The Florida Roundup - Free speech in Florida 

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

A new rule clamps down on who can demonstrate at the Florida Capitol — and what they can say. Plus: The "Live Local Act" is getting bipartisan support in Tallahassee, and spring breakers are smiling despite red tide.

Welcome to the Florida Roundup and thanks for listening. I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. Throughout the history of America, people have used protests to make their voices heard and advocate for change. But in Florida, a new rule clamps down on who gets to say what at the state capitol. Here's what it says after the rule change took effect at the start of March. Any group who wants to hold a rally or demonstration at the state capitol must now have an official sponsor. Not only that, their rally has to align with the state agency's mission.

Here's one example of how this played out. The League of Women Voters of Florida was recently denied permission to hold an outdoor rally on the steps of the old Capitol in Tallahassee under these new rules. They responded by holding a news conference. Some league members at that event put red tape over their mouths to show what they say is the muzzling of people whose opinions are at odds with the government. We begin the hour with a closer look here on the Florida Roundup, and you can call us up. Exercise your right to free speech by calling us now at 305-995-1800 or tweet the show at Florida Roundup as we welcome Cecile Schoon, president of the League of Women Voters of Florida. Cecile, good to be with you. We might not have her that just yet, but it's 305-995-1800. Hi, Cecile.

Hi, how are you? There you are. OK, so you've called this new rule limiting rallies at the Florida Capitol a radical change. How so? Well, I've been visiting the state Capitol with different organizations, lobby days, my sorority, AKAs, the League, sometimes the NAACP, different groups that I belong to. And I've observed many, many groups having marches, waving signs, yelling out their viewpoints on the steps of the Capitol, inside by the rotunda, all different places, and different groups, conservative groups, progressive groups, just different groups that have an issue that they want to share with their legislators. And it's a welcome sign, you know, it's a sign of a vibrant democracy, when the government can listen to directly the comments of the citizens. So this change, which says that you have to have an agency sponsor you,

a state agency sponsor you, and that the state agencies must be in alignment with the statements that you would like to make, is absurd and that is the radical change, because sometimes you want to complain about or point out the imperfections of the government. So to ask the government's permission, and do you agree with this criticism, is basically going to be chasing your tail and make it almost impossible to criticize the government. Certainly, that is a bedrock American value and a right enshrined in the Constitution.

The dictionary definition of protest is the act of organizing a public demonstration of disapproval. But if we now in Florida have to get approval from the people that organizers of rallies want to protest against, does the right to protest even still exist in Florida? Not on government property, apparently. It just makes no sense. That spaces that have been traditionally used on government property, I listed some of them. Well, they're public forums. And that's my understanding of the case law is some places become public forums, such as some places in grocery areas, grocery stores. If there's a place where people customarily gather to spread information,

share ideas, then over time it becomes a public space. But here we actually have public property. It is public space. It's paid for by tax dollars. On top of it, it has historically been used in that manner. So for the government now to say, oh, we've got to protect, we've got to limit, we've got to shut down that voice, is coming pretty much out of left wing and does not comport with freedom. And Florida is supposed to be the state of freedom. It certainly doesn't comport with that. And it doesn't comport with our First Amendment rights under our federal or state constitution. It's 305-995-1800 as we talk about free speech in Florida. Republicans in Tallahassee have defended this change as a way of maintaining order at the Capitol.

They also have accused your organization, the League of Women Voters, of not really being a nonpartisan organization. What's your response to that? Well, we have demonstrated by our behavior and our willingness to partner with many different organizations over the years, regardless of their party affiliation. So that is a false statement. When we were working on solar, there were many libertarians and Republicans who agreed with us and we work together. We often look at issues and we try to see what's best for the Floridians. And we don't look at candidates or we don't look at parties. We have our bylaws and we have our procedures. When we host forums for candidates, we invite everybody at the same time.

For candidates, we invite everybody at the same time. I know I used to be a local president in Bay County, and I would literally have six or seven paper envelopes with an invitation, and I would put them in the mailbox at the exact same time. Then I would also set up the invitation by email, and I would have them all listed in the BCC, and I would send them out at the exact same time and then when we would call them up to remind and say are you coming we would make those phone calls on the exact same

day in order so those are some of the things that we do to open our ears and our forums to everybody's point of view. So when you're doing that, it's pretty hard to say that you're being partisan. We'll go to your calls in a moment as we talk about restrictions on protests at the Capitol and other efforts in the state to weaken the First Amendment. That's your right to free speech. Call us up at 305-995-1800. On Twitter, a listener says, being able to petition the government for grievances is American. To restrict that is unpatriotic and un-American. That is what happens when voter apathy is the norm. So much for free speech, he says. Cecile Schoon, League of Women Voters, let me ask you about another matter.

Your organization is embroiled in an ongoing lawsuit against the state over a 2021 voting law. Critics say it suppressed voter turnout among African-Americans. What's the latest on that legal matter? legal matter? Okay. I believe you're referring to our litigation under SB 90, which limited many, many avenues that people use to vote. One was taking away the drop box, which working class people and people who work two jobs, that was awesome. They could come off of their job and drop their vote by mail in the secure box outside. Now that's not available. They are forced to try to come inside during regular business hours, which has a very discriminatory effect on working class blue collar people and people who work two jobs, people who are disabled and people who are elderly and don't drive.

So that was one of the things we litigated. In trial, the judge pretty much agreed with many of their allegations and found in favor of ourselves and three other institutional organizational plaintiffs, Equal Ground, Black Voters Matter, and Florida Rising. So we got a 228-page order pretty much agreeing with us and prohibiting a lot of the limitations. That order was appealed, and it has presently stayed, which means that it's being treated as if it were frozen frozen for now got it yeah okay right you can call us here at the florida roundup at 305-995-1800 that's 305-995-1800 and we want to go to jenny callingville. Jenny, thanks for calling the Florida Roundup.

You're on the line. Thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to, I feel like I need to speak up about how increasingly fascist the moves are that Ron DeSantis is making in Florida. A couple of things just this week, he revoked a liquor license from a hotel in Miami because they had a drag show. Some of his house bills he's supporting are to break up families by causing parents who give LGBTQ treatment to their children to potentially be facing felony charges.

Now he's limiting free speech. I think we all need to be very concerned that these are the types of tactics that led up to Nazi Germany. And that's my comment. Thank you. Thank you for calling, Jenny. I want to bring into the conversation now Bobby Block, the executive director of the First Amendment Foundation of Florida. Bobby, welcome to the Florida Roundup. Thanks for coming on. Hey, thanks for having me. Absolutely.

So I want to talk, what's happening at the state capitol now is on the backdrop of some sweeping changes to freedom of expression and the freedom of the press that have been proposed in the legislature. A bill from Republican Representative Alex Andrade from Pensacola would make it a lot easier to sue media outlets for defamation. Can you can you explain the First Amendment Foundation's concerns with that bill in particular?

Well, let me just offer one correction. It makes it easier to sue anybody who criticizes government policy effectively or it makes it easier to sue this is uh this is uh this is a proposed law that if passed would lower the threshold the constitutional guarantees that protect both the media and free speech it would impact um traditional media it would impact traditional media. It would impact new media. It would impact social media. And it would probably impact most of all conservative media. It would enable anyone who finds offense with what you say grounds to sue you. Now, they're claiming that the information would have to be false, but that's not wholly true. It reintroduces a legal situation known as the false light tort, which several years ago, the Florida Supreme Court threw out. And what the false light toward is, is what it if you were to see or hear something that was true, but you felt that the intention of which was to make you look bad, you would have grounds to sue on a defamation basis. That while the information may have been true, the intention was not to inform the public, but was to embarrass an individual.

And I'm sorry to cut you off. I want to ask you, I mean, and I do want to acknowledge that we as journalists on this show, at least on my side, we're not exactly neutral parties on this, because if this law passes, it could impact the things that we report about the things we talk about on this show. Because if this law passes, it could impact the things that we report about, the things we talk about on this show. I mean, you talked about how it's not just the media, though. I mean, if this passes, someone wants to talk about their elected official on Facebook and in a Facebook message. I mean, would that impact someone? Absolutely. Absolutely. Imagine you're a retiree that came down from Ohio and you're living in a coastal community that you chose because you liked its size. And there are plans now to change zoning rules or to change the growth and development strategy where you're going to turn this small community into a bunch of high rises. you're going to turn this small community into a bunch of high rises. And you're very, you're involved in a passionate debate. And all of a sudden, a decision comes down after a particular meeting,

which seems to go ahead and proceed with plans. And you're not convinced that everything's on the up and up. So you go to your Facebook page and you say, I don't see how they came to this decision. You know, could our officials be on the take? Bam, you're in the crosshairs of a potential lawsuit from your county commissioners or your county manager. You're a citizen blogger and you're watching an environmental issue in your town and you accuse DEP of falling down on the job, boom. You, in theory, could be subject to a lawsuit. But let's think beyond that even.

Let's think to Comedy Central and to HBO comedy specials. Let's think to Bill Maher and to John Oliver. Satirists and these programs, if they're broadcast and seen in Florida and someone takes offense and they believe that you've pushed your opinion to a point of something that resembles fact, you can be sued for defamation. have a sweeping impact across the media landscape. And it will force anyone who sits down with a pen and a keyboard or a microphone that before they write, post, or speak to be extraordinarily careful about what they say, lest they face financial ruin. And you just brought it up. But it's one of the things I do wonder about. Would this be applied even to media organizations in other states? Because, you know, part of me is wondering, well, if this passes, would some Tallahassee based organizations just move across the border to Georgia? I mean, would that bring them any

protection? Well, the law, first off, another aspect of the law that's really worrying is that it allows for what they call liable tourism, that you could go shopping for the best venue in the state where you think that the judges and the juries might be most favorable to you. And yes, this would include outside. There is a conservative station that I'm aware of right now that faces three lawsuits before the law ever passed. And one of them is based on a syndicated program. And that's under the current constitutionally recognized guidelines of actual malice, which, of course, this law would overdo. And we could talk about that separately. But the point is, the answer is it would if it's broadcast in Florida, it would allow people to sue in Florida. And you just touched on it briefly. But I mean, what are the chances that if this passes, that it goes up the chain

to the Supreme Court? I mean, it seems to be the, well, it's a stated intention in a way to bring this to the Supreme Court and change. Well, it has to go to the Supreme Court because of, I mean, it not only violates the First Amendment, but by, there is a 1964 landmark Supreme Court decision known as the New York Times v. Sullivan. And it was based on an advertisement that ran in the New York Times that was by civil rights groups that were trying to raise money for Martin Luther King's legal defense fund. And in this advertisement, they made a few honest, simple mistakes about the number of times King had been arrested and the number of police actions that the Montgomery police had made. And those mistakes enabled the commissioner at the time or the guy

that oversaw the police, a man named Sullivan, to sue the New York Times for defamation, saying, although he was not directly named, saying that his reputation suffered. And he won the initial cases and trials in Alabama. And the amount of the award was half a million dollars which in the 1961 was a huge amount of money anyway by the time i got to the supreme court the supreme court basically came in and said look um the the first amendment demands a rigorous public debate we we need to talk about this so got it we're gonna we're gonna have to get a def go ahead we going to have to leave it right there. I'm really sorry to cut you off. We were talking with Bobby from the First Amendment Foundation of Florida, Bobby Block.

Thank you so much. And also we were joined by Cecile Schoon from the League of Women Voters of Florida. Thank you both so much for coming on. Our pleasure. Thank you. Much more still ahead. Meanwhile, later in the hour, we'll tell you why Red Tide is menacing some Florida beaches this spring break. Up next, State Senate President Kathleen Pasadena here on the Florida Roundup. Terima kasih telah menonton Thank you. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. And I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. Senator Pasadena, many thanks for coming on. We appreciate it.

It's my pleasure. So, Senator, you have a list of bills that you've said. Sorry about that. I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. OK, Florida Roundup. Yes. Lawmakers are in Tallahassee this month for their legislative session with some controversial, controversial bills on the agenda, including limiting abortion to just six weeks of pregnancy, banning gender-affirming care, and others, Danny. And another thing on Lawmakers' To-Do List this session

is tackling the affordable housing crisis. There is a major bill that was passed unanimously in the Senate, a 95-page affordable housing bill, that includes a lot of things, and it comes with a price tag of about $711 million. For more on what's happening on that bill in Tallahassee, I spoke with Senate President Republican Kathleen Pasadena. Let's take a look.

Senator Pasadena, many thanks for coming on. We appreciate it. It's my pleasure. So, Senator, you have a list of bills that you've said are your priorities this legislative session. And I want to start our conversation there. One of them is the Live Local Act, which passed the Florida Senate unanimously last week. And even Senate Democrats are saying that this bill is going to be a game changer for affordable housing in the state of Florida. Tell us a little bit about what's in the Live Local Act and why it's such a big deal.

Everywhere I go, speaking to groups, whether it be business groups or civic groups and the like, the number one problem facing our state was the lack of safe, affordable housing for the people who work for us and with us and us for that matter. So last summer, I sat down with staff and said, how do we find a way for the people who work in a community to live in that community? I know it's a real problem in your neck of the woods. Down here in southeast Florida, right? Exactly. Because a lot of the people who work downtown or, you know, in the city itself live sometimes as much as an hour away. And that troubles me because a lot of the people that we're talking about are young families. And when they have to leave for work at, you know, 530 or 6 in the morning to fight the traffic to get to work, they have to leave their kids at home to get to school by themselves. And so that, you know, it just creates additional problems. But I do want to ask you about some of the specific things in the bill. The bill would provide an unprecedented 700 plus million dollars to boost Florida housing programs. It would preempt or overrule some local

government opposition to expanding housing, which I think the idea is to create more housing. But that's also running into a bit of opposition from some cities that don't want that local control taken away. Can you explain your thinking on that? Yeah, the biggest challenge you have is that the concept of workforce housing is one that has a bad connotation and it brings down the neighborhood and crime etc and so what that had done in the past was it kept local governments from from endorsing and supporting workforce housing because of the opposition of neighbors so we have to get local governments on board but we also have to change the narrative so So it's a double path. So what do we do when we are asking a developer to build a product that's mixed income? How do they make up

for the loss of income for those affordable units? We're asking local governments to provide tax breaks for those affordable units. And the state is willing to do that as well. One of the other things, and I think it'll be particularly helpful over on Southeast Florida, is transportation corridors like US-1, US-41. There are many commercial strip centers along some of these corridors that many of those strip centers are going out of business. So we are encouraging local governments to allow multifamily residential in those commercial areas. Because, you know, when you look at those commercial areas, what's one block on either side? Houses. And if you could repurpose some of those strip centers that are next to banks and that are next to office buildings or hospitals. The live local concept is if you are

in a strip center that's turned into a multifamily residential project next to a hospital, who do you think is going to rent those units? The people who work in the hospital. They can walk to work. As you know, the governor came up with a really great idea of the Hometown Heroes program, which is down payment assistance for our heroes, our first responders, our nurses, our teachers, our law enforcement, firefighters, et cetera. And that program has been extremely successful. And our thought is, you know, our firefighters, our first responders, our teachers, our nurses are our heroes, but aren't the people who serve us, who work in our state for our companies that operate in our state, are they heroes as well? So we're adding more money to the program so that, you know, the people that provide services to all of us could use some of the down payment assistance so they qualify.

Right. And I read through the bill. It looks like the occupational limit is actually going to be eliminated from that program. So someone working at Publix, they could get that that additional down payment assistance. You don't have to be a firefighter or a teacher. Exactly. And, you know, homeownership, of course, being what we wish for everyone. And there's one other piece of the bill that I think is really critical is we've created something called the missing middle. Right now in our Sadowski affordable housing programs, we have income limits. We've created a missing middle, and that is people who are making too much money to qualify for those, you know, the lower income dollars and not enough money to live in their community.

So it'd be like a family making like $90,000, family of four, you know, that should be comfortable, but not to live in Miami. So we've created that missing middle and are providing incentives to help those people. And, you know, they can rent for a couple of years at a lower rate, start saving money for a down payment for themselves for some time in the future. So, you know, we have something for everybody. It's a 106-page bill, all new law. It's a very big bill. The government of Key Biscayne here in Miami-Dade County has come out against this. The Martin County Commission unanimously voted to

oppose this. And part of the reason is they say it's transferring too much control of local decision-making to the state. I understand what you say is the goal, but in a sense, what you're setting up in Florida is a little bit similar to a law passed in California in 2021 that did let the state government override local governments to encourage more development of affordable housing. How do you respond to that comparison that some people are looking at this and saying this is kind of what liberal California did? Absolutely not. First of all, we don't totally preempt anything. In fact, we don't preempt density. One of the things we do ask and we do suggest is that they reduce the timeframe for permitting. And I'll tell you why we did that.

Because local governments, if they don't want affordable housing because it's crime-ridden or they don't know what the goal of this program is, they slow walk those projects. They put so many restrictions on them that they can't pass. What we're saying is we want you to fast track those permits if they do it right. The only thing that's really preempted in this bill is rent control. For me, that was really important because, you know, I'm a real estate lawyer. I've done that for 43 years. Private property rights are sacrosanct in the state of Florida. And I've asked, I've said this to people who are very upset about the rent control. I even said it to a reporter.

I said, if you owned a house in Orlando and you got transferred to New York so you can work for the New York Times and you can't sell your house and you'd want to rent it, right? And he said, yes. And I said, well, how would you like it if I told you how much you could charge for rent? Well, I wouldn't like that at all. I said, that's what rent control does. And so we can't do that. That's not the way to foster affordable housing. The way to do it is to incentivize the communities, developers, even individuals to offer rental rates lower than the market rate. So just to recap a tiny bit, the hope is, as far as local governments go, to cut down on the resistance to building things, because it sounds like you see that there's a supply issue. And if local governments are slow walking that, then they need a little bit of a push to build more and make things affordable in the long run.

Absolutely. One of the other things, too, it really is going to help right away because the program also provides that any projects that have been built within the last five years that provide for affordable units can get the same tax breaks and incentives that are in the bill for new and future construction. The bottom line is this is a common sense bill to help alleviate the crisis we have. There is one section that I call almost aspirational where we say, think creatively. What kind of housing can fit in your community? Look at manufactured homes. Look at manufactured homes. Look at tiny homes. Look at multi-income projects.

Big box stores that have gone out of business. Maybe that would be right for affordable housing. Look at your inventory of property in the community. We have school boards that have properties all over a community that they're never going to build on. that have properties all over a community that they're never going to build on. Maybe that would be inappropriate for them to enter into a partnership with an affordable housing developer to build housing for the people who work in the schools, not just teachers and administrators. But what about the bus drivers and the people who work in the cafeterias, all who have to drive really far to get to work. You know, I think

there's something for everybody in this bill. Another priority of yours, this legislative session, is a bill that would invest $200 million into expanding Florida's foot and bike trail network and connecting it with the Florida wildlife corridor. Florida has a ton of natural beauty. It has good hiking. I love hiking myself. But it's not necessarily known for its trail network. So, Senator, can you tell us a little bit about why this has been a priority for you? the winter vegetable capital of the world, particularly for the eastern seaboard. And as the farmers are cashing out and selling their land to developers because they couldn't afford to farm or there was reasons not to, we're basically concreting from the east coast to the west coast. We want our farmers to continue to farm and our ranchers to continue to ranch.

So we have a program of buying their development rights from willing farmers and willing ranchers to continue to ranch. So we have a program of buying their development rights from willing farmers and willing ranchers who are willing to sell their development rights. So in order to protect and preserve the center of the state as we're buying those development rights, that's our goal. At the same time, those areas now become home to a lot of wildlife. The panthers have places to roam, the bears, alligators, everything. And the panthers have been expanding their habitat. So they need more space in which to roam. Exactly. So as we're doing that, I started to talk to some of the people who are involved in the wildlife corridor. What would be a way for public access to those beautiful lands? They're running up Fish Eating Creek, the Kissimmee River to Lake Kissimmee

because there are no roads and we don't want roads there. But why not have a bike path that's a passive where people could bike or run from Naples to Orlando, stop in all the little towns. Can you imagine? I think it'd be the economic development

of the center of the state would be a really good source of development. Because the other thing, the center of our state is economically deprived. You know, they're fiscally constrained counties because they don't have industry. They don't have the kind of development that the coasts have, of course. Do we want them to develop with, you know, what can you build there? Do you want to build a prison? No. What you want is to have the beauty of those communities highlighted because they are beautiful. And to have tourists being able to access them, I think, is really wonderful.

I do want to ask you about the institution which you are now at the head of, the Florida Senate. For many years, the Florida Senate has been seen more or less as a moderating feature of state politics, that even if the Senate was controlled by the same party as the governor in the House, that it was a place for serious debate, compromises, surprising votes. But recently, there's a perception that this is no longer the case. Do you feel that the Senate is upholding its independence and oversight role, especially in relation with the governor? The Senate is an independent body, as is the House, as is the governor. We work collaboratively and collectively. I work really well with Governor Santos. Many people, you know, have made comments they thought he was aloof or standoffish or controlling and managing. I don't find that at all.

everybody. And I don't micromanage anybody. And we all come to a conclusion. It's not always an agreement, but we're respectful and we're dignified. And at the end of the day, we're a Senate family. So some of the most talked about items this session, if you look at the public polling on them, some of the most talked about items do not enjoy a lot of public support. And that's specifically things like this permitless carry bill. Majority of Floridians, according to a recent poll by the University of North Florida, do not support that. Same thing with the proposed six-week abortion ban. Republicans definitely have the numbers to make these things pass if they want to. definitely have the numbers to make these things pass if they want to. But can you tell me why no one was really campaigning on these positions a few months ago when Republicans did win these landslide elections in Florida?

You know, I don't think that's true that the Republicans didn't campaign on them because the sponsors of the bills actually did campaign on those as issues important to them. The other thing that a lot of people need to realize is that I may be the president of the Senate, but I don't control my senators. Every senator has the right to file bills that they choose. I don't know what people are going to file. I don't have the ability to find out. Our bill drafting is confidential to the individual senators. So the two bills that you referenced were filed by two senators who cared very strongly about the issues. And then the process works.

My only influence was when Senator Graw was ready to file the abortion bill. She came to me and said, I'm going to file a six-week abortion bill. That was, you know, that was out of courtesy to me because she knew that I was on the record and saying I did not want to go below 12 weeks. But she also knew that I, my number one priority in that arena is an exception for rape and incest, which was not included in the 15-week ban bill. You know, I fought very hard during that process to when that bill was passed to see if it could get in, but it never did. I mean, I'm just one vote. So Senator Raul said, I'm going to file the bill, but out of respect for you as president, I will put it in exception for rape and incest. That's the bill we have.

And that bill can go through the process, and it is going through the process. Committee chair agendas the bill, and it's heard. And I'm comfortable with it. Again, I'm on the record that I support 12 weeks. But this is the bill we have. And as long as it has the exception for the rape and incest, that's important to me. The same thing with the permitless carry bill. A member filed the bill.

I'm glad it was not an open carry bill. I would have been unhappy with that. He's worked with the members to discuss that bill. I would have been unhappy with that. He's worked with the members to discuss that bill. The sheriffs came up and supported the bill. And I said, again, would you consider putting in the public safety language that I care about? And he said, yes. And so there you have it. Republican Senator Kathleen Pasadena is the president of the Florida Senate. President Pasadena, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

Really interesting and in-depth look at what the legislature is doing there from the Senate president. In a moment, what's causing the state's red tide outbreak? That's next here on the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. We'll be right back. Thank you. Welcome back to the Florida Roundup. I'm Melissa Ross in Jacksonville. And I'm Danny Rivero in Miami. And spring break is now in full swing on Florida's beaches. And even an outbreak of red tide isn't getting the visitors down or stopping people from coming here. Dead fish are washing ashore and beach goers are facing respiratory problems on beaches in southwest Florida. Now the red tide phenomenon is named for the brownish red hue it

gives the water. Red tide occurs when toxic algae proliferate. For more on the red tide outbreak, we welcome senior environmental reporter Tom Bayless of WGCU in Fort Myers. Hi, Tom. How you doing? And it's 305-995-1800. So how bad is the red tide this spring, Tom? I think it is a red tide like Southwest Florida has not seen before. Traditionally, the ones that we've had have been a single bloom that have that has worked with the currents or washed with the currents and moved around and then dissipated after a certain period of time whether that would be a couple of weeks or um or longer but in this case we are having

these pockets of red tide pop up and go away pop pop up and go away. And we're talking dozens and dozens of them since Hurricane Ian in September. And is Hurricane Ian climate change or any of those factors in this unprecedented outbreak? It's really hard to say if a specific storm got stronger because of climate change. But there's a really solid argument to be made that it is indisputable that the oceans are warming. I mean, it's been measured, so that's nothing that anyone can argue with. And that does allow more heat with the expansion of the ocean to get in there and make the waters warmer, and that does foster stronger hurricanes. to get in there and make the waters warmer. And that does foster stronger hurricanes. Now,

if it weren't for us using fossil fuels for the last 80 years, would have Hurricane Ian not existed or would have been a category one instead of a four? That's up for debate. But it came in, it was a category four, and it dumped a lot of water on Southwest Florida. a lot of water on Southwest Florida. It sure did. Now, it is spring break. How big of a concern right now is this red tide, which you say is even worse than 2018 or really within living memory for business owners looking for spring breakers to come and have fun? I think one of the hardest questions I get related to that is, can I go to this beach today? And it really is a day-to-day thing because these red tides, sure, some float around like normal and are large and they're kind of being tracked. But others are popping up in local places, let's say off the beaches of Lee County. And it'll be there for a few days and

it'll drift away or it'll break up. It'll do its thing. And it's so it's impossible to answer the question. If I can go, can I go to this beach today? And will there be no red tide? Normally you can say yes or no, but with the conditions since Ian and all the nutrient pollution that that storm washed into the Gulf of Mexico that's still with us. There's no way to say either where or when a little red tide outbreak is going to happen or how big it'll be and how long this phenomenon is going to continue. And Tom, you just mentioned some of the nutrient runoff. I mean, I remember in 2018, we had a massive red tide outbreak on Florida's coast. And a lot of the conversation was about nutrients and how do we limit them?

How do we, you know, reform agriculture in a way to stop this from going forward? You know, you mentioned the hurricane, too. Can we split those two things off and figure out, like, how much might be the hurricane and the water and how much is the ag runoff? Well, one caused the other. So what you have is the hurricane came in. It moved slow. It was big. And I compared it in a previous story to a washing machine.

So it came in on the wash cycle and the wind and the rain is hitting buildings it's washing down buildings it's washing down roads like never before not like an afternoon thunderstorm but for like 20 hours it's washing and scrubbing the roads and the oil and the goo and it's filling up dumpsters which are emptying again and we have a big problem here in southwest florida with abandoned septic tanks that aren't necessarily empty and all that stuff which is filled with phosphorus and nitrogen which are the two main chemicals that help things grow in in um fertilizer whether it's the kind you put on your lawn or the kind that big ag uses on lake okachobee all of that we hit the then hit the rinse cycle and it went flowing

back out into the gulf and took all of that dirt with it and there was a massive there's a picture from nasa showing the nutrient pollution that was washed out into the gulf of mexico right after ian and it is it goes out like 80 miles and it's up the coast Sarasota and south to Everglades City and that in it has the stuff that red tide likes to feed on so you can't separate the two and the answer to your first question is yes it's a similar phenomenon what happened in 2018 you're listening to the Florida Roundup from Florida Public Radio. We're speaking about the red tide outbreak in Southwest Florida with Tom Bayless of WGCU in Fort Myers. Daryl in St. Augustine. Hi, Daryl. Go ahead. You're on the air.

Hey, good afternoon. Hi, Melissa. Yeah, I'm just curious why particularly the state of Florida's government isn't being held more accountable and isn't responding to this. Any other natural disaster, hurricane, fires, tornadoes, there is a massive government response to this. It's like, are we just going to try to hold our nose every year and pretend the fish aren't dead? I don't understand why the government isn't actually responding as it would during any other natural disaster. Daryl, thanks. You know, Tom Bayless, I remember when Rick Scott was governor, opponents used to call him Red Tide Rick when we have these outbreaks. But what realistically can government in Florida do to prevent red tide or try to mitigate it once it's already killing fish and causing human beings health problems?

Even without nutrient pollution that is fostering more red tides now, red tide is part of nature. in what are like a million other little things that float around and why they decide to bloom and become an oxygen depriving floating thing that often turns red and kills everything it goes over is part of nature and the nutrient pollution and the stuff that human beings have washed into the oceans maybe foster that maybe make a bloom bigger than it would be or make it last longer but it doesn't cause it it's a natural phenomena and there's nothing government can do about that with that said the governments in southwest florida many of them sarasota county lee county charlotte county and even collier they have very uh And even Collier, they have very well thought out beach cleaning programs when the fish do wash up, when a bunch of seaweed and other stuff comes up that the beach should be cleaned off so it can be used for people, used by people. That's in place. And the state has also spent several million dollars working on a blue

green algae mitigation program, which is separate from this discussion. But there are people in government on this. But the overall red tide problem, it's like saying, how can we stop air pollution globally? It's just there. And Tom, I want to ask you, you know, I've had the unfortunate experience of going to a beach experiencing red tide and just feeling awful about it. And there are very real human health consequences of this, and you don't have to be on the beach necessarily to feel the impact. But can you just tell us a little bit about the impact on humans? Yeah, absolutely. This is the, the toxins in red tide are real and they go airborne. And if you've been to the beach, uh, with a strong red tide, or you're particularly, particularly susceptible to one in the way that your, your nose works and your mouth works,

you're going to smell this acrid odor. And it's part fish decaying and it's part this brevitoxin that's in red tide itself. And it makes a lot of people have respiratory issues. Now, if you're a perfectly healthy person and you're young and you don't have anything going on in your body, it's probably not going to bother you that much or it'll go away as soon as you leave the beach. But with our population and our tourism group, often the people are a little older and this can put people in the hospital. People with respiratory issues can go to the beach, not understand what they're dealing with, not leave right away. And then by that afternoon, they need to see their doctor. It happens. And I mean, has this current wave

right now in Southwest Florida, has this impacted tourism like hotel bookings, et cetera? Are people avoiding the area or no, no impact? Absolutely. The you know, these poor beachfront business owners had to live through hopefully once in a lifetime hurricane. And if they survived, they opened their doors, you know, in the last month or two, once people could get back on the barrier islands and businesses were allowed to open again, and then they get hit with this. And I feel for them because no studies have been done on hurricane Ian, but one was done on the effect of Irma on the overnight booking website.

The name is eluding me right now. But their bookings were down by 50% or 60% for the months that the red tide in 2018 was here. And I imagine it's the same now. Lots of things people can do quickly, I want to say, before we say goodbye, to try to mitigate, prevent red tide, pick up your pet's waste, go organic, embrace native plants. Simple actions we can all take. Governments can restrict fertilizer inputs. All of these things are contributing.

But I want to thank you so much for joining us. Tom Bayless, he's the senior environmental reporter at WGCU in Fort Myers, where they are currently dealing with an unprecedented outbreak of red tide. Avoid it if you're in that area. Thanks so much for joining the Florida Roundup this afternoon. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And thanks to everyone around the state who listened today. That is our show. The Florida Roundup is produced by WJCT Public Media in Jacksonville and WLRN Public Media in Miami. Heather Schatz, Bridget O'Brien, and Natu Tway are producers. Brendan Rivers is our associate producer.

WLRN's vice president of radio and our technical director is Peter Mayers. Engineering help from Doug Peterson, Charles Michaels, and Isabella Da Silva. Richard Ives answers the phones. Our theme music is provided by Miami jazz guitarist Aaron Libos at AaronLibos.com. I'm Danny Rivero. And I'm Melissa Ross. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.