The Food Medic - S10 EP5 76 marathons in 76 days and building the #1 running coaching app

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

In this episode Dr Hazel is joined by Ben and Joshua from Runna - #1 rated app for personalized training plans for running. This episode covers The story of RUNNA How Josh ran a record-breaking 76 marathons in 76 days Advice for new runners Different types of runs (tempo, interval, easy etc) and their purpose How to get faster at running Strength training alongside running Trainers and running kit : whats essential? Fuelling up before and during a run To try RUNNA for 2 weeks free use the code HAZEL at checkout https://www.runna.com/join (#ad affiliate) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Food Medic podcast. I'm your host Dr Hazel. I'm a medical doctor, nutritionist, PT, author and founder of the Food Medic. Today I'm joined by two guests in the studio with me, Ben Parker and Joshua Patterson from the personalised running app RunApp. Now if you follow me on social media you will already know about this app because I'm constantly raving about it and I'm always using it. I use it to program all my runs and prepare for all my races. And so many of you have told me how much you love this app, too. I also work with the brand in partnership and really believe in what they do.

So rather selfishly, I wanted to find out more about Runner, how it came about, get more tips on how to be a better runner and hear more about some of the crazy challenges that these guys get up to. Ben has spent over six years as a professional running coach and is also a certified England athletics coach, Ironman coach, personal trainer and Pilates instructor, as well as being one of the founders of RUNNA. In his spare time, Ben is a keen athlete himself and competes within his age group at Ironman events with multiple finishes. He also enjoys ultra marathons whilst holding a marathon PB of 2 hours 34, which is just so mind-blowing to me. Ben also recently qualified for the Ironman 70.3 World Championships. And we're also joined by Josh. Joshua is a four- four times world record holder

who has established himself over the last six years as an ultra athlete completing world firsts and breaking several records most recently he was the first person to complete a marathon in all four uk countries within 24 hours and the first to run a marathon in all 76 UK cities consecutively. I actually joined Josh on the last one and I'm still so impressed that he did 76 back-to-back marathons. Just let that sink in. And because of all of that, Josh raised just shy of 400,000 for Samaritans in his aim to help mental health across the world, which is incredible. So let's give Ben and Josh a big welcome to the studio. Ben and Joshua, welcome to the Feed Medic podcast.

Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you very much for having us. It's nice to sit down with you both in a formal capacity and have a, we'll chat all things running and all of the amazing challenges that both of you are doing to kind of start the podcast there are so many runners who listen to this podcast and a lot of people who want to get started with running a lot of people who are already on their running journey and I think we all have that like moment or that race or that first time that we fell in love with running

and I would love to start there and hear both of your stories like what was the moment that you became a runner do you want to kick that off because I feel like you've been running well you have been running so much more than me um yeah I guess like I well first of all I kind of grew up as a short fat kid at school and had like Jimmy was the slowest and least fit person at school and um if we had cross country at school I'd be the one who like pretends to be sick so I don't have to do it and I would always come kind of like last around the field um started going to the gym as I kind of reached the age at which you want to impress girls and look good um did that all the way through uni and ran the lacrosse club in my final year and as part of that

we kind of put together a team who did a half marathon um of which that that went that went well and i also met my now girlfriend and met dom our business partner at runner as well um doing that first half marathon and um yeah really enjoyed that process and have gone on to do a number of half marathons marathons and other running running exciting challenges since and you say a number of exciting challenges we were just talking about like how big the challenges you do are now and I guess it does just snowball sometimes when you get into running um Joshua your last year has been huge and we cannot not talk about it yeah it has been big so I don't know just listening to, though, what I would say about being exposed to Ben through running is just his absolute joy and love for the sport.

It's like a kid opening a present at Christmas, and that energy never diminishes. No matter how tired he is, it's so funny how, ordinarily, people most likely don't want to do something when they're tired like that's his go-to thing and i think being surrounded by that is really infectious and um i mean when i kind of got into running yeah it was what how many years ago now three years ago i don't know was it four years ago probably three to four yeah and um it all kind of came about when i i basically had been doing a number of challenges

in a wheelchair to support my best friend um who sadly had an accident that you know paralyzed him essentially and so i kind of focused on that for a number of years but it started to have effects on my body and i kind of was umming and ahhing about what i wanted to do to continue this like passion for raising money for charity and testing myself and that's when running kind of came to my mind because I hated it I mean the furthest I'd ever run was like a 5k and that would have been with my housemate at the time Jojo but I mean you know that feeling of like ice going through like your throat it was that and I could barely drink water and for some reason having really only ever running a 5K to then coming up with this idea at the time where I was like, you know what?

Let's try run every city in the UK. Put this message out to try find a coach. And that's when somebody messaged me and connected me with Ben. And what I loved about him, I think it was his age. I think it was the fact that he was new to this space. You could tell quite quickly how passionate he was about running. And then when I started to hear about what he did for fun and then witnessed it myself, he was the right kind of bonkers that I needed in my life.

Because when you come up with these ideas, you need someone who's almost on that level to understand kind of the why behind it. And also like the possibilities and with him it is very much endless and so yeah the idea of this past year you know finishing run for a million the 76 marathons in all the UK cities originally came from me basically talking to him about this and his reaction was so funny where never met me before and he's like hey bud I hear you want to talk to me about coaching what's your background and i said well i've probably only been running now for about a month yeah i think i think at the time at the time josh had said his longest run was

12k and then he went on to say i want to run during a marathon every city in the uk and i was like wow gosh we're gonna have to like even take a few years like in terms of like because we'll have to space them out kind of thing and he goes no, no, no, no. It was like 69 marathons in 69 days. Because at the time there were, there were 69 cities. And do you mean that is from someone who can only run 12 K. So they want to run a marathon. And I think at the time it was kind of like timeframe was like six months or

something ridiculous. And to the point where no one in their right mind would have like agreed that like that is possible. But at the same time, I don't know. it was tight and to the point where no one in their right mind would have like agreed that like that is possible um but at the same time i don't know i think there was just something about josh that was that was almost just like just trust me i can do i can do anything if i set my mind to it and i remember going and running that afternoon was doing someone who's now investor and runner and doing a really strong 242 marathon runner chatting to him about this crazy man i've met this morning um and he was

like well what did you tell him obviously it's ridiculous um and like i didn't have the nerve to tell him this is completely impossible and ridiculous so we kind of just got started um and there were a few road bumps along the way like like a lockdown which meant josh couldn't obviously travel up and down the country so he did a few other even kind of other exciting and crazy challenges in the the run-up which doing worked out to be almost like a brilliant training experience and a few other really cool challenges and then doing seven more cities got announced which made it even harder um and probably a good thing because otherwise josh wanted to call it the great british 69 which would probably have been a bit uh a bit problematic or maybe or maybe a really good thing um but uh but yeah then uh then yeah josh set off and ran

76 cities um starting february that is um mean, I was lucky enough to experience one of those marathons with you. Yeah. But how does it feel now that you've finished and how did it feel doing it? Yeah, I mean, do you know what? That's what I think is really special about this episode for me is the fact that that was your first ever marathon, wasn't it? Yeah. episode for me is the fact that that was your first ever marathon wasn't it yeah so you came to the final one and for me as a as a first marathon goes I mean I can only speak for myself with what that experience was like but for you I I was that a special one to be a part of I think

just in terms of like the broader community that came together I mean I was incredibly humbled I mean when I first started the challenge only one person came to Inverness a girl called Gemma and it was one of those things where imposter syndrome kind of kicked in I was like oh gosh we've announced this big challenge to try and unite all four nations and one person showed up like this is really not going to plan and then I remember turning the corner at Buckingham Palace not really having a clue what to expect and I mean there were hundreds of people there, weren't there? And before every marathon, we would do a prayer and a bit of a talk to every runner that came just to remind them of their why and hopefully to try connect that message. And the fact that we completely surrounded in the largest circle that monument in front of the palace was just like I'll never forget that

and I think the reason why that marathon for me was so special again was there just wasn't the desire to rush it nobody wanted to get it done no one cared what time we did it in just the amount of people that didn't know one another that became almost friends like instantaneously it was amazing and just running through the park and strangers like cheering and playing music and someone even just getting involved in it i just think for me that was just what is great about running and the why really behind so many of us do it but yeah i thank you i mean it was individuals like yourself that just made it so special for me to know that somebody wants to commit their first ever marathon or personal best or

half marathon to that particular day for you for me like it was very it was an honor you know it was really humbling what you were doing was so inspiring and everyone just wanted to support you in some kind of way but I do think unlike any other fitness community that I've been part of the running community is very, very welcoming, regardless of who you are, how, like, your experience in running, how far you can run, how fast you can run. It's just very inclusive. Yeah.

And even with the, like, surge of run clubs, our friend Johnny, like, now running the entire underground, everyone just wants to be part of that. So I find it hugely inspiring and obviously like you guys and you've you're co-founder of runner um so running is what you do like for your love your passion but also for your work and joshua you're now heavily involved in right now how did it come about like how did you dream up this app yeah no I guess it's like a almost like three little stories coming in together as one and um so obviously I'm I mean met Josh

three and a bit years ago and I mean that very much kind of helped elevate me as a coach as part of what I was doing in person running coaching a few session group sessions different kind of bits and bobs and gyms around London but also kind of coaching people online and obviously Josh documenting his journey training for all of these epic wild challenges and kind of showing that on social media helped I guess kind of elevate my kind of coaching and being a normal running coach there was only so many people I could support before I ran out of time essentially to deliver the quality of service that I was comfortable with of which I limited that to 40 online clients at the same time one of my clients, now co-founder Dom,

who I met at the Salton Lacrosse Club when I was at university there and did that first half marathon with me, he was one of my paying clients. He was training for his first marathon in the Athens Marathon. And he very much kind of came back to me and said, like he worked in tech at the time and very much said like, I mean, he could see the business kind of growing. I called it Ben Parker Fitness at the time um and basically suggested building an automated

solution to provide that same kind of level of service and um my honest reaction was almost like I've got to take this call on a Monday evening I'm busy and tired after working at the gym and whatever and I'll take the call and and the funniest thing about it was that I mean he kind of presented me as kind of like ideas and thoughts. And it really like you could see a path to like building something that would actually help people. And I thought I'd take that call and get back on with my busy life. And instead, it was actually like, no, no, we're going to catch up again on Thursday and here's your homework. And it was very much the case that he needed the kind of like running coaching expertise and knowledge to build into like the kind of automated path that he had found.

And so we basically spent nine months of our evenings. It started off as Mondays, then Mondays and Thursdays, and then basically every night of the week for nine months. And it kind of got to the point where we were able to build this solution whereby we had it on a website. It was called the Run Buddy initially. You came onto the website, you tell us all about the kind of history of running, how fast you are, what you're training for, a few other different pieces, and you put it all into the website, you'd tell us all about the kind of history of running, how fast you are, what you're training for, a few other different pieces, and you'd put it all into the website, purchase this plan upfront, and then it would be run through the engine and delivered to the customer 15 minutes later.

And at the same time, Dom and I kind of very much had very little resources to kind of elevate this, and as a result, kind of the connection with josh doing very much came in came in super early and now the um kind of director within within the business as well and very much helped us to kind of bring that to market and elevate it and over the first um nine ten months we were able to kind of help one and a half thousand people and and prove that this was something that people actually wanted um and then that was um yeah that led us to the point of raising our kind of first big round of external investment. So we sold kind of 15 percent of the business for half a million pounds to 304 different kind of everyday people out there wanting to, our earliest customers wanting to own a part of the business.

And with that money, we were able to develop the team a little bit more. And as a result, kind of hired some developers, app developers to move it from this website moving it to the app store and at the same time we rebranded as as runner um and and that was yeah 18 months ago and kind of since then it's been a an even bigger roller coaster really and we've gone from having well no customers to now 40 000 people who pay to subscribe to train with us in 180 different countries all around the world and we're also now the the top rated running coaching app on the app store as well so it's been a really wild roller coaster and um but i i think that the exciting piece with with the story really is that like i think that like we're only just getting started like there's a whole host of things that

we need to add and build to the service and um doing our our goal as as a business and as a team is to build like the go-to household name of running coaching whereby you want to train for any running goal whether that's like your 15th marathon or whether you want to get get involved and do your first 5k we want to be that kind of like go-to solution um that that works around all these different other complexities in your life whether that's your do you mean your sleep the stress that do you mean what stage of the menstrual cycle you're at? And all of these are exciting pieces that we can build into like the automated solution and also deliver this to people at a fraction of the cost of, do you mean what I used to

charge customers out as well? It's really interesting. We went to the National Running Show last year and a girl came up to me and was talking to me and she was like, you know, I'm really interested to get involved into something similar. Like, why is this company doing well and for me personally and I think this has taken many years and failed businesses and experiences to get to that point where it's the people you know when I look at Ben and Dom as business partners and you have to look at your you know your

strengths your weaknesses which all three of us have and I think what's great about the three of us in particular is that we are completely different in every way socially you know career wise I guess the journeys that we've we've we've gone down and I think that's great because Dom ultimately can do something I can't Ben can do something I can't and then I would like to think that I offer something that it's a case if they can't do and I think that's what works is it's not a case of we cross swords. I really admire the strengths that they have. I can learn from them and equally, hopefully they can learn from me too. But I feel like that's how it's elevated. You can all bring your spark to it. And it's been such an interesting journey, you know, for somebody like myself as well, you know, for so long, having done

these challenges, the first thing you get from people is, you know, do you have a plan I can follow? Is there a book I could buy? And I never had it. And in truth, would I have set something up myself? Probably not because of that imposter syndrome and confidence. So, you know, Ben and I were talking about things. And obviously Ben and Dom set up the Run Buddy at the time. And Ben and I had a conversation together, you know, really early on where, you know, him and I are quite similar in

certain respects though in the case where we just want this company to grow and I think it's because of our pure passion and love for the sport but also what it does for people and I think a lot of people might be driven in this industry to make a lot of money and their end goal is to sell something and be worth a fortune on record I can honestly say like we that's not our incentive i don't think we really care about that at all i think it just to receive messages from someone where this plan has affected their life or their family's life in some capacity because there is that like knock-on effect it's just one of the greatest feelings and i think running is something that so many people are turning to now. And it just it reminds them of what is possible because I think society really does.

I mean, I look at my daughter. She's six years of age now and she just has that limitless mindset. And as a parent, I'm the one who's constantly telling her, you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that. And unfortunately, that continues where we keep restricting people what they can and can't do. Now, of course, we have the best best intentions which is to keep them safe but i think by doing that we restrict i think that the the the ability of the individual of what is possible and i would like to think with this app that we've created we're giving that back to them because i mean to take someone for instance two years ago that we've spoken to who's just starting out their

first 5k and we'll maybe plant a seed and go have you ever thought about doing a 250k over five days and they're like nah that's that's crazy and you have a phone call with them two years later and they're like I've just completed my two my first 250k how was it it's life-changing is amazing and I just think if we can continue to do that for me whenever this company sells out if it ever sells out that's what i think him and i will sit over a beer and and look at and and yeah i think it comes back to kind of like the the piece that you said about like the running community is so welcoming and and everything you said there and i think that's because there's so many different ways that running can enhance someone's life it could just be physically it could be mentally and a combination of all

these different pieces socially as well and i think like with that in with that in mind it's so exciting to like work very hard every day on on building this thing that like means people in australia can find the way for them to run and achieve the goals they want in a cost-effective and accessible solution whereby they avoid getting injured and they can train for this 10k which might be a goal that they've never imagined doing and as a result all the people that come along and support you with your marathon and build this amazing community and all these other run clubs swapping up around London and the rest of the world like everyone coming along to them is doing super nice and doing builds this really exciting community because they've all got their own personal but fantastic connection with running and i think like um yeah

being able to just make make running easier for people to get involved in wherever they are in the world and reducing the barriers to entry rather than it being a doing a doing an expensive coach that might cost a thousand pounds a year it's it's now a subscription that's yeah um doing 100 pounds 100 pounds for the year and and hopefully we can only make it uh make it better from there so i think that's the thing in this space as well right is that how many individuals do we hear talking about how inclusive they want to make something and how passionate they are but how expensive it tends to be and i think that's a massive factor is that we have to we have to be accountable for that as a platform that profit is not everything to we have to be accountable for that as a

platform that profit is not everything I think when you start focusing on that a lot of people then I think as a consequence will be affected by it and I think running is for everyone so I think even plans that we've we've integrated on the platform like couch to 5k that are free for people it just I think it's a nice intro level to to running even like our team as well you know it's it's not something we we forced them to do but we we integrated a team run Tuesday where you know everyone all the tech developers come in you know coaches you know ourselves we all come together we go for anywhere up to a 5k run it could be intervals around the track and then we go for a nice lunch together and actually in truth there are definitely members of the team in the beginning

that are reluctant to do it because of actual fear of ability fitness levels or just lack of enjoyment within it and actually seeing how much they've progressed over a year and their love for it now where they've now been doing their first half marathon or marathon they've achieved a pb in some capacity again i think your environment is everything and i think that's what we're trying to create not just i guess with the customer but also internally with the team too that we create that safe and exciting space there's something about running that's very infectious and once someone gets a taste for it they realize it is it can be as simple as putting one foot in front of the other and i'm sure you're seeing this you're seeing it with your numbers on runner but there's such a

surge in running i see it with a lot of the people of a lot of our audiences there's so many runners actually recently did a survey on sports bras and breast health and found out that actually majority of people's primary form of exercise in our audience is running now which was really interesting for me because I thought it might be you know like gym based exercise or crossfit or something along those lines but it I think because running has that low barrier to entry I think like to get started with running you need to own an old pair of shoes yeah and and nothing else and and that's what makes this so exciting and like I mean like talking about runner as a as a business model as well like there are companies that have done this in the the

gym the gym space before automated that strength and conditioning journey, and also the same in the cycling journey. And you look at comparing the running journey to the cycling journey, cycling you need a multiple thousand pound bike, you need to have a power meter set of pedals on that, you need a bike computer to follow your workout. And as a result, like this same business model wouldn't work to the same level of kind of everything

that we want it to be in running. And obviously, i'm pretty sure i know that you run with your apple watch or or a different smart watch and doing we run with our smart watches as well and um with with that in mind like you don't even need that to go to go running like we're building the case that like the the value that you get of a smart watch it tells you how fast you're going it tells you when to do and speed up slow down all these different key pieces but actually like all you need is your smartphone connected to a pair of headphones or just shouting out loud at you in the park when to do all of those different things and we know we want to build runner to serve the

customers that have got those smart watches really well and improve their experience but also we want to make runner work for people with as little as possible and if all that is is an old pair of shoes and their smartphone like we want runner to work for them and i think like that's what makes it so exciting is because running running is such an accessible sport and um i guess so many people also look at running as like do you mean this thing they've learned doing growing up is maybe good for their health and they should go run around the block for 20 minutes three times a week and like that's maybe their like perception on running and that's why it's really really boring and then do you mean they they hear about runner they go and do a

doing a little free trial or something and actually realize that running could be so much more interesting than that as soon as you go and do some form of doing structured training you go and do an interval workout or a tempo session or you can find your local hill and do some reps on that it will be so much more fun and then you go and kind of like see your progress over the course of a few weeks actually realize you're finally starting to like get fitter and get closer towards that goal of a 10k or whatever it is that's then the thing that keeps you going and we know that exercise is addictive all the endorphins that are released whether it's in the gym or whether it's um doing running or any form of exercise you kind of put all of that together and and see that progress and it just

kind of feeds back into that and i think uh yeah really really excites us that it's yeah got such a low barrier of entry and i think that's probably why so many of your audience will be will be out there running as well yeah and I I agree with you in that like it all you do need is a pair of shoes and when I first started running which was I didn't start until the year I turned 30 so that was three years ago and I was that person with I was probably running in not running shoes in meccons or something and was using strava on my phone um i didn't have a watch or anything and i was fine i was happy um but i didn't love it and then when i started doing more structured training and like seeing my progress and understanding how to get better and how to improve my pace then it became like something i was really excited about

and kind of like chasing down um and you mentioned some of those different types of runs like tempo runs and interval runs and easy runs and i think within our community that's something that we use that language like all the time but for some people listening they won't have ever heard of that or understand the purpose of that and why you guys would use that in a runner program let's quickly run through those yes yes absolutely so you want to train for running goal like whatever that's going to be whether it's like a wild and wacky ultra marathon or whether it's during your first 5k or anywhere in the middle like we want to do a combination of different types of workouts um one because it's fun and more interesting than doing the same 20 minute run around the block forever but also because it

makes you mean a whole host of kind of different like physiological benefits to our body um so the first piece is doing what's called easy running um and like most people like always kind of when you introduce them to the idea that you need to slow down and take your running a bit more easily like that doesn't like logically make sense as a way to make you fitter um but what we want to do is spend a portion of our time running easily so that those workouts are less stressful on the body less likely to cause injury less likely to exhaust us so that the rest of the workouts we can then put all of our energy into them and really kind of see a better kind of physiological benefit from those training sessions um and with reference to those kind of sessions that we want to push ourselves a little bit more maximally that's where we would want to think about doing a bit of speed work and pushing

pushing harder and these sessions can be broken down into kind of three different main types of sessions so we'd have interval workouts we'd have kind of hill workouts which is a kind of a type of interval workout and also tempo sessions so by interval workouts kind of what we're thinking about there is running really quite fast almost as kind of as hard as we can and definitely had you kind of running next to me on the track and feeling a little bit uncomfortable um but yeah so a little bit yeah i was like ben i'm gonna be sick was that a tempo i know that was i think we do 400 meter reps that day uh was it no we know we did a drop set yeah yeah so we so that was an example of an interval session we started off with some 1k reps um so that's running

for one kilometer is pretty much as hard as hard as hazel could um then we had a bit of rest and so that we were kind of quickly recovering and then going into another interval of which the workout we did that day was a few 1k reps a few 800 meter reps uh 600 meter reps 400 meter rests and then a nice kind of easy jog to cool down but but intervals they can be any different kind of like length of interval and rest period based on the the level of the ability of the runner. So that's kind of an example of intervals. The hill kind of type workout is very similar, but rather than doing your intervals around the track or somewhere flat in your local area, you're running up and down a hill. And again, that's going to slightly change the ratio of the muscle fibers that are working

and again, challenge our heart and lungs as well. And then the third piece is what we call tempo running, which is very similar again to intervals, but it's going to be longer periods of fast running. And again, that fast running is going to be just a tiny bit slower so that we can do it for a longer period of time. And the ratio of which we want to do intervals, tempos and hills is going to change whether we're training for a hilly marathon or a really fast 5k. But yeah, any kind of like good training block of running, we should have a combination of these kind of different types of speed sessions, our easy running. And then also we want to build up our endurance and think about kind of like good training block of running we should have a combination of these kind of different types of speed sessions are easy running and then also we want to build up our endurance and think about kind of building up the the longer sessions that we're doing as well so obviously training for a marathon at the moment you're kind of getting a bit used to kind of

having these big long sessions as well that we've got to train for and when you think about maybe looking at a week of training on the whole and you've got these kind of maybe one or two speed sessions thrown in there a long a long long run on the normally on the weekend you're going to need to make those sessions easy in between them otherwise you're just going to burn yourselves out and as a result that's kind of like um the challenge is kind of building that that balance for each individual and obviously that balance is going to be very different to everyone based on what they're training for how much time they've got based on work life stress how important their running is it might be the case that running is just a a side piece of your fitness journey around the gym around around sport um and yeah that kind of

makes up hopefully a little bit more context on how we uh we plan the training yeah do you guys have a favorite type of run no watch no distance no time friends just somewhere it's just i just think this sounds contradict this is yeah this is a bit of a contradiction based on the fact that we obviously own a running app that promotes plans but I think it's about balance it's a bit like integrating rest days in so you're just not constantly like high performance the whole time for me as well so many people get into running because of their love for it and what it does for their mental health and I think sometimes just running to run and not running for a reason is one of the nicest things you can do and I think organizing something a weekend with some

of your closest friends whether that be running to a breakfast spot or if you're on holiday and you want to go do a nice trail run in a mountain somewhere to, you know, look at a beautiful ravine or lake, whatever it might be. I think just like taking that pressure off your shoulders, it's just it's a reminder of your love for it sometimes, because I think too often what I'm seeing is we're getting so focused on time and performance and we're forgetting about the enjoyment and fulfillment of it. Too often I'm seeing people getting emotional or upset at the fact that they've not achieved their PB or they've fallen short on a time. And if sometimes in certain cases have dropped out of marathons, you know, a couple of miles before the finish line because they're not going to hit that target.

And, you know, the amazing thing about running, like we've said, is the community, the people, the tens of thousands of people that are cheering on strangers and the people you can be so inspired by running either side. What's their reason for being there? And I think for you as well, for the fact that you've put so much time and effort into a single experience, if we want to put it that way, like that for me in itself is the success. So, you know, I don't I don't think we always need to prioritize what time we finish something in, in short. Yeah, no, no, fully agree.

I think, yeah, you've got to run for the love of it. And yeah, some people are motivated by, I don't know, winning or achieving a time and you've got to find your why and focus on that. But yeah, to answer your question, I think my go-to favorite pick would probably be pushing myself with some intervals um and doing that with a friend or having someone alongside you of which I've definitely

done a many many uh interval running session with Josh yeah so there's a story I tell about Ben that I think kind of stands out for me where this was like the early stages of him his and my relationship of him coaching me and um i like to surround myself with exceptional people and people that aren't quite from this planet let's say and it's my way of putting it and we did you've called him bonkers i mean like i know the story he's gonna tell and like it's not from this planet i'm like i don't mind i'm i like i'm i'm happy to know that I'm straight. So I had an experience like yours where we were on a track

and the plan was to run 2400s. I think this was the meatiest session I'd set up at the time. And it was hot. And I'm a good 400-meter runner. We weren't running slow, I would say. I was still finding my feet to understanding the mechanics of running, but we had a strong 2400 meter session and as i'm going to leave ben's changing his shoes and i was like

what are you doing and his sister and friend were coming to the track and ben intended on running the same 2400 meters for a second time but was going to run it at his pace so he ended up running 40 400 meters so ben and i i would say are very different in terms of our approach to running where for him that just wasn't enough you know and and by going a little bit quicker would fulfill him even further in that whereas i was ready to go back and pass out yeah yeah no i was a bit like we've done josh's training it's time for time for my workout now but um no i love it and just like the yeah like always for me like the way to keep me accountable to these things is like having someone else there and like roping in my friends to come and join turn up to the track as soon as josh is done is going to keep

me accountable to getting that in for me and i guess we've all got our own different ways of motivating ourselves and each other and it's definitely worth like working out what what that is for you and then and then keeping yourself accountable that way yeah I completely agree I think I'm I'm like split I like doing some runs with some people and then I also like the headspace of like if I've finished a long day at work like yesterday and then just going out for an easy run um but I do think like the harder or the longer runs it's nice to have someone with you because it can get a little bit long and boring yeah for sure um i do agree in that like it's nice not to focus on pace and things like that but one of the most commonly

asked questions i got asked when i said that you guys are coming on the podcast is how do i get faster and i think this is like the golden question and there's so many different answers a lot of people say you have to run slow to run fast a lot of people say you have to practice running fast to run fast what are you well i mean i'd be a an idiot not to say you need to follow a plan but uh but no i mean the the real answer is to to get faster you need to do it kind of exactly what we spoke about before you do a combination of all of these different things you need to make your easy run slow so that you're really fresh and energized ready for your fast sessions you need to spend time running uncomfortably fast

and do you mean let's say we're thinking about 5k something that most people can maybe like visualize whatever our pace is for 5k we need to run faster than that to get comfortable running faster than our 5k and then gradually build up our endurance at that speed to then be able to do that faster pace for 5k and a way to do that is to run for short chunks like an interval workout maybe a 400 meter kind of workout like josh was kind of sharing as an example you run for 400 meters you're going to be able to run a little faster than you can sustain for 5k take a minute take two minutes to rest and then and then do that again and if it's your first time thinking about running a bit faster you could do

that for between four or five repeats with two minutes rest between them and then you mean have a nice warm-up and a cool down and that's a brilliant workout and then over time you can extend that 400 meter interval to be 600 meters to be 800 meters and over time you'll be able to take that faster pace that's faster in your 5k and you'll be able to do it for 5k by building up the length of those intervals but spacing them out with some endurance sessions the longer runs putting easy runs between them and doing whether that's running on your own or running to loud rap music in your ears or whatever it's going to be like finding finding the thing that makes it fun so that you can work through that period of time and get better is the key and I think with anything we do in life whether it's getting better at chess or the piano

or running like the one thing that matters is that that you just keep doing it and therefore like the most important thing to get better at running is finding a way to love running and like the reason why Josh can do unimaginably crazy things like the reason why like I can run a marathon and the reason why you can run a marathon is because we found a way to enjoy running and keep turning up to our running for a long period of time um and as a result you you keep turning up and you keep doing the right things you get the right balance of your training um you're gonna do you mean accidentally get faster you do know what that yeah all those points are so true i agree completely and also it's it's like the small little things as well that add up.

You know, like what terrain are you running on? Is it flat? Do you live in a slightly hillier area? So, I mean, don't beat yourself up if you're not achieving certain times because naturally if you're running with a gradient, it's going to be slightly more difficult. So by all means, if you are following a plan and maybe if you don't always have a hill,

but there are hills where you live at times, going to a treadmill and maybe running an incline to adapt to that. Nutrition, like how you're fueling yourself through the run, can be really important. Sleep makes a massive difference to your recovery. And then from an expense point of view, you know, shoes can make a difference. You know, naturally, if you're just wearing like a generic pair of shoes,

that's one thing. But then I'm not saying that by buying the most expensive pairs, it makes a difference you know naturally if you're just wearing like a generic pair of shoes that's one thing but then I'm not saying that by buying the most expensive pairs it makes a difference but you know there are proven carbon shoes out there that will naturally help progress your speed by a percent for instance so yeah I think there's many many factors I think it's just one of those things where just the more you research the better the outcome I think the shoe point is interesting you guys must always be asked like what's the best running shoe and it's like very a very generic question and from experience i've never got on well with just choosing the same shoe as the next person and we all have very

different running styles different feet and different you know preferences it depends on your goal if you're doing speed work what kind of running shoe do you guys prefer to run in and do you have advice for people who maybe are investing in their first pair yeah well i think like the first piece is kind of recognizing that like we are all different like we're doing josh is taller than i am i'm probably heavier than he is like we're all different shapes and sizes and in the same way our feet are different shapes and sizes do you mean some of us are going to have wide feet some of us are going to have high arches and all the different brands will cater slightly differently some will be wider some will be more

narrow um so i think that like the first thing is to find a shoe that's like comfortable i think um personally you know the the kind of myth when you're you're you're a little person and you need to try on your pair of shoes and run around the shop and check they feel comfortable like i think a shoe should feel comfortable when you first put it on like if you've got a good pair of socks and you mean the shoe should fit you to start with you don't need to like wear it in too much in my in my opinion in my experience um and i think if you find if you if you find a you know brand of shoe that agrees with you just stick with it like the technology between do you mean all of the top brands is so so similar and so competitive these days that like do you mean you've got these doing

carbon shoe variations you've got easy shoe options you've got something in the middle of the road for more of your training and all the top brands have one of each of these different shoes they've got an extra supportive option and and as a result i i would really kind of like encourage someone if they find that they have a shoe that they like just to stick with it um and in the same way like i mean i do a lot of my running in hoka and i know josh does i used to do a lot of running in nike and i'll still do and use a few different options from different brands. But like when you find something that agrees with you, there's no need to change it. I mean, like the only other reason too is because the different brand launches something that looks cool and you want to try that on.

And that's also a very valid reason for choosing your shoe. And yeah, I think like there are so many different brand options out there. And the most important thing is that it it feels comfortable and agrees with you um if you're starting to get a bit more into your running and you want to have maybe a few different options that's when you might want to have like a do you mean a softer easy running shoe and maybe a slightly harder or or even kind of carbon type shoe for for racing and your faster training um but again like if you if you have something that agrees with you you probably want to stick within that brand because they're going to have very similar fits across their across their range um and again like yeah if you're something that agrees with you, you probably want to stick within that brand because they're going to have very similar fits across their range.

And again, like, yeah, if you're really wanting to shave those extra few seconds off your racing, whether that's 5K or marathon, and you've got that extra bit of cash to spend on an expensive carbon shoe, that's when you'd want to think about getting a carbon option. Yeah, I mean, this is a topic that I love. Is that sad? I don't know.

If somebody talks about running shoes, I get really excited. I don't know if that's my age. I can see you kind of like shifting the chair. I just, the pride Josh has knowing that like I'm wearing a pair of hokers today is like probably the first like two and a half years of this journey to date. Josh is like, just try to get me on hokers. And you saw me turning up in my Nike shoes shoes and got sad every single time i do i do i love this topic because i think shoes are it's like strength and conditioning training within running it's like

following a plan it's something that only now we're starting to recognize and it's something that is so important and like i said to you i don't mean in the sense that go out there and buy the most expensive pair of shoes that kip chogey's potentially broken a world record in it's just educating yourself with them and actually understanding like what i would actually say credit to brands now is that they will uh explain you know what category that shoe fits in and what distance that might most be appropriate for because the problem is if you just buy a carbon shoe and we see this quite regularly with with a lot of runners that come to our events they'll buy a carbon shoe and they will wear that carbon shoe every time they run but they'll also

wear it to walk around and they'll wear it to go to the gym it's actually like it could be detrimental to your legs to do that because a carbon shoe it's not natural for for your feet or your legs for that matter to sort of be it's not natural for for your feet or your legs for that matter to sort of be in that elevated position for a long period of time and i think a lot of physios are starting to see now injuries that are being incurred by runners because they're inspired by kip choge they'll buy the same pair of shoes they'll wear them literally on race day and then they sustain injury most of these runners probably will wear them once to break them in once a race day and then they literally throw them away.

I mean, it is, to be honest, probably shouldn't say this, but those types of shoes are the equivalent of single-use plastic. The shelf life on them is not a lot. Most running shoes have about 500 miles. A lot of these carbons potentially could have anywhere up to 100, 150, which isn't a great deal when you think about the level of running that we're intending on doing um i personally have only ever worn hoka but when people come to me you know naturally i think people would expect me to say hoka i love them because whenever i've done my challenges i like to think that that is testament to the quality of the shoe so for run for 1 million i wore the bond i ate 76 marathons and i didn't get a single blister the the only time i did is when my feet were literally a guy drove over a puddle and splashed me

and then my feet were soaked for an entire marathon. So they blistered, but bar that, they didn't. So for me, it's an amazing like entry shoe. It's really supported. There's quite a thick sole. So it takes a lot of the impact. There's a lot of cool shoes coming out there. And I think just don't be influenced necessarily

when somebody goes buy that shoe. For me, I think it's just trial and error and Ben made a really good point there where I think the the days of old where you could go in and they go oh by the way you know I'll take a couple of runs to break the shoe in so there was a guy who actually came to join me when I can't remember what city it was was it is somewhere up north and he was actually saying like that just doesn't happen now like when you put that running shoe on how it feels in that moment is how that shoe will feel so if it doesn't feel right then it never will so it is really important when you do buy it and and again i wouldn't buy the shoe online i think for me it's really important that if you are going to buy a running shoe go into a specialist shop some of them have treadmills that can do a quick test

just to to make sure that it is appropriate or at least just by putting it on you can get a feel for it too because for me it's it's one of the most important investments you know you're going to be spending a lot of time with that shoes you want to make sure it's spot on yeah we can tell you're passionate about it oh i i just do you know what i imagine me bringing this up on like a date or something it'd be really bad chat wouldn't it tell me something about yourself i love running shoes but i do think that it can be overwhelming for a lot of people and also running kit in general um right now because i'm training for a few races my dms are largely where is your running vest from which shoes are you training in what watch

is that like it's all running kit and i think you can end up spending a lot of money or buying things that you don't need so what do you think is like the basics that you need if you're a runner and you're preparing for doing longer runs i mean i'll share my kind of like go-to kit list and you can you can share yours but um i mean i would say like the fundamental piece we need doing a good pair of trainers and like just if you want to save a little bit money get something in the middle of the road just an everyday trainer and that's perfectly good enough to do all your racing and for most people doing your first marathon you don't need the expensive necessary carbon shoe if you've got a bit of spare money

doing the splash it on on that extra kind of marginal one percent on speed um doing a really good pair of shorts is going to be absolutely key like the last thing you want to do is you go get chafed and doing as a bigger guy like i'll definitely make sure i've got a bit of like what's called chamois cream just to kind of put between my thighs if my shorts are going to ride up and um yeah something that's really key and at the same time i like to carry any gels or fuel in kind of like the pockets of my shorts. And I always try and get something where I can get the phone either behind my butt or down my thighs. So it's not just like jumping around everywhere. So, yeah, a good pair of shorts.

And then, like, I want a pair of sunglasses and some headphones and not much, not much more to it. I personally don't like running with something too too constrictive like around my chest and instead i'd rather just like quickly nip into a corner shop and buy a bottle of water if i'm like doing going far enough that i'm going to need to take on some water or or maybe even just running loops around where i'm going to be and leaving a doing a bottle and some snacks en route um is kind of like my go-to options and and then alongside that i like to run with a garmin watch to kind of keep track of all the data so i can put it back on the runner app and put it on strava as well yeah i mean each their own i mean for me personally when it comes to this you don't need any of it you really don't like if you want to run a distance and you are deeply passionate about it

and there's a why behind it you're going to complete it it makes no difference what you're wearing it's it's nice like it's not of course it is i mean you could run a marathon barefoot if you wanted to we've seen it happen it's lovely for me it's luxuries yeah everything is a luxury because when you look at tribal men and women and what they have to do every day just to get milk and water they're not wearing brand new shoes they don't have really nice shorts on and vests and sunglasses and caps and i think that's the problem with consumerism now is that I'm seeing it on Instagram. People head to toe are just in the most luxurious sort of like materialistic items. And the problem with that then is that peer pressure of like, this is what I need to look like for running.

And this is what I need to wear for running in order to run well. And I think the problem with that then is that it's like subconsciously, oh, gosh, I don't have the shoes that I wear for running in order to run well and I think the problem with that then is that it's like subconsciously oh gosh I don't have the shoes that I wear for running or oh my god I don't have the right shorts and then you that plays on your mind when you're running of like oh I would have done so much better had I had that and so for me it's like listen if you if you have it great but if you don't I think just focus on the distance and up here for me the mindset with any challenge I ever do this is the most important thing, because what I've come to realize over the years is that it never goes your way ever. And so for me, you kind of have to strip all those luxuries away.

It's great to have them. But if you don't, that's cool. At the same time, you know, Ben made really great points. You know, if you're going into it like with with rationale like why do I need these shorts is it because they make me look good or is it because it stops chafing I'd rather go for it stops chafing I this is me learning from experience I remember going to Sri Lanka and I picked my entire outfit based on how cool I thought I'd look and I didn't take into account it was 39 degrees and 100% humidity right I wore all black I didn't wear a desert hat nor did I even buy one because I thought it looked stupid I regretted that decision

on day one it was the worst thing I'd ever done I was having to like improvise with different things and it humbled me it kind of woke me up to actually prioritize the practicality of things I think not the aesthetic yeah no that's a really important message um but it is nice to see more brands considering runners by having pockets and things because most female running shorts actually don't have any pockets so you have to have an extra belt yeah i think like it kind of goes back to like do you mean as you said like so many people kind of like doing following you and kind of engaging with you on social media are all interested in your running journey and i think we're in this like really interesting position in time where like we've been through this kind of covid period of

like everyone's gone outside done their exercise outdoors and massively grown the running market the cycling the triathlon all of these outdoor sports are so much more popular and as a result the brands are very much kind of learning from this and wanting to cater to this kind of very much fast-growing market and i to cater to this kind of very much fast growing market. And that gives us this amazing opportunity building runner. But also at the same time, it means all these brands like they want to serve the runners best. They need to kind of think ahead to what runners need when they're going on a run. And I'm sure 90 percent of people go running and carry their phone, whether it's for not getting lost or having their Apple pay or wanting to take some photos on route or whatever it's going to be.

And as a result, you don't want to run around carrying a phone it's not comfortable necessarily put it in your arm and those things fall apart and it's just an extra thing that you need to go and buy and whatever so just having a pair of like shorts where there's a built-in pocket for your phone is like for me just like the absolute must in in a pair of shorts and like whether it's putting my phone in it or in a race i won't carry my phone and i'll put some gels in there like um i think like yeah that's a very much a an essential piece and it means you're not constricting your chest as well when you're running especially through the heat of summer as well so there's actually really like there's a really poignant moment for me about a year ago when we did our first mental health marathon where

there's about halfway through the marathon there was a lad and every time he came through the checkpoint i just heard like this scraping and scratching noise it was so loud and i just was like for a number of laps i kind of just thought to myself like am i am i the only one listening to this this is crazy and then i started to point it out to people being like what i think he's wearing spikes and people like what are you talking about mate we're on concrete and then when he actually stopped for some water I went over to him and I just said bud can I just check your shoes quickly and he did he was wearing spikes he had probably three in one and two in the other and this wasn't by choice

this was just down to this is all he had and I said to him do you do you want to keep running what you know and he was absolutely fine it made no difference to him what shoes he had that was the only thing that he was given so he would continue to do that we did replace those shoes immediately just because for me I did not want this lad to get injured but again it was such a wake-up call to the fact that this guy didn't come going I need to look the part he was like I'm just going to make the most of what I have and for me that was a really humbling experience and a reminder yeah yeah it is a really important reminder and like we we kind of have pointed out like you can make running as simple and as basic as it needs to be or you can make it as extravagant as you want it to be um to wrap up the podcast i

would love to kind of hear what your next challenges are or are you taking a break from challenges ben i know you're not because you're telling me you're going to italy to do a well yeah i guess like my calendar is frightening i guess like for me like the the the real main challenge is like turning runner into really what we want it to become. And like with that in mind, like we want it to be this solution where, do you mean, we give everyone the experience of, do you mean your flow app to get your sleep data your stress data your menstrual cycle data and all of that automatically feeding in to your runner app and and building your training as a result so the challenge there is you mean raising rounds of funding growing the team and um yeah runner very much kind of like now sits a little higher up the priority list for me than my training um

and as a result it therefore becomes a bit of a a challenging web to fit in time to travel and do ironman races and bits and bobs but um how many ironmans have you done this season well i'm doing my first full ironman of the year on on saturday in italy uh which very much looking forward to but i've done a few half ironman races and was how many events have you done this year well that's a bit of a different one this is what cracks me up is when ben goes well yeah when ben goes i'm really struggling to fit them in and yet he's on like his 26th event of the year his 14th country what he's done in six months most people do in a lifetime

and that's him taking it easy I was in Finland two weeks ago for the half Ironman world champs and then did the London duathlon the week after that and then yeah out to Italy next week well sorry out on Friday to then race on Saturday but sorry what day are we on now today on oh yeah out on Friday to then race on Saturday um but yeah so kind of do that alongside uh very much trying

to take take runner to the next level but uh very much not as uh not as crazy as Josh's next challenge but also you know we we are runner like we're the ambassadors of the brand and I think people are so inspired by what you do Ben and I focus on different distances and so we connect with different demographics and it's not a case of that's the only incentive to do it but ultimately the more people we can connect with through the things that we do hopefully more we can draw to them understanding the mechanics of it and how they can improve themselves you know people will often ask when when i'm doing a challenge you know are surely going to take a break now you're done like is it sustainable the thing is number one I love it this isn't like I'm just putting myself through hell you know I

absolutely love what I'm doing because I'm so passionate about the why and it gives me purpose it fulfills me as a person and I get to test myself in different environments and for me family's everything not just my family but like you know my business partners the team that we're building the team that I put together for each challenge like I'm so close to them because I show my most vulnerable side the highs and the lows we experience in them together it's a really powerful thing and um for me what people really need to understand is that you know I have a team of specialists that I've put together that are working tirelessly to make sure that I am the most prepared I can be going to the challenge to make sure that I'm safe when doing it. And then the recovery element post challenge is to a T so that in terms of longevity, you know, it's endless.

So for me, it's not a case of like I plan to do a challenge a year and it has very much been like that but I think if an opportunity comes up and excites me and I feel like we can impact an individual's life or a community then for me that's all I need I mean there is actually I told Ben yesterday I'm about 95% sure I know what the next challenge is I can't give too much away because we still need to finalize things but what I can say is if it goes ahead it's going to be in a different country and it's going to roughly be 80 kilometers a day for 20 days oh wow and uh pretty hot as well yeah that will be a very very cool challenge yeah yeah it's in cork oh amazing okay guys so our round of questions if you had an extra hour in the day how would you spend it oh i would love an extra hour in the day uh i would definitely go cycling

i think like i love running i love cycling so much but because all day every day i think about runners running everything that that that is it means that like running does feel a little bit like work and um cycling is the um the other side of that and i mean i still get the same endorphins of exercise but um no stress to it and i think it's a nice way for me to unwind and uh we'll be uh looking forward to my little cycle home and whizzing through richmond park on the way home from today how about you josh oh that's such a tricky question annoyingly we don't really live that close to a beach but i think with an extra hour it would give me an opportunity to to drive to a beach to have a like a swim i'm i was born on the coast so like for me the water is like it's

everything yeah it just lifts my mood immediately and so when i'm back home i swim every morning in the evenings and that's just something that the city lacks yeah i'm yet to convince josh to start swimming in the thames with me uh i'm a little bit further out of out of london where it's slightly less toxic water but uh yeah josh doesn't know i don't want to do that no that's not enjoyable um okay the next question is if you're going to a desert island what are three things that you're bringing with you? Ben's like a bike. I'm just thinking, like, if I'm bringing my Garmin,

then I'm going to need my phone to upload it to Strava. If Strava counts, is that all three in one? But no, you go first, Josh, and I'll think of my three pieces. A tool to create fire. So practical. You're going to cause a forest fire on the poor island there'll be nothing left a banjo i can't play the banjo though that's someone's wife someone's wife that's such a good way to get in whose wife oh we're on this island together who knows how long we'll be here for oh that's such a good show my girlfriend would like it if i asked to bring someone else's wife who's the next question is whose wife would you take

and someone used the category of snacks i was like just all the snacks and there are other snacks wait so snacks is one thing or do you know that you have to pick three different snacks i love that just yeah i would take a fight some fire like little fire tool, some candy kittens probably, because they're pretty beaut-suites, and a photo of my daughter. Not just your daughter? Well, no, because, you know, I'm stranded on the island. We've got to dramatise it a little bit. I guess also, like... Also. Your poor daughter who's then also stranded on the island.

I love my daughter, but... We're just candy kittens to sustain her. Well, no, I'd take those away because she'd get hyper I love my daughter but being stranded on an island with her would be a nightmare okay well one thing that I would definitely

bring I lived and worked in Greece for two years and I would bring a windsurfing kit so I'd have a nice time no boat's going to come past your island and think that you're

like stranded or worried at all you've got to buy windsurfing wait wait it's not a bad thing to be stranded on a desert island

this is a goal to one day become stranded on a desert island and when I'm on my island I want to have a windsurfing kit what happens if it's

mating season with all the monkeys and they come at you what are you going to do then with your windsurfing kit well I won't be mating with the monkeys

I'm not saying you're going to mate them I'm saying if they come like if they try and attack you what are you going to do to defend yourself I'll windsurf away

you just took a 24-hour windsurf until this so I think I think windsurfing kit a barbecue um and my oakley sutro so I don't get sore eyes and I will have a very nice time and I and I hope someone's drowning on my own one day this are the longest quick fire questions I've ever done. But okay, final question. At a barbecue. That's quite good though. But like, the barbecue, you don't even need to make fire. You click the button and turn the gas on and you've got your fire. Where's the gas?

Well, that's my barbecue. My gas barbecue. Some barbeque leaves for breakfast. Hopefully if it's plumbed into the mains then I don't even need to run out and I can just keep going further. So good. Okay, final question. What's one thing that you're grateful for today um and we also can't choose someone else's wife either right um no um my my my answer

would be that like i think just like almost coming coming back to the kind of like telling the little story about run i like i feel like i'm in this kind of like crazy whirlwind situation where i've met josh i mean josh has got enormous exposure to people out there doing co-founder dom smartest guy i've ever met like putting all of these three things together and we've kind of built this initially teeny tiny business as a way to kind of just like reach just a little bit more than my doing 40 online clients and now in this position we've got 40 000 people all around the world training with us and like we've got 20 amazing people working in the runner offices in voxel. And it's just this crazy, surreal, wonderful experience. And you feel super lucky to be in the middle of it.

And you have 19 people smarter than me in the office and somehow get to be in charge of half of them. And that's a really amazing and very lucky privileged position. And hopefully we can keep taking that to the next level. Yeah. Can I fire three quick ones? I know it's only meant to be one yeah one would be my daughter's healthy i feel grateful for that every day because i think we see too often like the reminders of like what what the outcome could actually be so thank you to whoever you know played a part in that i'm thankful that

i have a second chance at life you know having struggled so much with my mental health and thirdly you know as a person with no qualifications and you know possibly undiagnosed ADHD I just feel so grateful to be a part of and to be building this brand and to have an opportunity to basically share all the strengths that I have into this business to hopefully succeed one day with the goals that we have well thank you guys for coming in on the podcast um I'm sure you've inspired lots of people to take up running if not like take their running to the next level with runner I'll include all of the details in the show notes and if you

guys want to signpost everyone to your respective pages well yeah no thank you very much for for having us um yeah check out runner on instagram runner underscore underscore coach or www.runner.com um and then i'm ben parker fitness on instagram and i'm joshua patterson underscore jp and we'll stay tuned for the next challenge. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having us. I hope you enjoyed this episode

and it's inspired some of you to pick up running, sign up to your first race, or sign up to RUNNA to step up your running game. I'll include the link in a code below. If it has, do let me know on social media because I absolutely love to see it and it absolutely motivates me to get out there too. So that's all from me. Before you go, you know the drill.

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