was really prohibitive. So I just kind of put it aside for a while. But I had done so many great interviews

with Quincy Jones, with two of Miles's three wives, with his bandmates, with Brian Ferry, with Lenny Kravitz, with all these people that have been influenced by him. And they talked about it from a perspective that people hadn't experienced before. I just thought that I'm like, well, these interviews are cool. So I should still get this book out there somehow. So I just did some research on self-publishing and self-published it. And it was fun. It was a good experience. I guess I got some really nice response and some criticism because it wasn't a coffee table book. But, you know, I couldn't help that. And then I wrote Black to the Movies was kind of a compilation of reviews that I've written over the years and some different essays that I've written on some different blogs that I had.

So it's just kind of a compilation of of career post-radio. And that was fun. And then I wrote several books on Steve Holland, who was a model for paperbacks and magazines and comic books in the 60s through the 80s. He was such an overwhelming presence during that time. I mean, he was on the cover of literally thousands of paperbacks and thousands of magazines and thousands of comic book covers. And the guy just worked all the time. And he just had a really interesting story. So I've done a few books on him and that was fun. And that led me to this latest project I'm working on producing a graphic novel called Fargo Hell on Wheels. It's from a series of paperbacks from the 70s of a character called Neil Fargo that was based on a Lee Marvin character from a great Western called Professionals. and I got the rights to the paperback series and Howard Chaykin, who's a good friend of mine, he's going to do the adaptation.

He's going to write and draw the graphic novel and we're going to launch a crowdfunding campaign in October. And we have a pre-launch page up now if anybody would like to get more information. It's zoop, Z-O-O it's zoop.gg slash C slash Fargo. That's kind of crazy, but that's what it is. But that will give you information on the property, a link to a video that we launched at San Diego Comic-Con. And, you know, we'll see what happens.

It's a new adventure. So I'm excited to see how it plays out. To make it easy for the listeners and everybody, I'll put the link in the podcast show notes as well. And people can follow you on Facebook. They can follow your page and your updates. So we'll make it easy for everybody to do that. I know I've signed up for, so that I, I think this project sounds pretty cool.

And I'm a big fan of graphic novels myself. So it's something, you know, right down my alley. So I'm looking forward to that. And I'm a big fan of you because of all of the creative stuff you have done in your past and done. And when we were working together, I always enjoyed hearing what you were working on and because of all of the creative stuff you have done in your past and done. And when we were working together, I always enjoyed hearing what you were working on and just some of the cool stuff.

It was always great. So it was fun, man, having you come on. We may have rambled a little bit because a lot of my episodes are more geared to one or two titles, but I feel like it all fits together. From Shaft to Into the Dragon to the Batman. I mean, your love of martial arts, of action. We didn't even mention the MMA, which was kind of interesting because that's a big part, I think, of the Batman. I mean, the fighting style.

Yeah, absolutely. And then even MMA, I think, has been influenced by martial arts. What do you think? I mean, hugely, right? And even MMA, I think, has been influenced by martial arts. What do you think? I mean, hugely, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, most martial artists call Bruce Lee the grandfather of MMA.

Yeah. You know? So, I mean, that's a whole nother thing, which MMA is, you know, so hugely popular now. And I know you're in that world as well. So it all fits together along with the pulp. I got one of your Steve Holland books and I'm looking at it and I'm reading about it and I'd seen your other books and stuff and I'm like, this guy kind of dominated

paperback. And I mean, so many of the paperbacks I remember reading growing up and it's like, that probably was Steve Holland. I didn't even think about it because he covered so many genres. He didn't just do westerns or action. And he did romance genres. He didn't just do Westerns or action. And he did romance books. He did espionage.

I mean, he was James Bond. He was Sherlock Holmes. He was Superman. He was Doc Savage. I mean, you name it, he was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. So from the Elmore Leonard, some of his Westerns and everything.

So very cool stuff. So, well, hey, it's been a lot of fun. Hey, I've really enjoyed it, Tim. Thanks so much. Well, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. Michael Stratford is a top-notch creative producer and part of a great group that we had there at Warner Home Entertainment for quite a few years. If you're interested in following him or his new project, Fargo Hell on Wheels, there are links in the podcast show notes, as well as links to some of the films and books we talked about today. If you're on social media, be sure and follow the

show on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to continue the conversation and to be a part of our community. Until next time, you've been listening to Tim Millard. Stay slightly obsessed. The Extras is a production of Otaku Media, producers of podcasts, behind the scenes extras, and media that connects creatives with their fans and businesses with their consumers. Contact us today to see how we can work together to achieve your goals at www.otakumedia.tv or look for the link in the show notes.