The Fumblerooski Podcast - Slow Going Ep 274 The Fumblerooski Podcast

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

Do Caleb Williams’ struggles in OTAs mean anything or is it another media overreaction? Should Justin Jefferson and Ceedee Lamb be paid like quarterbacks? How will paying them affect the Vikings and Cowboys respectively? Adam Wright and CJ Medeiros debate these topics and more!

Caleb Williams struggles in camp and Justin Jefferson and CeeDee Lamb are due for big deals. I'm Adam Wright, you're listening to the Fumble Rooski Podcast. It may not have always showed it in the stat sheet, but you can see him making throws when he needs to make the throws. Back-to-back games where he has three touchdowns. Someone's got to get that six or seven spot. He's an elite wide receiver as a rookie. Truly a lose-lose scenario for both sides welcome to the fumble ruski podcast by power 88 and secret weapon consulting i'm adam right with

cj medeiros and we have a great show in store for you guys tonight so otas are going on around the league. Training camp is going to be starting very soon for these teams going into the 2024 season. And there's been a couple of reports here and there about all these different teams. And a couple of the most notable, pretty notable, which is we'll start with caleb williams struggling in camp um so according to chicago bears beat reporter nick moreno he said that they he struggled and i quote struggled mightily in in their otas completing just three passes on seven for sevens um this is so obviously the kid he's a he is young he's a rookie and if he ends up being a boss that's one thing but i don't think we should overreact to any sort of reports like this coming out of training camp. Yes, some players who were first round picks struggled to throw the ball and went on to be busts. Trey Lance was the most

notable out of that bunch. But you know who also had, there were reports about them struggling to throw the ball earlier in their career? Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson. Both of them had some pretty concerning reports on whether or not they could throw. In the following year, they won league MVP. I'm not saying that's going to happen with Caleb Williams. I'm just saying you can't really take these too seriously. And yes, Caleb Williams might struggle this year. Despite all of the talent around him, it's very hard to be a winning starting quarterback in this league, especially at a high level. So maybe he will struggle early on. It's very rare that rookie quarterbacks have these outstanding years like CJ Stroud did or Dak Prescott or Justin Herbert. However,

if he does struggle, you know who else struggled? Josh Allen his first year. Trevor Lawrence had a pretty bad rookie year. Peyton Manning had a pretty bad rookie year. Joe Burrow was okay, but and you could say that you could blame the rest of the roster. He had one of the worst offensive lines in football, but he wasn't that good his rookie year. He really hit his stride the very next season. So even if he does struggle, I think the jury is still out. You have to give it a few years for these rookie quarterbacks to really develop into what you want them to become. So you just have to be, you have to be kind of, you've got to be patient with them. Look at the Packers, for example, each of their last two franchise quarterbacks, they benched not only

their first season, but also sophomore and their third seasons. So you just have to be patient. Caleb Williams, maybe he's a bust. Maybe he's the guy, but I don't think it's indicative just based off seven on sevens. Sure. Maybe he struggled and maybe he's even going to struggle this season, but I don't think you can look at it and say that this is any, in any sort, in any way, an indication on whether this guy is a bust or not. I think we see time and time again that's not true. Yeah, I don't think you're wrong. I just, look, I understand that the NFL media has to generate some kind of content, especially during like the big dead spot of the league year.

But really, like this is the best we can do. Come on. And look, this is seven on sevens. I don't even think we've seen his stats from any 11 on 11 play yet. We haven't, you know, where it's like actual like padded practice, like 11 on 11 is like a real football simulation simulation game it's not even the preseason he hasn't even taken an actual snap of real NFL football and already you have some people like this one Chicago beat writer it's like oh my god the alarm bells are blaring no no they aren't. Like you said, we heard all about this with Patrick Mahomes.

We heard all about this with Lamar Jackson. We heard about this with Josh Allen. And the only time that I know of, and Adam, if you know of any, please let me know, the only time where this has held any kind of weight was with trey lance where you know where it just seems to be that these people may or may not be just throwing something at the wall hoping it sticks a few years down the line be like see see i i called it i call it i mean that's what they're gonna say and you know these reports they're just gonna like linger around like should caleb williams god forbid miss a pass or something during the regular season they could just point to it all the i can't say that but they're just gonna point to it all like oh my god i was right in a really uh special way well you know what i'll also say this the only

the only reason we can't name so many times is because we they're all forgettable names there's so many first round quarterbacks taken from every draft where they end up there's reports saying that they're struggling to throw the football and they it turns out they can't throw the football for real um so like the for the amount of times that we have pointed out where it's worked out there are countless more where it didn't. But I still don't think – like I think a lot of rookie quarterbacks, they're going to struggle early on. That's just – it's just the nature of the position.

Every now and then you're going to see a Justin Herbert or a C.J. Stroud who light it up early, but it doesn't happen often. So you have to keep that – you have to take that into consideration. And I also think that this is garnering a lot of attention because of the nature of the Bears' situation in the past couple of years. They just moved on from Justin Fields, and we know, you and I know, CJ, just how divided the Bears' fan base is on Caleb Williams and Justin Fields.

I think everyone believes that Justin Fields is a good kid. He has good physical abilities. He has solid talent. The question has never been how he is as a character. I think the issue has been whether or not he can play the position of quarterback well enough to be a franchise quarterback. And our answer is no, but a lot of people think that it was yes. And a lot of people also hated Caleb Williams. I mean, the guy was, you, they have a point there. The guy

has been unlikable during his, during his last year in college, But he does have some undeniable amount of talent, and if he can just mature a little bit, maybe he can become something. So I think there's a lot of attention coming from that, and there's some overreactions coming from it. All of those Justin Fields zealots are all saying, see, see, this is a bust. Caleb Williams, we don't like Caleb Williams.

We wanted Justin Fields. Caleb Williams sucks. He's a bust caleb williams we don't like caleb williams we wanted justin fields caleb williams sucks he's a bust he's too lazy he has a terrible attitude he's not a good leader you're gonna hear a lot of that especially if he struggles this year which i wouldn't rule out because he's a rookie but i think that's a part of the reason why we see all of this media attention right because the bears just had the, got the number one overall pick for the second year in a row. They didn't trade it this year. They moved on from their previous first round quarterback who turned out to

according to them, not be the guy. So if this guy struggles and sucks, then the bears do have egg on their face, regardless of what Justin Fields does over in Pittsburgh. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. It's just, once again, there's one of those scenarios where a lot of people thought Fields was going to be good. A lot of people thought Trubisky was going to be good, where it's just, I don't know, maybe it's just that whole thing i mean you've mentioned it before to kind of compare here it's kind of like how when people say oh the cowboys aren't gonna do

anything in the playoffs because they're the cowboys kind of a similar scenario well the caleb williams gonna be a bus because the bears only draft bus that's really not i mean it's kind of like the same mindset of like this is just how it it's always been. No data to back it up. It's just, this is how it is. And I feel like there's any quarterback that can break it. It's Caleb Williams, but are we really going to try this early in his career before 11 on 11s, even before the preseason to just cram this narrative down the knowledge

hole of every NFL fan? I just, I, once again, I just feel like we got to pump the brakes on this. That's just my two cents. Yeah. And looking at, it's like, I get, if he ends up being a bus, I'm not saying that I, that I'm ruling that out. I'm not saying that the kid can play. I'm just saying that he hasn't, like you said, we haven't even gotten to preseason yet. We're not even in training camp. This is OTAs. Can you give the kid a chance? Right? And here's another thing. Even if he does pan out to any sort of extent his rookie year, do you not think that there's going to be a built-in excuse with the amount of talent that this Bears team has?

They added Keenan Allen and Roman Dunzay in one offseason. I just feel like that there's automatically going to be, well, if Justin Fields had this, dude, the kid just couldn't play. Even if you have weapons, I really like Justin Fields. I do. I hope he does well over in Pittsburgh. But the idea that these weapons would have, maybe the Bears would have been a bunch better. Maybe they would have been nine and eight, 10 and seven. But is that what we're looking for in Justin Fields in his

third year of playing football? It's not. We're looking for, if he's in his third year and you're giving him Keenan Allen, DJ Moore, and Roma Dunzey in an offensive line that is young and improving and a defense that's getting better, by the way, are we looking for 10 and seven in his third year? No. You're hoping that Justin Fields is an MVP candidate and he's leading this team to a Super Bowl in his third year. If he's a rookie and he struggles, okay, fine. But Justin Fields is going into his fourth year playing football and we still don't know what he is. If you don't know this late in a quarterback's career, chances are they are not the guy. I he's a good kid he was very likable over there and he had some good physical abilities he he did some good things over there that doesn't mean he's

the guy so i think people are kind of just looking for something to vent on and the low-hanging fruit is that the rookie quarterback is struggling in his first few trainings with a professional football team, which sucks because, I mean, the kid, he's just starting out his career, man. Let's just give him a chance. Fields is going into his fourth, and you're giving him all these chances. chances but god forbid caleb williams early on in otas not not pre-season not training camp not his rookie season otas is struggling why are you willing to jump the ship on caleb williams so early but you gave you're giving justin fields four years make that make sense please oh i i think i can explain it but it's a stupid reason because you have these Justin Fields believers that will, you know, swear up and down that he could have been the GOAT had they

just, you know, tried. Well, I think what you said is correct. If you don't know by like the third year whether or not he has the potential to be the guy, then I got news for you. Some of these probably not the guy. It's that he is not the guy. And no matter what happens, you're going to have this delusional sect of Justin Fields supporters that will just never like, they'll never give Caleb his flowers. They're never going to say, oh, he did good. Like, no, no. Why is he only going to be like, he said like 10 and seven. I'd say, well, God forbid he was a rookie. And let's face it, Caleb Williams right now, you,

there is an argument to be made is better than Justin Fields right now, because I'm sorry, Fields can't throw the ball. He has no pocket awareness and he holds onto the ball for an ungodly amount of time. And you have these, you know, they just willfully put

their fingers in their ears and go no no not listening well you mentioned that yeah he holds onto the ball for the longest amount of time the nfl they're like oh uh let's blame the o-line where it's like here's the thing you could have given fields of dunes a i mean heck they were drafting one he could have given him haverson could have given him Allen. You could have given him anyone. And he still would not have been good. Honestly, 10-7 would probably have been their absolute ceiling with Fields. Yeah. Yep. I think you hit the nail right on the head there.

Yeah. And, again, I wish Justin Fields nothing but the best. Hopefully he does – what if he does learn how to play football? That'd be nice. Oh, yeah, and speaking of which – That doesn't mean Caleb Williams can't. Yeah, exactly. And speaking of which, for one last thing for the Fields fans,

if Justin Fields is really that good, wouldn't he be the week one starter in Pittsburgh? If he was really that good, wouldn't it be like, oh, he pittsburgh if he was really that good wouldn't it be like oh he's gonna blow wilson out of the water wilson who has visibly regressed because he's not gonna be the week one starter and they're saying it's an open competition so what's the excuse all right so if if russell wilson wins the job then i think we have our our answer there especially in year four at this point. I mean, come on. I get he was a likable guy.

And again, I wish him nothing but the best, but we're looking at football results, not who's the best player, not who's the most likable, not who's the most fun to watch. Who is the better football player at the quarterback position? Right now, Caleb Williams has better arm talent than Justin Fields. So yeah. Speaking of talent, Justin Jefferson and CeeDee Lamb are the guys at the wide receiver position for their respected teams, and they've been holding out of OTAs and are due for big contracts coming soon. We'll get into the ins and outs of that next.

This is the Fumble Rooski podcast. It may not have always showed it in the staff sheet, but you can see him making throws when he needs to make the throws. Back-to-back games where he has three touchdowns. Someone's got to get that six or seven spot. He's an elite wide receiver as a rookie. Truly a lose-lose scenario for both sides welcome back to the fumble ruski podcast by power 88 and secret weapon consulting i'm adam wright with cj medeiros so justin jefferson and cd lamb these two were over the past couple of

years have been some of the best in the game. They were drafted in 2020 in the first round and they're due for some massive contracts, both of them. In fact, in a recent report by Adam Schefter, Justin Jefferson is due for a contract very soon. Things are starting to get to a head and he is expected to reach, um, a count that would be the highest non quarterback paid in NFL history. So this guy is due for possibly quarterback money. And if CD lamb gets paid, expect, especially since they're from the same draft class they're they're their free agency period is around their free agency classes around the same time expect the around the same for cd lamb which is all fine and good these guys are among the greatest of this generation when it comes to wide receivers i don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that Justin Jefferson is, um, Justin Jefferson is a generational talent and CD lamb has gotten better

and better each and every year. And this year he was sneakily one of the best in the game. I think it was, um, behind whoever I'm forgetting who was their lead yeah it was tyree kill jesus um behind he was right behind tyree kill for yardage so this kid has been insane as well my issue is here's we we may have a similar situation to what we had with the running back position um a couple of years ago coming up i think we're going to reach a bit of a stalemate because yes, these wide receivers are elite generational talents. And I think there's no doubt that you do need a number one target to win a Superbowl, but there's two factors that are in the way. Number one, let me ask you this. When was the last time you can name an elite wide receiver winning a Super Bowl

without having an elite quarterback throwing to him? Where you didn't have a future Hall of Fame quarterback throwing to him? That's a good question because you go back and you look at some of the super bowls uh i mean when i think of quarterback like not elite quarterbacks winning the super bowl i mean obviously nick foals you know gets like the luckiest few calls going his way of his life but at the end of the day is alshon jeff really ill-ly? Is he that top tier? I'd argue no. He wasn't anymore if he was. Yeah.

And then there's 2015, the Broncos, Demarius Thomas. But even though Peyton Manning was a shell of himself and was reduced to a game manager, you've got to remember, Manning's also a future Hall of Famer. Right. So technically, he hasn't. Honestly, not that I can think of. Yeah.

So, I mean, the answer is no. It's never happened before. Yeah, Peyton Manning was a shell of himself, but he was a lot more than just a strong arm. He was a very smart guy. He knew how to take care of the football, and he let his defense do most of the work. And that's why they had to bench Brock Osweiler halfway through that year to bring back Peyton Manning,

because Brock Osweiler had better physical abilities, but he did not have the brain that Peyton Manning does to take care of the football. He doesn't. So Manning is a big part of them winning that Super Bowl. But if you look at Justin Jefferson, Jefferson, he has Kirk Cousins, who's a B-level quarterback. Dak Prescott is a B-level quarterback for CeeDee Lamb. So they're competitive most of the time, but they're not winning a Super Bowl with those quarterbacks. I don't, I guess you could raise half a question about coaching at, in Dallas for Dak, but it's a very small question. I don't think that's going to do anything. Here's my next,

here's my next one. Here's my next issue with court with wide receivers getting paid they kind of grow on trees now wide receiver ones are not scarce which is another it's unlike the running back position wide receiver ones are not scarce yes they are needed i think you need a top target whether that be an elite tight end like rob ronkowski or travis kelsey or whether or if you have uh mike evans or off the top of my head um jerry rice freaking uh you need that top target but they grow on trees so like yes in the same way that tom brady was able to win with a super bowl with mike evans he could have done it just as easily with a Brandon Ayuk, who is also a wide receiver one. So I think, yes, you need a wide receiver one, but when they become this great, like Justin Jefferson, it gets expensive. And you also look at his teammate, Jordan Addison,

who makes a case that he's a wide receiver one too. So literally like we, we made a real, we actually posted about this, about it, about potentially trading Justin Jefferson. We thought we'd get a lot of blowback from that. And from Vikings, we got a concerning amount of agreement from it that they have Jordan Addison and they have TJ Hawkinson to be a number two and they could use the assets they have to go and get a wide, a quarterback who's, who could potentially win you a Superbowl. Now they were able to do it this off season without having to give up significant capital. We'll see how JJ McCarthy is, but the fact that we made an argument for it and you, we didn't receive nearly as much blowback as we

thought, I think that says a lot about Justin Jefferson's impact on the team. Yes, I'm not denying his talent. I think he's a great kid. There's nothing wrong with him off the field. I just think you can't name a time where a generational wide receiver has won a Super Bowl without the elite quarterback. And you can name plenty of times where a generational wide receiver went without winning a Super Bowl. Terrell Owens and Randy Moss, most notably. You could also throw in, especially in the modern era, guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson. Julio Jones. Antonio Brown.

Wait, actually, no, no, no, never mind. I forgot he was in Tampa. Brown got there, but who was the quarterback when he won it? Oh, that's true. That's right. So that's what I'm saying. You look at Justin Jefferson and Tyree Kill, respectfully putting up incredible numbers, and every now and then their team is in the postseason. But then look at Patrick Mahomes, who has also been I believe it was in 2020, right before that season, he's made three Super Bowls. He's won two of them.

He was Super Bowl MVP in both Super Bowls he won, and he won a league MVP in one of those. And I'm pretty sure he was first team. No, no, no. He was first team All no he was first team all pro in in 20 in 22 2020 he was still really he was still really good but he just ran into a better quarterback in the super bowl um so look at so just look at that one of them was under resourced at wide receiver still went to three super bowls and won two of them the other under resourced at wide receiver still went to three Super Bowls and won two of them. The other, under-resourced at quarterback, has not sniffed a Super Bowl.

I rest my case. Yeah. And honestly, that is pretty convincing about why you should pay your quarterbacks over your receivers. But at the end of the day, if i had to hedge my bets i think that a deal will get done for both lamb and jefferson because it seems like every off season you know you have a player that's holding out of otas seriously if they're holding out a training camp then yeah that's concerning but a lot of players even with good contracts and they're they're happy with they don't go to otas and honestly i don't think otas are really the best indicator of really anything but if they hold out in camp

and maybe it spills into the season that could be uh you know that could be very very concerning sure but i believe at the end of the day both these teams for better or worse will bite the bullet and sign jefferson and lamb and i'll tell you yeah what's up because it's just i mean i even though i just went back to this argument a few minutes ago give me a break how often do these teams like let these guys go because let's face it if you can't reach an agreement and you're forced to trade one of them every nfl team is going to lowball you because when you trade a guy who needs a new contract you have absolutely no leverage justin jefferson or not your ceiling is that you might get a first that's like that's quite literally your ceiling regardless of talent level we've spoken about this before, but there's an added bit of intrigue now from a league perspective,

because Adam, as you mentioned, both of these guys were in the same year, were they not? Yes, drafted in the same year. And they both need a contract at the same time. And for Minnesota and Dallas, you are now in a race against time to pay your guy before the other one gets paid. Because let's just say Jefferson gets paid first. If you're Dallas, do you know what that means?

Lamb's asking price has gone up. Yeah. Because I would imagine both these guys fancy themselves the best receiver in the game. And there's an argument to be made, at least for Jefferson. And Lamb's certainly top five five but i don't know i i also wouldn't be shocked if one of them finds a new team likely via trade because mark my words you have egg on your face if you lose them for nothing and they walk in free agency because when was the last time like a truly like elite like game-breaking receiver hit free agency they never do exactly and now that i think of it like we gotta take a look at dallas's situation for a second because adam i encourage you to look beyond cd lamb this is

terrifying for dallas jim mar chase you were looking at Jamar Chase, right? No, no, no. I'm talking about just the Dallas Cowboys. Oh, the Dallas Cowboys. We need to look back and see, you know who else needs a new contract? Oh, your starting quarterback and Pro Bowler Dak Prescott and one of the top five edge rushers in the league in Micah Parsons. Those are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the three best players on your team and they all need new contracts now personally i don't know what gm in their right mind let that happen to have like all

your biggest names need a contract at the same time and i can already hear the dallas fans from over yonder just huffing that copium you know just, just trying to cope like, oh, we didn't do anything this offseason so we could pool our money next and get them all back. Dallas, you're not getting them all back. And if somehow you do, you have officially damned yourselves to cap hell for what I could see being the next half decade. Okay. So I definitely believe that these contracts, I'm not saying that these contracts aren't going to get done. I think it's more of a matter of when than if, right? Like you said, they never hit reach free agency,

and they honestly don't really get traded either. So they really do have that going for them. What I am saying is that later on down the road, when neither of these teams win Super Bowls, and they're in financial trouble year in, year out, all of these other teams with wide receiver ones who are pending free agency are going to be saying, well, the Vikings have Jordan Addison,

who just reached 1,000 yards yet again, and he's playing at a cheaper price. Maybe he's not as good. And you're going to find other teams who are winning Super Bowls who have wide receiver ones but aren't paying them through the teeth. And if they lose that wide receiver one, they replace him in the draft just as easily. The Vikings have Jordan Addison.

The Cowboys have an immense ability to draft offensive talent. I just look at those teams and I say, well, yes, you're going to end up paying them. But I feel like we're going to hit a stalemate and teams are going to start thinking twice before they pay their wide receivers because they're going to look at Jefferson and Lamb and say, what team achievements have you guys produced since getting paid? Yeah, it's cool to get those statistics. They're going to do that. But can they help you win the Super Bowl? And my answer is yes and no. Because you need the top target, but that top target isn't doing anything if they don't have the quarterback. And Kirk Cousins and Dak Prescott were never the answer.

I don't believe they were. And we'll see with J.J. McCarthy. Maybe they'll be okay. But it doesn't change the fact you need that quarterback more than you need the wide receiver. So those two factors quarter wide receivers not winning without suit without a quarterback and wide receivers growing on trees that is what's going to cause a stalemate in a couple of years yeah and when you couple it with something that we've mentioned before these fringe top 10 quarterbacks getting paid like their top three it's just a recipe for disaster and i just if i

end on one thing i'm i'm just shocked that we don't see more pay cuts i mean i am but i'm also not because i know nowadays a lot of guys prioritize getting their money over winning a ring and i get it to each their own but on the flip side i just you gotta realize at one point as a player that you're handicapping your team and as and why would organizations prioritize a player who's only playing for money over team success? Like if you're holding yourself above the rest of the team, that's a red flag. And then that just makes teams want to pay you even less. If you're just looking to make your money and put up statistics and be the, be the best, best wide receiver in the game for years to come, that's all fine and good, but do that winning Superbowls.

If winning Superbowls is not your top priority, when you get paid, then you shouldn't be getting paid at all, in my opinion. Right. So like, if it's not going to help, like what you need is a player who hates losing more than he likes winning.

Cause I think all of these players, they want to get paid, and they do want to win, but if they don't win, then it's not a deal-breaker because we're making money. I'm the most famous wide receiver in the game because I'm making money and I'm putting up statistics. So who cares, right? It's the same thing with justin jefferson

what have the vikings been doing the past few years with justin jefferson putting up these historic statistics yeah but the team's been mediocre for the year and they didn't literally do anything at all and you got to look at the rest of the vikings roster i mean yeah they have addison but their defense just got eviscerated I mean granted you've got guys like Renard and you just drafted Dallas Turner but this isn't a team that's going to compete and why put them in financial trouble if you really want them to succeed because what if you give uh Jefferson his mouse his uh monster extension and then what happens of what's to say they strike a gem in J.J. McCarthy

and he becomes like a Joe Burrow-level threat. Then what? Yeah. Yeah. I like their defense a little better than I think you do, but neither here nor there, even if the defense is as good as I think it's going to be, if J.J. McCarthy can't play, then the Vikings can't play.

So, so it's, it's going to be interesting seeing how it plays out. That's all. I think there's, I think we're due for a stalemate here. I think the wide receivers, the NFL PA and the NFL owners are going to be,

it's going to get ugly. I think, I think there's, we have nothing now, but once these players get their deals, if not, when, when,

not if, then there's, we, and then they don't do anything. Then we're going to see some issues here. So that's all I have, but that's all the scheduled content we have for today. You have anything else?

I do not. Yeah, me neither. Just some interesting stuff there. And Justin Jefferson and CeeDee Lamb will get their deals probably sooner rather than later. So we'll cover that whenever that happens at what point this summer. But in the meantime, that'll do it for us tonight. Thank you for listening to us. We have new episodes out on

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