The Game with Alex Hormozi - The Question Is, "Why Aren't You Doing It?" (on The Iced Coffee Hour) Pt.2 - March ‘22 | Ep 512

Episode Date: March 18, 2023

“Habits and how we create our identities are self-reinforcing.” Today, join Alex (@AlexHormozi) as he guests on The Iced Coffee Hour to talk about how weight loss advice can apply to other areas in your life, experiencing discomfort to get out of your current pain, and how your identity is based on what we do repeatedly. This is part 2 of the interview.Welcome to The Game w/Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth.Check out the episode on The Iced Coffee Hour’s YouTube Channel!Timestamps: (0:29) - Switching beliefs in religion and defining nihilism(7:35) - Finding your heroes, biggest insecurities, & seeking validation(17:45) - How weight loss advice can apply to other areas in life(32:05) - You will go through the new discomfort to get out of the current pain(37:32) - Our identity is based on what we do repeatedly(46:13) - Just because you’re hungry doesn’t mean you need to eatFollow Alex Hormozi’s Socials:LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Acquisition

We just need to strip away the perfection and get to the, like, if I directionally move in this way over a long enough period of time, I will get there as long as I don't stop. Welcome to the game where we talk about how to get more customers, how to make more per customer, and how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons we have learned along the way. I hope you enjoy and subscribe. I have an interesting question for you. So in the last podcast, you mentioned that at one point in your life, you were religious. So what made you make that switch in your head from going from religion?

Because I think you said you were on like one of those trips. I'm sorry, I forget what they're called. What made you switch that in your head to go from, you know, this very, very spiritual belief to like almost the complete opposite of like life is life. We die, we die. You know, fact is fact, nihilism as a whole. What made that switch in your head or was it like a long process? I mean, it was a very long process. It was five years.

And it was very, very hard for me. I will say this, the amount of messages I got from people who are Christian and Muslim and other faiths thinking that I attacked them on the last podcast. Like, I don't know how I can make the... You got messages? Yeah, I mean, just... Yeah, comments. But yeah. And I will say this again.

My statements are not an attack on your religion. They are simply an expression of what conclusions I have come to. And I'll say it right now. I'm wrong. I'm wrong. You're right. Everyone listening to what you believe. You're right.

That being said. I was even going to, at the time, a Christian therapist because I was like, I wanted somebody who understood therapy, but also like understood, you know, Christianity so they could kind of like work with me on these things. And after like a handful of sessions, she just looked at me and she was like, Alex, I think you just need to make a decision. She's like, you just, she's like, you've gathered all the data. You've gone, you've gone to the courses. You did a college course on the formation of the canon, which is like how the Bible was actually put together, why things were put in, why things were not put in. You know, like you've, you've investigated all this stuff, and I was obsessing about it. Because I think for me, until I understood, like, why I was here, like, nothing else mattered to me. So it's like, and some people that can just like walk through life without really thinking about it. And in some ways, I'm jealous. You know, I mean, they can just, they can just do that. I couldn't.

Like, I was like, why, why am I working? Why do I care about money? What's the point of all this? Like, that was always my first and most important thought is like, once we answer that box, then everything. else kind of falls underneath of it. And so I think it's safe to say that there are very exceptional people who can make arguments on both sides in terms of like there's nothing, it doesn't matter, and then there's really amazing apologists like Ravi Zacharias, who's an amazing apologize, who's a Christian. There's just a ton of guys, right? And they're brilliant people. And you can listen

to both sides of the arguments. But I think what ends up happening is that on some level you have a belief. And I'll rename that as an assumption because all beliefs are assumptions. But everyone has these assumptions. And at some point, you just have to say, like, okay, there's stuff on both sides that jury has to pass a verdict, right? And to say that, like, we have cracked it or like Alex has cracked it, the deeper you go in these arguments, the more there are just other arguments that just continue to get pulled. And that's why I just fell into this rabbit hole where I was like, I need to start becoming a productive member of society because like, this is just going on forever. And that's when she was just like, I think you just need to decide. and for me, the thing that felt more true to what I actually believed was that I didn't think any of it was real.

And I think it was because that initially saddened me, and I didn't want that to be. That's why I spent so much time trying to logic my way in to believing, because I do think it's a better life perspective to believe that there's capital M meaning, that there's somebody behind the scenes who's directing our lives so we can accomplish some greater goal, right, beyond ourselves. I just don't believe that. I wish I did. I spent five years trying to. I just don't believe it. And for everybody who messaged me and said, I really just need to talk to you for five minutes,

please don't. I'm good. I'm very content with my belief. And so for me now, I had to learn how to live with that belief and then kind of go from there, which is like, I don't believe that anything happens after we die.

And my evidence for that is that I have been dead because I have not been alive. And I know what it was like before I was alive, which was there was nothing. And I think that that's exactly what it'll be when I am not alive again. So to me, I'm okay with it. And that's fine. And I know it's, I'm not right.

You know what I mean? It doesn't, like, that's just my two cents. Alex's two cents on the world. And I think that people just need to figure out a belief. Like, whenever someone states a belief and they're like, well, I don't think that. I'm like, cool. Like, awesome. As long as like your belief serve you, great.

Like, I'm pro you. It's interesting. Once you, I guess, got rid of the idea of, or you didn't get rid of the idea of religion, but you just deemed it wasn't true for you. You described in the last episode that we did with you that you became nihilist. Could you define nihilism for those watching? And also, once you did become a nihilist, how did that change your life? Did it change anything on the day to day?

Or did it just, like, basically reaffirm kind of what you already believe deep down? I think it formal, it crystallized thoughts that I already had. So it's like, you know how you have these thoughts that are ill-defined are more amorphous? And like, once you put words to them, you're like, that's what I believe, right? And so I think that once I understood, like, I didn't even know nihilism with this thing when someone's like, oh, you sound like you believe in that. I was like, but again, that's just a lot labels on things because it's easier for us to organize in our minds. But like, I just inherently believe that there is no capital M meaning. That's it.

That's all I believe. It's just that there's no capital M meaning to what we're doing. There's little M meaning, as in like, I find this meaning. I find this stimulating. I do things that I enjoy. Like those are things that I find meaningful. Little M. But is me doing this podcast, Big M universe meaningful? No, I don't think so. Some people will disagree with me. That's okay. That's just my perspective. And so in terms of how it shifted my life, it actually in a lot of ways dramatically improved my life. What was the worst thing for me was the indecision. That five years was really hard for me because I just, I felt like I couldn't make

progress either way. Like I feel like I needed to be either say like, I'm all. in, I'm going, you know, all down the religious path. That's my, that's the game. Or I actually don't believe this. And people could make the argument, well, there's probably a million shades in between. Sure, but for me there wasn't. This is, it was either this or this for me. And so, believing that there was no inherent meaning freed me from a lot of stuff. So this belief that I had to do what my parents said or, or, you know, listen to the opinions of others and like be weighed down by judgments that I perceived to be there, which arguably probably weren't, right? those were the things that it gave me relief from.

And then the day-to-day anxieties of running a business and like, this person stole clients from you. And I'm like, when we die, it won't matter. It's okay. Like, we'll move on. Like, it's just not going to matter. And that's why I share it because there are probably other people who were in the same boat as me.

And so like, I'm just sharing it for those people. And if you're not one of those people, I love you and that's awesome. Like, I'm so stoked for you that you believe what you believe. But if you're not one of those people, I do think that giving yourself the freedom to have whatever little M meaning you want out of the activities that you do is incredibly freeing because you get to do what you define as meaningful, which is great. I like that. Who do you look up to? Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger are probably my two, like heroes.

Why? They've lived a life that I admire in a lot of ways. I think that like my life goal was to be like King Solomon. just a wise man. And I feel like they are like modern day, you know, King Solomon, King Solomons in that they are wise. They accumulated a lot of wealth. And they did it living what I would consider, you know, Aristotle's like good life. They did life their way. And I just have a tremendous amount of respect for that. And I have a lot of respect for Elon, you know, it's, I think it's more like the people that I look up to are people who are just authentically them

and just do things their way. And so that is what I try to do. And I think nihilism actually helped me do that a lot because I wasn't trying to fit into a cookie cutter of like you have to do these things this way, just much more like, I'm going to do this my way. And that's comma, and that's okay, period.

And that was very freeing for me. And so I think those guys embody a lot of those traits. A really interesting thing that I read was a lot of us make heroes out of our own deficiencies. And so like the people that we look up to are the people that embody things that we wish we had. And so it's like being mindful of who you look up to is a great exercise and self-reflection. It's like, why do I look up to these people?

And it's probably because on some level, like, I feel the most pressure of not being me. Right. And so, like, the pressures around, like, I mean, I almost was in a hardcore religious person. Like, I am very, you know, I don't say susceptible, like, I am swayed by those things. And so making the decision to choose not to do that, despite basically walking away from a community and all that stuff, was very hard. But it fell right to me. And so I feel confident in the decision. Who do you look up to, Jack?

Yeah. You, Graham. Oh. I would say probably mainly just my parents, big idols of mine. Interesting. Is it? Yeah. I mean, I think that's interesting.

I think a lot of people don't look up to their parents. Because I think they live a perfect life. Wow. I don't know. I just really, really admired. They're great people. I love their philosophies, and I think they're super. nice,

charitable, they're respectful, good people. It's great. They got a nice house too. Oh. That's what it really was. Overlux the beach.

Jack's trying to get on the will right now. I love you, mom and dad. You guys are the best. Seriously. Just make sure to put me untitle, though. I love you. Way more than my brother. Yeah.

Yeah. So was the view. Yeah. If we're going to talk, I guess like, great driveway. Nice good drive. And we're talking like big figures. Great bones.

Yeah. The house is good bones. I would say, I guess like, I really look, I like Elon Musk. I don't want to be one of those people that's just like the classic person that just like idolizes Elon Musk. But he's, he's pretty awesome. It's like saying LeBron's not a good basketball player because everyone says LeBron's a good basketball. That's why I had no problem admitting that I like Elon because he's admirable. That more people admit it has nothing.

with his excellence. Yeah. Right. It's hard for me to look up to people that I don't know super well. Fair. I suppose. Like, it's easier if I know someone through and through. Like, anytime I picture people I admire, it's mostly the first things that come to mind

are people that I'm familiar with. You know, that's really interesting because I think it's like for me, like the entrepreneurial career path that I went on. It went from having mentors to heroes. And so mentors are people who like as least decided to find them that you have close proximity to kind of speak into your life. And I think as you continue to like, I'll say level up, and I say that loosely, within the material success world, that's all I'm saying. There were fewer and fewer people in my close proximity that I was like, I look up to you because I feel like I've already kind of hit some of these check marks.

And so I think that you end up moving up to like finding your heroes. And then that's like Charlie Munger talks about this where he has all these, all his best friends are dead because it's like Benjamin Franklin and the people that he consumed all their stuff because he, they, they be. became his mentors. And so I think that that, at least for me, was a shift that I feel like has continued to reinforce itself over time as like the people I look up to are not in my life at all, but I still consume like I've been tremendously impacted by Warren and Charlie, even though I don't know them. But you're saying like once you checked those boxes of the reasons why you looked up to these people, then you could no longer look up to them. Not look up to them, but like, trying to be mindful of how I say this. But like, I'll give a very quantitative example. If I

I, if I'm looking up to somebody for, you know, their physique or something, right? And then I achieve the physique that I want, then it's not that I don't look up to them, but like, I don't need more. Like, I have understood the lessons. I don't need more lessons on this path. Like, I get it. But what if it's not something like, like, it's more like of a mental thing. Like you look up to them for their philosophies or just their overall well-being.

Once he understands the philosophies, you can find he's just, that off and really. So there's like that, I mean, Richard Feynman talks about this where the point is not to memorize, the point is to understand. It's like once you understand something, it becomes a part of you and you take it with you and you can apply it in a number of scenarios.

And so if someone has something or a perspective that you don't have, the goal should just be to understand it so that you can take it with you. I actually really like that answer because I can relate a lot to that. Because when I look at people, like when I watched people, for example, on YouTube when I was learning, you, let's say photography, I didn't want to keep them as my mentor forever because then if I look up to somebody and I don't learn and I don't understand myself, then there will always be a deficit between my knowledge and their knowledge, if that makes sense. So I think it's always good to kind of want to understand things fully for yourself or, you know.

And I think there's also a sequence to knowledge. So this is actually kind of interesting. So if you think about when you learned math, because it's a simple example, right? Like first you learned like simple addition and then you learned multiplication. And then when you went from your addition teacher, your arithmetic teacher to your multiplication teacher, you weren't like, screw my arithmetic teacher. There was so much better stuff out there. Like they were teaching me basics. It's like, well, you had to learn that to learn the next thing.

Right. So it's not like I poo poo them. It's just that like I no longer need that. I need some, I need the next building block. And so I think that if you look at your life and those components of like maybe health and wealth and relationships and maybe spirituality. etc. You can look up to people who have an understanding of the topic that is more in depth than your current understanding or has an understanding that you prefer to your understanding and then learn of them in that. And if someone just continues to have a more and more in depth understanding

of it, which is why I think the higher up you go in terms of like the people that you're looking at, the deeper their knowledge is on the subject, which gives you a longer period of time to continue to look up them, right? And so, which is why it's natural that a lot of many people share the big public heroes because those big public heroes have such a depth of knowledge compared to everyone else that they can stay public heroes because a lot of people never never surpass them or never fully understand what those people understand. But like if you're close proximity, you assimilate the lessons and knowledge and perspective from them, then like you expand your circle. It seems from the outside that you've already kind of like optimized everything. I don't want to say

you're set in your ways, but you're confident. in what you believe and what's optimal at this point. And what can you work on? And what's your biggest insecurity? Ooh. It's a good one. It's certainly not your hairline.

Certainly not. Oh, God. Lifting up your brim. I see that, man. Oh, man. My biggest insecurity. It's probably the dual-sided point of ego and validation from others,

I still am sensitive to the fact that, like, I know that it's still drives me and I don't like that it does. And so it's just like, you know, just consistently trying to just peel back the amount that it influences my decision-making processes. You know, like, the simple example is the content example. It's like, you make a video, you think it's awesome. People think it sucks. And there's like two sides of that. One is like you want to serve a marketplace. So you have to understand that part of it. But the other part of is like, do I now suck?

Right? Which is like, am I taking the performance of the thing and then, you know, projecting it on myself? And I think that I still have a tendency to do that more than I would, that I'd be happy, you know, like I would prefer to not do that. I prefer to take the feedback objectively as it is and have zero percent reflect back on me. But I don't, I'm not at zero percent. And so I think that's probably my, my biggest insecurity is, is the validation from others' piece. I think I'm significantly better at it than I was, but I think it's still something that I want to work on. Who do you seek validation from? Oh, it's just like the unwashed, you know, just the masses overall. Yeah. And as a quick

rerun on the point that you were making earlier, like, I think I've inherited a lot of the character traits, not inherited, but like actively tried to ascribe to a lot of the character traits like Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett. And I think a lot of that is because when I look at old people, they have really good perspectives on things. And most of them

don't care about most things because they realize that life is short. And so I'm trying to live my life as an old man for a longer period of time rather than waiting until I'm 70 to realize that it doesn't matter and I'm going to die. It's just that I think once people get older and their death is looming, their priorities become much clearer.

And the, the, I think inanities is the word. Ananities of life become irrelevant, right? It's just like, who cares? Like, that doesn't matter. Like, because life is literally too short for them. Like, they literally don't have time for that.

And so trying to kind of project that into the present and trying to use an old man's wisdom in a young man's life is kind of my goal. But then what about a skill or something? that you want to work on that you don't yet have. I feel like, so I talk about this on my channel a lot, but there's three things that limit an entrepreneur, right? There's skills, there's character traits,

and there's beliefs. And so the beliefs are some of the hardest ones because you're not aware of them, because you believe them, right? We question all of our beliefs, except for those that we truly believe and those who never think to question, right? And so those are the three things in terms of improvement. So it's not necessarily just skills.

It's also like traits and beliefs. I think that from a skill perspective, when I look at leverage a vehicle, I don't do, I don't feel comfortable raising funds from other people. That would probably be the next natural piece to my business career would be having some sort of fund structure for like the investments that we're doing because we're obviously getting very good returns on them. I just, there's part of me that I can see the value in the fund structure and having, you know, helping other people. participate in us, you know, allowing us to do more deals, bigger deals, et cetera. But there is a certain amount of autonomy that I enjoy having, not reporting to anyone. And so I wouldn't want the investors to become a new boss because that I know I would not like. And so I'd have to structure the right way. But anyways, I think that is, that is probably a skill deficiency that

I currently have, at least a in-depth understanding of capital markets from like the fundraising side. That's probably the skill that I need to work on the most in the probably three to five-year horizon. guys, if you can think about how you found this podcast, somebody probably tweeted it, told you about it, shared it on Instagram or something like that. The only way this grows is through word of mouth. And so I don't run ads. I don't do sponsorships. I don't sell anything. My only ask is that you continue to pay it forward to whoever showed you or however you found out about this podcast that you do the exact same thing. So if it was a review, if it was a post, if you do that, it would mean the world to me and you'll throw some good karma out there for another entrepreneur.

Got it. Alex, you should ask some questions. Yeah. Some of what you disagree with about what I said, Yeah. You want me to disagree with more of your points? Oh my gosh. Yeah, sure. I don't know because I don't think. Give us, give us some either issues, problems or things in your life, Alex, that you want to work on or that you want to improve. My whole life is a problem, Graham.

We didn't do any of that. Oh, let's talk about that. You know what, Graham, that is a problem in my life. Let's talk about that. So, as you guys can tell by looking at me, you know, I'm not the peak of physical fitness. Okay. But that is definitely a problem in my life that I think that I've neglected. And I think that I could definitely use a lot of work on.

And there's a lot of aspects to it. But Alex, how do you do it to just conquer? Because, I mean, look at you, man. You're true. I noticed to say the Jack Wong is like, is that a tighter shirt? No, I just worked out this morning. And I'm thinking the same thing. It's incredible.

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Yeah. That's what I do it for. For that validation. It would just tear it. It would rip it. It's stretchy.

That's the key, right? That's the key. So this is a good question because, I mean, I did this. I dedicated the first half of my professional career to this. And I would say that the nice thing is that the fitness weight loss thing is a question that has a lot of roots that can apply to other things. It can apply to personal finance. It can apply to fitness.

It can apply to marriage. Like the concepts of how you fix it are the same. And so I would ask you a question back, which is Alex, what do you think you should do? Yeah, if you wanted to be better than you are right now, what would you do? In regards to fitness? Sure. I already know what to do, I guess. Right.

Yeah. And so the real question is not what do I need to do, because you already know what to do. The question is, why aren't you doing it? Yeah. So how do I answer that question? Because, I mean, like, I was talking to Graham about this the other day, and I'm going to get a really personal here, guys. Yeah. You know, I told Graham that at the weight that I met,

And luckily I'm comfortable to talk about this. So please don't hold back. And I might be putting myself in a box here and I hate to do this, but I'm speaking openly. I feel like at my weight, you don't get to my weight by having like a small problem, right? I think there's some sort of like emotional problem, whether it's like something like either in the addiction to food or like some sort of like. How much do you weigh right now if you're comfortable saying? I'll ask you a better question. Okay.

Why aren't you 200 pounds heavier? Probably because I can't eat that much. So you do know how to stop. Yes, I believe so. So here's what's interesting. You do know how to stop. It's just that you're stopping. You don't have an issue.

You just stop at the wrong point. So it's not like I can't stop, but you can stop because otherwise you'd be 200 pounds heavier. Can you explain that a little more? So a lot of people were like, I have an issue. You know, I'm been eating. I can't stop eating once I start. start, et cetera. It's like, okay, well, then why aren't you twice as big? Well, I can't eat that

much. Cool. Okay. So you do know how to stop. We just need to shift when you stop, right? But that's like, again, that's only to break that belief. The real real is is becoming rather than thinking about the doing. Right. So you've probably heard the B do half, right? Like you have to be a certain type, like habits and how we create our identities are self-reinforcing, right? We do certain things and because we do those things, we believe certain things about ourselves, right? And because we believe certain things about ourselves, we do certain things, right? And so it's a, it's a constant reinforcement loop. And so like, one of the telltale signs of somebody who's not going to be successful is like, oh, I'm trying to lose weight. It's like, no, that's not, because like, they've already

identified themselves as somebody who's not going to lose weight. And so we just need to wait for them to fail, right? Because they're already, they're already you're saying, this is outside of myself, I have to push myself to get there, rather than thinking like, I'm, I want to become a healthy person. And so when you are confronting the many hundreds of decisions that you have every day, rather than trying to zone in on the super tactical of like, I have to weigh this and I have to count this and whatever, it's just simply like, what would a healthy person do in the scenario? Like at every point, just like, what would a healthy person do? It's like they would do this. Like, okay. And the thing is, like, you're not trying to be necessarily right. You just want to be

less wrong than you are right now. Yeah, that makes sense. I think maybe that's where I kind of had a downfall, Because there was a point where I did commit to weight loss. And in my head, I guess I wasn't right, but in my head, I committed that, you know, this is a lifestyle change, right? It's with me for the whole life. And I lost 45 pounds, which, you know, for me that was a lot. But for some reason, and it was all that was in my head. Like every day when I would wake up, you know, I would be, it would be like a conscious, like, choice of like what I was eating, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, but the thing is, it became

so, I don't want to say, I don't know if it was toxic, but it became so, I'm going to use the word toxic, that like, that's all I thought about in my head. And I don't know how to go back there without doing that again, because it was so, that part was so detrimental to my health, but obviously so is eating. Yeah, they're both that. But the thing is, like, I think you can take us a season and not project it forever, right? So it's just for now you will have this kind of obsession around eating food and that's okay because you're making a behavior change, right? Like it's good that it's at the front of your mind.

Like that is what is creating the change. After you do that for a year or two years or three years, it will stop being as important because you'll do it without thinking about it. And then it's not going to be a thing. But most people who have like really exceptional physiques, we're obsessed with it for a period of time. Most people have exceptional marriages. We're obsessed with it for a period of time. People have really good personal finances. We're obsessed with it for a period of time. And then there's just so many things that you don't even think about. Or like, well, of course I use whatever, you know, apps

use. Like, of course I don't go out to, I don't get advertisers when we got it. Of course, I don't buy name brand stuff. Like, it's just obviously. But when in the beginning, you have to put active attention because it's not normal. The goal is just to get the activities that you're doing to become kind of unconscious competence, which is like you're doing them without thinking about them so they don't actually take willpower because it's just how you've always done it. But you have to get through the part where it's not how you've always done it. And so you have to allocate more attention to it. So I don't like judging yourself on the fact that it was quote obsessive is like, so what? But I think it's the toxic. It's the mentality, Alex, right? So why was that, why was that toxic for you?

What made that that impactful? Like it was literally distracting me from my work. Like I would sit there and I would be working. And all I can think, about was like, okay, like at 5 p.m. I'm like I obsessed with the numbers. Like, um, I knew like, and this is good. I think it's important to know this. Um, like I knew how many meals or how much how many calories the next meal I was eating at what time. Like how many calories I have left for the day. Uh, because I was so focused on trying to be in a caloric deficit, which is obviously like the key to losing weight. Um, but like I would be working and I would, just think about it. And then it would like pull me out of my work. And, you know, like, like Alex said, I mean, maybe it was a good thing. But, and then eventually, it just, you know,

I, I stopped following what I was doing, which I, in hindsight, obviously, I wish I didn't. But it, that's why it became, I think, a problem for me, Graham. But yeah. Alex, wouldn't you say it's better? This, Alex, to find the root cause of the issue, like to go deeper and say, This is why I'm eating a certain way. This is what maybe caused it and solving that underlying issue would kind of help everything else rather than just focus on the surface level. Calories in, calories out. Yeah.

I hear what you're saying with the question. I think a lot of us, because if we have a big problem, we want to find a big root cause, and sometimes it's not. And I think that we have to give ourselves permission for like, maybe just food tastes good. And like, we're evolutionarily designed to, like, have a super stimuli. when something is salty and fatty and sweet at the same time. And so, like, we've gotten very good at pushing our own buttons. And so, like, just saying, like, yeah, this is not...

Because, like, in some ways, it becomes this, like, huge beast that I have to defeat when we said, like, this is this huge emotional issue. And I had my kids, my parents, and when I was a kid, and I would eat ice cream, and that's how I felt good. Like, you tell herself these stories, but I don't know how useful it is. Because then it just exaggerates the size of the problem, rather than just saying, like, I am going to be a... healthy person and make decisions that are in accordance with that. And a healthy person, if they ate out

once, wouldn't be like, oh, I guess I'm not a healthy person anymore. They would just do better. You know, they would just go back to normal the next day. And so like, you can start whenever, as long as you start changing how you identify yourself. And I think that's just like, that's the root of the stuff is like, how do you identify yourself? And then you act in accordance with that identity. Like, if you are always like, I've just always struggled with my weight, well, that's what you identify with. And so you're just going to reinforce that identity. So we have to switch that. There's a great book on this. James Clear talk. It's atomic habits. Really good. But you're going to live in accordance with that. And so you have to stop set,

like you have to stop identifying with the things that are not serving you. I mean, I agree. I just, I don't know what to say. What's holding you back, Alex? Gosh, we're going deep. I really don't know, to be honest with you. Why wouldn't you start today? There's no reason. So we could do that. I mean, there's nothing. But there was nothing holding me back yesterday or the day before. Well, just a decision. Yeah, exactly. So you can make the decision whenever you want.

Yes, but I think it's a, it's a hard decision, I guess. Why wouldn't you do it today? There's literally no reason. Well, there is a reason because you're not doing it. So why wouldn't you do it? Why are you not doing this right now? We could? There's literally no reason.

Well, maybe there is, like you said, but there's none that I can. No, I think, yeah, I think the reason would be that Alex feels like he could do it at any time. So why start today? because it's, I think it's easier to start next week or the week after. And I know this because I'm very much the same way. It's like, yeah, I agree with that because I feel like it's my choice. But then that's so stupid because when I'm now sitting here, I'm like, well, I also had the choice to start it a year ago. Right.

So. Isn't it? Doesn't it get to the point where all of a sudden the pain exceeds the pleasure? And I don't think Alex has gotten to a point yet where it's, it's painful. It's maybe uncomfortable. but I think starting now is more uncomfortable than just... You might have to get bigger. What?

Yeah, you might have to get bigger to get there. Like, because, I mean, at the end of the day, like, you just have to hit your version of rock bottom. You know what I mean? For me, like, my version of rock bottom is like 15% body fat. And so, like, for me, I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I look at myself and I'm like, oh, just do you piece of shit. Come on.

Don't eat like an asshole. You know, and then I got my shit together. And so, like, the only difference, like, between how people, look is just where they draw the line to where they feel like an asshole. Like that's it. Like all you're doing is just like saying, you know, like, I feel like an asshole if I have above, you know, 10% body fat. There's tons of people who live there. There's some people who are like, that line is 20%. That line is 30%. But what's crazy is that like once you just maintain the same way. So it's like for me, I'd think like, why would you not maintain it good rather than

maintaining at normal? Because like all you have to do is get there once and then you just maintain it. So anyways, that's, you know, Alex's perspective. But that's also because I came from somebody who really wanted outside validation. And so the easiest and first place to start for me was my body. So I started lifting when I was 13 years old. So I'm like almost 20 years in this game in terms of like the lifting and health and stuff. And so for me this is not like we had we talked about it at dinner last night. It's like this is not in any way time consuming for me mentally because like I am I am and I do these things because that is who I am. And so it is not very difficult for me. It's just difficult for people to make the change. And I know the quote you were saying,

which is, you know, when change occurs when staying the same exceeds the pain of change. Right. And so it's like if your current existence hurts more than the discomfort that you will go through, then you will go through the new discomfort to get out of the current pain. Right. There's a million ways you can do it. And that's why when you say, like, the root issue, it's like there's lots of tiny cues in Alex's environment that reinforces current behavior. It's not one thing.

It's like, what's in the pantry? And he walks in the door. Like, just like all of these tiny little things. So, like, you can change someone's environment. I'll tell you an interesting one that I actually read in James Clear's book. But so heroin's very hard to get off of. And that's a statement of belief, but I'll just, just bear with me. In Vietnam, I think it was 15%.

and then later they thought it was 20% of guys who went there tried heroin. Insane. Like that's an insane statistic. And what was interesting about that is that when those Vietnamese now became veterans and came back, 90% of them never did it again. And the reverse statistic is true of like U.S.-based addiction programs, right? 90% of people do heroin again after they leave the program. So how can you have the most addictive substance, right?

And you've got a 90% success rate in one incident. And then you've got like a 90% failure rate in the other. And this one wasn't even a program and this one was. Right. And so what happens is people, if you can pull someone out of the environment entirely, it's actually much easier to do because it's like you hang out with certain people. And they reinforce those behaviors. You have cues in your environment that you've associated with,

which reinforce the behaviors. And so like if you really went all in on something like this and you could apply this to any type of behavior, whether it was drugs or food or whatever, is like honestly just changing everything about your life. And then starting for scratch is like, I'm making these big changes. I'm burning the boats. I'm being this person and I will make these choices as a result of this in accordance with that is sometimes the best way to do it is like clean slate. But that might sound like a lot of change. And so you can also just not do any of that stuff and just eat less. But it's just tackling the big issue. which is like why you don't care. I'd say one of the biggest things like you guys are saying where the, what is it, the discomfort of the environment is so bad that it forces change. And the discomfort of going through it is easier. I will say, I mean, I've had situations where going on a plane for me, terrible experience, right? I mean, you know, just stuff like my wife probably wants to go parasailing if we go on vacation. I probably can't do that, you know?

And it's just like, I feel like there's a lot of like life that I'm missing out on. And I've thought about it so deeply that, I mean, I've cried about it before. Yeah. But apparently, like, it's not hard enough to change me. But I don't know if I need to hit rock bottom for like me to make a change. That's great. That's a great statement because it is a good statement of belief to say, I don't need to hit rock bottom to make a change. I agree with that.

I think that is a belief that serves you. Yeah. And so I just, I don't. don't know how to just click it. Like, I really don't. Well, you just start. That's all. There's no, like, there's nothing complex about it. You just start.

You go home, you take away the stuff that you eat that's not good. That's it. At the end of the day, you've got to be ready, and we're not going to talk you into it, right? Like, if, if you not being able to live half of the life is not sufficient, then you got to find something that is. You know, a good friend of mine ran a super marathon, and it was, like, extremely difficult for him. And he said, I think on social media, he was like, I just had a big bag of whys. So he didn't just have one Y. He had to have a huge bag of just like you just pull out Y after Y after Y after Y to keep

him going through this thing. And so like maybe you don't need one Y. Maybe you need a lot of Ys. You know, maybe you don't have enough Y's. Do you need enough wise? I mean, at the end of the day, like this, this change is yours. You know, you've got to make it. And it's when it's when the reality of the condition is real for you.

Like it breaks my heart. It really does. I mean that like in the most sincere. my mother was super overweight my whole life and she just recently in the last two years she's now in her 60s like my whole life super overweight like morbidly obese in the last two years and for me that might be my you know an easy why for me is like I don't want to live that easy boom I don't need like not even a thought to me right but when her physician and mind you my mother is a physician So like crazy, right?

It was only one her physician, she tried all these diets for whatever, it was when she was like, you're not going to see your grandkids. Like, zero percent chance. It's not going to happen. You're not going to see them. You're going to die before that.

Like, there's no question. And it was only in that moment that she decided to really do it. And she always knew what to do. Eat less, walk more. Like, it's not rocket science, right? But for her, that was enough that whenever she was confronted with decision,

because you have 100 microdecisions that happen every day. Am I going to take the stairs? I'm not going to take the stairs? I'm going to walk? Am I not to do it? Am I going to grab this extra bag or not? Right?

Or whatever it is. And so I think it's like if you have that at the root, you'll be able to make the change. And then that will get you through the discomfort phase so that you can change your identity. And I love this. Again, I read this in the Atomic House book, which really good. But if you look at identity, it's the root of two words. You've got entity. There's the Latin version of it, but basically being.

And then you've identical, like identical, which is repeated. And so like identity is literally repeated being is what we repeatedly do is who we are. And like when you describe somebody, you're like he's the type person who X, Y, and Z's, right? Like that's how we even describe identity is what people do. And so the nice thing is that you don't win the vote of identity all at once. It's just one vote at a time. And the beautiful thing is that you can just be like 51%, just like a vote. Like if you just do a little more, you win.

You don't have to be perfect. You just have to do more than you do bad. And if you do that for a long enough period of time, like, it will continue to reinforce itself. And so a lot of people have a binary vision of like what, quote, perfect health style of them looks like. And that's silly. And it's a farce. And it'd be like trying to pretend like you're going to be a perfect human. It's not going to happen. Right. But like you could also redefine healthy as just somebody who like just doesn't binge. You know what I mean? Or like just like you already know the stuff. So like there's no point even getting in the tactics of this because it's just behavior change. And so I probably went too too deep on that. But it breaks my heart. But it has to break your heart. Yeah, I think for me, okay, so yeah, some people have different reasons for why they're not currently doing it, right? For me, I have the knowledge, right?

I research into what I need to do, blah, blah, blah. I'm like in my head, to be honest, I'm ready to make the change. But the one thing I think that is holding me back, the more I think about it is the feeling of like, I don't know how to describe it other than like imposter syndrome, right? like what really and maybe this is just stemming from like confidence issues what really makes me think that I can do this like and I think that that is what like is my biggest hurdle probably and I don't know how to overcome that here's something cool you don't need to be confident to do this because your calories don't care if you're confident yeah but for you no calories don't care if I'm confident or you're confident or anyone's confident calories do not care no I understand no I understand

that, but like, I mean in my head, I need to be, like, confident about it to follow that. That's a statement. Alex thinks it's going to fail. So, why try it because I'm going to fail? Mm-hmm. That's sad. But it's one of those things where you can't let the past burn you twice, right? Which is like, if you failed in the past, if you project that failure into the present,

then that past failure continues to repeat itself by you don't even trying. It's like, if we're looking at a kid who's walking, right, and they fall, we're not like, I think it's just going to be a crawler. You know, like, we don't say that, right? But right now you're applying that same, like, you say so much worse things to yourself when it's like if you failed, so what? It's like it's a process. You're going to learn to walk. You'll learn to walk eventually as long as you don't stop.

That's true. So basically what you're saying is if I'm not trying and fail, like even if I'm like trying and failing, it basically it's better than just sitting here and being like, well, I'm not going to start because I'm going to fail. And just like getting better. Let me say this. Why don't we say, yes, you're going to fail. Expect failure. It's like starting a business. Of course you're going to fail. That is part of the game. But saying that you stop doing something versus failing are two very different things. If you eat a pizza one day, right? But then the other rest of the week, you're fine. Did you fail? No. Right. So it's like we just need to read if like it's, we just need to strip away the perfection and get to the, like if I directionally move in this way over a long enough period of time, I will get there. long as I don't stop. That was great. Yeah. That was a good point.

Yeah, everything that you're saying is, is great. I mean, it's for some reason it's just stuff that like, I don't, it's not sticking about. I don't, I don't think about it.

To be frank. You'd have to pull this thread, and I don't necessarily know that we have the time to do it on, on this podcast, but like, you have to figure out why your, your gut instinct was to say,

eating healthy was bad. Like, that's basically, like, if I were to make this, boil this down into, simple terms, you're like, I started eating healthy and I decided it was bad. So it's figuring out why you made that experience bad in your head and figuring out like, because there's probably

other things that eating does for you. It probably relieves stress, right? So it's like great. And the nice thing is that there's lots of cues for stress in our lives. So you have a number of cues that trigger the behavior. So it's not just one. It's like you can get stress for resilient things and then have a really easy, because like, like, habits are created for like mental shortcuts so we don't have to make decisions. And so it's like, I feel stressed. I can resolve this immediately with this thing. I don't even think about it. You're just starting to walk towards the fridge when you feel stressed, right? And so to break this, like, man, we're going to get way too deep into behavior stuff. So I'll just, I'll cut it at this, which is you got to figure out why you're not, why you didn't

start yesterday. And there's a reason that you have and you need to name the reason. And it may be ridiculous. But like, some people are like, it's just not convenient. Cool, then make it convenient. And then all of a sudden, like, it's sometimes it's the tiniest thing. Like, I'll tell you this tiny example, which is I try and put face cream on every night before I go to bed. It's like, one of the habits that I really was like, I'm going to try and do this. Right. And when our, the maids come, it sounds ridiculous. When the maids come to clean our place, I have like my bedside set up. And then they take all my stuff that's like right next to me. And then they like move it along the back line of the bedside table. So like the cream. So like the cream.

like over a box and like it's hard to reach. And when I'm in bed, I can't reach it. And after that, and I had to realize it because I was like, I'd get on a good routine and then like two or three days in, I would stop doing it. And then I realized the only reason I stopped doing it was because I didn't see the cream. And if I did remember the cream, it was like I would have to get out of bed to go grab it and then put it back. And so I had to tell the maids, leave them along the side and don't move them. It's the tiny, like these tiny things, just like I had a visual cue and it made it more difficult. So I removed the visual cue because it was further away, and then it got harder rather than making it easier and making it obvious. I think I have an answer for you, actually.

Okay. So the only reason that I thought about food all day in my quote-unquote tossing behavior is because I was hungry. Yeah, this sounds stupid. No, you're not. You're not. You're bored. If you could eat a chicken breast, like if you're like, oh, man, I could go for a chicken breast, you're hungry. If you're like, oh, I could like go for a snack, you're bored. I don't know. It felt like hunger. Yeah, of course. You don't know the difference. Yeah, I don't know the difference. You learn the difference. When you're really hungry, you're like, chicken sounds great. Like an apple sounds delicious. You know what I mean? But like when you're, when you're bored,

you're like, I could go for some chips. You know what I mean? Like if you could go for a chicken breast that's dry with no sauce, that's when you're hungry. I think I think you're 100%. You probably haven't. You probably haven't. You know, you know, know what, thinking about it. Guys, I know this sounds so, you're right, it sounds stupid. It sounds so stupid. But like in my head, right? Yeah.

Until you said that, I was convinced that I was hungry all the time. But now that you said that, I don't think I was hungry. And I know that sounds stupid. You guys are like probably, you guys are probably laughing. I swear to, I swear to whatever you believe in. Yeah. A lot of the times where I'm like, a little snack, it's, you know, the dead space. where you would normally reach for your phone.

It's like, well, I may as well as eat a quick snack. Alex, you haven't been hungry in years. What are you trying to say about that? I'm saying that you've been overfeeding for a very long period of time. And so you have such a surplus and stores that your body can take from for a very long period of time. Yeah, I agree with you. I think I just had like an epiphany. I think I don't know.

This is so crazy. I think I don't know the difference between being hungry and being bored. I know that sounds stupid. No, it's fine. I think very few people know the difference between even me, I don't know.

But then, okay, if you don't know the difference, then why don't you look like me, Graham? What's up? If you don't know the difference, then why don't you look like me? You're pretty physically active. Yeah, I've been going to the gym quite a lot, but I always...

My default is probably eating healthy, but until I've started tracking calories, I've realized that I've eaten more than I've expected. But my default is still eat healthy, eat small portions, but without tracking it, I eat more than I think I do. I just want to thank you for your time. I didn't mean to bring you on the podcast and, like, bombard you with my physical physique questions or anything. I'm sure there are other people who are listening who are, you could replace this with alcohol. You could replace this with, you know, whatever. It's the same thing.

My mind is just blown right now. Like now I feel like I could do it. And I just want to just reinforce this one point, which is just because you are hungry does not mean you need to eat. So you used being hungry as a justification for eating. You can be hungry and not eat. You can be horny and not have sex with somebody who's not your wife. So just because you have a feeling doesn't mean you need to take action on it. Right.

So first we had to delineate between the fact that most of the time you're bored are not actually hungry. But even if you are hungry, that doesn't give you permission to then go eat. Because if you diet, you will be hungry. actually. And a chicken breast will sound good. So it doesn't necessarily mean that you have permission to eat outside of what you think you need to hit for your calorie intake. Is it just like a mental thing at that point? You already know the calorie stuff. There's no point in getting into that.

Like if you really want to do it, you already know. You Google it. You know you need to eat less than you are right now. And you would just do that. Is it just reminding yourself that like you, you know how much you're supposed to eat and just say, I have enough to live. It's just my body telling you could right now, literally, drink water and take a multivitom for a, year and be fine. There's no way. 100%, promise you. They've already done studies on this. You can absolutely do it.

I mean, I'm not going to, but. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying like, you have more than enough stores to last you for a very long time. So, like, the only thing you're doing to eat is just like you're just moving things through your system, but like, that's it. They've done starvation studies and like your basic metabolic rate goes down, but not by, I mean, it goes down by 30%, which is something, but it's not massive. And you're still going to have a high business metabolic rate overall because you have more of you to, you to, feed and maintain. Like, fat takes calories to keep alive. Like, you have that on you, but it still requires blood and nutrients to stay alive, right? To, like, not, you know, become dead

tissue. So, like, in a lot of ways, it's easiest to lose weight when you are bigger. So you can keep saying that as your, as your refrain. It's like, I am bigger, which means it should be easier for me to lose weight because it is. Yeah. I don't want to later on this too long because I think we've gone long enough. But I seriously, I, I, I, I seriously, I, I, I want to thank you. I'm today. The day, Alex? I think so, but I, you kind of scared.

Yes or no. Yes, it is. He kind of scared me with the like, you're going to be real hungry. And I'm just like, oh, but you know what? I'm, I think I've just been eating because I'm bored. And I know people are going to think this is stupid. Like, Alex, of course, you're eating when you were bored. But to me, I'm telling you guys, like, I truly felt hungry.

Like, in my head, that was hunger. And I, thinking back, I don't think that was, I don't distract yourself. And that was kind of stupid. Yeah. You shouldn't be bored at work. That's the real issue. But we'll talk about that after the podcast. Al, you know, I'm kidding.

No, we're good. Thank you. No, you bet. It's a blast to have you on, man. I appreciate it. I was really looking forward to this. Yeah. Yeah.

Even going out to dinner last night. And I, like, I genuinely enjoy hanging. out, but it's listening to you talk. I learned so much. And more than just like, just like a friendship, but also just the fact that like, I feel like I am like the student of so many things and like just being exposed to different thoughts and a different way of thinking and a different structure. It is very few podcasts afterwards.

Do I just like just want to be alone? And this is always one of them because I have so much to think about after we end this. I appreciate it. And thank you guys for having me on. I think it's chunking down and chunking up in terms of like thought process, just like, why are we doing this? And I think that's just been the core of it. It's just like, why am I bothering to do this? Why does this matter?

And so, you know, it does go back to my worldview. It is the seed that kind of like has borne all the fruit of the other things that I have. It's just like, why am I choosing to? Because it is an active choice. And so, you know, I'm glad that the thoughts that I've had have been at least thought-provoking because they took me a long period of time to figure out on my own. And I think they're, you know, they can be unique to different people. But for me, that this set of beliefs has served me well.

Yeah. And so I continue to believe them. Thank you for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you guys.