The Flop House - FH Mini 153 - Pride

Episode Date: June 20, 2026

Our old friend Alonso Duralde, who literally wrote the book on LGBTQ+ representation in the movies, stops by to the Flop House to ask three cis hetero guys, "Hey, what was the first queer representation YOU remember seeing on film?" Help support this show and unlock bonus content! Become a member at https://maximumfun.org/joinflop

Hello podcast listener. Welcome to the Flop House podcast. Usually on the Flop House podcast, we watch a bad movie, or as Dan likes to say, a movie that has been a critical or financial failure because he feels bad for the movies. And we talk about it. But this is a miniature episode,

what we call a Flop House mini, where instead we'll be doing something different, still movie related, but something a little different. My name is, of course, Elliot Kalen. Today I'm joined by my... Yeah? Oh, sorry.

I'm using my... usual cue. I'm Jan McCoy, loving this gentle energy you bring. Yes. And I were also joined by Strow Wellington. And I am Stuart. But today we also have another guest. We did it perfectly. Yes, but we did it flawlessly. You can really tell we've been doing this for almost 20 years. Today we're also joined by another guest, or in this case, perhaps a guest host, you might say in a way, because he's going to help lead us through a conversation about an interesting topic. His name, of course, is Alonzo Doralda. You probably know him as the chief film critic for the film verdict. Perhaps you know as co-hosts of the podcast's Maximum Film

and also Linolium Knife, Linolian Knife being one of my favorite podcasts. He's author of the books, Have Yourself a Movie Little Christmas and also Hollywood Pride among others. And he's here to talk to us today. Alonso, are there any credits that I have not mentioned that you'd like me to mention in this voice? Well, Elliot, I also co-host a show called Breakfast All Day with Christy Lemire on YouTube. And I'm a regular contributor to the Deck the Hallmark podcast. And I had no idea we were doing ASMR today, but I'm here for all the bedtime calm vibes. That's right. This many is all about is bedtime calm vibes.

Bedtime called vibes and then Stuart hawking blowing his nose. I'm sure Alex will cut it out. Leave that in, Alex. Leave that in Stewart's human frailty. It's weakness. I don't want people to think that I'm some kind of inhuman godlike being who cannot get in. No, no. I'm recovering from strep throat currently.

and it fucking sucks. Yeah, yeah. If you were actually sick when I started making fun of you. Now, we have a, there's a specific topic that Alonzo was going to talk about this about today, but before we started recording,

Alonso broke the news to us that he attended one of the screenings of after last season, whatever that we was called, that we did recently. And so I do tell our listeners a little bit about what the experience was like. Yeah.

Yeah, so everything your guest said about the trailer being on Apple trailers and everybody thinking that it was viral marketing for where the wild things are. Absolutely true. I remember when that happened. And I just remember seeing that trailer thinking, huh, okay.

And I have a couple of people that are friends of mine who see just about everything that opens. And every so often they will sound the alarm. For a movie like, say, I don't know if you all have seen standing ovation. No, I don't know that one. The teen musical or dangerous men

or, you know, they were early on the burdemic and the room. Like when they, tell you, drop everything and go see this movie, you listen. And so after last season opened in four markets for one week only. One of those markets is Lancaster, California, which is a good hour from where I live. It's way up like you're heading towards like Bakersfield, I guess. But I, you know, I had been told you have to go see after last season. So I went with two friends and we've never forgotten it and I actually own a DVD that was a brief moment where the mysterious Mark

region was selling them on his website and one of the friends who went with me to that screening got it for me so I still have it in my collection. It is a prize possession. So when I saw y'all were doing an after last season episode like I my head exploded. Yeah, I feel like we were so, we're so late to the train on that one. So, you know, there's this whole, whenever I hear about one of those and I'm like, I'm like, oh, how did I not know about this? But then I feel a little for a revival, I think. You know, I think enough time is elaps. We've all, maybe the people who knew forgot.

And so now you're there to sort of beat the drum again to let people know to, this is, this is. That makes me feel better. Yeah. And it's in the public domain by now, right? Probably. Heaven only knows with the crackpot history of this movie and how much it did or didn't cost, you know. I have a feel like a lot of these, like, really, like, legendary bad movies are the stuff that we would cover during some,

small Vimber and thus, like you know, it's like once a year we would get around to it. Unfortunately our bread and butter has become mediocre Hollywood movies that are just sort of deadening. But yeah, there's something

about these movies where it's not even just as a movie is so bizarre, but the making of it is so shadowy. You know, where did they get their money? And who, you know, how is this actually edited and put into theaters? You know, Because when you get to stuff like the room or, you know, Ben and Arthur, you're just like,

the origin story is as weird as the film itself, you know. But it's also fun. And the answer everyone always goes to is like, oh, it must have been a money laundering operation. It's like, there's easier ways to money to make and release a film. Yeah. But Alonzo, the original. Yeah, that works out. Usually, that works out.

If breaking bad is any indication, yes, car wash is the way to go. Yeah. Alonzo, you weren't here originally to talk about after last season. Although when you texted me this morning a picture of your ticket stub from seeing it, I was like I gotta hear more. Yeah. But you were here because it's this because it is June and June is Pride Month. Just because it's June, June, June, June.

June, June, June, June. And so Alonzo, you wanted to have us talk about a little bit about kind of like, the question was, I believe, like, when was the first time that we remember seeing kind of like queer representation? on film. Yes. That was the question that you had asked us originally. Yeah. This is a conversation I've had with a lot of queer people

because I think, you know, we were always sort of on the lookout for it. And it sort of, you know, it felt like a signal from the world like, oh, wow, maybe there's this, you know, there's a community out there for me. Or maybe, you know, there's, I'm not alone in the world. Although for people like my age, it was more often than not, oh my God, I'm not that.

You know. And so as people who are equally versed in your, your Solaris's and your bikinis car wash. I thought it would be really interesting to hear what y'all's take on when did you start sort of realizing these characters existed, you know, in the world and in movies? And did it color your judgment of what a queer person was based on, oh, are they all like that or, or, you know, do you immediately know, wait, that's gross, you know? I mean, it depends.

Like, I'll tell you mine. the first time I really remember like perceiving a queer character in movie and I'm sure as a kid I had seen like old screwball comedies with you know Franklin Pangborn or whatever and I knew the sort of the sissy and the persniquity Eric Bloor in the in the Fred Astaire movies

and you're like yeah exactly the sort of uptight and you know fussy and whatever but once I hit puberty and I was looking at movies in a different way do you guys know the 1981 sort of Broadway sort of slasher movie The Fan? No, I don't know that one.

I'm aware that it exists. Okay, so it was based on a novel that was apparently quite successful and it was an epistolary novel. Like the whole thing is letters and faxes and whatever else. But the premise here is basically that Lauren Bacall is a big Broadway star.

I buy it. I believe it. Yes. Weirdly, she was at that point. Like, she actually did win a Tony or two. which is bizarre because lady cannot sing, and you see that in the fan where she has a couple of big numbers that are really embarrassing.

Alonzo, Alonso, maybe this is me being feeling stereotypical about queer people. There's more to Broadway than just musicals. There's straight drama, you know? They don't always sing. But she did musicals. Oh, okay. I'm not judging her based on the thing she wasn't doing.

She actually was in like Woman of the Year and stuff. It wasn't like a revival of death of a salesman or something. Exactly. Yes, yeah. Like there are not enough tunes in Long Day's Journey in the Night. There should be a musical version of Long Day's Journey in tonight. That would be great. Boozies.

Anyway, so yeah, so she's a big broader musical star, and she has a stalker played by a pre-terminator Michael Bean. And the whole time he's sending her these letters that are increasingly, like, obsessive and, like, sexual. And the movie never comes out and says that he's gay, but I think we're sort of meant to pick up on that because he is stalking a woman of Broadway. Nonetheless, there is a part where the police are closing in on him

and he has to fake his own death. So he goes to a gay bar, picks up a guy who is his general-like size and, you know, body type. They go to a rooftop. His pickup initiates off-screen, oral sex on Michael Bean. Michael Bean reaches for a straight razor encased in a pink plastic sheet. by the way, slits the guy's throat, sets him on fire, leaves a suicide note to sort of make the police think

that he has killed himself and, I guess, immolated himself. Once he cut his own throat, he then lit himself on fire, I guess. Yeah, I guess he mentions Savannah Rollo once or twice in the suicide note, perhaps. Anyway, so that was the first time I'd ever seen two men having sex in a movie. And they didn't finish because one of them got his throat slit by the other one. And I was like, okay, but I was, I'm not. We're, you know, that, that movie alone, I think, kept me in the closet for an extra three years, probably.

Oh. So that stuck with me. And that's like a biggie. And the 80s were rife with these kind of really terrible, you know, like the DeBe Moore's next door neighbor in San Amos Fire with the strawberry perched on the lip of his margarita, you know, or, I mean, countless other movies. And also, I think the 80s was prime time for like, the hero gets to say faggot and no one cares, you know, and it's funny. So, you know, this is, I'm older than you guys, but these are the movies of your youth.

These are the films that made you. So, yeah, I would love to hear like your recollections of like, oh, yeah, there was this guy and that lady and, you know, maybe they were good, maybe they were terrible, but, you know, tell me. The first one that comes to mind for me is, which police academy was it where they go to a gay bar? All of them. Yeah.

They always wind up at the blue oyster, which is somehow a bar where leather dudes dance the tango. Which that's what happens at a leather bar. It's always leather night, yeah. There was such a, when we were kids, there was, I think that was probably, something like that is probably the first one for me also. It's something where like, it's a comedy or an action comedy,

and there's a character in it who is either very swishy or is a leather guy or both. And there was this, I feel like growing up, there was this understanding gay men are all incredibly effeminate, but they're also into leather and, you know, tough daddy stuff. And the idea that not all gay people are into leather and not all leather people are gay was such a, like, it just didn't, it just was conflated into like a, into like a general other. And I think, I'm trying to think what the specific one was, but I feel like there's, there were so many, what's the, in the, is it, is it, is it Pronson Pitchot in the Beverly Hills cop movies? who's like... Serge? The surge, the kind of mincing.

But I'll tell you, he actually, I think, is more in the tradition of the old screwball-sissy characters in that he is self-contained and you meet him on his terms. He is not going to meet you on yours. That's true. But I think that's maybe one of the first ones

I remember seeing where it's like, where it's like, oh, this guy is being... Clearly there's like a... There's a lack of, like, at the very least kind of macho quality which I had started like or like a traditional, I don't know, like the hero of the movie masculinity. Right, But like is it.

Yeah, not but yeah, butch. But then as that, but I feel like also when I was growing up, because I'm a little bit, you know, the Nolanto, it was during like what I really remember is kind of like the lady disraeli 90s when suddenly, um, suddenly like the idea of queerness or homosexuality was now a big topic of conversation nationally in a way that, that I think it had been more of an undercurrent before.

And so, like, it felt like, I remember growing up, I was like, it felt like, so, like, did we just discover gay people? Like, is this the thing that, is this like a new thing that happened? And then you go back and watch old movies and you're like, oh, no, it's, you know, this is something that is always been around and aware of. The same way that, like, you watch 30s movies and you're like, wait a minute, they had sex back then. And the people making the movie, like, knew that sex existed, you know. Well, I think, I mean, the late 80s, early 90s is where, like, AIDS was happening. And so, yeah, so, yeah, we were a topic of conversation as a problem. you know, as either objects of pity

or like hide your children they are coming to, you know, give you their cooties. But I remember that started to edge into like, like the like, you know what, it's okay. You know what? Like the... The very special episode of the sitcom where somebody could show you that like,

guys, you know, they're just like you and me. But it was, but I feel like it was like the... Like we showed the first Bill and Ted movie to my older son and I really enjoyed it. But the part where there's just like that one moment. where they're using the effort with each other. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I don't like this.

Well, and to their credit, both Alex Winner and Keanu Reeves are like, you know what, we were young and dumb. And like the apology tour is always fascinating. Like they did one, the Beastie Boys, I think were, you know, kind of like looking back at their early stuff. So, you know, I'm all for, Eddie, well, yeah, Eddie Murphy. Because I was saying, because Beverly Hills Cop does give you Eddie Murphy doing his little mincy, limp-wrist thing.

and talking about having, you know, herpes, simplex 10 or whatever. It's like, ugh. I feel like that was the era when it was like, Eddie McWilliam, like, we're seeing Robin Williams doing like his, his kind of mincing voice, his kind of like, like pre-birdcage when it's not, this is a character I'm playing, but this is just like a voice I'm doing in a routine. And everyone, and the joke is, can you,

this is hilarious that I'm doing this voice or something like that. Yeah, I mean, I'd have to parse all of the Robin Williams stuff, but I mean, I think he had at least sort of a San Francisco background. and I think kind of was mining that more for the comedy of the outrageousness than the like, look at this silly homo, you know. Yeah, I guess that's probably true. But I think in some ways, when looking back on it, I didn't realize at the time, but I think the first character, like, first queer character I've seen,

might have been now that I assume that Stiles, the character from Teen Wolf, the best friend, I believe is a is a, is a closeted character. And he has a moment where he says that, when he says he's not as a joke. But I'm like, there's no way. There's no way this character is not in love. with Michael J. Fox. Yeah.

But people who say it the loudest sometimes, you know, especially when you're a teenager. I remember that, so when I was a kid, I, you know, I just, I really loved, I loved the movie Zorro the Gay Blade. Oh, me too. Because the thing was, like, I just loved Zorro.

I love the character of Zorro. And Zora the Gay Blade is this movie that I don't know at all how I would react to now. I haven't seen it since then. but like she had a twin brother who was forced to take over the mantle of Zorro, his twin brother Bunny. Bunny Wigglesworth. Yeah, who was very effeminate.

But like as a kid watching this movie, loving Zorro and not knowing anything about gay people, I'm just like, oh, this is his funny twin. Like there's like none of it like registered to me as like, I think a gay stereotype, even though it's in the title. I'm just like, oh, this is a fun adventure movie. with jokes. This big goosey guy. No, but here's the thing.

Like, for me, and, you know, you ask 20 gay people, you'll get different answers on this. I love Zora of the Gay Blade. And what I think is great is that he is never the butt of the joke, at least in terms of, you know, yes, we're meant to laugh

at his wild, outrageous sense of fashion, the fact that he, like, turns these Zoro outfits into these, like, fringe, you know, kind of like crazy things. But he is as effective, with the bullwhip as Zorro is with the sword, and he wins. He wins the day.

He is always defeating and shaming the bad guys in the way that Zorro would. And so weirdly, it's this kind of like, yeah, we're meant to laugh at how campy and outrageous and over the top you are, but you are also a Zoro-level superhero, you know? Yeah. No.

I think you're reminding me. I also think that, like, I loved Indiana Jones so much. I just like, I thought whips were cool, So I'm like, this cool guy has a whip. It was a brief period when whips were like the weapon, the cool weapon of choice, even though they're maybe the hardest thing in the world to use. Yeah.

You'll put an eye out. Yeah. But I can't believe we haven't talked about C3PO, by the way, the original game robot. Thank you. He was a real role model for me. They did something recently where they, so in the Mad Magazine parody of

Star Wars that first came out. They had a joke from R2D2 where he says, oh great, I'm stuck here with an F word robot. And they changed it for a recent, more recent reprint, they changed it to, I'm stuck here with a gay robot. And it's like, well, it's still the same joke. You just took at the slur.

But it's still the same. You have a changed what the joke is. I mean, but yeah, but it's not wrong. I mean, he's a C3 is totally a gay robot. He's one of those characters who I've always loved C3PO. And I think, that was one where, like, not until I was older was I like, oh, I see this, this kind of,

this kind of stereotype that he's, that he could be is. But I was always just like, yeah, I love that he's always complaining. I love that he's very specific about what he wants or doesn't want. He's fussy. He's fussy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is totally the, he's the Franklin Pangborn of the Star Wars universe. Yes, I love Franklin Pangor.

You know, in the 90s, there was a web zine called Blair, named, of course, for the character from the facts of life. And they had an article called Lamar Latrell is the total god of you. and it was a celebration of the Lamar Latrell character from Revenge of the Nerds, whom you may recall, like, you know, when they have the field day with the other frats, like they, the physicists and the nerds design a javelin

that can be thrown with his limp-risted style that makes it go further. But again, Lamar Latrell is fully himself and he is one of the nerds. He is one of our heroes. He is one of the put upon characters. The other nerds accept him. So any blowback that he receives from straight people, you know,

in every sense of that word in this movie, just makes him part of our underdog heroes. So as much as there are elements of that character that you could point to as being kind of silly and stereotypical, you know, he, again, gets to win. Yeah, yeah. So is that how, when you're looking at, would you say that's the way to look at kind of like,

judging the, for lack of a better word, like, offensiveness or inoffensiveness of the characters, is also kind of like, how does the character treated within the narrative in terms of like, are we on their side and not just judging it based on, are they enacting stereotypes that are, you know, that we recognize are, can be used in offensive ways? Yeah, I think so.

Because, I mean, I think the narrative has a voice about what we're meant to think about these characters and how we're meant to understand whether they are good or bad or, you know, heroic or villainous or whatever it is. There's a terrible movie from the late 60s called The Gay Deceivers. And it's about these two dudes who pretend to be a gay couple so that they can avoid getting drafted and sent to Vietnam. So it's like Three's Company, the movie. Yeah.

Kind of, yeah. And so to maintain the illusion of it, they move in together in this apartment complex in West Hollywood that is run by a guy named Melville. Welcome to John, and the actor playing him is the great Michael Greer. You might know him from Messiah of Evil or Fortune in Men's Eyes. And he basically rewrote the character and turns him what could have very easily just been a sort of swishy stereotype joke into this fabulous presence who is nobody's fool and is large and in charge. And he makes that movie worth watching because he is so. in charge of the situation and such a fun character and such a character who is in control of his domain

that yeah, even though the movie itself is patently offensive on numerous occasions, and all the stuff with the straight lead characters is just like they say some shit you wouldn't believe, you know, but you're waiting for Malcolm to John to come back on screen and just be fabulous and put the whole thing in his pocket. I will say that even when it's, a positive description in like, this is a hero way.

Sometimes the stuff that we grew up with, I remember, like, part of me is like, oh, it's really to my parent and my brother's credit bringing me up that even as like a straight male living in cornfields in the Midwest, I was able to look at mannequin and be like, this Hollywood character is a bit much. kind of insulting, I think, to... I think it's playing into some stereotypes here. Yeah, I mean, again, I think a lot of it has to do with who's telling this story, you know, like, did a queer person write it or direct it?

Is there a queer actor playing the role? Is the character, you know, allowed to have a love life or a sex life? You know, or are they just there to be the shoulder to cry on or the helper, the magical homo, if you will, of the straight protagonist. I always talk about how, you know, Hallmark movies have the Black Friend on phone, which is, you know,

the woman, the friend that the white heroine will talk to throughout the movie to tell her what's going on with her relationship and the support of Black Friend does a lot of nodding on the phone. It's kind of like so many horror movies have the person of color who has a closer connection to the supernatural and can tell the white hero

what's going on with the thing that's haunting them or cursing them. Yeah. Like ghost? Is it the horror of Party Beach that has the maid who keeps saying it's the voodoo I tells you? Yes. Although the funniest moment, but she's also the smartest character in that movie because there's the part where he goes,

he's looking for sodium to destroy these monsters. And he goes, I called a couple places and I can't find it. And she goes, you call every place. She yells at him. Call all of them. Huh. Hey, I hadn't thought about that.

But yeah, so you have like, I think there are a lot of times where the gay character is there to like give the heroin want a makeover, you know, or whatever to just sort of be in service of but not have any actual inner life of their own. So, I mean, yeah, I think at least with Hollywood, in the first or second movie, I think he's got like an implied boyfriend, right? It's been so long as I've seen either of them, I don't remember. But, but you don't watch mannequin all the time a lot of time?

I know. It's one of my many failings. What do you do during mannequinsgiving? What do you watch it? But that reminds, so I think one of the earlier ones where I think I might have been warfully aware is a character, is it's like the, is the Harvey Firestein character in Mrs. Doubtfire. Oh, yeah. It's like, where it's like he is there to give Robin Williams a makeover into a, it to be a woman. But also like he does have a husband or at least a partner, you know, a long-term partner who's living with him. Like you do get a sense that he has a life outside of appearing in this scene.

Yeah, that couple is referred to as like. Uncle Jim and Aunt Jack or something, whatever the characters are. Like, it is very clearly stated they're a couple. And for a kids movie in the 90s, that's a huge leap forward. You know, like the fact that these two people, they're not just roommates or not just pals,

they are referred to as aunt and uncle, even that that's a joke, that at least is a joke that says, they're a couple. This is how you know them in our family. So, yeah, that in a tiny way is actually a big step forward. It's such a weird thing where there's a, because sexuality as with race is such a messy thing in terms of like people's understanding

or acceptance of things that are different from them. There's so many movies like that where it's like this is a little bit more progressive than you would think, but it's also kind of regressive in this other way. Like those characters do it are also like makeup and mask experts who are there to like put him, put him through a makeup montage, basically. And you see that it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a. It's hard to find that clear cut of like, oh, this is a good version of it. This is a bad version of it because you're also living within the stereotypical assumptions of the world that the movie is existing in and reflecting and stuff like that.

But you're right. It's a big thing in that movie that it's like, oh, yeah, they're members of our family. We have no question about their relationship. Like that's, we love them and this is how they love and that's it. You know, it's just for taking for granted. And I think the fact that these guys are like working with latex and stuff, it's not just like, oh, I'm going to give you a smoky eye. They don't work at a, it's not, oh yeah, my swishy brother-in-law who works at a salon. You know, it's like, oh, these are professional makeup artists.

You know, they make masks. If one of the looks they had given Robin Williams was like, you know, the T-1000 with like one robot eyes sticking out, that would be, you know. I don't think you're going to get this job as a man. Now I wish that was it. Instead of like different types of women in that montage, she was like different monsters. That would have really butch them up, you know. We can do everything. He keeps terrifying the kids

He comes home and tries to be Yeah, I don't think we want to hire the Gilman as our nanny This is kind of up to the side of them What a great movie that would be if it's like It's not just that he's pretending to be a nanny But he's pretending to be a monster Nanny And it's like, yeah, we wanted to hire a monster

That's called Monster Nanny Yeah $7,000 would be obvious A mummy is obvious Yeah, mommy's too easy, too easy, yeah This is kind of off to the side of the current part of what we're talking about. But I was thinking about how growing up in rural Illinois at a time when like, you know, any gay people around me would have been closeted mostly. It just what it did to my ability to pick up on any sort of subtext in anything, which is to say like I didn't have it as a child.

But I just remember watching, you know, fried green tomatoes and being like, I think these women are more than just friends. You know, based on an expressly lesbian novel, but in the movie they took out, you know, any sort of. Yeah, that's an infuriating adaptation. No, no. I really pulled back on it. When I found out, I was very mad. You had the same experience. Let's be in love.

Yeah. But Dan, you had the same experience when you watch Desert Hearts as a kid, right? Like they're like, I think these women might be, hold on. They're naked together in bed. And then when you watched Bound and you were like, I think these women might be, hold on. You're like, female friendships, they're just so much more comfortable with each other. But, and again, I think, you know, it was pelifying. That's what the early 90s that was, that was, there was such a terror of that stuff.

Because, yeah, I mean, Fannie Flagg is a lesbian. Like, you know, she was, you know, involved with, with Rita May Brown for years. And so, and the book is pretty clear about that relationship. And I think if you'd made that movie 10 years later. The original title is fried green lesbians, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

But if you made it. At the dream, horrifying. Do you think, and do you think, if they made it today, do you think they would just not, they would be more. They would be very straightforward about it now. I do, I do remember, this is, I mean, this is a little bit.

later, and this speaks more to me confronting my own bullshit. But I remember, I think it was somewhere in college when But I'm a cheerleader came out. I feel like that was, not only was it very campy, but it was also like such an overt, like a depiction of a lesbian coming, coming of understanding and lesbian romance. And I feel like at the time, it was, it felt very confrontational to me because I feel like it was, I feel like it was, very much a moment of college Stewart who was already insecure being like, but wait, I'm not

necessary anymore. And like, it was something that it took. Where's the me and all this? Yeah, I had to unpack at the time and obviously have come to understand. I've been led to believe I'm at the center of human civilization. What's going on? But, I mean, that does come from the fact that, you know,

similar to Dan, I came from, a fairly Midwestern, closeted universe. I think I've told this story before, but I just think he deserves his, his plotits whenever I can give him to him. I remember very clearly when I was young, my brother, John, saying to me, for some reason, like, I don't know what the context was. You're going to grow up. You're going to fall in love with a woman. Or you might fall in love with a man.

You might be gay. And that's okay, too. And I'll love you no matter what. I'm like, looking back on that, to be given that so young, I'm so appreciative that he did that. because I don't, I feel like it really did mean that I'm like, oh, yeah, sure. That's fine. You know, I grew up feeling. But now you know, looking back, you should have said it doesn't have to be a binary, you know.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, he's canceled. He's canceled. Yeah, exactly. He didn't address every possible situation. You could find yourself in a polycule, you know. But, you know, to Stewart's point, yeah, there are movies that come along that really, you know, shake it up and I think get, you know,

Desert Heart certainly was one of those movies. For me, I remember going with my, my best friend in college, Kurt Holman, to see both my beautiful laundrette and prick up your ears, both of which have these, you know, are like, like, my beautiful laundrette has that amazing scene where they're out in the street and Daniel Day Lewis secretly, like, licks the guy's neck, you know,

and prick up your ears, you know, They're like cottaging, you know, they're like going to public men's rooms and picking up dudes and stuff. And both of those movies, I remember sitting there being like, Stoneface, Stoneface, no reaction. Do not. Don't show the world. Don't show the world what this means to me. Don't, do not gasp, nothing. Just keep it on lockdown, you know.

And obviously when I, Kurt was one of the first people I came out to and he was great about it. But I wasn't ready to go there yet. But these movies were showing me something that I hadn't seen before. And this was not the fan, you know. this was like, even though things don't work out well for Joe Wharton at the end of Prink Up Your Ears, nonetheless, it's not directly tied to him having sex with people. So, yeah, so I think it's great when you see that movie that isn't like a big Hollywood production that suddenly is like, you know, oh, wait a minute, this is also a thing.

Although now, I mean, I guess for some people it could be a Hollywood production. You could see Love Simon or something and it would, you know, change your, your perspective on what this stuff even means, you know? Well, it's the, I mean, it's the value of having, it's the value of storytelling and many different people telling stories, right? Is it like, I think it gets boiled down to, um, to the idea of representation, but that's like a simple, it's like a very simple basic way to look at it.

But the idea of like you could, it's not just the thrill of going and seeing something that you haven't seen before that means something to you particularly on screen, but seeing something that that is out. outside of the realm of what you understood was possible in any way. Like, that's the magic of stories and movies and things like that. You know, it's the Ebert line that everybody always likes to quote. The movies are a machine that creates empathy, you know.

Yeah, I have an issue with that quote. I have an issue with that quote. But still, you know. Because I think movies can also be used to create hatred. Well, of course. Yeah. The machine that creates only empathy. Yeah.

But I think that's about every possible. But I think that's often how the quote is used. The same way that, like, there's a machine. the same way that... They can create... Well, the same way that people talk about, like... And this is totally off topic, so I apologize. When they're like, comedy is only funny

when it punches up. Well, that's not true. Like, there is... Part of the problem with comedy is that it can be funny when it punches down, so you've got to be discerning audience, you know? True. But I...

Anyway. Anyway. But I do think that seeing characters that are, you know, not you in a movie, you know, that's where the empathy part comes in. And so, yeah, I think for a lot of people, their awareness that

a queer people exist and B, queer people have a right to exist and are not a direct threat to them and just want to live their own lives and fall in their own way. You know, I think for a lot of people, movies provide the

way for them to get there. But to Elliot's point, I think also a lot of homophobia is probably engendered by what people saw in movies in the late 60s and 70s and beyond because, you know, we were invisible pretty much during the, the Hays Code period. You look at the movie version of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

Well, you're like, what's this guy's problem? Exactly. What's pretty upset about? His best friend died? That's pretty sad, but I don't know why he's impotent now. And it's like, oh, it's because he's in love with him. Oh, I understand. Yeah.

Or like, you know, Crossfire, you know, which was a book about a gay bashing that becomes a movie about anti-Semitism. Okay, sure. They were like, we can admit that Jews exist now. It's a bolder. For American cinema. And like you're saying, in those movies in the 60s and 70s where being queer is synonymous with being psychotic, essentially, in some way, you know, or sadistic in some way. Or pathetic.

You know, that's also, that was also an option. Like, there's like a, at least for me, I feel like a lot of what I saw in movies was a certain seediness, a certain danger. And, but at the same time, there was like the femininity or like anything that others something so that it's like, stay away person. And they were talking about with queer men in particular because you would have similar, not as often we'd seen movies queer women who were, they're, they're, it's the same problem because they're super-butch, they're super-masculine, you know, super-tuff, you know.

Super-butch, or they're like scheming to try and take women away from men. Superbutch also sounds like a great, like, sort of zine comic. Superbuch is like an underground comics. You'd be buying a head shop, an underground poplix book. Yeah, her four-issue team up with Hothead Pizan. But it's a, it's a, it's interesting. I mean, it shows you how like a movie reflects the assumptions or the, or the stereotype society, but then it also perpetuates them at the same time, you know, and it's a, and like there's a lot of people who,

I certainly like, there are, I remember seeing the first time I saw Blacula. And there's like, there's, there's, there's, there's, Blacula's coffin is discovered by these antique dealers who are very much, you know, like stereotypes of swishy gay men of, you know, in the 70s. And it's one of these things where it's like, oh, so like these characters are like they don't, of course they have no, the plot does not need them to have much of an interior life. They're just there to like bring black yellow back to life. To be bitten. Yeah, to be big. But it's like the, that trying to parse when I saw it like, what is the reaction they intended the audience to have to these characters? Because were they supposed to be comic relief characters or was it supposed to be some other aspect of like, oh, this is a horrory movie?

so there's like these are these kind of other kind of deviant type people. It's like it was a very strange thing to me. It was also. They're deserving of their fate. Oh my right. Yeah, just or something like that. But the characters were, it was a, and I like, it became like a real, I had a lot of trouble enjoying the rest of blackylla because I kept thinking about, trying to. And otherwise, what's a problem?

Otherwise, it's an impeccable movie, you know. Such a funny statement. Yeah. I mean, because like you go back to silent cinema and you see examples of like, oh, God, I forget the movie now, but there's some movies like said in the West or whatever, and one character, somebody sees like Charlie Chaplin kissing a woman in drag and thinks that Charlie has just kissed a man.

And so this guy immediately starts like flouncing about in this very specific way. And it's like, oh, this was coded in the 1920s. People already knew what these arm movements and little hip swishes and whatever tiptoe walking meant, you know. And so, yeah, I think it's an easy laugh for audience who assume, well, nobody in this room is that. So let's all find that hilarious, you know.

But yeah, I think Stuart's right, there's also that, what I think Andrew Seris once referred to as the Twilight Demiomond, you know, the sort of, you know, the seedy underbelly of the big city where, you know, the gays and the heroin addicts all gather, you know. And they're always looking for victims. Yeah, they're always looking to corrupt somebody into a world of, Into a dangerous world of antiquing And listening to Judy Garland albums

Or whatever else Whatever other stereotypical things they're doing Because that's the It's like it's that weird Yeah it's that weird flip thing Of the stereotype is either pitiful and weak Or incredibly sinister and dangerous But they exist in this together

And because they and they exist as a An opposition to what I guess is supposed to be like For men especially like the proper role Or proper whatever you know And again We see this today in like the, you know, ask a hard-right conservative, and they will tell you that, you know, immigrants to this country are both lazy welfare mooches and they're taking all your jobs.

Yeah. You know, so you somehow manage to do both those things at the same time because they're all bad. And it's the similar thing with antisemitism has always been that way, where Jews are both kind of subhuman vermin, but they're also so incredibly brilliant that they, managed to control the entire world and take over everything, despite being, like, weak and having none of the strengths of, you know, of the Gentile human beings.

It's a, it's a, it really goes to show you that there's not really much rational thought in bigotry, you know. It's never based. You know, it's never based on a really, at a really straightforward, consistent philosophy. There's a, um, I just, I just, I just, we hate you. We hate use. That's that part of consistent. I don't list.

Consistently, I don't like. like you, you know, yeah. Ready go. Knock, knock. Who's there? We got this. With Mark and Howl? You knew this one.

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not to shift too much, but in the 90s I feel like there was also a shift where we did see, you had mentioned before, but it felt like there was an increased representation of gay characters, but it, on some level,

it felt like these characters were often presented where their, like their chief struggle is against the repercussions of them being gay. Like, so by having sex with a person of the same gender, they're going to die or something.

Yeah, I mean... It's the 90s version of the tragic mulatto. You know, like their lot in life is to suffer and eventually pay for the sins of humanity, you know, yeah. Yeah, the 90s, there's a lot going on. Because first you've got, on the one hand, you have like, the new queer cinema, you know, like in 90, poison and Paris is burning

both win the jury prizes at Sundance, you know? And suddenly you've got like Gregoraki and Gus Van Santon and Rose Troche and, you know, you know, Cheryl Dunier and all these filmmakers who are... John Waters. He's been around the river. He is, like...

It's so funny. John Waters is like, I mean, he's the... Like, I think about this all the time that, like, you watch his older movies and they're genuinely filthy. Like, they're genuinely, like, really out-trade. Yeah, they earn the word subversive in a way a lot of movies don't.

And just by lasting, he has become such a, like, mainstream beloved figure in a way that, Like, it reminds me so much. I mean, this is the negative way to put it, but the line in Chinatown when they're talking about, when John Houston has the line about like, that rich people are like,

they're like ugly buildings and prostitutes. If they last long enough, they become respectable. Well, I think Nick Jagger said, you know, in America, they try to ban you and then they put you in a museum. Yeah. Which, and both of those things have literally happened to John Waters. So, yeah. So you're saying in that, so you had this, you had this in,

in the 90s you had this like outburst of... Yeah, you have this indie boom, you know, of like, of low-budget queer films. And then kind of this sort of like crossover into commercial and even mainstream movies where suddenly they were like, oh, there's money to be had here because we were such a starved audience at that point.

We would run out to see whatever it was. With, let's face it, disposable income because, you know, it's not wasting them on children most of the time like I am. Yeah, they're all dinks, right? Well, I mean later, not so much. But yes, at that time, sure. let's say yes.

But, you know, so then you start getting movies like in and out or even like, like, you know, a Jeffrey, you know, where like you've got big names are attached and you're getting released into like, you know, big city art houses and maybe even some suburban multiplexes. Philadelphia? Is that in there? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's right in there. But that falls more in the category of like the sort of,

that's almost like a movie Stanley Kramer could have made. Yeah, that's a message picture. Exactly, about social issues, you know, but an important one, you know, and I think for a lot of people, their first time seeing a queer character who was the hero and who was played by Tom Frickin' Hanks, you know, and they get to follow a Denzel's journey of going from like homophobic and AIDSphobic and, you know, not wanting to deal with this stuff to completely accepting and loving this other, you know, character and wanting to save him and wanting to, you know, like help him seek justice.

But yeah, I think also, like, there is that thing in the 90s. There's that residual, you know, AIDS panic, certainly. I think it manifests itself probably most vividly in the, what we call the Michael Douglas Sexual Panic Trilogy. Fatal attraction, basic instinct, and disclosure, which are completely heterosexual movies, but they're all about AIDS, really, because they're about, like, you know, married dudes, you stray,

and it's going to blow up in your face, and you better watch it. He is just so fuckable is the thing. That's true. When you're that hot, what are you going to do? He has so much sex he gave him cancer. Dan, that's not how it happened. What?

I mean, it could be. No, we can't. Yeah, I can. That's actually. That's actually. I actually have a friend who just got through that same cancer from likely, the same cause from HV.

Well, maybe that's how it would happen with Michael Douglas then. I don't know. So, I mean, I just wouldn't conflate him as a real person with the characters he played in the movies. Like he wasn't, it's not like those experiences in fatal attraction and basically things that actually happened to him.

What? I thought those were documentaries. Glenn Close is alive? Ah, someone's stopper. But the bunny's okay, right? Stuart, I got to talk to you after the show. That bunny is still alive today. So yeah, I just, you know, you guys talk about like, you know, 80s exploitation a lot.

You know, it's clearly, I think, you know, movies that meant a lot to you guys. And I just find that's such a fascinating period in terms of, you know, it was sort of the last gasp of like, oh, you're just going to say faggot out loud. And we're all supposed to accept that, you know. And so, yeah, you know, it's not like. We can't still point to movies to be like, ugh, I can't, this, this, this is problematic, or I question your, you know, what you were thinking with this. But I think I, I'm going to say for the most part,

we, you know, we were not, we're no longer in those waters. Yeah. No, it is. Yeah. There are several reasons why, uh, being a fan of like 80s trash, like, really like, uh, hurts my heart in certain ways. I mean, I think any time, any time. Anytime you're a fan of trash.

Like, trash is going to reflect, no matter how great. Sure. Trash is going to reflect the, often the worst of a, because it's going for the basest instincts. Not the most basic instincts, but the basis instinct. And so like it's going to reflect that stuff. But it's also like that's the price you pay by loving culture. Is that you don't get to just, you can,

you want to find pleasure in the things from before and the world has not always been what it is. It's not, you know, people have not always been as understanding as, as they are. And so it's like, it's the same thing with, like, we talk about movies because it's a movie podcast, but it's the same thing with books or plays or, you know, any depiction of reality is going to reflect the understandings of reality of the people who made it. And those understand.

And their limitations, yeah. Exactly. And their limitations, which is not to excuse it. But it also means that, like, you just got to be ready for it. And there's this may be a little bit selfish, but there's something about watching, like, trash sales. where you're put now as an older person who's maybe a little more enlightened, you're able to look back and be like,

I can identify that as gross. And that signifies that I am a better person. I feel better. You're like, I'm still watching this. I can identify the parts. I'm not that much better. But it's also like, it's like when this came out, this is things that people felt comfortable saying out loud.

You know, and like, they were, this was a bit that they were happy to commit to and they didn't see any problem with it. When Criterion recently put out Risky Business, which is a movie that I was obsessed with in high school, Glenn Kenney did this great piece. It was like, thank God it holds up. Like, there's nothing in this movie

that is so glaringly 80s. Like, there's even, there is a trans sex worker in that movie and they are treated with respect in risky business. And it's just like, whew, because so much, so much from the 80s, I mean, my God. The early John Hughes, Oprah, you're just like, oh, did we do that?

It's such a joy to find older stuff and assume it's going to not hold up and then be like, oh, wow, like, I mean, this is a dumb one, but like rewatching old episodes of Nightcourt, I'm like, wow, Dan Fielding was actually fairly progressive by being like a lethario. Yeah, well, look, as opposed to, you know, once the Gen Z started watching friends during the pandemic, it was like, uh-oh. Or Starship Troopers. Wow. Starship Trovers is a movie that people don't get, and that's their problem. That is so, it's so, I mean, I find it so funny when Starship Troopers came out,

they were like, Paul Rovin doesn't realize he's made a pro-Nazi movie. And it's like, dude, I think he knows what he's doing. I think a lot of people, and I'm going to make a national judgment here, maybe particularly in America, feel the need to, like, hold themselves above whatever heard they're watching, which allows them to make assumptions that, like, the blindingly

obvious thing in front of them was, like, done by mistake somehow. It's like, oh, does you know he's wearing a Nazi uniform? Yeah. Like, that's the signifier that is supposed to tell you how to feel about the movie. Well, it's like, I mean, like I was saying about how they didn't, like, invent sex after the 30s. Like, you watch a movie like the gang's all here and that whole dance number with those giant bananas and you're like, and they're like, did they realize these are foul?

Of course they did. They had penises then. Like they knew what they'd. They'd been invented by that point. Yeah, look, I just started watching the boys for the first time. And I gobsmacked that anybody watched the first season of this show. Yes. And didn't immediately get what the show was about.

Like, I remember hearing like somewhere on like episode three, people were like, oh my God, the show's gone all woke. And I'm like, it's right there from the beginning. Like, he is not the hero. It's a text. It's not the good guy. Well, I think there's a lot. There's a lot of people who they don't know how to read a story.

Like they don't know how to read what the story is trying to tell them. But also when, especially when something is like Starship Troopers or like the boys, they're using the, they're re-contextualizing something to make it to make a point, you know, that people just, they don't know how to understand that new context yet. And so they just assume that it means the thing that they've always expected it to mean, you know. Right. Like if you did a movie where this would never happen. But if, like, John Wayne had done, or I guess maybe he did. I guess if you look at the searchers and you look at like John Wayne's character and that is a racist and he is shut out from society, not just because, oh, he's too strong for this world, but because he cannot make the acceptances in his heart that he needs to in order to be a part of society. And but you still, and it's so it is, it is such a strong statement about that John Wayne character.

But a lot of people still watch it and they're like, John Wayne, what a hero. Yeah, he's the hero in the movie. Because I know John Wayne and he's in it. He must be the hero. It's the Roche. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of, I think that's kind of what doesn't work for me about Unforgiven is that Clint Eastwood is such an icon at that point.

And for him to play this character who is so messed up, I remember seeing it with an audience. And when he starts shooting everybody at the end and you're supposed to think, oh, no, this character is now lost to the dark side of his soul. And they're all like, yeah, do it, do it. Yeah. Clint may be. What a picture. I mean, as much as I love Clint Eastwood's work. And I think he is, I thought, I love.

I love juror number two. I thought it was so, I thought that was such a... You and I differ, my friend. No, I really liked it a lot. No, I really liked a lot. But with Unforgiven, I think there is part of it. Juror number three will turn you guys around.

The third one. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought it really improved on juror one, which had potential, you know. But at the, but I think in Unforgiven, I wonder if there's a part of him where he's like, I want to say this, but I don't quite know how to say this.

And he falls back into kind of the old patterns also. Like, I feel like Unforgiven, it hits its point when they shoot that guy who's sitting in an outhouse. and then everything after that is like, yeah, all right, like, that's, I mean, that's the moment of the movie that hit its point, you know, so. Well, and to bring this back to our topic, like, when cruising came out in 1980, a lot of queer people were mad about that movie while it was being made because we'd been absent from the screen, and now here's this movie about, like, these serial killers in the leather world, you know. And the same with basic incident. When that came out, I remember the protests.

Oh, yeah, for sure. But in both cases, I think those movies have evolved in a way that, like, for example, when, cruising was being made, a lot of people in the leather community were thrilled. They were like, oh, great, we're in a movie. Like, we are being shown as part of the queer community because so often, you know, this is in the era when, like, leather guys and drag queens were often being discouraged from, like, being in the parade because, you know, they weren't sort of like, you know, heteronormative, you know, assimilationist enough.

But, yeah, as cruising ages, I think people have a lot of different reads on it. I mean, you can just look at that movie as this kind of, like, anthropological of a New York that no longer exists, you know, that whole, the meatpacking district where all those bars are, those are condos now, you know, and, and the brambles and, and, and, and that community was about to get hit so hard by AIDS, that is this moment in history that is at least captured, you know, and basic instinct, same thing.

A lot of lesbians have since sort of embrace that movie. It's like, Sharon Stone is a badass in this movie. She's in charge. She is calling all the plays. she is befuddling and bewitching everybody else in the movie. She's the smartest person in the movie by far. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you know, for a movie that at the time, people were furious about because it was like,

yet another queer killer, she is such a cool customer and such a glamorous object and such a, you know, again, people are coming to her on her own terms that audiences respond to that. And I'm fine with queer villains in a context where there's queer everything. I think that's the, I think I was going to ask if you thought that was the difference maybe is that at a time when the only queer representation was as villains or victims. I was going to ask about Silence of the Lambs for instance. Yeah, like that means something different than in a world where you have multiple types of queer characters and so you can have a queer villain without it being like this is the one version of it. This is speaking for everyone. Yeah, totally.

No, yeah, I think it makes a huge difference. And Silence of the Lambs, you know, is still argued about in queer circles. I think everybody acknowledges it's a great movie, obviously. It is, you know... It's no journey number two, but yeah, it's all right. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it'll do. But no, it's just this extraordinary thriller, but it's like, you know,

how are we meant to read this, you know, trans a serial killer essentially, we're given this, you know, and I think, again, it's the context of like, are we seeing all kinds of trans characters, are we seeing all kinds of queer characters, or is this it, you know? And partly because it's not only a great

thriller, but it also is a presentation of like, like, uh, like earthy American life, like steel town life. So you see like a lot of extras that look very regular and normal people. And then you have this one like seedy character. I've, like it further complicates it for me at least. Yeah. I mean, there, there's a lot with that character that I think in a, in a world where you're seeing a variety of characters, a variety of, of, you know, transmask, trans femme representation

in movies, then it just becomes part of, you know, the tapestry. But at the time, you know, there were so few, I mean, G's and L's, let alone T's in movies and certainly that were being presented as heroic or even protagonists. Yeah, I get why at the time that movie upset a lot of people. And, you know, you hear conflicting reports about whether or not. Jonathan Demi went on to make Philadelphia as a maya culpa or not, you know, like, who even knows. But yeah, it has been fascinating. You know, we've been getting a lot of great trans voices in film criticism in the last few years.

Like, if you have not picked up corpses, fools, and monsters by Willow Caitlin McLeigh and Caden Mark Gardner, that's a book that will actually tell you what's great about Glenn or Glenda. You know, they will take these sort of texts that. have been discarded and be like, well, actually this has this to say about the trans experience. I mean, Glenn of Lenda, maybe one of the most progressive movies ever made in a lot of ways. For the 50s, absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's trying for something. And it's trying to, like, you know, make a plea for tolerance and understanding, you know. And a plea for using Buffalo stock footage and things.

Yeah, I mean, it's like that the characters left not with like a rejection. But instead with a like, well, let's figure out how to get, how to be together. Let's share Angora's Sweeters. Exactly. You know, the, uh, uh, B.J. and Harmony Colangelo wrote an entire book about sleepaway camp, which got made trans people very angry at the time. But I think, you know, there's a, I don't know, what were they so upset about? No, but I think there's a, there's a way that these, these texts exist where even something that is considered at the time like negative or, you know, like people, you know, people used to think,

and to this day still think like the boys in the band is a terrible representation of like queer life. But it's there and it's an attempt to at least tap into some real truths and an acknowledgement of our existence.

You know, like I'll even say during the Hays Code years, you know, you could you could pick apart Hitchcock, you know, giving us like Mrs. Danvers and Rebecca or, you know... Or Bruno and Strangers on the train. Yeah, exactly. Robert Walker's character or like, you know,

or Norman Bates or whoever as being these negative representations, but it's like, but at least we're there. I guess that's, you know. I guess that's the question, would you rather, the question would you rather be invisible or would you rather be acknowledged in a, in a less than positive way, you know?

Yeah, neither are great choices. They're both terrible choices. You know, and I think, I think it's the, it's the fact that we've moved past those two choices that now allows us to look back at the negative ones and say, like, well, at least they, you know, they got this, or they included us in this, or they make this acknowledgement.

Like, you know, I think it's too easy to just dismiss something as terrible or reprehensible or, you know, negative. But if you approach it in a different way, you know, my God, I just read like a fascinating book about the history of the children's hour on screen from these three, which was the sort of cleaned up version to the eventual movie of it.

Like, yeah, I think that any text, even if it was reviled at the time, can later yield some kind of insight into the queer experience as it was either being lived or at least being perceived and understood by straight people. The people who, for better or worse, have been that storytellers were quite some time? Keep taking the jobs.

Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, yeah. So we should start to wrap up. But are there particular, are there, I was wondering if they're either, You mentioned just now, Corpses, Fools and Monsters, but are there other books or are there recent movies or forgotten movies that you would recommend to people

we're like, this is worth watching, not just for historical purposes, but like this is, you know, this is one that you're really going to get something special. Oh, sure, yeah. Well, yeah, definitely, Corp's Fools and Monsters and the Sleepaway Camp book by the Calangeloes. Also, Trevelle Anderson,

a former Max Fun host, has a book called, we see each other about trans representation in film. That was very helpful to me as I was writing Hollywood Pride, pointed out several folks that, you know, like artists that I didn't know about and characters on screen that I didn't know about. As far as recent movies, a queer movie of recent vintage,

I think it's on canopy, that I've been really trying to press onto people because I feel like it got generally overlooked in its release. It's an Italian movie called Limensita. It stars Penelope Cruz as the mother of a trans son. But it's Italy in the early 70s, and nobody understands what is going on with this, quote, unquote, girl. You know, and they don't understand his behavior.

But the kid has this very rich fantasy life of his own involving, you know, what his future is going to be like or how he can exist in the world as a boy, as the boy that he understands himself to be. And so it's got these really big fun, like kind of musical numbers that are fantasy sequences, but there's also this really cool thing where there's this encampment of people living in the woods across the street from their high-rise apartment. And he goes there and hangs out and just presents himself as a boy. And that's how they welcome him.

And he gets to sort of live this separate existence where he just gets to be a boy and nobody asks him questions about it. So that's a film that I really love that I would love for more people to see. So yeah, go look for it. Mancata. Mancetan. Well, Dan, do you have any other, I mean, you're kind of the expert on this stuff, though. So, Dan, do you have any other thoughts about queer representation in film or, you know, with the experience of it? I mean, I was going to talk about seeing cruising for the first time last year, but I feel like the moment's passed, so we can just wrap things.

I want to talk about my favorite movie of the year so far, Pillion. Woo! Okay. Well, maybe not my... But it's up there. It's up there. Yeah, yeah. Your favorite was the Mandalorian and Grogo.

Yeah, yeah. But as somebody was not in that community, I found it to be really affecting, in part because of the way that it presents, like, kink and that the, like, I guess, BDSM or leather culture in such a, like, plain format. Like, yep, and they don't seem to make a joke out of it. But I don't know.

How do you feel about it, Alonzo? I liked it a lot. I actually think it would be a really good double feature with Baby Girl, the recent Nicole Kidman movie. Because I kind of feel like they're both sort of coming out movies for kinksters. You know, they're about people who are able to sort of understand this is what I want and this is what I like and this is what I respond to and this is what I don't want. You know, and so it's about people understanding themselves, declaring that to the world and also setting the boundaries of what that is going to be for themselves. And they're tonally and stylistically different films, but I think they're both really effective at that.

And they're, but they're both, like, the drama comes from them trying to understand where those boundaries are. And, like, figuring that out. They're not meant to be what, like, paragon's of this lifestyle. This is simply people learning something. Yeah, they're figuring it out, and they're figuring out how do I accommodate this into the life I already have, whether it's with, you know, the husband and children I have in my position.

as a CEO or just Tony B, yeah. Life with my parents or, you know, how my day-to-day existence? Like, how does this all fit in, how does this all fit together? Yeah. You're saying it's a step forward from in most older movies.

It would be a joke about someone walks into the wrong room. And there's someone just kind of swinging a short whip with a biker cap on. And that's the end. And you just know. That person. Oh, wow. I have not listened to your eggs at the Eden episode yet, but I have to, I got to get into that one.

That is a, that is, what's a, funny about that is that its portrayal of Kink communities is like the least of the problems in the movie. Although I mean like Jewel smuggling or whatever. Gary Marshall spent a lot of time in dungeons doing research on. The funny thing about that movie is like the problem

is not that what is showing is offensive. The problem is that what they're showing as kink is so tame. It's so funny. Why does it even go to an island for this? They're like, let's look at some. There's the showroom sequence. They're going through different kinky situations you can do and they're like love in an elevator

ooh with a stranger. Living it up on going down it's just like oh okay well this is this is the most this is the most like like you know 2% milk 1% milk version of it I'm going to sit on you with my bare bottom

I mean yeah I am I am not part of the BDSM community but even I could tell that the 50 Shades movies were some bullshit you know Yeah. I mean, the most real moment in any of the 50 Shades movies is the moment where Dakota Johnson is in the middle of getting dressed and they have an argument. And I was like, this feels real.

This is the kind of thing that happens. Human behavior. Yes, sometimes you have an argument in the middle of getting dressed, but there's nothing sexy about it. Elliot, do you have a recommendation? I should have prepared one considering I asked the question. I don't really. I'm going to think about one. That's going to be my homework assignment.

Okay. Go think about what you've done. I've been so deep. Yeah, exactly. I've been so deep in Czech comedies lately that I haven't been going outside of that world too much. That's a two-circle Venn diagram, I'm pretty sure. I think so.

But what was Milos Foreman? One of his first American movies was like... Taking Off? Taking Off, yeah. I don't know if there's anybody queer in that. I haven't seen it. I don't know that there is, but I mean, taking off is a great movie at the very least about people trying to understand other people,

you know? So those parents are looking for their, they're looking for their daughter and their daughters in kind of like youth culture. But I don't remember there being any anyone queer in it. But I'll watch it again. It's a good movie. And I'm sure that now that I think about it, the movies I've been watching,

I'm sure probably have gay jokes in them that I just didn't notice because, you know, I'm not sure. Yeah, I mean, the thing about like those early, late 60s, early 70s, like the code was gone. You could suddenly do characters like that. But since most of those movies were being made by like straight dudes, it was like, well, let's either, It's either going to be comic relief or a killer, you know.

But look at how progressive we are by having this, you know, this homo inclusion, you know. What we put you in the movie? You're the bad guy or we laugh at you. We acknowledge your existence. What do you want? What else could we do? Come on. Could I be the star of the movie?

Of a movie? I'll have to think of something. I'll have to expand what I've been watching. because it's like the listeners to the past few episodes to the show they're like

let Elliot watch some other stuff so you stop recommending just check comedies from the same director over and over again well this has been a really fun and very

I think what an eye-opening conversation I feel like we're all going to walk away we've already learned something today we've shared Alonso it's always such a joy

to have you to have you on the show we'll have to have you back again soon. But thank you for... Have for... Blug his book one last time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please, yes. My book, Hollywood Pride that I wrote for Running Press and Turner Classic movies. It's available everywhere. It is a book, book, an e-book, and an audiobook.

So look for them where you find those things. Ask your library to snag a copy if they haven't already. And it's got tons and tons of ideas of films that you might want to check out. But always a pleasure to be here, guys. I'm thrilled when you have me back,

and this was a great chat. Who reads the audiobook? Me! Oh. I tried to get Morgan Freeman and he wouldn't return my cars. I would so much rather hear you read it, Alonzo, than anybody else.

Oh, stop. But thank you so much everybody for listening. This has been the Flop House podcast, a mini episode. We'll be back next week with a movie episode, but it won't be as interesting. But it'll probably be dumber. It'll be dumber, probably.

Look, we can praise this episode without bearing another. I don't know how to do that. It's the way I was raised. We are a member of the Max Fun Network. There are lots of great Max Fun podcast. Maximum Film is a Max Fun podcast. Yes, it is.

And where you can hear more of our friend Alonso. Our show is produced by Alex Smith. You may know him better as Howl Doughty. And if you don't know him as Howl Doughty, take a look. Listen to his music. Listen to his podcast. He's hilarious. He's a great guy.

He does great work for us. And he does great work on his own. Otherwise, if you happened to find yourself in a situation, where you could leave a positive review for us on the podcast listener of your choice, why not do so? Five stars. Why not be generous?

Give us five stars. If six is an option, give us six. Why be stingy with stars? Come on. We have so, you're saving them up. You can't take them with you. There's an infinite supply. That's true.

Look into the sky. It's filled with them. Just grab five from a slown on your computer. Yeah, be like the kid in that Idle of Calvino's story that Pixar made a short out of and just pluck some stars. out and, you know, bring them home with you. Everyone, is there anything else I've forgotten, Dan? No, you did.

Great. Okay. So thank you so much for listening. Again, we'll be back next week. And I guess I'll end with my normal catchphrase that I end every episode with. Keep flopping it up, floppos. Oh, man, classic. And I've been Stuart Wellington.

I've been Dan McCoy. And we've been joined by Alonzo Durrale. Maximum Fun A worker-owned network Of artists' owned shows Supported directly By you