The Game with Alex Hormozi - Do This If You Want to Build A Business You Love (Dave Ramsey Interview) | Ep 844

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

Dave Ramsey’s Newest Book Is Out Now: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/buildWelcome to The Game w/Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned and will learn on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth.Wanna scale your business? Click here.Follow Alex Hormozi’s Socials:LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Acquisition

You're about to see a fascinating conversation I had with Dave Ramsey, where we talk about how he makes money, the advantages of in-person versus remote, a project that he lost millions of dollars on that I think has underlying lessons that any business owner can take from them. And finally, five stages of scaling, all entrepreneurs go through. I think you're going to love it. Enjoy. Welcome everyone to the game.

I'm here with Dave Ramsey, the man, the myth, the legend. Honor to be back with you, my friend. I'm so excited with everything is happening with you guys. You're blowing up, man. I'm proud to watch you. It's great. Well, thank you. We're trying to, trying to follow in the Ramsey footsteps. There's so much stuff that I had written down and prepared for today, and I doubt we'll get

to all of it. But if you could walk me through, just kind of lave the land in terms of Ramsey solutions, as the business exists today, because I think it'll be helpful for the audience to give context. Yeah, what ended up happening with us was weak, classic entrepreneurs, you know, we were a wee bit ADD. And so, you know, just something flashy and shiny went in front of us, we would look at it because, but it all came through the funnel of or the filter of, does this serve our mission? And our mission is just to help people with common sense education and empowerment in some area in their life. It started in the money piece. And so when I first started, I was doing a free, I was working for free at a talk radio station, doing a little talk

radio show on the local station. And I print a little book and started selling it out of the trunk of my car. So publishing was born, right? And then we did an event at the local. Ramada Inn, so live events were born. And so each of these, in those days, everything was analog. Of course, the internet comes along, and one of these kids working for me comes in and goes, hey, we need a website. And I'm like, what's that? And so we built a website on one of those tiny little antique, you ought to look them up. They're cool. Those little, first little Apple computers, the first little, they look like a little shoebox. And he built it, built us a site on there with coal fusion. And it was pitiful. But it was. But it was.

was still cutting edge. It was a big time deal in those days because nobody had a website. We had one of the first people had a web store to sell stuff because it was a platform. Again, platform, platform, platform, platform. So we're platform agnostic. And anytime we see an new, on our emerging platform, analog or digital, we're going to put our toe in the water and keep doing the ones we're already doing. We're not going to abandon them. If they die on their own, fine. If something runs its course, we're done with it. But, but, but, and, you know, we just go on and do the next thing. And guy walks in my office in the early 2000 and says, we need a podcast. And what's a podcast? I don't even know what this is. And we were one of the first, certainly one of the first in

talk radio to put a podcast out because the talk radio people resisted it. They were afraid it was competition. So on and on and on and on it goes. And now we end up today. We've got about 14 profit centers here inside the organization today. There's about 1100 of us. 650,000 square foot campus that were, you know, that you've been here and hung out with us at our home. And so we've got the Entree Leadership brand where we're teaching leadership and coaching small businesses. And we've got events around that, books around that. The book we're talking about today is from that idea. And we've got a huge coaching business in that area, coaching small businesses, 200 and fewer team members.

And we're not real good with the large corporate goobers. we don't help them much. So, and then we've got the, obviously we've got all the stuff in the money space. Financial Peace University is now digital. It's no longer a VHS or a DVD or even an MP3. It's a digital format. We're rolling that up into slowly, we're in beta to slowly start to move pieces of that into the every dollar app, which is the largest budgeting, one of the largest budgeting apps on the planet right now.

We've had 50 million downloads with that. that app is huge. It's exploding. It's fabulous. It's very robust. Our tech team has done an incredible job. So that's the digital, very scalable thing, you know, on one end of the barbell. And then we've still got coaches over on the other end.

And we still do small, high-end ultra-VIP platinum events where 25 people go to my event barn at my farm and hang out with me for a weekend. So we go all the way. We stretch the spectrum from the high margin, high touch, expensive thing all the way over to free on the every dollar app or free on the podcast consumption or the YouTube consumption. Probably more of an answer than you wanted, but that we're all over the place. All of these things, though, have to do with just, is there another way to preach this message? Is there another platform? So we're platform agnostic. Someone said, you're a best-selling author.

No, that author is one of the things we do. You're a talk radio guy. No, but talking on the microphone is just one of the things we do. We're not, and we're not married to any of them. I got one wife, and that's plenty. All right, I have a bunch of follow-ups on that. So with all these different profit centers, number one is what? You have 14, and it's been, how many years?

35 years, 40 years, since you started? About 35 years. 35 years. So it's roughly like, you know, Like one profits that are per two and change years, right? Two and a half years almost on the nose. That gets started. It would be more than that because we've killed some along the way.

Yeah, even better. So what makes something worth pursuing versus what makes something a no? Is it just its on mission? Because I would imagine that you have resource constraints. You can't do everything that you would love to do. So what makes something, quote, worth doing versus not worth doing? Well, these days we are much better. and the old days I was just, we just did it.

I mean, it was like stupid. It was just stupid. But nowadays we actually do run a beta on something, and we look at the ROIs, and we look at the customer acquisition cost, the ROAS, and so forth. And we're looking at, you know, is this a good use of our bandwidth, of our marketing bandwidth, of our leadership time frame, you know, the time invested, overhead committed to this project. And so, I mean, we can, you know, we drop a lot of stuff in the test bucket. And, but if it doesn't, if it's not going to have a great ROAS, if it's not going to have a great

conversion, and if it's not going to have a great margin when we're done, we can't afford to do it because of opportunity cost. We can afford financially to do it. But the missed opportunity on something that was working 10x of what this little thing that we fell in love with over here but sucks, you know, we have to just let the thing that sucks die and it didn't make it out of the test tube that's all it amounts to you take more of a test test quickly lots of ideas kind of strategy and if something something hits then it's then you double down on those things that's kind of how you think through kind of new product or expansion of kind of like profit centers I think is what you said exactly and or can

we you know can we iterate it five or 10 degrees and cause it to work I don't might we'll kill everything instantaneously. But I mean, if we're going to invest even enough to get it into the test tube, we're going to iterate, iterate, iterate before we kill it. But when we lose hope that the thing is going to have a scale or have a margin that is commensurate with the resources committed, as you said, then when we lose that hope, we've got to be grownups and go, I really like this thing, but it just, it's not, it's not good business. So with these new endeavors, the first thing I wrote down when you started when you when you when you when you brought it up was was who does new and the reason i bring this up because i'd imagine a lot of business owners have many ideas you know you said at the

earlier audio like shiny object like oh this looks exciting this looks exciting this looks exciting but for something to work you typically have to have talent overseeing it and i would imagine at the point that you're at now you're probably not overseeing each of these kind of new profit centers or new ideas maybe they're you know brought to you and you review the metrics but you're not really driving unless you are in which case this is an open question um who who who does new Because are you going to take resources from something that's working? Are you bringing somebody new in? Or do you have a specific testing department that's all they do?

And then they hand it off to somebody else. Like, can you walk me through that process? Probably a hodgepodge of a little bit of all of that. I don't do it. No. But what we have created is this collaboration freedom for anybody to throw an idea on the table. And then you've got to defend it. you've got to make a case for it.

And so you can't just throw it out there and go, well, you guys go do that now because I'm so smart I came up with it. Because ideas are a dime a dozen. People who can implement them are the problem. Any one of the profit centers, for instance, Entree leadership, okay? So it's got several components to it. It's got a digital component, Entree Leadership, Elite, which is a digital coaching product for small businesses, right?

So if somebody comes in and says, I got a great idea to add something, a tool to that digital product or whatever, that's usually going to bubble up somewhere. in that entree leadership team from the vice president who's running that Jason or um you know John Falcons our senior coach over there so he's got a lot of coach him and his coaches they're on the front lines they're interfacing with a customer all the time the customer's going to throw needs at them they went okay we need to serve this need how can we do that is that a digital thing is a coaching need how we're going to fill it so fill the need fill the need fill the need from an entrepreneur's perspective but what we do is we give a lot of power to the vice president of that particular business

unit or sub-business unit to bubble things up. And then on top of that, if somebody's in another whole area, they're more than welcome to, you know, pull the pen on a grenade and throw it over in another area and go, hey, guys, I got a great idea over here. I want to blow some stuff up. And so, but again, you've got to defend that and then you've got to defend the resource usage to take it forward, to take it past gleaming idea that I had while I was on the running trail this morning, which you get a new idea every freaking morning if you're doing this. You know, it's just, and 90% of them suck when they actually come in, but when they're on the running trail, they're all great, you know, before they see the light of day in the actual

business climate. So, anyway, I'm convinced that, you know, everything Ramsey has done has been on about 10% of our ideas. 90% of them when they made the light of day sucked. And some of them really sucked bad, but, you know, you don't know that sometimes until you get in there swinging. So all that to say is it's bubbling up. Occasionally we'll have something that doesn't have a home and we have a special projects wind team that is an incubator. It's a shark tank, if you will, for ideas that don't, they can jump in. And so you've got some senior

leaders representing several of the disciplines that sit in there. And special projects works on two things, broke things, you know, an area's got the flu. And it's, you know, we're not meeting budget. We're not hitting our revenue goals. And it's a, you know, it's a good size thing and it's a problem. I sit in that, I sit in that work team. That's one of the things I sit on. It's one of the groups, work groups I sit in. Because I'm entrepreneurial and I love working on broken things. And we'll take a baby thing in there that doesn't have a home, an orphan, and, you know, put it in NICU in there. And let's get this thing, let's get it nourished. Let's see if we can get it moving and see if it can survive. If we can get the thing to where it's past beta and it's

actually the business has actually got some social proof, we'll make it a new profit center. Or we'll drop it into one of the existing ones, even though the idea didn't come from them and go, look, this fits over here the best. So we're going to drop it with you guys. And we'll send a leader when we send it over there. We'll put a new leader on it and then start to staff it out. So when you put a new leader on it, so that was the who does new. That was kind of the heart. So when you put a new leader on, is that you typically pull like a junior, like if you VP is head of a division, you pull somebody who's kind of one of their right hand, they get the opportunity from a career path and perspective that they can run this new thing? Or like, how do you think through

bringing those leaders in? Are you mostly, yeah, I would just love to know. How do you think through that part? Probably 80%, maybe even 90% of the time, it's in-house. And we're constantly working on bench depth around here. And so we've got somebody waiting in the wings. And it might be them that birthed the new idea and brought it into special projects, you know. And so they may have been rocking the baby for a little while. And then they just get to grow it on up, right?

They get to give the orphan a home. And they become the new mama daddy of the thing. So, yeah, that's how I like to do it. Because if the person, if it was born in their heart, They will fight all the enemies internally and externally for the survival of their baby. I mean, and they'll champion the cause, baby. I like champions. You know, they paint their face blue and, you know, ride a horse with a big sword coming through the thing to get everything.

And sometimes you've got to sit them down. I would a lot rather try to take somebody like that and pull them back and polish them a little bit than trying to light wet wood. Light wet wood. That's a great analogy. When you start these new divisions, and I think I want to, the reason I'm hitting on this is because I think it, if you asked 100 entrepreneurs, what's the number one thing that you wish you could do would probably be more new stuff. And so this feels like a very, a very relevant thing to talk about. And I think that happens at all levels because, you know, in the beginning, you're just barely figuring out what's going on. And so you're just trying and seeing what sticks. Later, you have more resources. So, you have more resources. So you think you can do more, but oftentimes you also distract the team. They feel whiplash. And then sometimes the core business starts to falter because everyone's looking at the new shiny toy rather than the main game. We started it with one area and it was tech because tech was exploding 20 years ago. And so, you know, we had the web department, you know, that's what it was called.

It's how lame it was, right? And so these, so these programmers and tech people, are all sitting in a room, but they're getting paid off the P&L of that profit center. So the guy or gal running that profit center wants some freaking accountability. But instead we had them just over here. They were on their own little island. And we had to break that up. And that's when we busted it about.

It was about 20 years ago. We went to this matrix approach. Well, this is a great segue. So with each of these VPs, I would imagine these are, you know, among the most valuable people in the business, right? Because they're fundamentally running a business. unit. Yeah, they got literally a P&L, and they literally get paid off the bottom. Would they get billed for portions of the overhead, the rent for the building in their area, as if they were, you know, a standalone business, so to speak. So we're job costing, if you want to use accounting terms.

And then they get paid off that bottom line. So if they, if their bottom line goes zoom, zoom, their personal income goes zoom, zoom. I want them to be very wealthy because that means they made me a lot of money. and so I love it. And we want everybody in the building doing that. Also, though, we have a high respect for the C-suite. We have a high respect for that senior marketer and the value that they bring,

not just the entrepreneur running the vice president's role. Or, again, a senior VP sitting some of those and even some executives, some of our operating board members, sit in some of those seats. But that's how, you know, it all rolls up under a business unit. And then the C-suite, I imagine, gets kind of compensator from the company overall.

Yeah, because what I've got is our operating board is half C-suite and half business units. And so what we've got to have is we've got to have this, we have to have an accounting system and a budgeting system that serves the business units and notifies the rest of us how the business unit is performing. And so it's not really optional. You've got to do that. And if you're a bootstrapped entrepreneur that came out of sales or marketing, you might not know how to do all that accounting stuff. And so I got to roll some accounting support up under you to make sure that you get to keep doing the stuff you're good at.

But we also actually want to count the beans and make sure there are some. You know, pay taxes. Yeah, stay open. Stay out of jail. All the good stuff. I get this question a lot, so I'm curious your take on it. equity packages, stock shares, anything like that, or is it all pure based on bottom line profit? Is that the kind of the performance compensation component of the leadership that you bring in for either business units or C-suite?

You know, when we first started sharing off the bottom line with people, that's when we had to answer the equity question, was are we going to let someone have stock? Okay. So our endgame, we decided a long time ago, endgame is not going public. end game is perpetual operation generationally. And so it's what Simon said it calls the infinite game. Okay. So we don't have an exit to an IPO planned. We're not doing that.

We've decided distinctly 25 years ago, not doing that. We don't have a sale of any kind to a VC or anything else. We don't have a liquidity moment anywhere on the horizon at all. If you do, it would change what you're doing maybe, okay? Because if you're going to take the thing public and you give some people some equity, that's not a big deal, okay? But if you're running it infinite like that, and about the only thing that we're 100,

about the only person in the building where 100% sure is still going to be here is me. Everybody else could, might someday want to leave or have to leave. And so, and I didn't want that. I wanted everybody to stay forever because I love our people. And I, you know, some of my best friends are my leaders here that, I mean, we do stuff socially with our wives and husbands and everything else. I'd love them. I've got high respect for them as human beings, as their spiritual character, everything. But still, I have over all these years found that sometimes people leave.

And I cry a little. But I cry a lot if they took stock with them. And so we don't have any equity positions at all. And you make. unbelievably good money when you move into leadership and you're paid off the bottom line here, like lights out scary good money. Like nobody does what we do. We're so freaking generous because these are the people that are running the thing.

They're the people that grew this. They deserve to get paid like they're a partner. And so I have zero greed over that. But you don't own anything. I own 100%. Well, I don't own the stock anymore. it's in my kids names, from a state's and planning standpoint. But, and they're, you know, my grown kids, the next gen of grown Ramsey's. So, but, uh, I mean, I've got one percent

to be clear, but the only voting stock. But the, uh, but anyway, no, in order's no equity. There's no equity anywhere except Ramsey's. That's it. Oh, I love that. Um, I'd say Layla and I have a similar perspective on Acquisition.com in that it's kind of our forever business. You know, we plan on just continuing to own it and continuing to operate it. You know, we will enter, we kind of see it as the goose versus the eggs, at least how we think through it, which is probably, like we use a different analogy, but similar, you have 14 profit centers, those are the eggs. And then the goose, it's like, why would we get rid of acquisition dot comets?

It's the mother ship to use your language. So it brings, so that brings up two different points that are probably somewhat related. So one is, is 100% of Ramsey in person? Are anybody, is anyone remote? No, we all work at work. Yeah. So there's no, like, like, you don't have like exceptions where like, you know, like editors or for, for, for social media or, you know,

maybe some of the coaches or something like that could be remote. Everybody moves to, um, to Tennessee. Yes. And the, the, the, with the exception of the occasional temporary thing. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But in terms of the actual structure. And the reason is very.

simple. Our quality of communication, in-person communication quality, goes way up. And so things are actually communicated. We all know this. Anyone that's got walking around since knows that 85% of communication is body language and tone and pique, not words. And so when you are sitting beside someone, you can feel the spirit of what's going on. and you are getting a whole different level of quality of communication. What that does is it increases two things. It increases trust, and it increases productivity. And then those two things increase speed,

because organizations move at the speed of trust. And so when I am not sure, because I'm using a text or even a Zoom, and I'm not really sure what she meant or he meant. I can't really tell if they were being passive aggressive, but if you're sitting with them, you know. Right. If you're sitting with them, you know. And I can just go walk around the building,

and I can feel the air. I can feel it in the air. I've been leading a long time. And I teach my leaders to do this. There's an old book a thousand years ago in search of excellence. It was the good to great book before Good to Great, before Jim Collins did it. It was back in 92.

and, you know, they studied great companies. And one of the things the managers did, they did management by walking around. Just walk the floor of the plant if you're in manufacturing and feel the vibe of the workers, feel the speed, feel the energy in the air. Look for chaos. Look for dirt and filth versus organization. And I walk through, I smell food inside of our building. No, that's not cool. We have a cafeteria.

You don't eat at your desk. leave your salmon somewhere else. Nobody wants to smell that crap, right? And so, you know, they're just little stuff. But you just walk through and you can kind of tell, you know, I walk past people. They're on a coaching call on a Zoom call with somebody. I just pop my head in there, you know, smile, wave and disrupt the whole call and then leave, spread hate and dissension, right?

So that kind of thing creates a cultural level of trust and productivity. I call them drive-by communications. I can just drive, I can walk past, and I read through the weekly reports, and so-and-so's mother's got cancer, and I walk past, just touch them on the shoulder and say, hey, man, I'm praying for your mom. Sorry about that. You know, six, eight-second interaction that does not occur if they're remote. I think you might like this.

I think it was either Uber or Airbnb. Someone can correct me in the comments, but they did a research, study because I think they were trying to prove or at least definitively know whether in person versus remote, you know, which one is better, et cetera. And they found an It Depends answer, which is, and I talk about this because obviously we're in person. We have a big headquarters here in Vegas. That especially, especially for the first third of someone's career. So basically like call it 18 to 35 is where those people get a disproportionate upside for being in person because of all of the unstructured learning that occurs that's not on your quote career path you know like if you're

sitting right next to marketing and you're in sales you know you over here you know what what's going on in terms of the organic stuff you over hear what's going on on on the paid side you start learning a little bit more about funnel you know about landing page and conversion rates and things like that and then all of a sudden when you are on a sales call you know with a business owner or whomever and they bring something of that up you're like oh I actually know something about that because But if you were in an only Zoom environment, you lose out on all of that. And so I'm a big advocate because I obviously have a big percentage of the audience that I have that's in their early 20s beginning their career. I would encourage you all to work in person.

I really mean that. I did read one piece of research that you get more chances at promotion. Oh, yeah. In person than if you're sitting at home and you're only on the call's commensurate to the task assigned to you. And so, you know, we can add to this even further. You've been here. We've got this massive, fabulous cafeteria, restaurant at Ramsey. So, and on top of that, we drop several million dollars a year into that to subsidize the food cost.

So you can eat here for about half of what you can drive down the road and, you know, get a fast food burger or whatever. Why do we do that? because when people eat together, oh, that adds a whole other level. When you break bread with someone else, it changes everything. And so what happens is people that don't work together, end up eating together, and what you're talking about occurs. They learn from each other. They talk about stuff they're working on.

Sometimes they just talk about personal stuff, but then the next time an issue comes up, they trust that person because they've actually developed a bit of a relationship with them. I look over in our tech guys, and we've got a bunch of techies in here, a bunch of programmers and stuff, and they're all over there, huddled around some table playing some weird board game thing that I don't even know how it works, and, you know, that only programmers would play, right? And or some weird card game, Dungeons and Dragons type stuff or whatever.

I don't know. And they're having a blast, and they're playing together and eating together, and that changes the whole vibe of the deal. I will tell you that if you just are only concerned about a task, and that's it, a simple tactical, do this thing, that's fine for remote. But our stuff is always 100% of the time, we want more out of the interaction than the simple task being accomplished. And that's why we've stood firm on this. And we've lost some people to that. They want to go work and have work-life balance, which or whatever they call it.

so that they can work from home. But what that actually means is I'm not planning to work eight hours. Right. Because if you're working eight hours at home, you're not talking and interacting with your family. So I don't know how you added hours to your family unless you're cheating the company. And so I don't understand it. But I'm not mad about it. It's just why we've decided to do it.

But some people jet. And we've lost some good people over that. And so we've had a lot of discussions about it. here, but we're pretty firm on that. There's a couple dovetails that I'll hit on that. So one is you talked earlier about bench depth, and I would imagine that one of the best ways to build the bench depth is having more people cross-functionally learning in person from other leaders at cafeteria, at the water,

break area, and what have you. You also spoke about trust, the speed of the company is based on the speed of trust. And I would, I would, I would, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, a hundred percent agree. And I think that translates into faster decision-making. And so I'm a big, I'm a big believer in the speed of, decisions is the speed of the company, which can only be based on the trust that people have. If you have to double check every single thing, then all of a sudden an approval process that has to get put in place, and then bureaucracy kills everything.

Well, and it interferes with delegation. The essence of delegation is trust. And so when I can let something bubble up from the bottom, it's because I trust the people that the idea is going to get filtered and vetted. We're not going to go drop a million dollars on a bad idea. You know. And so I trust the competency of the people. That's a, that's a form of delegation. And I think you spoke to two things that you spoke to both competence and intention, right? So intention, you know, like, are they good at their job?

And do they, do they mean, mean well, which I think it kind of ladders up to on brand versus off brand? Is this a Ramsey thing to do? Is this the Ramsey way? So if, just because I think everybody loves the good story, what's the most, what's the biggest goof up you've had in 35 years on something that was off-brand? for Ramsey that you were like, man, I can't believe we did that. And what then, what did you do about it afterwards? Because I'm sure every business owner's had a big goof up and been like, shoot, that was bad. You know, I don't know if it was off brand, but I think one of the most expensive things we

ever did was that we got about several millions of dollars into the, building of a debit card. Okay. A Ramsey debit card. It wasn't off brand. It was right on brand. But, but, but what this is one of those things we didn't know what we didn't know, banking regulations and, and so forth.

So we're looking for a click and mortar bank to park the thing in because we're not in the banking business. We're certainly not going to open a bank. Good Lord, no. That would be, there's no way. But, but there's, there's. tremendous revenue potential in the transaction fees. And so we're looking at the Ramsey debit card and it's something that we could promote. We could brand it, had a nice little gazelle on it,

had a nice little R on it, that kind of stuff. And we screwed around that. That thing was born in Special Projects Committee. It was a baby. It was an orphan. And we put it, we brought it. That's an deal. We brought in an outside guy that knew the banking world. And he's still with us today. He works in another area. He was brilliant guy. Really. smart and I never want to lose the guy but we got down into that thing and it uh you know of course it has to survive through the pandemic and and that that slowed everything down shut everything down for a while I had to put it on the shelf get it off the shelf and dust it off okay get it going again get the beta picked back up get the alpha picked up first and get the beta picked up

And I think we're at about 10,000 people in beta. Okay. And the outside fraud bots started hitting the thing. And we thought that the bank had the software to catch all of that. And then we're looking at, okay, we're responsible for these overdrafts that are being created. We have to cover them in our country. and real quickly the thing starts going sideways. And I'm like, man, I'm so many millions into this thing.

I really don't want to kill this thing. But we're looking at the risk and the upside. And we just, we blew it up and we killed it. And I still got one of those little debit cards in my folder. I carry it to remind me of how stupid I was. We weren't stupid, really. We did everything correctly, but what we were ignorant. We did not know what we didn't know about what our exposures were.

and once those exposures became evident, we just had to go, oh, this is way scary. I can't breathe, and we're not doing this. Our losses could be infinite, huh? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm like, yeah, if I write, you know, if we lose the several million we've got in it, that pales in comparison to how bad this could be if we don't stop. So we're going to stop now.

and odd thing, the bank that we were working with later went sideways and was in the news and blew up. And so I think God protected us by letting us X the thing early because we would have gotten the opportunity to exit anyway. Or we would have had to move the whole project to another bank when that bank blew up. But it was a click-and-mortar bank thing. I feel like a lot of people have had that same like, this is such a good idea on paper. Why is this not working the way I wanted to? Exactly. And it was working.

The customer loved it. We would have been able to track, for the customer, track their expenses and give them report and feedback. The data we could have reversed furnished back to the customer was going to be, oh, man, it was going to be beautiful. Oh, yeah. I mean, I see it. I mean, it's compelling. And, you know, and we had written so many of the APIs and so much of the tie-ins, you know, to get all that stuff. We're running it on every dollar in the beta.

But, yeah, it got, it got hairy. Let me pivot from something, from the super tactical of that to zooming all the way out. So a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, you know, you start to build a lot of wealth. And then there's also the biggest percentage of your wealth sits inside of the enterprise that you run. Right. And so how do you think about family office, like, you know, you start getting this money, right, that comes into the business, or comes out of the business, excuse me. do you have any kind of mental framework that you work through in terms of percentage reallocation to new, you know, new investments within the overarching structure? And where this gets more tactical for me to you is Lail and I have run almost everything inside of Acquisition.com.

And that means like we own buildings, we own apartment complexes, all that stuff. It still sits in Acquisition.com. Obviously, there's entity structures and things like that. but in terms of the team that helps run it because, you know, AgriZN.com primarily is an investment, you know, it started as a family office, but it just, it spun up these other profit centers to use your language over time. And so I'm curious, have you, do you completely separate church and state to use that language in terms of, you know, Ramsey personal versus, yeah, can you just walk me through how you think through that?

No, we have done all other. investing outside of Ramsey solutions and in separate legal entities as well for risk management purposes. That's simple. And also for estate planning purposes. So, for instance, the campus that you were on is probably a $600 million asset roughly, something like that. Maybe you own in cash. Yeah, yeah. I just wanted the audience to, I just wanted the audience to know. Sorry. So when we, when when we bought the dirt to start laying the first bricks on the first thing on it, that was a $10 million purchase. And it's the largest purchase I'd ever done in my life when I bought the dirt.

And I was freaking out. And I'm like, now I've got to build something too. You know, now that I bought the largest thing, now I've got to do something even bigger. And it's like, we're going to cash. So we cash flow everything, as you said. But we immediately drop that into the children's trust so that I'm not the owner. and so you avoid any you don't avoid capital gains on the, I'm sorry, estate tax on the basis of what you put in there, but you do on all the growth. And so while we've owned this property, it's doubled in value.

And so there's hundreds of millions of dollars that have now avoided estate tax by that being over there. Plus, if someone wants to sue Ramsey, which apparently is a hobby for some people, and then they, you know, that's not on the plate because Ramsey does not own the campus. Ramsey is a, Ramsey Solutions is a tenant of the children's trust. And then, you know, same thing if we own a bunch of other real estate because I love real estate like you do. And I just buy that and drop it into an LLC. And if it's anything over 10 million, I'd drop it into a single standalone LLC so that all risk associated with that property is contained within that property. and from a litigation standpoint or maybe anything else.

And also then that gives us some other estate planning things we can do with, because partial interest LLCs can be with one of the kids can be, or a kid entity, a trust can be greatly reduced in appraisal value. And you can slip more and more of that into the estate plan and not have tax. on it. So we've been doing a bunch of that for 20 years and playing with all that stuff. And so the reason was estate taxes and risk management is the only reason it's there. Philosophically, it's all in one lump. Well, that's exactly. And that really teases to the heart of it. Because for sure,

the entity structure from a risk protection perspective, then, you know, from a succession planning and avoiding estate taxes later, that 100% makes sense. I was curious about the actual team. So like would the same legal team that does Ramsey stuff do some of these other deals? I ask because this is me selfishly asking because my my you know, my estate attorneys, you know, who manage all of that stuff. And I have our M&A attorneys that handle a lot of our deal flow. A lot of times we share, I share the same resources, same same people for things that are quote, personal versus acquisition.com. And I, I was curious if you had any, like, basically, if you had a mistake from that that I don't know about, I would love to know.

No, I have used, I've done both. So all accounting for the whole thing is in-house. Ramsey accounting team does it. Okay. Taxes have been outsourced forever anyway. Estate planning has been outsourced forever. Nuanced litigation has been outsourced forever. But a little thing, if I need somebody to look over a lease or verify that we wrote the LOI up, if we're doing a, I bought a piece of property this week.

And, you know, or I've got it on LOI. I don't have a contracted. So, you know, well, my real estate team, which does not work for Ramsey, walk down the hall. They do sit here, but they don't work technically for Ramsey. Okay. So they walk down the hall and run it past the general counsel, somebody at the general counsel on the legal team? Probably, yeah. But minor stuff, but pretty quickly if anything gets, like if we're rezoning a piece of property, my legal team here doesn't know I do that.

I've got, that's going to be an outsource guy. I'm going to bring in a zoning attorney that knows what the flip they're doing and knows everybody at the county that can walk it through because my guys would be stumbling around not knowing what they're doing down there. General counsel would be. Man, that was super helpful. For those of you who are, you know, further along the path, like some of this stuff that we're talking about with asset protection and entity structure, although, So it's something that you don't, I didn't, I wasn't like, I don't wake up every day and be like, man, I can't wait to learn about asset protection. But it's, you know. I did not anticipate when I was 64 years old that I would own zero.

I don't even own my cars. I don't own anything. Everything is in an LLC and my wife holds the LLCs. I actually am a very poor individual. You know, we built this, again, we referred to it several times, but we love our campus and I'm proud. of this property. We've done a good job with it. But when we're sitting on the interstate, two six-story buildings with big huge Ramsey solution signs on them. And I thought, because I'm a real estate guy, I thought, okay, traffic count, that's branding. You know,

people going up the interstate, they see Ramsey, and they stop in and watch the show here because it's on the glass, and it's all this customer interaction. And it was like, you know, the stuff we're teaching is working for us. So it's proof text for the customer, right? And And so it's branding and it's all positive, positive, positive. I had no idea that when you did something like build this building and put it on the interstate that you basically should have put right under the sign the words, sue me. Or bulls, yeah, nice bullseye, right? Bullseye, a little bullseye, yeah.

Because I think people, some people got from that that this is now a target-rich environment. And then we've had to spend some money convincing them otherwise because I don't do well with this kind of stuff, I really don't negotiate. I'm going to pound you into dirt. And I've got some of them that are six and seven years now that I've been, that I've been sitting in court. And I'm not going to quit. I'm going to destroy them because I cannot stand the thievery that that represents. I can't stand a thief. I love this so much. I could talk probably another hour on this, but I would have pivot for the sake of the audience. Can you walk me through the six stages of scaling that you talk about in your book? Well, we came up with what we're looking for because the

best-selling book we've ever done and probably the most known thing in the entire Ramsey brand has been the baby steps. And that was the total money makeover book, 12 million copies now. And what we discovered from that teaching people the seven baby steps, this is what you do if you want to go from broke to wealthy, is when people have a clear path, it gives them hope. And they don't have paralysis of the analysis and they don't have uh if you have a clear map to get to florida your anxiety goes down if you're on the way to florida you know and uh if you need a clear path and so uh i didn't have a clear path running a business and so i'm kind of making it up as i go and i got a lot of bumps and scars and bruises and i went slower than i should have because

i didn't know didn't know what the next step was so as we've coached ourselves now through 30 plus years and about 10,000 small businesses, we're observing that businesses go through five stages. It starts with a treadmill stage. When you're by yourself, you're a solopreneur. All revenue is based on you. All production is based on you. You don't even really own a business.

You just own your job because if you don't work, nothing happens. And so you come home from work and you flop down on the couch. I would when I was at that stage. And Sharon say, what did you do today? I don't know, but I did a lot of it and I'm exhausted. And so you just run, run, run. run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run. And if it's to be, it's up to me is not a motto, but it is the motto.

And so, man, you get her done. And that is fun. It's invigorating. It's a fun time. You're still, you still believe this business thing is going to be easy because you're naive at that stage. But it's not sustainable. You don't meet 10-year treadmill operators because you run out of breath. It's too hard if you just own your own job.

They end up closing going to work for somebody or they end up growing the business. So what do you do to grow? Well, each of these stages, we figured out there's some things you do to level up. On that one, it's pretty simple. Time management. You got to do what our friend Burger and Emyth says, and that is to work on the business, not just in the business. So you've got to allocate blocks of time.

You've got to start blocking time and say, I've got to start thinking about something other than freaking Friday. And the second thing is I've got to learn how to hire people and I've got to bring all my first folks and I can delegate to them so that someone is creating production and someone is creating revenue both that is not just me.

So that if I'm hurt or I'm on vacation or one of my kids is sick and I need to tend to them, the whole thing doesn't stop. And when you do that, you level up, you know, get your first hire, you start a little bit of baby delegate. here and you get some good time management you go to the trailblazer stage trailblazer is just chaotic it's crazy I mean you're trying to herd cats you got 10 15

people and they're running in 16 directions nobody knows what nobody's doing but we're doing a whole lot of it and it's communication is is really fun and there's a lot of passion and a lot of zeal it's a good stage I love the trailblazer stage but again it's a very very very It's so frenetic that eventually you start to go, I really want to get a little bit more sophisticated than this, because this is killing me. And so how do you do that? Well, you start actually doing some planning, which is a whole new idea for the tactical person like me. Because when in doubt, I bust something in the nose, right? When in doubt, I'm going to run into the wall.

Let's go do something. If I run into it enough times, it'll fall over. And I just start, you know, I've got to stop being so tactical. I've got to start thinking about long term. I've got to start really developing my first layer of leadership. ship inside my team. That takes you up to the Pathfinder stage, or that's Pathfinder, up to Trailblazer stage. Trailblazer stage is the middle stage of the five. I skipped one.

And Trailblazer stage is the middle stage of the five. This is where you actually, where I first started hearing about strategic thought. I'm so straight commission sales guy mentality, tactical guy, that when someone said we need strategic thought, that sounded like corporate America and I went, no, you should just thought to go get your work done. And so, but then I started hiring some guys and gals that had MBAs and they started, I think 100% of the MBA programs teach strategic thought as a primary thing. And so they start teaching me the value of strategic thought. They're like, look, you don't have to run into the wall. If you turn right and then turn left,

you go around the wall. It's a lot less energy. You burn less calories. I'm like, how'd you know that? Well, I got above it. I had a 30,000 foot view. I wasn't just looking at the day to day, the moment to moment. Thank God it's Friday. Oh, God, it's Monday. And so we blow past that, and we start actually doing strategic thoughts. So my MBAs that I hired and other people taught me strategic thought. I didn't know it. And I always laugh and say, I taught them how to work. So, but, you know, so we did that. And then you moved to Pathfinder is the fifth. And that's where it's really sweet. Man, you're bailing money now. Everything, you've got your systems in place, the process is in place. Planning is in place. What revenue level would you say this is around?

I'm sorry? What revenue levels would you say? Like treadmill is like zero to a million? You know, we tried to attribute it to that, and we could do that with our journey, but we really couldn't, it changes from industry to industry. So if I'm dealing with a guy that's got one heating and air truck and he's fixing, he's doing HVAC, you know, when he gets the 20 trucks and 70 employees, is he there? No, he could still be, he wouldn't be treadmill, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's,

Pathfinder versus Trailblazer, right? Because he could still be doing some of the dumb stuff, three layers below what it looks like he should be doing. And that was me. That's what I did. The last stage is what we spent a lot of our time on, which is where we are today, and that's the legacy stage,

where you talk a lot about succession, what's your end game, how you're going to hand off, and you've got a bench depth. It's the ultimate bench depth is how you're going to replace yourself and move to the family. office mentality, as you said, and those kinds of things. So we walk you through those five stages, show you a clear path, and then there's six drivers that drive those. I won't cover them all right now. But, you know, it starts with personal growth. I am the problem and I'm the solution. I'm the

thing holding the business back at every stage. And so I've got to get better at every stage, right? And purpose and people, the quality of your hires, the quality of your culture, the quality of the connectivity in the culture with the core values, all those things evolve as you go through the stages and profit planning. And then you just cycle back through those six drivers. We think we've been through the six drivers at Ramsey probably somewhere 10 to 15 times while we went through the five stages because they change as you, you know, it's like you read a great book and then four years later you read it again and you're a different person

and so you see different things. And so your change as you go through. But that clear path between the six drivers working to get through the five stages has set a bunch of our folks, our clients, our customers, free. So we decided to put it into a book. And that's what building a business your love is. Well, Dave, I think we're close to time. But I wanted to personally say thank you for the impact that I think you've made on millions of lives.

I'm sure you hear it every day. But I just, I want to say thank you. you because I think sometimes when you're when you're at the top you don't you don't hear it as much and so um I think it's it's it's real good stuff uh well thank you brother no for real um and uh I think your heart is clear I think people see what your intention behind it is I mean the man owns a 600 million dollar campus in cash he doesn't need your money um it's nice right But he doesn't need it. And I think it's really cool what you've done.

I would love to talk for another hour on even like going from personal finance to, you know, the entrepreneurship brand. But I know our time is limited. So anyways, I want to say thank you again for coming on the game. And I'm sure my audience will definitely have a couple moments of PTSD hearing some of the stories went over. And maybe hopefully avoid future PTSD by taking a right and then the last. Very cool. Well, thank you for having me. Let's do it again. Yeah, awesome. Thank you. Hey, if you enjoyed this conversation, there's actually a second long-form conversation I've had with Dave. I had one, I think two years ago. It's one of the top videos on the channel

that people seem to love. And so if you like this, you'll love that.