The Game with Alex Hormozi - Are You Being Insulting Without Realizing It? | Ep 709

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

"Instead of talking sh*t behind someone's back, talk it to their face." In this episode, Alex (@AlexHormozi) shares the valuable distinction between insult and critique and breaks down how to have tough conversations with your team when you're trying to get better together.Welcome to The Game w/Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth.Timestamps:(0:44) Life changing concept(2:06) How do you give feedback without being insulting?(4:30) Mock critique conversation(7:10) Real story of someone who became an *sshole(13:45) How this can make organizations stronger(16:41) Closing remarksFollow Alex Hormozi’s Socials:LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Acquisition

Let's face it, you're going to have to have hard conversations sometimes and understanding the difference between an insult and criticism and how to unpack the conversation between where someone's at and where you need them to be so that you can decrease the likelihood that you have to talk to them again is the core element of management. This is one of the rare things I talk about in terms of management, but I think that you will enjoy it. How do you get people to do stuff? Now, that's obviously really wide, but I want to talk about this within the context of employees and team. And of course, these are when everyone's eyes roll over, but at the same time, they forget that this is actually how you make lots and lots of money and build an asset that's valuable and sellable and have people who are smarter than you actually running the business. And so I want to talk to you about a concept that changed my life, then I'll give you two or three tactical things that have helped me. So the first one that changed my life, Dr. Cashie was when he introduced me to this. You said, do you know the difference between insult and insult and criticism?

And I was like, no, please explain it to me. He said, the problem is that everybody in your organization thinks that you're insulting them when you give them feedback. And I was like, oh, that sucks. He said, yes, it does suck because then they're much less likely to do what you want them to do. I was like, okay. He said, so the difference between an insult and criticism is that an insult attacks a person. A criticism basically attacks a discrepancy or points out a discrepancy between desired and actual. And literally that definition changed how I approached a lot of the conversations and I even explained that difference to someone.

on before I give them criticism. I say, listen, a criticism would say, you suck. Sorry, an insult would be, you suck. A criticism would say, hey, you were supposed to show up on time five days this week, and you showed up on time three days this week. So there's a discrepancy between what we want and what actually happened. So me stating that as a statement of facts, it's an observation. There's no judgment attached to it.

Now, people then take that criticism and assume that you think that they suck. And a big portion of that is because that's how we are brought up. If someone's that discrepancy, anything that's not 100 on a test, It means that you suck. And a lot of the education system reinforces that point is that if there's a discrepancy, then you're a bad person. But within the professional environment, you have to be able to say, this is what happened,

this is what we wanted, there's a difference in these two things. How do we come up with a strategy to bridge the gap? Now, I think framing these things is opportunities for improvement. I mean, as trite as it sounds, still sounds way better as saying, hey, I think there's some opportunities for improvement here, and let's see if we can improve them for you. And so one of the things that I say is my big telltale sign that I need to have one of these conversations,

is that I earlier on in my career was a big shit talker. It's actually something that I don't enjoy about myself. I was like, this guy sucks and here's why, right? And the thing is, is that the here's why is the criticism, the sucks, the judgment. And so I realized that the biggest hack I've had is when I had the desire to vent about someone's poor performance, rather than talking about it behind their back, if I just said it to their face first, I would have social permission to be able to say it later. because then I'd say, hey, John's been really blowing at this.

I'm like, don't worry, I've already talked to John about it. That way, it's not some big secret. Like, oh, Alex is saying something that he's not telling, no, no, no, I told John first. And so the idea is that you can absolutely talk shit about somebody, just talk it to their face first so they have the opportunity to improvement. Now, here's where it gets important. It's that when you do talk shit to John's face,

John actually has the opportunity to defend himself and give the reasons why. And say, hey, now, whenever you ask, and this is another thing that I've learned, why did this happen? People will always give you a reason. Whether the reason's valor or not is kind of irrelevant, because what you basically does,

you prompt them to just come up with something to give a narrative for the reason for the discrepancy, which for me as a business owner, not that important. What I do care about, and this is, again, being clear, and this is something that I've learned

and giving feedback, is saying, I actually have no judgment on whether it's bad or good or anything. I want to increase the likelihood that this happens more in the future, or I just want to decrease the likelihood if this occurs again. And so then the follow-up question I have to that is, what would it take?

And so what would it take to get you to show up on time five days a week compared to the three that you continue to do? What would it take to get you to stop jumping in and interrupting people when they're talking? What would it take? So we have the discrepancy between what I want or what the desired behavior is and what your current behavior is. And so all I want to do is come up with a strategy that we can agree on together that we can execute and that you can buy into.

So what would you do if you or me who were having this conversation with you? what would you give yourself as instructions here to decrease the likelihood this occurs again or increase it if it's a good thing? And usually the person comes up, like the strategies for figuring out how to solve these problems, like human problems are old, and the older the problem, the older the solution.

Most of the times with behavior stuff, you don't need to reinvent the wheel here. You need to get them to be bought in to whatever the problem is. And so a different frame for this, if you're having these conversations, I want to give you a handful of frameworks that's been helpful for me,

is understanding why someone didn't do something. Now, getting into their whole past reinforcement history, we don't have time for that. But I fundamentally get into, I figure that you didn't do this because you didn't know that I wanted you to do it. Or you didn't know how to do it. Right? So both of those things, one is a lack of communication, the other is a lack of training. So the lack of communication might be on me. And if they say, well, I didn't know that, you wanted me to do it, I'd be like, so when I emailed you this and I said this, this, what part of that did you not understand?

Now, this is where you can create the discrepancy. It's like, okay, I sent you this email. You didn't do this thing. what would it take for when I send you these emails in the future for to make sure that it happens? Well, it didn't get put into Asana. It's like, okay, well, do you think we can just create a Zapier that ties emails from me to Asana?

Because guess what, that's true and that happens? Or that you can assume that whenever I slack you, that you can immediately put it into Asana. And if you want, I will also do my part and remind you to put that in Asana, or I could just put it to Asana directly. So if instead of emails, you just want me to put it there, would that be easier for you?

Yes, great. Well, it takes me the same amount of time. And so little conversations like that, but the vast majority of time people are too chicken shit to actually say, hey, John, you're doing this, this is what we wanted, why is there a discrepancy between these two things? And giving them the language or the excuse of, did you not know that I wanted you to do it? Or did you not know how to do it? And by just pointing at those two things, you have one, which is communication, the other is training.

And so those things are now solvable and becomes a productive discussion. This is an opportunity for improvement, because if you want to move up in this company, which I'm assuming you do, I want to help you. you do that. And so, again, as the manager, our goal, and I see manager in a loose term here, if you have anybody who rolls into you, the goal is, how do I increase the likelihood that they can get what they want through the organization that I have? And if we can ask that question, then we can frame the solution for the problem that we're trying to solve with the solution that they want with their career. Hey guys, real quick, you'll notice that I'd never have any

paid sponsors on my podcast. And so here's my ask in exchange for never having paid sponsors on my podcast. If you could share this with your employees or your managers so that they can have more effective conversations, I think that the aggregate effect of us helping thousands of managers help hundreds of thousands of employees have better work will make more entrepreneurs, more money, and have people enjoy their jobs more. So share this with the world. And if you're feeling extra generous, leave a review. It would mean a lot. Let me tell you a quick example of this. And so I had somebody, you know, years ago, who was struggling with an e-eague. ego problem. So basically they would, you know, basically they got a promotion and then all

of a sudden they thought that they were, you know, king of the world. And I had to have a meeting with them and we called these Papa talks. And I said, hey, John, you're being a dick. So that's an insult. And I started with that because I knew it would be jarring because he'd had multiple conversations before this and he wasn't being receptive. And so I said, hey, everyone thinks you're a dick. And I was like, but here's the thing is, is that before the promotion, no one thought you were a dick, which is why you got the promotion. And so the promotion is now in jeopardy because of your new dick behavior. And so how do we go back?

So what would it take for you to return to your previously behavior? I said, would a demotion be more acceptable for you to return to that behavior? He's like, well, I don't really want that. I mean, I guess that could happen. I'd be like, okay. So what changed? What happened after this promotion that changed your behavior? And the words that he said was, I thought that we were all.

equal. He said, I thought that we were all equal here now because I, you know, I got this promotion. I just thought I was on the same, you know, playing field as everyone else. I said, oh no, oh no. And this is a biblical one, but I'll share it with you, which is, and I'm loosely paraphrasing, if you want to be humbled, exalt yourself. If you want to be exalted, sorry, if you want to be humbled, exalt yourself. Jesus, I'm messing it up. Basically, he who is, he who exalts himself will get humbled. He who humbles himself will be exalted. He who And so if you want everybody to exalt you and speak up about you, which is what happened prior to this promotion, the reason that you got it was because you were so humble and you were so hard working, and you just did your job day in and day out.

Whereas as soon as you became a dick, you started talking about how great you are, and everyone now wants to cut you down because they want to bring you down to where you were before. And so I want you to be exalted. I want everyone in the company to be singing your praises. The individual had a nickname that we used to say about the guy before he had the person. promotion. And then after he had the promotion, no one said it anymore. I said, have you noticed that no one calls you that cool nickname that we had? And he was like, yeah, I guess I just call myself that now. And I was like, right, isn't that kind of lame? He was like, yeah, I didn't really think about it like that. I was like, right. So wouldn't you prefer it for everyone else to say how awesome you are? He was like, yeah, I definitely prefer that. And I'd be like, well, let's just look at the behaviors.

One is, you're trying to tell people how to do their job. As like, before this, you didn't do that. why do you think you somehow know how to do other people's job that you've never done before? Better than them. He's like, well, I didn't. I think I was just going to get in full of myself. And I was like, okay. I was like, so why don't we just cease all talking

about how someone else needs to do their job? I was like, let's do that as step one. He's like, okay, I can do that. I was like, step two, because this is somebody had deliverables. It was an internal role. Deliverables to other departments. I said, one of the other things you do

is that you try and get people to say now that the work you did was exceptional when they don't agree. and you basically try and stronger on them into saying it was good or good enough for what they needed for their department. So think about this as an IT role hypothetically. Hey, I did this work, I did this integration.

Does that work? Now, most people would be like, it doesn't work yet. It's not working the way we need it to. And it's like, yeah, it does. It does exactly what you said it does. You can see how aggressive and annoying that would be, especially when you're like, no, I mean, it doesn't. And so I said, number two is that

I want you to see everyone in the organization is your customers. You're now a business owner. You're an entrepreneurial interested person, which is why you've got to talk to my stuff to begin with. I was like, I want you to think, about every single person as a customer of yours.

And so this is a great practice for you. So this is framing it in terms of the thing that they ultimately want. So if you want to have customers, they're always going to be right. Now, people have lots of debate on, is the customer always right? I think for the vast majority of time, the answer is yes, is that you have to take all the blame. And so you say, you know what?

I was like, I promise you. He said, but I have deadlines that I have to meet for me as a person, that I have all these things that everyone knows that I have to get done. And if I don't get them done on time, because they have to accept them, then I'm going to be late. I said, John, don't worry about it. Because this is what's going to happen. I was like, let's play it out.

Let's say you deliver the project to Connie, right? And you say, hey, Connie, this is good enough. And she says, no, it's not good enough. What I want you to say there is, you're right. What would it take to make it perfect for you? And then I want you to go back and do it and keep presenting until eventually Connie accepts it. Now, if it takes a long time and you miss your deadline,

what am I going to do as the overarching manager? I'm going to say, hey, John, like, what's taking so long in this project? You're going to say, Connie hasn't been able to accept my third or fourth revision on this. Then I'm going to go to Connie and say, hey, Connie, show me the stuff that John did. And then she's going to show me what you did. And I'm going to be like, Connie, I think you're being unrealistic here. Now, guess who's in, quote, trouble there? Guess who now has the problem that has to get solved?

Not you. It's Connie. Because I'm going to put pressure on Connie because that deliverable is part of her larger deliverables because I need her to get something done too, right? Of course. And so it's your thinking one step ahead rather than two or three steps ahead. And so I'd encourage you because a lot of times this is the real stuff. Like this is how it comes up, right?

Where people are like, well, I don't want to get blamed because everyone's so afraid of blame. It's this big thing. Everyone's afraid of blame. You say, I'm not blaming anyone. I want this organization to work. And so playing it out one or two steps and saying, no, no, no. The outcome that you think is going to happen isn't what actually happens. This is what would happen.

And so this is what you doing your job perfectly looks like. It means you delivering, like everybody's a customer, and taking 100% of their feedback. Now, if everybody starts piling too much work on you, then I either have to hire more people to support you, which is on me to do, or I have to edit their behavior and say, hey, I need you to take 80% work and run with it the other 20, so that John can get his job done because he has to serve other people in the organization besides you. But that's a conversation I have with them, not you. And now, guess what? What do you think happens at quarterly?

Everyone's like, dude, John's a fucking machine. John just crushes work. He helps everyone out in the organization. He never asks for credit. And then they're going to exalt you. And so fundamentally, I want everyone in our companies to be exalted by everyone else rather than trying to exalt themselves, trying to do this political BS of positioning and credit taking and blame giving.

I hate that shit. And I don't want it in my organization. And so if you don't want in your organization, you have to punish that behavior and reward the behavior that is the right behavior, which is, I want you to just crush your job. I want you to do it exceptionally well. And if you keep doing it,

then we will expand the scope of your responsibilities because I want more like you. And so whenever you give promotions, you basically vote literally with your dollars about what you want to proliferate and what to multiply in an organization. If you promote someone who has poor behavior, not only will that person bring more people

who behave that way, but you also signal to everyone else this is what I want. And so when you make these corrective actions, and I'm very, like we try, sincere candor is one of the, we only have three values at Acquisition.com, and sincere candor is one of them.

And we do that because I want to be able to say, hey, guys, I corrected so-and-so's behavior that you guys said. John was acting like a dick. And so I wanted to address John, and John, do you think we addressed it? And John's like, I think we addressed it. Guys, I'm sorry.

I'm also going to circle back with each of you guys individually and re-get the stuff that you need for, you know, the IT job or the project that I'm working on with you, and I'm going to be operating from this way going forward. And I'm asking you guys to hold me accountable to that. And that way we have two-sided accountability, and I know and everyone knows the rules of the game,

so there's not this secrecy. And by doing it that way, everybody else learns, again, what is rewarded and what isn't rewarded. So they know, no, actually that period of time when John was being a dick wasn't a problem at all. Or it was a problem. It wasn't being encouraged because this is actually how we want to do things. They're not acting not in accordance with their values.

They just hadn't gotten to it yet, and now they have gotten to it, and they've worked on it. And so it's going to improve. And so big picture, number one, understanding the difference between insults and criticism. Insult is an attack on a person, criticism of discrepancy between desired and actual. Second is what are the questions that we used to unpack that, which is one, hey, this is an area of opportunity for improvement? Two, what would it take? And why weren't you able to do this? And underneath of why wouldn't you able to do this, is it because you didn't know that I wanted you to do it?

Or is that you didn't know how to do it, which is a skill deficiency, and I can help train you. on that. And so when you use this little Christmas tree, it's worked very well for me for having these, quote, hard conversations. And I would highly, highly encourage you to just be honest and not sugarcoat. Because the vast majority time, when I look at calls where someone tries to get feedback to someone, they tiptoe around it. They beat around the bush. And the other person has to try, like if you want someone to read between the lines, you're going to have people reading blank space because there's nothing between lines, right? You want to tell them the exact words because even if you're perfect in your explanation, they already have so much noise in their head

because they're so afraid of getting blame for stuff that you can, by giving them the clear directives of this is exactly what I want to do. And this is an example of when you didn't do it, is you want to talk about the behaviors. Fuck emotions, fuck intentions, fuck blame. Just talk about this is what you're currently doing. This is what I want you to do,

and what would it take for this to happen? And this has simplified all of this. It's like, dude, I don't blame, I don't care. I don't care why. I don't care about your motivation behind you. it because you're going to make up a narrative about why you didn't do or why you did do it. Like if I wanted an excuse, I could ask 100 people for an excuse and they could just give me random excuses.

What I want is to decrease the likelihood that this conversation occurs again. And I think being very clear about it from that perspective will decrease the likely that you have those conversations and get the right people to reward the right behaviors. TLDR, instead of talking shit behind someone's back, talking to their face and focus purely on their behaviors, not on the blame or their intention or their motivation. or their reason why or their excuses, just say, this is where you're at, this is where you need to be. There's a gap between these two things.

How do we increase the likelihood that we close this gap?