The Fighter & The Kid - Ep. 810: Sammy The Bull Would Like To Thank John Gotti

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

Sammy the Bull Gravano captivates the boys with his incredible life story including how he survived 6 1/2 years in solitary confinement, why John Gotti used him as a human lie detector, how Gotti's plan to destroy Sammy ultimately backfired, the principles that distinguish La Cosa Nostra from other organized crime institutions, becoming Native American in prison and the culture shock of reintegrating after almost 20 years behind bars, and his unexpected post-prison acting career--  For more Sammy The Bull - https://sammythebull.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Okay, well, I'm grumbling the bull by the horns and Fort Wayne Indiana do are you alive? 14 you grab the bull yeah Indiana you doing a little yeah, you know Standin for wise guys come on out Oh, July 14, Indiana July 14 through 16 and then San Diego Lafactory downtown San Diego July 21st through the 23rd bulls out there too good. There's bulls in San Diego Dude and I'm also grab the bulls by the horn and bolts more. Really? Yeah, send me the bull. All right.

All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. I'll tell you what.

Now, if you like watching my little TV show called, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, got it. Wow. Best up. Wow. Best up. You go watch that on YouTube, but forget all that. That's a lot of fun.

We got some fun stuff coming up. We got Brookfield, Wisconsin. If you're in Milwaukee or anywhere around there, I'm going to the bulls. I'm grabbing the bull by the horns out there. I'm going to July 21, 22, 22, 23. I'll be at the Milwaukee improv. Now there's actually going to be bulls and aes.

There are definitely bulls and aes in Texas. Tell my cat's ladies at your show. Oh, yeah. Oh, cat's in the July 28, 29, 30. They opened up. I'm excited. Nashville 10th. Yes, the fun ones do. Zainey's August 26, 27.

It says 25 there, but it's actually 26, 27. Then I got Spacane Washington, Spookane Common Club September 28, 24. I want to talk about UFC. Is there a way to bet on the UFC? Dude, there's definitely a way to bet on the UFC. And you watch and make money with Draftking Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of the UFC

and they have a heavy weight off for this weekend's fight with a special parlay for all the listeners and viewers of Fire and the Kid. Right now, all customers can place the same game parlay for Saturday's fight. If it hits, you have double your winnings. Download the Draftking Sportsbook app now. Use promo code fighter, new customer can bet $5

on any UFC 276 fighter to win and get 100 dollars in free bets no matter what that's code fighter this Saturday at draft king sports book the official sports brand partner of the UFC Minimaging and elderly restrictions apply C-Shote news for details Hide the running back cause we back at it again We gon' keep it moving like it's never gonna end When it was brinning, when it was brighting When it was just talkin' to friends we got the kid Caling on the left with the fighter on the right Hey, how'd they do it right? Cause we comin' at you lock Back with the team, I'd be keepin' OG, my CTV

I had to do it Yes we did cause we back at it again It's the fighter in the kid It's the fighter in the kid Back at it again. It's the fight only the kids Fight only the kids Back at it again. It's the fight only the kids Fight only the kids Back at it again. It's the fight only the kids Fight only the kids

It's the fight only the kids It's the fight only the kids This is really the fight only the kids We're out. Come on, buddy. I remember Reagan says, I'm going to donate $500 million to fight organized crime. Nobody can't. I said, $500 million broke back then. He's putting, it's got a big money to buy this.

You're going ass-down? It's like, it a threat to me. Yeah. You got to put a lot of firepower for your meal back in the day. Back in those days, it's like, that's really, really. That's true. So I have free day that was a little bit of a problem. So when Ronald Reagan declared war on organized crime and Giuliani said the same thing, he basically

said, if you're a member of an organized crime family, I'm declaring war on organized crime and Giuliani said the same thing. He basically said if you're a member of an organized crime family, I'm declaring war on you. What did you guys think about that? Because you guys, I remember when the Fulton Fish Market caught fire mysteriously. Well, I mean it was a problem. You know when you have multiple agencies like that, you're f**king with the government. You've got state organized crime, the federal law guys crime, bureaus, different states putting their, you know, people, prosecutors together. It's a war and it's hard to fight them. They make the laws. So you're fighting people that don't lose. They don't lose. They don't lose. It all lose the government? No, no, the FBI doesn't lose.

It's on his beetle. Right. We're having 98% conviction rate. Yeah. Why do you think that is? They have the best lawyers. Correct. They have the best investigators.

You know, I did time, I did 22 years in prison, so I was with so many guys, especially black guys, timed around and said, say me what do you think on this case? I think you're dead why? Because you got some broken down fucking lawyer. Yeah, and your prosecutors the next cop and next drunk and They have a team of magnificent lawyers They have the FBI is they're, and they have a 98% conviction rate because they make the laws.

So that's what you're up for. Most people think they're smarter than the FBI. Most people think they're smarter than the FBI, but the FBI's got some smart, especially organized crimes, right? They got some smart. And the laws, I mean, they have bugs, they have people confidential informants.

They got everything going for them. So you're going into a fight. You know, I'm looking at these guys in this room over there, all these big motherfuckers that I mean, I'm going to fight them, the bolted them. I've got to be at my mind if I think I'm going to win. I'm going to fight. But, it's the same thing. I got to just, I got to't. This is the same. I'm gonna do it. I gotta do it intro, but people don't know, because for me, people don't understand.

My generation, Sammy the Bull, Gervano, the man sitting here was the under boss. That means he was the number two guy in the most powerful organized crime family in the United States. And that was not a matter of dispute. The boss of all bosses was Costalano who sat at the head of the commission on all the other crime families from all over the country which sit under him and take orders from him.

And Sammy was the under boss of the Gambino crime family. And the guy really who started to become the guy who called all the shots, because you were the guy that ultimately, everybody seemed to be respecting, wanting to be around, and it became evident to John Gotti that you were probably going to take over in one way or another, right? Yeah, he became very alert. John Gotti was a complicated guy because he's an egomaniac.

He's a narcissist. And so everything meant something to him. He was concerned with a lot of things, what made after we took over. Frank and the Chico was the main player. He got blown up four months after the cast, the Atlanta hit. But after a while, I'm gonna give you a quick story that a captain in the Genevieve family came to John and the club, and I know it because guys were around

and they said, John, you know how to pick them, meaning that I'm the underboss. He said, why? He said, Sammy, he says, you can't do a job in the city no more unless you get a fucking wink in a nod from him Became a super powerhouse. Yeah now me if somebody told me about one of my people I would say that's great. You need something done I'll talk to them. I get it done. That's it tremendous asset But he looked at it and as a narcissist would

Jealous, you don't want somebody to be his equal. That's his ego, right? And I you know, I'm I Would say if if you go back you look over like all the history all that stuff a lot of the Kind of the downfall of the the organized crime, a lot of it was due to God's ego. When you think about the moves he made as far as getting into the drug business, it's like, you know, listen out. But Luciano even said, like, we don't want to get involved with drugs because that's what attracts the fact. Yeah. Like, the drug was, we don't need to do it. You guys doing all the stuff. He wanted to involve with the drugs and then also, you know, you guys want to fly under the radar.

He has $2,000 suits on. He's doing interviews. He's on the cover of time. You know, it's like this, he wanted to be this celebrity. So you get all this attention. So to me, I know people want to, they, I think the easy out in the way the media portrayed it is. Oh, Sammy is the reason they fell. Like, man, how do you was God? I think he was too wild and narcissists and egos. The you know, after I left, I was with the government for quite

a while. It was living in Quantico, it's a military base that they had me put there. And they told me John was a blessing. Oh, yeah, I said, what do you mean? He gave us the entire mafia or five families the whole thing the whole on a silver platter Because the recordings of the The court's recordings because of the way he dressed the news media But also he had everybody come kiss his ring like every every once a week

They'd have to come to the Ravenite Club the whole the entire every everybody who's made and come and say hi on the street But that's the other thing. Yeah, the FBI is like yeah, but that but they're not gonna keep busing off that but the Ravenite but the who is no He didn't care about that be the Ravenite Club was bought and they knew it But he would still grow up stairs and talk about it Yeah, that's a huge issue. Yes. I'm saying that so many of these guys, the FBI correct me for wrong. They didn't, they didn't, they didn't even know who they were. But until they had, they came out and now you're kissing John, they were like, well, that guy's a, that guy and that guy. And that guy. And that guy was an important guy. We know he was there. But if he wasn't important enough

that he was just doing his thing, he's under a captain, you're never going to see that guy. It's not a well known guy.. It's not gonna go sitting with the boys What this did was take those guys who were never even really known we knew who they were But not the government now they're going there and reporting like he's saying kiss the ring not actually kissing the ring But they're coming in now they're grabbing me and they're telling me say me, but they never had a picture of me. Now I'm walking in, I see guys with cameras, the news is here, the government is here,

what are we, what are they doing? You talked to them, please. I said, I did, I did, he's the boss, whatever he wants, I did talk to him. I grabbed his brother, Jeannie, Jeannie, and I said, Jeannie, I said, Jeannie, go over his house at night. You're his brother, you're a friend of ours. He was actually a captain.

So I said, tell him that all the old times everybody's complaining, it's insane what we're doing. He said, me, I did that. And what did he tell you? He said, when you want to talk to me about mommy or the kids of people, you might brother come and talk to me. You want to talk about goes and ostrac, go to a Sammy. Oh wow.

I said he told you that? Yeah. So listen to the story. Listen to how Machiavellian Goddard was. It's crazy. But I'm going to talk to him. I was telling him a story. I'll tell you the story.

That when the guy with the Genevieve's people said about you can't do a job, unless you're gonna wake up and nod from Sammy, another guy came in and capped in from the Colombo family and said, John, I was at Tattles last week. On Tuesday, Sammy does his books and meets his guys and other people. And I went there, 60 fucking guys there.

Made guys captains underborses, union bosses. This guy is a fucking powerhouse, he's become. Now that struck John in a way. He was doing a lot of work. I'm sending him on missions. He wants to take me out. He could doing a lot of work. I'm sending him on missions. He wants to take me out. He could take over tomorrow with the power that he has now. So he's trying to undermine me.

That's the tapes he got caught on. And he's telling Frank and LeCasio to go out basically and tell the captains, send me losses, mind, bro. He's killing fucking people, taking over their businesses, he's killing people, taking over the unions, both of them not true. And I'll tell you the reason why, because you can't just kill you run the boss if he's liked, if he's loved,

if he's bringing in money to the family, he's doing work. Now, what makes it even stronger is that he's sending me on hits to get things done. As the under boss, you stop that at the captain level. As the under boss, I'm going on the street. So you guys have to hit. He tells me, send me, go with them, make sure it gets done. John, I'm the under boss, bro.

I did that, you know, I'm up on a whole not a level now. God, take you got you got to go there. Get this done. Okay. So I go. Now you two guys, when I'm not around, you're just talking and some guys got caught on tape. Oh my God, this fucking Sam, man, just sitting on his fucking ass, giving orders. He's on the street where they got him with us. They don't work. They love you for that. And he, C. John forced that situation. That was him back.

So when I come into the club, you guys are sitting there, you jump up, you see, hey, send me, you love me for what I'm doing. I'm not just sitting on, I'm one of you. Yeah, the respect of it. I'm getting the respect. So that's where this all created. He created it basically himself. And then all my ways, I guess. And so now he's starting to spread rumors that

I'm doing this thing because he has a plan to take me up. But it's so silly because you're such a big earner, right? But because if you're making so much money, you know, and obviously afterwards the ego and our system comes comes in because making so much money. But it's all matter because he's making millions and millions of millions of millions. So what's when you're making five or ten million a year? It was different to one million a year less. But the important part is now we start in the worry that I could kill him. It take over. Now, were you thinking about that beyond? Oh, no, absolutely not. That was in your head. Never, never, never, never, why? Why? Why? Because I, why would I do that? Yeah. We took over the family together. Me and him. It's us against the world. Franky, the Chico died. It didn't want him as the boss originally, but that's a whole

not a story. Yeah. That's the one at a time. Yeah. Yeah. So let's stay with, we're at right now. Yeah. He wants to do it. So what's his plan? And I got to give him this. It was ingenious as a mobster. It's Remacivali to the tape. He turns around and he wants to get rid of me. But he can't because everybody would just say, if he could kill him, then we're all nothing to him.

So what is he doing this and putting these phony stories out? Then he says, Sammy, Frank and the Chico who I love was killed and you always thought it was chin. Was behind it. Vinnie the chin. Vinnie the chin, he was the boss of the Genevieve family. I think you're right, I got a little information. Take them out. Music to my ear. Music to my ear because I love Frankie the G-Gone. You're close with him, yeah? Very super close. So, Tom, I'm setting it up.

Tom, how are you gonna do it? I'm not gonna go through the whole story, it's too long. But I'm gonna say that I was setting it up, ready to go. And what's his plan? It took a long time to come out tapes, this, that people look up at it before I know it like to this point. So I go kill Chen. I kill Chen and I come back the next day.

How'd you make out? He's gone. I got Good he immediately kills me Chin hated him. He gets rid of chin He gets rid of his problem with me two problems. He goes through the gen of East people Sam I love the guy bro. He lost his mind. You could ask anybody who's killing people, taking over unions, taking over this. Then he came to me, that he killed him. As much as I loved him, I had to kill him. I killed him. About that. Savage.

Savage? It's savage, but it's ingenious. It is because he gets rid of the smoke of us. Yeah. Well, it was part of his downfall because he couldn't never keep his fucking mouth shut or as ego and then also you know He was Riding on tapes about you even before you were and then also, you know You guys have a code where you don't kill people outside the business and then you know tragically His son gets ran over by that neighbor and even if you do an accident that the neighbors the kid is on a bike

Shoot to the middle of the road the neighbor runs over the kid killed the kid you know happen that guy he disappeared you killed him tortured tortured yeah kill well he didn't he didn't do it he gave it to his good because he went to flower that was his wife that's right and they call him he said I'm in Florida that was his alibi that's what he did and his crew whoever did it still you don't make but still his orders to kill this dude who made a mistake.

But he's not in your business. So that's already he's breaking the rules. So the media wants to pretend John Gotti always lived by their code. But he was breaking it away before it. Yeah, many of times. That's right. Oh yeah, but I mean,

it's, forget codes and everything. It's an accident. Yes, a fucking accident. You can't kill somebody for an accident. Imagine I get up, you step on your toe, and you beat me after that. I'm still alive, but. You don't want those problems.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want those problems. No, I'm not going to step on you. I hate man. I don't want any problems. Sammy, go, Sammy.

Well, I don't even know, man, you want to shoot this thing with me all of a sudden. You're taking me to the airport. All of a sudden, I fucking disappear. I don't know. How do I know this isn't a head? You're setting me up with everything. The camera crew, everything is fake.

Did you ever worry about that, Sammy? No. No, right? But I was telling the girl that, Peyton, that how it comes back to me, it stuck in my brain all the time. I said, we got out, we, of the plane, we got in a truck, it was cameras, there was directors, lighting guys, sound guys, the whole nine yards, taking pictures,

everything is beautiful and we get in the car and we go to Manhattan Beach and we're gonna go to the beach and listen to that, they get my girl and they take her in one direction and they're taking me in another direction. Suspect. No, it's suspect. Here's the thing I think they'll be meeting us.

They'll be meeting us. The perfect hit. Yeah. They took her, they'll put her over there. I go to a meeting, bye bye. You never see me in the thing. The same thing here, son. Yeah, yeah.

I gotta work, don't man. But I've said, it's a perfect plan because he's what he does. He's got witnesses. He's got a heart as his witness. No, yeah, they had cameras, it was a whole course. There's got a god of a... It's true.

His witness is... Never enough. Now, he goes to the hotel and he gets three witnesses where he dropped me off at the hotel. He left in the car to people say and sent me one up to his room. Now sometimes you wish you he put a bullet in the back your head because the default you play volleyball. No, no, no, we didn't. We didn't know volleyball. I didn't let him sit behind me in the car, though. I don't know why. It's so, I asked him, I go, we were talking about, like I wanna know, because you were in the hole,

solitary confinement for six years, six and a half years, think about that. Six years, yeah. They put him in the, like you're alone, bro. And in the wintertime, you get one hour a week to go out in the yard. I'm sure the food's great. You're so alone, he was so desperate,

he grabbed this nurse's finger just to talk to him for a second. My question is, how did you speak to yourself? How do you fucking stay sane? Did they say, yeah, how did you not go crazy? I'm gonna off myself in three minutes. I was asked this question a lot of times, but I'm gonna answer it. I wanna talk about UFC, is there a way to bet on the UFC?

Dude, there's definitely a way to bet on the UFC. Can watch the fight campaign this Saturday live on Think Boy YouTube. We got a monster lineup coming for you guys. We got Trevor Wallace. The YouTube sensation, the Beast comic. We got Josh Thompson. We got Luke Rockold.

We'll all be there live for UFC 276. You can watch that on Think way at 7pm Pacific live on thick way YouTube and you watch and make money with drafting sports book the official sports betting partner of the UFC and they have a heavy weight off for this weekend's fight with a special parlay for all the listeners and viewers of fire in the kid for the fires this week my picks are Izzy, Sugar and Barbara Berina he's fighting Robbie Lawler he's the only slight dog there, I think he's a minus 105, it's a great frickin' pick, but all three have to win, and then all you gotta do

just head to the app right now under the UFC page, check out my picks, bet on it, and ride along with your thick friend here. Right now, all customers can place the same game Parley for Saturday's fight, if it hits, you have double your winnings. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app now, use promo code fighter, NewCuss for Combat $5 on any UFC 276 fighter,

to win and get $100 in free bets no matter what. That's code Fighter this Saturday at DraftKing Sportsbook, the official sports brand partner of the UFC, Minimage and ElderBuilder restrictions apply, C-Shote Noons for details. That we all have no idea how much we have in us if something that we can't control like a plane crash is in with stuck on the fucking island. Yeah.

You have no idea how much you could withdraw from your body to to survive and to do certain things and you know, but being in the hole like that, I mean, it was the worst time of my life, six and a half years. It was incredible, but I knew they wanted to break me, and that was my mental frame, so I did sit-ups, I did push-ups, I did crunches. I talked to myself, and I called it the ADX strut, would walk around the cell, talking to myself, answering myself, and trying anything. I had one visit while I was in the ADX.

My wife came down, she's my ex-wife now, and she came on a visit. And I went there and it's a booth. I go into a booth, she's on the other side in a booth. My side faces the president, her side faces those machines and stuff and they came with lunch. They opened the slot, pushed the tray in. I got it and I said, there's no utensils. They closed the slot slot eat with your hands All right, I said Deb go in the machines and get what you want

You have to talk on a phone the glasses so think you can't hear it over my head There's a camera looking at her over her head. There's a camera looking at me So I'm sitting there and I'm eating The phone on my cheek talking talking and eating with my hands. And she's talking. Her voice blurred away from me, not that it was, I couldn't hear it. Mentally I said, look what I'm becoming, a total fuck of the animal. She's sitting there. I'm in the cage. She's in the cage that I'm eating fucking food with my hands. I don't even have nothing to wipe it on. I says, what a mistake

this fucking visit is. I hit the buzzer a little bit. The female guard came up. What is it? I got to go to the bathroom. All right, put your hands through the slot. Put my hands through. She cuffed my hands. I come out. She takes me into the hole. I walk down the hole. At the end of the hole, there's this chicken wire like, you know, regular. Yeah. Around this area and a bowl against the wall. That's it. No barriers, no nothing. So I went in there, I on cuffed, she on cuffed me to a slot and I went in

and I said, could you go down the hall a little bit? She said, I have to stand here and watch I Said I don't have to take a piss. I have to take a shit Please could you go down the hall? I Have to stand here. It's cameras that I can't walk away It's the first time in my life I shit in front of a woman it was so fucking I

Was demoralized. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, I mean, I never felt like that. I was so humiliated. I was I was literally sick To my stomach and I never did that in my life I didn't feel between eating with my hands and now this, I didn't feel like a human being anymore. I felt like a total fucking animal. And did you have regrets of the lifestyle at that point? Well, when I left and I got back in,

I got in there, I got the phone, I told my wife, I said, listen babe, you spent about 2,000 with airfare or hotel, you're going to be after two they don't let anybody come here and don't come back. I don't ever want another visit here again. Don't come back. It's just Sammy you get one call a month. One fucking call a month and they're on the phone they're listening. They can shut you down.

You gotta have a call, you gotta be human. You have kids at this point too? Oh, I got kids. Yeah, yeah, I always had kids. So that was it. I never got another visit I told her, please, just don't. I didn't explain to her what just took happened when I went to the bedroom and I'm married.

I had girlfriend. I never went to the bedroom like that in my life. I don't ask for a mail, girl. You get the mail girl here, right? You get this thing in the air for nothing else. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I told her. You know what that, you know what the matter of all this? I was gonna take that shit. I figured she would walk away anyway. But she couldn't. I don't think she's happy about it. She don't wanna just take a shit.

Her job sucks, dude. Yeah, yeah. But it was a hard part. That's a shitty job. I mean, you open intended. Yeah, no pun intended. And what are you talking about now? I became so hungry for conversation that a female nurse came.

I liked her. She was friendly. She was a nice woman. She seemed like a nice person. She was talking about a letter that my daughter had sent. She had the letter in her hand. She was, your daughter's a good writer. And she was talking about this, that, and the other thing.

And she handed it to me through the bars, and I got it. And I was reading it a little bit. And she was talking to me about it. And she says, all right, I'm going to go. And I have to give it a letter back. When I gave it a letter back, she took a one-hand. And she said, I'm going to go. I don't even know what made me do it.

I swear to God, I'm trying to think what made me do. I had no idea. But I grabbed her finger. I went to grab her hand, but I grabbed the finger. And I begged her not to leave to talk to me. And she said, send me me, there's cameras all over. And know what you're going through. If they see you hanging onto my hand,

she didn't try to pull and fight because they were the sort of. She said, they'll come and beat your fucking brains in. I know what you're going through. They're overdoing it with you. Please let go on my finger. And I let go. I said, I wasn't trying to hurt you.

She said, I know. Do pushups. Do see it. Sit ups. Meditate. Fuck them. That's how good of a person says, yeah, stay strong. I will come back and forth and talk to you. Make it. Don't let them break you. Jesus. There's no, there was no way your lawyers could say this guy's in, I mean, he's in the hole for six fucking years. The government doesn't care.

No, listen, try, try, I suppose in there already now, he got a big decision. He's going crazy. Wait, who is? Choppel, Choppel. They give him, I don't think he gets an hour outside. He is. No, they'll give him an hour.

He's going crazy. His wife who's in prison now too, but she submitted things to the prison. Like he's legit going insane. Of course. And they go, yeah, how do you think this works? Well, you can run a drug cartel and kill thousands of people. Yeah. What do you think it was up?

But that would be cruel and unusual punishment that we do have laws against that, right? Isn't, I mean, if you do, we do give them a double bond. No, no, no, but I mean, I think that... No, kill them. That's what I say. Kill them. If that's how you feel, kill them.

In other words, you can't say, if fuck a music criminal a music criminal. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and against the argument against torture. The argument against torture was made specifically for that reason. It was just like them. It's also corrupts the society. It's very, very difficult. It's why we all would like to torture some people. If you left it up to, well, but the idea of retribution is a very different thing than the idea of taking somebody's a dangerous society and putting them away and the idea

It against cruel and unusual punishment back in the day they would torture you. They do terrible things But the argument becomes isolation for a human being over that long a period where you actually lose your mind It's torture. Let me but let me bring one up because hey this came up to yeah Quentinine moubae. I think it is it's on cue But let me bring one up because here this came up too. Quantanamo Bay, I think it is, it's on Cuba. Yeah, yeah. We got terrorists who were blowing us up, killing us, the most horrendous way. We catch them, we put them there for years.

They ate military food, which was pretty damn good. They have military doctors, which is pretty damn good compared to prison. They gave them a soccer field. They go out every day. These were Americans. I don't give a fuck what they did. You're going to treat them because it's compassionate and it looks good for the rest of the world.

But you're going to get our people and do our end mistakes. Now, I'm serial killers or somebody who does really weird shit. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, kill them. A file's, yeah, kill them. But you can, you can't torture people. And then you're feeling sorry for them that sort of world don't think you're a maniac,

but you're doing it to your own people. Yeah. That's like, Russia has got some real tough fucking prisons. Oh, yeah. They're not gonna show you what they're doing to those people. No. Because they don't wanna look like animals. Yeah.

But they could just look like animals today. They're on people. That's the point. You can't become them. Mm. You can't not hate a pedophile. But I'm gonna become a pedophile. Yeah. Right. Just to punish, but I'm gonna become a pedophile Yeah, right just to punish him. I'm gonna become him. So what did you do Sammy? Kill him

Just take him out take them say a lot of $4 tax dollars a whole bunch of things and it'll be a more of a deterrent Not that you're gonna baby somebody for 20 fucking years and we're gonna pay him a fortune just to feed him and Keep him healthy and do all these fucking things if he was that bed off and all these things take him That fuck out some people don't belong breathing anymore Now and I agree with this and I don't care if it was me and if you thought I shouldn't be breathing Take me to fuck out I would rather you take me out than do fucking 30 years or six You mean the fire and

Right How long do you think they'll keep El Chavo in solitary like that for a pebble? He's forever. That's forever sir. He has his friends. He's escaped three prisons. We can't that's He's got rabbit on his in other words. He's escaped three prison. You did. Yes. The Irish, right, and Philly. They were them a lot. No, they were. They just did. We don't want a lot of people. I was locked up with a guy named Dougherty. He was an IRA member.

And at the time, he was a good guy. He was in an English prison and he broke out on the way out of prison. They killed a god One of the they think they killed two gods one of the gods was Margaret thatches Nephew. Oh, geez. So you killed the president's nephew. Whoa You're gonna wait and he got away He came into the United States and the mafia hooked them up down I'm in the bar. I reached a neighborhood and again got him a job

but that they found them and They arrested him in the United States and he fought extra edition and because I would have tortured the shit out of him So he fought extra edition for years. I was with him. He was even writing articles for a newspaper for a while Fort extradition and because I would have tortured the shit out of them. So in Fort extradition for years I was with him. He was even writing articles for a newspaper for a while. Below MCC they have Doggity Square. They named it Square after him. It was doing a lot of time there. I think it was President Bush, the father, the first one, who even though he won all his decisions, shipped his ass back

at night to England. And he's probably a better off, they're a prisoner over there. There are certain prisons that they have there that the inmates run the thing, the IRA. There was so many of them. I don't know now this was more years ago. They had it locked down. They used to say, if you were Irish, and if you were Irish in those jails, the British were gonna mess you up.

So what they would do is if you were an IRA guy, they'd go to the head guy, the British, the guy, the English guy who ran the prison, shot collar, and they'd go, that's your address, right? Is that your address? That's a home where you're just living. Yeah, good. You fuck with us. We'll blow it to smithereens. They want one better. Here's what they did too. They wouldn't take orders from the English gods. In other words, they only had, the god had it go. He's the boss.

In other words, the god had it go, he's the boss. The head-eye array guy, they would go to him. This is what we need done. Okay, he gets his people, the Irish guys, to get those things done. That's power. They won't take orders from them. So they would compromise with the boss. And he had a little bit of power

to get better food, better medical attention. But they had to go to him. You couldn't go to me as his underling you had a little bit of power to get better, better food, better medical attention. But he, they had to go to him. You couldn't go to me as his underling and tell me to do it, I would tell you here. Yeah, I'll listen to him, I ain't listening to you. Sammy, were you ever worried in prison that we're gonna try and get in there?

You, even not even Mafia business, but just in general. I got along in prison so fucking good, it was general. I got along in prison. So fucking good. It was amazing. I get along with people. Yeah. I was I have old on my arm. The A B's allowed me to put that the area in brotherhood because I became very friendly with them.

A lot of times they would ask me for structure. How do you just structure the mafia? What's the structure? I would tell him what he want to know for you're a bees Way to mafia. What's the difference? Well, you last did hundreds if not thousands of years or your structure Is nobody ever had a structure like you people? So I talked with them. I used to play chess It's through the walls, with this guy, Schneider, Paul Schneider.

They used to call him, Comfort. Real, well, big muscular guy. Not what weights or anything, just natural like a fucking farmer, real muscular, but all natural, no working out, no nothing. Just a beast. And I got friendly with him.

He had four life bits. He was, nobody went in the yard with him. Nobody would go in the yard with him, so he couldn't get in the yard. Because he would just kill dudes or what? Well, he went in with a sentence, three other life sentences were killing people within the presence.

There's nothing to lose. So he's got nothing to lose. He just got another one, he don't care. So nobody would go in the yard of nothing. So he's got nothing to lose. You just got another one, he don't care. So nobody would go in the yard with him. And he was so fucking big this guy. It was, you know, so anyway, he's telling me about it and we're playing, because I had asked him, why don't you go in the fucking yard, bro?

He said, somebody's got to sign me, and I can't get in. So nobody was willing to sign, okay. Jesus. And that's all it's gotta be. Yeah. What's the first thing? I said, all right.

I called the lieutenant. I said, listen, we're gonna go out tomorrow. Yeah. Put me into your word with him. Confed. Are you sure, Sammy? You know, he's with history. I know, he's got four life set.

I know all about him. I know about him. It's cool. He's my friend, I think. My friend, I think. Well, I don got four life set. I know all about him. I know about it. It's cool. He's my friend I think. My friend I think. Well, I don't know for sure. I think he's doing cartwheels. No, when they take me out the next day,

he got out first. He's in the back of the yard. He's got a shirt off. Son is beating on him. Oh my God, he looked like a fucking goddess. I tell you the truth. I mean, I said, now I goddess. I tell you the truth. I mean, I Says now I'm putting my got my hands through the thing they run cuffing me I'm saying I wonder if this was a mistake. Yeah, so I said, but fuck it. I mean it's done now

So take the cuff off because in that they tell you if you're in a fight they'll scream I'm gonna use my own and grvado hit the ground They'll scream. I'm gonna use my own and Gervano hit the ground You know, it's Gervano hit the ground. They're gonna shoot you with rubber bullets. Yeah You're never gonna hear it the third time if you're using a weapon or you're doing something too vicious and you don't hit the ground They'll use the regular bullets. They could do it either way and you're not and you don't know what they're gonna do So I'm saying well if it if I could fight a little bit and hang in there a little while, I was gonna scream a little.

Yeah, maybe I'll hit him with some rubber bullets or something. So when he don't want to go to the bathroom, and I start walking in the yard towards him, and he's walking towards me. It's got a little bit of a smile on his face. I'm a little nervous, I'm gonna say the truth. It's six three.

I mean, he's beefy and he's nasty and he's killed a lot of guys. He killed a lot of guys. So I'm walking up there, fucking hands, when I get to hand, he grabs my head at almost by my ears and pulls me at him and gives me a kiss on the head. I love you. He says, I would have never gotten the fucking yard.

You're gonna be solid. That's solid. And we were like to. Was he a good chess player? Very good. Really? And became a great artist. Really?

Of course. He eventually got out of there and I was in prison with him later on. He's done some of these tattoos on me. He's done those are prison tabs. These are all prison tabs. These are all my own chess, my back, every fucking thing. And so anyway, he was going with me.

And then I talked to him one other time, I have talked to him all the time, but I found out that they were going to hit. Our family is a Mexican mafia gang, real dangerous, and they were going to hit the boss. Black guy was going to hit him. They were going to take him in the yard. They were going to hit the boss black guy was going to hit him they were going to take him in the yard they were going to stab him or whatever so I found out I told Corphan he said the the guy is right the cell below you which is even with the yard when you go down to the yard tomorrow bang on his window tell him about the hit and tell him that I know about it too. Why would he do that?

He was first of all, he's friendly with the, not from me. Those two groups were, were pretty tight. Okay. They're different groups, but they respected each other enough that they were tight. Okay. So I go down and I bang on his guy's window.

So I said, bro, I found out tomorrow when you go into yard, I make it like this, you're going to get hit. I know, I know, folgary nose and I, you know, and I'm giving you this little message. I know, Sammy, bro, I already know about it, but I appreciate what you tell them. Yeah. So now I'm friendly with the A-Bs, and now he tells all the familiar guys, all the Mexican guys, and I'm friendly with them.

So when I go, pass them, and when I'm walking out, say, man, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, they're the most dangerous two groups in the prison system that I'm good. I'm fucking good. But I didn't do it for that, but it worked out.

So I never really had many problems in prison. Then it became real to people. I tied it up. When I went in, I was 55. I got a 20-year sentence. I tied it up and did certain things for a reason. I figured I'm going to get hit in the joint. Whether if it's a fight, now getting up in age,

I'll probably lose, but I'm going to kill whoever is hitting the fight. Especially if it came where you won the fight, now you kick him in the face, you better kill me or I'll kill you. And people knew that in prison. They said, this guy's for real. He's not racist, he's not this, he's not that. He's easy to get along with, he don't think it's shit, it's things like John Gotti.

So I got along with guys. I didn't deal with gay shit, drugs, gambling, money. So those are the places where you really get into problems in prison. You know, really? Okay. Oh, you might know shit. Yeah. All of that shit or the television. That's why sports. I'm not that good at it no more because they're always arguing over the sports. This guy wants this. That guy wants that. They're like, it's fucking sh**. They got it, what's Jerry Sprayin'? Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, they sort of, the television is a problem

and drugs, like I said, is a problem. You just stayed away from all of it. All of it. Yeah, but it's interesting, because even before you did time, like you've always had respect, whether it's in prison, whether it's in the mafia, there was just a respecting when it came to you. Like everybody had respect, whether it was in prison, whether it was in the mafia,

it was just a respecting when it came to you. Everybody had respect for you. I always did, and I still do, till today. I respect people, I respect people who are big and they're smaller than me, different things. Like, they say- Tom, how do you, Tom, John would always have you come along because you could read people when they were lying.

Yeah. John, John would always bring Sandy, along? Because you could read people when they were lying. Yeah. John, John would like always bring Sammy because I was just going to have reading things and people. One day he tells me, he says, say man, I got a big meeting. So guys coming down, business shit, heavy stuff. Sit by my side and tell me what you think after the meeting.

I said, all right, so I was sitting there. And the guy is talking to him and he's telling them all this stuff and John is talking back and going back and forth a little bit. And the meeting's over. He says goodbye. He says goodbye to me. He leaves.

He said, what'd you think? I said, there were certain times he was lying to you. How do you know? I said, when he came times he was lying to you. How do you know? I said, when he came in, he was all smiles, slid back in the chair, it was real comfortable. When you said this, it's about ABC, this whole posture change, he stiffened up. His hands grabbed the edge of the chair.

His knuckles turned white. He was squeezing the chair. Super uncomfortable with your questions. That little jobball moving, he was teeth was clenched. He was nervous. And then he calmed down. And those things went away. Then you were as them, XYZ.

Again, his whole body shifted. He was the tension I could see it in his face, in his eyes. Even a little bit of sweat was coming above his lip. And his tongue was coming in and out like a fucking lizard. His mouth was dry out of fear. What an asset. Again, what an asset for John Gotti to bring you along. So, let me say this part is funny because this part is funny because now two weeks, we

fight out everything I told him was right. Just about, not everything, you know. So that's every time he's gonna sit down with somebody. Say, I'm eight. Why? It's your first bullshit. You're all right, I don't know, man. Sit with this.

Now, how do I learn that? I don't even know how to fuck I learn it, but I'm dealing with bosses under bosses. Guys who are lunatics, guys who are good guys, guys who are everything, life in that situation, business situations, I've learned that for self-preservation. It was a long time. Every time you're born, every time he goes, we're walking in the building and he goes,

I don't know, you're not fucking taking me to the room right now, I go, you know. Fair point. I said, every time you went to a meeting when you were in the mafia You don't know if it's the last time you're walking in that room That's always a possibility. Yeah, it's always a possibility But I'm not for me because it's a possible and and if you worried about it I'll tell you why you worried about it. You're a cop So you know you did something your cheatage and you did this you did that it's guilt

It's your own guilt. Yeah, that's what you feel like walking around. I wonder if he knows I wonder if he found that Why is he want to talk to me why is he want to talk to me alone? Why did he want me in the back room? That'd be your own fear. Yeah, yeah, it's you To this day I hate if I get a lot of stuff. I never fucked anybody alive or bullshit. I don't do that I mean I kill people, but I didn't do that. In other words, it was never a business move. Not business moves, but close and Austrian moves. But if we're gonna make a deal,

I always live up to my deal with you. Yeah. Some guys will say, I was dealing drugs, and we made 10,000. Nobody knows that I we made 10,000. Nobody knows that I made this 10,000. So, well, maybe one or two guys know. So I'm gonna go to the boss and let's say it's a 50-50. But I'm not gonna give him 5,000.

I'm gonna say, we made 6,000 history. So that little bit of cheating that you did, you're always in the back of your mind. Yup. I wonder if somebody told him. He knew about it. I wonder if he told him. I wonder if this ever came out.

Yeah. It's the same guilt. So if you don't do that, then I didn't walk around with guilt. You don't miss the life? Maybe let's take another little break from chat with Sammy the bull. Take a little break if you want. I don't miss the life. Maybe let's take another little break from Chapman, Sammy the Bull. Take a little break if you want.

I don't care sometimes. There's no bull on me in Fort Wayne, July 14th, at 6th. You're a bull. Because I'm gonna be in Milwaukee. I'm gonna walk you in one day, do a bull in. Milwaukee, in four,

Wayne, Milwaukee, 223. Get you some. Yeah, all right. But let's not tell you where you need to get you some this Saturday, you see 276 is here. Watch the live CalBass fight command and a thick boy YouTube. 23 get you some yeah, all right, but let's not tell you where you need to get you some this side of UFC 276 is here watch the live Cal Bass fight command and thick boy YouTube and make money with draft King sports book

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part of the UFC, minimum age, eligibility, street, street, street, street, street, street, show notes for details, draft kings. Now let's get back to Sammy the Bull. Yeah, because before you answer that, I was going to say like, you know, a lot of people talk about the downfall of the Gambino crime family, all that stuff. To me and in the movies too, like, whether itfellas Casino, I don't watch to the end. I like to begin, blow, I like to begin. And when you guys, it had been so fun.

I think you guys are in that rape, the social club there, and just doing your thing, you guys are in suits. And then I listen to your podcast, and you're talking about one time you and John got a one to this restaurant or bars, and there's girls there on Johnson's, you're over to one time you and John got to you went to this restaurant or bars and there's girls there And John sends you over to pick up the girls are pretty girls you go over to them But their dads or something wearing another crime family. So you're like you can't do this John and it's like I mean, obviously you guys went short on girls and people that liked you because so much power. I bet it was so fun man

Besides I think telling us there was that funny times that that is fun That's why the people love the mafia People Legitimate guys there's guys who are tough guys who are not killing people are not in the mafia there tough guys And they love that because it's they almost that's almost in them themselves. Yeah, could be a new a little bit him Guy hand they could be in anybody really. I don't know. So that, no?

No, well, I don't know. All right, whatever. Yeah. My man. I think it's in everybody. I think everybody. Everybody. And that's what makes Demaafia so lovable to people.

They kill themselves. So they don't care about that part. But their life, the running around, the bruise, the cars, the drink, and their life, the running around, the bros, the cars, the drink, and the gambling, the joking, sin, and the car. Everybody's got that little bit of taste of breaking a rule, fucked the government. You know, you're after a while, you're constantly constantly. So more or less, you know, the hardest cases for the government

to win our tax evasion cases, because the jurors every one of them says, I like this guy fucked the guy. Which I could fuck you up. Yeah. So they can relate. They can relate to mafia guys. They can relate to some of the stories, fun stories But there's a lot of bad stories and there's a lot of good stories. I feel like just the bad stories Get told on like the fall down the mafia. It's like man to build that empire that business like if you guys would have done it Legally, I'm you talking when the greatest business of all Legit he was making he was legit, just off legit business, he was making 750 grand a year. No, no, he was making 45 grand cash a week. That was illegitimate, but his legit businesses

were almost a matter of fact. And with this, my thing is, you can come to a point where you guys are making so much money, does nobody say, hey, I think we're good. Yeah, exactly. Like, why wouldn't Pablo Escobar when he's worth whatever they said, $12 billion? At three billion, I think we're good. Yeah, exactly. Like why wouldn't Pablo Escobar, when he's worth whatever they said, $12 billion. At three billion, I think we're good.

The juice. It's going to shut us down. You see, being the best thing, being the best thing. Being the best thing, being the best thing. It's totally different. See, he's dealing with an illegitimate profit of product drugs, period. He has to know when to stop.

We're dealing with a lifestyle. Now, if we were dealing drugs, you could tell the guy not to stop the life, but why didn't you made enough money with the drugs? Why didn't you stop? You'll keep going. Oh, right. But it's the mafia is not made for the money end of it, even though there is a money end. You don't go into that. You don't kill for money. There's a lot of things you don't do for money. Money is in our God totally. We all want to make money, we have an edge in making money. You could do legitimate things where it does help you. Like you open up a bakery, right? And you're a made guy and I'm your captain. Hey bro, he's just open up a bakery and he's doing this

and the other thing now, listen, tell your family, your friends, everybody go there. So you, a legitimate guy opens it up, he's gotta be putting out good shit for the neighbors and the people in that area, that by all of a sudden you got 150 customers coming in by who don't know how it is. Even if somebody says, I don't like that bread all that much and I'm your captain.

Good. Then feed it to your dog. But go buy it. Yeah. Yeah. He's our brother. Yeah. Yeah, it's just so strange. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of fun. It's an extreme lifestyle. But I think, too, another point is why, when Brian said you're coming on, I was happy. Because again, I listen to your pod. I think, too, you've always been family first. Like you would take, do your mafia business during the day, but you'd come home and you'd be with the kid. Like, you're a good dad.

I had lived two lives, for sure. I was a good father, a good husband. He's talking to his son today. Even though I cheated, but I was a good father, a good husband. He's talking to his son today. Even though I cheated, but I was a good husband and a good father. Right now I'm a good father and a good grandfather. But I was always a good mafia also as well. That was my life. It wasn't just stealing or money, it was my heritage. I'm succing and I go back. It comes from Sicily. So it's just like my, it touches all my family,

not the bad part of it, but the heritage part of it. So to me this organization means something, it's not just a gang anymore, because I was in gangs, but that's bullshit. It's me as a UR, it's not just a gang anymore, because I was in gangs, but that's bullshit. Yeah. It's me as a, you know, it's a bullshit. But when this became, it's part of our heritage. So the Irish, when they look at it, they have a heritage.

You know, the island and the English took over and they fought for their freedom and all these bullshit things. So Irish guys look at it in a way like that. Not every group, some groups though, but the mafia is just dedicated to that. And dedicated, in other words, when I look at it with my neighborhood,

Mentioners Brooklyn, and I'll take the whole fuck of Mentioners Brooklyn. That's my neighborhood. That's my people. I don't give a fuck, who's in the people you could be Irish it could be a tiger could be Chinese you could be black You could be green those are my people. I Don't want you fucking doing a stupid shit in my neighborhood and they accepted you right like they knew what you were doing They still go neighborhood that because you know you moved you want to get out and move and he moved and

Tell me this is right. Sammy you moved and The the neighbors down the street didn't want their kids playing with your kids because he was in the mafia Yeah, where'd you move Sammy? Where'd you move? Well, you know, no, I know, but they knew what he was yeah, you know, so that go these kids can't because his kids want to play with these kids on the street Where was cost a lot? Was he in power manner? No, he was in Staten Island. He was on a towed hill where those were all the wealthy houses. I was in Bull's Head. It's not, you know, so regular in the neighborhood, blue collar and people. But then I moved. I was making so much money. I moved to towed hill and I got a house. He's talking about it. And you know, I was out a lot. So when they come back and I moved to total and I got a house, what he's talking about. And I was out a lot.

So when they come back and I says, how's everything going? We just moved there. She says they won't play with the kids. The kids hated it. So the kids didn't like it. I said, what do you mean they wouldn't play with the kids? Who?

The house down the block. Bonson nobles, the guy who owned Bonson nobles lived down the bunch. So I said, they're not allowed to play with them. That's what they didn't want our kids playing with. I walked out of the house, I walked all the way down the block, it's pretty far. And I knocked on the door. And the wife in the door. The wife in your Mr. Barnes. The wife came out and she says, could I help you? I bought the house over here.

I'm sending it. You know what? Oh yes, yes. Yeah, you know what, yeah. Because you're not allowing your children to play with my children because to me you want to know something get the fuck out of my way get your husband Get your fucking husband to come here. He's read a book So

Finally, I mean it was It's kind of scary. Yeah, it was all my shit life. It was all my kids are playing with kids No, then the guy came to the door and he said What happened and I says she won't allow the kids to play with my kids because of the gangster bro You know what I don't want my kids playing with your kids, but I want you to move So you're fucking housing it out here. You said that you I. I said it to you. Oh got you. You said it to me would have been dead It would have been Mr. Barrett. It would have been number 20 hall. Yeah, so anyway, I tell him that bullshit whatever

And then he's apologizing and then I said send me calm the fuck down. It's not the guy. It's the woman said it Yeah, so I said listen pal. I apologize for what I said Tell you fucking wife. These, sorry, I said, listen, pal, I apologize for what I said. Tell your fucking wife. These are kids, bro. They got nothing to do with me. You let them play. Let the kids play. Exactly what I said. Let them play. And then I went back. I was calm. I told my wife, get real estate. We're going to sell this house and go back. I wanna go back into everyday slumy people. I would do a little bro. I wanna be back over there and I wanna be a bit.

Makes you feel bad. Yeah, yeah, my shit. It's not me, I don't care if they never talk to me, but. So did you threaten the neighbor too? Wouldn't you be ashamed? Didn't you threaten the neighbor? Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, you should be ashamed.

I mean, I think it's worked out for you. Wait, when did you do that? And then he realized, like, when did you do that? Because that guy's not worked out for you. That way when you do that, he realized like, when did you do that? Because that guy's not part of the business. Same as like, what am I doing there, dude? You think that got the bars in old book? I heard, yeah.

Mr. Barnes got dealt with. Oh, you did, you said that. He shamed you. That's a lot of money. That's books burned out. That's scary, shit. Yeah. So, we were talking about how you can't be a gangster anymore.

Like with cameras and the way shit is now. It's just different, it's just different, right? Yeah, you can't threaten people with violence now, right? Yeah. I mean, you can, but. Peyton. Show him the 38. Ha ha ha.

Yeah. She had a baby. She's your head. She's the one who carries the gun. She's the one who's the gun. I still, I fucking knew it. I knew it because she was so quiet. Oh, you guys, the dirty were her.

It'd be funny if she took her wig off. I'm like, this is not about, and that's just not how I look at you. You know, see that movie where she takes out two guns. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck you, Sam. He's always behind. He's always got one step ahead of you.

The Johnny Key story to me is one of the greatest stories I've ever heard of my fucking life the way you, by the way, I told you, by the way everybody, I did this best of them, we're doing this podcast. I've been trying not to sound like I'm from Brooklyn, but every time I'm around, I start talking like I was born and raised in Brooklyn, but I'm not. So just in case there is a little accent there,

because you kinda catch that energy. Now, but the Johnny Keyes thing is the fucking craziest. Like you're in details. Here's what I like. This is what's interesting. You had to get the guy in the van. So you say, I'm gonna stutter. I'm gonna, I'm gonna miss my, I'm gonna,

I'm gonna stumble a little bit. And that would be because the reason they're getting missed keys is because he was in the house. So Johnny, Johnny Keyes was the hit man's hit man. He was, there was a war going on, right? You go and pose as a lackey, as a jerk off, as a guy who's just like a bitch, really. And he has to go tell him,

just tell him how you have to go through the gauntlet of the guys. I just signed the contract with the Johnny Keyes. I can't tell you that. But, because you're not gonna be able to be a little of a story. Because they might be doing a little song called movie about

Yeah, the other things that you ever get sick of telling these stories No, like it when you go when you're a Jimmy. So you like What's the same story a lot of times I just get a little rough but When I was when I started telling it when I started telling these stories it was almost like a release valve. I live with these bottles. Yes, I live with these stories bottled up in me. When I started, I was just talking to a microphone doing a podcast. There was nobody there.

James Carroll was working with me. He was a great director and we were doing it. It was like a release valve. I tell some of these stories, especially as Johnny Key's story. I become emotional because the only way I could remember or do these stories is I literally put myself in a focus that I'm redoing it. So when I talk about it, I see his face. Yeah. I hear his voice.

I see his smile. It drives me fucking nuts. It really does. But now we're talking so many people who heard this Johnny Keith's story. You don't have to tell it. I want to interrupt you. Yeah, let me interrupt you. Because what I think is funny, you confuse the shit out of me, Sammy.

Because the fucking guy I'm kissing my girl last night, I hear him go like this, I don't know, we're eating dinner, I give my girl a kiss and I just hear him go. Ah, I don't like this fucking guy is being moved by my love of Pharaoh, my girl. He's calling, he's kinda like, ah, that's so sweet. And he tells stories where he's really emotional.

Now he's doing this series, he's got five episodes coming out and it's called solvatory and The directors like listen Sammy when you get a kill the guy you're gonna be emotional You're gonna be really emotional and he goes he goes he goes I was there I don't know if you know me bro, but I don't get I'm I'll put a hole in your face and fucking ask to pass the salt It was also sleep 10 hours like he did no not prom sleep. He had sleep and take a nice long. He just sleep like a baby.

I said to you, I go, I go, but Sammy, does that make you associate with that? He goes, I don't think so. He's just a fucking confidante. He was like, I did a thing. I did a gig in Tennessee. There was a big show we did and everything. And then we went to dinner with a whole bunch of fairly wealthy guys

and they were paying to sit and talk and have dinner. So I was eating spaghetti and I had a spoon and a fork. I'm twirling the pasta. Rich guys talking to you as well. Yeah, yeah. And this one rich guy from England says, I'd like to ask you a question. I'm twirling and he says, tell me how you felt right after the murder.

What kind of feelings did you have if you killed someone? I can't be a murderer. So I said, well, and I stopped twirling. I said, I'll tell you this way. I could turn around right now, put a bullet right in your fucking head head and blow your fucking head wide open and you fall on the floor.

I'm going to call the waiter. I'm going to tell the waiter, get this out of here and clean it up. I'm bringing some parmesan. And go right back into twirl and put it in my mouth. The old table for you guys. They all busted out laughing. Even the English guys, that's so fucking cool. That's so cool.

But for me, it's like, I asked him, I go, we ever religious, obviously. He's like, no, I'm not. No, how could you be? You ever think about what, what are you gonna say to God if you die? How's something's like, oh, fuck. You know, I hate to get into God's conversation,

but what am I gonna say to him? I'm gonna say, bro. You know, come on, bro. You made me, bro. Made me, you make lions and you make lambs. You make these things and you have control and power over it. You made me. Yeah.

You couldn't have made me. Yeah. You couldn't stop me. Yeah. And whatever's going to happen to me is going to happen to me. I would tell them, but there's so many young little kids dying of cancer and they're being raped and arrested and I mean, it's been a pleasure. When you have stopped summing that shit, yeah. I mean, when you stopped some anatchet, you could have made a sign here in front of everybody that maybe we'd change a whole bunch of people's lives, not after that, while they were alive. So, I believe in God because there's a lot of things, I mean mean I don't know how we all started how life started

and we all believe in God in all kinds of different religions I gotta make this straight now because there'll be people hating on me who are in different religions but when I went to prison in one part in 2004 they took away smoking. I didn't smoke for 13 years. And I went into one of these units. I wasn't in the hall no more. And the Indians had a ceremony that had this big blanket wrapped around looking like a little bit of a T.P. and they could smoke. It's a religious thing for them. They're talking like Native Americans. Native Americans. That is it. And yes.

And so I went to them, I said, could I join this group? Because I wanted to smoke. Hell yeah. Because you want to smoke. I mean, the real reason I'm being honest with you. I love your face pain, I'm just sitting there smoking. Just sitting there and naked, yeah. No, there's no smoking.

There's just a religious thing for them. So he said, if the chaplain allows it in the federal system, you could change religion. So I went to the unit manager, I went to the Chaplain and they made me a native American. So I went into it and I was smoking and passing the pipe and stealing some tobacco so I could roll it, bring it back to the cell when the God kisses. I light it up at night and smoke. But I got to respect their religion. We have to sit through it. You do have a beautiful religion, a road, it's a path to God. They believe in God just like everybody else. I had another group of friends who were Wikens. Wikens. Wikens. Oh. It's like a nature pagan religion. Yes.

So he said, Sammy, you're not a Native American Indian. Why don't you come and join with us? And I join with them. And I learned this. What I learned in prison is that every single religion, Muslim, Jews, Catholics, Christians, you name it. They have a path to God. We all believe in God. Why are we all fighting the passage for money? Yeah, oh for money. All the religions are bullshit. I mean, it's for money And you go in a path. That's their path to God and I don't care whose path goes with and some of the places I believe it, I like the pagan religion because they have. They believe in that the only religion that has the woman, goddess of the moon, the water and the earth,

God of the forest and the mountain. The woman is more important than the man. Why? She always needs a man, but she creates life. Right. Yeah. She be creates life. She's more important. They have a seizure. Yeah. There's a progressive thing about Sammy. He'll order a vanilla latte with a cinnamon sprinkle I'm like I'm dying I'm gonna eat somebody's that's him a bowl. I'm not putting the shit in the world like Sammy the bull is like I'll get a swirl Good to caramel swirl with the

I'm gonna eat someone. I'm not getting Sammy the bull car. Yeah, I want some I want some He's gonna give Sammy a bowl of fucking latte. The fucking guy recognized me goes, Cal and all right man, wow, I'm like, yeah, this isn't my fucking drink. This is a Samuel Bull. This is a Samuel Bull's drink. The Bull got the latte with almond milk, bunch of black coffee. Yeah, yeah.

So anyway, I know. That's your Sunday night in the bottom. That's your Sunday night in the bottom. I have way a lot of different hats. So, and, but a lot of days I like those as long as it worked for you. Well, I look. Oh, what is it? When can we see this TV show you're doing? This comes out July 6th. Now, I mean, you're acting in it. You're you're the guys literally an actor. It's like what John Gotti always want to do where he's miking up last night.

Yesterday on that we're on the pier and he goes and then people arrived. You guys literally an actor. It's like what John Gotti always wanted to do. He's miking up last night yesterday, we're on the pier and he goes, and then people arrived, damn, they've been recognizing them, girls have taken pictures with them and stuff. And he just starts laughing, what's up? He goes, it's just unbelievable, John Gotti, this is all he ever wanted.

This is all he ever wanted. And I wanted the exact opposite. I was always hiding in the shadows. You didn't want the tension. And he goes, now I'm a fucking, basically everybody wants a piece of me. He's got meetings right after this. He's got meetings with big Hollywood producer Imagine now I win any kind of an award. So it's got me thinking what the fuck would you say or do?

Oh Hollywood's gonna be clapping. I owe this to John Gotti He didn't fuck me. I would have never been I didn't fuck me, I would have never been in it. Oh fuck. But would you ever think to me, like, it's crazy, whose idea was for you to start the podcast? I think it's so dope that guys like you, or even guys in different fields like Tim Kennedy or Jocco, you know, who are special forces guys,

they have an outlet now where they can tell these stories. It's a special skill set. Yeah. And I think one of the things that makes you special, obviously, your history in the mafia, guys, they have an outlet now where they can tell these stories. It's a special skill set. And I think one of the things that makes you special, obviously, your history in the mafia, but your memory is in, in peckle. It's better mine. Yeah, it's better mine. You know, I have a guy who did a video, he said, he's lying because he told a story about

the stairs creaking, the guy wore a red shirt. It's 40 years old, no one can repeat that, he's lying. Yeah, I get it. No, here's what I want him to do. Here's the idea. I want him to get up, get together with some other gangsters from the old days, get together once a month or whatever it is and tell stories about play cards. I like how stories.

Dude, Mafia fight companion. That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. How about that? Yeah, that's great. We say that. Not even once a story. Dude, Mafia fight companion? That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. How about that? Yeah, that'd be great. We said, not even once a month, we do it once a week. We're sitting down, we're playing cards,

we're joking, we're clowning. How many clowning? We're just being like we were in the past, talking about brods, talking about drinking. Oh man. I love it. Yeah, it's about girls. I'm in.

Listen, you know, my, Steinme was running a phone company. I love him. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy.

I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy.

I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm a guy. I'm being known to us. We're caught on tape. So he shows a picture and I just got a gorgeous fuck it is. So we're joking like that, but she looks like it and this is that the other thing. It's a captain's wife. It's his girlfriend. Oh, got you. And it's

a serious dude. So anyway, I don't know how they let him know the facts about this conversation. I don't know. And now he's talking to me, he says, I don't know who the fuck did this. Miss Mike Gohan would do this. So I said, bro, yeah, that's horrible. That's horrible, but I gotta tell you the truth, bro.

The S part, I think that was He's like who said she has a wagon The legs I think that was The girl yeah, I said she's beautiful Tell a story about how you have this girl comes up to him. And she goes like this, she goes, I've always wanted to have sex with a little wise guy. She goes, I like a little guy who's a gangster.

I've always wanted to fucking a small gangster. How old is this? He's sitting there. He is, and he goes like this. And he goes, yeah, she got a man. He's right across on Joe's Hashee. No, that's not true. Yeah, yeah.

It's a shame. So I said, listen, I don't think they get much more You guys, you got me. I'm right across on Joe's. Yeah, it was Hashi. No, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. No, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. No, it was Hashi.

Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi.

Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi. Yeah, it was Hashi.. His uncle is a captain. Oh, my. That's a death panel. I mean, there's no Facebook back there. I didn't know. So I went to Sally Dogs when I said, Sally, bro, I got to talk to you. And I was in the bar, I told him a story a little bit and I wind up.

Don't tell me he says, I forgot a name now, but yeah, yeah, I won't worry about the whole neighborhood of Factor. So he's like, but I really didn't know who she was. I put you. Yeah. Well, sometimes you're supposed to notice this. I mean, if you knew, if you didn't know that, if you knew you'd be in trouble.

Yeah, yeah. If you know, if you know, if you're in a capital offense, would you die for that or would you just get beaten up? Not a girlfriend, right? Why? If it's off. Well, which one we're talking about? No, I'm saying if it's somebody's niece or something like that

Well, if you intentionally did that this part you see this is another thing that separates us from gangs we have to have some moral and thinking and power and we you know It may just it may not be a killing thing at that far down maybe, but it's gonna disgrace you. You're gonna look like a piece of you. You look proud of him. No, I do know that, bro.

And it's like, I'm an in my... He's your close friend, he's your partner and everything like that. So you go out one night and you, the girl and you find out it's his, at least. But you said, my friend is my partner, my brother. Yeah, you're not gonna do it.

No, I'm not calling. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if he says, God, I do it. Yeah, you know, I'm not, but I hate, you know, I hate, you know, you know, you know, I did my toe. When we get my beak right. I don't have a beak right?

I mean, what might be come on me? My father said, he told me I'm good. I love it. I mean, what might be my beak is dry? Samy said I'm good. You talk to him, no. Samy said that to you. Yes, I said fuck. He's never done I'm gonna go Samry. Samry. Samry. Samry. Samry. Samry. The goal. That's what we're gonna do from now on. I got I got both Samry. He gave me the

good of the green light man. I had to zoom in them before he was come out in time. Yeah, I mean his system was like he's got a meteor. He's fucking in the back right there. I'm like Mr. Gravano. Thank you so much Mr. Gerrano I believe you'd be a samurai if you'd been born in the in in feudal Japan I'm doing whatever the fuck I can. I've said I watched your whole you know, I get no thought when he told me you're coming on I mean I got my black belt and all your all your stuff the out of all that man I read all the books everything. I think you you're the one guy who got fucked over You're one of the first guys that the media portrayed it because John Gotti was so beloved,

but he also didn't play by the rules. And you're quoted saying this is, you guys are playing chess, you just beat him. He snatched on you, you snatched on him, and he broke the code many times before. I also think his recklessness is what fucked you guys. But he was playing checkers. I was playing chess. Yeah, and I check baited him No, when you came out with this another way is when you did this all my life

I've been asked to cooperate. I got pinched all my life. I never did But you want to know the other part is that after I cooperate with the government So let's put that on the table. I cooperate against the government in 9010 cases to get guys out of prison. The government don't like me. There's no good, this cock sucker was there. No, it's telling that story. No, no, no, no.

But there's guys out there who know it, believe me, and it's out there in the underworld. It's out there. People know those stories. And I have people asking me for favors all the time, people who now, I should even say this, but are active and asking me for favors, you know, you know, could you don't mention this or back up, you know, and I don't. But are there other guys that you would run into today from the old life that you would have a problem with that you could you would fight or just or you guys that have to cross the street. If I mean I don't know I don't know about God, but I don't know what they would do.

But there's a couple of guys that I would like to sit with in a room. Me and him. And have a sit down. Yeah. in a room, me and them. And have a, yeah, have a real talk, and then the middle. Yeah. She's, and have a real talk. But I think to you,

when you go back to Gaudi, like thinking many times you saved his ass, when you rigged the jury, rigged the jury, think about going through all that work three times. The Teflon Don, it's like, well, it's,

it's got, the Teflon's here. She and they, you know what it is like when Junior was a son and all the people who were talk. They can't get out of that because it's not something I'm making up. It's a couple of them hated me for what I did.

Oh yeah. Yeah, of course. They like that I rigged all these trials. Yeah. And they know it factually now. Yeah. She like, they got one of the cases, the guy got, you know, he got three years. They give him three years. He took six K, right? Yeah

That guy here 60 K. I'm like what You present for life all you took was 60 K. No, I was getting a major I was got a job for 75,000 a year and he was gonna be our friend But anyway that guy when he got found guilty, the feds immediately talked to him, and he cooperated and told the whole thing, worked for work. So they knew I wasn't lying.

So these things, he has, they verified all of these things. And they said this fucking sin, it was relentless. The things he was doing, rigging cases, bribing people, threatening people,

I was doing everything. What sucks for the government is your memory so impeccable and so good, is you can go through everything step by step. So all this and other mafia podcasts, whatever, like oh, Sammy says this, I don't know if I believe him, like you morons weren't there. The problem is Sammy's fucking memory so good.

You've told the, you can tell when a person's lying when the story's changing, you know, it's hard to keep up with the lies. Well, that's why I told my girlfriend, I said I believe every word you've told that you can tell one person's line when the story's changing, you know, it's hard to keep up with a lot Well, that's why I told myself I said I believe every word you've ever said I believe every fucking word he's ever said the other guys I don't I know I'm not interested in talking to the other gangsters I'm really not I don't like it. I don't like a lot of those guys. It's just I don't like what they did I don't know much about yeah, but I listen to them. I'm always like, oh these guys this guy's just sound you can tell when they're Self-serving.

They're making themselves out to be a hero or something and you're like, oh, I don't fucking like this guy. I told you, your stories are structured in this fucking Judeo-Christian ethic. It's like, but you were raised Italian, conservative family, Bensoners. That's where my mother was born and raised at a whole set of her family, right in Bensoners.

That culture is a very conservative, there's a right way, there's where my mother was born and raised that whole side of her family, right in Bensoners. That culture is a very conservative, there's a right way, there's a wrong way, there's a Catholic way. You don't fuck around, yeah, you didn't step out of those, even with the mafia, like it would cause an extra, they didn't kill the family, where these cartels go wrong, they kill everybody,

they don't last to destabilize this. There was such a stable, predictable, like my grandfather used to always say to me, he'd say, they'll never bother you, Brian, as long as you don't don't fuck with them and don't get involved with them. But if you're out on the outside, they're not going to bother you. Now, that can be interpreted differently because if I have a business, you guys are going to shake me down, right? No, no, no, not necessarily, not necessarily. I mean, we let a lot of things go. We don't go. I'm going to give you a couple of examples. I was with poor Castelano in the house of a bunch of

guys. I came in a little late and I was sitting there. He was a lot of friends. Listening was the boss of the business man. Yeah, and he was smart. So anyway, he's looking at television and there was a strike with the garbage and he's looking at television and he says look at that There's the news people. There's piles of piles of garbage everywhere, right and they're on strike So he says again, touch with Jimmy Browne was running the Association and the union for this. And get him over here. What the fuck is this?

Jimmy Brown, little while ago, when he comes into the house and he says, Jimmy, look at this, bro. What the fuck are we animals, bro? Tell them to pick that fucking garbage up from the hospitals, from the schools, from the hospitals from the old age homes, we'll win the fucking strike. What is everything in money? Pick that shit up. So he didn't, he didn't, there was a value, he's a value. He cared about the neighborhood. He cared about children Hospital old people he kids he kid And wanted to win and wanted money downfall of mafia might have been the breakdown of family values

There was an article written about that which is interesting like the breakdown of the discipline when drugs got involved And all that shit like Henry I'm gonna show you know these things. Never drugs. Right. Never, never drugs. You knew Carlock and Beno. No, there was drugs in that. In the old age, it was legal. There were drugs.

He might not. He was, he was, Lucky Lucia was more of a Pimp. Yeah. When he had drugs. Yeah. How much, what was the, what industries do you guys make the most money on? Construction. Construction's a big monster car.

You know, building high rises there there 50 back then they're 50 60 70 million dollars down it towards and you would get how much for for a yard of cement We were getting two dollars per yard. Yeah, yeah, you give two dollars to the mafia Yeah, but I heard too tell me if this is wrong time maybe I was we got turned but I heard Trump was the one guy who can get shaken down. When he's building shit in New York, he was surrounded by other dudes. And he took, he knew like the way it was. So he didn't really want to get involved.

Yeah. But he paid the price in a way without coming front. Not only that. He was up in his tower. He had XFBI agents was his was his security. See, he couldn't really push too much with him. But when the prices came up, you want to fuck with him, we had the unions, associates, we can fuck with him. He paid the big more or less, but not face to face. You know, want to come face to face. He was pretty smart about it. And at

one point I was trying to get in his pockets and couldn't get there. And I said, fuck him. Too dangerous. Yeah. It's too dangerous. Yeah. Let's keep doing what we're doing. This too dangerous. There's got FBI right around him. So if we keep pushing, we're going to go to jail. Yeah. Yeah. that's impressive. That's impressive. Trump is impressive in that sense. He was street smart. But I was street smart. Because he knew the game.

He knew what was going on at a state of pushback. Yeah. That's the thing about him with other politicians. He came up in the New York construction business. You got to be a rough fucking dude. You're dealing with the rough as to the rough. You're dealing with criminals. You're dealing with everybody, right? Right. So, it's a union, it's a rough fucking dude. You're dealing with the roughest of the rough. You're dealing with criminals. You're dealing with everybody, right? Right. Right. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, me, how are you? This is going back a little bit when they were, they hate none of them.

He was the president. So she says, you were a powerhouse in the fucking 80s, in construction, to unions and everything. Yeah. She says, the Trump was a big builder in New York at that time. Yeah. Come on, tell me something, you know something about them. Come on. Just between me and you, nobody will know.

Yeah. Journalists. Yeah. Journalists. So I said, listen, I really don't know too much about him. He's a builder. And I never did anything really with him. But, you know, I don't know.

And I don't want to talk about it. I want to get in the middle of whatever. She's begging me, begging me. Please, I mean, no one will know. It's just something between me and you. I just, I just want to know. It's between me and you. Yeah.

You'll never tell anybody. No. Okay. I wanted a job, a drywall job on one of his buildings and I had to do things to get it done. What? I got a friend of mine, very beautiful girls. Sheo Hoka. So I got her and Trump and me and we had a menager twig together.

She's writing it down. And I got the job. She's on the other end. Tell me her name. I said what the fuck is the difference her name? You told me not gonna tell mom. I was a different you Trump and suffer so she says come on She'll tell me her name and I start laughing a little bit. I couldn't take it. Oh, yeah, she says you fuck your life You're lying I told you I don't know what he did, but one thing I could tell you I will never have a manager to I

Can't get that book now That's that one cheese for the body get the fuck That was my Trump story Great. Yeah, but they're searching. I know. It's very surreal for me to have you here. Just having grown up in the 80s in New York City when you were at the height of your powers.

And again, I told you, I used to eat, I used to always eat dinner at Cafe Cerencio. And the Ravenite Club was two doors down. So I would see, when you're a young man, I'd see some of your knuckle breakers, some of those guys built like him come out. One time, I've never forgot, I'm eating with my buddy and I see two guys come out of the Ravenite Club,

big, just barrel chested dudes with suits, and colors no tie, and they're doing this and they were just walking, and they looked like they were going somewhere to do something terrible but it was like this energy this dark fucking energy is it when I was like God that's a whole thing. What's the worst? But those knucklebreakers they're in a disadvantage because you know what it was like to get into an argument with a Chinese guy or a Japanese I don't know what the fuck he was.

He was an Asian guy. And always something before we get ready to really tumbling, we hear all kinds of fucking noises like in hand movements. I said, fuck this. I'm gonna shoot this guy. I'm not gonna fight him. I don't know what that was. I'm gonna get my face.

So it's like that movie and the same thing with a real big guy. If you're real big and you're gonna fuck that. I'm sure he's fighting this guy. I'm sure. Did you work with the triads? Did you guys ever deal with the triads? The Chinese triads? No.

I don't with the Chinese people a few times. Not the triads. The triads I believe would aid a Vietnamese group. I think the triads, the triads I believe would aid a Vietnamese group. I think the triads, triads goes for like, when you're in them, so if you're Chinese mafia, you only know, you only know two other guys. So you only deal with two other guys.

This guy only deals with two other guys, this guy only deals with two other guys. So that they, there's no chain of command necessarily, like it's all, like he only knows two's all like he only knows two guys. This guy only knows two guys. I think that was the idea they tried to create this weird, you know, I would never want to be in that gang because of the fucking confusion. Yeah, I don't know. But they found the head of the triad. He was a guy, you

know, the leader of the Chinese triads or whatever, the mafia guy, they say, was sell, he would do a food cart. He would make food. He was in Chinatown. He was in a terrible game. Yeah. Oh, they were cool. Listen, I knew Johnny Khan was one of the bosses

in the Chinese mafia, Johnny Khan. And I was in prison when you go over the bridge into Chinatown You ever see that big big tower. Yep, that was his building. Oh, I did time with him He hated John by the way in prison hated him with a fucking passion and so And I used to play cards with him all the time this Johnny Cahn and And I used to play cards with him all the time. This Charlie Khan. And the best thing in the story, when he was telling me, he says, Sammy, American government, no good.

I said, yeah, tell me about it. He said, you know, my wife got arrested. She's in the woman's detention. Yeah, yeah, I know. So in the bitches, they just arrested my girlfriend. She in the same thing Yeah, yeah, but he was he was fucking cool. That is fact he knew a prince of somebody in China who gave him permission He lived in the mountains with a with a with. I mean, I'm just about. But

he gave him permission to cooperate about the drug situation. It took so he can get out. And then leave the country and go up in the mountains over there with him. So when I was in, he was telling me about it. So he says, if you, of course, I don't plan to break out when I was in prison the first time, because I knew we were gonna lose. So he says, if you get out, I know you've got plans. If you get out, I give you my blessings, you go there, you live in there, the mountains, they'll never touch you.

I'll be there someday. Eight points, it's a Johnny, says if John comes, he come there. He never leave. He's gonna hate it. He would have killed it. Did you feel any type of way, Sammy, when John passed away from throat path?

I did, I absolutely. I, and we were attached at the hip. And if you don't have feelings a little bit, I think something, you're a psychopath. But it did bother me that he died like a fucking animal in prison. I don't want to see anybody die like that. You know, I could hate a guy, but there's a limit like that. I got to be exploding about torture and how people...

I mean, there's a limit to what you want to do to somebody to get even, even if you want to cut somebody, I don't believe in torture and shoot them in the fucking hat and you got it over, wet in the toe, over, wet in, I mean, you're going to torture the guy like, like, Roy DeMail and people like that did, what do you say? A lot. Yeah, you know, you know, yeah, yeah, what do you say? 55 years old, hold was he 16? No, no, no, I think it was, you know, he's 40 if he is older than me. So he was in his 60s, I believe. I don't remember exactly, but he was in his 60s. 61.

61? Not that old. No, he wasn't known. Look at Sammy the bull. Yeah. You were the one there, everybody would talk about though. Especially now there's his son and There's all the guy he cland

So crazy. Yeah Henry Hill Carlo Gambino was a was a fucking gem Smiley. Yeah. Oh, smart to hound the guy and And a legit businessman look at that nose No, you know, so we say well who knows But he was a great, you know, I went there. I was young. I wasn't made and I went up there It's just that I don't even know why the fuck they took me there, but he came in and he got up. But his name is Sammy. Sammy, he won a couple of black coffee.

He was so really grandfatherly, like he took me over, gave me a couple of grotesque. I hear nice things about you, but just give me such a good vibe. I felt good. Well I had a theory, I said to him. Sammy, I said some part of it because we had such a good vibe. I felt good. Well, I had a theory, I said to him. I said, some part of it, because we had such a good time yesterday. I'm like, you forget, you forget who fucking was,

like I said, I feel like part of the reason you stayed alive and survived that life is because people liked you. Because there was a camaraderie and people considered you a friend or something. People looked out for you. You'd get tipped off on shit. You know, is there any truth to that you think or not?

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of times. Nikki Scarford was one guy. I won the war for him. The whole world knows that. Nikki Scarford, one night, I came home, at 930, 1030, later night, I was, and I won't have a tough day.

I was exhausted. And I get a call. Nicky would like to see you in a Atlantic city. That was two hours and 15, 20 minutes away. And two hours and 15, 20 minutes to come back. It's fucking five hours. And he wants to talk to me. I said, bro, is it important?

He wants to see you. It's important, I guess. All right. I tell my mom, my wife. And I went, I went out there and they took me into the casino. He's not allowed in there. But I went through elevator, took me up in the apartment hotel and I went in the room. And I, I don't know, And uh... How you doing, Nick? What's up? It says, you're having trouble with this fucking bomb. What bomb? Who?

He's a boss. Now, he won the war, he's a boss. Say after the Johnny Key's head. You're a boss, John. I said, bro. Don't talk to me like that, bro. He's my friend, he's my boss. And you want me to talk behind the guys back. You really want to put me in that position. I'm the other boss. I mean, you really want to do that.

I know where you're coming. but I don't feel right. I've been coming through you from before the war, all the time. Now he told me at a meeting, he wanted me to come through Joe Butch away from you. Why the fuck would he want to do that? I don't know. Maybe he knows I'm doing a lot of things. I'm tired. Maybe he's looking at it.

I don't know. But my understanding is, you want to take me away from the end of the league, a union bullshit, and just one thing, taking me away from a boss that will like this. He's right. But I'm not. I didn't go there. I said, I don't know, it's the same. Me and you have blood on our hands together.

We're in the war, you're in the war for me, bro. If you have a problem, I got you back. And think, why would he do this? Think, you were was smart guy. I'm not that advice, I think, I think about it. But Eddie said I apologize that if I offended you, you didn't offend me, but I don't want it, you know what I mean?

He is my boss. That could almost start a war, couldn't it? I mean, that's kind of sacrilege, right? Yeah, well, what he's saying, if I start a war, he's gonna go on my side, yeah. Yeah, he's gonna have his back. You know, he's gonna have my back,

his base drunken, he's saying so, I'm not gonna say nothing to put him in a position like that. Will you attempt it? No, to put him in a position, absolutely not. No, you tempted to say to Nikki, let's take John out and I'll take it. No, no, no, no, no. You didn't really want to be a boss? No say to Nikki, let's take John out and I'll take you. No, no, no, no.

You didn't really want to be a boss. No, no. Too much of a target on your back. Well, I wouldn't care if there was an old time. There was if he handed them stuff well, he could stay as the boss. I have no complaints being on the boss. I was making a ton of money. Everything was good.

Yeah. But anyway, he told me that and I answered that way. But it left a little thing on the way home I'm thinking, why would he want to take him to go to Joe Bush rather than me? A boss going to a captain and directly to him. When you're bypassing me, I'm the under-boss. And I made this guy the boss, me and him like this, which he doesn't know 100% of our relationship.

So I think maybe he underestimated that a little bit and it was a little bit of a bad call on his part, but that's how Nicky took it. He didn't trust John. But would you, now would you, did you and John so close, would you go tell John this? I know. No, you wouldn't tell him.

No. Because otherwise I would start a war. It's not a war. I may get the right guy. I went, why would a guy who's helping me, who's worried about me, why would I put him on his mind? Why would I say so stupid? But in a way, though, not telling John in that situation

is, I'll just can get you killed. Why don't we give a fuck about getting killed? I mean, if he's right, maybe I'm gonna get killed. I wouldn't give him up, period. I got you. It was, it was like, it's off the table. It's off his, my, in my corner. When you, when you got out of jail, what's the one thing after all that time

that you noticed about the world? What was, what was scary? What was different about the world? The the first time. Yeah, like when you came out now, you been to John, 20 years after John, what year? No, I'm telling the second time, you're in jail 20 years. Now you come out into society. What was that? What was that like for you? Like, what was the was the word thing?

was the worst thing in the world because when I came out most of this did I I went in in February of 2000 there was none of these fucking cell phones the computers would not like they are now cars won't all everything look like a bubble back to me it looked like the cause I mean I'm not seeing cause for 18 years I mean I've seen a picture or whatever, but to see them in reality, I couldn't tell the difference between a Ford and a Cadillac and a Mr. B. Schu, or anything I saw. It all looked a little like, unless I saw a tag on it or something. So not seeing these things or not dealing with these things for just about 18 years it's a whole fucking

trip. I remember I went with, I'm not sure if it was my ex-wife for my daughter, we went shopping and it coming out with a car and a guy came running like towards me and I turned around like almost wound up cracking them. So my daughter was my wife, whichever. What the fuck are you doing? Guys running to his car. And I just came out of prison. Yeah. I'm still I'm still in I'm in prison a guy comes running up on you like that in prison You're gonna guard against it. You know what I'm prison is weird. So I still have my prison Had a man my mentality. I got you I need time to come back into society and and understand what's going on and what's happening. I mean, it'll happen, but this guy just came fucking flying out of nowhere. It wasn't afraid of the mafia thing. Did you go to your favorite restaurants? Did you go eat? Did you want to eat something good

for the first time? Did you, there's anything you wanted to do that you hadn't done? Definitely eat. Yeah. And I don't fuck restaurants. My son cooks, he's a great chef, he's good, tremendous. And I wanted him to make me some pasta, alavacco sauce and stuff that he could make. He's a great cook, some meatballs, some, I wanted to eat more than I wanted sex. Yeah. I missed certain things about eating and I needed to get regulated again with life. Yeah. What people and you know just and then I know I coming out with a label or a Lee Sammittable, he's dangerous and this and that I'm coming out if 18 years I don't know you know how to act or well you never you never in a million years thought you'd be doing podcasts TV shows

hard dumbasses yeah no no I never thought this in the end years food staff was going to want to do a book we worked on that a little bit I wrote a little bit in prison for, as a hobby, I, it didn't go anywhere. And then somebody approached her about a podcast and she came to me and said, would you, they want you to do a podcast, they're asking me to do it, then I want to talk to you directly. But I need to have your rights,

if you're gonna do it. So I said, I'll do it. God, do it. And then my son put me on, later, put me on Facebook, without my knowledge, I'm starting to get 14,000 calls. I said, what is going on here, bro? Why are these people going on? Put you on Facebook. Oh, and then he put me on YouTube,

and then they start explaining to me what's going on and what I could do and stuff like that. I'm glad they did, man. I know. It's such a fabulous thing. It's great, man. We appreciate it, man. Yeah, this has been great, man.

This has been great, man. Yeah, we had a good time. That's what I did. And now I love it because, like, now, I'm not really an act, but I'm not, I don't consider myself an actor, but I am a person. But good last night. We were an act that we did in this. When we an act of scene from am a producer. Good last night. We did a nice black mask. We did a nice, we did a nice black mask. We did a nice black mask.

He was very good. Yeah. And I think I consider myself a producer and I'm doing things. I couldn't find a better thing. It's just like right here, right now. Honestly speaking, I couldn't find a better group of people. I'm so fucking comfortable right now. Yeah, we are good, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a good people and I'm very fucking comfortable right now. Yeah, we are good, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a good people. Yeah. And I'm very comfortable with it. I'm comfortable with my skin. I talk, I just say things. I use an example, I'm so natural with things. At the end of the show, what I was first doing

in this podcast and everything I said, or videos, I was like, how do you know, motherfuckers? Everybody stopped my whole team. You can't call the whole country motherfuckers. I'm not calling them. I said that we'll edit it out, leave it in. It's my sign off, man. It's my sign off. Now we have T-shirts, Adios motherfuckers, cups, Adios motherfuckers. And every Spanish guy I think alive, Texas B, Adios motherfuckers. Adios. I think I made motherf me a mother fucker I think I made mother fucker with legitimate word. They put you in a hole. You found your way out Yeah, crushing man, we're so glad to join you knowing I'm yeah, you know like I said

I mean in Charlie's Angels we remember a three beautiful girls. I got three beautiful girls Welcome for me. I call them Sammy's Angels. Yep, and I'm gonna do a little video in the middle of the old three of them, but whatever. So just to show the boys back in jail. Yeah. Yeah. And I took my time on the dock over there. It's got these three, they're three blinds. Three blinds.

Like the mother, a daughter, another woman, and he's got him like this. He's like, hey, and they're taking a picture. He goes, hey, fellas, life is still about here. I got the piece. You know what I mean? It's a very beautiful blind thing. Life is a bitch out here. John got his just rolling over.

Yeah. We'll send him the ball to the bottom. Thank you, brother. Thank you, pal. Thank you so much, my pleasure. I had a great time and really, Brian, I mean, the time I spent with you, I tell you, like, you know, I was 15 hours with Johnny Keys in a car.

I fell in love with him. I fell in love with you. It took two days, but you and your family and your wife and your partners and friends really, I've had a great time. I appreciate it, man. I was really, really. Now I gotta kill you. I'm just like,

so it breaks your heart to have to take a breath. It's gonna be okay. But I'll do that in another video. It's me. Yeah. We're gonna do that in Sammy's video. Sammy, I feel like you don't feel it. I feel like you don't feel it.

I feel like you don't feel it. I thought you said you love me. It's all this business. It's not Sam. It's just business, Bryce. No, no, no, no. Yeah, it's gonna be a fighter in the Sammy. It's the whole plan.

Well, Sam, we love you, man. It's gonna be the best, man. Yeah, best, thank you. I'm gonna say my... Adios. Motherfucker. Yeah! Yeah!