The Florida Roundup - DeSantis removes another state attorney; Immigration Divide, WMFE’s new multimedia series 

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

We talk about Gov. Ron DeSantis' action this week to suspend Orange-Osceola State Attorney Monique Worrell of Florida's 9th Judicial Circuit. Plus, we get a preview of WMFE's new series Central Florida Seen and Heard: Immigration Divide.

Welcome to the Florida Roundup. I'm Matthew Pitti in Tampa. And I'm Danny Rivera in Miami. Orange and Osceola County State Attorney Monique Worrell is out of a job, for now at least. Governor DeSantis suspended Worrell this week. She's a Democrat who was elected in 2020 with 66% of the vote. In a press conference on Wednesday, DeSantis said Worrell hasn't been tough enough on crime and has avoided mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes and drug offenses. Prosecutors have a duty to faithfully enforce the law. One's political agenda cannot trump this solemn duty. Well in her own press conference Worrell said it was done for political purposes and labeled DeSantis as quote a weak dictator and Worrell said she would

fight the suspension and run for re-election next year. And if you know nothing else about me you know that I am a fighter and that I intend to fight. I will not be quiet. I will not sit down. It isn't the first time DeSantis has wielded executive power to remove an elected official whose policies he disagreed with. Worrell is the ninth elected official suspended by DeSantis when they haven't been charged with a crime. That's according to an analysis by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Most of those elected officials removed from office include Hillsborough County, including Hillsborough County State Attorney Andrew Warren, who was removed from office last year,

Hillsborough County State Attorney Andrew Warren, who was removed from office last year, are Democrats. And in this way, DeSantis is using his executive authority in a far more expansive and aggressive manner than previous governors, including his predecessor, Senator Rick, now Senator Rick Scott, who removed only one such elected official during his eight years as governor. Well, joining us for more about what this all means legally and politically, John Kennedy, capital correspondent for Gannett Newspapers in Florida. John, thank you so much for joining us. Good to be here. Thank you. Also joined by Judith Scully, professor of law with Stetson University College of Law. Professor Scully, thank you as well.

Thank you for having me. You can join the conversation too. Send us a tweet. We're at Florida Roundup. John, I want to start with you. State Attorney Worrell's suspension was announced this week, but Governor DeSantis had been critical of the handling of cases. I wonder if you could just talk to us about what led up to the suspension. Just talk to us about what led up to the suspension. Well, there's been a back and forth between DeSantis and Worrell's office going back to the early spring when there was a horrific triple murder a rather lengthy felony record as a juvenile. And then also some some lesser offenses as a as an adult. But basically, the accusation from the DeSantis side is that, you know, this person should not have been on the streets,

that this, you know, now accused murderer should have been locked up for some of these juvenile crimes, presumably, and, you know, not been allowed to be in public. And DeSantis has managed to portray Worrell as being the person who is really guilty of allowing this murderer loose in the state, even though the crimes that were committed by this man when he was a juvenile, Worrell was not even the state attorney at that time. Right. And she's pointed out too, there's been some back and forth between herself and the Orange County Sheriff as well.

So kind of a complex lead into this. Some law enforcement officers, including Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd and Brevard County Sheriff Wayne Ivey praised the governor for suspending Worrell. Former U.S. Representative Val Demings, a Democrat who was also the chief of police in Orlando before her political career, condemned the move. She called it, quote, the latest desperate stunt from a desperate man who wants to be president, shameful and un-American, end quote.

On the other hand, Demings' husband, Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings, also a former law enforcement officer, was far more circumspect in his response. He told the Orlando Sentinel, quote, there has to be a high bar to remove an elected official from office. And I don't know what all the reasons there. So a couple of different kind of contrasting responses there. So what does that tell you about, I guess, the governor's use of executive power and what it means for these folks who are responding to this? Well, I don't think there's too much question that the governor has weaponized his office to take this action. The criticism that's coming from Democrats seems to be rather clear.

that's coming from Democrats seems to be rather clear. Jerry Deming's comments there, I'm not too sure. Yeah, you're right. He is kind of circumspect in his response. I don't know if that points to any real conflict between he and, in this case, his wife over their view of DeSantis's actions. But the governor has really amped up his ability to really go at officials, not over malfeasance or corruption or real signs of criminal wrongdoing, but really over policy. And in this case, Worrell was elected by voters in Orange and Osceola counties as something of a progressive state attorney. And that's something that doesn't sit well with DeSantis. Looking back to a year ago when he suspended Hillsborough County State Attorney Andrew Warren also for taking some action, signing pledges where he was in dispute of the state's new abortion law at that time, saying that he was not going to be prosecuting anyone for abortion related matters.

Right. So some connections there. I just want to read a couple of tweets here. We are inviting your comments on Twitter at Florida Roundup. WNW writes to us, I've been searching the reasons. I hope you all can shed much light on what's going on here. Something doesn't sound right, really. Signing off that tweet, FLNPA. And then here's one from Lisa P. Lloyd.

DeSantis appears to be doubling down on what was already a disturbing pattern of authoritarian undemocratic action that escalated with his re-election and the launch of his campaign. The far-right GOP majority in the legislature gave him an ordinate power to abuse his office. Again, you can send us tweets. We're at Florida Roundup. I want to bring Professor Judith Scully into the conversation now. Judith, thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Thank you. So, you know, putting this in context, previous Governor Rick Scott, as I mentioned earlier, out of the eight years, he only suspended one elected official who was not charged with a crime. And in that case, it was Broward Supervisor of Elections, Brenda Snipes.

She had already submitted a resignation. He suspended her. And here we're taking this is the ninth such suspension under five years of Governor DeSantis. What can we make of this and this use of executive authority in this way? I mean, I think that what we have to take into consideration here is that Governor DeSantis really likes to eliminate any form of dissent, right? And so he views the state's attorneys that he has suspended so far, Andrew Warren, as well as Monique Worrell, as individuals who don't agree with his philosophy about how to manage crime. And it's really the province of the state's attorney's office to determine that. And as was pointed out, state's attorneys are

elected officials. Citizens come out to vote for them, to indicate their support for the way in which these individuals have articulated how they're going to fight crime. And Governor DeSantis has a very clear get tough on crime sort of approach. And he tries to create a scenario where anyone who opposes him or who has a difference of opinion from him should be eliminated. Right. And so with Andrew Warren, you know, he has a conviction review unit or had a conviction review unit that actually questioned um issues related to policing um monique warwell as well uh has indicated that she wants to do and has done not that she wants to do but that she has implemented pre-trial diversion programs which provide an alternative to incarceration um and i think that does not sit well with many, many jurisdictions in Florida have those.

I'm sitting here in Miami. We have one. We've had one for decades at this point. Absolutely. But it's not just about pretrial diversion. It's also about what do those pretrial diversion programs do and for whom? And also, how do we hold police accountable? programs do and for whom, and also how do we hold police accountable. And I think that state's attorney Worrell has been very clear about her desire to make

sure that the law applies to everyone, including police officers. And she has held police officers accountable as well. She has prosecuted and placed and received convictions against a police officer in Orlando that had previously been named officer of the year. And I don't think that set well with the police union. I don't think it set well with the governor as well. And that put state's attorney Worrell on the radar screen, I'm sure. And Worrell, in her defense, she has said very plainly that she is simply living up to her campaign promises and that voters voted for her to implement these policies. But this is where it gets tricky because her version of what she says is just doing her job

for the governor appears to be neglect of duty i mean my question to you legally speaking is this just a matter of opinion or interpretation or is there any kind of objective way to sort this out well i mean i think that the governor has the responsibility of pointing out exactly what he views as her dereliction of duty which um has yet to be made clear as her dereliction of duty, which is yet to be made clear. And she very vociferously is saying, I am doing my job. And so, you know, you're asking, is this a matter of opinion? I mean, certainly it's a matter of fact, right?

Of which people can have different opinions, but we need to know exactly what is the governor claiming that Monique Worrell did that was, or that does constitute dereliction of duty. I don't think there's anything that he can point to in that regard. And just for our listeners sake, can you tell us about this part of the Florida Constitution that does allow a governor to remove an elected official? Like what does it say and what are the parameters of that? an elected official? Like what does it say and what are the parameters of that? Right. Article 4, Section 7 of the State of Florida Constitution authorizes the governor to suspend any state officer not subject to impeachment on the grounds of malfeasance,

misfeasance, neglect of duty, drunkenness, incompetence, or permanent inability to perform official duties. right? And so the question here is, what is malfeasance? What is neglect of duty? What does it mean to be incompetent? And again, we don't have any specific allegations that indicate what exactly the governor is claiming are neglect of duty or malfeasance of any way. You're listening to the Florida Roundup. We're talking about the suspension of Orange and Oceola County State Attorney Monique Worrell. Governor DeSantis saying he suspended her for neglect of duty. Worrell and her supporters saying this is a political act. We're with

Professor Judith Scully and reporter John Kennedy. John Kennedy, if I could bring you back into this conversation, I mean, put this in context for us. It has been noted by a number of folks that DeSantis obviously is running for president. What about the timing of this? Yeah, the timing is very interesting. It occurred a day after he had gotten a lot of negative campaign coverage for unseating his campaign chairman and replacing that chairman with the person who is currently his chief of staff in the governor's office is going to take over now as DeSantis' national campaign chairman. So DeSantis, you know, was able to sort of change the news around Ron DeSantis by moving from a story the day before that had, you know, cascade of problems beset the governor's office, the governor running for

president once again. This is, you know, Deantis, who has already rebooted at least twice his presidential campaign. But now he's able to come back to Tallahassee and at a 8.15 in the morning news conference announce this action against suspending Worrell and then not taking any questions from reporters that were at the scene. And then not taking any questions from reporters that were at the scene. So there you can sort of change the trajectory of your messaging here in one fell swoop, maybe. I've got a question here. S Stone writes into us on Twitter, that Twitter handle again for folks, or X if you want to

call it that, at Florida Roundup. S Stone writes, and is DeSantis administration investigating all other state's attorneys for these same metric, the elective duty that would be? So, John Kennedy, what about that? Do we know if there are other state's attorneys who are kind of in the spotlight here or potentially could be worried about their job? Well, we don't, to answer that directly, but I think there is some concern because just yesterday as well, the state Senate Democratic leader, Lauren Book, who is from Broward County, she sent a letter to the governor's office requesting, you know, a little bit of insight into this? You know, are there other potential suspensions coming of elected officers around the state? And what is your reasoning? We'd like to see some, you know,

metrics or some data that would support what you are, you know, claiming you need to do. So, yeah, I think there is some concern. And then even beyond that, we just wrote a story that ran today about the idea that the Republican House Speaker Paul Renner, who's from the Jacksonville area, he recently got approval from the Florida Supreme Court for going to be doing a study looking at possibly consolidating Florida's 20 judicial circuits. Now, there's some folks that are looking at that as this is another effort to, as the Democrats are saying, it's sort of gerrymandering the courts to where you could wind up, you know, recasting the boundaries of judicial circuits. And perhaps in DeSantis' view, maybe is the goal to try to wind up with conservative state attorneys in every, you know, existing judicial circuit around the state. We may not have 20 circuits anymore. Maybe it's going to wind up something less. That's something that is still in development and maybe a topic for the legislative session in 2024.

Very, very interesting there. It's something to watch, obviously. Professor Scully, I want to bring you back into this. You know, it's worth keeping in mind, of course, last year, Hillsborough County State Attorney Andrew Warren was suspended. That has gone through the courts. Warren tried to get back into office. It was kind of a complicated legal history. But my question to you is, can we learn anything about how that Warren case played out as to what we might expect from from Worrell's suspension and her attempts to get back into office? Very hard to predict. And I think whether or not Attorney Worrell gets back into office is really

going to be a question of election, right? Will people come forward and support her in her reelection campaign? But in terms of the court aspect of this, I want to point out that in Warren's case, the federal district court actually did conclude that Governor DeSantis' actions were political, right? So they didn't find a basis substantively that would indicate that there was any dereliction of duty on his part either. And so I think we have some court precedents here saying, look closely at what DeSantis is doing because his actions do appear to be political and not based on factual data. And in that case, the court concluded that, but in the end said, but I can't put the state

attorney back into office. I can say this looks like it was political, but I can't put him back into office. Right. The federal court doesn't have the power to do that. They don't have a remedy for this problem that they have identified, most definitely. But there is still a lawsuit pending pertaining to whether or not what Governor DeSantis did in some way has impacted the state's attorney's First Amendment rights as well. Thank you.

And just to close out our conversation, a tweet from Terry Fortman says, It's a great example of an autocrat defeating the will of the people when they had elected her by a wide majority. the people when they had elected her by a wide majority. And we've been speaking with Judith Scully, professor of law at Stetson University College of Law. And also we've been speaking with John Kennedy, capital correspondent for Gannett Newspapers in Florida. Thank you both so much for coming on the Florida Roundup. Thank you. Thank you. Coming up after the break, a closer look at Florida's new immigration law and how it's affecting Floridians without documented immigration status. You're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio.

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on Today Explained. Tonight at 6.30 on WGCT News 89.9. High above us right now are 4,500 satellites run by one man. So half of all orbiting satellites are controlled by SpaceX and Elon Musk. Which raises the question, is the atmosphere just there for the taking? New York Times tech reporter Cade Metz joins us to talk about Musk's play to control the skies. That's next time on Think. Tonight at 10 on WJCT News 89.9. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Matthew Petty in Tampa. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami.

Throughout Florida, there are many families of immigrants. Some of those families include members who are undocumented or in the process of obtaining permanent citizenship. A new series from WMFE explores how a new law impacts these families. Senate Bill 1718 passed in the 2023 legislative session and went into effect July 1st. The sweeping legislation covers over a dozen policy areas that target Floridians without documented immigration status. That is people like Ave. Before when my children were small I was afraid. I didn't want to drive so I was keeping most of the time in my house. Every time that we went to the church or buy groceries, it was like hard because I'm always telling my children,

be good, don't move. The police is everywhere. All this year, it's like living in the shadow. So we're not talking about this, not even with my family, because it's something like just inside me or my own family. Because she's still undocumented, Ave uses a nickname for this story, which is featured in the multimedia series. And Ave spoke with WMFE reporter Joe Burns, who joins us now on the Florida Roundup.

Joe, thanks for coming on. You bet. And we're also joined now by Talia Blake, WMFE's Morning Edition host and reporter, as well as Samuel Vilches Santiago, the Florida director of the American Business Immigration Coalition. Talia, Samuel, thank you both for coming on as well. Thanks for having me.

And our lines are open for this segment. Has this new Florida law affected you, affected your family, affected your business? Give us a call at 305-995-1800 or send us a tweet at Florida Roundup. Joe Burns, let's start with you. We just heard from Ave. She's part of a multi-generational immigrant family who you spoke with for this series. What can you tell us about her and the rest of her family and the situation they're in right now? Yeah, it's a huge family. So the dad, grandfather came over in 1988 and then he has ten kids. So in the 90s, they came over. And nine of the ten, there's one daughter who remains in Mexico. When I asked Ave about a word to describe her family, she immediately said, a faithful family.

For them, their Catholic faith is very important. They grew up saying the rosary together. So that's like a huge part of who they are. And when it comes to this law, which is now in effect SB 1718, where does it leave the family? I mean, this is a family with mixed status. Some people are undocumented. Some people are American citizens or have other kind of, you know, legal paperwork. How is this law affecting families like this family? I think one of the big ways it affects them is in terms of travel. For instance, Abe, during the summer, would go to other states. We'd go to Georgia to work in agriculture.

Can't do that now, right? They'd take family vacations together out of state. What happens to that, right? If Ave is in one of the cars coming back, is the other family member going to be charged with a felony under this new law? So it has had effects on them in that way. So it has had effects on them in that way. And it's tricky because there was a whole lot of anxiety as this law was beginning to come into effect. But I don't think people have experienced a lot of the things that Aave does is she tries to educate her friends in the immigrant community about the impacts of this law. And for this story, you also spoke with Aave's niece, who uses the nickname Chadi for the series.

Let's listen to a clip from that conversation. So they all have different feelings, different interpretations of everything, and it's like they all have their own struggles. All right, so that's Chari speaking about the mix of immigration statuses between her family members. Joe, can you elaborate a little bit on this for us? Right, so it's all over the place. Her grandfather, Donaciano Arroyo, came over in 1988. Eventually, in 2006, he became a U.S. citizen. And that was huge for a lot of his children. A lot of them were able to get their green cards and eventually, in many cases, become U.S. citizens. It wasn't that way for Ave, because she was married, a little bit older, had kids. She wasn't able to get the green card at that time. So in this family, there are people who

are undocumented, people who have the green cards, people who are U.S. citizens, the whole gambit. I wonder too, I mean, just thinking about anonymity, how did WMFE's newsroom approach the series thinking about that immigration status of some of the subjects? WMFE does lightly, grant anonymity. It's just something we don't usually do. But our news director, Latoya Dennis, said we want to have a policy of do no harm. And for a lot of these people, in order for them to be able to share their story, we had to grant anonymity because otherwise their livelihood, you know, would be very much threatened by putting their names out there. Yeah, got it. I wanted to just ask about some of the technical aspects of this part, the part of this law that requires employees' names to be run through the E-Verified database technically only affects people who work for companies that employ 25 people or more. I

wonder if that includes some of the folks that you talk to during your reporting. some of the folks that you talk to during your reporting? It does in a way, right? So one of the deals with this law is that this e-verify verification only applies for new hires. So someone who has a job, they're not really at risk of losing that job because the company needs to do an e-verify check. So for Abe, I mean, she's had the same, worked for the same company for 20 years, a very good employee, right? And she stayed with her job because it would be difficult if she had to get a new job.

Sure thing. I want to just play a little more of your conversation with Chari too. In this clip, she talks about her grandparents' journey. Let's take a listen. My family, my grandparents came here. It's very hard for them to leave a part of who they are, their culture, to go somewhere else, somewhere new, to learn a new language, to adjust to so many things.

And it's like they've gone this long putting us first, their future generations or their future family first. And it's just nice to know that they were able to do that the sacrifice that they made and I don't know I think it's nice that we're still able to try to like still have that culture here. Speaking of culture and traditions Jo you visited the Arroyos for one for dinner one night what can you tell us about the evening you spent with them just give us an us an idea of the type of food you shared, the conversation, the company. Yeah, so I'm not an idiot, right?

So I scheduled, or we scheduled this appointment for 6.30 at a family of Mexican immigrants. You know there's going to be good food, and there was. So I walk in, there's a table spread, and it's chicken tinga tostadas, which I didn't realize was a thing. It's just fantastic. And the chicken was just kind of soaking in a chipotle sauce. And so it was absolutely delicious. soaking in a chipotle sauce. And so it was absolutely delicious. And one of the things that I really noticed about this family is just the degree of hospitality. You really

could see the warmth among the family members, you know. And that was communicated to me as a journalist as well. Thank you, Joe, for making us all salivate. I'll keep that to myself. Samuel, I want to bring you into this conversation. Samuel, I mean, we've heard quite a bit and for quite a while now, some anecdotes about how this new Florida law is impacting immigrant communities in Florida, some anecdotes of people leaving, people having troubles of some kind. You are the Florida director of the American Business Immigration Coalition. I'll just reiterate. I mean, what have you been hearing directly? We've basically been hearing the same thing. We have over 300 members across the state who have different types of businesses in different industries. And pretty much across the board, we've heard the same thing.

For instance, one of our biggest leaders in the agriculture industry, he has five different family farms across the state, primarily in South Florida. And he was telling us how he was shooting a commercial for his business and he was utilizing a drone. And when his workers saw the drone, they all started running away because they thought it was the state coming for them, pretty much. So we've heard that in different industries across the state.

We heard it in construction. Another one of our members has a big construction company in Jacksonville and across the state. And when he showed up to one of his job sites in Jacksonville, right after the legislation was enacted on July 1st, the site was empty, all of the workers that left. So we know that this will have an economic impact, primarily in key industries like construction, agriculture, hospitality, etc. And Samuel, I mean, the second biggest part of the state economy,

the second biggest chunk of it is agriculture, which is an industry that heavily relies on immigrant labor and support. You know, our harvesting, not our harvesting, the planting season is coming up now. Do we have any kind of sense of how this might play out in the agricultural field? That's actually our biggest concern. About 47% of all of the agricultural workers in the state of Florida are undocumented and many others that are documented, they have family members who work in the industry who are

undocumented. And the biggest worry is what's going to happen in October when the new agriculture season starts picking up. All of the workers have to be rehired pretty much. And that means they have to go through the E-Verify mandate. But we saw in other states where this law was implemented, like in Georgia in 2013, whether the year after the E-Verify mandate is implemented, there's significant loss for the agriculture industry. And that's pretty much what different leaders in the agriculture sector here in Florida are expecting.

And there's just pretty much a lot of concern all around. Talia, I want to bring you into this conversation. all around. Talia, I want to bring you into this conversation. You spoke with the state Republican representative, Randy Fine of Brevard County, who sponsored this bill in the Florida House. And you talked to him for this WMFE series. Let's listen to a clip of that conversation right now. And I want to be clear.

I'm not saying all asylum claims are false but the ones that i'm thinking about are the ones that are at our southern border and so if you are fleeing if you have concern legitimate concern for your safety you should be claiming asylum in the first country that you reach that is not your own country you don't have the right to leave your country and wander through one or two or three or four other countries shopping for a better deal. So Talia, Representative Fine there talking about what he views as the shortcomings of federal law and how people end up in this country. I mean, what did Representative Fine say about some of these concerns coming from businesses and how this is going to impact undocumented immigrants or just other immigrants

in the state? Yeah, so he had a lot to say about why he supported these laws. And when it came to businesses, one of the main things that stood out in our conversation was that he said that businesses that are hiring undocumented workers, that's not a good business model to follow because when you have workers who aren't documented, they also don't have health insurance. And if they get sick or anything like that, now they have to go to the hospital without insurance. And that was one of the big things that he was pointing out that it's just not a good way to run your business. That's what he was saying to concerns for businesses through our conversation. You're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. And Talia, following up on that, you know, fellow Republican state representative Rick Roth told

the crowd in Hialeah that this law is really about political messaging and that no one really needs to be scared of enforcement of this. I mean, in speaking to Representative Fine, anyone else you've talked to, is there any sense that lawmakers are distancing themselves from this because of the potential impact of it? Or do we have any sense of that? So there have been some reports of lawmakers distancing themselves from this law. There was actually a video that came out at the beginning of June showing a Florida lawmaker actually asking Latinos in the state not to leave, saying this bill is a big scare tactic and, you know, just don't leave the state. We're just we don't want more people to come in. But when I actually asked Representative Fine about that, he acted as if he hadn't heard

that or hadn't seen any lawmakers who supported it now backtracking. And Talia, and just in terms of that and the question of enforcement or messaging, did this law include new resources for law enforcement to actually enforce the law that they now put on the books? The short answer to that is no, basically. When I talked to Representative Fine about it, he said, basically, we fund law enforcement every year and this will just fall under the umbrella of things that they need to enforce. So just another thing that law enforcement needs to enforce, nothing extra going towards it. Interesting. Joe Burns, I want to bring you back into the conversation. You know, when you're sitting at a dinner table, eating some delicious food, talking with a family about this law and how it impacts people. I mean, on the one level, there's the details of the law, you know, implementation and whatnot.

And on the other side there, I can imagine there's some emotional response. Can you tell us a little bit about that emotional response to this? There is. It's something I heard from Abe in talking about her home country, the politics there, and that the government is willing to basically cause harm or injury to the people as she saw it. I don't want to malign Mexico, but that was her kind of her reaction. And now she says that's happening in Florida, that the government is willing to hurt people is how she sees it. And I think, you know, it's that feeling that, and it may be kind of the purpose of the law, right, to make her feel unwelcome. I want to remind listeners, you can call us for the segment. It's 305-995-1800. Again, that's 305-995-1800. Samuel, in just a few seconds, can you respond to what Joe just said? what Joe just said? Just in general, across the state of Florida, you know, we have a pretty big labor shortage when it comes to different industries. And actually, I want to respond

to what Mr. Fine was saying related to our model. I'm sorry. Hold that thought for us. We're going to go to a very quick break. We'll be right back on the Florida Roundup talking about the new Florida immigration law that just went into effect in January. Speaking with Joe Burns, Talia Blake with WMFE and Samuel Vilches Santiago. We'll be right back after the break.

Should you find yourself in Albuquerque, New Mexico, you could take a stab at scuba diving in the desert. We have divers from Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, who come and do training here. So it's quite the treasure we have in our own backyard. I'm Kyle Risdahl, the thriving economy of scuba education in landlocked New Mexico. Next time on Marketplace. Tonight at 6, here on WJCT News 89.9. Florida is the first state to approve materials by the conservative non-profit PragerU for use in public schools. Teachers can now use its videos freely,

but is the content reliable? PragerU is representing what we would refer to as a logical fallacy, meaning they came to a conclusion that's not based on fact. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. More on all things considered from NPR News. Starting at four on WJCT News 89.9. starting at 4 on WJCT News 89.9. This week marks the 78th anniversary of the destruction of the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. On the next Fresh Air, we'll hear three interviews about the decision to use atomic weapons and what Americans were not told about their effects. Our guests are psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton and journalists Leslie Bloom and Evan Thomas.

Join us. Today at 1 on WJCT News 89.9. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. And I'm Matthew Petty in Tampa. Continuing our conversation about Florida's new immigration law, welcome back WMFE reporters Joe Burns and Talia Blake, along with their colleagues at WMFE.

They've been reporting on the law's impact on Floridians without documented immigration status in a new series called Immigration Divide. Welcome back to the conversation also Samuel Vilchez-Santiago. He's Florida Director of the American Business Immigration Coalition. We welcome your comments and questions to 305-995-1800. You can also send us a tweet at Florida Roundup. Samuel, let's just kind of come back to what you were saying before the break. And you wanted to respond to something that Representative Feiner said. Representative

Feiner told our reporter Talia Blake. What did you have to say about that? Just in general, Representative Fine was talking about the business model being utilized with businesses across the state, but I don't think it's a good economic model for a state that has a 2.6% unemployment rate and where there's only 63 applicants for every 100 open jobs, according to the Florida Chamber of Commerce, to deny the possibility of people who come here to work to actually do that work.

And that is exactly what this state is doing with SB 1718. It is putting, you know, the economy last and putting politics first. The other thing I'll say, I came from Venezuela as a political assailee when I was just 13. We came through an airplane. And the reality is, my case is no different than the people who are showing up to the border to file those claims. Venezuelans, for instance, don't have passports that allow them to come here. They don't have visas that allow them to come here through plane. And the reality is, there's simply no way to come here to They don't have visas that allow them to come here through plane. And the reality is there's simply no way to come here to the United States legally to ask for asylum. Let's get a call in here from Ed in Orange Park. Ed, you're on the line.

Yes, I think that the best solution for everybody involved, including the migrants and the businesses who are looking for workers, is to increase, and this has to be done by the federal government, the legal work visas, where we can vet the individuals, come here, they can be right in the open, and that means themselves, not their entire families. After all, our military is sent overseas, and they cannot bring their families either. So that to me is the first way. The other thing is as a legal immigrant here to the U.S., we find it actually that it's unfair when we have people who come here illegally crossing the border

while our relatives or ourselves went through the entire process, and they're still waiting to get in legally. Now, there's only three countries in Latin America which are run by anti-American dictatorships, which is Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua. Those, of course, should be given a special status depending on each individual circumstance. But everybody else being poor or coming from a high-crime area does not mean that you can get asylum.

Just like if you're from a high-crime area and you're poor from, let's say, Chicago, and you try to sneak into a Latin American or Caribbean country, I can tell you that excuse is not going to work. They're going to kick you right back out. Ed, thank you so much for the call. Samuel, what about that notion of, first of all, the visas? I mean, that would be something that a lot of immigration advocates have been arguing for, working on for some time. What's going on with that now?

We tend to agree. I think in general, the biggest issue with our immigration system is that we haven't had real reform since 1996. We haven't had a real since 1996. We haven't had a real path to citizenship since 1986. And it has completely crumbled at the federal level. And it is true, you know, asylum cannot be utilized for all different cases. But we need, we really need to figure out how to allow people to come here in a legal way so that they can help us continue to grow our economy. Right now, in the United States, we have 9.6 million open jobs. And what we're asking the Biden administration is to utilize its parole powers to provide

work permits to the people who are already here contributing to our economy and also to the people that might be able to come from other countries for different reasons to be able to also do that. And we've gotten pretty significant support from the business community, both in Florida and across the country. I wanted to just ask about that second point that Corla made too, about kind of putting the shoe on the other foot, so to speak, and saying there should be tougher restrictions or, you know, maybe the parameters shouldn't be as broad for who gets asylum, who can claim asylum coming into the United States? What do you think about that?

Well, already what we know is that about 85% of the cases that are heard on asylum actually get denied. So it's actually really hard to get asylum in the US. The problem is we have a significant backlog of people who are applying for asylum. Right now it's taking nine, 10 years to get an asylum interview. And while those people are in the process to get asylum, they get parole and they get work permits and they're in our communities.

What needs to happen is it needs to be an expedited process for the United States to look through those asylum cases as they're coming in. So there's no backlog of people waiting 10 years. And, you know, what we're speaking of, it is a kind of awkward thing, because we're talking about now federal immigration law, and then there's state laws coming in, as, you know, the federal government is kind of kneecapped or unable to pass anything. But Samuel, I did want to follow up and ask you because over the last year, tens of thousands of immigrants from Venezuela, Cuba, Haiti, and Nicaragua have been admitted into the United States coming to Florida. They've been paroled in.

Do we have any kind of sense of how this new Florida law might impact them? Like, are those people considered documented, undocumented? How does that impact them? I'm actually glad you asked. So I actually brought my family from Venezuela through this program. I'm the sponsor of four people that have come here through this. And we asked different groups, different legislators asked of the sponsors of this legislation, both in the House and the Senate during hearings and also during debate about what happens to these people. What happened to the people who have parole? What happens to the people who are asylum seekers?

What happens to TPS recipients, DACA recipients, et cetera? And we had no answer, right? So the law, in my opinion, is left a little vague on purpose. And that is actually what's very concerning because then it gets to be implemented by law enforcement officials in 67 different counties in 67 different ways. And that's exactly why we needed that clarification. Right now, actually, what the law says is that in terms of the human smuggling component, for you to be considered as a felon, you have to be bringing in someone who has not been inspected by a federal immigration official. In this case, the people with parole have been inspected, and so the law wouldn't be

applying to them. But the law is not really specific about that. You're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. The phone number, I'll say, is 305-995-1800. Want to go to the lines now. We have Renee calling from Sarasota. Renee, thanks for calling the Florida Roundup. You're on the line.

Yeah, I'd like to say that I have firsthand experience dealing with illegal immigrants and being in Sarasota and being in Orlando, Florida. Even as recently as now, they in the school, especially in the school system, the illegal immigrants are taking up all the resources that could be used to help black children because a lot of the programs that we have to implement were to help them in terms of their reading level and to help them with just a lot of basic things that they were lacking. But I see firsthand that a lot of the illegal immigrant children are the ones who are benefiting from a lot of the programs, especially in the Florida educational system. Thank you so much for the call, Renee.

Samuel, can you please respond to that? I mean, some people do feel that there is scarcity being created in government programs, education, as Renee mentioned, due to the influx that we have been seeing of immigrants into Florida. I'll give you my case. I came to this country without status until we then applied for asylum. The school system was extremely helpful to me and everyone in my school welcomed me. Despite not knowing any English, five years later I graduated as valedictorian of my high school and got a full-ride scholarship to Princeton University. And we've seen and heard hundreds of those stories from across the state, from undocumented people who come here to work and who come here to work hard. Look, this country, the United States, we have a lot of resources and they can be utilized for sure

to provide more educational opportunities to all the children. And that's exactly what needs to be done. But demonizing immigrant kids is not a way to move past our broken immigration system. We really need to come together as a country, both parties, to figure out a bipartisan solution to a broken immigration system without demonizing children and without demonizing the people who are already here. And Talia, I want to bring you back in here, Talia Blake, with WMFE. Moving forward, what can we expect from Florida lawmakers? The federal

government's a whole different monster. What are we hearing and expecting in Florida? Yeah, before I get to that, I do just want to make a quick note on the last question from the caller. And I will say that the cost to education was one of the reasons that Representative Fine had told me was his reason for supporting this measure was the cost to education, the financial burden to taxpayers. So I just do want to note that. But, you know, federally, people are looking for a change still. Representative Fine, a lot of the times, was blaming the current board of policy. But right now now the president is working to make something for immigrants but we just we're still seeing that play out

right um and joe burns any last thoughts on this before we we have to close out the segment yes absolutely people should go to wmfe.org and read and listen to and watch the work of my co-workers here at WMFE and working on this series. It has been a real eye-opener for all of us. I will echo that. I will echo that. The WMFE series on this new law has been tremendous. Joining us talking about that was Joe Burns and Tal talia blake also we want to thank samuel vilches santiago with the american business immigrant coalition thank you all for coming on to the florida roundup thank you so much thank you and you can find out more about the series immigration divide on wmfe.org that's our program for today florida roundup produced by wjct public

media in jacksonville and wLRN Public Media in Miami. Hilda Schatz and Bridget O'Brien are the producers. WLRN's vice president of radio and our technical director is Peter Mayers. Engineering help from Doug Peterson, Charles Michaels, and Michelle Corum. Richard Ives answers the phones. Our theme music is provided by Miami jazz guitarist Aaron Libos at AaronLibos.com. I'm Danny Rivero. And I'm Matthew Petty.

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