The Frank Skinner Show - Ebs Burnough

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Director Ebs Burnough pops into the studio to talk about his new film, Kerouac's Road: The Beat of a Nation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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it is Ebes Beno. Who's that? How dare you? You'll find out soon enough. He's a big-time film, Honcho, so, you know, it's going to be good. Follow the podcast on X and Instagram. You can email the podcast via Frank Off the Radio atavlonuK.com and ask for WhatsApp.

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We've got our whole array, Ebes. Okay, so Ebs Beno is it. The reason he's here is because he's made a movie about someone I love. And so I went to see the movie on Monday night, and I thought I want this man on the show. Ebes, who are you? Tell us about yourself. Oh, gosh, I am Ebes-Bernow.

I grew up in America. I grew up in northern Florida. So it's kind of like the north part of Florida and the southern part of Georgia. So it's very southern part of the United States. And then I went off from there and went to uni in Chicago. And then I lived around the country and worked in politics in America and lived in D.C. And then moved to London and the rest is history. Frank, he's so self-deprecating, worked in politics.

Yeah. You worked at the White House, Ebes, okay? I did. I worked at the White House. I did. I don't know how much you can tell. But you were a personal advisor to Michelle Obama. Yeah.

And does that work like she says, Ebes, I'm going to Cuba tomorrow. Any advice? Luckily, no. It was more, but, you know, we worked together on the 08 campaign, and then we also worked together in the White House until I left just before the re-elect in 2012. And so I started out as her political director. So I was the person that got all the responsibility to say, okay, we're going to design a plan that says during the campaign, you've got to go to Texas, and we're going to meet with the, you know, so-and-so who's running for governor,

and then we're going to pick up, you know, fundraising money, and then we're going to fly to Alabama, and you're going to do this kind of a rally, and then we're going to talk to these people, all in the hopes of building a coalition to elect her husband, president. So you're like a tour manager in a while? A bit, a bit. You're a bit of a tour manager.

I mean, there's a big team around. Well, actually, we had a small team, but you have the kind of the person scheduling and advanced director who really is the tour manager, and then I'm just the person, I was the person that kept making everyone's life a nightmare.

You know, I was more the person and that was like, oh, and by the way, we're going to also have to fly to Chicago. And they're like, well, it's not, like, that doesn't go in order. We can't get there. It's not so easy, but, you know. But that's every tour. That's every tour. Me and Pierre are both stand-up comedians.

We're both two together. And there's always that, the zigzag thing, has gone wearing off tonight and south tomorrow. But, yeah. During the term, did you work with, or were you overseeing Michelle Obama, sort of healthy eating campaign? I went in then, and I'd gone from, because, the first lady didn't have a role for what was called political director. So the president's office had a role for political director.

The first lady's office didn't have a role for that. And so I ended up getting this title that was called Deputy White House Social Secretary. I'm so jealous. Which for me. That sounds like you laid the table. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what it sounds like.

And I was kind of like, I had worked in politics for a long time and grown up in political family and I was like, I have no interest in doing this stuff. I'm not choosing the teacups. I have no interest. When you said I want to work for the party, they completely misunderstood. But in the end, I ended up being the person who threw all the parties and designed the concept and worked to figure out who got invited. Wow.

And worked closely to figure out also the politics of who and when and why and what we were doing. Who didn't get invited? They still are talking about it. There's a long list. I won't tell you the names I used to be called. Look, if we don't talk about this film. I'm going to be more upset than Ebes. Can I just give you a bit of background?

Actually, let me just tell you about the team. This is Emily Dean. She's from journalism. She was an editor at large. She worked in fashion. She was a TV producer. She's also a child star actor. Okay, this is Pierre Novelli.

He's South African, but it's okay now, Eves. We're letting your people into a mirror left and right. Come on over. You've decided that we just have specials. We can eat the fruit. No, it's fine. And he's a medievalist, historian, and a stand-up comedian,

and he's written a best-selling book about his own autism. So, you know, we're a mixed bag here. Love that. Now, this film is about Jack Carrowack. Can I tell you very briefly, before I hand over to you, I was in New York just hanging around, doing nothing to do in the daytime. And I went past, this is probably 20 years ago, I went past the public library

and there was a big exhibition called Beatific soul and it said Jack Kerouac on the road and I thought I've heard of this like I'd heard of Hoot Gibson but I didn't know who you're looking like you haven't heard of Hoot Gibson

and I'll explain later and I went into this exhibition and it would not be exaggerating to say that it changed my life I knew nothing of Kerouac this was an exhibition of his notebooks, his manuscripts, stuff about his life.

I went out of there. I bought on the road immediately. I read it was in New York. I have never looked back. I love Kerouac. And I know there are brackets after every person who says I love caroac in 2025.

Why did you make the movie? I made the movie because I was an unlikely person to make the movie in some ways. You know, I'm black, I'm gay, I was fascinating. I read the book for the first time when I was 16,

and again, growing up in this very southern part of America near Tallahassee, Florida, it was, I remember reading it, and I remember people in class being really moved by it. And I thought there was beautiful writing, and I thought it was fascinating.

But even then, you know, 30, some, you know, almost 30, year, 30 plus years ago, I didn't feel the freedom to go on the road in that way, because where I grew up, even then, if my mother and I took a road trip, we might drive from Tallahassee down to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, where my grandmother lived. And there were still certain places along the way that you didn't feel safe stopping to get fuel. You didn't feel safe stopping to go and have lunch. Do you mean if you're a black person? Yeah, totally. And, uh, you know, It was, so when I read it, I thought it was this really interesting book, and I thought, what must that feel like, that freedom?

And so when this came along over time, you know, you look back now, you know, 30 years, and I said, okay, well, I'm curious about Jack Kerouac because I had made a decision in my head about who he was, which was wrong, by the way. I had the wrong man. But also I was curious about what it was like for all of the people who couldn't feel comfortable going on the road in 1957. So, you know, women were, you know, the pill hadn't been created yet. So a woman on the road in 1957, if she were a free, quote-unquote, woman and wanted to do what she liked, you know, there was a lot of danger in that for women, people of color, you know, a variety. So the film for me was about, by the way, I'm Catholic, what is the birth control pill? He has a good question. I'm sorry.

How many siblings do you have? Oh, we've got a house full. So that's what we were doing. That's what I really wanted to do. And so that was going out and trying to identify new stories of people who are on the road today who couldn't have gone then, as well as, I don't believe it's about taking anything away, but as well as telling Kerouac's story, which is the story of an immigrant. I mean, he is Franco-Canadian.

He doesn't speak English until he's six or seven years old. He, you know, it's all not served up to him on a platter. He goes on the road for the first time, not because he has time on his hands. He goes on the road because he's trying to figure out how he fits into this country where he feels like he doesn't belong. Can I say thank you for the first thing about the film

that you didn't incorporate jazz music? there's a lot of debate about that not for me but for other people I love everything about jazz except the music ebes and when Kerouac's writing about

jazz is fantastic when I first read the book the next step was I got some Charlie Parker music he writes about Charlie Parker like a religious like he's a god and I really tried with it

but I just can't take to jazz and anything I see about Kerouac I'm braced for jazz you know what I mean? And you avoided it. Well, that was a big decision. It was a big decision. I love jazz, but I felt like what would be, you know, some of it's about bringing things

into a new century. What's the music of today? What excites people? And by the way, he was high as a kite. So, you know, I'm not saying he didn't enjoy jazz, but, you know, his being pumped up on speed and the beats of jazz only encouraged all of those things in his head. So as much, you know, I don't think we have to stick to jazz just because someone was, you know, floating above us all while they were listening. Yeah. I think he liked it. Oh, he definitely loved it.

There was the thing. I met Ebes after the screening briefly before he was whisked away by someone more important. I'm never. And you're wearing the same jacket you wore that night. And it's a beautiful jacket. I actually, I don't want to be your social advisor. But I wouldn't have worn it for a public interview. you because I didn't listen to you for the first three and a half minutes. I was just looking at the jacket. It's just denim. No, it's got art on it.

He's new to the ways of fashion. He's got a little light on it. I wore my Alexander McQueen jacket today as just to try and pay a homage to this, you know, the cool denim jacket look. Adorable. Yeah, so. Cool denim goes a long way. Yeah.

So anyway, it looks great. And yeah, so I love the film. I thought you said it's a not you're an odd person to make it in a way like speaking as an old white guy I don't think I could make a film about how much I love Kerouac because there'll be too many people saying how sure you love because you forgive him being I mean he's phenomenally sexist

I was going to say is he quite that's the one thing that's slightly when you're at every woman is it's all about whether you can see a thigh or whether you can you know, whether he has sex with her that night and stuff. But then he goes to the opera, and then he writes the most poetic passage. And I was saying to Ebes that the effect it has on me, when I read on the road and I go outside the house,

everyone I see seems to be beatified. They seem to be interesting and special. And I care about it's a very Catholic thing. You didn't really dwell on his Catholicism. No, but it was a strong factor in his life. And, I mean, then he goes on into Buddhism. I mean, he's a, but his mother all remains very Catholic. And she is, of course, like many of you Catholic boys.

She is the dominating figure in his life. But no, it was a big part of who he was. Yes, for sure. Can I ask, how do you become a film director? Oh, it's a good question. How do you become a film director? I mean, I think you pick up your phone. And you turn on video or you start shooting.

That was the first thing that I started to do. I mean, my first film was about Truman Capote, my first documentary. Well, Emily absolutely loves. I'd be honest, I haven't seen him, but Emily loved that. It's one of my favorite documentaries. Oh, thank you. I mean, I love him anyway, in a sort of love-hate way, because I appreciate he's very troubled,

probably not somebody you'd want to be friends with, much like Jack Carrowack. But you know what fascinated me? It was only as I was watching this, So I realized that connection. Because am I right, Eves? Wasn't it Truman Capote, who said of Jack Kerouac, that's not writing, that's just typing? Yes.

What do you make of that? Why did he say that? You know, they're two fascinating individuals. And Capote probably said that because he was probably, frankly, just couldn't bear the fact that Jack was having so much publicity. And, you know, by the time the book came out, Capote, book. You know, Kerouac's book, All the Road comes out around 57. Breakfast at Tiffany doesn't come out until 58. So Truman is still a darling of literature,

but he's just hating that this guy is having his moment. And, you know, he knows that he's got reportage deep in him. Yeah. I think the reason I asked the question about the film directing is because you've done big jobs like the White House, and you worked, I think, for Estelle Orders as well, This doesn't sound like a guy who's eyes is on the prize

of being a film director. Did you just say one day, well, I've done that? What next? I was lucky. I was lucky. I grew up in a family that was had a lot of people really involved in politics. That was a big part of life in our family. And I also grew up around a lot of people

who were involved in theater and film and that sort of thing, more theater than anything. And so I went to university and I studied plays. political science and communications, but I also was a theater major. And so I always had this kind of passion for film and storytelling. And that was really, at a certain point, for me, was a lot of different politicians that I worked for, and then certainly being at the White House, and then leaving and launching

this company with Aaron Lauder that's associated with Estee Lauder. And then all of that was storytelling. So at a certain point, I read a book about... You finally read a book. I finally read a book. This is funny. I read a book about Bill Paley, who founded CBS. Right.

And it's a huge tome. It's like 800 pages. And I remember I was like, am I reading? I'm not an audio book. Is he married to one of the swans? Yes. He was married to Babe Paley. Yeah, but if you'd made that book into a film, I wouldn't have gone.

You wouldn't have gone out. I so would have gone. No, but, well, it's actually the jokes on me because Ryan Murphy basically made that book into a mini-series about, you know, Truman Capote. and his swans. And I finished the book and the two people that were the most interesting

people in the book because Bill Paley built a big corporation, you know, cutthroat, rich, old white guy, great, loving. The wife, fascinating,

and her short little gay best friend whose work I had always read, fascinating, and how they were more of a couple than she and her husband, and that's what made me

really want to direct the film about Capote. So who's your name? Next, dead white guy writer. I'm off men. I'm off men for a moment, and I can't say it yet, but we've got, it's a documentary. There are two big projects coming. One is a documentary, and it's on a female musician, though dead.

Okay. You said in an interview that growing up where you grew up, you could connect with the Southern Gothic of what Truman Capote wrote. What do you think, Carriac is the first road trip guy? if Truman Capote is the sort of founding stone of modern Southern Gothic, not, you know, at Granite Poe or whatever. But is Kerouac the road trip?

I think Savantis was the first. Savanties might have been the first, first road trick. I mean, we could argue that one of those apostles might take a fact. First petrol road trip. Yeah, I think definitely Kerouac for sure. It was Moses, you're right. Moses was mad at the point.

What a road truth. Not with that staff. I mean, you can't get the staff nowadays. It's hard. It's hard. I have to defend. Or maybe Noah. Yeah.

That might be the first real road. And that was more like a caroan. There's no real destination, only a spiritual destination. And all sorts of people getting in and out of the car or off the boat. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, Neil Cassidy, I should say, is a major, major figure. I don't know if you guys have read on the road, but.

It's a love story in some ways. He meets this guy, and it's, in a way, it's a study of hero worship. And it's the sort of unreliable narrator, because you think, why do you like? He's a terrible guy in so many ways, Neil Cassidy. In the book, not called that, in the book called, Remind me, what's Neil Cassidy's name in the book? Dean Moriarty, yeah. And everyone says he's a monster and all that.

And yet, it was almost like identity theft. The beat writers, they met this guy, and he was a really unique individual. And they drained his style, is the way he thought about the world. They took all that and sort of left him as a bit of a husk there, I think. Yes, I mean, I would say there is an element of us always remembering how old these people, like youth. You know what I mean? And there's something about when you're really young, just like I think part of the passion of reading this book when you're young.

It's, you know, reading it in your 40s, your 50s, your 60s, your 70s onward, is very different than when you read it for the first time. And you're 19, so to speak. Can I stop you for one second? I told a friend there much, I love Kerouac. And she said, oh, I used to like Carrowack. You should have grown out of that. It's a sort of J.D. Salinger thing.

Well, there is a, no, and there is a J.D. Salander quality to it. And I think for them at the time, kind of like when you date all of the wrong people in your 20s. Still doing it. Nah, I didn't grow out of that. But, you know, you suck. You suck that energy, that bad girl or that bad boy quality. Yes. You suck it out of them because it might not naturally be a part of you.

And so you want it to be something that you're adjacent. to. And I think, and Neil Cassidy was so out there, so compelling in that sense of like, you know, this was a guy who was literally like jumping in and stealing, you know, he was a car park attendant and would steal the car and take you across the country on a road trip and then like not think twice about it. But that's why I could fall for him because one thing I can't do is park.

I am the worst parker ebbs I mean I've been driving for 50 years and I still parallel parking is beyond me there's this there's a sectioning on the road when he talks about he's doing what do they call that parking when you park for someone the person arrives at valet

and he could jump in a car he could reverse into a tight space at 40 miles an hour he'd jump at someone was getting out of their car he was docking underneath their arm and already driving their car away. He is a dynamic, if dangerous, figure. Completely. And the book is partly, I think,

for every second when I'm thinking, oh, man, you write so beautifully. You see the world in such a beautiful way. There's always bits when I thought, oh, I would never do that. That's a wrong thing. That you are exploiting people. You are robbing people.

It's a real weird journey, the book. It's a weird journey, and it was a weird time. You know, we're talking, a book comes out in 57. He was on the road for, you know, seven years. Yeah, but he was on the road in 40s. Yes, he was on the road. We didn't the youth culture existed. He was on the road in the late 40s going.

And it's also, you know, there is an element of, again, coming of age. Everybody, it's, nothing is new. You know, we always think that this whole process that we're living through is new. And, you know, if we go to the graveyard, the best story. are there, and most of the time they can give us some guidance on what we're going to go through because the story has already been written in one way or another. We should say about this film, it's not just the story of Jack Kerouac. It's the story of three other people who are going on the road.

That was a big decision to my shoe link. Yes, it was a very big decision. I knew from the beginning that I did not want to do a direct full biopic of Kerouac. That just didn't. And so to me, again, going back to who were the people who couldn't be on the road at the time, we interviewed and we saw, you know, we did a casting call for, you know, interviewed hundreds upon hundreds of people who sent in video clips and then met with them and so forth, and really broke it down into these three stories of, you know, a young,

a young black kid going to university with his mom going from the north to the south. A couple, Tino Intanage, who, he came to America from Cuba at the age of two. She's a black woman. Their youngest child has gone, has left the house. They've sold everything, and they live in a sprinter van chasing the sun. and then a 70, almost 70-year-old woman who was kind of trekking back to mend her relationship with her 92-year-old father

who she hasn't really seen in 50 years. So bringing those stories to me together along with Kerouac story was a way of both paying homage to Kerouac which I think is important. And I think there was something you said, you mentioned it earlier about, you know, being a white guy telling this story.

I think it's really, we've gotten into such a place of silos where it's kind of like, oh, you're the white guy, you can't tell that story. Or I'm the black guy, I can only tell this story. You're the woman, or you know, or you're named Pierre. And so we'll assume that there's French in there somewhere, so you should only tell the French story.

You know, or the Belgian story. Yeah, that gay story I've written, it's going to be in the drawer forever. Bring it out. Let's uncover it. But that's the stuff that I think in reality. reality, when we can get out of that, the more we can tell, I look back, and I think, you know, Tino, who's in the film, who's from Cuba, is, when we premiered the film at Tribeca, he came up to me and he said, I left you, I gave you such good material. I gave you such much material, and so much of it is left on the cutting room floor. We've all had that conversation. And I'm sitting there looking at her, and I'm like, Tino, I made you look like a good guy.

Like, you know, he's like, I gave you so much. But there is, but I wanted diverse opinions. And Tino is a rabid Trump supporter. Yes. He's, you know, his point of view, he's obviously been done military service. His point of view completely is different than, you know, Amir's point of view, going to school, or Amir and his mom, you know, leaving the, the south side of Philadelphia going to Atlanta. So to me, it's about, I wanted a film that showed. a lot of different opinions that showed what Kerouac was trying to do and respected him, but it doesn't take away anything.

It shouldn't take away, you know, for a mere to stand tall as a young black kid in this film going to school in the South doesn't mean that Kerouac has to be shorter. No. Yeah, because I went there thinking, please don't tear Karouac apart. I know you have to, it's 2025, you have to start by saying he's a misogynist and he did some racial tourism and all that sort of stuff.

And you have to take, I mean, you let him off with a lot of stuff. He was, you know, he helped someone who just murdered someone to hide the evidence. I mean, that's a whole other story. That's its own film. You know, one of his closest friends, Alan Ginsberg, said he regularly phoned me when he was drunk and it was just anti-Semitism for the whole thing. He was a difficult guy, but he was also a sweet Catholic poet. who lived with his mom,

who lived with his mom for his whole life. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say a word or two on that relationship. A little bit messed up, maybe. He lived with his mom for his whole life, and they were both alcoholics. And so... They were enabling each other, but they were enabling each other, but they were also kind of, like,

they were enabling each other, but they were also kind of like, you know, a bickering... You know, I think they were both drinking to deal with the other one. Co-dependent. And there was a codependent relationship. Well, look, speaking as an alcoholic myself, alcohol can be very bonding. I'm going to see my mother tomorrow

are we having drinks on the flight Sorry, I'm hugging all the questions to Ebes What about you? Did you guys know about Carrowack before? Well, I knew about the Truman... I'd watched George Truman Capote and I knew a bit about Carrowack but if I'm really honest, Frank,

everything you've said is true in that I had sort of filed some away in that slight J.D. Salinger Oh, it's a young man's right of passage. I'm not sure there's anything here. for me as a menopausal woman. Can I say, I did it. Do you get it?

No, there's nothing for you in that. I don't even call it a novel. For me, it's a prose poem. I think it's a, it's there's so much beauty. I do a poetry podcast, and when I did the beats, I included an extract from that because the writing is so beautiful

and so sensitive and so religious. about America, but about people, generally. I'm trying to sell it here. I'd like to know how you got through the women stuff, if you read it, because it is, I think it just feels like he's so horny, he can't stand back from these. I think as long as... Youth.

Yeah, exactly. I think it's always that thing, though, look, there's problems in Neff Scott Fitzgerald's writing or Shakespeare's writing, but I think where I struggle is when there's not a sense of the women having any humanity and I don't know whether you would say

that was true of Kerouac But one of the stars of the movie for me was Joyce Johnson who went out with him and she's a fascinating interest and a great writer and that's why you're I loved your documentary

because it kind of brought other elements to me and I loved, I've heard you talk about it and it really did make me you know that idea of the road having all these possibilities I did feel that watching those people but you say

Don't you always say, put your phone down? Put your phone down and look out of the window. Yeah. Or get in the car. No, there's something... I will say on the misogyny front and on the racial tourism. On both fronts.

Look, it's 2025, almost 2026. How lucky are we that we can sit together? First of all, how lucky are we that we can all sit together in this booth together right now? Now, we're not in America, but we can all sit together in this booth right now. In America, that was really... Now, you know, in this country, that's been, you know, probably longer going than in America

because I look at my mother who lived through integration of schools. That was like a very, that was something that was very cognizant and very much a part of her experience. But, you know, we grow. The world changes. We grow and we evolve. And it's okay to look back at things and acknowledge things that weren't right. It's okay to say it's really not. not cool that women didn't have agency over their bodies or that women could not get in a car and drive and go wherever they wanted to without their husband or their brother or their father or their son's permission.

It's okay to look at these things over time and say, gosh, isn't it great we don't live there in that world anymore? But if we don't look at them and if we don't talk about them, we're bound to the next generations to repeat them. So pretending they don't exist is kind of... Yeah, but also I think Carrowack, unlike so many other people in 1947 when he was on the road, he had the seeds of this where we are now in that he could love people for who they were. He's travelling with hobos and he said, oh, and this guy and he stole this money, he took my shirt and all that. But, you know, he's a pretty good guy.

He's a pretty good guy. He's very lacking in judgment, which is still a rare quality nowadays. He's open. And his soul was open. And it was also, the other thing I'd say is for so many of those, you know, for all of the, for all the people who have flaws with the book on some of these same things, the reality is he was writing about people at a time when a lot of the people who were reading his book weren't going to pick up a book and read a book about a Latin woman, weren't going to pick up a book written by a black man and read it. And so he was also, to your point, taking his humanity and his appreciation of everybody and putting it into this book and having a whole, he was a bridge to a whole different group of people. I was going to ask if you see it as an inflection point in that, where desegregation is happening in the 50s

and people are starting to protest or even riot. And he's getting that message through to the white American youth and the intelligentsia in a way that any other kind of form wouldn't really have hit them as hard. 100%. I mean, I don't think, look, that generation, they are the first counterculture movement. They really are, and I don't think, if I'm correct, the term doesn't really get written until 1960. But they are the definition of counterculture.

They are the ones that are talking to youth. They are saying, get ready. It's just, and without them, you don't have the seeds of the swinging 60s, and you don't have the free love 70s. One of the newsreader clips about Kerouac and the, the, the, beat generation that was used as a part of a montage in the documentary had a outsiders and proud of it and proud of it exactly outside and proud of it who didn't who wouldn't want to wear a grey flannel suit yeah but carrowack hated

being this symbol of rebellion he hated being adored by the swinging 60s when it began i think i hate to say it and it hurts me to i think he would have probably voted for trump in in 1947. He always had, you know, he was a jock on one level. He was a football player. Do you think you would have got on with him? Good question. I'd have been frightened.

There's a bit where he goes to the opera and I think I would have got on with him and then they go into the dressing rooms and steal their towels of the opera singers. And while they're doing it, they're showering and using all this lovely cologne. What are the guys...

One of the guys says, yeah, this is so good. great, isn't it? We can be clean. These people have given everything and entertain us and now we're stealing their products. That's right. Frighton thing is interesting because I feel exactly the same way about Truman Capote, who I sort of idolize,

that I would have paid good money to spend an evening with him. But I would be very frightened of him because of his withering put downs and the cruelty, if I'm honest, that he was capable of. There's such a direct line between Kerouac and then Hunter S. Thompson and not just the long-range driving, but also the drug use and the counterculture aspect and stuff.

Why do you think we don't have an equivalent figure now, or do we? Someone who is a frightening... Did England? Did the UK ever have an equivalent figure? Of who, Jack Kerouac? I mean... I don't think... Maybe we don't have enough road.

There's not enough road. We don't have roads, Eves. We don't have roads. There's plenty of road. It's too easy to catch up to people here. You know, where I live is a 20-0-0-year. Well, that is the problem. I will give you that.

Also, Ebes, our roads are all called little itty-bitty, tiny lane. It is tiny. We don't have the open road in the same way. Too many turns. Not in the same way, but the concept of getting out of where you are remains. I agree with that. I think when you're at a lot of places, it's, you know, where he was, even for Kerouac, getting out of that, of Lowell, Massachusetts, and getting into New York City,

and then getting out of New York City and getting, you know, I think you got plenty of people who are saying I'm going to get out of one place and get to Manchester. Or I'm going to get out of Manchester and go to London. I'm going to get out of London and go to Wales or go, you know, go to Scotland or do something different. I do think there's a universal, there's a universal passion for all of us just in our human nature that says there is, and getting out is hope, right? Yeah, I agree with that. You're not always leaving something bad, but you could be leaving a bad relationship or going towards a new exciting job or going to see your parents or, you know, there is hope in. in the journey.

Yeah. I love that. When we've been touring, stand-up touring, it's as close as a wimp like me is prepared to get to being on the road. It's not very Jack Kerouacys. No, but when we, you know, it's three guys. I don't know. I can see them in the shower.

They're like, we can bathe. We can bathe. So there was three of us. We go into places that people who live in London never go in England and Scotland and Wales. We're just turning up. We like this travelling true, but we're going. to our tour manager with us, who's Pakistanis, that reduces white privilege by 30%.

So proud of you. But it really, you're able to, you do romanticise it. You absolutely do. I love motorway services at 2 a.m. in the morning. I love hotels. I love walking into a town I've never been before and, you know, and meeting people. And I used to have sex with lots of people.

I don't do that anymore. Fine. Eves, I do apologise. No, I'm just, we're just talking about, you know, It's very Kerouacian. Why, how social said it was nicer to them. We talked. We talked.

Well, you were always very straight with them as well, about that he would always make a speech at the beginning. He'd say this is one night and that's it. So then you all know where you do. You'll want more. Like, no, no, no. But the film, that's what I like about the film. At first time I thought I was going to be upset

that it wasn't just Kerouac all the way through. But I like the idea that we've all got a road, and it doesn't have to be. There's a film called Sundown, as I know if you remember, it's an old thing about sheep shearing community. And there's a kid who's with his mom and dad, and he's working on the farm. And down the about 100 yards ago, he's where all the men sleep. And he says, I think I'm going to go and sleep down there

and not sleep in this house anymore. And when he's loading up, Peter Eustonov is one of the, the guys, and he said, well, you're moving here now. He said, yeah, I just moved just down from my mom and dads. And he says, that is the longest journey you will ever take. And that is what the film is saying. We've all got our own road, and not everyone takes it, but it's not always about getting in a car and driving for 800 miles.

What's your road, Ebes? Well, what I'll say, I'll deflect. What I'll say is, love it. Thanks for that warning. What I'll say is, you know, I had the luxury of spending a lot of time before he passed away over years with the director Mike Nichols. Oh, wow. And Mike was a good friend and great mentor. And Mike used to say that he never knew why he directed a movie until years later when he realized that it was about someplace that he was in his life at that point in time.

And so I always remembered that. And I realized now when I directed Capote, when I directed Capote, when I directed Capote, when I directed Capone, potty tapes. I was getting married. I was soon to have a new baby. And I was looking at all the things in essence, as I looked back on it, that Truman couldn't have as a gay man at that

point in time. And I was that was important to me. I'm not fully sure what I'm looking at, what I'll be looking back at on this particular film, but I do know that when I started this, my younger son who at the time was 20, I suppose, when I was starting working on this, you know, was doing all

of these things, you know, was kind of trying to go on the road and was, it was, you know, living this youthful existence that was so profound and I was so excited for him in that, that I think it pushed me more and more down remembering, remembering this and wanting him to have these caroacian moments and experiences so my road is somewhere towards hopefully more films and you know people coming people people people going to amazon prime and and apple and watching this one yeah we should establish that yes someone who listens to this will say i want to listen to caroac's road the beat of a nation i want to watch that movie what when and how from october 13th and we'll be streaming and you again uh apple amazon prime go there it'll be there click on it please yeah

give it a fiver give it a give it a fiver yeah push the algorithm yeah yeah i recommend it and it's an art house movie i guess you could say but if you're watching it at home you can still talk and get on your phone just like in a popular cinema just like in a popular cinema oh god's say look what i would say is if you're talking getting on your phone make sure you're calling a friend like it was during uh covid and you're saying let's watch together you click to that's a nice idea thank ebes it's been great having you on thank you for having me

we uh we all love the movie and um i'd love to know what the next one mean i'm thinking billy holiday to me it's screaming billy holiday i've got janice vibes i could be wrong this'll give this you know you have to ask me back if you ever do franco horror please invite me to the premiere done okay we're out of it Ebesburn, no, thank you so much.

The film again is called Kerouac's Road, The Beat of a Nation. You can watch it on a digital service thing near you. They're all near you unless you don't have a home. Prime. You've made it all weird. Oh, sorry. Sorry.

Endings are so difficult. Do you find that? I dream of Dean Moriarty. I'm going to leave it like that. Oh, perfect. It's Frank of the Radio. Frank of the Radio. It's the Frankskinner podcast, don't you know?

Thanks for listening to the podcast. Make sure to like and follow so you never miss an episode. And if you want to get in touch, you can email the podcast via Frank Off the Radio at Avalonuk.com.