The Florida Roundup - Florida’s tug of war with Disney; ban on gender identity instruction; major reforms to higher education 

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

The state is trying to take back control of the special taxing district that covers Disney World. Meanwhile, the State Board of Education has extended a ban on gender identity instruction through 12th grade, and lawmakers are considering major reforms to higher education.

Welcome to the Florida Roundup, and thanks for listening. I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. This week, the clash between Governor Ron DeSantis and the state's biggest employer, Disney, got even more heated. biggest employer, Disney, got even more heated. I mean, they thought that they could create some type of development agreements that would essentially render everything that we did null and void and put them in control in perpetuity for this. Well, that's not going to work.

That's DeSantis speaking earlier this week at a press conference. The governor has been scrambling to counter the happiest place on earth ever since Disney outmaneuvered him last month, striking a new deal for the land Disney World occupies, along with a deal to set its own utilities rates. And the governor's fight against Disney began nearly a year ago, we should add, after Disney opposed the parental rights in education bill that critics call the don't say gay bill. That bill banned discussions on gender and sexual identity in kindergarten through the third grade. We'll talk more about that later. And lawmakers just passed a new measure expanding that ban from K through 12. That's right, Danny. Now here's what's new

this week. The new DeSantis appointed board overseeing their special taxing district started outlining an aggressive plan to try to take back control of Disney. At the same time, the governor floated other changes, even suggesting that the state might look at building a prison next to Disney World. next to Disney World. And the governor has faced criticism from both parties over this battle with Disney. In South Florida, where I am, flooding and gas shortages have increased calls for DeSantis to pay more attention to other problems happening in Florida rather than intensifying this battle with the mouse.

Now, we did reach out to Disney CEO Bob Iger for comment, and Disney sent us back his statement statement which he made earlier this month at the company's annual shareholder meeting. Iger saying we love the state of Florida pointing out that Disney has given the state many jobs and revenue and that it's been a two-way street. He goes on to say that when the company took a position on pending Florida legislation, the governor got very angry about that position. And it seems like he decided to retaliate against us, including the naming of a new board to oversee the property and the business, in effect to punish a company for its exercise of a constitutional right.

Free speech. Iger goes on to say that to retaliate for a position the company took sounds not just anti-business but anti-Florida. Well, let us know what you think, Florida. As we discuss the governor's feud with Disney, the state's biggest employer. 305-995-1800 or tweet us at Florida Roundup. As we welcome two experts, Sarah Rumpf, contributing editor at Mediaite. She's been covering this dispute since the beginning.

Hi, Sarah. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Good to have you also with us, Michael Allen Wolfe, a professor of local government and property law at the University of Florida. Professor, good to speak with you. Good to speak to you, too. Thank you so much. So, Sarah, let's take us back to the beginning. Why do you think DeSantis chose to take on Florida's biggest employer, Disney? Well, I've been saying this for a while, that it's all part of a strategy.

while that it's all part of a strategy. And if you look at the beginning of his time as governor, he did a couple things that were praised in a bipartisan way. There was some additional funding towards Everglades restoration, Okeechobee cleanup. There was a teacher pay raise that even the unions were applauding him for. And you know, they don't like to, you know, congratulate Republicans very often. And, you know, he'd get a little bit of buzz from it. But the real juice these days, especially in the conservative movement, is getting on Fox News, making yourself a national figure. And he has been able to do that repeatedly

by identifying these targets in various culture war formats or me against media, the liberal mainstream media. He did that with the 60 Minutes story where they made the accusation that he only gave the COVID vaccine contract initially to Publix because of, I think, a 50, $60,000 donation. We in Florida knew that was a pretty silly sort of thing. And the story got debunked. But he got Tucker Carlson airtime for it. He's done this repeatedly with some targets that he's picked. And when you've got some criticism from conservative parent groups about some of Disney's content, then wow, that's a heck of a, you know, enticing pinata to take a whack at. And he has gotten a lot of attention nationally for these various culture war things. You know, but again, having watched this crazy soap opera play out over the past year, I'm

still flabbergasted by just how it has escalated. If you know what actually happened, what actually really happened is that parental rights and education bill passed. And then the Disney employees were upset and protesting and complaining about it. And the then CEO, Bob Chapek, sent out a press release that criticized the bill, but there wasn't actually any action taken on it. And I've confirmed that with some sources within Disney. I mean, they didn't donate to the legal funds. They haven't done anything.

It was just a press release telling the employees he felt their pain and agreed with them, and please stop yelling at me. You know, that was the trigger for this insane action that the governor and the legislature have taken on what we all know here in Florida is a major driver of our economy. You're causing a bit on that, folks. 305-995-1800. So, Professor Wolf, that really gives us a good understanding of the backstory to this fight. And it brings us up to today. I'm wondering, in your legal opinion, can Florida lawmakers void the development agreement that the Disney board struck on their way out the door, appearing to outfox DeSantis? How might this legal battle play out? Sandus. How might this legal battle play out? Well, I mean, if we learn anything by becoming lawyers, it's that you can never predict what a court's going to do. So I'm not sure this is going to end up in court, that the final decision is going to be made by a court. But there are good arguments on both sides. The best argument on the side of the governor and the legislature is the fact that local

government units in Reedy Creek, or what was called Reedy Creek, is a local government unit, much like a city or a county. And they are the creatures of a state. State has the power to create and destroy, dissolve, merge local governments. They can do that. So if it's a question of whether the state has more power than a local government unit, I mean, there's no question there. But the best arguments that Disney have are constitutional arguments. As Sarah pointed out, the former CEO of Disney wrote a letter, he perceives that his business and Disney perceives

that its business, that its entity is being challenged for expressing itself. And conservatives have told us over the last couple of decades that corporations have constitutional rights. Well, one of those constitutional rights is the right to free speech. That's why we don't have to identify ourselves if we make large contributions to political campaigns. That's a right corporations have under the Constitution, under Citizens United. United. The other thing that conservatives are proud of is the fact that our courts and our legal system protect private property rights. And that's the other strong constitutional argument that Disney now has in its fight with the governor and the legislature. In that, yes, the state has the power to create and dissolve these local governments and to dissolve development agreements, but not if there are vested rights, vested property rights.

And Disney has some very strong arguments that it has vested property rights that a state cannot take away. take away. And there is state Supreme Court jurisprudence. There are cases that specifically say that the power of the state to act retroactively is null and void if it would negatively affect a vested right. And Disney has some really good arguments for vested rights. So know what have I told you? I've told you that the state has good arguments and the corporation has good arguments, legal arguments. That means it's going to be up to the courts. And that means if it goes to court, it could ultimately end up on the laps of the state Supreme Court, many of whose members were appointed by Governor DeSantis. And I do want to go to the phones.

We're getting a lot of calls about this. The number is 305-995-1800. That's 305-995-1800. I want to go to Charles calling from Jacksonville. Charles, thanks for calling the Florida Roundup. You're on. Hi, guys. Out Fox, Ron DeSantis.

I see what you did there, guys. I outfox Rhonda DeSantis. I see what you did there, Melissa. Oh, I didn't mean it that way, but thank you for giving me credit for wit and repartee. Go ahead. do is flex their economic muscle. Say, for example, they had a 30 to 60 day layoff of their employees, say, in a strategic time, a couple of months before, you know, an election or something like that. But if Disney could just say, hey, look how much economic, you know, they'd have a bunch of unhappy voters on their hand if they all missed their paychecks for a few weeks. But could Disney withstand the economics of it and the optics? But I would see that as a great way of fighting back. Thank you for the call, Charles.

Tricky thing. I mean no one wants to see layoffs. Let's be real. Tricky thing. I mean, no one wants to see layoffs. Let's be real. But Sarah, to Charles's point about the economic leverage that Disney does have over Florida, I mean, a state senator in North Carolina this week filed a bill there states that want to lure this kind of investment towards them and away from florida i mean what what's at stake if disney does at some point choose to to punch back economically well i don't realistically think that disney's going to pack up space mountain into crates and move it anywhere. It's a very complicated thing to move anything that big. And the reason they located in Florida in the beginning from the 1960s is that we're one of the places year round that isn't covered by snow. So what the real risk that I've assessed is that people need to look at the map. Disney owns 25,000 acres that stretch

across Orange and Osceola. The majority of that is preserved as green space, which was designed and intended by Walt Disney himself to create a buffer around all of the park and entertainment properties and hotels. When you are on Disney property, you are experiencing only what Disney wants you to experience. There's no other noise or competing, any sort of anything. But that giant parcel has become a massive environmental benefit for the state of Florida. It interacts with a lot of what we call the Florida Wildlife Corridor, which is key habitat for a lot of the species that we're concerned about. It's also that land is like the last sponge before water gets into the Everglades system. And again, one of the things, one of my

big arguments all the time for, hey, let's not knock down Reedy Creek. The extra tax money that Disney has been paying to the Reedy Creek Improvement District all this time has been used to maintain a higher environmental quality than any state or federal regulation would ask of them. The way they do their water treatment, the sewer, the fertilizers that they choose, all of that is keeping everything at a higher level. And we want that to continue. If Disney decides that, you know, DeSantis is term limited out, whether he runs for president or not, like there's a ticking time clock on how long he can be meddling with all this. But if they decide that this is part of a trend and Florida is not as business friendly as they previously thought it was, you know,

and they pause other development and they decide they don't need all that land that they have. It's some of the most valuable dirt on the planet. They can easily sell it off for massive profits. It'll get paved over immediately. Nobody else is going to pay to keep at the same level. And all of the property owners around that area should be very concerned, especially those that are downstream. In the last hurricanes, the water management districts communicated with the Reedy Creek Improvement District and asked them to hold back additional floodwaters. You know, we had flooding out by UCF and Seminole County that all lasted for weeks after those storms. There were a lot of areas in Osceola County, south of Disney, that did not flood because Reedy Creek was paying and taking in extra water and holding more water back. I've been told by one of my sources within Disney that Disney voluntarily flooded some of their own parcel to keep extra water back. So, you know, that's.

This is all fascinating. I knew you'd have so much great information on this, Sarah. Really important points there. Lots of tweets coming into the Florida Roundup. Here's one. A listener says, Disney, the Disney battle is a whopper of a mistake on the governor's part. But let us know what you think. Give us a call. Kathy in Sarasota. Hi, Kathy. Thanks for holding. Go ahead. a mistake on the governor's part. But let us know what you think. Give us a call.

Kathy in Sarasota. Hi, Kathy. Thanks for holding. Go ahead. You're on the radio. Hi. I love Disney. It's been since I was a little child. And actually, my stepdad and McCarthy here in Bradenton sold a great portion of that land to Disney. And I want it to stay like it is, not be built up and look like Miami Beach straight across the state. So I want that protected. However, I also want Disney to stay out of the bedroom. It's a place for little kids.

What the heck are they doing? Getting all up in arms about don't say gay when it involves five to eight year olds. That was their mistake too. So they better straighten it up. I know they have Friday and this and that, but that's enough. You understand? Yeah, Kathy, I appreciate your opinion. That's Kathy in Sarasota. By the way, Disneyland in California just announced another Pride event. So, Professor Wolf, you know, as you noted earlier, Professor Wolf, you know, as you noted earlier, Disney sent out a news release, basically a statement of their position on the legislation.

Disney CEO Bob Iger is saying that was their First Amendment right. But this is this is at the heart of it. Disney is advocating for their LGBTQ plus employees and customers. Aren't they with this kind of statement And he understands that some of the people who need to vote for him in order to get higher office feel the same way that the caller does. And so Disney found itself in a political bind because they didn't want to insult the leadership of the corporation, didn't want to insult part of its customer base and its employee base. On the other hand, they recognized that the state of Florida, the government state of Florida is very powerful. So initially they said nothing. They were silent and they were pressured. People pressured them to do in their eyes what was the right thing. It's all political. It's just a political battle. If it ends up in the courts, it becomes something else. It becomes something more meaningful because then it becomes an interpretation of the Constitution.

But at this point, it is 100 percent political. I think that is very fair to say. And if you're just tuning into the Florida Roundup, lots of people waiting on hold to discuss the escalating feud that ramped up yet again this week between Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Disney. If you've been following this or if you just have questions, you don't know much about it, we want to hear from you. We are live statewide right now here on the Florida Roundup from the peninsula to the panhandle. What do you think about this? We want your calls. It's 305-995-1800. You can tweet the show, too.

We see all of your tweets coming in. Send those to Florida Roundup. We'll try to get some of those on the air as we continue to talk about this with two fantastic guests. Sarah Rumpf, she is a contributing editor at Mediaite and an expert on the Reedy Creek, former Reedy Creek Improvement District at Disney, and Michael Allen Wolfe, professor of local government and property law at UF. More of your calls and tweets next here on the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. សូវាប់ពីបានប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្� Thank you. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami.

And I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. And I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. As we continue the conversation now with Sarah Rumpf of Mediaite and Michael Allen Wolfe, a law professor at UF. 305-995-1800. As we look at the governor's feud with Disney. What are your thoughts and comments? Ricardo holding in Gainesville. Hi, Ricardo. Go ahead. Hi. Thank you for having me.

I just wanted to say that I have been a Florida resident for over 40 years. My kids grew up in Disney and we go all the time. And I just got back from four days of wonderful time in the Magic Kingdom. And all I can say is that I believe that rather than, as our two speakers have pointed out, having distractionary and vengeful politics involved, our governor would be best serving the state of Florida and its people by focusing on issues that really matter, like flooding in South Florida and other issues. And I would just like to say that as a Florida resident,

I am very proud of what Disney has done for our state, and it is a wonderful place. We should not get into this kind of negative politics. All right, Ricardo. You know, Sarah Rumpf, as he pointed out, we did see record flooding in South Florida. And then following right upon that, widespread gas shortages in South Florida. The governor took criticism for being out of state, making appearances in conjunction with an expected presidential campaign in the midst of that crisis in South Florida.

that crisis in South Florida, we've seen Republican lawmakers in Tallahassee grumbling about this fight with Disney as well, saying they believe it's taking the focus off issues that are more important to their constituents. How is all of this criticism landing, do you think? Yeah, I mean, look, when I talk to friends and family members of all political persuasions, what we're actually concerned about right now is the property insurance costs, the people in southwest Florida who still are homeless from last year's storms. They got that bridge rebuilt in three, four days, whatever it was. But that was one of a million problems down there. The flooding down in Fort Lauderdale, the gas shortages. I mean, there are really real problems. We got another hurricane season that kicks off on June 1st.

And, you know, trying to pick this fight with Disney just seems absurd. For the caller earlier who criticized Disney's content. That is a valid opinion to have. And a lot of families feel that way. But we've got to think about, do we actually want government retaliating against content choices, free speech? The same criticism and the same government action could be levied against a church, a religious charity.

You know, this is the kind of thing that when you look at the scope of it and what this is really about, you can have a valid criticism of Disney and their content and still say this is wrong, this is absurd, and this is just too extreme. We've got, again, everybody knows we have no state income tax here. That's awesome. But that also means that we have to pay attention to how the other aspects of our state economy function. We need tourists to come here and spend money and, you know, pay for sales taxes and pay for gas taxes and the hotel and resort taxes and that tourist development tax that's on every hotel night, all of that. They're coming here for Disney. They're coming here for a week to go to Disney and then they tack on a day at the beach or so or a tack on a day at Universal and SeaWorld.

We know Disney's the driver of all that. And, you know, again, the Reedy Creek Improvement District is extra taxes that Disney's voluntarily paying. They're not cheating. They're not skimping out on their Orange and Osceola County taxes. They're paying the same percentage rate, the same millage rate as every other taxpayer in the county to both of those counties. And then they've been paying roughly the latest annual budget was $160 million. And that goes to all of the services and

infrastructure that they're managing on the disney property um as as a native floridian and a native orlando kid um i i don't want that toppled i don't want that meddled with the people that the governor appointed to the board to take over have no theme park experience no experience managing special taxing districts and their own public comments show a retaliatory intent that they're going to get Disney in line and make them, you know, make them comply and make them not be woke anymore. I mean, if, if the next Disney movie has a minor character that's gay, are they going to not approve a building permit? I mean, it just this is not how we want businesses to be meddled with by government. This is not how the free speech rights that we all enjoy in this country are supposed to be, you know, interfered with.

This is not something anybody should be cheering for. The number is 305-995-1800. I want to go to Scott calling from West Palm Beach. Scott, thanks for calling the Florida Roundup. You're on. Yeah. Hey, guys. Good afternoon. I just had two questions. One would be I know they're trying to micro legislate Disney passing bills that are just specifically for Disney. Will that stand up in court when they're trying to do, I guess, different things? I don't know all the details. up in court when they're trying to do, I guess, different things. I don't know all the details.

And then the second one is kind of a strange question. What's going on in this madman's mind? That's my two questions. Madman, I imagine you mean Governor DeSantis. Professor Wolfe, just bouncing off some of what Scott said, the governor's office has criticized this move from Disney to essentially retain some power and authority after the board shifted as a blatant effort to subvert the will of the people of Florida. And it also called it an 11th hour move. But the thing about doing something in the 11th hour is that it hasn't struck midnight yet. Right. Like you got the shut off before the buzzard. And to that point, this board did pass these changes in an open meeting with legal notices before the legislature actually passed this law

that changed the board structure. Is that right? Well, yeah. I mean, all of this was done legally. Disney's a major corporation. These are reputable public officials. I mean, there's no intimation that anybody is doing anything devious. And I would say that's true as well as, you know, the caller seems to be impugning the motives of the governor. But, you know, I just think we need evidence before we can we can call names in that way. Again, we can talk about how important I can talk about how important I think environmental protection is. I can talk about how important I think free speech rights are. But, you know, I don't get to run this country. And there are two sets of

views. And we know that. All we have to do is look at our elections over the past few decades, national elections. No, I might feel that the major issue facing the planet is climate change. But other people might feel the major issue facing the planet is grooming. I'm not going to, I might not share those views, but I have to acknowledge those views. So once again, it all comes back to politics. I mean, if the governor sees that concerns that people have about what they call grooming is going to get him higher office. And the same is true of the state legislature. Then they're going to go down that road because they know that there are a lot of voters who feel the same way. And we can talk all that

we want about flooding and gas prices and climate change and equity and rights. But if that's not the number one issue on the potential voters' mind, it doesn't make a difference because, again, the governor and the legislature, and by the way, the governor likes to talk about the will of the people. And I would like to point out that if you look at the number of people who voted for the governor, the percentage of people who voted for the governor in his first election, and compare the percentage of Democrats who serve in the state legislature right now, there's a gross disparity.

So when the governor talks about the will of the people, it's not necessarily the will of the people, it's not necessarily the will of the people. That is, we don't have a close to 50-50 split in state representation in Tallahassee. So if I do have a criticism for the governor, it is that he throws that term around too easily, and it's inaccurate. The legislature in Tallahassee is not necessarily reflecting the will of the people of the state of Florida. Professor Michael Allen Wolfe, a law professor at University of Florida, thank you so much for coming on, Professor Wolfe. And also joining us is Sarah Rumpf of Mediaite. Sarah, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. It would also direct the State University System's Board of Governors

to periodically review the mission of each school, including academic programs. Many students, faculty, and others are speaking out strongly against this bill, saying it would have a chilling effect and censor free speech on campus. At the same time, the state's parental rights and education law, what critics have called the don't say gay law, has been expanded to all grades this week. Previously, the law banned discussion on gender and sexual identity in grades K through three. Now it's K through 12, up to college level, essentially. Education Commissioner Manny Diaz Jr. said the new rule is meant to provide clarity

around confusion about the existing law. Here he is speaking at this week's State Board of Education meeting. We're not removing anything here. All we are doing is we are setting the expectations so that our teachers are clear that they are to teach to the standards. Let us know your thoughts on this one.

You can give us a call wherever you are in Florida at 305-995-1800 or tweet us at Florida Roundup. Joining us now to talk about this is Tampa Bay Times education reporter Jeffrey Solichek. Jeffrey, thanks for coming on. Thanks for asking. And also joining us is Jeremy Young. He's a senior manager of free expression and education at PEN America. Jeremy, thanks for coming on, too. Thanks for having me. So, Jeff, let's start with you on this one. The State Board of Education voted this week to adopt these new rules expanding the previous law about banning the teaching of sexual orientation or gender identity and expanding it to grades K through 12.

Can you tell us about the new guidelines? Like, what does that mean practically for students? Well, what it means, generally speaking, is that the teachers had problems understanding when it said you can't teach these things unless it's age appropriate. That wasn't the original law. They were confused, they said. And so this is supposed to clarify that. So now the schools are supposed to discuss in instruction, in lessons, only when you have a specific thing that's set forth in the state standards, like if you're doing human growth and development lessons, that is not supposed to influence the discussions that people have when they are asking questions or having a conversation and something comes up. That is not supposed to be what this

is about. It's supposed to be about instruction, but there's still confusion or concern that because the language is kind of vague still, and there aren't a lot of direct language points in this rule that say exactly what they mean. It says only when associated with the standards. And so there are going to be some questions still remaining and people are still kind of afraid about what they don't know. And just to clarify or put a point on it, the original law had language about something, you know, it has to be age appropriate. Did this expand that in some kind of way to say, well, it's all age inappropriate through 12th grade? Or is there more flexibility even within this confusion that remains to exist? It seems to me that they're saying that people didn't know what age appropriate meant. And so the state is saying age appropriate means

if it's in the standards, then you can have that be taught. Otherwise, they don't consider it to be age appropriate if it's something outside of that. They also have made it really clear that the goal has been to get people to talk about facts and not opinions. And so that's also going to play into this somewhat. And when does this new rule that was put into effect just this week, when does it go into effect? I believe they said it's 34 days later. So that would be right after the end of the school year in time for summer school. And does this new rule have any impact on the proposed legislation that is being heard by the legislature right now, which would ban instruction on sexual orientation or gender identity in grades K through eight?

Or does this kind of get ahead of that? It gets ahead of it, really. We've seen that a lot here in Florida, where the state board of education has jumped ahead of the legislature on things education has jumped ahead of the legislature on things like you shall not teach the 1619 project and critical race theory idea. The legislature hadn't done that. And then the state board did. And then later on, the legislature came in behind them. This time, the state legislature is only looking at K through eight and the state board jumped ahead of them and they went up through

grade 12. They're saying that they're just clarifying through rule what was already in law, but it still kind of looks like they're one step ahead. You're doing what the governor wants. They're all governor appointees. They're not elected officials and they're implementing through rule rather than waiting for the law. The number is 305-995-1800. I want to go to Molly calling from Lake Worth. Molly, thanks for calling. You're on. Hi. I called in because I am an LGBTQ therapist, and I have many transgender individual clients,

and I wanted to speak on the fact that having no access to gender-affirming care and affirming resources increases the trans suicide rate by over 70%. And so in some ways, like, this rule, it amounts to genocide. Whether or not it was intended as such, it's going to have results, and the results are going to be dead trans kids. Molly, we've been hearing that a lot from trans advocates. Jeremy Young, PEN America, you've been tracking a range of legislation around education in Florida and around the country. What are your thoughts about the new K-12 ban on these discussions and also HB 999? So HB 999. Well, the K-12 ban is, you know, it takes something that very censorious, banning discussion of LGBTQ identities in grades K through 3. But there are some poll numbers that suggest that that idea perhaps isn't all that unpopular to ban those discussions in those grades. It is very unpopular, however, to ban discussions of gender identity in high school, in middle school, to say that 17 year olds in 12th grade are not able to talk openly about gender identity.

This is very unpopular around the country and in Florida. So it's really surprising to see the law go, to see the policy, the rule go this far, as well as the law that would, you know, being debated that would extend those prohibitions in law through grades, through grade eight. And, you know, this is a trend for the Florida legislature this year, as we see in HB 999, this bill, which, which, you know, this is a trend for the Florida legislature this year, as we see in HB 999, this bill, which which, you know, really is one of the most draconian things we've seen in terms of higher education censorship anywhere in the country. And I know you've been you've been speaking about that for some time now. And I want you to hold that thought as we take calls in just a moment. Get on the line. It's the Florida Roundup, and we'll be right back. Thank you. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup.

I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. We're continuing our conversation on legislation affecting Florida's education from K-12 through college. We want to hear from you. Share your thoughts with us by calling 305-995-1800 or tweet us at Florida Roundup. And we're joined by Tampa Bay Times education reporter Jeffrey Solichek and Jeremy Young, who's a senior manager of free expression and education at PEN America. And I want to go straight to the phones. We have Hector calling from Oviedo. Hector, thanks for calling. You're on. Yeah, how are you? I

just had a comment and a question. Well, my comment is that we have the Florida Legislature moving very swiftly to enact these rules about education, on sexual orientation, and just kind of identity and things that I think can help children grow. And they will move fastly to ban anything that, you know, has anything to do with that. But we can't seem to move at all when it comes to firearm legislation or banning guns. They'll say, oh, you know, if you ban guns, the bad guys will find a way to figure out, you know, how to get guns. But, you know, if you have anything about education for these kids, they're ready to ban it. So they're using their own language against them.

And my question is, you have these charter schools which accept a lot of public funding and taxpayer money, and I was wondering if they also have to adhere to these standards. Thanks for the call, Hector. Jeremy, to that point, would charter schools be held to these same standards, or is this traditional public schools only? My understanding is that these requirements apply to all publicly funded schools, which would include charter schools. They do not apply to private institutions, at least not from these laws, but that they

would in fact apply to public schools. But perhaps Jeffrey could correct me if I'm wrong on that. There are a lot of things that charter schools don't have to do, but as far as I know, this is one of them that they do have to follow. 305-995-1800. Stephen in St. Pete. Hi, Stephen. Go ahead. You're on the Florida Roundup.

Yes. Number one, I'm 80 years old. I worked 55 years in education from kindergarten through college. And it seems to me this morning's discussion is missing the forest with all wading through the trees. What we see here is stuff that we used to condemn when China and Russia did it, namely the politicization of public education. We have ex-legislators being appointed as college presidents, commissioner of education. As a matter of fact, the last two commissioners of education have no backgrounds in education whatsoever. They're politicians put in by dissenters. They can't talk about race in schoolers. They can't talk about race in school anymore. They can't talk about gender identification. What basically it's coming down to

is whatever white supremacist people want, that's what's going to be discussed in schools. That's how schools are going to be run. And it's all a sign of politics taking over education in Florida. And that's not my notion of what democracy and education is all about. That's Stephen in St. Pete. Jeremy Young, Penn America, you're a free speech advocacy organization. Do you think free speech is being threatened in our school system? That seems to be the position your group has been taking for some time. That is the position that we take. And the truth is, you know, the governor's policies and

the policy of the Florida legislature really seem to be designed to make Florida the place where free speech and free expression go to die. And we are very concerned about some of the parallels the caller mentioned with, you know, the kind of particularly in the higher education realm, the bans being considered now in HB 999 are very similar to restrictions we've seen in Hungary, in Poland, in China, in Russia, in Brazil, in these sort of authoritarian regimes. So it's very concerning to see something like that happening in Florida. You know, I think that that bill was improved in the legislature this week, but it's still deeply, deeply concerning and deeply censorious. And that bill, HB 999, it would ban curriculum in higher education on theories that systemic racism is inherent in the U.S.

and it would also ban instruction and curriculum that says that these systemic issues led to social, political, or economic inequities in Florida. Jeremy, following up on that same bill, I mean, it would also fundamentally change tenure for professors in higher education in Florida. Can you briefly tell us a little bit about that and how something like that might have a ripple effect and actually impact things like recruitment and retention of professors in higher education here? So actually, in the Senate markup of the Senate equivalent of that bill, some of those tenure restrictions have been removed. That's probably the best thing that was done this week. But if they were to stay in place as they are in

the current House version of the bill, it would make it very difficult for universities to recruit faculty who expect to operate in an environment of intellectual freedom, where they're able to conduct their research and their teaching without fear of direct censorship from the government, without that protection that tenure provides, particularly with the other things in the bill, the other things going on in Florida, it would be very difficult for faculty to feel that they are protected in that way. Just a clarification on something that a caller mentioned that said the education commissioner now and the previous one had no education experience. The current education commissioner of Florida, Manny Diaz Jr., does have extensive education experience working for a major charter school company. Just wanted to get that in there. And you're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. As we take calls from across the state on legislation dramatically changing the educational landscape in Florida from K through 12 and on into college. Let us know your thoughts.

Elijah in Winter Garden. Hi, Elijah. How are you? Go ahead. Hi, how's it going? Doing great. Thanks. Thanks for Elijah. How are you? Go ahead. Hi, how's it going? Doing great, thanks. Thanks for calling. What are your thoughts? So first, just want to say, absolutely love NPR. Me and my mom listen to it all the time. So I am an alumni of a school in Central Florida, and every single year we have a Spirit Week.

Central Florida. And every single year we have a spirit week. And in that spirit week, it's a lot of dressing up, a lot of having fun. Usually dressing up is your favorite color or certain character. And every single year we would have gender swap day, which a lot of kids would actually look forward to. And this year, it suddenly disappeared off of spirit week and all of the kids who um this board of people think that they're protecting um were actually the most angry with um the banning of this gender swap day so they decided to do it anyway it was sort of they turned it into like a 80s throwback day and everyone was like, nope, we're not having it. We're going to have our gender swap day. And they had a lot of fun doing it. They were posting about it. I have a girlfriend who's still there.

She's a senior and she was just in a suit the whole day, drawing a mustache. All of her friends had so much fun. You know, when I was in high school, Elijah, we called it Sadie Hawkins Day, had so much fun. You know, when I was in high school, Elijah, we called it Sadie Hawkins Day. But I guess I'm dating myself. Yeah, I mean, I graduated last year, but still seeing them. I'm in this I'm in a film program with a lot of them who are still in there, a lot of really good friends. And they're just all doing an amazing job sort of fighting a good fight and letting them know what matters to them and what's important. All right. Yeah. School board there. They're not listening to the kids who they're trying to protect. K through 12. That's crazy. Right. Eighteen year old getting controlled like that. Elijah, I appreciate the call. Jeremy Young, Penn America, you know, across the country, we are seeing Gen Z rise up.

Gen Z rise up. There's, in fact, walkouts happening in Florida across the state at high schools and colleges as young people are walking out of class and protesting these educational changes in Florida schools and universities. The youth, this generation, Gen Z, they're not on board. I think it's an understatement to say with all of these changes. And I'm getting a bit off topic, but also they they're protesting gun violence in schools. Only two minutes left. Jeremy Young, your final thoughts. some evidence for it, that young people are less supportive of free expression than their older colleagues, their older peers. But, you know, what we're seeing in Florida today, I think, really puts the lie to that idea in a very important way. Young people are standing up. They are speaking out on behalf of free expression in educational settings. It's very inspiring to see, and we encourage them to keep it up. Yeah, you know, and as I mentioned, Danny, these walkouts are happening this afternoon across the state. We'll have to follow that because we're on the air, so I have no idea

how many people will be coming out. But these events happening statewide are dubbed walkout to learn. Hundreds of school walkouts planned to protest the governor's education policies. More on that probably next week and over the weekend as we talk about these issues. But, you know, it's been great to have you both on the show because you're both so good in highlighting what's at stake in Florida when it comes to K-12 education and higher education. Jeremy Young, he is senior manager of free expression and education at PEN America. They are a free speech and literary advocacy group. And Jeffrey Solichek of the Tampa Bay Times covering education here in Florida.

Jeffrey, just a second left. You said there have been more changes to these bills, and I'm sure we can expect more in the next week or two. Oh, there's things happening. This is the time of year where it's the silly season. We never know what's going to happen until they drop that hanky at the end of the session. But it's happening. There's more to come. And you get you get a few days off when they drop the hanky. So I bet you're looking forward to that. Very much so. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jeffrey Solichek, Tampa Bay Times and

Jeremy Young, Penn America. Guys, have a great weekend. Thanks for spending some time with us here on the show today, this Friday. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Florida, for listening. That is our show. This is the Florida Roundup, produced by WJCT Public Media in Jacksonville and WLRN Public Media in Miami. Heather Schatz, Bridget O'Brien, and Natu Tway are show producers. WLRN's Vice President of Radio and our technical director is Peter Mayers. Engineering help from Doug Peterson, Charles Michaels, and Isabella Da Silva. Richard Ives answers the phones. Our theme music is provided by Miami jazz guitarist Aaron Libos at AaronLibos.com.

Ibn Mubarak for all who celebrate. I'm Danny Rivero. And I'm Melissa Ross. Thanks for calling, listening, and tweeting, and have a.com. Ibn Mubarak for all who celebrate. I'm Danny Rivero. And I'm Melissa Ross. Thanks for calling, listening and tweeting and have a great weekend.