The Florida Roundup - Black history standards; beach access; housing kids in nursing homes 

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

Hosts and panelists discuss Florida’s new Black history standards, challenges to public beach access and the decade-long legal battle over housing kids in Florida's nursing homes.

Welcome to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. And I'm Matthew Petty in Tampa. The Florida Board of Education last week approved a new set of social studies standards for how black history should be taught in public schools. These guidelines sparked sharp criticism in the following days from a broad range of voices, from educators and parents to state lawmakers and community leaders throughout the state. Much of the backlash centers around instruction for teaching middle school students about the slave trade. This section asks teachers to discuss the various jobs that enslaved people were forced to do

and includes instruction on how enslaved people, quote, develop skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit. Congressman Byron Donalds, who's the only black Republican member of Florida's congressional delegation, also weighed in. On Wednesday, he shared the following tweet, quote, The new African-American standards in Florida are good, robust and accurate. That being said, the attempts to feature the personal benefits of slavery is wrong and needs to be adjusted. That obviously wasn't the goal. And I have faith that the Florida Department

of Education will correct this. Meanwhile, teachers are preparing to return to the classroom with questions around how to provide accurate historical information. We've always found ways through ingenuity and being innovative to kind of circumvent some things and we kind of hold it intact and also protect our teachers. That's Brian Knowles. He oversees African, African American, Latino, Holocaust and Social Studies at the Palm Beach County School District and he spoke with WLRN's Wilkin Brutus earlier this week. Wilkin will be joining us in a moment but first we did invite State Education Commissioner Manny Diaz Jr. to join us, but we did not receive a direct response to that request, and that invitation still stands. Meanwhile, the Florida Department of Education is standing behind the new standards and will

work to implement them swiftly. In a statement emailed to us by the Department of Education, Dr. William Allen and Dr. Francis Presley Rice, members of Florida's African American History Standards Workgroup, defended the standards and hit back at critics. They said it was, quote, disappointing but nevertheless unsurprising that critics would reduce months of work to create Florida's first ever standalone strand of African American History standards to a few isolated expressions without context. Still, some are looking for educational alternatives to supplement what might be lacking in the curriculum, such as faith in Florida. The statewide coalition of faith leaders is offering a free African American history toolkit to houses of worship that want to teach black history. Reverend Richard Dames of Hopewell Missionary Baptist Church in Boynton Beach has already signed up for the program. What we're going to do, due to the fact that our Sunday school is our teaching hour, we're going to use our Sunday school period to teach

this curriculum. And the Reverend spoke with Danielle Pryor, reporter for WMFE in Orlando. Well, Danielle joins us now along with Wilkin. Thank you both for coming on the program today. Thank you. Thanks for having us. And we want to hear from you. Are you an educator or parent? How do you feel about the state's new rules on teaching black history?

Give us a call. The number is 305-995-1800. That's 305-995-1800. You can also send us a tweet. We're at Florida Roundup. Danielle, I want to start with you. Last week, the State Board of Education met. They approved the new standards. You were there. What can you tell us about that meeting? Well, Matt, there were dozens of folks that were there from teachers and parents and kids to even Moms for Liberty members. So a wide range. And there were folks that were for and against the standards. Those who were against the standards took issue with two of them, a middle school standard, which Danny already talked about,

which implied that people somehow derived benefit from slavery, and then a middle school standard, which Danny already talked about, which implied that people somehow derived benefit from slavery, and then a high school standard that would teach kids that events like the Ocoee Massacre was perpetrated both, quote, against and by African Americans. Right. And what do we know about how those standards were created? Who had input? What was that process like? So they were crafted by a standards work group that you referred to earlier in the show, which was 13 members. The members were volunteers. They weren't paid for their work and they don't work for the state. And most of them are actually current or former teachers or, you know, involved in education like college professors. Three of them are actually from the Central Florida area where I am right now.

And there was a very good mix of Black, white, and Latino folks in the work group. And their goal was really just to see if the current social studies standards could align with the Stop Woke Act. And in a statement released by Dr. William Allen, who's one of the more talkative members of the work group earlier this week, he said that the group used a, quote, methodical process to put the standards together. They started in February. They ended in May. But there's not much known about just where the language, the controversial language, actually comes from. Allen denied that he was the author of that language, and we put in a request to the Florida Department of Education just to try to figure out where that wording comes from.

So there's been outcry from parents, educators. You've done a lot of reporting around this, Danielle, and lawmakers. And a fraternity announced as well that it's moving its 2025 convention from Florida. What did they say about the move? Why is it significant? Yeah, so Alpha Phi Alpha is actually our country's oldest Black fraternity, and they pulled their 2025 convention out of Orlando this week. And they said it was, due to Governor Ron DeSantis' harmful, racist, and insensitive policies against the Black community. violences harmful racist and insensitive policies against the black community they mentioned the standards as well as quote a barrage of harmful and discriminatory policies on protests voting rights education diversity equity and inclusion um so many reasons actually for pulling out that

they mentioned in their statement and they are not alone we've had several conventions that have been canceled over the last few weeks here in the Central Florida area. A Con of Thrones conference, the Association of Perioperative Registered Nurses, the American Educational Research Association, the National Society of Black Engineers, and AnitaB.org have all pulled events from Central Florida citing laws like Stop Woke and also the parental rights and education law. We just heard, Danielle, you were talking about Dr. William Allen, one of the more talkative members of that group. Let's just take a listen to a little bit of sound. We have some sound from Dr. Allen talking to NPR this week. Let's listen to that. I think the sentence explains itself. Its grammar is certainly perfectly clear. One refers to the fact that those who were held in slavery possessed skills, whether they developed them before being held in slavery, while being held in slavery, or subsequently to being held in slavery, from which they benefited when they applied themselves in the exertion of those skills. when they applied themselves in the exertion of those skills.

That's not a statement that is at all controversial. The facts sustain it. The testimonies of the people who lived the history sustain it. Wilkin Brutus with WLRN want to bring you into this conversation now. The pushback against these new standards is mostly focused on two parts. One part suggesting, as a clip we just heard said, that enslaved people benefited somehow from their forced labor. And another part that talks about, quote, violence perpetrated against and by African-Americans in some really notable episodes of racial violence here in the state of Florida, too. And, well, can you talk to a teacher from the Palm Beach County School District about this?

What was their response to that? Hey, Danny, thanks for having me on. You guys actually played a clip of Brian Knowles earlier. He actually leads a major social studies department for the school district of Palm Beach County. major social studies department for the school district of Palm Beach County. He's a Black educator who has advocated for teaching African American and African history with proper narrative framing. He called parts of the state's curriculum a blatant distortion, quote, distortion of Black history because the language and the guidelines characterizes brutal events such as the 1920 Okoye Massacre in Florida, the 1921 Tulsa Massacre in Oklahoma, and other racist terrorist attacks on black American communities as race riots, placing equal blame on both sides. He called the language egregious and dangerously misleading.

And he essentially said that the curriculum line that says, you know, violence perpetuated against and by African Americans essentially gives the white perpetrators at the time plausible deniability and an escape from blame. And Brian Knowles, the educator you spoke to, did say that there is some wiggle room in these new standards. What does he mean by wiggle room when it comes to how this is actually taught? Yeah, essentially he's talking about that particular type of narrative framing, that teachers should have the ability to teach accurate facts to reduce the fears of revisionism.

If you recall that 1921 Tulsa race massacre example that I gave you, it was once described as the Tulsa Riot. And that language has been changed to accurately portray not black people as perpetual victims, but victims of this type of violence. And that that affluent majority black Greenwood district in Tulsa was referred to as the black Wall Street. And so Knowles basically says that teachers would still be able to teach about the social, psychological, and economic impact this type of violence has had on black Americans. So despite the guidelines from the state, there's still some wiggle room to add the necessary context for all students to learn about the history. You can call us at 305-995-1800. I want to go to the phones now.

We have Jim calling from Boca. Jim, thanks for calling. You're on the Florida Roundup. Yes, good afternoon. I just want to call and voice my very strong support of our great governor desantis the florida school board uh for putting out guidelines that accurately reflect the history and not the propaganda of the fascist left like yourself and the florida teachers union and uh this fellow in palm beach county has this teacher who needs to lose his job for what he's doing. Propaganda that there's a lot of hate against this country, that this is a racist country.

Okay, Jim, we hear you. Danny, can I respond to that? Please go ahead, Wilkin. Absolutely. So the emails that, Brian knows that the emails are flooding right now. He said most educators will have an issue with the framing of the narrative in the state's curriculum that the language implies enslaved Africans personally benefited and learn specific skills during chattel slavery, such as blacksmithing, harvesting, sailing and irrigation techniques. But that scholarly research has shown that many enslaved Africans were skilled laborers from different regions in West Africa prior to being forced to use those skills in the transatlantic slave trade. And slavers actually sought out specific

African skills. The small West African countries like Benin and Togo who are literally known for blacksmithing. Now, Knowles told me not to put those facts in the forefront of teaching Rob's black people who they about their their history. And it impacts how black students see themselves and their ancestors and how all students view black American contributions to the regional makeup of the United States. And so the sort of ad hominem attacks about fascism doesn't really match what Knowles and a lot of black teachers are actually saying here. It's about presenting. And I think something to consider is that even if. You one would say enslaved Africans benefited in some kind of way from this.

That was one generation when they got freedom, and then all the other previous generations were not necessarily benefiting from that because they were still enslaved, right? Yeah. I want to bring Danielle back into this conversation. Hey. Danielle, these new standards, they are part of a larger effort to reshape

Florida's public education system. Can you give us a little more context here? Yeah. So, you know, in 2022, we know that Stop Woke Act passed and it really limited what teachers can teach and students can learn in terms of race. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable, basically, we can't talk about it in Florida classrooms. And then in January this year, Governor DeSantis banned just a pilot of an AP African American history course. A month ago, a summer institute that would have taught public high school teachers how to teach African American history was postponed without any kind of explanation. And then throughout the year, we've seen the state education department really reject social studies textbooks categorically if

they bring up anything related to George Floyd or taking a knee or anything like that. And that's all while the parental rights and education law or don't say gay is being expanded. And now, you know, starting the school year, teachers really won't be able to talk about gender identity or sexuality in any of the grades. So we're seeing a lot of kind of sweeping changes take place in the background. Indeed. We've got some comments coming in as well. Jennifer Parent in Monroe County writes, why are you so afraid to tell students the truth about history? Understanding how history works gives all of us a way to look at the future clear-eyed and optimistic. Hiding the truth only serves white supremacy and patriarchy. And then Leslie of Palm Beach, a parent rather in Palm Beach County,

writes, will teachers who say slavery was not beneficial be fired? Danielle, I wonder, you talk to teachers. I mean, are there concerns about how this rule might be, all of these new standards might be implemented or what it means for teachers? Yeah, absolutely. They're very concerned. You know, the Florida Department of Education put out a memo this week saying that these standards will be enforced and quote, we're not turning our backs on the great work of the African American History Task Force. But I would be more concerned if I was a teacher right now with the implications of the parental rights and education law. That's the law, Matt, that there's new policies in place where if

you talk about someone's, you know, if you speak to a child using their preferred pronouns or you let them use a bathroom that aligns with their gender identity, you can get fired and you can lose your license. So that one, I think, is a bit more threatening right now. And we'll have to see with these standards just how they're enforced. Indeed. Let's get a call in from Donnell in Jacksonville. Donnell, you're on the air. Hey, thank you for having me. Can you hear me? Yeah, go for it. It goes against the same law that the governor put in place to keep other students from feeling less than, you know, other students by the way history is taught. Because if you're looking at them saying slaves benefited from the skills they were taught, you're basically telling black children that the only way you got skills when you were brought to America was through the white slave owners.

And that's the way you were able to have a life and do stuff. So basically, you're teaching us that we were inferior to the white people that brought us over in slavedom. I appreciate your call there, Donnell. Wilkin, what about that? I mean, from the folks that you've talked to, is there some kind of thoughts about how this meshes in with the other laws that are already in place in Florida? Yeah, absolutely. with the other laws that are already in place in Florida? Yeah, absolutely. And to echo the caller's complaint,

that's sort of the framework that Knowles was trying to convey during our interview earlier this week, is that educators feel that they need the room to actually teach accurate facts and framing to reduce these sort of fears of revisionism. If you recall, the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, for example, was once described as the Tulsa Riot. And that language has been changed to accurately portray not Black people as perpetual victims, but victims

of this type of violence. And so this particular community was quite affluent. Folks had already gathered the types of skills to build their own communities. And so Nose says teachers will still be able to teach about the social, psychological, and economic impact that this type of violence has had on Black Americans, but that enslaved Africans prior to being enslaved had the necessary skills prior to coming to the United States. And that's the type of framing that he wants to make sure that it's clear. 305-995-1800. We want to go to the phones again. We have Tony calling from St. Pete.

Tony, thanks for calling. You're on. Yes, I'd like to add to this. Governor DeSantis has a bachelor's degree from Yale in history. Before he got a law degree, Yale is one of the best history institutions in the country. Who knows better?

It's just a power trip. In fact, it's just a power trip for him. So thank you for the call, Tony, saying this is all just a power trip for him. So thank you. Thank you for the call, Tony, saying this is all just a power trip from the governor. Danielle, just a few more seconds here. I mean, what's the fallout of this? I mean, we have Republicans even coming out against this. Senator Tim Scott running for president came out against the Republican. Yeah, there's a lot of fallout. I mean,

Vice President Kamala Harris came here last week, for example, special trip just to address these standards. And she called them gaslighting. And she said something really important I think we should keep in mind that, quote, adults know what slavery really involved and involve rape and torture and it involved taking a baby from their mother. So important to remember the truth and the facts of this history. Also, a lot of pushback against Dr. William Allen, who put a whole list of people on Twitter who he claims benefited from slavery. Historical scholars have looked at the list and said only half. Sorry to cut you off, Danielle.

We've got to go to break. We've been talking with Danielle Prier from WMFE and WLRN's Wilkin Brutus. Thank you both for joining us. Coming up in a few seconds, how public access to Florida's beaches is under threat. We'll be right back. Mayo Clinic, working to see the unseeable by using advanced imaging technology to look deeper into the human body and seeking out details that might otherwise go unnoticed with the goal of more accurate diagnoses and treatments. When you are looking for answers, options, and hope, you know where to go.

More at mayoclinic.org slash Florida. where to go. More at mayoclinic.org slash Florida. One Jerome Powell and other Grateful Dead fans, I'm sure, were sad to hear that Dead & Company are on its final tour. This is just like a microcosm of a little society where money's generated. People have similar beliefs of the music, whatever the case is, but they conglomerate to sell their wares, share their times, and move on. I'm Kai Risdahl inside the Deadhead Economy. Next time on Marketplace. Tonight at 6, here on WJCT News 89.9. Today in music history from Anthology on 89.9 HD3. July 28, 2020, the British music magazine Q publishes its last issue, ending a 34-year run, and I will miss it. Today in music history is sponsored by Florida Eye Specialist. Now introducing the

cataract surgery lens that can be customized to your lifestyle after surgery. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Matthew Petty in Tampa. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. Florida's beaches are by definition open to the public, according to the state constitution. But that doesn't always mean that you can plop your towel on just any piece of sand. After a controversial state law was passed in 2018, private property owners are increasingly posting no trespassing signs and calling the police when they say beachgoers are illegally entering their property. This has led to years of legal battles

in some parts of the Florida Panhandle as residents say they're being cut off from a public resource. It's not just the panhandle. Residents of Sarasota and other parts of the state have been facing the same issues. Unfortunately, over the last especially two years, we've been seeing it pop up everywhere along the coast. We're just seeing more and more, especially as new homeowners come into the state, we're seeing a lot of the turnover of people who've always maintained access, let the public use it, and now just issues are starting to arise much more frequent. That's Evan Orellana with Surf Rider Foundation, a national nonprofit advocacy group with a mission to preserve beach accessibility.

Evan oversees their Florida chapter, and I spoke with him earlier this week. And I want to say the stakes of this issue are sky high in a state like Florida, where many consider beaches a birthright. About 60 percent of the state coastline is privately owned, just for a factoid. Joining us now to talk about public access to beaches during a historic heat wave is Samantha Hope Herring. She's the president of Florida Beaches for All, an advocacy group in the Florida Panhandle. And also joining us is Isaac Eager, who's written extensively on this topic for Sarasota Magazine. Samantha, Isaac, thanks for coming on. Thank you for having us. Samantha, Isaac, thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having us. Thanks for having me. Of course, of course. And we do want to hear from callers on this. You can call us at 305-995-1800. Has beach access been an issue in your community? Can you go to the beach that you've been going to for years? Let us know. Samantha, let's start with you on

this conversation. Walton County in the Panhandle has become the epicenter of these battles for years now. Give us a little bit of the lay of the land on how public access to beaches has been impacted. Absolutely. Many people are aware that the Panhandle has sort of been the ground zero, if you will, for the issues going on regarding public beach use. And for all practical purposes, you know, folks realize the use of public beaches either by a deed or a doctrine called customary use, quiet title, or any other legal means. That's generally how people have had access to our beaches in Florida. And in Walton County, the public utilized the beach through customary use, which is something that's been around for all of time, and it was essentially what the name says, customary use of that beach.

And people have been using the beach and then, so they have the right to use that beach essentially. Right. For all the time. It's a doctrine, a legal doctrine that allows them not to own the beach, but, but to have customary use of it, you know, for sunbathing, swimming, you know, the things that you traditionally would do on a beach. And so that's how people in Walton County and other areas have used the beaches in Florida for most all the time. Recently, there was an initiative, it was in 2018, to have some sort of a change regarding customary use.

Our county had initiated the effort and worked together with folks in the county across the coast as well as in the community itself and created an ordinance for customary use. Shortly thereafter, there was a bill. It was House Bill 631 that went through our legislature. A lot of people call it the Huckabee Law. Mike Huckabee owned a piece of property at the time. He no longer owns the property in Walton County. Owned a piece of property and wanted to have a private beach available to him. And so he filed a bill challenging customary use, basically,

and creating a bunch of hurdles and hoops that folks would have to jump through at the county level. And just to catch up our listeners on where this kind of stood, the law was passed. The Walton County Commission filed a lawsuit against over a thousand property owners who claimed essentially the beaches in front of their properties were entirely private. That lawsuit was settled two months ago in May, and it shaved off about a third of beaches in Walton County, as I understand it, as private, where the public cannot set up a towel anymore, at least on the dry sand. Samantha, was that settlement okay with you and your group?

Absolutely not. I mean, the settlement, the litigation that ensued after that law 631 was passed, we had two different efforts to repeal that bill because many people don't know this, but Walton County was the only county that had been not grandfathered in. You had to have an ordinance in order to realize customer use in your county. Blount County had one. We were not grandfathered in. So that's how that litigation you just mentioned ensued. At that point, our organization, Florida Beaches for All, was one of the interveners in that litigation. And we had to let that play out in order to see what was going to happen. And we're not happy at all with it. In fact, it essentially does exactly what we believed

it would do. It basically created privatization in places that traditionally had had customary use in place. And that, of course, now has set precedent in other areas. And it's really, it's a real big problem for advocates who believe that Florida beaches are for all people, and everyone should have, you know, the right to use them as our Constitution clearly intended. So we definitely know that there's a lot of work ahead. And we plan to challenge anyone trying to privatize beaches in Florida. And Samantha, just so our listeners get an understanding, what does this mean practically for residents of Walton County? Are there beaches where people have been going

or they can no longer go? What it means is if you understand that there's beach access points that are been strategically um acquired in different in all of our counties walton county included um and what it means is basically you know the land that if you will it's a strip of land that is a beach access point that people um have to stay on so if it's a let's say a five foot you know wide strip of land that is you know uh 20 feet long straight to the water um a five foot, you know, wide strip of land that is, you know, 20 feet long straight to the water, that is essentially, you know, where folks have to stay if they're not in one

of these quote unquote zones that have been identified in this settlement. Now, that's a very, again, it's a lot of legal wranglings. And you can imagine that local law enforcement trying to take an order and determine with maps and, you know, what is one of the zones that they've identified and what isn't, it's going to be a very complex mess because, again, customary use had been in place for all the time. So these things are where we are with the litigation, but it's absolutely not the end of this fight. It's essentially we've lost the battle in a war for private beaches, you know, public beaches being, you know, coming under attack to be privatized. So we've got a lot of organizing and work to do for people who believe

that our beaches belong to the people of Florida and the people who come here to, of course, to the people of Florida and the people who come here to, of course, enjoy our tourism and need access to those beaches and use of those beaches. So, you know, we've definitely got our work cut out for us. Today it means a lot of confusion, a lot of ambiguity in the law. And so one of the things we're setting out to do now is create a database that is going to allow us to identify how the public has access and use of beaches across the state so we can begin the process of protecting and preserving locally the public beaches and the public use of those beaches. Right. And we want to hear from you as well. We're speaking with Samantha Hope Herring, president of Florida Beaches for All. And we're talking about the privatization of beaches.

I want to hear if you've kind of experienced some of that. Is there a beach you've maybe been going to where you've suddenly seen a no trespassing sign posted? 305-995-1800 is the number to call. You can also send us a tweet. We're at Florida Roundup or an X, I guess it might be called now. Reach out to us anyway. We want to bring in Isaac Eager to the conversation. He's written about this topic for Sarasota Magazine.

Isaac, so thinking about your reporting here, Sarasota homeowners have been claiming their beaches are private after the passage of that state law in 2018. In many cases, that's after people have been using those beaches for years. So talk us through this. How does this typically play out? state law in 2018 in many cases that's after people have been using those beaches for years so talk us through this how does this typically play out isaac well it plays out because uh uh can you hear me hello yeah go for it i'm on okay uh we have two very bad laws is what it comes down to uh both the customary use doctrine and the mean high water line, which determines the line between public and private property, are purposely inscrutable. You cannot have anyone come to the

beach and point and say where that is. And what I found in my reporting frequently was that the private property owners would either lie to the people or have actual wrong surveys. The surveys done, other private surveys were done that showed that sometimes there was a discrepancy of like 11 to 10 feet. And so what you have are bad laws that favor private property owners. bad laws that favor private property owners. And so long as these two laws are in place, private property owners will continue to take more and more property from the public. Wow. Now, people have actually been arrested for going to beaches that they've been using for years. One woman you talked to had photos showing her at that same beach as a child 50 years earlier. How have those cases panned out

well a lot of it has to do with uh people's willingness to go through the courts uh there are some pending cases going on right now uh but none of it looks particularly favorable what we do need to have happen is more people willing to challenge the law with their bodies, sitting on the beach and get arrested, and then go through the court system and see what happens. Because what did happen with the woman that I wrote about was her attorney, her public defender, was willing to take it to court. But at the last minute, the state attorney's office dropped the case so that we couldn't figure out legally where things stood. So right now what we have are law enforcement and judicial systems that don't actually want to see the law through and would rather rule through this inscrutability that favors private property owners. Let's go to the phones now. Before we do, let's just take a call in here,

and I'll come back to you if I could. But Alex in Orlando. Alex, you're on the air. Hey, yeah. I'm a long-time Orlando native, and what I really want to ask is, is this loss of our public beaches, something Florida's been known for for years, our beautiful public beaches, is this symptomatic of what we see a lot of things in the state of Florida,

Florida residents, Florida natives being priced out and being forced out by people coming here from elsewhere? That's really how it feels, and I'm curious what the guests have to say. Thanks for that question, Alex. Samantha, what about that? Well, I can tell you that we had a Mason-Dixon poll done in 2018, and it was very clear that over 80% of the Floridians who participated in that believed that Florida beaches were for everyone and that they should be available and be public.

Those beaches should be public. So we know there's overwhelming support for folks who are here. I think what your caller brought up is that there is an effort underway and a lot of issues and policies to politicize some of the, you know, whatever the issue might be, just about any issue you can think of. But one of the issues that we know absolutely is that public beaches and public beach use is a nonpartisan issue. It's a Floridian issue. And people who live, work, and visit Florida want to comfortably be able to go to the beach with their families. People who live in communities,

regardless of where you are, if you're in a coastal community or not. They want to protect and preserve those beaches for their use and enjoyment. And so we have a responsibility as Floridians to get to organize, to come together. And, you know, I was listening to Isaac talk about the litigation. One of the challenges we have that we've got to realize is that litigation is expensive. We need to be using our resources to protect and preserve our beautiful beaches. That's something we agree on. And so we've got to get public policy that pushes that instead of litigating that out.

You're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. I want to go to the phones. We have Matthew calling from Fort Lauderdale. Matthew, thanks for calling. You're on. Yes, I have two questions. So these private properties, these private beach owners, how do we pay? Who pays for when we have beach erosion in these cases? Who pays for the beach erosion? Is it the taxpayers or is it the private owners? And my second question,

I know it was said that Mike Huckabee proposed this law back in 2018, if I recollect what you were saying. And he's no longer the owner, but he's one of these wannabes, Christians, talk about God this and God that. And he's the one that actually tried to push this law or put this law in place. Thank you for the call, Matthew. Isaac, I want to go with you for the first part of that question, especially. I mean, some of these legal issues,

it's murky, right? I mean, there's a line on the sand that no one can quite point to. This is the part that's private. This is the part that's public. Beach renourishments happen. Who does pay for that? And how do we know where that line stands when sand is trucked into a beach? Well if a beach is renourished it's done through taxpayer dollars it's far too expensive for private property owners to renourish them and in fact private property owners do not want their beaches renourished we saw this in walton county we've seen this in sarasota because it would take away some of their uh claim to private property once the beach, once more sand is dumped on the beach. Because if those tax dollars are used,

then it would have to benefit the public in some way, essentially. Precisely. But this is even without beach renourishment, these houses are protected with public funds through flood insurance. I mean, we are already paying for these beaches. So it's not that we don't need beach renourishment to make some sort of public claim on them. All Florida taxpayers are already paying for these beaches. And we only have a short time to go, Samantha. But just last thoughts. What are the stakes of this?

I mean, this is obviously a big issue. Florida is known for its beaches. Some people are losing access to beaches. Florida is defined by our beautiful beaches, and we absolutely know Floridians. Bringing people together to protect and preserve those beaches is our mission as Floridians. We need to take the politics out of it and put the people into it because that's what our beaches are about. Florida Beaches for All will be working on a campaign, a public campaign of doing just that. And so we invite folks to get involved.

If you want to get involved in that, just go to our website, Florida Beaches for All. want to get involved in that, just go to our website, Florida Beaches for All, and in the next few weeks we'll be launching a pretty big effort to move forward in organizing the state. So we know together that's how we are going to strengthen the public beaches use of where we are today. Through activism and education and whatnot. Thank you so much. We've been speaking with Isaac Eager, associate editor of Sarasota Magazine,

and also Samantha Hope Herring, president of Florida Beaches for All. Thank you both for joining us. And after the break, the latest in a legal battle over how Florida treats medically fragile children. Rapper Lil' Kim has been a fashion innovator for years, and yet she still doesn't get her due,

including from the Council of Fashion Designers of America. You have Karl Lagerfeld, McQueen, Marc Jacobs speaking it out that this person has influenced my collections. And I hate that it has to be in the hands of the CFDA, but who deserves it more? Why Lil' Kim is a style icon. Next time on It's Been a Minute from NPR. Tomorrow at noon on WJCT News 89.9.

When Thomas Green went in for surgery to relieve pain in his legs, he was expecting it to be covered by his insurance. But a mix-up by the provider left him and his wife with a big bill. My initial response was, this is impossible. So something's wrong. I'm Juana Summers. The fight to fix those charges on All Things Considered from NPR News.

Starting at 4 on WJCT News 89.9. On the next Fresh Air, the challenge, exhilaration and heartbreak of operating on the brains of children. Pediatric neurosurgeon Jay Wellens talks about struggling to save kids suffering from illness and injury and helping their parents cope with the trauma of seeing their children in mortal danger. Wellens' memoir is out in paperback. Join us today at one on WJCT News 89.9. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. And I'm Matthew Petty in Tampa. A federal judge has ordered the state of Florida to change the way it gives health care to children with severe disabilities. That's after the federal

government has for more than a decade challenged the state's practice of placing children with disabilities in restrictive institutions like nursing homes. The state says this is an intrusion into state affairs by the federal government and that the order will be impossible to comply with. by the federal government and that the order will be impossible to comply with. It's a complex and troubling story of how Medicaid is handled in Florida, federal law about the health care standards, and even the ongoing nursing shortage. Well, joining us now to talk about all of this is Carol Marvin Miller. She is the Miami Herald's Deputy Investigations Editor,

and she's followed this issue for more than a decade. Carol, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. You can join the conversation too as well if you've been following along with the story, maybe have some personal experience with it. 305-995-1800 is the number to call. With your questions and comments, you can also send us a tweet. We're at Florida Roundup. Carol, the details of this federal court case stretch back over a decade. When did this issue of children with very fragile health conditions being housed in nursing homes and very restrictive institutions come about? Around 2012, two advocates for

Floridians with disabilities filed lawsuits arguing that state health administrators were violating the civil rights of medically fragile children by essentially steering them into nursing homes for their care. Those suits ultimately were unsuccessful as a federal judge, Williams-Lock, dismissed them. But the U.S. Justice Department Civil Rights Division adopted the litigations, and that case was allowed to proceed before, I would say, three different judges, eventually ending up before Judge Donald Middlebrooks, who presided over it at a bench trial in May. marks from the bench. And in recent orders, Middlebrooks was extremely critical of the parties for allowing the dispute to fester for more than a decade, even as some of the original named plaintiffs died. In recent days, he's accused the state of deliberately obstructing reform, quote, for obstruction's sake. So it sounds like things have actually started to move on this case. Would that be a fair assumption? I mean, you've been reporting on this issue for years. Does it seem

like there is some change afoot for these kids? Not really. The number of children who have essentially been forced to live in institutions has declined since the lawsuit's inception from upwards of 300 to the 140 kids living in nursing homes now. But the conditions that exist that leave some parents with little choice, but to institutionalize their children remain the same, the woefully inadequate reimbursement rate for private duty nursing under Medicare being chief among them. Can you describe for us, Carol, the actual conditions in these institutions for these kids? Yeah, going back over the last decade, experts for the Justice Department and state health records themselves have described a fairly shocking lack of developmentally appropriate and enriching activities for the youngsters who live

in these institutions. Experts who have toured the three nursing homes that remain, that house medically complex kids, say they spend most of their time either lying in cribs or sitting in wheelchairs in hallways. Advocates claim the youngsters get maybe 30 minutes of educational activities each day, and if they're lucky, they can watch movies or TV. Some advocates have compared institutionalized children to potted plants. According to a report filed in federal court, when one of the Justice Department's experts toured a nursing home, one of the kids literally bolted from his enclosure and tried to scoot away. Years ago, a former secretary for the State Agency for Healthcare Administration told reporters that kids from nursing homes were taken on field trips and allowed to go horseback riding.

But I've never seen a record confirming that claim, and most children's advocates thought that remark was laughable. that remark was laughable. Carol, some families that need help for the care of their children say they've been left with no other choice but to send their kids to nursing homes hundreds of miles away from their homes. Can you help us understand, like, what leads up to parents making this really, really tough decision to do something like that? really tough decision to do something like that? Well, according to Judge Middlebrook's order, it is extremely difficult to access 24-hour in-home nursing care in Florida,

even when a child's pediatrician or specialist writes a prescription for it. Among other things, that's because the reimbursement rate for private duty nurses under Medicaid, the insurer of last resort for impoverished and disabled Floridians, is so low that Medicaid recipients can't compete with folks who have private insurance. For children in Medicaid managed care plans, state law already requires the plans to ensure children receive 100% of the nursing hours that are ordered. But ACA, the Agency for Healthcare Administration, has never enforced that provision. So the managed care plans basically ignore it. And lawyers with the state say that this court order that came down after the trial would be, quote unquote, impossible to comply with to provide these children with

adequate health care outside these institutions as per that court order. Why does the state say that it would be impossible to comply with this? Well, I think they are conflating, and some would say intentionally conflating, the nursing shortage that is fairly unique to Medicaid, to health care as a whole. But that just isn't true. And other states do not have severe shortages like Florida does. states do not have severe shortages like Florida does. In his orders, Judge Middlebrooks has argued that Florida artificially created a nursing shortage by having such a low reimbursement rate and then used the shortage as an excuse to make these kids languish in nursing homes even longer. It's a kind of circular reasoning where the state creates this nursing shortage and then says, look, we can't provide nurses because we have a nursing

shortage. You're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. Carol, as you've reported, Florida often ranks close to last when it comes to funding and care for people with disabilities. And even then, a lot of the progress that has happened has happened only because things have gone to court and judges have forced the state to move the needle in some way. Why has this one particular area been so hard to shift when it comes to public policy in the state? Well, people with disabilities do not enjoy great political clout. Many people who are disabled can't vote, especially people with intellectual disabilities. If you are developmentally disabled, you are intellectually impaired, and you're an adult, as likely as not, you're going to be in a guardianship that would have stripped you of the ability to vote. Disabled people are not politically active. They don't generally go to demonstrations.

And their advocates are busy more interest in helping them. But people who are developmentally disabled are not a very popular advocacy group, and they lack the power to get lawmakers to pass laws that will improve their condition. 305-995-1800, we're talking about medically vulnerable kids who are placed in nursing homes and the legal battle to get them out of there, I guess, with Carol Marvin Miller of the Miami Herald. Let's go to Mark in Jacksonville. Mark, you're on the air. Thank you. At the top of the show, you mentioned the nursing shortage. You just recently kind of corrected yourself. There is no nursing shortage.

You can throw a softball on any street and hit two nurses. That's not a problem. It's a pay shortage. I've worked at one of these institutions for about eight months, and I was making, and this is when I was a brand new nurse. So I was happy to get the job, but I was making $20 an hour. I'm working at a hospital now, three years later, I'm making over 40.

So, you know, why would anybody sign up for that kind of pay voluntarily when they don't have to? It's just, it's just insane. And, you know,

you get, you know, and the CNAs, the nurse assistants, they're paid even worse. I had one quit that went to work for a convenience store and was making more money. So, yeah, it's a money problem. In the last few seconds we have here, Carol, what about that? Well, I've been shaking my head in agreement listening to Mark talk. One of the things that Judge Middlebrooks wants to do is incentivize compliance with his order. And one of the ways that he's trying to get the state to do that is to improve those reimbursement rates. Now, he didn't actually order that. But what he did was in

his order, holding Florida responsible for this, is he said, you know, let me encourage you to raise reimbursement rates. And then he said, and if you don't take my advice, don't come crying to me later and saying we tried, Judge, but we failed. There just has been no political will to spend the money that it would cost to improve reimbursement for private duty nursing for kids like these. Yeah, a lot of challenges there. Yeah, a lot of challenges there We've been speaking with Miami Herald's Carol Marvin Miller About her reporting on a decades-long legal battle To stop institutionalizing medically fragile children Carol, thank you so much for your reporting and your time today

Thank you And that's our program for today The Florida Roundup, produced by WJCT Public Media in Jacksonville And WLRN Public Media in Miami Heather Schatz and Bridget O'Brien are our producers WLRN's Vice President of Radio Heather Schatz and Bridget O'Brien are our producers. WLRN's Vice President of Radio and our Technical Director is Peter Mayers. Engineering help from Doug Peterson,

Charles Michaels, Jackson Harp. Richard Ives answers the phones. Our theme music is provided by Miami jazz guitarist Aaron Leibos at aaronleibos.com. I'm Danny Rivero. And I'm Matthew Petty. Thanks for calling and listening. Have a great weekend everyone