The Florida Roundup - Free speech after Charlie Kirk’s death, Florida and California on immigration

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Floridians have come under public pressure for social media posts about the killing of Charlie Kirk (00:00). Then, we checked in with Samantha Putterman with PolitiFact to talk about the role that the FCC has in governing speech in broadcasts (15:02). And later, we partnered up with our colleagues at KQED in San Francisco to talk about how California and Florida have responded to the Trump administration’s immigration enforcement tactics (19:30); NPR’s immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd also joined the conversation.

The Florida Roundup is sponsored by Covering Florida Navigator program, providing confidential assistance with health insurance enrollment through the health insurance marketplace. Assistance is available at 877-813 or coveringflora.org. This is the Florida Roundup. I'm Tom Hudson. Great to have you along this week. We're going to tackle two big topics that are the source of a lot of disagreement, a lot of discontent, and some disinformation. We're going to talk about immigration and free speech. Now, we're going to have a civil, if sometimes uncomfortable conversation with each other. We want to hear differing opinions, certainly.

We want to listen to each other's beliefs. And we also are going to stay focused on the facts that lead to those ideas, why we believe something. In about 20 minutes on our program, we're going to connect with colleagues in San Francisco to have a cross-country conversation between two states about immigration and the very different responses the states have had. Governor Ron DeSantis has led the charge to fulfill. President Donald Trump's immigration enforcement policies. Meanwhile, Marines were sent to California without authorization from Governor Gavin Newsom. So we're going to have a live simulcast with public radio partners in California about the differences

and how the two states have responded to immigration enforcement tactics. So think forward here. What do you think about the Sunshine States' strategy of embracing the crackdown? And what about California's more hands-off approach? You can email us, your thoughts, your questions, radio, at the Florida Roundup.org. We are monitoring the inbox right now, live across the state,

radio at the Florida Roundup.org. But first, let's talk about talking, speech, words. Teachers, a local politician, the owner of a fish market, all have come under public pressure in Florida over the past week for social media posts about the killing of Charlie Kirk.

Accountability or censorship? How much of what you think and why you think it is fueled by an algorithm and not by you as an individual. 305-995-1800. Our phones are open right now, 305-995-1800, or you can also send us an email, Radio at the Florida Roundup.org. Now, Wednesday this week was Constitution Day. It commemorates the original signing of the Constitution by the delegates to the Constitutional Convention. It would be three years before the Bill of Rights was added to that document, though.

and topping that list of the new rights protections against government interference in five freedoms, and one of those is speech. More than 230 years later, here we are, and we're still having a national conversation about what freedom of speech means, where are the limits, and how do we practice it. There is a difference between free speech guaranteed in the Constitution and the consequences of the words that we use, who gets canceled, who gets criticized, and for what? I'll let you know that I'll be quoting some social media posts here to provide context, so we all have a basis of understanding,

and some of those posts may include language that you don't like, or you find offensive. One of the founding principles of this program when we started it almost 10 years ago was to be a listening post for all of Florida, to hear different opinions across the state about the issues that tie us all together across the Panhandle and the Peninsula. And, like in the Bill of Rights, speech is that first one. So reactions on social media to the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk have led to calls for a local councilman in Florida to resign, have led to a university doctor fired, and have led to several public school teachers falling under investigation. Governor Ron DeSantis defended the state investigating teachers over their social media posts.

No one's saying the government's going to put you in jail for doing that, but I do think it's a problem. Is that someone you want teaching your kids when they say that this is something this assassination should be celebrated? Of course not. Last week, the Florida Department of Education told teachers they could lose their jobs or licenses if they posted content celebrating Kirk's death on social media. The Florida Education Association's president, Andrew Spar, says the policies and investigations are having an impact on educators, both financially and emotionally. There's definitely a feeling that people are out to get other people right now, and that's not who we are as a country, I don't believe, and that's not who we should be as Floridians or as educators. Now, Florida's education commissioner, Anastasios Camuzas, sent a letter to Florida superintendents, writing, quote, although educators have First Amendment rights, these rights do not extend without limit into their professional duties. I'm hopeful that we put an end to these inappropriate statements.

He spoke with Florida's voice this week, which describes itself as Florida's number one conservative news source. As these statements go viral through social media, that is inevitable. These children are going to see that their teacher has these opinions. And when those personal views insert a public educational institution, that's a problem. When does a teacher's social media post on his or her personal page insert into their professional capacity into the classroom in Florida. Leon School Superintendent, Leon County School Superintendent, Rocky Hanna says the State Department of Education has become what he called the Gotcha Police.

They're constantly looking at social media posts, looking at newspaper clippings, and calling just to try to put either me in a compromising position as superintendent or our teachers, a compromised position as classroom teachers, and it's just, it's done called for. And there's, and there's no reason for it. And change can't come soon enough. That's in the K-12 public school system. The chancellor of the state university system, Ray Rodriguez, wrote to university presidents,

quote, while the right to free expression is paramount, it is not absolute. Celebrating or excusing campus violence, and in this case, the killing of Charlie Kirk, by members of our university system, will not be tolerated, end quote. Taking your phone calls about this at 305-995-1800.

May has been listening in Orlando. Go ahead. on the radio. Hey, thanks for having me. Honestly, I think this crackdown on speech is pretty cynical and clearly politically motivated. It's an excuse to go after political opponents. You know, when Democratic Representative Melissa Hortman, her husband and her dog were murdered in Minnesota, or when Paul Pelosi was attacked with a hammer in his own home,

we've had Fox News and the Florida Republicans making light of those events. Florida Sheriff's joke about killing protesters' graveyard dead and people getting sent to the Everglades concentration camp. But now one far-right propaganda gets murdered and suddenly making light of violence is intolerable. Give me a break. May, thanks for sharing your voice to the conversation. Greg is in Sarasota. Greg, it's your turn.

You're on the radio now. Hi, thank you. So I think that by relabling cancel culture as consequence culture, the Republicans have once again been able to manipulate the American language to their advantage. They do it all the time. and they always seem to best the Democrat in that regard. Greg, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. 305-995-1800. You can send us a quick email as well,

radio at theflordoroundup.org. We are talking about talking, listening to each other, about the words we use, free speech, consequence. As one caller we just heard there, moving from cancer culture to consequence culture. Well, in South Florida, in Palmetto Bay, Councilman Steve Cody is under pressure to step down because of what he posted on social media after Charlie Kirk's killing. Cody's comment referred to a quote by Kirk from 2023 when he said gun deaths were necessary collateral to preserve Second Amendment firearms protections.

The councilman after Kirk's death called the killing a quote fitting sacrifice. The councilman Cody deleted that post a day later. He spoke with NBC6 television in South Florida. I regret because it was insensitive. I do think that it, there's a certain bit of irony in it, but it caused a lot of pain for people I know and people that I respect. Congressman Carlos Jimenez represents the congressional district next to Palmetto Bay, and he's among the Republican leaders calling for Cody to quit.

You know the freedom of speaks to say, you're not going to go to jail for it, but you're going to lose your job for it. Let's hear from Kate in Orlando. Go ahead, Kate. You are on the radio now. Hi, my name is Kate, and this is my 40th year in education in Florida. I'm also educated in Florida. And I stand on, we all know where we are.

We don't need to explain why we are. Although I think defining what celebration is, as opposed to simply commenting on, is critical in this. And I would say I stand on my First Amendment right over my teaching certificate. It's that important thing. Kate, thank you for teaching for 40 years here in Florida. And thank you for lending your voice to our conversation. There's a neurologist at the University of Miami Medical School who was fired for what she said on social media. The university said it, quote, regrets unacceptable public commentary.

Three professors at Florida Atlantic University are on administrative leave, including an art history. professor, an English professor, and a professor of finance. FAU professor Reble Cole is the finance professor. He said on social media that he's being investigated for what he says was his response to an anonymous post celebrating Kirk's killing. That original post said, quote, we got

Charlie in the neck, end quote. Cole wrote several replies from his personal social media account, including quote, we are going to hunt you down and identify you, end quote. There's the story of a woman who owns a fish market in Melbourne who apologized after her social media post

that included some expletives and, quote, sorry, not sorry after the killing. The mayor of Melbourne visited that store a day later, said he would support the business and also said he was going to propose renaming the street in front of the store in honor of Charlie Kirk. The mayor posted his visit

and the idea on Facebook, the first comment on the mayor's post read, quote, you can stuff your sorries in a sack, end quote. It should be pointed out, and I'm going to point it out, that all of these examples include messages posted on social media. Social media platforms have taken a much more hands-off approach to moderating user comments since coming under pressure by President Donald Trump and Governor DeSantis for removing some messages of users during the COVID-19 pandemic. President Trump made this pledge in his inaugural address back in January.

After years and years of illegal and unconstitutional federal efforts to restrict free expression, I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government's censorship. and bring back free speech to America. Later that day, he signed an executive order that said, quote, government censorship of speech is intolerable in a free society. Trump, remember, was kicked off some social media platforms four years earlier days after the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol. Now, since the Kirkkilling, supporters of the president say people facing consequences for their speeches not government censorship.

Randy Fine is a Republican congressman from the Palm Coast area, and he spoke to Fox News. People have no right to a government job. They have no right to a government contract. They have no right to a government license. These are privileges. And when you go out and celebrate an attack on the United States, you should be ejected from working for anything having to do with it. Kirk then went on to ask his constituents to make him aware of people in government roles

who, quote, are celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. Andy has been patient on line one from Seminole County. Go ahead, Andy. great to hear from you're on the radio now hey i appreciate and i appreciate the discussion but i think the left is being a little bit hypocritical on this issue wasn't it just a few short years ago where teachers and people were being fired and docks for attending january 6th united the right and other nationalist events so conservatives and nationalists were being fired right and left a few years ago i didn't hear much complaint

from the left on this issue when that was happening Andy, thank you for your perspective there from Seminole County. Much appreciated it. Aaron sent us this note. I am not sure how much the algorithm directly tells us what to think or brainwashes us, but it definitely creates an echo chamber and deprives us of both sides of arguments that can constructively guide our opinions and views. The Attorney General of the United States, Pam Bondi, who used to be the top lawyer here

in the state of Florida, said this week that the Department of Justice would target anyone using what she called hate speech. A day later, she clarified that she was talking about hate speech that incites violence. And it is an important distinction between speech and speech directed toward violence and likely to lead to what the Supreme Court has called in its case, in its judgment, imminent, lawless action. Let's hear from Santa Rosa Beach in the Panhandle. David is on line five.

Go ahead, David. Thank you for having me. I'm the worst of the guilt because I'm a... centrist. I live in deep red territory, and I'm ambivalent at this point because it is a race to the bottom. Caller just mentioned how liberals were doing the docksy campaigns in the cancel culture, and this is the other side of that coin, and so it's really ironic the hypocrisy currently going on with, you know, as you played, the clip of Trump touting a return to free speech so long as it's speech that they like. But now liberals are feeling the sting of exactly

what unfortunately they had been guilty of because there is some merit to the fact that free speech doesn't guarantee you those privileges of, you know, freedom from consequence in the professional spirit. I dare not speak my mind where I live because I like being able to pay for my health care insurance and feed my kids, even though I am deep in quote unquote enemy territory. So I see both sides and I feel absolutely paralyzed as to what a way forward is. And I just don't really see one anytime soon, sort of a fix-on-fault type of catastrophe. So I don't see things getting any better. I don't hear anything from anybody that shows a pragmatic way forward for an entire population that is at each other's throats. But on a day-to-day basis, you'd never know

it here in my community. Yeah. Because we're also really nice to each other on our daily interaction. Yeah. We're face-to-face in person, in real life. Hopefully we're much more civil to one another. David, I appreciate you lending voice there from the Panhandle in Santa Rosa Beach. This week has brought forth a government agency that touches all Americans by regulating broadcasting, but it might not be that well known, the Federal Communications Commission. From Hollywood, it's Jimmy Kimmel Live with Clino and the Cleeto. And now, Jimmy Kimmel. Except it wasn't. Wednesday night, Kimmel's late night program was put on indefinite hiatus after his monologue earlier in the week. Attracted criticism from the chairman of the FCC, which regulates

broadcasters. Chairman Brendan Carr accused Kimmel of lying about the beliefs of the accused shooter of Charlie Kirk. Carr said the FCC was looking at remedies. Then a local major television operator said it would take Kimmel off the air on the stations it owned. The ABC Network pulled the plug and the major TV owner involved is hoping to buy another company that deal needs FCC approval. Let's sort through fact from fiction with Samantha Putterman, reporter for Politifact, Florida who's been looking into the FCC and what it can and cannot do. Sam, welcome back to the program. Hi, thanks for having me.

What is the central question about the FCC and ABC's decision to stop Kimmel's weeknight program? Yeah, so the FCC, I mean, at first, as you had mentioned, you know, the chair told the podcaster before ABC pulled Kimmel, right, that the FCC had an obligation to operate in the public interest and then said, you know, we can do this the easy way or the hard way that made people really feel like the FCC was pressuring ABC and Disney to pull Kimmel, which they did. But the real question is about, you know, whether Kimmel did he break any.

FCC rule as, you know, Brendan Carr kind of made or alluded to. Yeah, he alluded to it by talking about the public interest authority of the Federal Communications Commission. What is that? Right. So basically, he talks about this in a few different interviews about that there are certain broadcasters that have an obligation to the public interest to their communities. And that does seem to be legitimate. They do talk about on the FCC website, though, however, how the FCC kind of threads a different needle when it comes to what they can mandate, what they

can't, what can be said, what can't be said. And so, for instance, the FCC constraints on broadcasters, those typically involve, you know, topics identified by Congress or adopted by the FCC through rulemaking. And in Kimmel's case, the FCC rule that Carr cited multiple times was news distortion. Yeah, what is that? Right. So the FCC says that news distortion, there's a distinction, right, between deliberate distortion, it says, and inaccuracies and differences of opinion. So broadcasters are only subject to this enforcement if it can be proven that they deliberately distorted a factual news report. The biggest problem with that is that legal expert said that, you know, it overlooks a few

different topics. So Jimmy Kimmel Live runs out of ABC's entertainment division, not its news division. And then it's also complicated to argue that Kimmel was knowingly sharing inaccurate information about the alleged Kirk shooter when a lot of the charging documents that officially laid out his background had not yet been released. Right, right. So this may sound like an odd question given that I am a broadcast journalist, but what are the limitations on broadcast license holders? Yeah. So for instance, like they are, it has to do with

specific things. So for instance, they have a pretty good list besides news distortion. The other ones are in decency and obscenity, commercial content in children's programming, sponsorship identifications, the conduct of on-air contests. They're pretty wide ranging where the FCC can, there's regulatory powers. But also, they're not a blank check. And it doesn't generally come into the fact when regulating content, you know, on broadcast TV. It's a very specific instances. Samantha Putterman separating fact from fiction with our news partner, PolitiFact, Florida, here on the FCC and Jimmy Kimmel story.

Samantha, thanks so much for sharing your reporting with us. Thanks for having me. If you have something that you would like PolitiFact, just send us an email, Radio at the Florida Roundup.org. Radio at the Florida Roundup.org. We're happy to put it to Sam and her team at our news partner, Politifact, Florida. Coming up, we're going to talk about immigration. Two states, two very different responses to President Donald Trump's enforcement of immigration laws.

We're going to connect with colleagues live in San Francisco and have a cross-continent conversation. What do you want to know about the California experience with immigration enforcement? Call us now 305-995-1800. I'm Tom Hudson. This is The Florida Roundup from your Florida Public Radio Station. The Florida Roundup is sponsored by covering Florida Navigator. program providing confidential assistance with health insurance enrollment through the health insurance marketplace.

Assistance is available at 877-813-915 or covering Florida.org. We're back on the Florida Roundup. I'm Tom Hudson. We're going to connect with Forum on KQED and Alexis Madrigal talking about immigration. Call us at 305-995-1800. Well, hello, Alexis, great to connect with you again. Hey, Tom, great to talk with you. Thanks so much for doing this. And I think, you know, we were just talking about it on our show, Immigration, the State of California. Give us, like, you know, your perspective right now on how the immigration debate is going in Florida. Well, you know, it's a loud debate that we're having in Florida, as perhaps you have heard all the way out in California, particularly as Governor DeSantis and the Republican-dominated legislature has really embraced President Trump's immigration enforcement strategy. perhaps most notably Alexis Alligator Alcatraz, the so-called detention facility really made up mostly of tents and trailers that was stood up in the middle of the Everglades over the course of just a matter of a few days. Now that has been winding down, but there was an old state prison that's been opened up and converted into a deportation facility as well. So it's been a very loud debate, very present conversation and debate that we've had here certainly in Florida for the past many, many months.

How about in California? Well, you know, I think the big story here was definitely the ice raids down in Los Angeles. And I'm sure people saw images of that, of both the raids themselves, the troops that were then stationed in Los Angeles, the activists and protesters. One of the interesting things here is just how different, you know, the part of the state where KQED is located up in the Bay Area has felt, I think, from Los Angeles, which really experienced most of the major images. PACs and immigration enforcement. And the big question for us up here, I think, is why that is. We're not exactly sure. And I think even immigration advocates, you know, state legislators and all these folks are kind

of still curious and it may be, you know, that it's about the lack of detention facilities that they have in Northern California, but no one's really sure. You know, Jasmine Gards is also with this, Alexis, the immigration correspondent for NPR, host of the last cup looking at soccer and the immigrant experience. Jasmine, great to have you again. Like with Alexis and I, other parts of the country, across the continent, how do these, how do our two states really reflect the range

of how the 48 other states have been responding to the immigration enforcement question? Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about both states because I think they're really meaningful. I have spent the last two years, traveling throughout Florida and talking to immigrant communities

and reporting on different policies by Governor Ronde-Dissantis. And, you know, the reason I focus so much on Florida is because I think Florida is like a testing grounds for national immigration policy. It's like a blueprint. Nothing happens in Florida in an isolated manner.

And this isn't just me like a conjecture. You know, this really is, the administration itself has said, you know, with something like Alligator Alcatraz, this is a model that we want to pursue in Indiana, in Nebraska. So if you want to understand where we're heading in terms of immigration policy, you should be looking towards Florida.

You know, and Alexis, to build upon exactly what, Jasmine's talking about is, and it started well before Alligator Alcatraz, right, Jasmine? I mean, we saw the state legislature, the state law, past state laws, state immigration laws. Immigration, right, is a federal responsibility, not necessarily a state responsibility, but we saw over the course of a couple of years, Florida lawmakers, with a supermajority of Republicans in Tallahassee, passed a couple of different kind of state immigration laws. The most consequential one was passed most recently after the re-election of Donald Trump to be president, which essentially created a state crime for someone without legal status to knowingly cross into Florida or knowingly be in Florida. So what was the impact there?

Well, lawsuits, right? It wound up in the court system before it wound up being enforced. The short story is a federal judge in Miami put a temporary injunction in enforcing it. The state appealed. It went all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said, no, the injunction stands. So right now, that is an unenforceable state law currently. Yeah.

You know, one of the other big issues that I feel like is a major in Florida. Maybe Jasmine, this starts with you, is just the stripping of legal immigration status from people from particular countries. Haiti, Venezuela, you know, what has happened with that? Like, how has it actually played out on the ground? I mean, we have kind of a similar type situation in some of our Vietnamese communities here in the Bay Area, but not exactly the same. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the goalposts kind of keep moving here, right? I mean, initially there was this campaign promise of, you know, we're going to go after the worst of the the worst, the criminals, the rapists, even Hannibal Lecter was brought up at some point, the

cannibals. And this was, you know, this very bombastic promise during the presidential campaign. And then the goalpost moved to undocumented. And, you know, what we've seen in the last couple of months is also people having TPS removed, right? We've seen an attack on a And, you know, right now, one of the stories I'm working on is the sheer amount of immigrants I have spoken to who are making emergency plans for, in case of deportation, what their U.S. citizen children should do. And something really interesting that I've spoken to lawyers about is that they're advising that not just undocumented people do this, that people with TPS with asylum. And even when it comes to ICE raids, we are seeing people who have DACA, who have an asylum process and legal paperwork being picked up in these raids. So to answer your question, these goalposts, they keep widening. And exactly, Jasmine, to what she's saying here, what we've seen in Florida with these immigration status between temporary protected status, humanitarian parole that was granted.

for people coming in from four countries, including Cuba, Haiti, and Venezuela and Nicaragua, that immigration advocacy groups have put together kind of packages for people with legal status under these visa programs so that their kind of houses are in order should those protections be removed and or should they be caught up in a deportation situation. It's fascinating to see, and we've seen it certainly in our, in South Florida, with a large percentage of, you know, foreign-born residents, but we've seen it across the state as the federal enforcement has gained some steam here. You know, a listener from KQED, Mary writes in to say, how has all this ice stuff affected Florida agriculture? As a person who was raised in the California Central Valley and spent some teenage years working on farms, I really, think we don't support our farm workers the way we should.

Tom, maybe I'll route this to you. Yeah, I mean, seasonal work is enormous, particularly in South Florida and in Central Florida. You know, I don't know if you know this, but if you get kind of a fern, if you get a nursery plant sometime in the springtime, odds are, it may have come from South Florida, right? And if you're needing squash in the northeast in March and April, that certainly was planted in the soil in Dade County, probably. But then you've got strawberries and sugar cane, of course. So it's an enormous workforce that's incredibly important for agriculture in South Florida. And in 2023, as Jasmine knows about and has reported, the state legislature put a new E-Verify program in, which required companies with at least 25 employees to use E-Verify. And what we heard in the agriculture community is that the industry really was preparing before that law came into place to make sure.

that the workers had the proper visas and those who didn't show up for the seasonal work, Jasmine. Yes. You know, it takes some time to see the economic impacts of policy, but most economists, I've spoken to, pretty much all economists I've spoken to, have said, you know,

Americans are going to feel the impact of these policies. And so, you know, when it comes to agriculture, You know, as of August, in the last four months, agriculture employment in the U.S. has fallen by 155,000 workers. That is the biggest dip in nearly a decade. And one of the things I focused on in Florida is talking to, you know,

fruit farmers about how this has impacted them. I have spoken to farmers who have told me that they are decreasing their strawberry production. production, that's Central Florida, produces a lot of strawberry, 30% and who have told me, you know, strawberries are on their way to becoming a luxury item. And so that impact is going to be felt. I think something really interesting also when I'm traveling through these agricultural areas is talking to farmers who support the president, who identify as, you know, MAGA supporters, who in hushed tones told me it feels like this has gone too far.

We feel that the governor, Governor Ronda Santos has taken this a little too far, but are also worried that if they speak up about that, there's going to be a repercussion. Yeah, and we've seen it in the agriculture community. We've seen the construction industry in Florida, right? The story of Florida is the story of agriculture and real estate development. There was a raid in Tallahassee in late May, Alexis, where over a hundred construction workers were detained and arrested by ICE officials. And anecdotally, I've had construction and real estate development contacts tell me about how difficult it is to find crews of people here. And there's a mirror kind of image of this out in California, I think, right?

Certainly in the Central Valley with the agriculture industry there. Sure, sure. And I mean, you know, one of the comments coming in from a listener on Instagram is the reason, and this is a listener and KQD listener, the reason they aren't raiding in Northern California is the wine harvest. Many wineries and vineyards are owned by the rare Republicans here and dollars to donuts that once the grapes are harvested, the raids will start. Kevin has another kind of question, another KQD listener says, I hear some farmer support removing undocumented immigrants with the idea that a guest worker program will provide needed workers who are documented. I often hear there are farm labor shortages, but rarely hear California and national guests discussing guest worker programs. I wonder how farm labor shortages and guest worker programs play into the discussion in Florida about removals and crackdowns. Great question. Yeah. Kevin's very wise, astute listener. I mean, right, Jasmine? I mean, this, that program, the guest worker program, that visa program really was front and center, certainly during the

E-Verify debate about expanding E-Verify. verify to companies of 25 workers or more. And it also, right, you can hear the loophole just even in that discussion. The company has 24 employees and thus doesn't have to do the E-Verify. But agriculture is a strong, strong lobby in Florida, and there's a number of sugarcane growers, one particular sugarcane grower who's a strong Republican legislature who has talked about the guest worker program really as the solution to this debate between undocumented immigration and the need for farm and ag labor.

Hmm. Hmm. Is it changing the politics at all there, Jasmine? I mean, there's clearly pushback from some of the growers and immigrant communities in Florida have changed. But is that translating into any changes on a political level yet? I haven't seen that. What I've seen is in very hushed tones, people who voted for DeSantis, for the governor, and for President Donald Trump in hushed tones, behind closed doors. I didn't think they were going to take my neighbor, or this is hurting my bottom line. I haven't seen it translate into a shift politically. But to the point about the visa system, you know, most farmers I spoke to told me that they feel kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The visa, the H-2A visa, the agricultural visa, the price of it is rising. It keeps rising. It is expensive, and so they feel like, you know, I can't get more H2A visa workers, but also, you know, I can't keep hiring undocumented workers because there's a crackdown.

I will also say as a caveat that, you know, a lot of advocates raise the alarm on the reliance on sort of a Bracero 2.0 program. The Brissero program was the Mexican guest worker program, which, you know, it was deeply exploitative and filled with atrocious human rights violations. And so there is a lot of concern about are we, you know, is the move, it seems like there's two roads that this could go down, right? Either this administration is actually serious about, you know, American workers are going to go out there into the fields and pick strong. strawberries, which, you know, most farmers I've spoke to have said that is a laughable concept. Or it's the kind of a Bracero 2.0 program, which advocates are understandably quite concerned about. Let me just remind the folks in Florida that you are listening to the Florida Rundup from your Florida Public Radio Station.

All right, guys, we've got a couple of emails here from our Florida listeners. One, who is a regular emailer, Terry and Melbourne. Great to hear from you, Terry. Thanks for your note. She wrote, immigration is a federal responsibility. I hate seeing my tax money in Florida paid out for this kind of purpose. And then we also got a note from Chris who says, I'm not a fan of Alligator Alcatraz, not a fan of Governor DeSantis

to the Republican Party's response and rhetoric, not a fan of gerrymandering. I don't feel represented in Florida. If I could afford to move, I would. Chris says, I'm not as informed about California, but fine with immigrants being here who are working and abiding by laws, who came here with expectation that eventually there would be path to citizenship. I respect the response by Governor Newsom in California that he didn't want federal help, or as Chris says in parentheses, interference. Yeah. You know, it's interesting,

Governor Newsom, he has not been out front in quite the way that you might expect. I mean, immigration has long been kind of a complex issue for him. On the other hand, he really has you know, held the line with Democrats in the, in the legislature here in California, in Sacramento. And I think, you know, as we heard earlier, KQD listeners heard earlier, he has been pretty strong on this. Alexis, we're going to break away for just a couple minutes, take care of business, but we'll be right back. You are listening to a special Florida Roundup from your Florida Public Radio Station. We're connecting with colleagues and listeners and neighbors from across the country in San Francisco. with our partner KQED talking about immigration and the response in Florida and the response

in California, very different responses to President Trump's immigration enforcement policies. Folks can send us an email. We are reading our inbox as they come in. Radio at the Florida roundup.org. Radio at the Florida Roundup.org. We'd also love to take your phone calls at 305-995-1800. 305-9-9-5-1800. Coming up, we're going to talk about the impact of the immigration enforcement policies on local law enforcement here in Florida, who is responsible for what enforcement and how they are, how those rules of immigration are enforced by local police and sheriffs. We're also going to hear more about the experience in California about the immigration enforcement strategies. 305-955-1800, your phone number, our phone number, for you to call us. on the Florida Roundup. More to come.

The Florida Roundup is sponsored by Covering Florida Navigator Program, providing confidential assistance with health insurance enrollment through the health insurance marketplace. Assistance is available at 877-813-93115 or Coveringflora.org. This is the Florida Roundup. I'm Tom Hudson. Great to have you along this week. Next week on our program, the incredibly tragic story of the El Faro. The cargo ship sank almost 10 years ago after sailing from Jacksonville into Hurricane Joaquin. It's a story of how a captain,

a company, and a culture contributed to the disaster and what the maritime industry can learn from it, what it's done, and what it has not done in the 10 years since that's sinking. That is coming up next week here on the Florida Roundup. This week, we're speaking across the continent with colleagues in California on forum.

It's a program on the air live on KQED in San Francisco, connecting Floridians and Californians talking about immigration enforcement in our respective states. All right, Alexis, we are back with Alexis in San Francisco and Jasmine, immigration reporter at NPR. You know, one of the things, Jasmine,

that we've really seen here in Florida and you've reported on is the involvement of local police in immigration enforcement. And I think this, Alexis, really was the first very vocal, very loud kind of debate and I suppose wake-up call for many Floridians about the Trump enforcement platform here. As Governor DeSantis here in Florida

and other Republican leaders really embraced the immigration enforcement strategies, the involvement of local law enforcement happened fairly quickly. But on the federal side, it has certainly brought up questions here. And Jasmine, I wanted to ask you about kind of where things sit in terms of legal opinions about enforcement of the laws and the behavior and the process about how ICE has been enforcing laws? Yeah, you know, we were talking earlier about what we can learn from what's happening on Florida and what we can learn from California, you know, from the case of Los Angeles. What we saw is that there was in this summer following, you know, heavy ice presence.

and we all saw the images of ICE operations, federal court orders that you cannot detain people based on race and on ethnicity. And that was reversed, I should say, temporarily, but the Supreme Court reversed it a couple of weeks ago saying that, yes, ICE agents can consider race, ethnicity, language. They can consider speaking with an accent and also profession. You know, if you are a worker hanging out outside of a Home Depot, all these are factors that can be

considered during an ICE operation. It is temporary. It only applies to Los Angeles, but it really sends a signal. It is really a tone shift that people should be paying attention to, especially as we are seeing, you know, conducting similar operations now in Chicago and in Washington, D.C. So I think, you know, if you want to look towards the direction we're heading with these enforcement actions, what has happened in Los Angeles is a very important place to look towards. David has been listening to us, guys, in Port St. Lucy, on the east coast of Florida. David, thanks for your time. time. You're on the radio.

Oh, thank you. Thanks for not publishing my name. I don't want the Department of Justice coming after me. But I disagree with the Trump policy and immigration. I think the ICE people should take off their masks and leave the people that are employed and picking crops, leave them alone and ask President Trump if you like to go pick strawberries for a couple hours. That's all. David, appreciate that voice there from Port St. Lucie. A little tongue in cheek there, but a lot of seriousness there, and David, you can hear in Florida, you know. You know, in a state legislature here in California actually just passed a bill to have ICE agents and other people take off their mass.

That's actually something that our legislators are trying to address here when, you know, after this kind of situation in Los Angeles. Yeah, you know, one of the things that we've seen here in Florida is the deputizing of local law enforcement and oftentimes through a formal program with immigration and customs enforcement through ICE to allow local sheriff's deputies, local police, even in some cases, campus police, do some type of federal immigration enforcement, right? and really kind of that line between state enforcement and federal enforcement here. These are the so-called 287G. Yeah, especially. Our listeners probably have not even heard that. Yeah, yeah. That 287G because we don't have them here, but you've got a ton in Florida.

Oh, it's more than for the 287G refers. It's not a Florida statute, right, Alexis and Jasmine. That's a federal statute. Right. This covers all 50 states. And when you look at a map of the states that have police forces with 287G, California, California is an outlier, Alexis. Like, it's grayed out in those maps where Florida is responsible for about a third of all, all law enforcement 287G arrangements.

And there's kind of three different versions of it. But essentially, the takeaway, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Jasmine, is it deputizes local law enforcement officials to enforce certain levels of immigration law. In some cases, enforce the law right away. In some cases, kind of transfer someone who may be in custody in a county jail. into ice custody, for instance? Yes, it's kind of the anti-sanctuary state. In fact, Florida has said there will not be sanctuary. Sorry, I meant to say sanctuary cities.

There won't be sanctuary cities here in Florida. Yeah. Yeah, it is so interesting, Jasmine. And I think some of this gets to how much of this, like particularly sanctuary cities or sanctuary states, I think sometimes our listeners have said, you know, this feels. feels kind of performative. Is there, does this actually have any teeth to it? But reading about the way that Florida and Texas have really deported so many more people, even given all the, you know, the theater and reality of what happened in Los Angeles, it seems to say that actually these

longstanding agreements between federal immigration enforcement and local agencies does, in fact, have a real and tangible effect on how many people, you know, get deported? Yes. You know, I mean, there is a lot of theater to it, but the theater has, has consequences. And, you know, I want to go back to something that your, that the listeners said earlier, David, you know, this, this tongue-in-cheek joke of, well, maybe Donald Trump will go pick strawberries now. And I hear that a lot, not about Donald Trump, but, you know, maybe now white Americans or Stephen Miller's children will have to go pick strawberries now. And there's a sort of like shot and fraud about that. But actually, as I travel through Florida and as I

travel through states with similar policies. What I am increasingly seeing is that as parents, parents who have been in the U.S. for 30, 40 years, get deported. In fact, the people that are filling that labor gap are their children, American citizens, brown American citizens who are not going to college, who are not pursuing other activities that young people in the U.S. American citizens might pursue, and who are now going out into the fields. and working in construction and doing this labor that their parents got removed from. And so I think something that, you know, to really think about is who fills in that gap when those policies are taking place?

And I'll tell you what, it's not the upper middle class and upper class white kids to that effect. And just to build upon what Jasmine's sharing with her reporting, what we've reported, And I've sat with a family, Alexis, and it brings up the birthright citizenship question that the president has pushed since inauguration day. I've sat with a couple from Venezuela who were here on an asylum claim and then switched over to temporary protected status. And they have been on the clock with the TPS volatility that we've had here across the country. And they have a young daughter born in the United States. And they shared with me that they have gone. through family planning waiting for the birthright citizenship issue to be sorted out that they

they're not expanding their family because that has been brought into question you know my other big question that's something i really want kQED listeners you know in california to hear is how this is affecting students of these families right because like you're saying jasmine the kids are going to work they're also there's the kind of climate of fear around going to school so what's happened with student enrollment down there in florida tom you want to take this one i think you're Oh, go for it. Yeah, Jasmine, I'm curious as you're reporting. I mean, some of the largest school districts in the country are in Florida.

In Florida, school districts are countywide. So Miami-Dade County Public Schools, I think it's the fourth largest school district in the country. Student enrollment is down by 13,000 students, and a good portion of that is because of immigration. In Orange County, where Orlando, Florida is, down 6,600 students, about half of that because of immigration. in Palm Beach County, down 6,000 students, three quarters of which the district says is because of the immigration enforcement crackdown. So significant changes. And each one of those students, of course, represents tax dollars to support traditional public schools. You know, Tom, Jasmine, this has been such an interesting look for our listeners.

It kind of feels like we're looking into a possible future for California of all these changes that you all are already experiencing down there. Yeah. And it's been great to hear from you, Alexis, and Jasmine. and you're reporting, of course, in Florida and across the country, kind of putting all of what we're experiencing in Florida in perspective and hearing also from Californians, Alexis, about their curiosity about your neighbors across the country here in the Sunshine State. Great to work with you and your crew are there.

Absolutely. Same here. Thank you so much, all of your producers there, too. Such a great job. Thank you. We'll see you next time. Thanks for having me. Alexis Gards covers Immigration for National Public Radio

and is also the host of The Last Cup, a podcast. about the World Cup and the immigration experience. We grab our opportunity. You can always find us at the email radio at the Florida Roundup.org Radio at the Florida Roundup.org. The Florida Roundup is produced by WLRN Public Media in Miami and WSF in Tampa by Bridget O'Brien and Denise Royal. W.L.R.N.'s vice president of radio is Peter Merritt.

The program's technical director is M.J. Smith. Engineering help each and every week from Doug Peterson, Ernesto J. and Jackson Hart. Our theme music is provided by Miami Jazz guitarist, More at Aaron Leibos.com. You can always catch the podcast by searching the Florida Roundup on the NPR app. Thanks for calling, emailing, listening, and above all, supporting public radio in your slice of Florida. I'm Tom Hudson. Have a terrific weekend.

The Florida Roundup is sponsored by covering Florida Navigator program, providing confidential assistance with health insurance enrollment through the health insurance marketplace. marketplace. Assistance is available at 877-813-915 or