The Florida Roundup - Doctors push back on immigration bill; freedom vs. authoritarianism; combating hate speech

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

This week on the The Florida Round Up: An immigration bill sparks pushback from medical professionals; we discuss whether Florida is tilting towards authoritarianism; combating hate speech with Volusia Sheriff Michael Chitwood.

Welcome to the Florida Roundup, and thanks for listening. I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. Florida lawmakers have been passing a rash of far-reaching bills this spring, a ban on abortion at six weeks of pregnancy, the loosening of gun regulations, at six weeks of pregnancy, the loosening of gun regulations, measures taking aim at academic freedoms. And they were also working to pass an anti-undocumented immigrant bill that critics have called radical. But this week, legislators ran into a powerful force, Florida's immigrants, who number 4.5 million strong

and account for 21% of the state's population. Now, both religious and business groups from this powerful community rose up and spoke out against House and Senate bills that would have made it a felony to transport or house undocumented people. First, let's listen to the sponsor of the House version of the bill, Representative Kyan Michael, a Jacksonville Republican whose son was killed in a car crash in a vehicle driven by an undocumented immigrant in 2007. When we talk about people coming through the borders, we don't know who these people are. This bill simply causes us to put a pause there.

We need to find out who these people are. Who are the people who are living next door to you, who are working probably in the same place that some of your children are working? Who are they? The bill has also drawn sharp criticism from health care providers in the state. Those health care providers fear that the legislation will create a culture of fear that could prevent people from seeking critical care that they really need. And so after loud protests, the measure cracking down on illegal immigration has been watered down. But what will be enacted?

We begin the hour with a closer look as we look at the intersection of immigration policy and health care in Florida. Give us a call, Florida, from the peninsula to the panhandle. We're live statewide. The number 305-995-1800 or tweet the show at Florida Roundup as we welcome Stephanie Columbini, health reporter for WUSF and Health News Florida, and Kevin Cho-Tipton, a nurse practitioner in Miami. Hey guys, thanks for being with us. Thanks. Good afternoon. Good to have you both. Stephanie, let's start with you. You've been following this proposed legislation. It's House Bill 1617 and Senate Bill 1718. Which provisions of this legislation have drawn the most criticism from medical professionals? So there are some provisions that would require hospitals that accept Medicaid in the state to ask patients about their immigrant immigration status on like patient intake forms and, you know, ask about your citizenship and then collect that data and report it to the

state several times a year. And so medical professionals have been very concerned about that. Not only that, religious groups, business groups have, it seems, successfully pressured lawmakers to water down some language in the bill. Initially, the bills would have made it a felony to transport or house any undocumented immigrant. You could be charged potentially with a felony if you took someone to church or to the doctor, if you maybe transported someone in an ambulance or even on a school bus, things like that. Can you briefly tell us, activism pushing against this measure seems to have worked. Tell us how that played out. Yeah, I think people just raised a lot of alarm because there was so much kind of confusion

associated with that, especially, you know, a church member might not ask about somebody's immigration status, might not know somebody's undocumented. If they see somebody is in need, of course, they might offer to help. Or is it considered harboring or transporting an immigrant? You know, if you're, you know, allowing them to come into your church or giving them a ride, like you mentioned as an example. So they push back. And so state lawmakers have clarified, you know, that is no longer the case, but it is still it still would be considered a felony if you knowingly transported an undocumented immigrant into Florida. So they kind of tweak the language to clarify that. I see. So so then what is still in the bill if it does pass?

What types of changes will we see in particular on the health care side? So as I mentioned on the health care side, you know, that requirement for hospitals to ask about immigration status, this is something the DeSantis administration has tried to do in the past. A couple of years ago, the governor had issued an executive order kind of asking for hospitals to share data about patient immigration status. But the thing was, hospitals don't ask typically what somebody's status is, so they didn't have data to share. And what this bill does is require them to ask. And the bill also does state that healthcare professionals would have to inform patients that in no way would sharing their immigration status

affect the quality of their care, or, you know, their personal information will not be shared with immigration authorities. But there's still a culture of fear that health professionals worry this could create, you know, not everybody reads the bill text when a law is passed, so not everyone would know that. And many undocumented immigrants might just hear, oh my gosh, they're asking about my immigration status. I could get deported. And therefore, they're going to avoid seeking health care. And so that could lead to obviously people's lives being at risk, but also in terms of cost of care and difficulty of care. If somebody puts off, say, getting high blood pressure or minor chest pains addressed, and then suddenly they're having to report to the hospital and a full blown heart attack or stroke, then it's a much more significant problem that everybody has to deal with. And that's something doctors and other health professionals are really

worried about. It's a little bit reminiscent of the debates about putting the undocumented or the immigration status on census forms that the Trump administration tried to do, which was rolled back after some time. I do want to bring in some calls here. You can call us at 305-995-1800. And I want to go to Millie calling us from Pembroke Pines. Millie, thanks for calling. You're on. Yes, hi. Thank you, everybody. You know, I've been tuning in to your show for the past month and a half, and honestly, you know, most of the comments and the bills that are discussed in your show are always trying to find the negative aspect of our Florida legislature. I mean, this is a state where people from the Northeast and around the country

are running to have better standards of living. Our economic and financial structure is in good standing, attracting new businesses. And, you know, you continue to focus, even calling it at the head of your show, a dictatorial state is such a misrepresentation of what this state stands for. So I really have an objection in terms of everything that you focus on every week instead of trying to focus on the positive that we have in this state where, again, most people want to come to this state and live here. Thank you, Millie. I was hoping to get some comment on the bill that we're discussing. But Kevin, I do want to go to you. You were present at this week's, at the Monday meeting for HB 1617. And to be there, you had to take a morning flight from Miami after working a night shift.

Why was it so important for you to be there in Tallahassee to speak on this immigration measure? Yeah, no, I mean, the honest truth is that we were asking for help. We found out that the bill was going to the committee evening before. And I spoke to my friends, my co-workers, my colleagues in the hospital here, because we know that these conversations cause fear. They cause distrust. And if you can imagine if you have someone who you love or even yourself go to the hospital facing life or death and a registration agent comes in and asks you, hey what's your insurance it and you don't have insurance it already makes you wonder hey am i going to get worse care and if you add to

that hey do you have insurance and are you a citizen it only invokes more fear and you know this has been well studied uh since the trump administration and even before and regardless of president or regardless of administration we know that based out of a great deal of data from UCLA and other areas that asking this very question can reduce the likelihood of folks seeking out lifesaving care up to 15% for some populations. And not only does that affect their families and themselves, but it impacts health care for everyone. families and themselves, but it impacts health care for everyone. When folks wait and they're sicker, it costs more to take care of them and it costs lives. So that's why it was so important to us and honestly, pretty much universal condemnation from everyone that we spoke to in the hospital. And Kevin, supporters of this bill in the legislature, they argue that Florida and taxpayers should be spending health care dollars on people who live legally in the state, they argue that Florida and taxpayers should be spending health care dollars

on people who live legally in the state of Florida and who have documented status, people that are not undocumented. What is your response to that line of argument? I mean, I would say that the caller is right. Folks do want to come to Florida for many reasons, including because they have families here that are willing to take care of them, and also because this is part of a community of states that has had a history of humanity. And regardless of your, I think, perspective on immigration policy, I do think that health care should not be an arm of enforcing any kind of punitive or enforcement actions when it comes to immigration. And honestly, the truth is, we should be willing to take care of everyone because your health affects everyone else's health around you.

And this was made very clear during the pandemic. And I think it's still very clear now. The number again is 305-995-1800. I want to go to Angelita calling from Winter Haven. Angelita, thanks for calling. You're on. Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my question slash comment. Number one, just my quick comment. I can't believe that Florida has gotten to be so mean-spirited when it comes to health care. I'm a nurse by trade, and I'm also a green card holder. And having to get information about somebody's status before treating them is not right. And also, if you do happen to be like me, somebody that has a green card and that green card expires, now you're undocumented.

What does that do for the person? Are they no longer able to receive health care? I can actually answer that if you'd like. The ultimate answer is no, you will still get care. And EMTALA does protect you from emergency care. does protect you from emergency care. What the bill does essentially is it says that registration officials or members of the staff must ask you this question, but it cannot be used as an enforcement of your immigration status. And it must be followed by a statement that it will not affect your care. I think the point that we were trying to make as healthcare

providers when we went and we signed on to a petition letter was that it will not affect your care. I think the point that we were trying to make as health care providers when we went and we signed on to a petition letter was that it doesn't matter necessarily if it truly affects the ability for you to get care. It's more effective the likelihood that people will seek out care and create a chilling effect for folks that have mixed status families, perhaps a child or a grandparent that's overstayed a visa that have escaped Venezuela or Cuba or Haiti or a place where life is very different. I think that was that was the primary point. But luckily, EMTALA still protects everyone. 305-995-1800.

Frank in Crawfordsville, Crawfordville, Florida. Hi, Frank. You're on the radio. Hi. Hey, thank you. You know, I'm listening to all this and I'm wondering, do I have to show my passport every time I go to the hospital or do I have to prove that I'm an American citizen? What about for the ambulance that carries me to the hospital? So they're transporting me also. Do I have to prove to them that I'm an American citizen? Do all Americans now have to carry your papers? In other words, the old saying, where are your papers? Papers, please, I think is another way people talk about that. All right, Frank. Stephanie Colombini, you explained a little bit about that a few minutes ago, but can you answer Frank's question? You know, the bill doesn't outline specifics,

and so it is a good question of how exactly can they prove somebody's status. It might just be, you know, trust, or they're asking for a form of identification, a driver's license, say, or proof of residency. So I think that's something that will get outlined. The bill does kind of direct the Agency for Healthcare Administration to establish rules and processes about how to gather this data. So I think that's a great question and something we'll be keeping an eye on. documented patients that the chain of custody of the data health care institutions gather could be used in some way against them. That may not be a founded fear, but what about that? What do we know about how the data collection will be used? We, you know, the bill has said, you know, personal information should not be involved. This is, you know, numbers of patients, patient volume.

They also want to know about the cost, how much it's costing hospitals each year to care for undocumented patients. But, you know, it's a perception thing, right? So even if that's the case, that personal data would be stripped. People don't know that. And so there's that perception that their personal information might get shared with the wrong person. And as Kevin has been talking about, that's enough to make somebody rethink whether or not to seek treatment. You know, we're getting tweets about this. Here's one from a listener. He says, I can only imagine the effects this legislation might have. Besides being an attempt at violating human rights, it would be devastating

economically. This is a state that depends quite a bit on immigrant labor and, let's be frank, often the labor of undocumented people. Now, Kevin, let's go back to you. Earlier, a caller mentioned on the program that we don't talk enough about Florida's success stories. People moving here from other states, they like the low taxes. They like the warm weather. They see it as fair to talk about legislation that many Florida residents are concerned about, this bill being one of them, and the potential economic impacts of a bill that would harm this community. What are your thoughts about that? Well, absolutely. I think that this bill harms more than just one community. Well, absolutely. I think that this bill harms more than just one community. Not only, of course, does the chilling effect impact the families and the folks that are more afraid to receive care, but the data that we've seen out of similar laws that were implemented in Arizona and parts of the Southwest show that it's not just undocumented residents that choose not to seek out health care.

It actually increases the likelihood that immigrant families of all types will be less likely to seek out health care. Ultimately, again, I think it's important to remember that everyone's health, your health, my health, the caller's health, is all dependent on an operating health care system and one that also takes care of everyone's public health. So when we when we allow some things like small things to get out of hand for an individual or for or for a community, it ends up costing all of us more money to take care of each other. And honestly, it does cost lives. Stephanie, where do these measures currently stand? What can we expect in final passage?

Yeah, so the Senate could vote on it today. The House, a committee had passed their version of the bill, and we could expect that to go, you know, for a full House vote maybe next week. But we're definitely keeping an eye on what's going on in the Senate today. Just one of many bills we've been covering this spring legislative session, and I want to thank you both for breaking it down for us. Stephanie Colombini, she covers health care for WUSF and Health News Florida, which is such an amazing resource about health care and health news information across Florida. Also joining in Kevin Cho-Tipton, a nurse practitioner in Miami. And Kevin, in addition to appearing on this show, you went to the Capitol after working a night shift to testify about this. So you must be pretty tired. So thank you for being with us today as well.

Thank you. Thank you. All right, folks. So that's a great discussion. And everybody that's been on hold, you know what? Stick around, even though we're going to change topics if you are on hold somewhere in the state, because we have a lot coming up here on the Florida Roundup later in the hour. Don't miss our conversation with the Florida sheriff taking on neo-Nzis in his county that's later in the hour keep listening for our talk with sheriff Michael Chitwood but up next is Florida an authoritarian state some say yes we'll be right back សូវាប់ពីបានប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្� Terima kasih telah menonton E aí Thank you. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami.

And I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. Freedom. That's a theme Governor Ron DeSantis has consistently woven into his messaging. From St. John's to St. Lucie, from the streets of Hialeah to the Speedway in Daytona, from the Okeechobee all the way up to Micanopy, freedom lives here in our great sunshine state of Florida. That's the governor during his second term inauguration this last January. And in that same speech, DeSantis spoke of people flocking to Florida from other states that had, quote, consigned their people's freedom to the dustbin. And it's been more than just words. Many of the governor's priorities have

been carried out by the Republican-controlled legislature this session, and proponents of the bill say they bolster Floridians' freedom. They are popular with a great swath of Florida residents, very unpopular with others. The question is, which freedoms and for who? with others. The question is, which freedoms and for who? Give us a call here on the Florida Roundup, 305-995-1800, or tweet us at Florida Roundup. And for more, we're going to welcome Helen Lewis, a writer at The Atlantic. Helen, thanks for coming on. Thank you very much for having me. So just to get started, in a recent article, you made the case that Floridians have been essentially duped for an authoritarian governor. And I want us to start off with you stating your case as to why this is the fact. We've definitely had a lot of callers on this show over the last couple of months, especially calling in and saying exactly that.

But I want to hear your perspective. Please state your case for us. Well, I'll start by stating the contrary case, which is I think that Governor Ron DeSantis made a big part of his appeal, the relaxation of COVID restrictions. You know, that was his idea of freedom, freedom not to have to face a vaccine mandate at work

or not to have to mask, for example. So that's his idea of freedom. But I think there are other ideals of freedom that he has not lived up to in the same way. And, for example, I would cite the case of someone like Andrew Warren, an elected prosecutor who was essentially suspended from his job on a kind of whim and has been going through the courts now to try and get that job back. on a kind of whim and has been going through the courts now to try and get that job back. Or, for example, the proposed law, which was, I think, a bit too authoritarian, even for the Floridian House and Senate, which are Republican controlled,

about restricting press freedom. You know, this idea that bloggers were going to have to register with the government, which even, you know, some Republicans were tweeting about thinking that was quite illiberal. You know, all the way that the migrant flights, you know, the famous migrant flights to Martha's Vineyard happened. You know, this is somebody who I think is quite willing to be flexible about the law when it suits him, wants to kind of buck those kind of great Floridian traditions of the, you know, the sunshine laws. He's not particularly welcoming to journalists excluding you saw that this week in some of his press conferences. So that's my kind of case about the fact that, you know, Ron DeSantis has a lot of freedom for

him and people that agree with him, and maybe not so much for the people trying to scrutinize him or oppose him. And we asked the chairman of the Republican Party of Florida, Christian Ziegler, on this show a couple weeks ago, to specifically respond to critics who say the governor is abusing his power by steamrolling local governments going after corporations like disney the tampa bay rays and locally elected officials that are in the opposition and the striking part of that conversation is that ziegler didn't really disagree. He told us that the governor has been empowered by Florida voters to do just that, to fight this, quote, woke mind virus,

wherever it might pop up. Your response to that? Right, and as you can tell from my accent, I'm British. So, you know, for me, learning about the Floridian system and the American system generally has been an education, but it relies on checks and balances and different branches of government, right? The idea is that the executive is not the only people

who get to have a say in everything. You have other branches too. And that's the thing I think that probably Ron DeSantis struggles with, the idea that the courts might be a check on him or, you know, outside of government, the idea that the press might be a check on him. No, as far as he's concerned, you know, he has a mandate from the people, even though that's not everybody in Florida. And that means that he should be able to do what he wants, essentially.

And Helen, the most, I mean, you did mention you're in Europe, so I'm going to ask you. The most prominent case of democratic backsliding in Europe right now is probably what's happening with President Viktor Orban in Hungary. Are there any parallels between how DeSantis and Orban are governing or how they're being talked about in Europe? Oh, absolutely. I mean, some of DeSantis' favorite intellectuals, people like Christopher Ruffo, the anti-critical race theory activist, you know, he's been over there in Hungary on a kind of paid fellowship by the government, learning from them. You know, Tucker Carlson's show was broadcast from Hungary.

So there's a big feeling on the right that there's a lot that can be learned from what Viktor Orban calls it a liberal democracy. So the idea is he's not a liberal, but he's somebody who has been elected, who can win elections. And so, yeah, there are absolutely things that are ported across. One of the most obvious examples would be the fact that Viktor Orban has made a big show against campaigning against George Soros, the philanthropist, who gives huge amounts of money to liberal causes. He drove a university out of Hungary for being as he would, I guess, whatever the Hungarian for woke is. And you can see parallels there to the way that Ron DeSantis really wants to remake New College, Florida,

into something more like a conservative college. You know, he thinks that higher education has been taken over by people of a particular mindset. Now, as it happens, I kind of tend to agree with his critique there, right? Higher education does lean pretty leftwards. There is something about that. But it is also a marketplace. It is also a place that has its own series of rules and governance structures that he's just basically kind of driven a bulldozer right through. And that is very reminiscent of what Viktor Orban did in Hungary as well. did in Hungary as well. 305-995-1800. Let us know your thoughts. Paul in Tampa. Hi, Paul. Good morning or good afternoon. You're on the air. Hi. Good afternoon. Thank you. I'm just calling to say I'm a gay man. I was born in Orlando. I grew up in Winter Park, left the state at 22 years old, and just returned three years ago, retired, and here I am. And I just want to call out

BS on this DeSantis. I'm trying not to say bad words. DeSantis is claiming that Florida is the place where freedom comes to live and woe comes to die. It's just, it's sad. It's kind of pathetic. And we all have to wake up and we have to really take this man on. I mean, I'm glad that Disney is doing it. They're going to be formidable enemies of his, I believe. But we all need to do this. We all need to start looking within and realize that,

come on, let's admit it. It's all about white. It's all about white supremacy. That's the hidden, you know, where woke comes to die is where tolerance comes to die. Tolerance against anything that's not conceived to be evangelical Christian faith approved, like homosexuality, like gay marriage, like even just interracial marriage, just open and diverse. Florida could be a great state, but it's not with this man leading it. All right, Paul, thanks for your opinion. You know, Helen, there has been increasing criticism of measures and initiatives that various groups see as discriminatory in Florida,

whether it's the LGBT community, the immigrant community. You talked a little bit about higher education. You know, I'm curious to get your thoughts because the caller referenced white Christian nationalism, white supremacy as behind a lot of this ideology and these pieces of legislation. Supporters of Governor DeSantis would take strong issue with that. They would call him a champion of immigrants and they would point to legislation he recently signed trying to combat hate speech in the state of Florida. So what's your take? I do think it is complicated because obviously, particularly Miami, with its large Cuban population, its large population from Central and South America, is a big constituent voting bloc. And it did, you know, parts of Miami-Dade did go red in a very big swing in that

last gubernatorial election. So it's not clear to me that, you know, Hispanic voters in Miami see him as a white supremacist. The thing I would say is one other thing that happened in that election, however, was that up in the panhandle, a seat, which was a rare majority black seat was carved up and four pieces and each one of them put into a white majority district. And sure enough, the black democrat who held that seat did not get returned um did not get elected any of the new districts that happened so that was you know you could say that that was a gerrymandered seat in the first place it was created to have a black majority seat up there but it was also un-gerrymandered or re-gerrymandered in another particular different direction and actually the whole

congressional map you know ronda santos really you know, Ron DeSantis really, you know, tilted the table in favor of himself in that one. So that bit I do have. And also when I was doing my reporting back in January, I went to a drag brunch in Miami. And what happened after, you know, that bar had inspectors sent around it because of the allegations that there were minors present.

Now, as it happens, I think drag is perfectly fine, but probably best for adults only. But that kind of going after individual businesses is also kind of a hallmark of this administration. The idea that if you kind of step out of line, then, you know, you've got a problem. And let me let me. Not to cut me or you can say it with with with Disney. tiny little drug bar in Miami. Or you can see it with Disney. Not to cut you off, but how do you see Bob Iger, the chairman

and CEO of Disney, slapping back against DeSantis, suing him over that whole dispute? Do you know, I have less of a problem with the Disney thing than with anything else, because I feel Disney can defend itself. You know, this is a kind of company with more

lawyers than you know small countries so they are an opponent the same size and they're one which has historically benefited from extremely beneficial tax and planning regimes in florida you know a very sweetheart deal so i don't have any problem really about them going up against each other the thing that slightly is a sour taste is the idea that it's the problem is actually not Disney's tax arrangements or whatever that might be, but Disney's content and its programming. And that to me in, you know, a country with the First Amendment is very hard to reconcile that the governor of Florida thinks it's his place to decide what color the heroes of, you know, cartoons should be, or whether or not you have gay characters in a children's film.

That is, you know, that to me is the overreach. Omar calling from Pembroke Pines. We're going to have you on in a second. You can call us at 305-995-1800. Omar, thanks for calling. You're on. Well, thank you for taking my call. When I first called, I was slightly off topic. I wanted to respond to the other caller that was offended by people that say DeSantis and the Florida legislature are dictatorial in nature.

But now we are on topic and all you have to do is open your eyes and see what's going on in Florida. Right now, they're trying to pass a law where DeSantis can meet whoever he wants, take money from whoever he wants, spend money however he wants and go on trips and not have to disclose any of it to the state of Florida and to its citizens. That, to me, is dictatorial. They tried to pass a piece of legislation that if you had a blog that talked about political figures, you had to register with the state. To me, that sounds like Cuba. They did kill that measure, I'll say. I know they killed it, but they tried it. That's what's concerning. They did kill that measure, I'll say. I know they killed it, but they tried it. That's what's concerning.

Their attack on a private company for expressing their opinion about something, I think First Amendment rights, that is dictatorial. When you act like Cuba, like Venezuela, like China, and like Russia, expect to be called out on it. And for Republicans to say, well, as long as I agree with the anti-woke, I guess it's okay with me. It won't be okay with you when they come after you and try to silence you as well. Thank you so much for the opinion, Omar. You're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. Helen, I want to go back to you. I mean, talking about this,

it reminds me of something in Plato's The Republic, which was written in 380 B.C. And he basically made the argument that tyranny comes from democracy. I mean, if if Florida is an authoritarian state, as you argue, or if it would become one, it would become one through democratic means. I mean, despite what anyone says about it, obviously, Governor DeSantis is very popular. I mean, he just won re-election with 19 percentage points. That is a mandate. Yeah, I think that's really worth taking into account.

And it comes back to that Orban comparison of, you know, this is a platform that can really win votes. And, you know, there is a certain level of, it makes things much simpler. If, you know, you you know there is a certain level of it makes things much simpler if you know you want to for a certain number of people i think you know people really prize living in a community with real cohesion they want to feel that everybody has the same values that everybody is like them you know that's what i felt very strongly when i went to the villages for example that lots of seniors really value being in a place with lots of other seniors and as it turns out you know it's a very very red area of florida lots of seniors really value being in a place with lots of other seniors. And as it turns out, you know, it's a very, very red area of Florida, lots of other people who politically feel the same as them. And so I think there's a great comfort for lots of people in

feeling that they're in the kind of majority and that, you know, their values are on top. You know, but that is kind of something that is, the democracy was set up in order to allow, you know, a bit more diversity of opinion than that even though it might sometimes be really uncomfortable you know and this is what kind of gets me about the campaign against quote-unquote's wokeness is that that's supposed to be about these people who are incredibly intolerant you know the kind of idea that people are trying to force their values onto you but part of that you know the fight against that to me should be saying you know what if people want to put their pronouns and their email signatures and whatever it might be?

Fine, go ahead. They're not hurting anybody. I'm not going to do it, but you can do it. But there is a kind of reverse version of that, right, which is now I'm going to ban everybody from doing these pro LGBTQ things. polarized landscape, I think, where actually the kind of, to me, the American way of saying this is an outsider, is to say, let a thousand flowers bloom, let's have lots and lots of plurality and diversity. A listener tweets the show, many of us who have been here a decade or more are considering leaving. We don't want to live in an environment, a state-sponsored environment of cruelty toward anyone who is different. The economy will eventually suffer as people vote with their feet, he says. Zemea in Tampa. Hi, Zemea. You're on the air. Yes. Yes. Hi. I would like to say that I recently retired here in Florida. And I would like to remind the audience that Florida was not very long ago a liberal-leaning state under Governor Lawton Childs, I believe was his name.

I wasn't a resident here. Yeah, me either. Walken Lawton, I've heard a turtel of him. Yes, go ahead. Yes, yes. And so what is overtaking the state in the 20 years that I have been here is absolutely alarming. I'm really seriously considering packing up and leaving. I have a son who lives overseas, and we have been talking about him moving to Florida to be with me and to bring his 9-year-old daughter.

But the school system here, it absolutely terrifies him. And so all of our family's plans are on hold. And the other thing I would like to mention is the fact that the Democratic Party in this state appears to be nonexistent. I don't think you'd get much argument out of a lot of listeners, Zameya. I appreciate the call. Almost out of time, Helen listeners, Amaya. I appreciate the call. Almost out of time. Helen Lewis, your final thoughts. I think you're exactly right about what you're saying about the Democrats having real problems there.

And I definitely saw that, particularly when I was in Miami reporting this time. And it is a really strange kind of drift. But, you know, Florida is a template for America. You know, it looks like what most of America will look like in 2050. And so, you know, I hope these conversations continue in your great state because they do matter to the whole country and therefore the whole of the world. Helen Lewis, writer at The Atlantic. Thanks for being with us. Thank you.

Up next, the Florida sheriff standing up to neo-Nazis on the Florida Roundup. We'll be right back. Thank you. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. Extremist incidents in Florida involving racial hate and anti-Semitism rose by 71 percent between 2020 and 2022. That's the conclusion of the Anti-Defamation League's Hate in the Sunshine State report. That's right, Danny. Now a new Florida law is looking to crack down on these incidents. Governor Ron DeSantis has just signed a bill that makes harassing or intimidating someone based on their religion or ethnicity a hate crime,

one that could be prosecuted as a third-degree felony. And that bill drew bipartisan support, passing both chambers unanimously. One of its most vocal proponents is Volusia County Sheriff Michael Chitwood. And Michael Chitwood tweeted the following yesterday. He said, yesterday. He said, we may not agree on everything in politics, but we proved Republicans, Democrats and independents can all unite against extremist losers spreading hate, harassment and violence. Sheriff Chitwood joins us now on the Florida Roundup. And we also want to hear from you. You can call us at 305-995-1800 and also tweet us at Florida Roundup.

I think we're trying to get Sheriff Chitwood. No, we've got him. Sheriff Chitwood, how are you? Sheriff Chitwood, are you there? Okay, we're still trying to get him, but I think we're... We're trying to get him. For the meantime, we're actually going to go back to the phones. We have people calling still from the last segment while we're trying to get the sheriff on.

Let's go to John in Daytona. John, thanks for calling the Florida Roundup. You're on the radio. I appreciate you having me, and I don't want to step on Chitwood's time. He's quite a guy. Yeah, go ahead. What are your thoughts, John? We're trying to get him on still, yeah.

Oh, sure, sure, yeah. So I'm calling about the business atmosphere in Florida. I'm a small businessman. I've been in business for about 13 years now, and I've never seen this climate of fear amongst other small businesses that I interact with. I feel that there's a prior restraint based on what Governor DeSantis is doing to Disney that is just absolutely terrifying.

You know, businesses are afraid to speak. I, you know, personally, it's like, is he going to try to tax my business or something if I tweet something or put it on Facebook? The climate that this is creating, we've heard for years that Republicans are pro business. This is the most anti-business climate I have ever seen in this state. And quite frankly, as a small business, it is scary. And we're kind of like wondering, you know, do we have to fall in line with this? And we're waiting for guidance from organizations like the Chamber, and the Chamber has been absolutely silent on this Disney feud, which for us, it's like we look to the Chambers and those organizations for support, and if they're scared of DeSantis,

then what hope do we have? What's your business, John? Actually, honestly, I'd rather not say. You'd rather not say. Well, can you give us any examples of why you feel, you know, other than Disney, what you've experienced in your life and in your interactions with folks about why you are concerned about the business climate in Florida? And as such, many of the people, my subcontractors, my employees, they're very supportive of the different communities like the LBGTQ community and the communities that are really being targeted by this administration. And one of the side effects I'm having is that if I pick up a client that is far on the right, they don't want to take on that project. And that, you know, and that is something that I think we also need to consider is that, you know, what are the consequences if someone, if a candidate comes to me and says, hey, I want this work, and I say I can't do it, or I won't do it. Is that going to blow back on me? Are there going to be repercussions? Is there going to be some sort of retribution on me? Am I now forced to do this?

And there's no support system, and I don't see how this wouldn't stop businesses from moving to the area. If my business were elsewhere and I was considering moving to Florida, I would give that a second thought. Wow, I appreciate the call, John. But we have Sheriff Chitwood on the line in a related segment as he talks about the rise of neo-Nazis in Volusia County.

Sheriff Chitwood, thanks for being on the show. You're getting national attention for your stance on this. Let's begin there. Tell us what's going on in your county and what you're doing about it. Yeah, it's actually been international it's shocking uh right around we've had some anti-semitic activity here over the years uh and the arrests were made were local individuals who were out spreading spreading

anti-semitism throughout ormond beach area but what we saw during the 500 was it felt like we i felt like to me anyway our community was a home invasion robbery occurred. These group, added this group called the GDL, who is wreaking havoc throughout Florida. They hit neighborhoods of predominantly Jewish folks, some neighborhood folks weren't Jewish, dropping off anti-Semitic literature, stuff about genocide on people's driveways and on their doorsteps. They were Ziploc baggies with a message in it filled with wood chips that were supposed to simulate rat poison, kind of what Hitler put into the, used in the gas chambers.

And then they started using a projector to project hateful messages across the facade of the Speedway that when it scrolled across, it actually looked like the Speedway was putting this message out there. They took over our bridges, our ped passes, and they hung vulgar signs. And what I had learned was two days prior to them invading our county, this group had stalked and shot two Orthodox Jews outside of a synagogue in L.A., and one of them was awaiting sentencing for federal hate crimes for torturing a synagogue. And I said to myself, the community's got to know what happened here. They've got to know what came into our community in the cover of darkness and is sowing these seeds of

antisemitism and hate. So with the help of the JDL and some other police departments in the state of Florida, using their own social media, we were able to identify about 25 of these individuals. I was able to get their criminal histories, their arrest photos, and then we turned the spotlight on them. We held the press conference, all faiths, all races, all colors, all religions, anybody was allowed to come. And we put them up on the big screen and wanted to see who they were. Who they were. Who was arrested for trying to send us a text.

Let me just jump in and say you're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. Sheriff Chitwood, what's your reaction to the bill the governor signed making it a felony to harass, intimidate anyone based on religion or ethnicity? Harassment, vandalism were already crimes. What are your thoughts about this new law? I think it's fantastic. It gives us another tool in the toolbox,

and what it does is it pumps all of the previous crimes up to felonies. So if you get a bullhorn and you shove it in somebody's window and start screaming anti-Semitic stuff at them or follow them in and out of the synagogue, you know, doing that, it's now felony stalking. And that goes a long way to helping us combat this scourge. And Sheriff, you've shared that at times you've wanted to arrest neo-Nazis that you've come across in Volusia

County, but the First Amendment has prevented it since even hateful speech is protected. It seems to me that's something that you've struggled with a little bit. Can you talk about that? Yeah, you know, there's a fine line there, and these guys know how to go right up to that line without crossing it but there's a difference between speech and conduct and and going on to somebody's private property and dropping off these hateful leaflets that's a crime that's trespass you know to broadcast messages of hate onto a private building that's that's a crime uh you know, assault is a crime. Putting that – following folks in and out of a synagogue and putting a bullhorn within an inch of their head and screaming and blasting it, that's a crime.

That's not free speech, and that's what we're targeting is the actions, not so much the words. Kind of the you-can't-scream-fire-in-a-crowded-theater theory, right? There's speech, and then there's something else. That's exactly right. That is a perfect analogy. You don't stand up in an airplane and yell hijack and you don't stand up in a crowded movie theater and yell fire, fire, fire. And Sheriff, what do you think is driving this?

I mean, neo-Nazis showing their faces in public, rallying on freeways, waving swastikas in Florida. I mean, what's driving this, do you think? Well, I think history has taught us that it always has been there. Since Adam and Eve, there has always been hatred. There has always been ethnocentric views of life. That's been there.

But I think what we've seen over the past seven or eight years, and I'll just tell you from Chitwood's perspective, I think when the former president of the United States said that there were good people on both sides of Charlottesville, that was a wink, wink, nod, nod that extremism in certain cases is okay. And I think that has emboldened what may have been with masks, what may have been not so much at the forefront of times has now emboldened that. Sheriff Chitwood, before we say goodbye, you're getting, as you mentioned, international attention for your approach in Volusia County. What have you heard from other Florida sheriffs? And we've only got a minute left.

I've only heard from two other ones who said that I was the only one who could probably pull off what I pulled off. So I took that as a compliment. Do you think they should take a leaf out of your book? I think every elected official should take a leaf out of my book and should strongly stand against extremism. And let me be clear, burning a police station down, burning a gas station down and looting is extremism. And let me be clear, burning a police station down, burning a gas station down and looting is extremism. Wiping out a race, a religion, an ethnicity or sexual orientation is extremism. Put it all in the same basket and combat it the same way. Well, I so appreciate you giving us some time here statewide live on the Florida Roundup.

He is Volusia County Sheriff Michael Chitwood, gaining plaudits across the country and even the world for his approach to dealing with neo-Nazis in Volusia County. Sheriff, appreciate it. Have a good weekend. We'll talk to you again sometime. Thank you. You folks as well, anytime.

And thanks to everyone who called in, tweeted and listened statewide. It is never a slow news week in the Sunshine State. That is our show. The Florida Roundup produced by WJCT Public Media in Jacksonville and WLRN Public Media in Miami. Heather Schatz, Bridget O'Brien and Natu Toei are show producers. WLRN's vice president of radio and our technical director is Peter Mayers. Engineering help from Doug Peterson, Charles Michaels, and Isabella Da Silva. Richard Ives answers the phones.

Our theme music is provided by Miami jazz guitarist Aaron Libos at AaronLibos.com. I'm Danny Ribeiro. And I'm Melissa Ross. Thanks for calling, listening, and tweeting. We'll catch you next Friday at noon.