The Ezra Klein Show - The Growing Scandal of $TRUMP

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Steve Bannon famously talked about using “muzzle velocity” as a strategy: doing so much so quickly that you overwhelm the ability of the media to cover it. I think what the Trump family is doing with crypto is muzzle velocity for corruption.What they’re doing isn’t necessarily illegal. It would be if these were official campaign donations; the sums involved are so large, and the buyers include foreign nationals. But the Trump family is making this money personally. And they’re doing it across so many different crypto ventures, it’s almost impossible to keep track.So that’s what I wanted to do with this episode: try to track at least some of it.The person I’ve enlisted to help me out is Zeke Faux. He’s the author of the fantastic book “Number Go Up: Inside Crypto’s Wild Rise and Staggering Fall” and an investigative reporter at Bloomberg, where he’s been covering many of these strange Trump family crypto schemes.This episode contains strong language.Mentioned:“Trump Crypto Venture Has Talked to Binance About Doing Business” by Zeke FauxBook Recommendations:A Distant Mirror by Barbara W. TuchmanNixonland by Rick PerlsteinGretel and the Great War by Adam SachsThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail] can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.htmlThis episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Richard Painter. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

I'm going to be doing a little bit of a Last week, the Trump administration formally accepted a Boeing 747 luxury jet from the government of Qatar. This is, if you've not seen it, a very nice plane. Very nice plane. And Trump's plan at the end of his term is to donate this very nice plane to his own presidential library. Because as you know, no presidential library,

no library really is complete without a luxury airplane. Even if this is legal, the conflict of interest here is obvious. It is incredibly corrupt looking, at the very least. But here's the thing. Usually, something like this, I think, would come with a cover-up. With Trump, there's never a cover-up. I could say, no, no, no, don't give us, I want to pay you a billion or 400 million or whatever it is. Or I could say, thank you very much. People are supposed to be hiding what they're doing.

When it happens just out in the open like this, I think it becomes hard for a political system, even the media to know what to do with it. But the biggest area of corruption for the Trump family right now, the soft underbelly, I think, of this administration is not airplanes. It's crypto. President Trump and his family's growing crypto empire. Trump is a stakeholder in something he also is a chief regulator of. And the Trump family is indeed cashing in. Chinese billionaire Justin Sun publicly disclosed a $75 million investment. From a $2 billion deal with a foreign government.

Pakistan becoming the latest to partner with the World Liberty Financial. World Liberty Financial. World Liberty Financial. The Donald Trump meme coin. Which now has a value of about 2.5 billion dollars. A high-powered dinner for a price. Looking to become the country's largest bitcoin miner, its own dollar peg stable coin, USD1.

This is unprecedented. And I think it's gonna change our modern financial system forever. Ooh! Steve Bannon famously talked about using muzzle velocity as a strategy, doing so much so quickly, they overwhelm the ability of the media to cover it.

What the Trump family is doing with crypto is muzzle velocity for corruption. There are all these different companies and coins. It is almost impossible to keep track. So that's what I wanted to do with this episode. Try to track at least some of it and the person who's gonna help me out is Zeke Fox. He's an investigative reporter at Bloomberg, the author of the fantastic book Number Go Up! Inside Crypto's Wild Rise and Staggering Fall. And he's been reporting on many of these crypto projects. As always, my email, Ezra Klein show at nbtimes.com.

Zeke Fox, welcome to the show. Thanks, Ezra. So let's start back in July 2019. This is late in the first term, and you have Donald Trump tweeting as president, I am not a fan of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, which are not money, and whose value is highly volatile and based on thin air. So tell me about the Trump administration's first term in terms of its relationship with crypto. Yeah, that was pretty much his attitude whenever he was asked about crypto. It hadn't yet entered the mainstream.

The crypto Super Bowl, and we saw all these ads for Sam Bankman Fried's FTX, we had LeBron James endorsing crypto, that was 2022. It seemed like kind of a fringy thing for nerds. There's another time that he called Bitcoin a scam against the dollar. And during- I still leave you the whole second Trump administration is a scam against the dollar, but that's a different situation situation maybe. And he staffed his first administration with a lot of mainstream Wall Street people who

viewed crypto as this kind of unregulated threat to the financial system. So at that time, the Securities and Exchange Commission under Trump initiated some lawsuits against big crypto companies, some of the same ones that they were still fighting and angry about years later. You mentioned 2022 and this big cultural boom we have in that era. And this is the moment of NFTs are everywhere. And you have Matt Damon doing these ads and Larry David telling you not to miss out. And this is when something begins to change for Donald Trump. He's out of office. There's some reporting

that his cashflow situation is not what he would like it to be. And he releases a series of Trump digital trading cards. What are Trump digital trading cards? Yeah. So the technical term for these are NFTs or non fungible tokens. You might remember if you remember any of these, the board ape yacht club. These were like really ugly cartoons of monkeys that sold for three or $400,000 for a couple months there. And after NFTs had pretty much crashed, Trump came out with his own series. And these are digital pictures of Trump looking super jacked.

In some he's an astronaut, in others he's a hunter. And this was an idea that- So funny. Yes. Can you imagine releasing a series of commemorative cards about yourself that are not just pictures of you, but pictures of you looking tougher

and more heroic and more jacked? I'm gonna make this worse now. So this was an idea pitched to him by Bill Zanker, who used to run the learning annex and co-authored think big and kick ass with Trump. So they go way back and Bill Zanker had actually been working with Sylvester Stallone on a NFT collection that was going to be called Planet Sly. It didn't happen.

And it looks like they reuse the Planet sly art for the Trump NFTs. So you got Trump in all these like Stallone poses. It costs $99 to own one. And when you buy an NFT, you don't own the picture in the sense that like no one else can use it. No one else can look at it. You just have registered your ownership of this card on the blockchain. You can prove that you are the one who paid $99 to buy this image of Trump looking really jacked.

And then you could go sell it to someone else and they would then be registered as the owner on the blockchain. That's what makes it crypto. And they released about 200,000 of them. And Trump and his partners made an estimated 20 million bucks. 20 million bucks is not nothing for an incredibly cheap project. Yes. And he's endorsing a lot of stuff at this time, right? He went on to do, I think, Bibles. Yeah, so Trump Bibles.

Sneakers. Trump commemorative. Sneakers. Trump commemorative coins. Yes. But this is a little bit benign. This is not a currency. It is what it says it is. You can buy these Trump digital images and you have proof of ownership.

It's just a money making scheme. Yeah. And he held a couple events at Mar-a-Lago to celebrate this collection, and he invited people who had bought a certain number of the cards. And at these events, you know, he sounded a little bit more friendly to crypto. What kinds of people are coming to these events? So are the people buying enough of these cards crypto magnets who recognize they can get an audience with Donald Trump or these just rando MAGA diehards who want like a cheesecake calendar of their hero? It was more randos but there were a few crypto guys

who either thought that this was funny and that it would be cool to go to Mar-a-Lago. It didn't cost that much to buy enough to get in. It was maybe $10,000 worth of cards. And so what happens at this dinner? There's lots of questions about crypto. People are taping this, so the stuff he said came out later. And it's clear that Trump, he's sounding more positive, but it's clear that he doesn't entirely

have the subject down yet. For example, someone asks him about central bank digital currencies. This is something that crypto guys hate. They don't want the government to get into the crypto business and compete with them. And Trump says, oh, that could be interesting. When like the right answer would be, oh, I hate it.

That's a Democrat thing. I'm going to ban those. But he says generally about crypto, he says more and more, I'm for it. And there's something else going on at the same time. Joe Biden is president. Gary Gensler is his SEC chair. Gensler is a huge skeptic of crypto. He wants crypto regulated as securities for the most part, which crypto people hate.

What is the relationship at this point between the crypto world and the Biden administration? I think it's helpful to take a step back and think for a minute about what is happening in crypto. Because if you've never really thought about it too much, you might think about crypto as some sort of alternative to the dollar, like a currency we're going to use to buy our coffee or pay for our house or whatever. Bitcoin's now been around for 15 years. It's as old as Uber or WhatsApp, things that we use every day. That hasn't happened.

What has happened is that people have made thousands, maybe even millions of random coins that do all sorts of different things that people can gamble on. And tons and tons of these coins have turned out to be scams. So the Biden administration, as this insane bubble inflated, didn't really take a lot of action. Once the bubble popped and people started losing a lot of money, Gensler's SEC sued many of the biggest players in crypto and said, hey, the thing that you've been doing out in the open for the last couple of years, letting people gamble on all these coins, it's illegal. These are securities. They should be registered with us. They should be regulated like we regulate stocks. And by allowing people to trade them,

you've broken the law. And he's saying you basically have to stop. Now, they didn't stop. They were fighting the lawsuits. But Gensler became the industry's big enemy. And some in the industry realized that maybe they needed to get more involved in politics, that maybe some lobbying could help their cause. And these are people now with a lot of money. One thing that always fascinates me about the crypto folks is that their money went from, in many cases, pretty modest to billions so fast that they treat it like play money because to them it really does have a subtracted quality. You know, in politics it's a big

deal if a donor comes in with a million dollars, $10 million, $20 million, $30 million is a whale. If there's a donor in industry willing to do $30 million, politicians fall over themselves to get in front of that. Tell me a bit about the financial artillery that the crypto titans begin bringing to bear here. Sam Bankman Fried, he, he once said, you know, people say there's too much

money in politics. I'm actually surprised by how little there is. I mean, these politicians control huge sums of money. It's worth spending what he views as a little bit to try to influence them. So some other guys get this idea. And the one who I think is the most influential and kind of underappreciated is David Bailey. He's the chief executive officer of Bitcoin magazine. This is like a glossy publication for people who really like Bitcoin. And he got together

with a couple of friends and they started to strategize, how can we get Bitcoiners in front of the president? How can we get the president on our team? The real goal is how do we get Trump to come to our Bitcoin conference, which they have every year. And it's like a big rally where tens of thousands of Bitcoiners come in. Bitcoiners are a little different from crypto writ large. These guys think that Bitcoin is the one true coin.

They might even think most of the other ones are scams. And they think that Bitcoin's price is going to go to a million. It's going to solve all the world's problems, make us all really rich. So it turns out that one of David Bailey's friends has a connection to Paul Manafort, who had been Trump's campaign manager. They consult with him. They come up with a plan and David Bailey actually described some of his lobbying on a podcast called Galaxy Brains.

And this is what he said about approaching the Trump campaign. You know, Donald Trump is it's it's not about left versus right politics. As somebody at my company said the other day, it's like orange versus green politics. And Donald Trump is a vessel for us to let the game theory of the Bitcoin play out. And it has already generated a dividends and is going to generate dividends that are hard to even comprehend or calculate over the next four years? What he decided was that he'd get a few Bitcoiners and they would all max out.

And the most you can give to Trump and then I guess a bunch of campaign committees totals $844,600. And what Bailey said that he realized is that even like 10 people who gave that much could have a huge impact. And he described in this podcast his goals, which sounded to me to be totally insane. He said that he wanted the US government to start buying Bitcoin, which would start an international race to acquire Bitcoin and drive the price up to a million dollars per Bitcoin. If we act together in unison,

the price of Bitcoin is going to the fucking moon. I mean, this is the type of... When people say, what's going to send Bitcoin to a million dollars of Bitcoin? This is what sends it to a million dollars of Bitcoin. He said this all before Trump came to the conference, which he did. Before I get to the conference, which he did. Before I get to the conference, I want to note that goal for a second.

There's an, as you mentioned, older, more idealistic view of crypto that it's going to be new, untraceable, trustless currencies that will replace the things we use like dollars and yen to buy things now. I think that concept has sort of fallen by the wayside. Your great book, which I love and recommend to people, Number Go Up, is all about the embrace of the idea. The point here is more people buy in and then the number go up. Yes.

But for that to keep happening, you need more people to keep buying in. One way you could do that is mass scale advertising. You're paying people like Matt Damon and Larry David and supermodels and Tom Brady to advertise your crypto platforms to kind of get dumb money in. But the biggest money is government money. And if you could put government money,

and pretty a lot of government monies, into a scarce financial product, by definition you have driven up the price of that product for everybody owning it beforehand by a lot. In some ways, it's a completely insane place for the original anti-government Bitcoin idealist to end up. But if all you wanna do is make number go up, it'd be pretty sweet.

Right, I mean, it's helpful to picture a pyramid. Maybe at the top are the early adopters, the nerds, the anarchists, the ones who wanted untraceable money. But like by this time, the pyramid is getting pretty big. You brought in the dumb money. You've got Bitcoin ETFs that let people invest in Bitcoin through their IRAs. How are we going to keep making number go up? The base of the pyramid is really wide.

We need giant pools of money, governments to buy Bitcoin. All right. So they do get Donald Trump to come to the 2024 Bitcoin conference. You're at this conference, right? Yes. What's the vibe? First off, I thought, okay, maybe he'll do it by video. He'll say, hey, Bitcoiners, you know, have fun.

Great conference, whatever. Then it became clear he was coming. I thought he just run through the greatest hits. We'd get a speech about Crooked Hillary. Maybe he mentions Bitcoin once. No. When he took the stage at the end of the conference, he ran through everything that David Bailey had said he was going to do.

I said if Bitcoin is going to the moon, as we say, is going to the moon, I want America to be the nation that leads the way. And that's what's going to happen. And he said that he did not want China to get the crypto. Because if we don't do it, China is going to be doing, others are going to be doing it. Let's do it and do it right. Which is kind of funny. China has basically banned crypto. But David Bailey had suggested that a good way to get Trump on board would be to suggest

that there was some sort of competition with China. He said he would fire Gary Gensler and end the war on crypto. I will fire Gary Gensler and appoint a new SEC chairman. And the applause was so loud, they said it again. Let me say it again. On day one, I will fire Gary Gensler. Whoa! There's a funny dynamic to his speech. In some ways, this is one of those Trump speeches that I think even people who don't like him

enjoy watching because he's doing this thing where he's reading words on a page or on a teleprompter that it feels like he has never read or thought about, but he's offering his own color commentary along the way. I want to play a clip from it. In just 15 years, Bitcoin has gone from merely an idea posted anonymously on an internet message board to being the ninth most valuable asset anywhere in the world. Can you believe that?

Is that right? That's a big deal. Think of that. It's already bigger than Exxon Mobil. Soon it will be surpassing the entire market cap of silver. It's not bad. How about gold? How about gold? Let's go gold. So when I hear this, I don't hear a lot of conviction in Donald Trump. What I hear is somebody who is figuring out, who's been told what an audience wants him to say. He is himself a little bit surprised by what he's saying,

and he's here in the crowd. Just before he came on stage, they'd held the fundraiser. There was another part that I noticed that he seemed to be kind of freestyling, which came at the end. With your help, we will save our nation, we will restore a republic, and we will make America and Bitcoin bigger, better, stronger, richer, freer, and greater than ever before. Thank you all. Have a good time with your Bitcoin and your crypto and everything else that you're playing with.

And we're gonna make that one of the greatest industries on earth. Good luck and God bless you all. Thank you, God bless you. This is a very famous final moment. What did the room make of that? Ending the speech that way made it kind of clear that he didn't view this as a serious thing, because this Bitcoin conference audience, you cannot overstate how obsessed with Bitcoin they are. And it's not something to joke about

for them. They were not thrilled. But that's just because they're totally insane. They wanted him to say like the dollar will be illegal It will be only bitcoins now They're tough crowd to please So I think right now we're tracking a pretty normal political story. There's this industry, it's got a bunch of money, it's willing to give a bunch of money to candidates if those candidates support its goals. The candidates want money in order to be able to run their political operations. And it's a pretty normal story.

But then in September, 2024, now we're just two months out from the election, the Trump family announces something new, that they're gonna be starting something or they're heavily involved in something called World Liberty Financial. What at that point did they say World Liberty Financial was? The Trump sons first started tweeting about it, saying this was the future of finance. And Trump himself said, we're embracing the future with crypto and leaving the

slow and outdated big banks behind. And reading between the lines, it seemed like they were saying they were going to release some sort of platform for borrowing and lending crypto. There's a million of these. There's really not some unmet need in the market. And crypto people, some of the same ones who had been really excited about Trump's embrace of the industry, were pretty mad. Not everyone, but a lot of people told me, this looks like a cash grab.

This isn't what crypto is about, some sort of copycat project. And I thought this was pretty funny, because to me, it seemed like Trump was kind of catching on to how crypto really works. Because in crypto, buying other people's coins is kind of for suckers. By the time you hear about the coin, the insiders have already taken their positions at low prices. You're, you know, what they call exit liquidity. They're going to sell it to you at a high price.

That's how they make money. Exit liquidity is such a great name for that. The real way to make money in crypto is to make up your own coins and sell them to other people for real money. So to me, I'm like, okay, it seems like Trump's catching on. So tell me who's behind this though. There's some involvement of the kids. There's, I guess, the son of Steve Wyckoff,

who later becomes the Middle East envoy. Tell me who is actually running World Liberty Financial, and how do the Trumps make money off of it? It seemed like there were these two kind of long time online hustlers who were the real movers behind the project. One of them, his name is Chase Hero. And dig into his resume, it's a spotty one.

He has bragged about dealing weed. He used to sell weight loss colon cleanses online. He had a $149 a month, get rich quick program. I watched him on Logan Paul's podcast where he promoted a crypto coin that later went down 96%. And he's pretty much an unknown in crypto. He'd only ever done one cryptocurrency project that I could find.

It attracted a few million dollars and then suffered a big hack. I spent a long time watching all of his YouTube videos, of which there were many, and in one, he called himself the dirtbag of the internet and said that regulators should, quote, kick shitheads like me out. Then he said a quote about crypto that honestly I kind of agree with, but makes him kind of an odd business partner. In this video, he's streaming

while he drives his Rolls Royce. And he says, you can literally sell shit in a can, wrapped in piss, covered in human skin for a billion dollars if the story's right. Because people will buy it. And that is what is going on in the crypto space. And like I said in my other video, I'm not going to question the, the right and wrong of all that. All I'm saying is,

His business partner, who's also helping run world Liberty, Zachary Folkman, used to run a service called Date Hotter Girls, where he taught seminars about how to pick up women. If you want to take her home, try, like tell her, tell her about the awesome margaritas that you're going to make at your place. Tell her about the really sweet balcony you have at your place.

Tell her about, you know, your, you know, some video that you saw on YouTube that you have to show her. And, you know, get her home. But the fact of the matter is, is like, this is a very, very succinct way to go out and get consistent results. Now, the fact of the matter is, is this flashy? No, not at all.

But I mean, how many guys came here to learn how to be flashy? OK. How many guys came here to learn how to take girls home and bang them? So these are the Trump's crypto business partners. And I started looking into how this came to be. And it seems like what happened is that Chase Hero and Zach Folkman had met Steve Witkoff's son. Steve Witkoff is a real estate developer who golfs with Trump, longtime Trump friend. And Steve Wittkopf had introduced them to the Trump sons and

Trump senior and they'd pitched them on this world Liberty plan. And Trump is listed on world liberties website as chief crypto advocate Eric, Don Jr., and Baron are Web3 ambassadors. And this is also par for the course in crypto. World Liberty, they're not really quite saying exactly what it is, but they're going to sell some coins. And the World Liberty coins were, even by crypto standards, a really unappealing investment.

So if you buy World Liberty crypto coins, you do not receive a share of any money World Liberty makes. You cannot resell them unless the rules change in the future. And the first $30 million of the proceeds will be spent on... You can't resell them? No, they can't be resold.

How do you make money off of them? Presumably, they're going to change those rules. But you're trusting that they do. But so I buy a world of Bitcoin. It costs me just notionally, whatever, 30 bucks, 300 bucks. There's no liquidity in that? Literally impossible to resell. Maybe you could do it over the counter to your friend with like a handshake deal, but you can't. So I'm actually shocked.

Yes. And after this initial 30 million, 75% of all the money World Liberty makes, both from operations of whatever they will do in the future and from the token sale 75% is going to be paid to the Trumps as a fee. Okay, but initially it doesn't make that much money. Yeah, so Trump's not president yet and this offering is kind of rejected by the crypto

industry. At first, they'd only sold a couple million of the coins. I mean, still not bad. You tweet a couple times, you sell a couple million of coins that can't be resold. But it hadn't hit that payout level. Oh true. But then comes Justin Sun. Who is Justin Sun? Justin Sun is a controversial crypto billionaire born in China.

He started a blockchain called Tron, and he's best known for his love of publicity stunts. He bought lunch with Warren Buffett to try to pitch him about crypto. He bought a seat on one of Jeff Bezos' spaceships, which I don't think he ever used. And most recently, he bought a piece of conceptual art, a banana taped to a wall for $6 million.

So Justin Sun is facing a lawsuit filed by the SEC Justin Sun is facing a lawsuit filed by the SEC under Gary Gensler. And he comes in right after the election and buys $30 million of these unresellable World Liberty tokens, which pushes them over the line so that the Trumps would, in fact, receive a payout. And, Sun says at the time to my colleague that he just liked the project, he was not expecting anything from it, but he's immediately named an advisor to World Liberty, one of maybe 10 people in the industry who are, So now he's in business with the Trumps too. And he says publicly that he's triggered this payout to them. Is that accurate?

He makes a lot of noise about the purchase, and the rules of the game are clear to everyone. And in case the Trumps did not know about this, just a few weeks later, he goes to a crypto conference in Abu Dhabi, also hosted by Bitcoin magazine's David Bailey. And the small world. Yes. At that conference, he is photographed with Steve Witkoff, the envoy, who also plays a

big role at World Liberty. He's now said he divested, but Justin Sun gets in front of him there. We don't know what was said, but after that, maybe a few weeks later, Justin Sun buys another $45 million of World Liberty's token. Which at this point is now just doing a 75% payout to the Trumps, correct? Yeah. His purchase of World Liberty coins meant that the Trumps were going to get something like 56 million in a payout based on just what he bought. We should say a few weeks after Justin Sun finished buying his $75 million of World Liberty tokens, his SEC case was put on hold and no explanation was given.

The SEC did put a lot of other crypto put on hold and no explanation was given. The SEC did put a lot of other crypto cases on hold, but this is like a very favorable outcome for him and one that is really valuable. Okay, so let's back up for a minute. You've got a crypto figure, but let's not call it a crypto figure. You've got someone in the finance industry. They are under SEC investigation for fraud. And what they have done is they have found a way to put $56 million, publicly and legally, in the pocket of the family that is about to or just

has won the election and will direct the SEC afterwards. I think somebody listening to this might say, isn't that usually illegal? It wouldn't that be understood under normal law as a bribe? Could just, I guess the question I'm asking you is, could Justin's son have just walked up to Eric Trump with a check? Could he have just gone to him and said, hey, I think you guys are great. I'm into the whole Trump project. I like the branding.

I like the aesthetic. I like the vibes. I'm the aesthetic. I like the vibes. I'm not saying I want anything from you. Here's $56 million of walking around money. Would that be legal? I'm not entirely sure. Maybe it would be. I mean, I think that the emoluments clause

only applies to payments from foreign governments, but I'm not an expert on this. To me me it seems like this is just not a situation that was ever contemplated by the people who made laws about what presidents could and couldn't do. What's funny is you couldn't do it for the campaign. You mentioned earlier that the max you could donate to the campaign directly into some associated official party organs is fairly limited.

If you wanted to say, put $56 million into Trump's official campaign account, you couldn't. But you can put it into his crypto coin, which triggers direct payments into his family's bank accounts. Yes. I mean, remember first time around, there was a lot of controversy over people spending money at the Trump Hotel in DC. I mean, that looks quaint. That was a couple hundred thousand dollars. You know, now people are sending millions to buy Trump's coins. Tens of millions. The thing about the crypto play here is it's so much more scalable.

The numbers, the number go up. Yes, and they ended up selling out. They sold all the tokens that they had offered, total of $550 million worth. So that meant $400 million to the Trumps based on the terms of the offering as I read them. Eric Trump has said, quote, "'It's one of the more successful things we've ever done.

Do we know who bought this $550 million of world Liberty coins? So the way crypto works, you can hold your cryptocurrency in an anonymous wallet. You're only identified by a string of random letters and numbers. So we can go on the blockchain. We can see which anonymous wallets have sent money to buy World Liberty tokens, but we don't know who those people are

unless there's other clues or if the people announce it publicly. So Justin's son was a little bit unusual here in that he went and made his purchase very public. But in theory, there could be somebody else, some financier in Saudi Arabia, some Latin American influence peddler who buys 50 million or 20 million or whatever it is, does not say anything publicly but sends a signal message to somebody who knows the Trumps,

saying, hey, could you let me know I did this, that I'm on their side, I believe in what they're doing, I want to help out. For sure. I mean, you're giving me an idea. You could save 20 million bucks just telling me that it, you're like, this is my wallet. Fair enough. All right. So, let's go to a different moment here. Trump wins the election.

Now it's January 17th, three days before Trump will be inaugurated as president for the second time. And the Trump family, I guess, announces, releases a meme coin. What's a meme coin and what is Trump's meme coin? How does his work? So crypto totally collapsed in 2022, but has since really recovered. And you might think that maybe it's recovered because they finally came up with a good use for crypto and now it's actually going to revolutionize finance. No, the thing that's really been popular in the last couple of years in crypto is meme

coins. And what that means are coins that do not claim to ever do anything. So like Dogecoin is kind of the original meme coin. It's just a picture of a dog and you're going to buy it because you think other people will buy it and it might go up. Pure number go up technology. Exactly. Pure gambling.

Yes. It's a new kind of gambling game. It's kind of like the GameStop bubble on the stock market. It's like a pump and dump scheme, but it's consensual. The people involved know what they're doing. We're all going to pump up this coin and we all think we're the ones who are going to get out at the top before it inevitably collapses. And the only person who's really guaranteed to make money is the person who created the

coin. It cost them nothing. And then anyone that they told about it, who's able to get in, you know, in the first minutes when the price is low. So before Trump, this was mainly something that kind of like C-list celebrities did. Caitlyn Jenner, Iggy Azalea, Hailey Welch, who was famous from that Hawk Tuah video, they would release meme coins. And when you buy a meme coin, you're kind of gambling on how much attention is this

going to get. Often, they only last for like hours or a day or two before people start to get cold feet and the coin collapses. So he announces Trump coin, by far the biggest celebrity to ever do a meme coin. I mean, he's about to be president. Their price promptly soars up to $72 a coin. From under 10. From nothing.

I cannot describe. I just, I need to take a second here. I cannot describe how crazy it is if he did this. One of his superpowers, is it some of the way that you protect against corruption, we were talking about what is and isn't legal before, is it there are things you don't do not because it's illegal, but because the assumption is it would be so unfathomably politically lethal To engage in corruption of that scale and of that order

That at least I think in the way the framers set up this government the ideas you'd be impeached immediately And certainly in the modern era the press would be all over you and it would be just a huge scandal and you would begin your modern era, the press would be all over you and it would be just a huge scandal and you would begin your administration caught up in one of the biggest financial corruption scandals and self-dealing scandals in history. And this guy with his bizarre genius for shamelessness by just doing it all so unbelievably directly, the coin is called Trump, he's just promoting it himself. It's all for him. He's just promoting it himself. It's all for him. He's about to become president.

He has control of the Republican Party, so they're not going to do anything to him, and they control Congress. He sort of overwhelms the system's capacity to know what to do about him because it never had any defense for something so over the line that just the administration refuses to treat as a problem. I mean, the thing that is supposed to happen in government is somebody says, hey, you're taking a bribe. You're trying to make yourself rich off of this.

And he says, oh, of course I'm not. I would never do. How dare you impugn my integrity? And with Trump, it's like, you're trying to make yourself rich off of this. And he's like, yeah, I mean, wouldn't you? And you're like, oh. To me, it's like,

it's like, imagine if he, leading up to his inauguration, lined the national mall with Trump's slots. And these slots had like a terrible payout compared to regular slots. Like, it's ridiculous. But you slots had like a terrible payout compared to regular slots. Like it's ridiculous. You could also put a hundred million dollars into the one in the machines and let him know you did it. So how does he make money off of this? How does the family make money off of the Trump coin?

Basically at the beginning of the game, he has one billion coins. They cost him nothing to make and he's selling them to people at various prices. It's kind of complicated, but I think 200 million coins were sold to the public and they netted around $300 million. At this point, Trump still has 80% of the coins. The price is around $12. So Trump is sitting on about $ billion dollars worth of his meme coin Now if he starts to sell the price would likely collapse

Also, the way that it's set up. He's not allowed to sell for a few months So something weird just happened around this coin there's a company called freight technologies and they just happened around this coin. There's a company called Freight Technologies. And they announced openly that they were buying up $20 million of Trump's meme coin. And they said it was, quote, an effective way to advocate for fair, balanced, and free trade between Mexico and the US.

Now, most of the time when people buy meme coins, they don't think it's an effective way to advocate for trade between Mexico and the US. So what is a company like that, that is publicly announcing a multi-million dollar investment in the Trump meme coin doing? What are they saying this meme coin investment is buying them? It seems like those guys are talking about using it to buy access, but actually there's like a second weird thing that's happening that's almost a derivative of this meme coin boom, this new crypto boom, where companies on the stock market are realizing that if they start talking about crypto, or start saying that they're buying crypto, investors who are excited by

this will drive up their stock price. But crypto and Trump coin are different. Buying Trump coin is not the same as saying I'm investing in Bitcoin or ether. Right. I mean, if I was going to meet the president, I'd want to pull out my crypto wallet and show them that I had some Trump coin in it. Yeah. I mean, it seems like a obvious way to get in good with him.

And in case he misses the message, he's having dinner with all these guys. Yeah. Tell me about the dinner on May 22nd. Who gets to be at this dinner? How do you get in? So, over the last few weeks, the Trump meme coin announced kind of a contest. And whoever held the most would get to go to this special dinner at Trump's golf club outside DC. And the top 25 got like a more private audience.

It ended up being that it was going to cost you about $2 million to get in the top 25. And then the top 220 get in the door for this bigger event. And the cutoff ended up being about $50,000 of Trump meme coin to get in the door. So, I mean, he's auctioning access to the president. And I guess you could say, is that really any different? Don't they do this with bundlers and other kinds of campaign finance donors all the time? I mean, I think he's been having other dinners with donors where it's

cost a million dollars to get into the dinner, things like that. And right, other presidents have done things like that too. And the funny thing with the meme coin is that these recent purchases don't even necessarily directly benefit him because the vast majority of his profits came from the initial sale. So does it matter to them if the price of the meme coin goes up and down? I mean, in theory, because if the price is higher when they sell further tranches, they make more money? Yeah, so Trump holds 80% of the coins.

If he starts selling, he could easily collapse the price. So if you go buy the Trump meme coin now and you push the price up a little bit that is helping Trump when he goes to sell his coins, but he's not getting the money that you pay for the meme coin now. He's already sold his first tranche and the rest he's sitting on. It doesn't seem obvious to me that in a world where he wants to sell at some point a hundred million dollars more of his own meme coin because he's got eight hundred million of them or whatever it is, that yes,

that would push the market down. But if he is this lever that nobody else has to push the market back up or to push it up right before he sells or to make it clear to anybody that if they buy in at a big level, they might get to go to the next dinner. This actually does seem like it benefits him. I mean, he chooses the moment at which it benefits him. But you have the massive assets in an asset class, where the worth of that asset changes, depending on how much people believe buying it will give them access and influence with you. And you put out a big sign saying, look how much access and influence buying a bunch of these

will give you with me. That seems good for the future price of your asset, if and when you decide to sell more of it. If he wants to unload all $10 billion of Trump meme coin, though, it's gonna take a lot of dinners. Sure, but you can do it a hundred million bucks at a time and that's not nothing. True.

Look, I'd like to sell a 100 million dollars of a meme coin. You probably could. I'd be stoked. So then in March, 2025, the Trump family through the World Liberty Financial Vehicle announces a new stable coin called USD1. What is that coin and how do they make money off of it? So a stable coin is a form of cryptocurrency that's backed one to one with real US dollars. So a stable coin is always gonna be worth a dollar because in theory, you could take that stable coin

to its issuer and exchange it for a real dollar. There's another stable coin called Tether, and it's so popular that there's now $150 billion of Tether out there, and that company is extremely profitable. The reason this is profitable is because the stable coins generally don't pay interest. So if I create 150 billion stable coins, I then I'm sitting on 150 billion real dollars,

I can go stick those in interest bearing investments and keep that money for myself. You can sort of think of a stablecoin as like a bank. So if the Trumps are creating their own stablecoin, USD1, it's like they've created the Bank of Trump. It issues Trump bucks. And if you use USD1, if you buy USD1, it's like you're making a big deposit at the Bank of Trump and you're not receiving any interest.

The creators of the stablecoin are the ones that are going to make money on that. So they create this stablecoin. And then a few weeks ago in Dubai, it is announced by Steve Wicoff's son that a fund backed by Abu Dhabi was going to buy $2 billion worth of the Trump stablecoin, $2 billion, and use it to make an investment in the crypto platform Binance. And Zach Witkoff says, quote, we thank MGX, which is the name of the fund backed by Abu Dhabi, and Binance for their trust in us. This is only the beginning.

How would you describe to me why a fund backed by Abu Dhabi would want to use the Trump stable coin as its currency for making this investment? I wouldn't actually look at them as the main player here. CZ, Chang Peng Zhao, the owner of Binance, which is the biggest crypto company in the world, was selling part of his company to this Abu Dhabi-backed fund. Let me tell you a little bit about CZ. Yes, because CZ, his situation is not straightforward. Yeah, so he's the most successful guy in crypto. His company is worth something like, who knows, $100 billion. But he was just released from a halfway house in September. He pleaded guilty to failing to take

required measures to prevent terrorists, child abusers, entities and sanctioned nations, entities and sanctioned nations, criminal groups, from using his exchange. Binance was fined $4 billion and CZ served a short sentence in prison. In prison in what country? Here in the US. So this is a guy, he's still running Binance? He still owns it. As part of the settlement, he stepped down. Okay. So he's a very central crypto figure. He has just been in jail. No running Binance? He still owns it. As part of the settlement, he stepped down. So he's a very central crypto figure.

He has just been in jail. He's been in a lot of other, I mean, there's been a lot of other legal stuff swirling around in the sense that he's a pretty shady character. It seems pretty widespread to me. He's also being sued by the SEC for illegally running a crypto exchange in the US. One of the leaked messages that came out in this case was, bro, we are running an illegal crypto exchange in the US. Something like that.

It looks really bad. So if we go back to December, right after Trump's win, CZ was also at that Bitcoin conference in Abu Dhabi hosted with David Bailey. And I've reported that he met with Steve Witkoff there, Trump's envoy, who played an important role at World Liberty, and that after that meeting, World Liberty and Binance began talking about some sort of business deal. We don't know the details. CZ afterwards tweeted that it was fake news. CZ has also been pushing for a presidential pardon.

So the fund was going to give CZ $2 billion, this Abu Dhabi-backed fund. Now, CZ can do anything with that $2 billion, this Abu Dhabi-backed fund. Now CZ can do anything with that $2 billion that he wants. And what this announcement is saying is that CZ is going to put that $2 billion in USD-1 in the bank of Trump. And that's enough that world Liberty could quite easily earn $50 million a year in interest. And as we know, the terms of World Liberty dictate that whatever they do earn, the Trumps will get three quarters. So as long as CZ keeps his money in USD-1, the Trumps are earning interest on this, and

he's pushing for a part in. It's like muzzle velocity for political corruption here. There are so many stories that on their own seem like they should be era defining political scandals. But the big picture that I see emerging, when I track this story from Trump trading cards where he looks like a firefighter or whatever, all the way to the Trump stablecoin, Trump media launching ETFs, is that the Trump family has been groping

its way, evolving learning how to open up a lot of avenues to let people invest in various crypto schemes of theirs. For a long time we've known crypto is used for drug deals, it's used on the black markets, we've known it's used for things that you don't want to see regulated. And they seem to me to have figured out another very obvious use case, which is that you can do forms of payoffs that would be regulated if you tried to do them with the Trump campaign, but you can do them with crypto, and you can have all kinds of foreign figures do it, right? It's very, very, very Wild West compared to other things in the US financial system.

And they're just making hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe over time billions of dollars from this. It all looks like astonishingly corrupt to me. Am I wrong? Am I missing? Can you give me an exculpatory version of this? I mean, I think what the Trumps have said about it is that we can't be bought. They can't deny that people are giving them money, but their claim is that they are still acting in what they believe to be the US's best interest. But the conflicts of interest are so obvious. I mean, we talk about right now, Congress is debating stable coin regulation.

Is it going to be favorable to the president's coin? Would people in his party want to pass rules that would be favorable to the president's coin would people in his party want to pass rules that would? Be bad for the president's quantum. It seems unlikely or meme coins since they really took off recently The rules around them were not clear and was Trump's SEC gonna pass a rule saying oh Actually, this is an illegal offering. You can't do that. I mean actually, this is an illegal offering. You can't do that. I mean, it would be pretty hard for them to do that with the president having just done a big meme coin offering. And in fact, once Trump's appointees took over at the SEC, they announced that meme coins were collectibles, like beanie babies, and that the rules did not apply. I think one way you could look at this is you could say,

this is maybe a little bit more bald faced, but this is just the kind of political corruption we see all the time. You have Hunter Biden serving on Ukrainian energy boards and getting payouts. And this is an old thing where the family members of the president seem to get sweetheart deals and seem to sell things at inflated prices. But this feels different to me, both because of the sums involved. I think that the scale is so different that it's a different thing. Yeah.

Like Hunter Biden should not be taking advantage of his being the president's son to sell his terrible art to mystery buyers for hundreds of thousands of dollars, but how much juice with Joe Biden is that going to buy you? This is like Trump himself making hundreds of millions of dollars. It's hard to believe that that would not influence him. The numbers are so big. Then there's this other dynamic here, which is that the regulation on this industry is completely unformed. This is not like other industries where we have

structured regulations around the energy industry, around most of the financial industry. If you want to get into equities, we have a structured regulatory architecture for that. Here, it's all Wild West. The crypto industry has been trying to win over the Trump administration. Now, it's not just that the Trump administration is getting

campaign donations from the crypto industry. It's that they have directly invested themselves, their family, their revenue streams. As Eric Trump said, one of the most successful things that the Trump family has ever done now depends on this extremely lax regulatory architecture continuing. And by the way, also depends on very lax political corruption laws around this in a way that don't exist for other forms of potential payouts.

I'll give you an example that to me, I think is pretty significant. In Number Go Up, I was investigating the use of stable coins. And I found that this was pre Trump's coin, but that stable coins were fueling this epidemic of scams where Americans were being catfished by spam messages, tricked into sending money for cryptocurrency investing schemes, and then sending huge amounts of money

through stablecoins overseas, where it would never be seen again. And on the other end of that, that in Southeast Asia, there's huge compounds where tens of thousands of people are forced to work as scammers under threat of torture or worse and are spending all day like sending these spam messages and trying to trick people.

Stablecoins enables this because- This is stuff where you get the message and it's like, hey, didn't we have plans to go dinner tonight? Right. And I went to Cambodia to investigate this and there's stores all over the place where you can walk in, anonymously transfer your stablecoins and walk out with a brick of cash. And so, like if the scammers were using Visa or MasterCard or bank wires, this would be much harder.

It would never reach the scale that it has. Estimates are that like Americans are losing tens of billions of dollars to these types of crypto scams. You could imagine a stable coin regulation that would require more of the same kind of know your customer anti money laundering rules that apply to PayPal, Visa, MasterCard. But is that going to happen when it would disadvantage the president's, you know, world liberty startup? So these are like real things that are being debated right now. How do all the crypto idealists feel about

where this is going? The people who thought we'd have this leaderless, decentralized, borderless world where money worked completely differently, where the returns to being powerful and influential and connected began to dissolve. There's a real utopian strain in all this for a very long time. When they see it going in this direction,

are there people who are sad about it? Those people, by and large, are long gone. And the industry now, sure, there's some people who are criticizing Trump's crypto ventures. But mostly, they're just really psyched that the industry is being deregulated and number go up. Do you have a ballpark estimate at this point on how much the Trump family seems to have made off of crypto?

At least $700 million. Oh, that's not small. It's a lot of money. Yeah, Trump's maybe worth four or five billion. What do people think now? People have argued about this for a long time. Yeah, however rich he is, it's not nothing. I think that is a good place to end.

So also final question, what are three books you recommend to the audience? So one book I've been reading recently that I really love is called A Distant Mirror, The Calamitous Fourteenth Century by Barbara Tuchman. It's about France in the 14th century, but during the like hundred years war, after the Black Plague.

But what really stands out to me is it really makes history weird. Like you realize these people's lives were not like our lives. Like ordinary people's lives were very different and they saw the world in a totally different way than we did and they just seen you know humanity almost wiped out by a plague that they didn't understand. Another one I've liked recently was Nixonland by Rick Perlstein. It's sort of like reading the newspaper every day, but

during the Nixon years. And you have the benefit of hindsight and all sorts of oval office tapes. It's got a great eye for detail. Then a novel I really liked recently is called Gretel and the Great War is by Adam Sachs. It's a collection of interconnected fables set in early 20th century Vienna. It's kind of like a literary puzzle. It's really inventive. It's very original, but also a portrait of Jewish Europe before the rise of Nazism is really funny. Full disclosure, I've admired his writing since we were children, and I kind of owe him one for talking him into doing something really dumb in high school. Zeke Fox, thank you very much. Thanks, Ezra. This episode of the Ezra Klan show is produced by Annie Galvin.

Fact checking by Michelle Harris, our senior engineer is Jeff Gelb with the additional mixing by Amin Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Marie Cassione, Roland Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobel, Kristen Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Christina Samiluski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times opinion audio is Annie Rose Strasser and special thanks to Talbot County Free Library.