The Food Medic - S10 EP 7 Tackling toxic diet culture with Laura and Steph from Kic

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

Today Dr Hazel is joined by Laura Henshaw and Steph Claire Smith - founders of KIC - a leading health and wellness app born out of AustraliaTrigger warning: This episode does contain conversations around eating disorders and disordered eating behaviours. This episode covers: Rebranding KIC from ‘Keep it Cleaner’ Laura and Steph’s own experiences with food and exercise How they are helping others build a healthy and more sustainable relationship with food & exercise. Running a business with your best friend Their experiences as female entrepreneurs How steph navigates being a mum and running a business Interested in more content like this? Check out www.thefoodmedic.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Grocer $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Hello and welcome back to the Food Medic Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Hazel, a medical doctor,

nutritionist, PT, author and founder of The Food Medic. Today I'm joined by Laura Henshaw and Steph Clare-Smith, founders of Cake, a leading health and wellness app born out of Australia. This episode Laura and Steph share their experiences with toxic wellness culture and how they're rewriting the diet rulebook we were once told and help others build a healthy and more sustainable relationship with food and exercise. I want to flag that this episode does contain conversations around eating disorders and disordered eating behaviours which some people may find triggering. If so this episode may not be for you. Lauren Steph, welcome to the Food Medic podcast. Thank you for having us. I'm so happy we got to squeeze it in just before you guys fly back. Thank you, yeah thank you so much for having us on, we're so excited. No I'm so happy we got to squeeze it in just before you guys fly back Thank you so much for having us on, we're so excited No, I'm excited to chat to you guys and learn about your story

And I think that's a really great place to start You guys are really good friends, best friends And own a business together So how did you meet? How did it all start? We met in 2013 through the modeling industry we both were casted on a lot of similar shows in Melbourne Fashion Week Spring Fashion Week and there's a lot of downtime anyone that's seen the behind the scenes of those fashion shows would know there's like a lot of fittings there's a lot of sitting around so we got to know each other quite a lot

in that time and it was a very quick strong friendship bond like when you meet someone and you feel like you've known them for years so that was really beautiful um and we were also both very new to that neither of us had done a catwalk before so I think we just both felt a little bit like fish out of water and just gravitated towards each other in that and then we both spent time overseas I spent about 10 months in New York and Laws went to Europe and we stayed in touch over that time but it was when we came back that I think like the friendship like got really really strong because we we both reflected on our time overseas and both realized we went through some really similar experiences within the industry and with our bodies and food and stuff so that was kind of

the moment where our friendship friendship went to the next level because we had something that we could both really relate to. And I think at the time we felt like we didn't really know who else to talk to about it as well. So that was quite special. But then that really just sparked the idea of wanting to do something about it and wanting to create a safe space for people to hopefully avoid going down the situation that we did with our bodies and food and exercise or help them through it. Because at the time, this is around 2015, especially on social media,

the kind of fitness and wellness industry was very much either, the fitness industry was very much like boiled chicken, boiled broccoli, low calories, pushing that sort of side of things. And then the other was like wellness kind of everything had to be organic, superfoods, nothing in a packet, had to go to like a superfood store, like a Whole Foods, not your normal supermarket. So it was not really attainable for most people. And we were really fortunate we both grew up in family homes where, you know, you just kind of cook your food

and no one really spoke about dieting. As adults now we are so grateful that our mums you know avoided speaking about that sort of stuff around the home because it's everywhere else so at least we didn't have it in the house um and yet we still both kind of fell into that trap anyway so yeah we just knew that there must be, everyone else must be feeling the same. And we connected with our community. At that time, we had probably about 600,000 followers combined. And so it was when we started opening up about our own struggles that we realized that we were absolutely not alone in it.

And, yeah. It was around the time social media started as well. So it was back then, like, Instagram had just kind of come about and I know for me like before that we were exposed to diets through like magazines and things but just not in the way of Instagram and I think as well like it's got it's changed a lot in terms of people giving advice when they're not experts like there's so much of it I think that there used to be so much more and it's so interesting like I studied biology in school. I understood genetics. Like, we can't, we could, obviously, we could be exactly the same.

We wouldn't look the same. We could move the same. We wouldn't look the same. But it's crazy, like, that all just goes out the window. All of your common sense, all of your knowledge, when you're comparing yourself on social media or, like, in the modelling industry or whatever, like, it just flies out of your head.

Yeah, yeah, it's completely true. I think when you're really deep or surrounded by diet culture you just you don't think logically and you might know that this thing is actually not going to be very healthy for you in the long term say like a fad diet but if you think it's going to give you immediate success or quick results then people will want that and I remember 2015 on Instagram so clearly because I started my page in 2011 I think I actually did my medical elective in Australia in Sydney and so I was in Sydney around 2016 it was early 2016. And I remember thinking, wow, this place is like incredible because there was so much wellness, so much activities you could do, so many different classes, so many different workouts. Like I'd never heard of F45. Like there was so many exciting things.

And I think it's so easy to get like wrapped up in like having to do more and having to eat better and definitely Instagram did at the time and probably for a lot of people still instills that belief how are you guys evolving over the years on social media I know that you went through a rebrand with your brand essentially from keep it cleaner to kick like how did that transition happen for you? Did it happen over a long time? Was it hard to pivot? Yeah, I mean, it was definitely, I mean, it's been a journey. And I think for us, when we started in 2015, we started with an ebook, which was called Keep It Clean. And then we made a subscription website before the app, and that was called Keep It Cleaner. And then we kind of moved into the app under Keep It Cleaner. And at the start of the year, and something that we've always been

so bold on with what we do is like we say with Kik, like it's about how you feel. We want to create a safe place. Like we want to find joy in exercise, like in the food that we eat. It's not about like punishment and guilt or like before and after photos and all of those things. And we were finding that there were so many like other things out there that were saying to people like it's about how you feel and then you went into the product and

it was like oh now take a before photo or like weigh yourself and for us because we've always been so bold on being like kind of against diet culture we wanted to be able to really lean into that but by having the word clean in our name like obviously clean has negative connotations and we I'm a big believer in like you only know what you know at the time and you know when we know better we can do better and for us we when we first started um in 2015 we didn't there wasn't as many negative connotations around the word clean and as we have learned and evolved and like societies evolved there became to be and we didn't want anything to do with you know or have

any triggering word like we spoke to some community members that would say like or originally like we possibly weren't going to sign up because you know you had clean in your name but then we did and like I'm we're so glad that we did but we we didn't want to kind of have that in as I suppose the entrance into our brand of something that we're just we're not about that so it was it was a really like from a like business and branding perspective, it was quite a big task to do it because there's always the fear that, you know, if we come out with this new, and the name that we went to being Kik,

like we're affectionately known as Kik anyway. But I think when you, there's always this fear of when you come out and you own that you could do better. It's the fear of like oh we'll be cancelled or like what will everyone think but it was actually it was it was really interesting it was exactly because it's like oh if we don't talk about it then maybe no one will notice um and so but when we did it was really incredible like everyone was just like thank you for doing this like for

acknowledging it and I think it was it was also a reminder that social media can be a really accepting place because for us like and I'm it it was, it was also a reminder that social media can be a really accepting place because for us, like, and I'm, it's probably was the same here, but through COVID and lockdown, it got really dark on there. Like it was like, everyone was just waiting for you to make a mistake. And if you did, it was like, you'd be reposted on all of these pages. And it was because everyone was just inside all day on their phones right and so it became this thing of this culture of like you know people did something and then they might apologize and then everyone would scrutinize the apology and it wouldn't be right and then that person would be like essentially cancelled for like a year or something which was crazy and so there is this

kind of to own it because it's like what will happen but I think what we learned through that is like yeah it's like you only know what you know and when you know better you need to do better and so that that's what we wanted to do with the with the rebrand like you said it can be really hard to own up to that and say you know at the time this felt like the right thing to do and you guys are not the only page that had clean in the title and have since gone through a rebrand because also you were growing up and going through your own journey absolutely and a lot of people were going through that with you and I think sometimes people think that it's inauthentic to change your mind and like grow from that but I think I had a discussion with Zanna who I think you guys know yeah about

that on this topic because you know she's grown a lot on social media over the years and we were just discussing how the most authentic thing is to own up and to evolve because no one is going to be the same person as they were when they were 21 or have the same ideas or have the same thoughts so I think that's a really like valuable thing to share as well with people yeah because it does take the guilt and the shame away from maybe once believing in that like clean eating mindset yeah it is really interesting I could I mean definitely both of us personally as well we've gone through our own growth as well on social media and I think that's the thing that I hope

a lot of people following people understand um is that we are evolving and learning just as they would have to over the last like 10 years and we're doing it in front of thousands of strangers eyes so you do kind of feel that that pressure and that um that scarce mindset that like if I do something wrong or whatever, am I going to be cancelled? I mean, not to the point where either of us have felt crushed to ever open up about anything, but it is hard because then you've got to balance that as well with we put a lot of pressure on the responsibility that we hold with the community that we do influence. We know how strong that um and that means the world to us so you've also got to be really really careful and responsible for them too so it's finding that

balance of being able to own it and learn in front of strangers eyes um and still trying to do the best thing yeah yeah and have i mean on your podcasts and in your content you do talk a lot about disordered eating and body image is this something that like comes up a lot with your community and the women that you sadly yeah a lot sadly yeah um i mean for us both of us were never so we weren't diagnosed and we we never claimed that we were anything but the habits that we both shared and and whilst they were actually quite different, they were both rooted with, I suppose our why was because we just wanted to be as small as possible. And it took a lot of work to kind of detach that motivation and to then rebuild that relationship that we once had with movement and

food. So a lot, sadly, a lot of our community members come to us when they might feel like they've tried everything and they can't find something that works. And when, you know, when you kind of ask them, what do you mean by works? Yes, some of them, it's, you know, they didn't get to this physical goal. And for others, it's just I'm miserable. Like I've tried different challenges. I've tried different programs. I've tried classes or I've tried all these diets but I'm like not living my life I'm just sad and so it's really nice to kind of build and work on a product with their help as well

always going to them and seeing what they're wanting and needing and creating this safe space and this platform that educates them and that empowers them to kind of find what works for them and to not worry about what anyone else is doing. Do you guys feel like a responsibility to almost be like a big sister then and kind of learn from what I've experienced and try not make the same mistakes? Oh, 100%. And I mean, that's why when we reflect on what we both went through, like for me, I remember I was in Italy.

I was modelling over there and I deferred uni to go over and it's so interesting, like, you have this idea, it's going to be so glamorous, like, oh, my God, imagine going overseas and then you get there and it's like, I got there and I was, I remember I went into my agency and they said, oh, your measurements, like, they measure you because you have to, I think, what was it, your waist? Your waist, your hips, your bust. Sometimes they go full on and we'll get like your thigh your arms

which is it's just crazy and they were like oh you look really inflamed like from the plane we won't do your photos today and I'm thinking in my head this is the skinniest I've ever been in my life and so then I just became fixated on like getting skinnier and smaller and I had this goal weight and I remember I got there and I thought that if I got to this goal weight I would have so much fulfillment my I would be happy which like obviously no now I can reflect on it and I just feel really sad that I thought that but it controlled everything and I thought when I get here that's when I'm going to be happy I'm'm going to be fulfilled. I'm going to feel good in myself. I'm going to be worthy.

And I got to this weight and I looked in the mirror and all I thought was like, you're not small enough. Like now you might, you know, I need more of a thigh gap or like you're still not good enough. And I think for me, when I reflect on that time now, it's like we are just conditioned by everything. Like so much we see and like there's incredible people out there like you with the work that you're doing and so many others

that are helping kind of change that narrative. But it's also like for women and young women in particular, we're so vulnerable when we're coming up through that kind of development stage and we're working out who we are and we just keep thinking that like or we're told that like the way that we look is the most important thing about us, which is why we put so much emphasis on our bodies and so for us absolutely it's like this kind of thing of like we've been through this but because we've been through this now

we've got this kind of responsibility and I think that's the craziest thing with social media like back 10 years ago or before Instagram and stuff if you didn't have I don't know how you'd even grow a business before then you know because if you didn't have, I don't know how you'd even grow a business before then. Because if you didn't have the resources, right? Like for us, we didn't have the resources. We didn't have like the team. We didn't have money to start a business and we didn't have to do like billboards or anything for marketing or TV ads. So it was like, we could do it through Instagram.

And so I feel like now we've, we just feel like we've got this responsibility of this like bigger power of like, we've like we've been given this from somewhere. I don't know how we've like we're so lucky and like we have to do something about it and with it. But it comes with what comes with that is like and I'm sure you're probably the same when you have a mission that's kind of infinite. You just put this extreme pressure on yourself like all the time to keep going because you can always do more. But I mean, like we're lucky to to do what we do but yeah it does feel like that you just want to protect people because it's just when you feel like that it's so it ends so sad to see people put their entire worth in with their weight yeah

I agree with you and I think especially when you come at the other side and you feel that like freedom of like not fixating on food and moving your body because you want to and not because you're trying to like earn calories or whatever it might be that like freedom and that like mindset I think a lot of people think they will never get there and so they're just you know they just don't think it's possible for them and I find it really interesting on social media I do think like now compared to 2015 it's a lot less focused on bodies and focused on calories although there are like definitely pages that are but sometimes I feel like it can get a bit confusing because you'll have women who will

talk about calorie counting but then they'll also talk about loving your body and it's just for some people can be really confusing and I guess like how do you navigate promoting health because this is something I think about as well promoting health promoting movement promoting eating well without it becoming too obsessive yeah and I mean for us I think something that we we've realized in ourselves and then also through the community is the less that you I mean it's really hard I was gonna I was gonna start with not comparing you know your lifestyle choices um to someone else's and thinking like one's healthier than the other because you've got to just find your sweet spot of what works for you but I do know what you mean when when someone's like truly lost and they just really need a guide um

I mean we do have in the app, we have a meal guide, but it's not like a strict plan. We don't have the calories on there. They're all written by a dietitian and all the recipes have been done by a nutritionist and then the dietitian checks it and makes sure it's all balanced and nutritious and the meals too, all together. But most of our community use it as inspiration so that they can kind of get their head around a good balance like day um but other than that it is really tough to kind of know where to start and I think you know people like you with the expertise it's like it's a brilliant place to start for inspiration and then it's just being careful with with maybe following other people without that kind of background knowledge and in what they share because there are so many diets and and stuff out there and I think what we often find

is the ones that feel super restrictive or the ones that mean that you're missing out on times with friends and family like you're scared to go to a family dinner because you don't have control over the ingredients that you know your auntie might be using that's kind of a flag that it might not necessarily be something that you'll be able to stick to anyway. And the healthiest lifestyles are those that, you know, work for you and that you can sustain for the rest of your life. I know for me, I was really restrictive of food groups.

I never got into calorie counting, but it was more just like I demonized certain foods and food groups and would even kind of use excuses as to like avoiding them by you know saying I was intolerant and stuff like that and if I was ever in a place where those foods were in front of me I wouldn't be able to help myself and I fell down a binge eating cycle and then even if I didn't have those foods in front of me I would try and curb my cravings by just eating more and more and more of what I was allowing myself. And so it's really nice to finally be in a place because, again, it doesn't happen overnight where you just kind of

wake up and decide I don't want to do that anymore. Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa? As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale expertise and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. If it was an overnight thing, that would have been a lot easier. But it is really nice to get to a place where you don't have to be too scared of different food groups or like look at things and try and analyse like how much you're going to have to work out after that or like what that means for the rest of the week, you in your diet and but it is hard it is a journey and I think getting an

expert opinion if you're truly truly lost is absolutely like step number one but other than that it's just reach out to as many people as you can and get your resources and try and find you know the right inspiration because there is a lot of people out there putting false kind of things out there what are some of your kind of like red flags on social media of people who you may not want to follow if you are in kind of that risk of trying to move away from diet culture i think well for me calorie counting is super triggering because that was what i fell into so anyone that speaks about calories because then obviously for me it's like i then start looking at food as numbers i think as well in terms of and again it's something that again we've learned

and we now do better we used to do like a lot of media that asked what do you eat in the day at the time we didn't realize that that was very very that could be very triggering for people and so when we like we learned that would mean maybe three or four years ago we now say sorry we're not going to do that so it's you know if you're going on the thing that i that i kind of like my biggest red flag is when people film their abs or like their body and then write what i eat in a day and then at the same time talk about oh it's not about what you look like and like eat food for fuel and and i'm like well you're literally saying i'm advertising my body and this is what I eat to look like this body.

And they don't say that, of course, but that's essentially what it's saying. And that to me, I find that really, because I think with things like that, like there's a lot of information online now and we have had time. Again, we only know what we know, but I do feel like there's been enough time for people to understand that what I eat in a day can be super triggering for people. And so I think that's a big, I find that to be a big red flag. And then also anyone that speaks about, I'm, you know, to go, if you eat an Easter egg or whatever, you know, those stupid like graphics of like, this is how many minutes of exercise you have to do. Anything that makes it into an equation or like puts any guilt or says like people, and I know it's like, again,

we just need to keep changing our language when I really, it worries me when people say like, oh, I'm just working off last night's dinner. Like had pizza tonight. I don't worry, I'll do a big workout tomorrow. And it's like that language, like it's not people's fault that they use that language, right? Because it's how I'm sure their parents maybe spoke and like they're seen in the media, but that's, there is problems with speaking that way because then it's telling yourself that you can't eat that without working that off.

And again, it's like that, that cycle. Yeah, I, I, I'm the same with those, um, with those photos where it's side by side and often they'll find, you know, a chocolate bar that might be X amount of calories and then they'll compare it to something that you might've made fresh with, you know, like dates and that might be X amount of calories and then they'll compare it to something that you might have made fresh with, you know, like dates and nuts and all these incredible ingredients and then they'll just compare the calories as if that's the only thing that matters. It's like, but what about the nutritional benefits that someone's getting from that fulfilling snack

that's probably going to take them through the afternoon? Like McDonald's versus like an acai bowl or something. Yeah, and it's like, because again, we don't demonize foods at Kik. I mean, I eat chocolate every day. Like I'm not, it's not like we're, you know, against processed foods or anything. But when someone does like a side by side like that, it's really confusing for someone looking at it who's, you know, trying to find some inspiration because it's kind of just telling them like, well, if you want an afternoon snack, grab a Snickers bar.

Don't go and make these like healthy treats that people are sharing because they're so high in calories. But it's like, well, that healthy treat might actually give them enough energy to sustain them till dinner or get them through their workout in the afternoon. So it's like there's just, but they leave that part out, you know, and that's what I don't like. Yeah, I agree with you. I think changing the language is so important.

And I feel like I hear it a lot with maybe the older generation because it was like, OK, to talk about things in that way. And just last weekend, I'm from Ireland and I was back home for an engagement party. And I had cheesecake for breakfast. And my uncle said, Hazel, would you like, like you know you can't show your followers this because you know you're a nutritionist and and i was like no uncle peter like i i this i would include this as part of a healthy lifestyle because this is our engagement party and i don't care if i'm having cake for breakfast because i'm not doing it every day yeah and like right now this is what's bringing me health because it's bringing me happiness and joy but he was kind of like looking at me like this does not make sense and

I think that for me shows me like how far we've come in this generation it's so true we get there too I can think of so many examples of family events where I've gone and they've they might have said something to me and this is like recently this isn This isn't when I was, you know, in the thick and like being really restrictive around foods because I would understand it then because I probably would have avoided it. But like I'll go and they'll have all these like amazing treats. I might have a big cheese board and then like chocolates

and lollies and stuff. And they'll be like, oh, sorry, there isn't anything really kick here, is there? And I'm like, what do you mean? People say that to us all the time. We're like, no, it's balance. Yeah, that's it. But it is always the older kind of generation.

Yeah, and I think, like, I mean, obviously, I would just, like, not even think twice about that comment, but it does open up, like, an interesting conversation when people talk about or make past comments on what you eat, whether that's like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you're going to eat so much, or like are you really only going to eat that little and it's I think we need to stop making comments on people's food choices just like we make comments on people's kind of body types and or like wow you eat a lot for a girl like that's the like it's like that and it's

like what do you and then in that moment you're like it makes you it's like, what do you do? And then in that moment, you're like, it makes you feel shameful. Like, oh, no, I'm eating too much. Well, yeah. I mean, I can tell you now as someone who went through binge eating front and I know 100% was overeating like a lot of food and a lot of the time it was in private. But when I was mending my relationship with food and I might have like a kind of average size meal, I mean, average compared to what I used to eat. And then someone was to make a comment like that.

I'd be like so confused because I was like, oh, am I like, am I back there? Am I overeating? Like, so yeah. Yeah. Most of the time it's a very innocent comment. But for someone who is, who was like yourself in that like headspace, it can set them spiraling and thinking, oh my gosh. And I like one of the things, one of my TikToks that went really viral was talking about how you shouldn't compare what you eat to your partner because someone said to us when I was eating next to my partner,

like how our portion sizes were the same. And I was like, I'm equally as hungry as him today. You know, this is one snapshot of what we eat and also you don't know what I ate for the rest of the day and also it's not really any of your business yeah but I kind of briefly spoke about it to someone and it just like opened up this whole thing about like how women should always have smaller portions or choose certain things on the menu and you kind of shouldn't eat when someone else isn't eating. And I was like, where did these rules come from? We create these, I think it's wrapped up in probably how women have been oppressed and how we should stay like a certain size.

But I think when I spoke about it so openly, so many women were like, oh yeah, I always feel like I need to eat smaller than my partner because that's a male-sized portion because that's a male-sized portion. That's a female-sized portion. I think it's just so interesting. Well, waiters do it and they'll come and they'll assume. Like, they'll be like, oh, this must be. Oh, that's happened so many times.

This must be like whatever the parma or something must be for your husband. And then for you, it's like this. But it's like, well, what if they wanted to eat a salad? Because then that's also emasculating. I agree. It works both ways. Yeah, I agree. I can picture it now Josh

got my partner he got like a one of those green salad bowls with like poached eggs you know and grains and stuff and then I got a like a BLT or something toasty with bacon and egg and stuff and um they came to the table and didn't even say anything and just kind of put it down I was like yep stretch it over and it's not to say that that's what we always order or whatever, but it is. It's this weird assumption that the smaller meal or the greens must be. For a woman. Yeah, it's interesting.

I mean, we could talk about it all day. One of the other things I wanted to speak to you guys about is being in business with your best friend and also being female entrepreneurs and how that's been for you. I would love to have a business partner, but I don't. It's just me. And I think navigating that side of the industry as a woman can be hard. Like sometimes it's hard to get people to take you seriously because you're a woman and I maybe that's my unique experience but I don't know if you guys have had that also no it's definitely not I mean it's I think do you want to speak to best friends and I'll speak to the other the other way so even like the other day we got off a phone call and this was just infuriating I'm first of all being

mansplained like oh you must not get it it's like why must I not get it is that what it is? I think the line was there's a lot of numbers going around there's a lot of numbers in this conversation girls so girls, it's girls we don't call you boys we're having a conversation with like 40 year old men but we're 30 year old women

that run this business so don't call me a girl and they say like oh it's a lot of numbers. Like, do you understand? Like, do you want me to talk slower? No. If I needed, I would ask. But it's fine.

Like, we can understand the assumption that we don't. Or it's, like, often, like, some conversations we've had with, we're about to enter our first capital raise. Like, we've never, we've been bootstrapped to this point. And in some of the initial meetings we had like we go in and with some of the older men they'd be like before we start we just want to say good job girls like you've done a really good job to get to this point and it's like like why don't you pat me on the head like while we're at it and it's it's just

that thing that you have to go in and like feel like. What I hate is like you have to prove yourself. And once you start talking, I do find like often when we start talking, they'll then like someone's body language changes. So it's like they didn't take you seriously for the first 15 minutes and then they're like, oh, actually, like they know their stuff. They must run the business. And for us as well because we're the face of our business and we also run the business and we're also on social media,

which a lot of older men in particular do not take seriously because they're like, oh, they're just the marketing girls. But it's like marketing is very important. But that's kind of what we get. But I just hate that like we have to then, like they come into the room and we have to change their perception of us. And then they're like, oh, okay, now like let's keep talking. Wow, like you actually know your shit.

And it's like, yeah, we know our shit, but you should have known that when we entered the room like instead of having to like not take us seriously for the first 15 minutes so frustrating so frustrating is it this so it's the same over here yeah it is and I think like maybe not all women and I'm like if my hair was gray or when I get older and I have a few more wrinkles will you take me seriously then but I get the same it's like you know shall I explain this to you and I'm like I understand because you've just explained it to me like you don't have to repeat yourself shall I explain all of the signs to you like you don't respond and I think the comment of like girls or ladies or whatever it might be just drives me up the wall like but what's so interesting so

empowering is how social media has really like opened up this space for female entrepreneurs like I think if there's one industry that women are booming in it's that because they're being their own bosses and writing the rules oh absolutely oh absolutely um yeah I mean it's it is sad I mean we often also it's funny when you talk to the age thing because I think young men and like sure I'm sure some of them have felt uncomfortable in in rooms and stuff like that but from the those that I've met they're able to kind of walk in confidently and it seems like they're taken seriously straight away and you know they might be exactly the same age as us sitting in the same room so it is it is very strange and hopefully a behavior that um changes soon um but I think that's something that I try and like remind myself

of often and and it's it's not just for you know men in boardrooms and stuff like that it's really just in general I used to put a lot of you know I suppose pressure on like wanting to make sure that I I like looked successful or like I think because when I was leaving school and I was telling people that I wanted to get into the modeling industry they were like okay cool you're gonna have no future and like you're going nowhere in life so I was like sick so I feel like at the start there was a bit of a drive to prove people wrong and now it's like I'm really happy with what we do so it's so rewarding what we do. I'm really, really proud of the successes we've had

as long as we're good and we're proud of ourselves. I don't really mind what anyone else thinks, especially the older men. But to answer your question earlier about working with your best friend, and I don't mean to make you envious of having a business partner. Any of my best friends, I'd say. Because it is truly like I wouldn't, Kik wouldn't be what it is without our friendship

and I wouldn't be where I am in my life as a person personally and also in business with Kik without the friendship and without Laura's support, we have this, you know, weird way of understanding each other, you know, better than probably anyone else in life. So we can read each other so well. We know when something's off. We know that it's almost like you have this sense and you can just kind kind of even if you're feeling stressed yourself kind of snap out of it and just be the stronger one for that day and that's okay and um for us it's just been being really honest with each other throughout the whole process because obviously

as the business has grown the responsibilities are higher the pressure is higher um and you know we have a team of 20 now so so we're responsible for those people. Um, and we, we do feel that we do feel that weight on our shoulders. That's the scariest part. It's scary. Yeah. It really is. Um, so we're really lucky to have each other in that.

Um, and I think one thing that's also benefited us in our partnership particularly is that we've been able to identify our different strengths, you know, um, I think that's one thing. And if you are looking for a business partner you know um I think that's one thing and and if you are looking for a business partner try and find someone that the one thing you do align on or that you are really similar in is like your values and and what you want for the business and your mission that's something that truly we are so aligned on and I think it's because it's aligned with our personal values as well which is fabulous because that's that's where it can go really wrong if you've kind of got different things driving you um but then after that really you can be very

different people and it can and it can work because it is also really important that those especially in the early days when you don't have a team yeah that you kind of have those different skill sets and stuff as well but um yeah when we first started I remember so many people saying don't go into business with your friend and I mean you know we also didn't really expect we didn't even dream of it to get to what it is today but so grateful that we did it and you're a mum as well right yeah how do you find balancing work and being a mum and looking after your own health like is it challenging I'm sure it is yeah it is I think we're all juggling something um and when I talk about balance I mean my life's constantly off balance in something and that's fine I've grown to kind of accept that there's

weeks that you know we really need to dive into work there's a lot of really important things that get done whether it's like deadlines or there's some some trouble that we just need to be around and that's totally fine then those weeks I'm going to be working later and I might not get home for bedtime or we've got an early meeting and but usually it's something exciting if it's early it could be something global and that's fine too so try and spend as much time with my my son when I can and I try and really soak up the weekends but you know if we have an event on the weekends like it is what it is is my favorite saying um and then when I can I I will try and make sure that he's like prioritized

or time with him is prioritized obviously as my son he's always prioritized but I will try and make you know certain weeks or certain days at least within the week a little bit more flexible so that I can have that time and certainly being here has opened my eyes up to realize how much even like half an hour a day with him fills up my cup yeah um because it's been it's been really hard being away from him um so I think yeah I just make sure that when I am having that time with him it's it's super special one-on-one time I make the most of it and I just have to kind of accept it as a as a phase in life and I'm okay with that I think when I was really trying to put the pressure on having this like perfect balance where you know my fitness routine looked similar to what it did right having him and

then I was still spending every morning like one-on-one quality time with him and then you know feeling amazing at work it was way too much pressure like it was just because then the weeks where I did have to work late or I had to go in early I would just feel upset um and then I would if I'm trying to put too much time into Harvey I didn't get my workouts in and then I that mentally for me like doesn't make me tick and doesn't make me the nicest person I will say I like I feel like it's it's my outlet it's my me time and without that um yeah I'm emotional wreck so you do it's like some weeks are off off balance and that's okay and I just when I get the chance to move I'll move when I get the chance to be with him and prioritize that, I'll do that.

And then work's pretty consistent. But it's, yeah, again, having a really close relationship with my business partner is also very helpful. Laws has been really supportive in this journey and like neither of us have gone through this before. So it's just when I really, really need it, I'll talk to her about it and we'll work through some things. But it's also like flexible working now.

I'm sure it's the same here, but especially since COVID, our team's in the office three days a week. I mean, I find I'm a lot more motivated in the office, so I try and go in every day. But if I'm kind of needing to have at least an hour or more with him then I'll work home on Mondays and I'm still able to get some stuff done and hide away in the study and pretend that I'm not home but at least not have the kind of like commute to and from work and that's like my extra time with him on that day at least yeah yeah I mean it's so refreshing to hear that like so honest so honestly because you could just say yeah like it's perfect or stop it's not you know and I think for some people who maybe aren't like

don't know you that well don't follow you that closely might think oh yeah it's all well and good but I think there's a lot of like reassurance and people being honest and like listening to both of you on the podcast and you're a mum and you've been talking about your fertility journey and I'm a woman in my 30s also thinking about fertility I've just frozen my eggs and I have friends who are the same age as me or younger than me who have just had kids so we're all like going through like this new journey that none of us like really have ever stepped into before in our own lifetime and I think that like the fact that you're both like really successful and just holding each other up and just kind of like going through it together is like really lovely but how did you find talking about your like fertility and

exploring it was it hard to speak about it openly or i think for me it was just important to speak about it because as once you get married and i know this is australian thing everyone says like when you're getting pregnant it's like the first question and i think for me like i am i've just turned 30 and i think obviously for women it's like we have a biological clock like you can't fight it you can't do anything about it it's like it is what it is and it's also like in terms of like where i'm at with the phase in my life right now it's like we have a biological clock like you can't fight it you can't do anything about it it's like it is what it is and it's also like in terms of like where I'm at with the phase in my life right now it's like whoa kick takes up so much time and I can't right now see being able to have a child like it just right now in terms of like what I can manage mentally and it doesn't

mean that I'm sure I could manage it but I just it's like right now a choice that I'm making but I think it's also that kind of fear that if you sacrifice not having kids for work for your career or for kick right with this and then you then can't because you've waited too long and you know you might we never know what our fertility journey is going to be right until we start trying like i know that will be really that like that would be a lot of regret and i so it's something that i'm just i think it's important to talk about because we so often ask people like when are you having kids or like if they have a first kid when are you being a second kid like that person could be going through ivf yeah they could be on their like 16th round of ivf and that and not and i think for especially like women we and

no one ever asked like oh must be the husband or the partner they're like oh it's it's the woman it's like the woman is always blamed for the fertility things always put on on her or on them and um I think it's it's just important that we talk about it and infertility is it's so interesting like growing up through high school this is what baffles me like I went to a catholic school and I don't know if it was just my education or general but it's like you're literally told like if you have sex if you look at the other sex you will have a baby kiss you will have a baby like and I remember there was a teacher that was like they were they told me about someone they knew that was conceived that the um they're in a heterosexual relationship and the woman was on the pill and the guy had a condom on

and they were conceived. And so we grow up thinking that you will fall pregnant in one second because it's like avoid, avoid, avoid. And then all of a sudden, I don't even know at what stage, it's like this sliding door moment where it's like actually there's a 25% chance that if you fall pregnant you will miscarriage. And then like for most couples I think it's one year that it takes the if you fall pregnant, you will miscarriage. And then like for most couples, I think it's, it's one year that it takes support. That's the average to fall pregnant. And then also like just with infertility, like the other reason you have to be so sensitive

about it when we're talking to people and asking that question is that they could have been through the thing that I hate a lot is like, it's really inaccessible for people. So even like egg freezing costs around what in in Australia around $10,000 Australian dollars and then you have to pay for storage of the eggs and everything. And then with IVF it's about $10,000 a round and the first round some of it's covered by the government but it also depends on exactly the fertility problem that you have. And that is for some people like they might have mortgaged their house

in order to like try and have a baby and they can't have they've done it 10 times and they haven't got that you know that baby that they've always wished for so then when someone says like when are you having the baby it's like that to them they've going through so much pain behind closed doors so I think it's just important that we talk about it we stop putting all the pressure on the women and like blaming the women it's no one's fault and I think that's something that we do like a lot of women I speak to that have struggled with fertility like they feel like something's wrong with me like why can't why can't I do this

like it's like there's so many other women that cancer why can't I um but it's it's not it's there's nothing we can do to control it so yeah I think it's just important to talk about and especially as we go through like we were talking about it the other day like I used to think like my mum had me at 27 so I was like I'm gonna have my kids at 27 and and then I got there and I was like well I'm not ready like it's not and we're having kids like some of us like a little bit later and especially with career it's really hard in the years that we have like for women to pause your career at a time when you've kind of come through yeah you've had your experience and you've kind of finally like a lot of women are kind of getting to this point

where it's like you know i i could i could take my career to this next level but it's all it's in the same window as like well actually you've got to start thinking about having if you want kids this window is now it's it's horrible it's horrible timing and then we hold ourselves back in our careers and then usually if you're in a heterosexual relationship like in australia we've got a big problem with homelessness for women over the age of 55 it's like the biggest growing group because what happens is in heterosexual relationships usually the woman will stay home and be the stay-at-home parent she doesn't get super in that instance then also you then go back into your career you're 10

years behind your partner and you're then you're either not able to get a job or you go back to like a really low salary when your partner has kind of not sacrificed that it's like there's so much that goes into it and it's just it's hard because obviously as as someone with a uterus like you're the one that has to carry the baby. But it's so complicated. It is so complicated. Such a big question. It's such a big question. I think acknowledging the privilege around like having the choice

of when to have a baby because when I was freezing my eggs, I was like, you know, I'm paying for this myself. I acknowledge that not everyone can do this. And I was choosing my career over having a baby but also my emotional mental capacity right now yeah and I can make that choice and some people don't like that answer because it does feel unfair and I don't know when it comes to it whether it will happen you know you don't know until you try and I think like that's such an important point because as a doctor seeing so many people come through who've tried years and years of trying to get

pregnant naturally failed IVF and they see people who it just happens instantly and and you know crushes them yeah it crushes them so then if you're the person who comes unknowingly and says, you know, when's baby coming? Like, when's that happening? And maybe, just maybe they don't actually want children. You know, like... And that's okay. Yeah.

But I feel like it's this assumption, like, if you don't want children, there's something wrong with you. Yeah. Like, I remember when Steph and I got engaged around the same time and then you got married. My wedding was around COVID, so we were delayed. Yeah, we got in just before COVID. We were four delays.

The first delay was by us because we were disorganised and I was like, this has become too big. We need to scale it back out and we'll just think about it. And then like the week later, it was COVID. But I remember someone saying to me, like, send me a message, like, you must be so unhappy and jealous of Steph because she's got the perfect life. She's married.

Like, she's got a beautiful house and she's had her baby and you have had a cancelled wedding. And I was like, like, I was able to not take that person's shit on. I was like, okay, love, I'm fine. Thank you. Like, I'm actually. It's an interesting way to say the word. Like, it's not like you don't have to follow this path of like, you whatever school uni marriage like buying a house having a children child if that's what you want to do and like you you're you have the privilege to be

able to do that great but you don't that's not what equals a successful life no no i completely agree with you and i think like that comment just is someone who is equating happiness or success to like being with a partner or having all those things that are like milestones that we should strive for like I plenty of my friends don't have any of those I only got engaged three months ago and before that I was perfectly happy and in my eyes as successful as I wanted to be at that stage of my life and I think what I found the hardest thing is people constantly asking when are you going to meet Mr. Right when are you thinking about babies like what about buying a house like none of these things I had or have and I was I think that can create a lot of pressure on you because I don't

think my male friends are getting the same questions like when are you going to meet Mrs Wright when when are you going to have a baby like are you thinking about your fertility men aren't getting asked those questions no they're asked about their career and everything for us it's like we're going to travel women is like getting married and it's true when you think about it like I love my husband he's wonderful do I at all think that I've become more successful because i'm married or like absolutely not yeah you have to share your space with someone all the time obviously it's amazing and special but it's like you've you've it's just it's like you get to share your life with someone fantastic if you choose to do

that but it doesn't at all make us me more than anyone else because i am married yeah but it's so interesting that society puts that pressure. And also like Mr. Right, like, isn't that so funny that people ask that? Like, what even, what is that? I love that. Oh, this has been such a great conversation. I'm conscious of time. So I'm going to round up with three questions, which we ask all our guests.

The first question is, if you had an extra hour in the day, how would spend it oh with my son I thought you're easy yeah absolutely oh I bet you probably being reading or being outside that's nice yeah yeah yeah the next question is you're going to a desert island what three things are you bringing with you and they can't be people well everyone asked this question so I've just said they can be anything so some people bring like their wives yeah some people know the answer but they don't bring any people well i feel like i mean if it could be people or let's let's say like no people okay That makes it harder. Oh, gosh. I think sunscreen. That's cool. Trying to think practically in an island what's going to keep me alive.

What do I love? I don't know. The Twilight Saga, something I could probably read ten times over. And a notebook. But I need a pen attached to the notebook so it's really hard if it's not people it's hard I reckon I bring two books one fiction one nonfiction and then maybe I mean hot chips obviously I'm gonna stay hot for the entire journey but hot chips unlimited hot chips with extra chicken

salt by chips do you mean fries or like crisps fries fries fries yeah i thought you meant like i don't know like chili flavored chips nice and the last one is what's one thing you're grateful for today being here it's you know being able to travel again and yeah meet incredible people from the other side of the world is super special. Oh, 100%. And I think even like the past few days we've had quite big, quite busy days and then we've got community events at night

so we're kind of, and then because we're with our team so we're kind of waking up and we're on all the time. And I had a moment where I was like, oh, I just want an hour, like I'm so tired. And then I was like, hang on I'm we're in the UK with our business and like we get to today like come on this as I was walking here come on your podcast and meet you and so many of our community members like you have to like we have to meet and they love your podcast and I was like that's not like you're just changing that of like I get we get to

do this today and it's amazing because next week we'll be back in Melbourne and back into the normal routine of being in the office all day and I know I'll think back to this day and be like I wish I was more grateful for everything so yeah yeah oh that's so sweet well thank you guys for giving some time and your incredibly busy trip to come and speak to me thank you so much for having us that's all for me but before you go I've got a little favor to ask you and that is to please leave us a review and rating if you love the podcast and to please share this episode with someone you know will benefit from it too see you next time