The Frank Skinner Show - Frank Skinner's Poetry Podcast: Greta Stoddart

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

The poet, Greta Stoddart, instructs Frank on the deeper meanings of three tulips in a milk bottle. The poems referenced are ‘Fool’ and ‘Three Tulips in a Milk Bottle’. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and then later on under his continuing posthumous method. And Greta Stardardardt worked as an actor and And then one day, so she tells the story, she's in Belfast, I believe. She was out walking and she started to compose a poem in her head. And by the time she got back to the dressing room, it was kind of done. And that was the big change for her. This is how she puts it. She said, performing that night, I felt at one remove as if the heart had been, taken out of the stage and placed on a page.

So she became a poet. She'd been an actor and in that special experience of composing this poem in her head, she became a poet. I believe, though, that the Jacques Lacock, you can tell I enjoy saying it, was Jacques Lecoq method, which informed her acting also informs her poetry. I don't want to give you too much theory before I read you some poetry,

but just very quickly, as she says that acting and writing are simply, this is a quote, simply different kinds of performance. Either way, you're both being and not being yourself, which I think is very interesting. I'll tell you what, I'm going to jump into the poem,

the first poem and then I will come back to the Lecoq method I think it's important okay here's the first two stanzas of a poem called Fool which is

what I would call the title track of the collection Fool which as I say is from 2020 look at your desk can't you see it's had enough of your elbows your head your heart break it up and feed the fire for the fool is nothing now one thing i love about greta stardart is she is for me the queen of the line break we've talked before on these podcasts about how line breaks

are not always the ends of sentences. And so the end of the line gives you one chunk of meaning and then you continue to the end of the sentence where there might be another chunk or at least a variation on that little chunk of meaning you got at the end of that line. It sounds more complicated than it is. She's so good at that.

One thing about Greta Stardardardt, and I want to call a Gretta. Okay, I've never met her. One thing about Greta is that she is a bit inventive with punctuation. So sometimes she uses it, sometimes she doesn't. And when she doesn't, I think she's encouraging you to find alternatives. Puntuation kind of finishes a sentence. It defines a sentence.

It says there's a pause here, and this is a little separate chunk of meaning, etc. Greta doesn't want that. She wants you to think, oh, yeah, that's a chunk of meaning. Oh, it goes on to the next line and it's a new chunk of meaning. Oh, and now come to think of it, maybe it started on that line. And that was a whole long chunk of meaning. That's how it works. So, here we go.

Look at your desk. Can't you see it's had enough? So that is the end of a line. So this desk sounds exhausted. But it's continuing. Can't you see it's had enough of your elbows, your hair? your heart. It sounds, doesn't it, like this person,

and in a poem you're imagining, it might be a poet at a desk. This person is trying a bit too hard. Look at your desk. Can't you see it's had enough? You've worn out your work desk. Can't you see it's had enough continuing of your elbows, your head, your heart?

So this is what you've pommeled this work desk with your elbows, your physical leaning on it, thinking, pondering, frustrated that you can't come up with the next idea, the next line. And also the whole idea of elbow grease. So the desk has had enough of your elbows, your head, maybe being banged or rested upon it, but also lots of thinking. You've done so much thinking, thinking, thinking at this desk.

Your elbows, your head, your heart, your emotion, the whole inner self you've poured into the work you've done at this desk as nearly destroyed the poor piece of furniture. And there's a suggestion already, I think, that effort is not always helpful, that you can be restrained by trying, by a sort of desperate grasping, trying too hard.

Let's go onto that next stanza. The next answer is just two lines. It continues from the previous lines. I'll give you the first stanza again first quickly. Look at your desk. Can't you see it's had enough of your elbows, your head, your heart. Break it up and feed the fire.

For the fool is nothing. You can probably guess that that is going to continue, but the fool is nothing is important. I think anyone who knows anything at all about Shakespeare's King Lear will see that line, for the fool is nothing. Fool as a capital F, as does the character Fool, a fool in King Lear, sort of the king's jester, the guy who says all the scary stuff. One of, I think, the king's nasty daughters, King Lear's nasty daughters, describes the fool,

this clown that accompanies the king all the time as, you're all licensed fool. So in other words, a person who can say what they like, say the most outrageous, major things, but because they've dressed it up in comedy and dressed it up in rhyme sometimes and in songs, then he gets away with it, or he does for most of the play this fall. So we've gone in deep now, haven't we? She's made us think of King Leia because the word nothing, remember the line is for the fool is nothing. The word nothing in King Lear is incredibly significant. Just to, by the way, I don't think this is all about King Lear just that. I'm just going to be quick on this. This is not a Shakespeare

podcast, but very, very briefly, in case you know, the story, King Lea thinks, I know what I'll do is, you know, I'd like an easier life. I've been a king a long time. I've got three daughters. I'll split the kingdom three ways, give it to them. They can rule it. And I'll just, you know, live at their houses and have a great time. So he does it and two of the daughters tell him how marvellous and fantastic he is. So he says, well, you get your third and you get your third. And then he turns to his lovely favourite daughter, Cordelia. And instead of opting for flattery, she opts for truth. Always a mistake in financial matters. So he says to her, and what can you say to draw a third more opulent than your sister? So there's still a chance. I might give you a

bit more if you really, really praise me and say how brilliant I am. So what can you say? And Cordelia, the lovely daughter, says, nothing. And he says, nothing. She says, yeah, nothing. And then this famous quote, King Leah says to her, nothing will come of nothing. And in fact, that nothing that nothing that she says makes him disinherit her and the entire play sort of collapses, his world collapses all from this act. So it is completely untrue that nothing comes from nothing because she says nothing and in fact changes the world with her truth and her honesty. So how does that fit into this? Look at your desk, can't you say it's had enough of your your head, your heart. Break it up and feed the fire. So there's a suggestion of physically

breaking up the desk and setting fire to it. Move away from the idea of work and effort and this place where you sweat and bang your head and lean your elbows and give your heart. Break it up and feed the fire. But I think it also means liberate your thoughts. a bit lose the work desk really and metaphorically just be a bit and see what comes out for the fool is nothing okay so it seems to suggest that the fool this as i said in king lear this creative figure in that he says very profound and interesting things in very different very unused sometimes convoluted, complicated, and for obvious reasons, not totally blatant ways. Maybe the poet does that as well.

Maybe the poet is a kind of fool. Now, I'm just going to stop there because I want to go back to Jacques Lecoq and his method. I know someone who teaches the Lecoq. method of clowning and people go to him often stand-up comedians my I am in case you don't know a stand-up comedian myself and I know several stand-up comedians who've had these lessons to try and loosen up a bit to try and find something new to try and find the clown in themselves and I saw this guy and I said how's it going and he said well we're getting a lot of stand-up comedians coming.

I said, well, that's good, because they've got a head start, you know, on the comedy front. They're halfway to clowning. They're in the clowning business. And he said, oh, but they come, they turn up with their ideas and their funny thoughts. And I thought, okay. And I think he was echoing this Lecoq feeling that don't try too much. much. Don't think of it as something that you have to generate your art, your creativity. Think of it's something that's in there and if you just clear everything out, it will emerge and there'll be a

whole aspect of your genius that you never found before. I'll go back to Greta again. She talks about this thing which is, I think, is very interesting, which is an actual mask that Lecoq gets students to wear, both, you know, when he was alive and after, as I say, in his tradition. And there is a mask called the neutral mask. And it completely, of course, when you put it on, completely removes any facial expression. And the idea is the student comes on and just stands there in this mass so they've got nothing to work with and lecoq felt that this sort of neutral face let his students be open and sort of non-subjective lose themselves and then they let the world affect their bodies and thus their performance so they become a

blank page and something we don't know quite what sort of writes them. I'll tell you what Greta says. She said, on wearing the mask, it felt like you'd somehow regained the presence, even the grace you'd lost many years ago when you became a self-conscious being. So stop trying, stop searching,

stop working, just be, and you'll find there's a whole creative artist in you that you've never even touched upon and if you apply this to poetry it's sort of saying i suppose it's saying don't force a poem give it the space to write you if you like don't go to the poem let it come to you don't work work at your desk break up your desk feed the fire for the Full is nothing. Blank page. Clear. I'm going to carry on. I hope you're sticking with me. Believe me, it's fascinating. And the great thing about Greta Stoddart, she is one of those poets who is not afraid to set fire to our brains. She has a very stark, even seeing it on the page, lots of white, but it's heavy, heavy with intense. Okay. Break it up and feed the fire for the fool is nothing. I'm carrying on. Break it up and feed the fire for the fool is nothing if not drawn to the bright spark in all dying things.

Then let the fool in foolish dress make awkward gestures of tenderness. Let us in this way be entertained in all manner of small mercy. right so the fool is nothing we've already got that but that's another example of a fabulous gretta line break for the fool is nothing if not drawn to the bright spark in all dying things so what does that mean i think that the fool the artist the clown the poet they see things that others don't see they see light in the dark, they see insight in ignorance, they see something in nothing. So the fool is nothing if not drawn to the bright spark in all dying things. So one thing you can guarantee about

the fool, and I'm thinking this means poet as well, they are drawn to the bright spark in all dying things. So dying is a massive, profound, dark, ultimate experience. But of course, the bright spark sounds like something dying that has that tiny little bit of glowing ember left, but also the phrase bright spark means a clever or witty person. So it's as if in the gloom, in the pain, in the anguish, the fool will find comedy and entertainment. And then we'll deliver it. So as it says, then let the fool in foolish dress make awkward gestures of tenderness. This also sounds quite learish, actually, because King Leia is dying.

He is a dying thing that has been mighty and has now fallen. and the fool in Lear is definitely drawn to the bright spark in all dying things. He thinks there's still something important and exciting in the king, but also he is a bright spark. He explains this compassion, this empathy in a comic, in a very language-based, clever, musical way, the way that a poet does. Then let the fool in foolish dress make awkwardness. gestures of tenderness.

Awkward. I think awkwardness is a big part of the flawed humanity of the fool. And she says about when the students put on that neutral mask,

that they stand there and they don't know what to do next. They are lost. But after they go into it, after they start to try, then it says without even realizing it, your body would express itself in all sorts of ways, a quizzical tilt of the head, downcast shoulders, bunched fists.

So your body starts to operate itself without this very careful control of your creative urges. And that is what happens with the full, I think the poet, as far as the poem is concerned, but also the fool in lea then let the fool in foolish dress make awkward gestures of tenderness so it's not the compassion and the love or whatever it is that draws the uh the clown the fool the poet to the bright spark in all dying things it's not expressed like some sort of counsellor like some sort of that's with an ass uh like some sort of social worker it's made to entertain as well as to explain something painful and difficult let us in this way be entertained in all manner of small mercies and small mercies i think that could be poems couldn't it

because small mercies are small things that light and a dark situation maybe that defines poetry Not that all poetry is happy, but all poetry is celebratory, certainly all good poetry, because it celebrates humanity, it celebrates the inventiveness and the cleverness of human beings, the fact that they have written a poem, even if their world is on fire. And the fool in Leah certainly is very clever, is an artist, he's very fun, funny. As I said, he writes songs and poems and all that. He's expressing these big things, but he's expressing them in an entertaining way. They are small mercies to King Lee, or maybe poems are small mercies to us. Light in the darkness. Last bit. Let us be grateful for them. That is the small

mercies of which we just spoke. Let us be grateful for them and for the fool who is nothing. Now if you remember way back in the second stanza, breaking up and feed the fire for the fool is nothing. So we're thinking, well, is the full really nothing now? And also we're starting to think that nothing is quite important because nothing is what's left. When you burn your work desk, when you stop trying too hard, when you stop trying to force your creativity, when you let it flow, when you tune into something inside you that often you don't touch because it's been hidden, it's been tucked away, it's been shoved in a back room by all your effort and trying and all your subjectivity. Okay, let us be grateful for them. And for

the fool there is nothing, end of line, but continuing, if not, good. Oh, so let us be grateful for them. That's the small mercies. And for the fool who is nothing if not good. So he's not nothing, he's nothing if not good. So that's high praise morally for the fool. But then it goes on. I'm going to read the last two stanzas. Stick with it. Because the punctuation deserts us for these last two stanzas, because we are taunted by line breaks, I think there's half a dozen different ways of reading these last two stanzas. I'll just read them straight through and I'll let you feel the line breaks. Let us be grateful for them.

So that's the small mercies, I think, poems. Let us be grateful for them and for the fool who is nothing, if not good, for nothing is what we're good for. nothing might be what he's called for so on one level let us be grateful for them so let's just be glad that the fool's creativity this non-trying non-formalized someone who's unbottoned their tunic and let themselves be You know that Maria Callas, quote, the famous opera singer who said every performance should be like a rehearsal. I think there's something in this is don't try too hard. Don't let your work, don't let your art be your sergeant major.

Let it be you. So let us be grateful for them and for the fool who is nothing, if not good for nothing, is what we're good for. Nothing might be what is called for. this is I think the most straightforward reading of it let us be grateful for them and for the fool who is nothing if not good for nothing is what we are good for nothing might be what is called for so if you read it like that we should be grateful for these people for these works of art that come from nothing that they exist some sort of secret mystical form inside artistic people and the fact that they're released we should be grateful for them as gifts so let us be grateful for them and for the fool who is

nothing if not good so as i said there is something celebratory about any kind of art even if it's desperately bleak because it celebrates human ingenuity, inventiveness, etc. For the fool is nothing if not good. And then this last, I'm going to call it a couplet, for nothing is what we are good for. Now good for nothing is obviously an old insult. Oh, he's a right, good for nothing, he's good for nothing, she's good for nothing. suggestion here for nothing is what we are good for nothing get rid of your ego that's telling you

to be this and to try that and to push that and to tighten this and just let it be nothing that's where the good stuff comes from it comes from nothing it comes from that blank page that you allow yourself to be let us be grateful for them and for the fool of is nothing if not good for nothing is what we are good for nothing might be what is called for so maybe that's the secret nothing nothing to be nothing to not try to not consciously work at whatever it is you want to create to place on this neutral mask to just be and see what happens see what you tune into. I believe one of the sort of

mottoes of the Lockhock School was to study and I'm going to quote the silence out of which comes words. So I think for the poet to go into a place where your art

will happen rather than go in there with a toolbag and try to manually build it yourself. Those last couple of stanzas. I just want to chuck a few ways. I think you could read some of this. For the fool who is nothing. So that's one, as I said. For the fool who is nothing if not good. For the fool who is nothing, if not good for nothing, for nothing is what we are good for. Good for nothing is what we are good for. Nothing might be what is called for. So all those are options here because the punctuation has been taken away and left us free form, left us in a

neutral mask, left us standing in the middle of the stage without punctuation to help us and give us guidance. Right-oh, I'm going to give you one more, Greta Stoddart. I don't want to go too far over time, so I might be a bit brisker with this one. I think she says of writing a poetic collection. I don't have ideas or themes for a book when I start out, but there comes a point you get a sense of what the poems might be saying alone and to each other.

So you start to feel a theme in the book and you feel the poems responding to each other and that fits in, I think, with that Lecoq idea. Don't say, I'm going to write 25 poems about horse wear. Tack. Is that tack? Yeah. You don't do that. You just let it go. Let it be. Right. This poem, and I'm going to be brisk, but I do love it and I want to share it, is called three tulips in a milk bottle. Now, anyone who's read much poetry, when they read three tulips in a milk bottle, will think of T.S. Eliot's Ash Wednesday poem, which has a line in it, lay. three white leopards sat under a juniper tree. So not three tulips in a milk bottle,

but three white leopards sat under a juniper tree. And the reason that line has become immortalised is that famously T.S. Eliot was giving a talk or something of that nature and asked for questions. And someone said, what did you mean by three white leopards sat under a juniper tree? And he said, I meant three white leopards sat under a juniper tree and he was making a point there

I think about meaning about don't paraphrase everything sometimes it's just it and just feel it the way it is you don't always get what's in the poem there's a poem I really like by Andrew motion about the American poet John Ashbury which begins recomposing myself after a difficult encounter with another page by John Ashbury that proves beyond all doubt how admiration might well not include understanding. And this poem is about meaning and so I don't think it's an accident that the title triggers thoughts of that quite sort of arcy remark by T.S. Eliot, some might think, but I think actually potentially profound. What did you mean by, I'm going to give you the full thing, what did you mean by Lady Three White Leopards

Under a Juniper Tree? I meant Lady Three White Leopards Under a Juniper Tree. Next question. Okay, here comes the first two stanzas. No, I'll go three for speed. Okay, here goes. Of course, I'd like there to be meaning. Who wouldn't? Look how I just said that, with barely a pause to imagine a person for whom meaning would. would be a mere side show. But now that I have, I can't help but see her. It's very sort of conversational, isn't it? As if we've joined the conversation midway,

as if we've just sat next to two people in a pub and one of them is saying, of course I'd like there to be meaning, who wouldn't? Look how I just said that. So she suddenly stopped the chat and started a sort of self-commentary. So this is what you get. And there is some punctuation here.

Yeah. Of course, I'd like there to be meaning, dash. Who wouldn't, question mark, dash. Look how I just said that. With barely a pause to imagine a person for whom meaning would be a mere sideshow. So she's saying, the speaker. Of course, I'd like there to be meaning. And when I say the speaker, I know I

always say that, is it the poet? It's rarely the actual poet. It's usually some form of the poet. And as I said earlier, as she said that poetry and acting are simply different kinds of performance. Either way, you're both being and not being yourself. Of course, I'd like it to be meaning, who wouldn't? Look how I just said that. She's heard us. say that. Oh yeah, I'd like to be meaning. Who wouldn't? Look how I just said that. And it's the who wouldn't she's picked up on. Look how I just said that with barely a pause to imagine a person for whom meaning would be a mere sideshow. So when she says, of course, I'd like it to be meaning who wouldn't, well, she's actually stopping like poets do. They can't throw away a line

poets. She's actually taking the who wouldn't and thinking, yeah, who wouldn't? Actually, who wouldn't like it to be meaning? And as she says, look how I just said that. We barely have paused to imagine a person for whom meaning would be a mere side show. So someone who wouldn't want there to be meaning is not bothered. And I like the idea of meaning being a mere side show. it's an argument that runs through poetry all the time about meaning and why can't you know sometimes you just read it and it's beautiful and you have a vague sense something happens inside you but it's not meaning as i say it can't be paraphrased i get quite hungry for meaning i if there's a line that is eluding me i tend to pursue it deep deep into the labyrinth it's all very

present tense, by the way, this poem. It's all in the moment. We've joined her, as I say, of course, I'd like it to be meaning, who wouldn't? Oh, look how I just said that. We barely opposed to a. Imagine a person for whom meaning would be a mere side show. Oh, wow. But now that I have, I can't help but see her. So I've said that. I've threw away the line. I'd like to be meaning who wouldn't. And then I'm going to seek out the person who who maybe, who wouldn't want that. There she is. Fixing three tulips in a milk bottle.

Her eyes shifting this way and that, standing back for a moment before stepping in to make small changes. So, who is this then? It's like a film. She's mentioned the idea of a person, who wouldn't like there to be meaning. But now that I have, I can't help but see her. It's like it's a film and we've caught to this woman.

There she is. Fixing three tulips in a milk bottle. Her eyes shifting this way and that, standing back for a moment before stepping in to make small changes. It sounds now like she's watching a sort of movie of her imagination. She thought about this person, a person who wouldn't like there to be meaning, who thought meaning would be a mere sideshow. And now we're sort of getting the sideshow, aren't we?

There she is fixing three tulips in a milk bottle of eyes, shifting this way and that standing back for a moment before stepping in to make small changes. It's a flower arranger. Why have we gone there for a person who possibly wouldn't like the, to be meaning. I think it's because to arrange flowers is to impose meaning. So it's sort of suggesting that there is no actual meaning to the flowers, but I will give it some.

I will make it. I will make a sideshow of meaning. I don't really care about the truth, possibly. I care about my clever arrangement. of what I see. I will take nature and craft something more interesting, more beautiful. I will improve on nature. There she is fixing three tulips in a milk bottle, her eyes shifting this way and that. So she's lining it up. Does that look good? Does that look good? Standing back for a moment, yeah, not bad. Before stepping in to make small changes, I just turn that flower a little.

or maybe lean that one a little over. Next few stanzas, stick with me because I'm trying to be brisk. No, it's not that I'd like there to be no meaning. It's simply that I don't feel it. Or if I could just stand back for a moment, remember the woman putting the three tulips in a milk bottle, fixing the three tulips in a milk bottle, stood back to sort of size it up.

No, it's not that I'd like there to be no meaning. It's simply that I don't feel it. Or if I could just stand back for a moment. So it's like she's going to do that now. This poem has become the three tulips in a milk bottle. She's arranging it. She's standing back for a moment. She's brought up the idea of meaning.

And now she's going to slightly rearrange it a little to make it a bit neater and a bit clearer. just like the woman moving, the tulips around in the milk bottle. I'm going to give you that bit again. No, it's not that I'd like there to be no meaning. It's simply that I don't feel it. Or if I could just stand back for a moment. So I'm going to give you a bit clearer now. I'm going to rearrange my thoughts and you'll love this.

I'm going to take an in-breath. Here we go. Next stanza, just two lines. No thing has any inherent meaning. and perhaps we'd do as well to accept that. Now, the fixing of the tulips is not a discovery of meaning, is it? It's an imposing of meaning.

And is she saying that no thing has any inherent meaning and perhaps we do as well to accept that? Is that what poets do? Are poets creating a meaning that isn't truly there? isn't inherent in whatever it is there writing about, our poet's sort of offering up their imposed meaning as truth, or at least a truth, that we can work with that is interesting and entertaining and moving,

but ultimately made rather than discovered. Hmm. No thing has any inherent meaning, perhaps we'd do as well to accept that. Now, this next bit is what would life be like if it was totally meaning free? And it would be like an animal life, I suppose. And this is the longest stanza, and I think it's because she's enjoying it. I'm going to blast it out because it deserves it.

No thing has any inherent meaning, and perhaps we do as well to accept that, or more, actually lie down contentedly in the mod with that. feel how warm and happy is in the ramshackle enclosure under the good grey sun with its big rotten fruit chopped in at irregular intervals so if you think yes there is no inherent meaning perhaps we do as well to accept that then we can just lie back in the mud like a contented pig not needing anything else, not constantly reaching out to discover meaning. If we need meaning, we'll just make it up. There is no inherent meaning. There's nothing deeply true. So we'll have our own truth. Let's hear about that pig again, that pig poet. Or more actually lie down contentedly

in the mud with that feel how warm and happy it is in the ramshackle enclosure. I'm imagining a knocked together pig style under the good grey son good grey sounds a contradictory of a son but grey would be unenlightening which i think she's enjoying the idea of on enlightenment at the moment with its big rotten fruit chock tinity regular intervals it is the life of the pig or if that's unbearable and believe me i do understand she puts in brackets you know i it's like not all of you could handle that. Or if that's unbearable, and believe me, I do understand, then by all means, go and write.

There's my siren. I've been waiting. Now I can complete my work. If that's unbearable, the idea that there's no inherent meaning, and believe me, I do understand, then by all means, go and write. That's a line break, but it continues very patronisingly. A little something. so this almost sounds she could be speaking to herself couldn't she if it's unbearable that idea of no inherent meaning believe me i do understand then by all means go and write a little something

to explain that all meaning is made and is that what poetry is about that the meaning go on screech my darling like the sirens calling me to the rocks um so That wasn't from the poem. That was me talking to the siren. So, yes, so if you can't cope with the truth of the being no inherent meaning at all in the universe, then by all means go and write a little something to explain that all meaning is made. That's what poets do. They make meaning.

They are crafts people. Maybe not if they use the Lecoq method where the meaning just emerges from their inner being. but generally it's a making job you know that the early scottish poets i've got a book a collection of early scottish poets and they're called it's not quite the english word but it's basically makers that's what they're called because they they build that poem there's a another podcast in this series the r s thomas podcast when i read a poem called poetry for sopper and there's an argument between two poets one who is wouldn't know it but sort of of the lecoq school of just let it happen and the other one who thinks you've got to get your elbows on the desk and make a poem

last bit and then i'll release you you might think that what is he talking about listen to this again it'll change your life and you can say what you like here so now this person who's going to write this poem that she's given permission, if you like, then by all means go and write a little something patronisingly to explain that all meaning is made. And then she starts giving some tips of what this poem might be like, this little something. And you can say what you like here, but you might mention the arranging of the tulips. So the image that she herself came up with. She's saying that might be good in this little something in this poet. So it sounds like a note to self, doesn't it? It sounds like she's the one who's going to go away and write a little

something. And she's just going back through her thoughts and thinking what bits would be good to use. This is like the stand-up comedians arriving at the clown class with their ideas. And you can say what you like here, but you might mention the arranging of the tulips. So she's, She's obviously quite pleased with that idea that she had earlier. It's like we're watching the poem being written here. She's letting us see her process. Yeah, I mustn't forget that really good thing I said about the tulips. And another note to self, say how beautiful that person must have found them growing there in the garden.

How she couldn't resist the urge to pick them and bring them in make a thing of them so she's going through it now oh i've got it i've got the thing to say about how all meaning is made the person saw the tulips in the garden say how beautiful that person must have found them so just beautiful no real meaning but just this deep deep response to the beauty of those tulips but that wasn't enough i need to tidy life up a bit here I need the application of meaning, if you like. So life becomes art, life becomes made, meanings imposed. When they were grown in the garden, those tulips, they were beautiful,

but they didn't have any real context. But the flower arranger or the poet is going to do that, is going to sort them out, is going to give them a, a context. Say, oh, beautiful, that person must have found them growing there in the garden. She couldn't resist the urge to pick them and bring them in. And that's life, isn't it? Maybe everything a poet sees is, it's in the world, it's reality, it's truth, but it's a bit hard to see the real fundamental meaning of it. So why don't I write it up? The way that Wordsworth saw the guy who was gathering leeches, that's another podcast.

in this earlier in the history of these poetry podcasts. Wordsworth sees a guy, an old guy, up to his knees in water, gathering leeches, and Wordsworth goes over to talk to him, but we never really hear from the leach gatherer. It's Wordsworth imposing meaning on this guy, saying what he symbolises, saying what he means to Wordsworth, saying what the message is behind him. less interested in the factual truth, less interested in describing, less interested in just

feeling a natural inner love and empathy for this old man trying to make a living like this. But more, oh, what can I do? What can I do with this image? And that seems to be what's happened with these tulips. So when you're going to write about that, say, oh, beautiful, that person must have found them growing there in the garden. Now she couldn't resist the urge to pick them. and bring them in.

Okay, here comes the last stanza. Make a thing of them. But no matter what she did, they wouldn't stand. They simply wouldn't stand for what she had in mind. So she couldn't resist the urge to pick them and bring them in, make a thing of them. Make, it's that word again, make. Don't just let them be. I've got to do something with these tulips to make them.

art. So make a thing of them, but no matter what she did, they wouldn't stand. There's a comma there. If you get a bit of punctuation with Greta, you want to make the most of it. So it sounds like they physically, first thing they physically wouldn't stand. They were so at home and so natural in the soil out there. But now they're in a milk bottle, now they're in this manufactured see-through thing so that we can observe them all the way down. They don't fit properly. They don't seem very comfortable there. They're out of place.

But the next wouldn't stand doesn't get a comma. So that's why we're going to go on to the end of the poem. Make a thing of them. But no matter what she did, they wouldn't stand. They simply wouldn't stand for what she had in mind. so it's annoying isn't it she's got this great idea for a for meaning that she can impose on these tulips and then they're not helping they're not cooperating so it's not to say that they have no meaning but they refuse to accept the meaning that this person wishes to impose on them

You know, I love Greta Stoddardt. She's so interesting. And the poems, like I say, they look so clinical and clean. It's like she's stripped away. It is like the mass, the neutral mass. She's stripped away all the trimmings, and we go in there, and it's cold, but it's fascinating. Do read, if you can, any poems from Full by Greta Stoddart. I hope I've not frightened you away.

So thank you for listening to Frank Skinner's poetry podcast. Don't forget to follow so you never miss an episode. Imagine that. See you next week. Thank you.