The Game with Alex Hormozi - Defining Opportunity and Leverage (w/ Ed Mylett) Pt. 1 - Aug. '22 | Ep 473

Episode Date: December 17, 2022

“You can either let life beat the strength out of you, or you can let it beat into you…” Today, join Alex (@AlexHormozi) as he guests on Ed Mylett’s Show to talk about his definitions of what opportunity and leverage mean to him, the everyday urgency blueprint, and overcoming his struggle to “prove to a fictitious person that they’re wrong”. This is part 1 of the interview.Welcome to The Game w/Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth.Check out the episode on Ed Mylett’s YouTube Channel!Timestamps:(1:27) - Opportunity, leverage importance in Alex's perspective.(6:39) - Leverage defined; exploration of four types.(12:22) - Overcoming challenges; proving oneself to a fictional critic.(16:23) - Overcoming the struggle of proving oneself to his dad.(19:13) - Living in the present, practicing gratitude, Alex's perspective.(24:53) - Everyday Urgency Blueprint: Boring work, repeating successful actions.Follow Alex Hormozi’s Socials:LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Acquisition

I was thinking about my 85-year-old self, and I know that that man, looking back at me today, would trade everything he has to be 32 again. And not only just 32 again, he'd be 32 and picking up trash, having nothing. I know that I would trade all my wealth to do that. The wealthiest people in the world see business as a game. This podcast, The Game, is my attempt at documenting the lessons I've learned on my way to building Acquisition.com into a billion dollar portfolio. My hope is that you use the lessons to grow your business and maybe someday soon, partner with us to get to $100 million and beyond.

I hope you share and enjoy. I have been looking forward to this interview for a few weeks. Mutual friends of ours that turned me on to Alex said, you need to get with this young man and get him on your show. And then when I dove into his content and his work, I was blown away. He is brilliant. I don't say that very often when I introduce people. I think he's probably got one of the highest IQs of anybody I've ever had on the show. And his content as it relates to personal success and particularly entrepreneurship is very unique, very special, very detailed.

and I wish we had three hours today like other podcasts have because we could use that entire three hours and still have a bunch of time and stuff left over. I was so impressed with him. I went into all of his content and then I said, can you be here next week, like one week from now? And he goes, yep, I'm there. And then he looked.

I think it was your anniversary or something. So I gave him a reprieve for a couple weeks and now he's here today. You guys, this is like, you're on the treadmill, you're going to start running faster than you normally run and you're going to want to get to a notepad too. So here we go.

Let's just dive into all your stuff. We're going to go all over the place. You have this really unique. definition of even what opportunity is in it of itself that I've never heard before. So how would you define like just the term and the concept of opportunity? So it was something that I was analyzing a lot because we get lots of entrepreneurs who are like, hey, what should I do with my life, et cetera? And when I look at how my income has increased, you know, throughout my career, a lot of times it wasn't a function of the work ethic. In the beginning, you have to work, right? But then

the next big lever on that is the opportunity. And so if you think, about any kind of output in a system as volume times leverage equals output, the work has to start. So you have to have something to multiply, which is the effort. And then the next is that leverage. And so within the context of a business, I tried to define it for myself, which was how many potential units of the product can I sell? And then what is the gross margin potential of the product that I'm trying to sell? And then what are the competitive dynamics within the marketplace? And so an example of something that has two of the three and not necessarily all three would be like, if I want to get into telecommunications. So I said, okay, I hate that I have no service.

Like, I want to solve this problem. And so I'd say, well, everybody needs phone stuff. So huge, huge potential market. The gross margins on an additional user is almost 100%. So, okay, really attractive. But then what are the competitive dynamics? Oh, I would have a really hard time entering into this marketplace because it's super capital intensive, et cetera. And it's like, okay, so maybe the opportunity in, now we rewind the clock.

Yeah. 50, 60 years or 80 years. And that was the opportunity, right? Because you had all three of the dynamics. But then you look at newer things like crypto, you look at, you know, the cannabis industry, which is still nascent. And those were a lot of people smoke weed or want to, you know, be involved in that industry or participate in consuming it, right?

There's great margins, especially if you're vertically integrated within the space. And the competitive dynamics are still like, you can. still be a new entrant and have a huge amount of market share as it's continuing to grow faster than the rest of the marketplace as well. So there's a fast-growing market that's growing faster. So if you just stayed the same as the market, you're still going to outpace anybody else. Really good. And there's fewer people taking it up. And so it's like you have two competitive dynamic kind of like trail wins behind you. And so when I looked at like we exited our three companies last year, I was like, okay, I want to be really, really selective about what opportunity we pursue

because I know that, you know, Warren Buffett's like one of my big heroes. And he talks about how it's much more about, not about how hard you row, but about what boat you're in. And he tells a story about how he had a companion who was basically the same as him. And they both split off from Columbia. And he became Warren Buffett and the other guy just had a normal career in the steel business. Different opportunity. And so I think being selected about the opportunities we pursue is probably the greatest

leverage point you have on your career. What if you're in the middle of one? So this is a really interesting topic. I was thinking about driving in here today. I wanted to ask you some of this stuff like your take on. And by the way, our take is very similar. But I think this is an interesting time where perhaps you should be evaluating your boat. People just keep rowing, don't they?

Like, just keep rolling because you're so far and you're like, I'm 70% of the way down the road here. I'll just row harder. But I'm wondering about looking at that boat, two things on it. One, should someone that's really laser focus, should they even look up and evaluate the boat? And two, what about these times? You spoke about Buffett. They had this great talk a few weeks ago about inflation and about maybe what your boat should or shouldn't look like in high inflationary times, which we're clearly in now. So does inflation impact

any of what you've described in terms of evaluating the boat or what you do with it? I would say two components. So first would be someone's timeline. And so if they're like five years from retirement, it doesn't really make sense. You should eke out the compounding returns you have of the 30 years that you put into whatever it is, but not should. That would be, you know, if I were in that instance, that's what I would do. If you can think in longer cycles and you have one, two entrepreneurial cycles left, then you get the opportunity cost starts to really way in. We're like, okay, well, I might not make as much next year, but three years from now, I could be making five times as much. Am I willing to give up two years of earning to make five

times more three years from now and then set myself off for the rest of that time? The younger you are, in my opinion, the more you should be taking those types of bets. And then within an inflationary period, this is, you know, Uncle Warren speaking, but you want to have things that have low capital expenses, so you don't need to add new equipment, new facilities in order to expand whatever business you're in. and then you want it to be things that produce lots of cash flow. And so if you have something that's high cash flow and has low capital expenses, when you're growing in an inflationary period, you can adjust the prices very easily.

And when you make those adjustments, it drops straight to bottom line rather than having to then go back, buy more equipment, which now has eaten up that additional cash flow. Yeah. See, I totally agree with you, by the way, this idea right now of scalability, which we're going to talk about in a minute too.

By the way, when he says young people, when you're listening to this man speak, he's 32 years old. And so there's two things about you. One, your brain's really big. And two, you have a wisdom far beyond your years. My sense is that that has a little bit to do with your relationship with your dad, which we might get into later. And the other is just vast amount of experiences you've crammed into basically your 10 years or so post-college. One of the things you've been pretty good at doing, though, is using leverage.

And leverage to most people typically means borrowing money from other people. But you define leverage freaking brilliantly. So talk a little bit about what real leverage is and the way you define it. So leverage is the difference between the inputs and outputs in a system. It's the discrepancy between what you put in and what you get out. So if I have a lot of leverage, then it means if I put a little bit in, I get a lot out. Five, low leverage, I have to put a lot in to get a little bit out. If I'm working at a Froyo shop, I have to put a lot of time in to get a very little amount of money.

So I have very low leverage. If I put a deal together, right? And I make a couple phone calls. and then that deal yields me $10 million from connecting parties and then maybe underwriting something, all of a sudden, that's a lot of leverage. So I put a very little bit amount of time in. I get a lot of money.

And so the idea of using more leverage is looking at what my inputs and my outputs are and figuring out how I can create bigger and bigger discrepancies between those. Are there different types of leverage other than just money? Yes. Which are? So anything that increases your output without per unit of effort is leverage. And so that can happen in the physical space. So like a literal lever is increases your leverage.

If I take this, we take this podcast and you put it on YouTube, that was leverage because we put the same input in, but then we get more output. If I have a cold calling system and I'm able to now dial 10 phone numbers per minute because I have a dialer that's doing outbound, I have more leverage per unit time. If I take a form of media and then I transcribe it and then I also make an audio version that is leverage. So all of those are different versions of just getting more out for what you put in. Hard question. So I, uh, let's let's, let's dig deep. I'm an entrepreneur and I'm listening to this. Doesn't matter. I can even be self-employed. I sell life insurance. I'm a mortgage broker.

I'm in real estate. I've got a cannabis business. I got six people working for me. And I now kind of get from listening to this dude and listening to Ed regularly, like this idea of leverage is what successful and wealthy people do, right? They do it better than other people. This is a really big deal, everybody, listening to this right now. They do this better than you. They understand the concept of this better than you. And to the extent that you can understand it, and most importantly, apply it is where you make a shift. So it's a hard question because you've answered it, but I want to push you harder on this. If I have any type of business right now, and I've evaluated the concept that you've described here, how do I apply it? What do I look at in terms of buttons

I could push to get more leverage? Yeah. So Naval Ravacant does a really good job of defining his four types of leverage. Now, within those, I described a lot of different leverage around one, which is media, right? But you have leverage around labor, which is you buy other people's time. So that is the first version of leverage? So is there something that I'm currently doing that I can pay someone else to do to gain time back and then use the excess time I have to make up the difference? So if I can pay someone $10 an hour and I know that I can make $50 an hour on the phone selling, then I can pay somebody to do any of my tasks for $10 and then I make up the time selling. Stay on that. Brilliant. We're going to go to the other three. But just stay on that. This is something

I struggled with young. I don't know if you did. When I was young, I didn't have a lot of capital. I used to think, no, I'll just, I will do these things because I can't afford the expenditure right now. Were you ever that way when you were young in business? Totally. I just held on. Because I'm like, I had the scarcity idea that this may be the $2,000 a month that keeps me in business. Yet it was the very thing that kept me in the small business I had. I think there, I mean, you got to work double time. There's no real sexy answer that I have for that, which is just like, you have to work the normal amount you would to make your money. And then you work again to make someone else's money. And that's in the beginning.

So it's like, I'm making my job and I'm making someone else's job so that I can buy that time that I used to work to pay someone else to then make more money in that period of time. Really good. And the big thing that I think a lot of guys, because I on the flips out of the entrepreneur space, the influencer or whatever space, people are always talking about buying your time back. But they don't talk about what you do with the time back. So if you just buy your time back and don't do anything, you're going to make less money. I just want to be clear. But I had an entrepreneur who was talking about all my time back. He's like, but I'm really not making it.

I was like, you're not doing anything. You still need to work. You just got to now work on higher leverage opportunities, more dollars per time. So that input is my time. My output is my money. So it's a higher leverage thing in my time. What are the other three? So you got labor, which is the most operationally complex and heavy of the types of leverage.

The next one is capital. If you can raise money, leverage other people, that's the one that, you know, the mortgage workers instead are they're more familiar with real estate guys. Because if I don't have to put any money up and I can buy something and then I can sell it for more money, then I get to make the difference between those two things. and I used it on basically someone else took the time to earn the money. And then they just gave me that time, if you think of money as a tradable unit of time,

that I got to borrow and then make the difference on something. The third one, and I think three and four kind of go hand in hand. But it's you've got software, code, and then media. So code is just, you know, you write code, and it takes you one-time investment to get the thing to do something. And then every additional time, so the input was the time I took to build once.

and then every additional person who uses the software and gets a benefit from it, I get almost no incremental cost. And so that's leverage. And then with the media side, we said it earlier. If it takes the amount of time for us to make this one podcast, if one person listens to this or a million people listen to this, it's the same amount of effort. Yeah. Hey, Mosin, Nation, quick break just to let you know that we've been starting to post on LinkedIn and want to connect with you. All right, so send me a connection request and note letting me know that you listen to the show and I will accept it. There's anyone you think that we should be connected with. Tag them in one of my. or layless posts, and I will give you all the love in the world. All right, so let's get back to the show. I told you guys when I introduced some of those would be stuff you've not heard before. So, and it is.

There's another type of leverage, and I really related to this. I'm 20 years further down the road than you on some of these things, but I very much relate to some of the things you talk about. Obviously, you have this relationship with your dad. Maybe we'll go there, but that you were just trying to prove him wrong all the time. But you said something in one of your quotes, you said, I found out later that I was constantly trying to prove a fictitious person wrong, meaning the type of leverage that I got on myself when I was young was,

I'm going to prove them wrong, I'm going to prove them wrong. I was like this. I mean, I think the best way to describe me as an early entrepreneur was a little bit angry. And I leveraged intensity. I leveraged anger. I actually leveraged fear of losing to this fictitious person, of them being right. And by the way, some of that probably served me really, really well. But I don't know that it was healthy long term.

So what about that getting leverage on your self-ide? Would you recommend someone operate out of that space and talk about your own journey on it? I would recommend you use the resources you have to create the life you want. And so if the cards that you have dealt right now are anger and fear and disappointment, then you can either wallow in those or you can turn something good out of it. And so, I mean, I love the saying you can either let life beat the strength out. of you or you can let it beat it into you. And I think that you can use that. You could put pain, you could put disappointment, you could put fear, whatever that life, you know, thing is. And so it's

just a decision of whether these circumstances are going to serve me or I'm going to serve them. And so I think that whatever your raw materials are, a lot of people lament what cards they're dealt, but you don't have control over those cards. You only have control of how you play the hand. And so I think everyone just needs to move past that and, you know, stop the pissing contest on who had a sadder upbringing. Yeah, I also think, though, that you have to be, if you're making progress, you know, one of the things that's made Jordan great or Brady great is changing the leverage they get on themselves.

So it's not that Tom Brady still isn't playing football to prove the fact that he was a six-round draft pick, right? But this notion that that's what he gets up every single day, that's the chip on his shoulder anymore is not true. He's now playing for greatness. He's playing because it's his standard. He's praying to, and I find with a lot of entrepreneurs, they don't ever change the leverage. And so when they get to where they have proved that fictitious person wrong,

or they have gotten to where they are no longer starving, they don't have any mechanism to drive themselves any further. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. I think a lot of people are just oblivious to the fact that you've lost leverage. I'm not motivated anymore. I'm not inspired. It's because the old lever you pulled that worked at one stage,

you need to now find. Jordan used to say, listen, I play every day. Jordan didn't take a bunch of games off. He'd say, because there's a kid in the stands who it's the one time he's ever going to see me play is that night in Sacramento. And even though it's the Kings, I'm going to play all out because that kid's going to tell stories about seeing me play. That's different than his motivation, his rookie year to prove he belonged in the league, right?

Entrepreneurs don't find that new lever. You obviously have. So I've made some content on that specific thing that Michael Jordan said. So I like super resonate on that. Like that was my biggest of the whole series that I watched, that was like the point where I like had to pause and like chew on it. but it really made me appreciate like every, every podcast, every opportunity that we have to share something to really try and bring it

rather than call it in. You know what I mean? But yeah, for me, my leverage has changed. I think I was really angry younger and more fearful than angry. Just the idea of the disappointment and him being right was just like unbearable. Him being dead. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think, I think, that anger is typically the manifestation of fear? And so I, when I say angry, I wasn't throwing chairs all the time or thing like that. But there was this almost like game day intensity type anger every day to the way I approached my life and my business. So let's just touch on it since we've gone there for a minute because everyone has these different things that move them. But as I get it, your dad was a doctor. And just no matter what you freaking did, it was just never good enough. It was just, hey, man, you got you got a 99 on the spelling test.

What was up with the one you missed? Right. or, you know, I've made millions of dollars, dad. Yeah, but you're a Vanderbilt, magna cum laude, blah, blah, blah. Why aren't you a brain surgeon or a neuro or whatever, right? So this was a driving mechanism for you. Has it been resolved now? And I think a lot of people can relate to this.

I'm going to prove my parents wrong. I'm going to prove this hater wrong. I'm going to prove this friend of mine wrong. Yes, it has been resolved. I kept leveling up the ante of like, I would have make as much as my dad. I want to make more than my dad. I want to make more than my dad's ever made as. entire life. Like, you know, all of those kind of like points. And then once that had, once I thought it

was beyond contestation, it was undeniable. And that was the, I mean, that was my first goal. It's like, I wanted to be beyond reproach. I didn't want there to be a pause or whisper or hesitation in saying you want. And so after transitioning from that, it was like, but I didn't have a gap in, in, in motivation, though, to be honest. Yeah. So yeah, I didn't, I didn't really have a gap from there. It was just what else can I do? And how big can this get? And, and, And I want to see what life looks like when we're there. I think that's the separator, though. I think most do.

And I think the reason you've had multiple exits. And then you decided, okay, I'm going to go into social media. And then you've been good at that, right? I think that that's because you haven't had the gap. But I think you'd agree with me. The vast majority of people listening to this, either have not become successful yet or get to a particular level. And they bought their time back and then they do nothing with it.

Like what you said, they just can't find that. That starvation fear thing that they had when they were broke, they just don't have it now that they're eating, you know, they can go to Maastroes and have dinner and get a glass of wine once in a while, right? And they go, okay, that was it. And I think part of that is because it was always this place to get away from and also that it's not become a standard.

Like for me, I think often in life, we don't know, what do you get your goal or not as immaterial? You're going to get your standard long term. So I'm always evaluating what my standard is. And for me, that standard is I want to be excellent. I want to be great. I also want to contribute. And I know that I was on my show recently, Rory Vaden, he said something that's probably never going to leave me the rest of my life.

He says, you're best equipped and capable of helping the person you used to be. Oh, yeah. But what I heard was, that's why it's incumbent upon me to keep growing and changing so that there are previous versions of me of people that I can help. Like, I look in you and there's a part of me when I was studying your stuff. I'm like, I'd like to become close to this dude because I think I can help him because I've been the 32-year-old successful dude. You've got a great wife that you talk about all the time. I want to watch you the next 20 years, like legit change the planet. Because I think you have the drive and the intellect and the experience to do it.

So, but speaking of that time, the next 20 years, I have this debate with my friends all the time. I'm like, so if you could give up all your money, but you could get 10 years back in your life, would you do it? Would you go back to 15 years old again? And it's interesting. I'm diving into your stuff. And you literally said, I would easily, I think you said, correct me if I'm wrong,

I would give up all of my money to get 10 years back and be 20 years. 22 years old again. Is that accurate? Because you're nodding, but we're on audio. Okay. And then you also connect it to what the next 10 years also means or doesn't mean to you. Yeah. Everyone? Like, just get ready for this answer right here because it's awesome. Go ahead. Well, I play with time a lot in terms of like when I think through decisions. And so I was thinking about my 85-year-old self. And I do think that I'll be a billionaire or multi-billioner. Just look down on the math if I don't change anything right now. And I know that that man, looking back at me today would trade everything he has to be 32 again. And not only just 32 again,

he'd be 32 and picking up trash, having nothing. I know that I would trade all my wealth to do that. And so to the same degree, if I were to look 10 years into the future, I know that that 42-year-old would trade everything he has to be my age again. And so it forced me to take a new look at what I was supposedly sacrificing time, et cetera, for for something that I know that I would willingly trade back to have the moment. And so it made me. me experience the present in through old eyes anew. Oh my gosh. And what's that mean? Does that mean that you choose what you're doing more carefully? Does it mean you're more present in the moment? What is, how does that apply in a manifest itself? This is something that I think a lot about. Me too.

So I, so Caleb's probably not in the back. I call it the grandfather frame. Give me two minutes. You got it all. So there's something called the frame of the veteran, which is if you're really upset about something. If you imagine that that thing were to happen a thousand times in a row every single day, all of a sudden, it starts to become immaterial because it's just how you expected it to be. It's always this way. If every time you go to traffic, it's always an hour, you're not going to get as upset about it if you know that happens every single day. And so it's called the frame the veteran. And so that was really good for helping me decrease stress earlier on in my entrepreneurial career. I'd use that frame. But I was like, I wonder if I can think of a different

frame that would allow me to experience gratitude because it's something that I've struggled a lot with. I'm just not an inherently like, I don't five-minute journal every day. Like, I'm just not that guy. And so when I think about my 85 year old self waking up in a body that doesn't hurt, right? And I wake up to my wife and I look at her and I'm like, and she's so young because I'm 85 and I'm coming back to revisit this moment. And I'm thinking about the problems that I'm experiencing in the business. I'm like, how cool is this? I remember when I was doing this stuff and experiencing these little problems. I'm like, this is cute. You know what I mean? And it just gives me, it gives me this huge veil of like serenity, for lack of better term, to experience the moment through different eyes. And then to the same degree when it comes to like the rush and et cetera of like growing the business and whatnot, I think what it does is it's almost like an Occam's razor of focus of like, what are the few things that matter most right now? Are we truly helping the customer? Because when I'm 85, I'm not going to care nearly as much about the money I made, but the people I helped. And so I think it keeps the main thing, the main thing. And it allows, at least for me and I want to be very clear, I try to keep this frame at the forefront of my mind and I practice it and it takes time. And I catch myself getting angry. I'm like, hey, If I was 85 in this moment, how would I think about this? And then it reframes the whole situation just like the frame of the veteran does. And so I'll tell you a short tactical story of this. So this is going to sound really lame.

But I had a cat, and it was two years old. And my wife and I loved the cat. Really cool dude. Anyways, he died. Had some weird heart thing. And I thought to myself, he's two years old. What if I had expected that he was only going to live six months? I was like, what if that was what all cats normally only lived was six months?

and I got him four times longer than that period of time. And so it shifted my sorrow into gratitude for just all this extra time I got to have with this little cat. Now, you can take cat, you can make it whatever you want. But like that reframing things has allowed me to decrease my emotional activity to circumstances so that I can make better decisions in the present around people, business, et cetera. And so that's served me well. I am blown away that a 32-year-old has those thoughts. But I love you because I've been having those thoughts all my life.

my dad died about a year, we'll be two years soon. And I actually moved it to one more day, not my 85 year old self, but if I had one more day, how much more grateful would I be for this challenge I'm going through right now or this moment where they walk through? Because I, too, struggled with gratitude. I actually, I struggle with being present. And I love these conversations on the show because I actually built this bizarre gratitude muscle where I was actually more grateful for the thing I was dreaming about that I didn't have.

than when I actually got it. Totally got it. Do you know what I mean by that? 100%. Yeah. And like that's not cool way to live because you're always not where you are. You're always projecting. I'm like, I would get more excited or more turned on about what I had not yet done that I

know I'm going to do than the actual very thing I was doing. Right. And now when I put it through that one last day, I go, this is pretty awesome right now. What would I give on that last day for this moment right now? Driving out here today, I had a conversation with myself about the things I want to be doing, now in my life because of this question I asked myself. And it was interesting. I was like, if I had to choose, would I actually drive, if I were choosing, would I drive out

and do this show today with you and I have one other show? And the answer today was yes. But lately there have been certain things that I was doing that I needed to do when I was young and coming through that I no longer need to do. And that valuation is really, really healthy. I'm going to give you the contrast now of your content. So we've gone to this, not Pollyanna, but conceptual thinking. But then you have this thing called the everyday urgency blueprint.

So I love the concepts of time because there's people like, you know, they're just like very spiritual, long-term thinking, almost esoteric and conceptual thinking. And then there's like the day-to-day, what the heck do you do to get to where you can afford these thoughts and conversations you and I have? So what is the everyday urgency blueprint? Because this is some good stuff right here. I'm really good. You know, it's the chopping of wood. It's the taking out the water.

We call it do the boring work, which is repeating success. actions over and over again. If it worked once, it'll work again. More times than not, people do something, it works and they think, oh, I should change it. Yes. When one of the big concepts that I preach, at least in business, is that simple scales, fancy fails. And so the idea is, how can we take something like with scale comes complexity. We do not need to add complexity to a system. If you take 100 phone calls a day and you turn it to 10,000 phone calls a day, there is inherent complexity that gets added because you have more communication lines from different people. You have systems they have to organize it, et cetera, et cetera. And so we don't need to go do more fancy things

if we simply do the volume, the complexity will come. And so we don't need to add the additional variable of complexity to scale. It happens on its own. And so simplicity, so thinking through the razor of simplicity creates a forcing function of you remove all other things besides volume to the equation. So it's like I can either sell more units or make them worth more. That's it. That's it. It's all we can do to make more money. And so always thinking through that frame of if we're trying to grow the business, do more of the thing, right? Or make the thing more expensive or worth more to the customers

we can charge more and ultimately make more per customer. And so anyways, that has been always like the rubber meeting the road of the grandfather frame of gratitude down to like you have to do the stuff that makes the money.