The Ezra Klein Show - How Trump Has Changed, With Maggie Haberman

Episode Date: July 31, 2026

The first year of President Trump’s second term was a whirlwind of action: on immigration, on trade, on political retribution. But things seem to me to be slowing down quite a bit. Trump is incredibly unpopular, and he’s now bogged down in a war with Iran that he doesn’t seem capable of ending. He often appears more concerned with his many White House renovations than with whether the Republican Party can hold the House and the Senate in November. So what’s going on in this administration? Where is this all going? It’s hard to think of a journalist more qualified to answer those questions than Maggie Haberman. As a White House correspondent for The New York Times, she’s published some of the hardest-hitting reporting about Trump’s second act as president and the group of loyalists that now surrounds him. Haberman, alongside her New York Times colleague Jonathan Swan, just published an extraordinary chronicle of this extraordinary political moment, “Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump.” In this conversation, we discuss how decisions get made in this White House, what Trump has achieved so far and what’s really motivating him as we head toward the midterms. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Maggie Haberman on What an Unleashed Trump Might Do” by The Ezra Klein Show “Trump Says He Decides What ‘America First’ Means” by Michael Scherer Book Recommendations: Takeover by Charlie Savage Strangers by Belle Burden I Regret Almost Everything by Keith McNally Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Cinematography by Marina King. Video editing by Dani Dillon, Steph Khoury and Jan Kobal. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin and Emma Kehlbeck. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser. Transcript editing by Kate Wilkinson and Marlaine Glicksman. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Maggie Haberman is a White House correspondent at the New York Times, a Pulitzer Prize winner, and the co-author alongside Jonathan Swan of regime change. I would say the single best book on the first 14 months of Donald Trump's second term. She joins me now. Maggie Haberman, welcome back to the show. Ezra, thank you for having me. So I want to talk about the experience I had reading the book, which is remembering how much energy and ferocity there was.

in the first six to eight months of the Trump administration. And then knowing how many of the things that you all were tracking here, from the terrorists to Doge to parts of society bending the knee to Trump, to the Iran war, by now feel like they have deeply run out of some kind of steam or they've ended up trapping the Trump administration and its own decisions. This book is really about Trump's year one, mostly. What does your two feel like to you? First of all, thank you for having me, and I wish Jonathan were here, but his wife is having a baby soon.

And I have permission to say that. So there's a reason that the first section of the book is called Whirlwind. And I was thinking as you were talking about the running out of steam piece, I would put it a little differently. I think it's not black and white. And Elon Musk is obviously not working for the government anymore. I do think it's remarkable how much of Doge's memory hold. He came in. He was supposed to change the way government was going.

to work. In reality, Doge didn't do anything close to what it was supposed to do. But it did do things like show how Trump was going to govern by fiat in large measure. Elon Musk shut down USAID, just shut down an entire congressionally created agency. One of Trump's first unilateral actions was firing a bunch of inspectors general. Did not notify Congress, which he's supposed to do, about why, and he was supposed to give Congress a 30-day notice. None of that happened. Stephen Miller in particular rolled out with a bunch of executive actions that I would say, some of them didn't run out of steam, the ones focused on DEI in particular,

the one about trans women in sports in particular, and certainly a lot of their activities at the border have not. If you were a Trump supporter and you voted for him for those reasons, which were things he did talk about on the campaign trail, just those three, you'd be happy. They didn't vote for most of his base another potential forever war in the Middle East.

So that is, I think, not just running out of steam, that is injecting fresh chaos. he has now just launched a fresh trade war. And so there's the combination of new tariffs, plus escalation back to engaged combat with Iran, could be really interesting for the economy. And so I don't know that I think it's that it's run out of steam, but things tend to end one way with Trump. And it's usually in some form of the lack of strategy being apparent. And I would say that's what you're seeing right now. So I don't know that it's running out of steam. It's running into Trump reality.

I think often is something that the conservative analyst, Yuval Levin, said to me early in the term. He said that administrations have a rhythm. At first, they are the master of events. Everybody's responding to them. That's true. And then they are responding to events. And in Trump's case, he's often, even now, responding to events he created. Correct, which is what I was thinking when you were saying. There has been a lot of reporting, for instance, on Iran right now. He's in the mood for revenge. And I thought it was such a sort of. strange word that was being chosen. Like, he attacked Iran, decapitated the leadership, threatened to end the civilization. Iran is not completely capitulated to him. So he's like, he needs, like, is revenge the right word there? I'm sure he feels it is. I saw that reporting, and I actually wondered whether it was

just about what you're describing, which is some kind of retribution for a military intervention that he began, or whether it was part of this ongoing anger at Iran that really is quite real with him about the threats against his life. You want to talk through that because I think that's an important threat of the book. Sure. It's very much an important threat of the book. I know. I mean, Jonathan and my reporting really did show us how radicalizing those four years out of power were, not just for the investigations that he was facing and that a lot of his advisors got swept up in. But what also happened in 2024 right after he was convicted in a state court on falsifying documents in connection

with a hush money payment to a porn star who said he did. And a fair with her was a Pakistani man who was indicted in connection with a murder for hire plot that was supposed to be allegedly engaged in by Iran. This was a proxy. The allegation is Iran had a proxy who was trying to hire a murderer to kill Donald Trump. Correct. And was indicted, by the way, under the Biden Justice Department, was indicted. But, the assassination attempt in Butler, happens right after that, where he was shot.

And it was a galvanizing moment for the campaign. It was a galvanizing moment for him. All of that in his mind becomes one big blur. And around that time is when, and I don't remember it was right before or right after, but Iran had successfully hacked the campaign manager's emails, Susie Wiles. Iran, according to officials, was behind it.

And they start releasing them. And that was hugely embarrassing to the entire campaign. also added to this sense of siege that they all have. They all went back into the White House this way, for different reasons in some cases. But for that core group and for Trump himself, Iran and this feeling of being under threat is constant. You heard it when he spoke to John Carl after the Ayatollah was killed at the beginning of this war. And Trump said something to John Carl that I don't think I've heard him say since as a repeat, but it was, I'm paraphrasing, but it was I got them once. They tried to get me twice. Whatever he's referring to, I don't exactly know in terms of the twice, but it tells you

what his mindset is. One story that we've heard a lot is that Natanyahu talked Donald Trump into this war. There's another story that Trump himself had distinctive views on Iran, as for some time, has always said they cannot have a nuclear weapon, tore up the Obama nuclear deal over the objections of his own advisors, has always had a very hard line on Iran. Going back years, I mean, you can find old interviews way before the presidency where he talks about Iran humiliating us. When you get the respect of the other countries, then the other countries tend to do a little bit as you do, and you can create the right attitudes. The Iranian situation is a case and point. That they hold our hostages is just absolutely and totally ridiculous. That this country sits back

and allows country, such as Iran, to hold our hostages, to my way of thinking, is a horror. And I don't think they'd do it with other countries. I honestly don't think they'd do it with other countries. Obviously, you're advocating that we should have gone in there with troops, et cetera, and brought our boys out. I absolutely feel that, yes. I mean, you write about this, but a lot of Trump's politics seem very rooted in the 80s and things that happened to America in the 70s and the 80s. But what at this point is your view of why Donald Trump decides to actually do a regime change oriented war in Iran. The final piece of reporting that we did in regime change was about the lead-up to the Iran war.

And it was not, there were things that happened that I'm sure will be either unearthed or could fill out a fuller picture. But we were really just focused on a few discrete meetings and conversations. And these were Situation Room meetings, one of which included a foreign leader coming to the Situation Room to have a very sensitive intelligence conversation with the U.S. president. And so Netanyahu comes on February 11th and paints this pretty pretty. compelling to Trump's ear's story about why now is ripe for a regime change. And Trump is

always very receptive to you could be the person to do X, Y, Z. And so Trump says some version of sounds good to me. His own CIA director, his own secretary of state the next day, they have run these scenarios. They say some of what Netanyahu is proposing and what the Israelis would call their decapitation scenario of take out certain leadership. And then some of it could be done. They could degrade the ballistics missile program at Iran, for instance. But that the regime change scenarios, that Netanyahu had presented, including a video of, like, who could take over, and most of the Americans found it to be silly. John Radcliffe, the CIA director, called it farcical. Marco Rubio was much more explicit, said it's bullshit. In other words, it's bullshit.

And Trump said regime change will be their problem. It wasn't quite clear whether he meant Iran or Israel. But he still thought it was worth a try to accomplish the other objectives. So that, yes, was definitely Netanyahu making a case. But number of, one, Netanyahu in our reporting in 2024 has this meeting with Trump to essentially go kiss the ring and make nice after a break in their relationship. Trump says to him privately, I'm going to be much more aggressive on a ram this time. This is right after Butler. Remember that, as you said, he was, Trump was doing things against the objections of his own advisors on the nuclear deal, certainly the Obama nuclear deal. Taking out General Soleimani at the beginning of 2020 was also against what some of his advisors wanted. it is part of what has made him such a target for Iran.

But he is more hawkish on Iran than he is about other parts of the Middle East to a degree that has always surprised some of his own AIDS. And that his current aides have really misread, I would say. You know, they will continue to insist that he doesn't like Netanyahu, he doesn't like this, he doesn't like that. And he definitely says different things to different people, depending on who he's talking to. But it's always been pretty clear that he has a firm review here. And Trump believed Iran was a paper tiger after the 12-day, war of last year, because their response was pretty tepid to the strikes that the U.S. engaged in. It was sort of some choreographed strikes toward allies, okay, U.S. allies. Trump believed that

was going to be the extent of it. It was just a massive miscalculation on his part and a lack of understanding what was happening. And he was also fresh off of this Venezuela effort to capture Maduro earlier this year. That also made him believe we can do these things. I'm not saying that's a rational belief. I am saying that was his belief. And he believes things will work out for him always. It gets to something that I think comes through in the book, and I think about a lot from our coverage from the first year, even just on this show. There's really, in my view, no Trumpism, there's only Trump. Correct. Which is to say that the amount of energy that gets wasted, chasing down purported doctrines, the Mar-a-Lago Accords that were getting floated at one point,

to do a massive, you know, currency rebalancing all across the world, the Don Roe doctrine, right? We'd be focusing on the Western Hemisphere, we wouldn't be entangled in all this war and conflict in the Middle East. Trump just weaves in and out of theories. I mean, there are things he holds to, right? He is hawkish on immigration, has been for a very long time. That is sustained. He has his views on trade. But even trade, the objectives have flitted back and forth on that. And everybody who says, I know what MAGA is, I know what Trumpism is. If it is anything, as J.D. Vance would put it, it's no new wars. They end up wrong because Trump is right. I think it's possibly you he said it to.

Michael Scherer at the Atlantic, he said it to. He's the one who decides what it is. Magas, whatever I say it is, is what he said. Now, I think that's true now. I guess I have a slightly different take on it, though I generally agree with you, that trying to pin him to some ideology is just an absolute fool's errand and has always been a fool's errand. He does have these id-like impulses that he is very interested in, but it doesn't mean they can't be supplemented if the occasion calls for it. I think MAGA is a movement, I do.

I don't think MAGA is the entire Republican Party. I think MAGA is a movement within the Republican Party. And the coalition that exists around Trump in that framework has always been very uncomfortable and strange because he will say different things to different parts of it. And I think that they would only be willing to ignore the parts that don't match their own view for him. I cannot think of another figure who can unite these different facets of this movement. But I do think that this movement is having fissures, not just because of Iran and Israel.

It started with Epstein. Right after the 12-day war is when the Epstein crisis, and I'm calling it a crisis, what it actually is is a multi-administration failure to deal with a pedophile, who people of both parties found entertaining or use. or whatever. But it was the MAGA movement leaders who had been talking about a need for transparency over many years leading up to Trump's election in 2024. And they then get caught up in that because Trump wants nothing to do with this. He doesn't want anything released. So it becomes a crisis because there is growing anger by Trump's own base about what's happening. There's growing anger by

victims about why have these files not been released. Why is nothing being looked at? So you end up in this remarkable series, and we've read about these in the book, these Situation Room Meetings, same place where Trump decided to take the country to war in Iran, was what they were using for crisis comms on how do we get ourselves out of this mess? But if you want to track a moment that Trump started losing his own base, it was then. But did he lose his base? I mean, I had people, I've had people on the right on to talk about Trumpism cracking up and him losing his base. And then, you know, you look at the polls and the base is almost entirely with him. He's able to intervene in any primary he wants.

he has not actually seemed to lose influence in this way. Tucker Carlson kind of breaking with him, at least on some issues, these things really happened. And yet his influence with Republicans seems pretty undimmed. The people who challenged him like Massey, like Marjorie Taylor Green. They lost. They lost.

They're gone. They're gone. I think two things can exist at once, though. A, there was polling last year showing that even with his own base, mostly private polling, his numbers were ticking down. Now, there is no question that people who have opposed him, because the Republican base is so Trump-dependent, will find themselves out of a job. That is absolutely true. At the same time, I never thought that I would see enough Republicans cross over and vote for the Epstein Transparency Act when Donald Trump was openly telling them, don't do this.

It's the only time I can think of, Ezra, where he would say, believe me, not what you're hearing over there. And there were people who didn't, including in his own base. what their voter preference ends up being in the midterms or in a primary, it doesn't necessarily correlate to that. And I realize it sounds like I'm saying two things that are contradictory. I think these are two facts that exist at the same time. A very real threat of the book is this, what does Trump know anymore? And when or how does he know it? I mean, you have this, I wasn't really familiar with Natalie Harp before I read the book, but this person who kind of follows him around, give some printouts of adoring fan mail. positive news stories from right wing media. But, you know, he's on true social. He's not really on other platforms. He clearly has some contact, you know, with people like Carlson and others. And, you know, so he gets some information. But how would you describe the difference in Trump's second term from his first in terms of what he knows of the world outside the White House? You know, I can't stress

enough how radically different Trump 2.0 is from term one. So this government is run basically by a half dozen people who are in the room with him. And if you are a senior official in this government somewhere else, major decisions can get made. And if you're not in the room, like, you will literally have no idea. The interagency process, in particular at the National Security Council, just really doesn't exist the way it used to. And that was often how other agencies would be brought in. that's just not happening now. The comms process is not quite what it was. Now it's just sort of pure trolling. And he gets his information, as you said, from Truth Social. It used to be that he would get on what was known as Twitter, and when he was president last time, and he would look at the replies,

and he would look at the trending topics. He would talk to more people. He does watch other cable channels besides Fox. We learned recently that he watches MS Now a lot on the weekends. Jonathan and I learned that after he appeared to have watched one of our appearances talking about the book. So it's a little more variegated than it seems, but most of the information is coming from Natalie Harp, who's known as the human printer, from people who know that he wants a constant supply of positive reinforcement. And his aides are afraid of giving him bad news. And I just want to make one other point. Fox is so much less critical of him this term than they were last term, even on the news shows. It is all pretty positive and especially about the war.

We stopped the fighting in the ceasefire and the 20-yard line. We take it into the end zone. Once you start this, there needs to be a finish. And the only finish is complete surrender by the Iranians. I hate to say it, but complete annihilation. The reason this president will get on in history for a thousand years. The reason the Prime Minister of Israel will go down in history for a thousand years is because they saw the danger and they stood up. to the danger, and they're fighting the danger.

They are like the last in anything that would be considered the MAGA, a media ecosystem that is really championing this war. So how much do you think the decisions being made reflect an altered informational environment for him? Well, it's a great question that I don't think that we have the full answer to. I mean, one question that keeps coming up is, does he understand how depleted the U.S. munitions are from this war. Now, that's not an unknowable thing for his own Pentagon leaders, but I don't know how much they're telling him. We have a scene in the book where his

economic advisors, particularly Howard Lutnik, Commerce Secretary, are talking about economic numbers. And Trump, this is ahead of the trade war, Liberation Day last year. And Trump says those numbers are bullshit. Natalie, get me the real numbers. And so she's Googling to find these numbers. There was pushback in this meeting, but his willingness to, operate on his own gut and on what he thinks is reality, I would say as much sharper this term. There's something also tucked in there, which is you describe his meetings as having this borderless quality that people are flowing in and out of the White House. It's not necessarily, I'm sure it is sometimes, but, you know, from 1015 to 1045, we're meeting with the Joint Chiefs

from 10, you know, that ends. They all leave 1045. So can you talk just a bit about that? kind of free-flowing nature. Because I think the way he ends up getting information, making decisions actually reflects that, the slightly random assemblage of people who might be around on a certain issue at a certain time. There's no question about that, but it's also by his design.

This White House group of staffers is much more willing to work with that as his preferred state than term one. You had Ryan's previous come in as the first White House chief of staff in 2017. He kept trying to put things on Trump's schedule. First, it was we're going to schedule early meetings to try to get him to stop tweeting in the morning. Then the meetings started sliding back and that wasn't working. They tried

monitoring his phone calls. That didn't work either. This has always been a facet of Trump. It's just there's a big, long kind of day, and sometimes he has all the time in the world. But there is no, sort of, this person cannot come in. There might be certain moments like that or specific meetings, but in general, he does have an open door policy. Everything becomes this rolling bowl session. and I'll give you another, for instance, in the book. Laura Loomer comes into this meeting in April. I think it was Liberation Day, actually. And she'd negotiate this meeting with him directly.

And she hands him this list of national security staffers who she believed were being disloyal to him and that should be fired. And he's listening and, you know, he acts on it. But in the middle of that meeting, Congressman Scott Perry comes in to join with his own list of things that he has an issue with. And Trump just has them there. And so, yes, the focus is whatever is in front of. And he just barks in order at some maid and they go off and do it.

Yes, it's just get it done. I want it fast. Fine. What's ever in front of his face? You are correct that it does have to do with the information he's getting. But trying to stop that is also useless because many have tried. This maybe goes back to the question on the beginning. And maybe out of steam is not the right way to put it.

But I always wonder with him and pretty around reporting like this, what picture he has of the way things are going. because, you know, from where I sit, his trade war has been a disaster. It is wildly unpopular. It has been shredded by the Supreme Court. It has made people very angry at him. And it has accomplished nothing. We're not seeing a huge resurgence in manufacturing jobs. China's not weaker now. I think the broad and correct view is China's in a much stronger position today than when Trump stepped back into the White House. So sort of everything they promised on the trade war has not happened and the politics of it have been bad. Doge completely collapsed after a couple months. It did terrible damage. It did terrible damage. USAID is gutted and gone. People have died. But it did not then cohere into what many I think people thought you might get, which is like a Doge 2.0 where, you know, Russ Vod and others, like actually create something institutionalized. He's not popular. The Iran War, I think, is not going well. They have no legislative agenda that I can tell. No. They don't have an affordability agenda that makes any sense.

But if you're him and you got somebody falling you around all day telling you you're wonderful. You think the media that is mad at you just has Trump derangement syndrome. You're getting presented with peace of words by the head of FIFA. Different CEOs are coming in and constantly kissing your ass and telling you how great you are. Maybe you don't buy any of it. You have defied the polls many times. You just hit on what it is. We've left out one piece that we haven't discussed at all that I think we will all be talking about after the midterms a lot,

which is the incredible massive self-dealing. You are richer. If you are Donald Trump and you have to see your whole life talking about wealth and measuring success through wealth, and you are now wealthier liquid-wise assets than you have ever been from an industry that you regulate, from a company that was created during your campaign that your sons are running with the sons of your special envoy. It's a sentence that it's really

would have been unimaginable, not that long ago. And you're doing it, and Republicans in Congress say nothing. And the Senate say almost nothing. And voters have only started to care about some of it in polling I'm seeing, and I honestly think the main reason is less the money made, although I do think that that is a factor.

it's that they can see visual signs with all of the monuments and all of the literally blasting through longstanding buildings or structures like the East Wing, planning to build an arch, putting down drapes so people can't see your construction projects and so forth. Symbols are a lot easier for voters to understand, and voters tend to think all politicians are corrupt, but this is different than anything we have ever seen in the U.S. system. if you're him, you have been this kind of walking moral hazard. Your company almost sank in 1991. People don't understand how close to ruin he was when his casinos were over leveraged. It was across his properties. It wasn't just there. You come back through a variety of reasons, but partly because the banks decided it was worth staying with you and your father helped you. You become a reality TV star, you win the presidency after never having run for city council before. You are indicted four times. Your opponents keep doing things that are pretty self-harmful. Joe Biden has a pretty non-spectacular

last two years at minimum of his term. You are shot at, you survive. You have taken this mystical quality with your, not just your followers, but with your advisors who refer to him, or then anyway, would refer to him as the chosen one, only semi-joking in some cases. And you believe everything works out for you, which is literally what he said to Tucker Carlson. You know why the Iran war is going to work out? Things are going to work out? Because they always do. And so you believe that your reality is better than what experts have been telling you. He thinks the economy is boring. He literally will tell advisors he finds us boring to talk about. He wants to talk about immigrants, you know, committing rapes or murdering people or committing crimes. And he's going to do

what he wants to do. And he is, look, he obviously doesn't want to be impeached again. But when you have to say again, unimpeached, it's stuff's mattering as much sort of, I think, to some extent in his head. Also not even the first again. Well, that's exactly. Correct. It would be again three. And so again, well, again, two, I guess. He's already told people that he's going to pardon everyone who's come within a certain radius of the Oval Office. And he has an immunity ruling from the Supreme Court that it's still not entirely clear what would qualify as a presidential act, where he has no criminal exposure, but I suspect it would be most of them if it was pressed. So if you were him, this moment could be very bad for other Republicans, but he's not

that worried for himself. Let me ask you about the corruption dimension of this. So when you talk to Republicans off the record, often they will admit they know that we are dealing with, with a level of corruption that is majestic in its grandeur. That is like nothing we've really seen before. It's not even a debatable point when you talk to the record. One thing I hear people say all the time in the media, elsewhere, just voters, Democrats, is any one of these stories would have consumed Washington at another time, would have sunk another presidency. You think of Travelgate and Pig futures in the Clinton.

administration. You think of the Trump cabinet member who had to resign, I think it was Andy Price. Tom Price. Tom Price. For, what was it? Taken Charter Jets? He was using Jets. We have referenced that in the book, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Why is it

that stories that would have consumed Washington, and even would have been a problem for, you know, members of the Trump administration another time seemed to slide off of him? There's great reporting being done at the New York Times, at the New Yorker, at other places. You know, we know a lot. Right.

We have numbers now that we need to have. Yep. But why has he been able to flood the zone on corruption and then escape the consequences it would have attached to another administration? Well, I would break that down a little bit. So what you're describing in terms of consequences from what you just ticked through was primarily the consequences of a news cycle, the consequences of public information. And number one, I think that at this point, if you are a journalist and you get into journalism

and the expectation that what you write is going to force an outcome and that that is your end, you're going to be disappointed very, very often because it is a totally different media landscape because this choose-your-own-adventure partisanship really actually allows people to just hear what they want to hear, number one. Number two, we don't have subpoena powers, right? We can only write up to what we know. In the past, investigations would have been done by the inspectors general. He's fired inspectors general at the start of his term. They would have been done by Congress on a bipartisan level. Everything is tribal now. Like beyond anything we have seen in the past, it was pretty bad before in terms of partisanship. The House GOP acts like an arm of the Trump administration. The Republican House members

and some senators, they still look at him as a celebrity. Yes, there is obviously a fear factor. He has Shoney is willing to destroy their careers and really humiliate them. But the way that they, grown men, you know, he'll take chocolate bars out of the, what they call the chum closet that has the presidential merch or whatever. And he'll, like, throw them. It's like Hershey bars. And these are house members who are like, ooh, me. They love, you know, they love being on Air Force One with him. And I had a house member gushing that he knew his first name. Yes, correct. It's, this celebrity is talking to me, not this president. This. This. celebrity. I watched the apprentice. I knew Donald Trump. So that's one reason why. The other is

he has been investigated since almost the second he stepped, actually literally the second he stepped into office in 2017. So I think there is a flattening effect with the public in terms of their expectation. At a certain point, it all becomes one Trump would smear it that way, witch hunt, explaining to people that there is new information is, I think, a challenge for journalists across the board. All of that occurs in his favor. There is not one single reason why. And I don't think there will ever be another politician who will have this same experience as he does, but we'll say. Do you think that changes if Democrats get subpoena power? No, I don't because I think that if you are Donald Trump and you can pardon everyone around you

and you can instruct your entire government not to respond to subpoenas with anything timely and only do it once the final stop and a court challenge makes you. Trump's whole thing is waiting people out, and we have seen this over and over and over again. So there are a number of members of his government, and I talked about how radicalized they all are, who do believe that they are going to be not just subpoenaed, but prosecuted.

And I'm not just talking about when the House flips. I'm talking about it under a Democratic presidency. They genuinely believe, and I'm not endorsing this view, I'm just saying this is their perspective. We are going to be indicted by an illegitimate hunter of the Democrats. At some point, they are going to come after us when we are out of power. So we are going to do everything we can. That is entirely the mindset.

They have the same hunted mentality that he does. I just think that people who think that the House is going to flip and this is going to look like it did in 2019. I'm struggling to see that. I could be wrong. But what happens when they issue? contempt of Congress subpoenas, and they send them to Attorney General Todd Blanche. Does he rush to start an investigation? Like, I just don't know what this looks like. A Democratic strategist said to me in 2016, right after Trump won, that the entire country was about to finally understand how much of our

system is norms and not laws. And fundamentally, I still come back to that every time. If you have somebody who is willing to violate every norm, I mean, I'm really every norm. I don't think I can think of one that he, I'm sure there's something, but it's hard to go down the list and find something that is still firmly in place. We have a president who cheered when Robert Mueller died. He cheered when Rob Reiner was killed by his own son, according to prosecutors. He is making a ton of money, and they're very blasé about it. They will say there's no corruption here as they continue doing what they're doing. They're about to start trying to monetize his true social posts for advance notice.

It's a recipe. Can you talk through that for a minute? Is that the true social? Oh, yeah. The, I know. It's like, it's hard to describe because I remember. They're trying to monetize it. They're trying to monetize rapid trading.

Correct. On true social. Correct. But can you explain how? Yes. What they're trying to do is sell for very, very high dollar amounts. I think it's like $100,000. Advance notification of Trump's truth posts because they can move markets.

and do move markets, it seems, even if it's not violating a law for Trump, because presidents are actually not held to the same ethical standards and laws and regulations as their staff, I mean, how does this not become something else? Well, it goes to something, I think, in what you were just talking about, which is, I think, the deep answer to the question we were just discussing is Republicans. It's the fundamental answer in terms of the like a movement. Right? Like in other administrations, even your co-partisans on something like this would say no. Now, arguably, Republicans did that a bit on the IRS slash fund. It was, I mean, that was so brazen that it was a little hard not to have problems with it. And actually, I don't even remember if had the judge already raised questions about that once they did. Did that give them cover? I don't even remember. But yes, I mean, this was, this was your taking taxpayer money in doing this.

it's the taxpayer. A lot of how not just accountability, but investigation worked in Washington, was it either the other side was in power? So they were able to structure investigation and that the agencies run more professionally, the Department of Justice run more independently. And so they responded to investigation and responded to subpoenas. And that creates a structure of and a sequencing of information coming out and possible consequences and people being hauled before Congress in each.

one is a new news story. And that's how you get the connection of like a congressional operation and like media coverage that people understand is a scandal. Yes, well, that is true. That's how it works. And Republicans just are not going to do that. No, they're not. You know, the closest that they have come would have been. And I'm really stretching the word closest here. So just roll with me for a second before you said this is absolutely not at all parallel, because I'm not saying it is, but the closest would have been some of what they were doing around Epstein, but of course that took a detourne to the Clintons and all kinds of other stuff. And by that, I just mean James Comer's committee initially, which was filing a subpoena to Pam Bondi that

the administration was not happy with. And then they slow rolled that. But no, there's no analog. I mean, if you look back at the last real effort that attempted to be moderately bipartisan, it would have been the J6 committee. And the select committee that was investigating what happened, in the lead up to the January 6th right at the Capitol and Trump's efforts to overturn the election. But even that devolved into partisan politics. And so there you have it. It was striking to me how small of a role Congress played in this book. Well, there's a couple of reasons. It's a good, it's a point. But the reality is that Congress plays a supplicant role. We did talk about that. We talked about Mike Johnson's role with Trump and how incredibly unusual it is historically. There's just, there has not been a relationship like this between a House Speaker. and a president that I can think of, where it literally give me my marching orders this way.

That is not about policy. It's about just whatever you want it to be. But the reality is there is no legislative agenda, as you said. There was the one big beautiful bill, and we did talk about that, and we do get into what went into that. But this administration knew that it was never going to be able to do much legislatively. But this again goes to me to this question of what is actually being built here versus what is just kind of collapsing or being like left alone on even a lot of these issues. Okay, so the big beautiful bill did pass. It's a big change. And, you know, as the actual changes to Medicaid and food stamps and other things were a lot, I think we have a lot of political upheaval around that. Yes, and there will be more focus. And there will be more coverage and

interest. I agree with that. Look, their trade agenda got gutted. They could have gone to Republicans in Congress to get more power on Paris. They chose not to do that. Would Republicans Congress keep them from ever changing the filibuster? I don't know. Like, they've been kind of tough on that, but they've also, like, nicked it around the edges a little. A little. Immigration. They have done a tremendous amount of immigration. I think of everything you can look at, they have done the most on immigration. What they have not done is change the loss. Well, because that takes time. I mean, this isn't complicated. This is. But it also means that another administration can. I understand that. But, But they also assume that's going to happen regardless.

I mean, I think just to try to explain the mindset here, the person who spent the most time, and I'm glad you brought up immigration, the person who has spent the most time thinking about a Trump 2.0 and not just from the perspective of immigration, but obviously that's his driving issue and defining issue is Stephen Miller. And he spent four years focused on not just what he wanted to do differently this time. You know, the initial Muslim ban was a disaster and a court-challenged disaster, and it was poorly written and so forth, and it created mass chaos on flights and so forth. Stephen Miller spent four years looking at how far the law could go on a number of things. What was in the executive branch's control, what could be claimed as an executive branch power, which they've done a lot. And they've gotten caught in courts on this, as you know. And that's sort of part of what you're saying, I think, is if you don't want to have a big court fight, go work through the actual process. They would rather have a big court fight because if you go through the process, it's going to move slowly. And their gamble is that they can win much of the time, not every time. The trade agenda was a calamity for a variety of reasons. But it wasn't just because they didn't go to Congress. It was because the formula made no goddamn sense. But Doge is another example where to do, to do what they wanted to do. You actually need to do civil service reform.

And they've done a little bit of that, but it's not civil service reform. Yeah, you'd have to go and change the laws. Yes. But that's not, again, this actually gets to a different problem. There isn't a they, actually. They don't all work in harmony, even though they collectively want the same thing, which is crush the left, expand our power, focus on a specific set of issues. And we've gone over many of them on this show. But Russ Vote actually understands how government works.

Elon Musk did not. He just came in and started punching through walls. In some cases, literally physical aspects were impacted by how he handles things. That is different also than how Stephen Miller wants to handle certain things. And so that creates its own internal crash. Then add Congress to that as a layer. It's hard to see. Has there been a shift in who holds power in the court last year? Yes, but it can change quite rapidly. Marker Rubio had a lot of capital with Trump. for a long time. I think still does, but he is really not that involved in the Iran issue. Because Trump doesn't want him because he doesn't want to be near it. I think it's more the latter, honestly. I think that Trump would welcome his involvement more. And he may get more involved now, but he's been talking about it a little bit more. But I think that Rubio, if you strapped him to a polygraph, this is not where he wants things to be. Susie Wiles is still hugely influential. Stephen Miller, despite these stories about how he was getting

his wings clipped and whatever after Renee Good and Alex Prudy were killed in Minnesota. That was vastly overstated. The showy displays of, you know, repelling into a building in Chicago from a Black Hawk, which I still can't really believe happened last year. But they have stopped the great displays of force. They are still using force. But it's not, you know, these ice drives the same way. It's the traffic stops.

That's what the latest shootings were about. Stephen Miller has taken down his arrest number for, undocumented immigrants from last year. It was 3,000 a day last year. Now it's 2,000 a day. And he's back to pushing people. And he's very, very aggressive on these calls. So Miller still has power because Miller can also tell Trump, I can get you what you want very quickly, which is also, again, why they don't go to Congress. They want to act unilaterally. Trump wants to act unilaterally. And he just wants to do what he wants. Hegseth is still actually pretty powerful with Trump. Radcliffe is on certain issues, but the person who is most powerful is Trump, period.

Hegset is powerful with Trump. Trump listens to him. He listens to him on certain issues. Heg Seth has figured out how to have conversations. Look, Hegsef, if there was anyone who was in favor of Iran, it was Heg Seth. But I don't think he fully envisioned it going this way either. Hegsteth often shows up for these briefings with Trump, with Dan Kane. He has figured out how to handle these discussions so that he is turning to somebody who actually has better tactical understanding. But Trump does listen to him.

And he likes him. The former general who is now the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but who's, Style is very different than Trump's last choice for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which was Mark Millie, who would get into these sort of grabbed Trump by the lapels arguments. He did see his job as telling Trump which way to go. Kane has told people he doesn't see that as his job. Hegsteth is a diehard Trumper, not Maga, trumper. And so that buys you a lot of casha internally. Yeah, so that was my question with him. Is he somebody who Trump enjoys as a yes man or who Trump listens to for strategic advice? more the former than the latter, but the strategic advice is also channeled through these joint conversations with Heg-Seth. But he does listen to him, and he likes him.

You know, he's good on TV. He's tough. He doesn't take crap, et cetera, et cetera. And he is a devotee. What have the people in the inner circle learned about how to brief Trump? It's a good question. This is, it sits around the edge of a lot of the stories in your book of people bringing in poster boards, right? Well, that's still faulty.

That's one person. But yes, I understand. But I've heard from other people around the briefing books that they're very visual. Oh, totally. Tell me what people have learned about how you briefed Donald Trump. Trump is very visual, as you said. And this was a big facet of term one, too. Now they all submit to it.

I think they resisted it, the government because it was so unusual to them in term one. But he really doesn't like long briefing books. He doesn't really read them. He wants to be shown how things look. That is how he absorbs them. People describe them. They'll say he's a TV guy. and they tend to think of it as him on the set of The Apprentice,

but it's actually really how he absorbs the world is through TV. And so he likes to see how things look. Just having a dry recitation of facts and discussions with him doesn't work very well. But even when it was visuals in Term 1, the quality of the information was fairly reliable. There's a much bigger fight now about the quality of the information. Whether you include essentially raw intelligence,

whether you tell him reports that are unverified, whether it is just a different type of discussion. The amount that he relies on a sense of how things are either playing visually, right, there are moments in the book that I've heard about too, where he sees what it's looking like when the Israelis are doing something, and now he wants to be involved. Or the flip, right, where he is being shown possible cabinet appointees and they give him little montages of them on cable news.

There is something very deep about Trump's, he doesn't just apprehend the world visually. He is somewhat a master of creating visuals for the world. 100% yes. You know, Hegsef is one of many people he sort of cast into his administration. He was an innovator in this. I mean, I think you have to see Momdani as having like a different version. version of this, a kind of visual mastery of the world. I just had Morris Katz on the show. They very much found Graham Platner and cast him in a very particular position. But again, this operates on the edges of the book, but I'd be curious to hear you bring it to the center of the stage, which is, what has it meant to have this administration that both makes internal decisions through spectacle and then communicates through spectacle? The judges visually. and acts visually.

It becomes a self-reinforcing feedback loop sometimes, right? I mean, so when you were talking about Hegsef, we have a bit in the book about how he got very into these videos of the boat strikes, and they would be privately described as Hegsef's snuff films. But, you know, he would want to have some sent to Trump because he knew Trump would want to see them. Trump is a master of the attention economy, which is what I was thinking about when you were talking about Mom Dani.

I think that that is part of the attention economy is creating a visual and is getting something that will grab people. Mom Donnie was exceptionally good at that in his campaign and still is, honestly. I mean, when I look at his social media, just as mayor, it is actually quite striking how much of it still comes into my feed, even if I'm not looking for it, even if I'm not looking at his thing. But it becomes a way to tell yourself that your view of reality is what's happening. So, for instance, we have a scene in the book where Stephen Miller comes into, it was really an important mom, and he comes into the Oval Office, and he's got these pictures of this kid from Doge, whose name online was Big Balls. That's what he is known as, and his actual name is Ed something. But he had been beaten up, and he's got these photos that Stephen Miller had gotten from his wife, who had been working with Musk at Doge. That then fires up something that Trump's wanting to do forever, which is send National Guard in to D.C. It isn't just about seeing visuals that, you know, reaffirm your point. It is basically that your world is no competing viewpoints and that everything is just going in through the eyes. And it stops you from thinking the same way.

Because part of, I mean, this is my opinion now. I'm getting a little inside his head, which I'm trying not to do because it's not very worthwhile endeavor. But I do think that when people are consuming their own content that way. So much of consumption of visuals is about you react, you react. And so it's just a constant reaction. And that is what they try doing with these videos that Stephen Chung does when he's trolling, you know, the White House Communications Director, who's a big UFC guy, for instance. They set these videos of these strikes, like the actual video game, music and dynamics. Or, and I thought this was a fascinating detail in the book, to the music of artists who are going to protest.

Correct. So we're going to say, how dare you use my music in this way? And then that's another news cycle for them. Correct. One of the things that Kushner used to tell people in the White House last time was that he would describe what he called Trump Rules. And one of them was controversy elevates message.

And so there's no quicker way to do that. But it's also a way to say, I'm not going to follow your rules. What did you make of the Trump-Mam-Dani meetings? I was so not surprised, and it went exactly as I thought it was going to. in all seriousness. But Trump's own team is a little jarred by how much he enjoys talking to Mom Dani and how, as much as Republicans are trying to talk about how, you know, socialists or communists, and Trump is even doing that in his own speeches, but he seems to have a real carve-out

from one particular person. And I know he's attacked him a few times recently, Mam Dani, but he's very good. I mean, apparently in their first meeting, Mamdani was referring to the crossover of voters that were Trump voters at his own rallies. momdani has been quite smart. The Trump momdani meetings, they reflect what I thought was the funniest part of your book, which is Trump's tendency

to be incredibly conciliatory and friendly when he meets one-on-one with people who he has been slandering, whose administration might be entirely persecuting, but for somebody who is so brash and aggressive, he's a bit of a push. see cat one-on-one? He does not like one-on-one interpersonal direct conflict. This has been a constant in his life. Sometimes he does it intentionally, just to sort of make the person be off guard.

But with Mamdani, he seems to genuinely like him, so, or whatever that's worth. Do you feel Trump is changed with age, or the age is sowing him in meaningful ways? I mean, to find meaningful. I, when I watch him on television from even 10 years ago, I mean, I was watching his R&C address in 2016 recently, and it's a pretty jarring comparison to just how his words flow now. He speaks much slower. He's telling the same stories a lot.

The weave is getting wide, as Joe Rogan would say. That's definitely true. I will say that Jonathan and I spent an hour with him in the Oval Office on March 16th of this year for a fact-check interview for the book. We didn't notice anything meaningfully different. What we did notice is that he seemed like what Steve Bannon describes as pure Trump. There was just much more focus on payback, much more focus on what he wants to be focused on,

very obsessed with the renovation projects, very. And here's the models. It's day 17 of the war. Here's my models of the ballroom and so forth. It was like he didn't have a care in the world. But I don't subscribe to this dementia conversation. I don't think Trump is some fundamentally different human being. I just don't.

But I think he is much more himself, which is a product of age in general. There was a sense, maybe the better way to put it, is that there was a thread on practically lefty social media six, eight months ago, around the sort of strange bruising people were seeing. That is weird. I mean, yes. The sort of the ankle swelling that he was quite sick. In terms of physical health, he has chronic venous insufficiency syndrome disease, whatever it's called. That means that the blood is not going to his heart properly. So that's not a good thing.

You know, on his first medical report in 2018, he had a calcium score of, I think, 133. That suggests some level of heart disease. They have not put out a calcium score since. He was very sick with COVID in 2020. And we still don't know the extent of that. I mean, I reported some on that from information we got well after he was out of office. But, you know, we don't know what we don't know. And his health notes read as if he's written part of them.

So, you know, he goes to Walter Reed with more frequency and they release less information. He got imaging. We don't even know what they were. He can't tell us. He says he was treated by 22 specialists. What? 22, I don't even know what that could be. And the bruising thing, the explanation has never made sense.

It's always been handshaking, aspirin. It could be that 80-year-olds have thinner skin, but he's clearly not the picture of great physical health, but I don't know what that means. What I generally know what it means is that electing 80-year-olds is a bit of a gamble, right? I mean, electing anybody isn't a gamble. You don't know how somebody's health is going to be, but you can guess where it's going when they're older. How much of his time actually goes into the renovation now?

A lot. If you looked at like a chart of his mind share, like this I will say about getting into his mind, like 70% of it would be on his renovations. It's a legacy thing, but it's, I always think of legacy with him different than the way we usually use the word legacy. It's not what am I leaving behind for the world. It's what am I leaving behind so the world can't kick me off the world. or de-platform me, or take my name off buildings in Manhattan, or take away my Bronx-least golf course, you know, or debank me. It's, what can I do that cannot be taken away? Yeah, how can I create monuments to myself?

Correct. I mean, literally, I mean, he literally said that. When Ed O'Keefe from CBS asked him, he noticed the arch, which he's calling the arc to Trump design on the resolute desk, and he asked her on the desk, I don't know if it was the resolute. I think it was back by then. Ed said, what is that? And Trump's like it's an arch. And I said, but who's it for? And Trump said, me. And he was quite clear about it. There was no further conversation. The Kennedy Center, the ballroom. You know, I mean, I can go on and on, but it is all monuments. Can you tell the Macron story with the arch? I'm going to eff this up a little bit. But in a meeting, he calls, so one of the things he was musing about was like, what should go on top of the arch? And it was like, should he put a version of the gold version of like the fight, fight, fight fist? from Butler up there. But he calls McCrone in the middle of another meeting and starts asking him about the Architriam in France and, you know, what's it like? And how many, you know, is it of a visitor's desk? Do people jump off of it? I mean, this was the conversation that he was interested in.

And he's still talking about this kind of thing, but calls up a foreign leader to inquire about what his arch to himself should look like. Speaking of the other side of legacy, the more traditional way we would talk about legacy, does he have things he still wants to achieve? politically? It's a really good question. I could answer that pretty clearly in 2019 and 2020. There were things that he still wanted to achieve. If there are things that he wants to achieve beyond just not being Herbert Hoover, as he would say, meaning with a giant global crisis, not really. I mean, he, look, he's resumed his trade war, as you said. I think he'd like to achieve getting out of Iran. I think he would like to figure out an end of the war that he started. But that's not an

achievement. That's a reaction to his own behavior, as we started this episode with. There are people around him who would like to see some form of comprehensive immigration reform to your question about legislation. That's something that we can work with Democrats on. Boy, do I have a hard time seeing Democrats wanting to give him some kind of a political win that way, especially when it would be, I suspect a bill they would find less than palatable, as they have almost every single other bill involving anything related to immigration with him. Maybe another way of asking this is, Are there actual policy issues, his mind is gravitating towards in the way it does towards the renovation?

No, I know what you're asking. Yeah, no. I mean, it's like, I mean, it's like, I mean, that could change. They could be having conversations we're not aware of. But certainly not in anything that we have heard. I mean, of anything, what he spent the last year and a half focused on, you know, as issues top one, two, and three were retribution, were these bullying campaigns across various. various industries and aspects of civil society, where he was pretty successful for a time.

The law firms won. The courts caught up with him. But media, he's done pretty well, I would say, in terms of his attacks on the media, not through the government levers, but through lawsuits. But renovations is really a huge part of it. The degree of mindshare on these projects is vast. He is vastly less interested in and reactive to domestic politics this time, just beyond. And one of the things that we started seeing in 2024, and we get into this. This relates to the, in the book, it relates to the mystical quality. He sees himself as big on a level that I think people really don't understand. And it was quite clear when we were sitting with him, and we write about that in the epilogue of the book.

But he is playing for history, capital G, great man of history, to be remembered, to be remembered by one name, to have left a mark on the world that is just different than a typical president or what he would say is a normal president. that doesn't involve the boring work of trying to pass a bill. That doesn't involve the boring work of going to Iowa to talk about XYZ, although his numbers are not great in Iowa now either. I mean, this is fundamentally less interesting to him. Immigration? Very interesting to him. I think that if he could find some way to even further change the immigration system

and claim credit for that, he would. It did not involve legislation. He may still end up trying to do something legislatively. It wouldn't surprise me at all. I just don't see it going very far. But who knows, I'm willing to be surprised. But no, there is not room in the tank for, here is how we are going to map out XYZ. They are in survival mode politically to a degree that I kind of can't express.

I think that's a good place to end. Also, final question. What are three books you recommend to the audience? Okay. So I'm reading Charlie Savage's takeover the return of the imperial presidency, which was a very, very good look at how, particularly Dick Cheney, expanded executive power. under W. Bush post 9-11. I am reading Bell Burden's

Strangers because of a book that is that everywhere, I sort of feel compelled to have some sense of. I haven't already yet, is it good? It's interesting. It's interesting. It's well-written. It's definitely propulsive. It's an interesting choice

to write about such wealth in this moment. It was, that was a little hard to get through because there are many people who go through divorces who don't quite have the same resources. And then Keith McNally's, I regret everything. Oh, that book has been fun.

It's actually fantastic. But I've had to cycle out of that one for news and for other reasons. Maggie Haberman, thank you very much. That's right. Thanks for having me.