The Food Medic - S4 E1 - Imposter Syndrome

Episode Date: May 8, 2020

Welcome back to The Food Medic Podcast. On this episode Dr Hazel sits down with clinical psychologist Dr Jessamy Hibberd and author of the Imposter Cure, to chat all about Imposter syndrome. Please note: This episode was recorded LIVE at the life lessons festival at the beginning of 2020 prior to social distancing measures. Let us know if you loved it by leaving a review and a 5 star rating! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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exclusions and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Hello and a very big welcome back to the Food Medic podcast. For those of you who are new around here, I'm your host, Dr. Hazel Wallace. I'm a medical doctor working in the NHS here in London, and I'm a registered associate nutritionist, founder and author of The Food Medic. In this podcast you will hear from leading experts in their field who share evidence-based advice on how we can live healthier lives whilst cutting through the confusing information that we find online. We are now in season four which absolutely blows my mind but it brings me so much pleasure to be able to come back to you and bring you another incredible season with some

amazing guests. I think it goes without saying that this season is going to sound a little bit different and if you listen to the prelude episode on COVID, you will know that I'm recording from home and respecting the social distancing rules. But it does mean that the sound quality might be a little bit different. But I promise you that the quality of the content will be just as good, if not better. So as this is a new season, I also want to do things a little different and change up and expand on some of the topics and themes that we've explored on previously I'm particularly interested in women's health and the gender bias that exists in health care and I feel like it doesn't really get that much air time so expect a lot more in that of this season and I'm also

really passionate to explore not only physical health, but mental health too. And so what better topic to launch the season with than the topic of imposter syndrome? Just a flag, guys, this episode was recorded live earlier in the year at the Life Lessons Festival before we went into lockdown. So again, the sound quality is going to be a little bit off, but I promise you it's an incredible episode and a huge thank you to Dr. Jessamie Hibbard for joining me on stage. She was a dream guest. Without further ado, let's get into the episode. Do you ever feel as though any moment now you are going to be found out? Do you ever feel that you aren't really as good as people think you are? Or that you have to work extra hard to keep up

the pretense that you know what you're doing? The good news is that you're not alone and it doesn't have to be this way because clinical psychologist Dr. Jessamy Hibbard is here to give us the cure to our imposter syndrome. Enjoy guys. Without further ado, let me introduce my guest who I'm really excited to have here. Please put your hands together for Dr. Jessamy Hibbard. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. No, of course. You've written a book called The Imposter Cure and the imposter syndrome or imposter syndrome may or imposter syndrome,

may be something that not everyone's familiar with because it's a relatively new term. What are the signs of it, and what actually is imposter syndrome? So, imposter syndrome, although it's something that we talk a lot more about now and feels very current, was actually first described by two clinical psychologists, Dr. Clance and Dr. Imus, and they described it as a phenomenon in which people believe that they're not worthy of success and they've got a persistent belief that they lack skills, competence or ability despite a huge amount of evidence to the contrary. And the way I think about it is that it's a faulty belief. So, you know, if you're doing something difficult or you're trying something new, it's natural that you're going to experience some discomfort. And it's how you interpret that

discomfort that's key. And the reality is that we all feel it. It's just uncertainty and it's kind of, you know, wanting to do well at something, but not quite being sure if you can do it yet. But imposters interpret it as meaning they're not good enough and that it must mean they're a fraud and they believe that if they were confident or you know other people might just feel absolutely fine about it and never feel that instead of recognizing that it's part of being human and I suppose in terms of how you recognize it well if you've got imposter syndrome you know you're an imposter. So it's quite difficult to see it in yourself. But if you are nodding your head to any of the following, then chances are you could be experiencing it. So do you believe you don't

deserve your success? Do you worry that other people will find out that you're not as competent or capable as they really think? Do you feel like a lot of your success is down to external factors like luck? Do you find it hard to take on board your achievements? And do you tend to think of others as having it way more together than you? So how prevalent is imposter syndrome and does it affect women more than men or certain age groups? Well, in terms of how prevalent it is, I mean, when I was writing the book and people said to me,

what are you writing it about? And I said imposter syndrome. The most common response I got was, I think I've got that. Is it normal? And I think that it's seeing that you're really not alone if you have imposter syndrome and yet that's what it tells you. And I read this wonderful anecdote recently about Neil Gaiman, the author, and he talks about how he went to this gathering of all the great and the good,

and he's thinking, you know, how do I deserve to be here? And then he gets chatting to this guy on the second or third night about, amongst other things, their shared first name. And this lovely elderly gentleman, also called Neil, turns to Neil Gaiman and says, I just look at all these people and I think, what the heck am I doing here? I just went where I was sent.

They've discovered amazing things. And Neil Gaiman turns to him and says, Neil, you were the first man on the moon. I think that counts for something. And what I love about that is if Neil Armstrong can fail imposter syndrome, no wonder we all do. Amazing. Now, how we experience imposter syndrome is very different to one another.

And one of the things that you talk about in your book is how we experience it depends on our competence type. And there's five, I think it depends on our competence type. And there's five, I think it's five different competence types. Would you be able to talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, that's exactly right. And so Dr. Valerie Young, an expert on imposter syndrome, studied lots of different people who experienced it. And she discovered, as you said, that depending on how you define competence

depends on how you experience imposter syndrome. And what she discovered is there's five different types of imposter. So the first and most common is the perfectionist. And she describes the perfectionist as a work-based difficulty. And it's what you'd expect. It's that anything less than perfect feels like failure for them. So anytime they're not doing things perfectly, they feel like they must be a fraud. And although, you know, to us, they look like they're doing

brilliantly, in their own mind, they're not reaching their own standards, which is why they feel like an imposter. The second is the natural genius. And for them, they think about competence as something that they should inherently be good you know in terms of their ability and their intelligence so if they struggle with something then they presume it's because they're an imposter and often this group of people have been they're often very bright at school they probably found things easy and then they get to a point in their life where it's a bit harder or other people are as good as them and they don't feel quite so special and it doesn't leave any room for learning and building your skill set which most of us recognize as part of learning anything. The third is the soloist and they believe that competence only counts if you've

done it on your own. So to prove their worth as an individual they don't want the team to help. If they ask for help they see it as a failure, and nothing counts unless they've done it completely on their own. The fourth is the expert, which is somebody who defines competence as knowing everything. So again, it doesn't leave any room for not knowing or for learning.

And the expert's likely to have several degrees, or say they want to learn tennis, they'll have 10 lessons before they play a game with anybody and again they don't leave room for the fact that you might be able to learn on the job and the last one is the superwoman or superman and they're like the perfectionist on turbo charge so for them it's about being good in multiple areas and excelling in multiple areas so they're not just good in work but they want to be a brilliant partner an amazing parent you know a brilliant volunteer good at cooking and it's about how many different things they can juggle and excel in that makes them feel like they're

doing well enough and if they're dropping any balls then immediately it makes them feel shame and and feel like an imposter do you think it's important for people who are coming to accept the fact that they may have imposter syndrome to recognize which one of those competence types they kind of are aligned to in order to address the factors that are maybe holding them back? Definitely. And I think that often people find they fall into more than one of the categories and that just knowing the categories exist can really take away some of the shame because if someone can come up with five different types of imposter then you're definitely not alone and I think by identifying

which one you fall into it gives you more chance of beating it because like you say you're recognizing you've got it but also it gives you a choice point rather than just going along with the fears and maybe avoiding things or slipping into habits of you know overwork you can actually take a different approach and try and disprove those fears yeah I think when I think of myself personally and how I've experienced imposter syndrome and there's definitely one or two types that stick out in my head that I think, yes, I definitely fit into those categories. There's been times where I have thought, actually, it's not imposter syndrome. I'm just a really hard worker and I need to be a hard worker in order to get where I want to be in life. And one of the things that you talk about in your book is how people see it as they consider,

well, maybe it's an advantage. Maybe I need to use this in order to excel in my career. Yeah, and as you'll know from the book, I think about that as the myth of imposter syndrome. And people definitely give me those excuses and I've been guilty of making them, particularly the hard work one myself. And the reality is that it isn't what keeps you humble. It isn't what makes you work hard.

That actually it makes all those things far more difficult because the research shows that you're much more likely to feel anxiety, it makes it much harder to enjoy your success, it means you're less likely to put yourself forward for things or try new things that are outside of your comfort zone. And in my mind, I think, wouldn't it be better to be, you know, working hard, doing well, and actually being able to enjoy those things without the cost of imposter syndrome to your health and happiness. And that we're not all going to become very arrogant or stop working hard. It's not imposter syndrome that makes you do those things, it's you. And people who experience it tend to be very conscientious,

very hardworking, to have many achievements. It's more about seeing you as the person who's done that. And even in times when we are successful or we do achieve something that we've been working towards, we can fob it off as something as just luck or being in the right place at the right time. Why do we struggle so hard to realise that actually that was because we put in the work

and it's because we have worked hard for that and we're talented and all of those things, we don't really see our own success and appreciate that and kind of give ourselves praise or accept praise. Is that something that is just innately human? How do we get over that? How do we kind of recognise and accept praise? I think what you've captured is exactly why imposter syndrome keeps going, that you can do these brilliant things,

but actually you have two rules for how you judge those things. So when you have imposter syndrome, you see anything that goes well as down to external circumstances, like you're saying luck or good timing or the team, whereas anything that goes wrong is seen as a personal failing.

And then the strategies that you use to kind of keep imposter syndrome hidden feed into it more so you're likely to do one of two things either really overwork or avoid and procrastinate and probably a mix of the two and I think there's other things that feed into it too and the three things that kind of spring to mind are one there is some truth to it so actually luck does play a part and good timing is part of it having a good contact can be helpful but that's such a tiny part of it it doesn't explain the rest of it you've still got to kind of get your foot in the door and your place there stay there and by putting it all down to luck you don't get a chance

to take that on board and the second part is that as humans we are naturally threat focused so thanks to survival of the fittest we look out for the negative far more easily and again if you take a second to think about something really good that happened how long did you spend thinking about that how much do you go over in your heads how much might you talk about it with other people? And then think about the opposite. You know, if something difficult happens or embarrassing or something goes wrong, how much time do you spend thinking about that?

How much time do you go over it? How much time do you spend talking to other people about it? And so, again, you don't get that chance to connect to success. And I think the last part is the expectation you've got for yourself so you know I'm one of three if you said to my parents who's going to go and do another degree they'd be like definitely not just me so when I went on and did the clinical psychology doctorate and then wrote the books you know like you I thought well I've just worked really hard and I've been lucky and it took writing the book to kind of see that

again those are the excuses that we come up with when it doesn't quite fit with what we expect for well, I've just worked really hard and I've been lucky. And it took writing the book to kind of see that, again, those are the excuses that we come up with when it doesn't quite fit with what we expect for ourselves. And it's about really seeing your part in things to be able to overcome it so that you can see that as something you've done rather than, you know, external circumstances. Yeah. One of the things you talk about in the book

is how you can use bluffing to your advantage. And I was quite shocked reading that because in my head, bluffing is almost like being dishonest with yourselves and with other people, because why would you bluff yourself somewhere if you're not able to actually deliver? And, oh my gosh, what will happen if I do get myself into this job and then I'm not able to deliver or perform to what they expect me to do can you explain your reasoning and kind of the psychology behind that yeah so when I talk about bluffing it's definitely not advocating or completely lying or being you know blatantly dishonest and saying that you're skilled to do something that you've got absolutely no experience in doing the reason i put it in the book is because i think that people who experience

imposter syndrome tend not to feel very good about themselves and they're very bad at putting themselves forward for things unless they're absolutely sure they can do it and the thing is they're playing by different rules because most people feel like they know enough just to go for something and they're confident to i don't know send their CV off for a job even if they've only got 50% of what counts and so in a way I'm just trying to push you up a bit to see if you're in a meeting your boss is talking about something that you know is a project that you could be part of and you've done similar projects but not exactly the same one you've got a few theories of how you might do it you can still say yes to that and trust that you can get there and that you've got the foundations already in place not that you'd sit in the meeting

be like I can do it and you've never done anything like it yeah and for you personally is it that you experienced imposter syndrome or is it that you were found that clients that you were seeing were experiencing imposter syndrome and you felt this is something that I really need to talk about because there's not many books that have been written on this and I think like we said earlier while now it's a bit more in the forefront of our minds I think a couple of years ago not many people would be familiar with the the phrase yeah I think it was a combination really and it's certainly something I see a lot in my clinic and it was also something I was seeing more and more in the media and people talking about it more and more

and I certainly have experienced imposter syndrome and when I first ever did an event like this, before doing it, I was thinking, they don't know that I've just come from home, not done about five things I'm meant to have done today and that I don't really belong here. They're seeing me as more than I am. And so writing the book was personally really rewarding as well because it gave me a chance to explore something that I treat regularly in my clinic, but I also gained a lot from it personally too. And I think that although the research is so

long ago, when they first researched it, they did think it was just women who experienced it. And it seems like it's only more recently that people are talking about it again and also that the research shows that it really doesn't discriminate in terms of you know it affects people from all walks of life from students to CEOs not just in work and your relationships and your confidence as parents and so I think that there was just so much there that drew me to it as a topic and whilst people are better at knowing what it is I didn't feel like there was much in terms of what you can actually do about it and it's all very well knowing what it is but that's not enough and so writing the book felt like a way to show people what they can actually do to feel differently

yeah and that's what I want to ask you next so for the people who are listening in the audience and think well I actually recognize myself in that story what can we do from a kind of a practical point of view how do we start unlearning those things that we've been telling ourselves all of the time I'm not good enough I shouldn't be doing this job I'm not cut out for it those kind of things how do we start undoing those thoughts there are lots of strategies in the book and I think part of undoing it is seeing that you know a bit like if you were learning to drive you might read a book about driving but when you actually try and drive it's quite different so it's about making practical changes and the first step is seeing

that you've got it and being able to externalize that voice and see that that voice is actually a bully it's not your voice it doesn't have your best interests in mind and just because your you know mind tells you're an imposter it doesn't mean you are one your thoughts aren't facts and the next step to that is then building up an evidence base that shows a different view and also that allows you to connect to your success and something I write about in the book and I've had really lovely feedback on that people found really helpful is to write a CV of all of your achievements and all of your accomplishments from work you know so job title changes or promotions or salary increases projects that

have gone well but also in your personal life too. So difficulties you might have overcome, things that you're really proud of in your personal life. You could ask friends to contribute it too. Generally when I do it in the clinic, I get people to do it over a week because you start writing about it and then more and more comes as you think more about it. And then once you've got that list to really read through it and look back at everything you've written down. And I think it can be helpful just to think as you've got that list, to really read through it and look back at everything you've written down. And I think it can be helpful just to think as you're reading through it. You know, if I read this about somebody else, then what might I think of them?

Or if I showed this to somebody else, what might they think of me? And another one I like is to imagine, you know, when you were 18, if you could tell yourself what you're doing now, what would you think? Because so often we have these goals and then our goalpost shifts as soon as we get there and we never quite take on board how well we've done. And the final thing that's a kind of simple thing you can do is to really push yourself out of your comfort zone. And by that I don't mean all the time because it would be exhausting but more in terms of seeing that where we started in terms of that self-doubt that we all feel and that we all experience it's not just you who's feeling that and by seeing that self-doubt is intertwined with confidence and stepping out and doing new things or trying new things you get a chance to build up your idea of what you're capable

of and see that you can do well at things and stepping out of your comfort zone is really good for your health and happiness as well yeah i think i love that cv idea but i can imagine sitting down and actively doing it it's very uncomfortable to face the things that we often don't see in ourselves in terms of what we can do and what daily practices we can do to kind of drum these new ways of thinking and be more compassionate to ourselves, are there any kind of daily practices that you use with clients or that you practice yourself that, you know,

we can implement kind of seamlessly into our lives and start to build habits? Yeah, definitely. And my motto is, you know, what you do every day makes the biggest difference and that it's not making a huge change but it's looking at what you've already got in your life and trying to use that to your advantage and so in terms of changing your focus and trying to see the full picture of your life rather than the bits you're unhappy with it's not just writing

that cv because like you say it's really uncomfortable and it feels awkward even when you're just doing it on your own with nobody else knowing about it and so to get more practiced at that and better at taking those things on board it's about shifting your focus in your daily life too so that you talk more about what you're doing and you know rather than people saying how's things you just tell them about the things that are difficult or say nothing talk a bit about the things that are going well particularly with people who you trust and care about and also I think it can be really good and something I like doing myself is just taking a moment in the day and noting down the different good things that have gone on and not just in terms of work but my home life too and

things that I'm pleased with how they're going or something nice that's happened so you're just shifting that focus to take in the fuller picture because when you focus just on the negative I always think it sounds a bit strange but if it was a picture you wouldn't know what the picture was of so I'm not saying just think you're brilliant never worry if things go wrong I'm just saying look at what's actually there so that you can see yourself for what you are and what you're capable of. And all the time, really, it's trying to build this new evidence base about the reality of what's going on in your life.

So rather than basing it on that feeling that we talked about in the beginning, you're starting to, for example, track things and say, okay, I was worried about how this would go, but actually the project went really well, everybody was pleased with me, and noting that down and taking it on board so that you start to say, OK, I felt like that last time,

but it was all right, and even though I was nervous, I was so pleased I did it, and having a bit more information around it. Because I think that so often when you're worried, the worry's drawing everything out. Yeah, that's very true. You share lots of case studies in your book. Are there any that stick out in your mind that would be a really good kind of example to share

of someone who's been really paralysed by imposter syndrome, it's really affected their life, maybe their work, and how they've kind of come full circle in the things that you've done to help make them realise that actually they are doing really well I suppose rather than a specific case study I would say that something that I've seen a lot as a result of writing the book and kind of talking to people about it is just how much we strive for perfection in our lives now and I think perhaps part of the reason that imposter syndrome is more talked about is because whether it's in your life at work, whether it's in your life at home, we set ourselves a really different standard of what we expect from our lives than we used to. And that means that you're often aiming for perfect. know it has a negative impact it's not necessarily feeling that bad all of the time because you get

this payoff of doing well sometimes other people being impressed but you forget that it's also having a really negative impact in terms of the pressure it puts on you and that it gets harder and harder to reach the standards that you're setting and so in terms of what I found in the book is that people really starting to see that it's about accepting life as it is rather than going for this perfect ideal or you know social media covering this all the best bits and not showing any of the times when people might fail or when they might struggle with things or the you know three things that went wrong before it went right and just leaving a bit more room to see that there isn't a right way and that you know

there isn't this perfect route through life where you can live your best life never make a mistake that there's so much more to be said for being vulnerable and just giving yourself a bit more permission to try things out and approach life without this pressure to know everything and always do well yeah do you think social media has a part to play in that kind of highlight reel and creating the illusion that people are doing everything juggling many things spinning many plates and doing it with a smile on their face yeah definitely and I think that people you know if I think about say writing the book I didn't put the three books that didn't work out on social media and oh this one didn't work out I did put the book that worked out on social media you know

but it doesn't give a true thread of the fact that mistakes and failure aren't separate to success they're part of it and I think everybody is guilty of putting all of their highlights on social media and that's a really nice thing to share and I think that there's so much good in social media in terms of bringing groups together who feel the same way or like with your feed or that evidence base of what actually can help and make a difference

but there's still this it's so easy to compare and that when you're scrolling through it it's so easy not to think about all the other stuff that's going on for that person and to compare yourself as less than yeah do you have any tips for people who may feel like sometimes they get into that cycle that's going on for that person, and to compare yourself as less than. Yeah.

Do you have any tips for people who may feel like sometimes they get into that cycle of using social media as a comparison tool to kind of break that cycle and move away? Yeah, I think that it's seeing that it is a highlights reel and that everybody's putting their best self on there. But I also think it's really carefully managing who you follow, and that the research, again, shows that it's not a bad thing

if you use it consciously, and you're on it, and you're thinking about what you want to look at, and you go to the accounts that make you feel good, or that you learn things from. But if you're on it, and it's one of those days where you're just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, then your mood will reduce, you're going to feel feel more anxious and that's when those more unconscious thoughts come in that make you feel much worse about yourself so I think it's hard to do but you know having

breaks from it and using it to bring you close to people who you care about or who you believe in the same things as rather than as a kind of stick to beat yourself up with yeah and that can be very difficult to recognise sometimes but like you said it can be a very powerful tool for the good not always for the good though thank you all for coming for listening

for sharing your thoughts and a special thank you to Dr. Jessamy Hibbert for giving us her time and expertise and knowledge. It's been really insightful and so interesting. But that's all from us. So thank you so much. Big round of applause.

Thank you. Okay, guys, thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review and a five-star rating if you love what you're hearing on this podcast and don't forget that you can hear from me over on social channels at thefoodmedic and on my website thefoodmedic.co.uk if you're interested in grabbing a copy of my books you can grab both online and on amazon the food medic and the food medic for life and please do send us a tweet instagram message or facebook message if you have some suggestions on who or what you would like to hear next on the podcast. Really hope you guys enjoyed that episode and I can't

wait to share the rest of the season with you so make sure to tune in next week when we've got a brand new episode. See you again next time.