The Game with Alex Hormozi - Take The High Leverage Opportunities | Ep 815

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Want to scale your business? Click here.Welcome to The Game w/ Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned and will learn on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth.Follow Alex Hormozi’s Socials:LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Acquisition

Infinite banking, insurance, you have 29 agents, and you're needing to decide whether you need to be the face and get customers to feed your agents, or you should go all in on getting more agents and teaching them how to do lead gen. Yes. Cool. Yeah. So do the second one. Do the second. Yeah. Yeah.

It's significantly higher leverage. Cool. basically, so think about this is what problem do you want to solve? So either you say, I want to become a, like, you want to keep growing your brand top of funnel so that you just have more and more people are interested in infant banking, and then you have all these agents that you pass it off to so that they can, you know, basically transact and own the relationship. So that's like option one. That is, I would say, the lower risk path because you're already doing that today. And so how many, how many, is it on Instagram that you do your stuff? Yeah, all on meta and YouTube.

Okay. And we're getting... What's your followership from that? 15,000 subscribers on YouTube and 12,000 followers on Instagram and 6,000 on Facebook. Yeah, and what percentage of the leads come from that stuff versus whatever you do in person? 15% come from online. Okay, where's the rest come from? The rest of it comes from referrals and networking and...

Dude, get agents. I don't even know what we're talking about. For sure, get agents. Go get agents. I thought it was like you're 60, 70% of the business was coming from, from your organic. No, most of it's coming from that. And then the challenge with the agents, originally it was all of me teaching people to do that. How to go go out there and get business, go network, go join B&I, Chamber of Commerce, whatever. That's what works for me. And then we

would get good people that were like, hey, I don't have any network. So I said, all right, and they asked where leads were. And I said, all right, so let me go create leads. And we started calling business owners because that's who I was selling to. But they were not showing up and they weren't really busy. Whatever we were offering wasn't whatever. Then I reread $100 million offers and $100 million leads. And I looked at the value equation. I said the best value I can give is to real estate investors. So let me go get real estate investor leads. And then we're calling them all day long. And the people that I'm hiring don't know how to communicate with them properly. So they end up just setting appointments and then they hand them back off to me. And they're good. But I think

it comes down to recruiting people want leads. The first go where to get your leads? If you say you have to go generate your leads, they might go look at somewhere where they give them leads. So we started giving people leads, so we make an offer to recruits. That's good. Well, I think that one is you could probably just take

the existing brand that you have and just be more deliberate about the call to actions that you make. Because if you talk about high-level insurance stuff, that's going to attract both people who want to learn more about insurance, but many of those people will be agents. Yes. And so I think if you basically alternate the CTAs,

you'll be able to basically, I don't want to say chase you both, but in some ways you kind of can double dip here because as long as the content strategy fundamentally doesn't really change or just changing really the call to action, then you can kind of get a little bit of the best of both. But I do think that the big thing that you need to crack

is teaching them to generate their own rates. Like that is the limiter of your business. So you need to bring them on and you need to have the training system to reliably get them to self-generate. Like, that's it. Like, that's what you have to do. If you do that, the sky's the limit.

And the 20 people that we have at a 29 that are just simply coming in and cold calling real estate investors all day right now that are setting up an insane amount. I think our offer is not great, so I'm going to join board with that. But all those people, now I've got to go teach them and just teaching them how to cold call.

Well, they already are cold calling, right? Huh? They already are cold calling now. Well, they're coming in, I'm teaching them a cold call rather than coming in teaching them to go shake hands and kiss babies. You want to teach them the highest efficiency strategy for getting customers. So whatever that is,

so whatever your method is that you think the highest percentage people will succeed with, that's what you teach. Cool. So whether it's shake hands, kiss babies, or it's cold calling, whatever. Or a combo of both. Yeah, or a combo of both. Either way is fine. Cool.

But fundamentally, like, look at the biggest insurance companies in the entire world. They are that big for a reason. And almost all of them, they just, they are recruiting machines. Right. Like that's where fundamentally, because they're not a supply-constrained business. Like, you can sell as much as insurance as you want. Right. Like, you're not supply constraint.

Yes. Right? Like, you're just demand constraint. And so you just got to get guys and then put the system in place so that they learn how to sell. And then that's the business. Heard. Heard. Thank you.

Appreciate you. Yeah. Hey, Alex. My name is Henry. I sell education. I teach people how to fix and flip, mainly the Hispanic market. So it's only in Spanish. We did 1.3 mil last year, second year in business.

and we want to do 3 million this year. So with the more, better, new, right? Right now, we only do two events a year, big events, 600 people, and we upsell to a high ticket, 12,000, right? And we convert 20% of the room, more or less. So that 80% that went to that room never sees me again, I never sell them anything again. And, well, that 20%, they bought my high ticket,

that mentorship is a year. And after that, I don't solve them anything ever again. So more or better, do I just do more of these events and like never-ending, looking for new customers for the rest of my life? Or should I focus? No, you're good. You're in education. Yeah. And education graduates people.

Yeah. That's how education works. So if you look at the education system of Raw, the way to create continuity in education is just always have something else to learn or to teach. Right. like first year, now you're an undergrad, now you're a graduate student, now you have a master's. Then there's a PhD, and you get a second PhD. You just keep, you know, people just become endless students. And so, do you want to sell the business eventually or do you just want to make money?

Make money. I mean, we're not. No, that's fine. No, I prefer the truth. Yeah, I mean, the easiest thing to do is just double the amount of things you're doing. Either just do, you can either go one a quarter or you can do two at 1,200. And would you travel or just stay in where I'm at in Miami? Is that where you run them now?

In Miami? Yeah, I would do East Coast, West Coast. Yeah, maybe Texas or something. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you have a really simple solution. Like, just run the same playbook more times. If you were like, I want to build a more valuable business,

then I would say, take the year to figure out revenue retention, which is how do I get these people who pay me $12,000 to pay me another $12,000 or pay me $30,000 next year? Or even downsell them to something that's $5,000 a year, but they stay. Right. And focus on retaining that top tier that paid me. that high ticket. Yeah, but I think considering for the model that you have, downselling the upsell,

I actually like a lot. So if they paid you 12, maybe they'll stay for three or three to five, just to have access to the network and some of your vendors and the stuff that you kind of like provide. And I think that's something that people would be far more likely to stick with. And so then you can basically think about your business as, from a zooming all the way out perspective, is that the $12,000 is actually like an offset CAQ, which is like, like, a offset CAC, which is like, You could break even on the $12,000 if you know that someone gets into a $3,000 year membership that's pretty much all margin. That doesn't leave.

So it's like that allows you to spend way more than your competition because they need to make money on the 12. You can break even on the 12. And then you just have this stack of $3,000 bills that just keep stacking up. That's like low, low effort to maintain. Got it. That makes sense? Yeah, it's good. But yeah.

The nice thing is that you're honest about just wanting to make more money. It makes this a lot easier. Yeah. Yeah. Don't say I want to make an impact. I'm James. I sell custom branch railings to homeowners. We did 420 or so last year.

I've read 10x is greater than 2x. And so last night it was coming to me again, like, do I really just want to double or do I want to try to 10x? And so what I want to try to do is to develop a network of product specifiers, architects, designers, contractors that can act kind of like a referral network. I want to shift away from the minnows and to focus more on whales. We had one client last year, about $50,000 worth of handrails. And if I could get 10 of those in a year, then I would double revenue just with 10 clients.

So kind of what are my best strategies to go about achieving that? So where did you source the single whale this year? He found me. It's all inbound. It's all through search. Okay. So SEO or PBC? SEO.

Okay. I just started Facebook ads about three or four weeks ago. They're going pretty good, qualified about half of the leads so far. So I would, so if you want to go whale hunting, then I think you're, you're, you're, initial thought strategy of finding the architectural firms and engineering firms and whatnot is a good one. I would probably try the outreach method as my primary way, because you can be hyper-targeted in terms of who you're reaching out to.

And the key to making it work, though, is like what's in it for them to refer you business? Are you asking me that? That's an excellent question. Okay. So architects will typically, in a plan, like if they make a set of plans, they'll specify what kind of tiles to use and what kind of windows to use, et cetera. So we've gotten plans in the past where it's like it's got the pictures from the website with the CAD drawings and everything on the plans.

And so it's like how to persuade them to do that kind of in absentia. And I should also note that we ship nationwide. So this is not like, you know, a hyper local market. Are you shipping or are you doing installs or now? No, we haven't done an... Are you just, you just actually... We just ship product. Interesting.

Got it. then who are the decision makers? Well, right now it's been primarily residential is what it sounds like. Right, it's primarily homeowners. We've done some commercial work, you know, but it's primarily homeowners who are, you know, looking for something different.

And so it's very what I call intentional inbound search. It's like they're looking for something. They are deliberately searching it out. They find it, you know, we have a lead magnet, kind of, which is like 250, decorative ideas. It's SEO. It's SEO. And I, you know, yeah. Well, this is a fundamental change in business strategy.

So you're aware of that. So with that comes risk. Because like if the, obviously the lowest or the highest risk adjust to return move or lowest risk I guess is to probably add in, like if I were like tomorrow what would I do, I'd probably just add PPC in right now because you already have something that's working on SEO. I would probably see how can I get way more articles written so that my SEO traffic can go up, can I tackle more, you know, more keywords?

That's like the for sure will work and make you more money play. The going after whales for sure can make more money because why not add zeros to things. It'll just be a completely different sale and you'll have two levels of sales. So sale number one is going to be for the affiliates and then figuring out what's going to make it worth it for them. And then the second level is what's the actual sale to the whale customer. So who's the decision maker with the whales? Like the final decision maker? It's going to be the homeowner, whoever's doing the project.

So you just want bigger homeowners? The architects have the ability to specify it and to put it in front of the client. So like we also did another one, which was about $60,000 for a guy that was doing a development of Airbnb's in Virginia. He put up like six yurt kind of things. And, you know, so I had two very big. So both of them were architects that sent you these. The one was an architect and the other was a construction company. Okay, yeah.

So you're going to have to go B2B outreach is the prime. Basically when you look at Core 4, that's going to be what you're going to do. and then they're going to be your affiliates. And so the million dollar question is, what's in it for them? So my proposition would be, so there's three ways you can do affiliates, at least in the world of Alex. So you have they sell your shit for you, and they get a commission. That's option one.

That's typically my least favorite option, but it is an option. Option two is that you give them some morsel of something that you sell, that they can sell for 100% markup, they can keep all the money, but you get the introduction. This is my favorite way of doing it. The third way is that you basically allow them to just bundle in your free thing

with their services. Now with architecture firms, it's not like they're going to bundle in a railing for their service, but just for everybody else. Those are the three things. So it's like they bundle your lead magnet in for free with their thing they sell, so it enhances the value of their overall package.

you give them the things so they can upsell your lead magnet for an amount of money that they can keep 100% of or they just sell your stuff and they get a kickback. Is there a version for this where they can just upcharge? Like you can do a small portion of this that they get 100% of?

100%? Like I don't think so. Like maybe some kind of contractors or architect discount? We wanted them to be stupid to say no. Yeah, because like the generic leg you get 20% kickback is just like everyone does it. Like who here does 20% kickbacks for anybody who refers you business.

You can raise your hand. I'm not going to be upset. Okay. And so the point is that, and you probably know in here has referred to anyone else's business, because no one cares. That's kind of the point.

And so it has to be an irresistible offer. And so if we give away the lead magnet or something, think about it as like, my KAC for a $50,000 customer is the cost of the lead magnet. And if I close one out of three introductions, then it's 3x the cost of lead magnet

is my cost to acquire customer, which is usually pretty dumb. darn good. But it sounds like a irresistible offer to the architecture firm because they're like, we can just sell this and keep 100%? You're like, yep, just make the introduction and I'll deliver that. And then when you talk to the customer, you're like, yeah, I'll deliver that. Here's one rail, but you need 10 more. And then you make the sale. Does that make sense? I'm not entirely sure. Like people would order the entire project. So it's not like you can just, like I can't just ship you a sample and be like, hey, look, here's a. Yeah, then you're

going to have to do the commission-based structure, which is not my favorite. But that's probably the way you're going to have to do it. So either you can do the discount. I mean, I would say, guys, I have 20% that I can play with here. So you can take all 20 and give them no discount. You can take a 10% discount and then you get 10% kickback. Like this is what I got. I'll make it work whatever you want,

but this is my bare bottom price. And I think that's what, like that's the outbound strategy. So should I then in turn raise prices for direct to consumer? Yeah, I love that. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Love that.

for you. Hey Alex. Hello. Thank you for the content you create. My name is Mahal Fatal. I'm the founder of Elfane. Of what? I'm the founder of Elfant.

Elfand? Yeah. So basically we sell tools to creators to make more money. And we also simplify how brands collaborate with creators. Okay. You see tools like software? So software and service agency tools. So we have a music label, a creator agency for big creators, and then a platform as well.

Okay. So I'm coming to that just in a bit. I know the focus topic. We made around 4.3 million last year. And basically, my goal is try to get to 100 million. All right. Now the issue here is... What's the split between the three in terms of revenue?

One million for the creator agency. Okay. 1.3 million for the music label. And then the rest is on the brand side. And the brand side is you basically being an agent to do partner deals. Exactly, connecting it both. But basically what I've been doing is that I realize the disruption of AI that's kind of coming in. Okay.

We also saw the scalability of what we were doing, because I've been in the YouTube space for a while. So a lot of these services aren't going to be scaling as much. So in the past two years, I've been taking that profit and putting it into a tech platform. Basically, it's like a creator store where you can sell your services, digital products, but also items that you love. So the skincare that you use, the hair cream, the shoes,

and you learn a commission. And we use all of that data to make it easier for brands to know what creators to work with. Because right now in influencer marketing, it's like a spray method, right? I'm going to pay. idea how much conversion they're going to actually get me but our integration shows you for a thousand clicks they get you these number of visitors and then

they end up buying my challenge here right now is that I'm trying to scale that business but my business model is we make money when you make money so on the brand side we get a 15% commission or margin on all the spend and on the creator side we get around 8% from whatever they make with their fans by selling these digital products and courses or affiliate links okay my issue here is I got 40,000 creators but only a thousand are making money. And I've been kind of struggling between going on a SaaS model to be able to scale

because when I do any social marketing, we get a creator that comes on board, but they don't make money right away. So it's not like you, you know, and the longer it takes you to recoup your ad spend is not usually a good metric for scalability. So I'm kind of pivoting. Should I go into a SaaS model where whatever I make from the creator, I'll just be like, hey, like just pay me that price and I take 0% from you. And then I just charge the brands, the commission to collaborate with the business.

those creators. This way I can scale the business in a much faster. Say the last part again? So instead of me making percentages from creators, I provide them the same tools that a lot of them make money and I keep zero percent. Okay. But then let's say they have to pay like 20 bucks a month. Sure. But then I still make my money on the upside, on the brand side by connecting them with these creators. Okay. So switch to a subscription. Switch to a subscription, yeah. Okay. Because right now, I have 40,000 creators who signed up, but I'm really making money off a thousand. Right, and it's free to sign up,

and you only get paid if they get paid. Yeah. So you're in a pro-sumer audience. So if you look at like Shopify, for example, it's super, it's, if you look at the amount of people who've tried to build marketplaces, almost all of them fail. And it's my opinion that the best marketplaces do run as SaaS,

and then once they get to scale, they can kind of push more marketplace So like Shopify, for example, like it's $29 a month or whatever it is because they know that the vast majority, like they make more money charging $29 a month than getting 4% on zero for the vast majority of stores.

But people continue to pay for the hope that someday they will make money. And so I think the idea of switching to SaaS is not a bad one. I am concerned about the four businesses that you have. So because in order to win at SaaS, you have to be like, all in on software.

And so the alternative to that would be instead of letting creators come on for free, you would charge them to come on, which you could do. It has like a one-time setup fee and then maybe increase the likelihood that they win. Either path would work. But if the ultimate goal is that you want to build a network of creators,

then you want to have the lowest barrier possible on the creator side. So I'm still thinking of a free tier and a paid tier with some minor benefits, but then if you really want to make money, you got to end up paying a subscription. Exactly. Yeah, you'll have to play with the feature set because that's always a bitch.

Just the path of least resistance to getting to 100 mil. Yeah, so I think adding the subscription for the base and then still maintaining the revenue that you get from the sponsors make sense, I would maybe push back slightly on the hypothesis that they can't convert anything because it dramatically decreases the value.

of the network from the sponsor side. What do you mean by it? Because some people will pay for impressions. Yeah. And so those guys can for sure deliver those. And so maybe there's like two tiers that you can sell, you have another product on the ad side, or the media side.

It's just something to consider. Perfect. Thank you. You just validated my thoughts. Oh, good. I'm glad. I'm thinking the right way. No, I think it makes sense.

Yeah. Either have to, basically, you have to position as higher ticket and do premium of wake level onboarding and then select only for the really good creators. And that would be like you charge five. or $10,000 and you really get them set up or you basically flip the other way go freemium and then it's all based on like basically media arbitrage where you're just running tons and tons of ads to get people under the platform and you just

know what your average revenue per platform user is perfect thank you hi Alex my name is Alex you can call me Alex Rodriguez and from Puerto Rico see from Puerto Rico so I'm a music attorney abogado correct in the music and the entertainment yeah so what we do is is we have my constraint is focus okay I have so at least you said it yeah so we have three business offer yeah so basically it's three businesses yeah but today thanks to Ed and Sammy we got one much much more clear on what we should do but I would like to know how would you think about this because the the law firm

side it's growing 20% year over year without me actually doing anything just redirecting people that comes to me to my law firm and right now it's about a hundred K and then we have the educational side and that is making 200k and it's been stuck like that in the last two years sure and we're building customers from organic yeah both are organic okay so if you don't have money to pay us as a lawyer you go to the educational platform and we are developing a contract automation software for big companies like major labels or publishing companies.

So right now, the product, our software, our goal with the software is to sell. We are seeing that other, that big music companies are buying tech. So specific for them. So they're doing everything manually. We want to sell that, but we have a cash flow problem because we're selling to, you know, people without a lot of money and the service size does make money. So our problem is. Where should we focus.

Yeah. But what's monthly churn right now? On the, it's, on the software. We got 100 people and we only have 40 active right now. And how long have you been doing it in the first year? So you've retained 40%. Are they actually active, though? So they're paying.

The people that are active are paying $3,000 per year. And there are only like four. Four? Four that are paying $3,000. And then what are the other $36 paying? I're paying $600 per year. Okay, got it. Okay, so I think we chat about this last night.

So you have a, there is no right answer, but there is a path that you have to pick. And so either you're going to be an enterprise company and you're going to build only for that. And I would say like you probably will just transact on the education side in order to fund this. I in general don't like this plan, but you could do this because you'll be split attention.

And this is fundamentally why people raise money in software so they can just focus on one customer the whole time, build the product and then actually get it to work. Okay, that's that. Because you said that you're retaining 40% in basically a prosumer-ish market, which is where you're at, I would be inclined to say that you probably are pretty close to a decent product.

So you probably have nailed something there. Because keeping 40% of people one year later on, you know, whatever it is for musicians that you guys have for contracts and whatnot. You could absolutely go all in on that and get that to like 50 or 60% and then you just need to have a different acquisition system. So you probably just need to go spend money acquiring customers.

And that already cash flows because of the education side. And are the people who are still paying you on the software also education or no? They usually come from the education or from my legal services as well. So I have some clients that be 80% of the job I'm automated. The million dollar question is if they stop the education,

do they keep paying for the software? Yes, because it's a one-time fee. Well, then that's, what, you mean the software's one-time thing? No, the education. Oh, well, then, okay. So, sometimes they just pay and they're gonna use the software. As long as they, so the only thing that we're solving for is revenue retention on the software.

And so like enterprise in and of itself is not more valuable than lower market. It's just that tends to be stickier, which is what makes it more valuable. But if you can get a larger marketplace, easier to acquire customer to stick as well as a large enterprise customer, you've got a gold mine.

if that's true. And so if you want to go spend money, acquire customers with the education or media as your liquidation, and then get 100%, but the goal that you guys should have is like, we don't care at all about the education, all of your focus, all the profit goes into,

just fixing one number, which is that you need to look at M12, so month 12 retention, and just say like, okay, we're at 40, how do we get to 60? And then how do we get to 70? And that's all you're solving for. Because if you solve that,

then the thing will just keep growing. And that's the beauty, I mean, that's fundamentally the beauty of software once you get it right, is that it just keeps growing. Thank you. Yeah. My name is Mike Nathan.

I sell cellular therapy in home to the old, affluent, injured probably, and athletic. We're new, but we've got a million dollars in revenue, half at EBITA. We would like to get the 25 million. In home? In home. Okay, got it? So we consider mobile health care. Okay, is it like Guy drives out or is it you sending machines?

RN drives out, gives you an IV infusion in your? IV infusion in your home. Okay, got it. We'd like to get to $25 million. We're built to be bought. We want to exit, so we think we're on the cutting edge of this. What's stopping us is my team is awesome. Great, from the NFL to a lot of great way.

We have great business to doctor B to B sales experience. Zero B to C experience. And that playbook we're learning is wildly different. We have no idea what we're doing. Yeah. So what stops you from just doing way more of the doctor stuff? stuff. It doesn't quite pay as well, meaning we have people that knock on doors to orthopedic surgeons who are looking for patients with alternatives to surgery, PT, chiropractors.

It's a lot of effort. And there's some that are going to refer to you and some that just will not. So that's our constraint in a one market. We're in the Twin Cities. It's a one market play. We know there are more people looking for this solution. So we want to understand what the B to C is. If we go to then Dallas, Philly, LA as we try to scale it, we're convinced it needs to be a better ROI than maybe what we're doing right now. What do you do? So you're making 50% margins, right?

So what's the cost to acquire a physician? Cost to acquire a physician. Mm-hmm, who refers to your business? Cost of acquiring affiliate. It's oftentimes, it can be a physician, so we don't track it that way, but it's $500. Okay, so it costs you $500. 500 and then what does the average physician refer to you in a year? $6,000.

Okay. So I mean you're getting 12 to 1 there and you already know how that works. So like what stops you from doing 10 times more of that? You're saying they don't pay well, but that's the part I'm not sure. I don't understand because you're getting 50% margin. We've run through the woods and hit all the people that are going to refer us. The number is not amazing or at least I just know there's more there. I assume there's more.

There's got to be more than, you know, the 200 people we've hit in the, Like you mean you've only really talked to 200 in terms of like reachouts and and or you're 200 who signed up as affiliates kind of thing. I don't know the number off the top of my head but it's in it's in the hundreds less than a thousand of B2B PT chiropractors orthopedic surgeons we've done that in the Twin Cities and the super small people that have given us has been some give four five to six some give zero. Yeah do you have an active affiliate manager who's like regularly reminding them? Yeah so with so the.

The way that I think about affiliates is it's basically a second tier of customer. And so you need to have somebody who's regularly stoking the affiliate fire to keep them activated and continue to get them to continue to refer business. So I'll give you an example. So there was a roofing company, for example, it was a restoration company. They had one star star salesman and all he did was he'd go around to other tradesmen and get them to refer them business. And so they would get a thousand bucks to refer the restoration business business.

The sales guy got 500 for every time they referred. And so that guy all day long was knocking on doors, walking in the front door with donuts, asking them how they're doing, bringing coffee to the guys, and then reminding them that they existed. And that's all he did. And so I think you're getting,

you're doing the hardest part, which is getting them to refer, you just didn't have the consistent referrals. Because if you had 200 active affiliates who were consistently referring your business, and most of these physicians, you know, especially like GPs, things like that. Like, I mean, they see thousands of patients.

And many of them could probably benefit from the services you have. And so the activation is both getting them to refer consistently, but also a percentage of customers that they see that they refer to you. So it's kind of both sides of it. And so I think that the missing link with what you were already doing was just that the,

you didn't have basically the continuous affiliate marketing strategy to get them to keep sending you business. So that's probably like right now today, I would fix that first, because you already have the acquisition system, already have the network and so for me like reactivating that affiliate base would be the first thing that I did the second thing maybe because you might just reactivate the base and all of a sudden you're like I got 200 guys for referring me business holy shit

we're at 10 million but the second thing I would consider probably I would still probably focus most of my time on the B2B because you already have it but for this business I think that it lends itself for what's the price point six thousand dollars of treatment per treatment okay so the average doctor will send you one six thousand dollar patient per year when you said it cost you 500 they'll send you one patient interesting so do you have a process for once the patient get the thing calling the physician up sorry say that so like I'm dr. Smith I send you Sandy Sandy goes and gets the well you come to Sandy and Sandy gets the treatment is there a

cycle where you call back me dr. Smith and say hey we just dealt with Sandy here's some of her stuff not in a medical term like we're not putting notes back in because it is private for sure yeah but we do we have ask for more referrals, there's a circle back that way. There's not a patient loop back. Okay. That's not true. Sometimes that does happen. Excuse me. It does. Yeah. That's not systematized. Yeah, I would systemize a hell out of that. Because it's like, hey, you just send me this person, like, let me close that loop for you. She's awesome. We did this thing. She loved it. By the way, and then we have the, you know, the opening to the other, like,

what customers did, or customers, sorry, what patients did you see this week who you think it would be a good fit? and rather than saying, do you have any, it's which ones would be, is the question. Small training stuff, but it matters. So I feel like there's so much on the B2B side that honestly that's probably where I'd be ripping apart. So you would not go after a B2C approach, like advertising online, going,

pushing in on a strategy on that? It's not that I wouldn't, it's that when I think about, so this is the difference in like theoretical and actual. Like, I would, given the fact that you're already running good margins on this thing, basically doing it and take this the way I mean it, completely unoptimized, right now.

Again, this is not a slight. Then I'm like, there's so much juice left in this thing. I don't want to now start something new. It's like I barely got this one going. I want to like crush this. And when I'm like, no, we follow up with every single person. I've got a full-time affiliate manager who steps by our affiliates. I'm calling them affiliates, but drops by the docs once a week

just to remind us say nice things. Hey, by the way, like that is how. happening all the time and we've already covered like literally every single physician in the Twin Cities. Then I'm like, okay, let's go B2C. But if we haven't completely squeezed the hell out of this thing and it's already working at the level it is right now with like zero, like you're only getting one patient per doc. It's like so. Yeah, so you getting B2B customers the same as getting one B to C customer. I understand why you'd be frustrated because you'd be like, well, fuck it, I'll just, I could sell one customer on my own without having to deal with the dock.

But the whole point is that like I want them to be sending 20, 50 a month. and they can because they have the volume. And I think that first one has to be like a beautifully choreographed experience because that first patient's the test run for them, for you. They'll refer you one and we'll see what happens. Right. And so one, it's like, Sandy's got to be blown away. She's got to come back and be like, oh my God, that place was amazing.

And then you also have to go back to the dock and be like, we blew Sandy away, by the way. And so I think you have to tackle it from both sides. Okay. That's what I would do. getting into the ad side, you absolutely could do it, and we could walk through some, you know, a whole strategy there, but I, if we swap places, that's where I would be focusing on the time.

If you were going to try to expand into other major metros in the next 18 months, would you, would you have the B2C sorted out before you went to the next market, or would you? Honestly, no. If I crush my B2B play, then I just run my B2B playbook in the new market. Like, once I find something that works, I just want to just. Do more. Yeah, pillage.

Right on. Thank you. Yeah, no, you bet. Thank you.