The Gargle - A future of Gene-Editing and AI generated Ghosts?

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

On this week's episode of the Gargle, Alice is joined by Robin Clyfan and Josh Gondelman as the three, dive into the world's science and tech news! From the moral case of gene editing, to the discovery of a new species of Lizard in Peru. Plus Dopamine spiking fake shopping, AI-generated 'ghosts' polluting literature and the return of the Bogong moth! Alice Fraser: https://www.patreon.com/AliceFraser & https://www.instagram.com/alicefraserhuman/Robin Clyfan: https://www.instagram.com/robin_clyfan/ Josh Gondelman: https://www.joshgondelman.com Subscribe to Realms Unknown - a fantasy, sci-fi and speculative fiction podcast from Alice Fraser and The Bugle!https://www.thebuglepodcast.com/news/realms-unknownYou fund what we do!https://www.thebuglepodcast.com/donateProduced by Harry Gordon, with Executive production from Chris Skinner Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a universe, expanding at a rate only slightly discounted by the fact it's doing mates rates rates with quantum physics, only one podcast is this podcast, probably, depending on where you sit on multiverse theory, bringing you all of the satire that will fit into a podcast of reasonable length about all of the science and technology news we have personally been able to find and understand. It's the giggle. I'm your host, Alice Fraser, and welcoming our guests for today, Baron of the Bunsen Burner, most fabulous fact totem of the facts factory, the man who puts the abs into labs coat. It's Robin Cliffon. Hello. Hey, how you're doing? I like the abs compliment there. I have been a good one. Thank you.

Thank you for coming and being on the show. And from the city that's full of doctors, despite allegedly being a big apple, a big apple with insomnia, it's the Earl of Punctuality, the Prince of Punch Lines, the man who, when his agent, told him to go viral on TikTok,

deliberately caught an STD from a cuckoo clock. It's Josh Gondelman. Hello, thank you for not erroneously, saying that I have been working on apps. But we're going to go into all of the science and technology news that we have personally found interesting this week. But before we get into the top stories, let's have a quick look at some headlines.

Apparently Boston Dynamics's Atlas Robot performed full football goal celebrations at the 2026 World Cup. Scientists are eager to study how it is that the sinister implications of a robot's capacity of a human-like movement are so overshadowed by the corrupt financial practices of the football industry as a whole, that we're not sure who's less human. Remember all the slaves who died of heat stroke and heart attacks

building the stadiums in Qatar? Neither does the robot, but it wasn't active then, so it has an excuse. China's secretive Shenlong spaceplane has released yet another mystery object into orbit. At this point, it is less a spacecraft and more a zero-g vending machine for potentous science fiction plots. And meta has announced this week it's laying off thousands of workers while going, quote, all in on AI, Zuckerberg called it streamlining, less streaming, more lying.

And top story this week is gene editing, a biotech founder, has made the case a moral positive case for gene editing human embryos. Robin Cliffon, you sleep in the fetal position. Can you tell us a bit more about this story? Yes, the classic fetal position, sucking my thumb and just jive talking. That's what I do in my sleep. And waiting for the nightmares to come. Yes, this isn't just any story about gene editing and biohacking. It's someone called Kathy Tai, who has history in this area. She's called the biotech Barbie. She's just launched a company called Origin Genomics.

Obviously, it's about gene editing in the embryo, and her pitch, her moralizing pitch, is to try and eradicate all disease and tackle hereditary. problems and conditions. The reason this is interesting is firstly because she's been here before with something she actually called historically a Manhattan genomics. And that was launched in 23 around the launch of the Oppenheimer film, hence where she also called herself the biotech Barbie. She's trying to dovetail on those two pieces of intellectual property. But she's a fascinating person. She left university in Toronto. She's a Chinese-Canadian to take a scholarship from the Peter Thiel scholarship,

which gives people $100,000 to leave university and pursue a scientific avenue. Her previous company was named Manhattan Geonomics, after the nuclear project that obviously was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people. So that's already quite ominous. And that one was liquidated. She started a new one. And she's also, she's called the biotech Barbie, she was also married very briefly for three months to someone called China's Frankenstein, who was a doctor in China who did the first ever gene editing of embryos back in 2050. So there's a huge lot to unpack there.

To be fair, I mean, a three-month marriage with two biotech embryo fiddlers is enough to have at least a thousand babies together. Exactly. If you play your embryo cells right. She is also attempted to genetically create an unicorn out of a horse. Yes. But that doesn't seem to have led anywhere, presumably, because the results were unsuccessful or because they were terrifyingly successful, but there's not enough scientists who are also virgins.

High five, high five, hi-five, hi-five, hi-five, hi-fi. Yeah, not a unicorn in the kind of polyamorous sense, but a literal horse with a fat horn on its head. And she also had a, I think it was called Alley something, that startup tried to genetically engineer pets. She also tried to create a glow-in-the-dark bunny as well. Again, not a euphemism, but a real actual thing she tried to do.

And dragons, I think. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like she's an ideas girl, really, but not necessarily follow-through gal. Can we go back just one second? Because as terrifying as this is, I do have to give the nicknomer's full marks for calling him her ex-husband the Frankenstein of biogenetics because he was a potentially unethical doctor and scientist, not because he was a monster assembled from the parts of other people. That would be Chinese Frankenstein's monster.

Indeed, at least it's a literally well-observed nickname. It's like a little weird to see someone making. an ethical case, right? They're going, well, it's ethical to genetically engineer and gene edit for embryos when they also stand to profit directly from that. It's like, and the last person in China, right, who attempted this, went to jail. It's not legal to, yeah, Frankenstein himself. And so there's not legal to do, but, and now she's doing it and getting all this attention, which is like it's like how Pete Rose must feel about all the today's modern athletes being partners with gambling companies. He must be rolling over in his grave or rolling dice in his grave.

I think it's also one of those things where it seems like you can make a lot of money quite quickly because it obviously dovetails with all these live forever eugenesis tendencies of Silicon Valley and this desire to gene edit and the palatable end of that I think is to say we're trying to eradicate disease. perhaps the real intention is to biotech their own life expectancy so that we can be ruled by tech lords at infinitum, which is what we all want really, isn't it? A powerful tech master to tell us what to do while we bug slurry in 2036. It's also like it's so tough because I totally agree with you. I think that so much of this is being pushed for the benefit of the tech overlords and not for the actual, you know, any actual societal benefits of the science.

And this specifically, this technology is extremely risky because we don't know what kind of affect these gene edits could have. You could eliminate the gene for hereditary cancer, or you could create a new kind of baby whose fingers are teeth and teeth are fingers, which would also be cool, but mostly because Tim Burton's in kind of a rut and he needs some inspiration for a new movie. And you never know, right? I mean, So the thing with some of this playing around with genes in an embryonic form, it could have an impact 30 years later, so it's very hard to monitor. And then maybe you just have to have a subscription to origin genomics,

and they'll currently help deal with your ongoing third limb and sick thigh and unicorn horn if you pay them enough money. Well, yeah, I mean, this is the thing. That's one of the things that we have not yet cracked, is a subscription to your own baby. Capitalism should do something about that. O-A-A-A-S, offspring as a service. Speaking of new species, there's a new species that's come around the old-fashioned way,

which is that scientists have discovered a new species of lizard in the Peruvian Andes, completely unbiahacked, just a straight-up new lizard has dropped. But it measures between six and eight centimeters, and apparently it's got quite a lot of sexual dimorphism. It changes its colors. The females have square-shaped squares on their backs. It keeps saying square-shaped spots on their backs, but we all know spots are not squares. And the men have oblique spots, oblique spots, not oblique squats, oblique spots and white scales.

So this is cool. I'm keen for there to be new lizards. I was getting bored of the number of lizards that they were. Josh Gondelman, you sleep when it's cold. Can you tell us more about this? Yeah, this is really exciting. The scientists discovered this new species of lizard in Peru, which is the most exciting development for biodiversity coming out of Peru since they discovered a talking bear in a red

hat. And the species was discovered up high in the mountains at an altitude of 4,800 meters or for US listeners who refused to learn metric over 15,000 feet up at altitude. And it had gone previously undiscovered because searching for new life at that altitude is, to quote scientists directly, a real pain in the fucking ass and you get all sweaty. So they didn't want to do it previously. The lizards were hard to spot because they were spotted, right, to blend in with the environment. A little piece of wordplay I included for the benefit of anyone listening to the gargle well super duper high. And six to eight centimeters long.

And again, for American listeners who refuse to learn division, that's only two and a half to three and a half inches. And now I understand a little better why the rest of the world measures length in centimeters. I mean, this is the thing. People, when these new species discovered, there's a lot of kind of, oh, why didn't they discover these before? Obviously, these species have been around for ages and people have been in this area. Surely they would have noticed it. And the thing is that it's not about the number of people.

It's that you have to have a very specific circumstance where somebody in that area happens to be an expert on the kinds of lizards you would normally find there and have a sort of an encyclopedic lizard cataloging capacity to, while, upper mountain, be like, ah, that one. So unless you're specifically looking for a new lizard, then you might not find it. You might have seen a new lizard today, and you would never know. So we could be seeing all kinds of unidentified animals,

but just because we're such stupid lay people, I've got no, I've not, no, I might be seeing that dog that I see every day on my neighbor's porch could be a rare new species. Totally. And you would be like, oh, that's not a new lizard. That's just a baby iguana with a ton of swag. And that brings us to your ad section. Your ad section now because you can't be what you can't buy.

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For starters, try making invisible ink out of invisible octop. or a volcano out of the absolute basics of some kitchen supplies and a nearby volcano. That's your ad section for today. More stories. More stories. We are living in a terrible time in which it is very difficult to escape the dopamine rat wheel, the things that are set up for us to enjoy ourselves without satisfying our essential needs to fill our mouths without filling our bellies. And for anyone who has ever just felt like they wanted to buy something but not actually buy it, South Korea has gone crazy for the latest trend. Josh Gondelman, you're cool. Tell us about the cool new thing not to buy.

Thank you. Huge for me. Websites in South Korea are allowing users the experience of online shopping and delivery ordering without actually spending money or receiving goods and services. This version of electronic blue balls is designed to allow users to receive the dopamine hit of browsing the internet without the hit to their bank account of actually purchasing things. And it's all fun in games until you remember that you've wasted half an hour discussing with your partner what you wanted to order for dinner without realizing you still have to cook. These websites provide a service, but they also present a philosophical paradox. If a woman, for example, browses an online retailer that doesn't let her make a purchase, do she still be shopping? Does shopping begin once merchandise is perused or does it not count unless money is transacted? Is shopping in exchange of cash for goods and services or merely the review of possible goods and services? What if you visit a shop fully intending to make a purchase but ultimately are unwilling to do so or unable?

Is that still shopping? theoretical physicists have hypothesized that these websites create conditions for both shopping and non-shopping to occur simultaneously, a paradox they are calling Schrodinger's cart. Thank you. Thank you so much. I will be accepting my Nobel Prize for puns next year when they announce it. This is the thing. If you go to a shop and do not intend to buy anything and don't buy anything, is that the same as going to an art gallery.

You've had a similar experience, possibly. what about a fashion art gallery Yeah, I'd say perusing is definitely within shopping adjacent. I like your comparison there to Blue Balls. Do you think it's a sort of, I mean, not to get so horrendously misogynistic on this podcast here. Do you think you don't get any cathartic release at the end, but you do get to click the car.

Is that right, Josh? Yeah, you get to the point of, you know, hopefully you get that biological feeling of release, though. You just don't get the tangible benefits and losses. You know, your ledger stays even, but chemically your body releases that dopamine. As though you had bought it, the satisfaction of a luxury purchase, much fabled satisfaction of a luxury purchase. I understand this, even though I tend to wear the same stuff every day, just out of a pure lack of imagination. But this is the real question, because we have these two massive trends in sort of consumer psychology happening at the moment. Number one is like your agentic AI. It will do all of your online

shopping for you. You never need scroll or browse again. You can just tell it to do. So are we now going to outsource our fake shopping to AIs who can browse and not buy things on your behalf? Well, here's the thing. If you want the release of dopamine, you have to do the shopping yourself. So if you outsource that to AI agents, what you're really doing is freeing up all of your time so that you can gain pleasure by simply spending your days doing heroin. Yeah, and preferably becoming really good at jazz in the process of doing all that sweet, sweet brown. I think it reminds me of like, you know, as AI takes over and we kind of become passive, atrophied lumps of fat and carbon, we can just, other things become a leisure activity.

So we no longer need to shop, but we can just do it for a laugh because it gives us meaning of a perusing cheese. And so everything kind of becomes a strange piece of immersive theatre. And it reminds me, I don't know if anyone and you guys ever been to Yorkshire, where I grew up. But apart from all the stone walls and gravy and rhubarb thrashing, there's an incredible place called Eureka, which is a science museum in Halifax. And you can go there as a kid and it's the most wonderful thing because it's just got an entirely fake supermarket. And so I think maybe we should extend that for just a kind of adults performatively shopping IRL, whilst our AI agents do it all. for us. Andrew Young

posted virally on Twitter that as artificial intelligence takes over knowledge work. Society will need a gym for our brain in the same way as we have needed

our bodies since having given up physical labour in order to get the calories that we need. We've been required to invent the gym. And I think I saw

about 1,000 people saying, did he just invent books? Or, you know, thinking. But yeah, I mean, this is a real question. This is a real question. How do you make your brain jump through these hoops? Fake shopping on fake websites. It does feel like kind of step one to like six years from now,

we're all in the goo pods from the Matrix. Speaking of the goo pods for the Matrix, now it's time for your reviews. As you know, each week, our guest editors bring in something to a review out of five stars. Josh, what have you brought in for us today? To review today, I brought in showering right before a friend comes over. When welcoming a friend into my living space, I always feel best when not only is my apartment tidy,

but my human body has been recently scrubbed as well. And I still do that manually. I don't have AI agents to clean me. So the best way to accomplish that in my experience is by taking a shower, which is like a bath that does not signify you're experiencing a massive depression. For those reasons, a shower before. our friend comes over simply can't be beat. However, in the extraordinarily likely event that your friend has to use your bathroom upon arriving at your home or soon thereafter, you are welcoming them

into, at best, an everglades like humidity trap, or at worst, the setting from a 90s erotic thriller, steamy mirrors, perspiration unavoidable. It's too sensual a welcome to game night. It's not even suggestive, really, right? There's no innuendo there. It's just excessively bodily and visceral. It's like, like turning on your stereo while your friend is over and having it play exclusively a soundtrack of tennis players midmatch grunts. And also sometimes the floor gets slippery after a shower. So for these reasons, it's kind of a mixed bag. I have to give showering right before a friend comes over, two and a half stars out of five. Yeah. And if you get caught up in the shower and they arrive too early, that's right. You have the terrible possibility of embracing them as they enter and

you be faintly steaming. Yeah. Which is disconcerting. I do think it really does to pass. on how wet you are when you answer the door. For sure. Yeah, and I agree as well that a bath before someone arrives does look like a cry for help. Yeah. You can't let him know that you've been bathing like that right before. It's like an aggressive commitment to self-care that is verging on the problem. Yeah.

But I like that though. I feel kind of fresh just thinking about that actually, Josh. Yeah. I do like a shower right before a friend comes over. It makes me feel energized and like I'm meeting them at my best. and they don't know how slovenly I was. Like, they don't know that I just took off the t-shirt that I slept in and wore for the entire day until the shower 15 minutes before.

Yeah, I think it's a great idea. And I do think that the bath before a friend comes over is A, too relaxing, and B, potentially, if they then use the bathroom, an implicit criticism of how stressful you think they're about to be. Yeah. That's right. That's right. It's like getting a massage right after they leave. Oh, fuck, he lit candles to prep for me. I feel really bad now.

Robin, what have you brought in to review for us? Well, I was actually going to review meeting a horse on a bike, but that would get me on the bike rather than the horse, which would have been really quite remarkable. I went on a cycling holiday in the New Forest, which is a very beautiful piece of Greenland down in the south of the UK. And I feel like, you know, as you move through life, I think last time we talked about the inevitability of becoming a twitcher, a bird watcher as you get older.

I think also the inevitability of becoming a lycra-clad cyclist. It just dawns upon you that that's who you will eventually become, and resistance is futile. So I met a horse, which was incredibly bucolic and relaxing, and the horse was very friendly. Although I did have a lot of, you know, warnings from the 90s from my childhood about how not to approach a horse from behind so you don't get kicked in the dick or face. So I approached it with care. But it's incredibly relaxing as going cycling on a holiday. And then also the most stressful thing you've ever done because you're in this beautiful nature reserve. And then you go on to an A road and have cars coming past you at 65 miles an hour.

And you start frantically questioning your own life choices and mortality. So I think it's an extreme thing to do. Meeting a horse on a bike, speaking of implicit criticism, does the horse look at you like you are subpar or like you're the next leap forward? Yeah, I think the horse is really quite impressed. It's like, oh, you're faster than me. You've got, you're kind of on on fours, but in a different, you've got two things going on, but you've got something else going on as well. They're not confused about whether or not you're bipedal or not, but they're generally, I think, would see the wheel as an evolution to their stumpy or elegant legs, but either way, they're impressed, I think.

Do you think when you meet a horse, when you have a bike with you, do you think the horse relates more to you or to the bike? That's a really good question. I felt a deep degree of connection with that horse from the way that it tickled my hand with its mouth. But I think that may have been projection. And it's always hard to gain. I think I may have been projecting my own emotions onto that horse, actually, and that will require years of therapy to probably unpack, actually.

Much healthier than projecting your emotions onto the bike, though. Yeah. Which you do through grunting. Thank you. And that out of five was? Well, I was going to give the... The bit in the nature is a five and then the A road zero. So again, it's two and a half out of five.

Two and a half out of five. It's a two and a half star sort of week. Which brings us to ghost news now. Apparently, the scientific literature is being polluted by the ghosts of AI models that have left detritus all through our beautiful scientific knowledge, making it almost impossible to get a clean idea. of reality. Robin, your eyes are blurred by ghosts of the past. Can you tell us more about this story? Yeah, ghosts, along with hallucinations, is a more euphemistic language for AI making mistakes.

And Claude in particular has been inventing volcanic experts and then citing them. And then they enter the sphere of the internet and start getting quoted by other sources. And we spiral into a world where academics have been conjured out of thin air. And yeah, I suppose it's indicative of another AI panic. And I suppose comes back to our initial point about the counterpoint to AI, the counterculture, how do we ensure things are real anymore? Well, we're just going to have to actually meet up with people

and pretend shop and go to libraries again and act like it's 1956, but in a good way. That's the main thrust of it. And different, and I don't know if you saw this story, Josh, but different AI models have been hallucinating different things or how being haunted by different things. Yeah. It's, I think ghosts is the wrong term. Like, I like that you said they're conjured out of thin air, right?

Because ghosts used to be alive. That's the thing about a ghost is that they lived and now are no longer alive. These are like if a ghost could exist without a person, which seems unfair. If you could be haunted by someone with no history, that's, they're just doing a, for the love of the game. There's no unfinished business. I also think the names that the scientists have have been repeating because they're being picked up by large language models

and then repeated as if they really exist. And they have names like Marcus Chen and Aris Thorn, which that's a giant red flag to me. Aris Thorn is not the name of a scientist. It's what you call a Dungeons and Dragons character who is sexually attracted to the dragons. And apparently that's sort of by design, because some of the models in earlier training have been asked to be cuter or dorkier, nerdier,

to kind of appeal to their user. And so they started putting in fantastical characters, goblins and gremlins and things like this. Keep conjuring up to the dweeps like us who are using them. Yeah, manic pixie dream hallucination. It's a terrifying future that we're staring into. I got a glimpse into the adorable retro-terrifying past recently. Apparently, the Bogong moths are back on the East Coast of Australia. Now, my childhood was haunted by moths.

And, you know, it is a nostalgic thing to think about opening the door to thousands and thousands of moths. And then they sort of went away and it was environmental degradation and habitat degradation. and climate change, but recently a couple of cooler seasons have meant that the Bogong moths have regenerated and are back where they belong fucking everywhere. They're in your face, then your eye, they're in your breakfast cereal. The personification of dust is back at home. Do you have moths in New York, Josh Gondelman? We do. We have these species called the spotted lantern fly, which is at least moth adjacent. And they are so prevalent that the city will frequently, released PSAs that are like, if you see this, and they're very, they're very kind of striking

to look at. And so if you didn't know this, you might just go, oh, that's like an interesting looking bug. But the city tells you, kill them on site. You have to stomp on them. And if you are with a person visiting New York City and you aggressively stomp out a moth and you're like, I'm just doing my civic duty, you look so bloodthirsty. You look like you're living in the New York city of the Warriors. It is wild. Are they quite big, Josh? I feel like killing a moth, there's a kind of cutoff point where they get a, if they get about bigger than a centimeter and a half or an inch or so, then it feels like a violent act and you look like an absolute asshole. Right, because it almost seems like

you're killing a butterfly at that point, which is so sadistic. And you can see the beautiful patterns and you feel like an ogre crushing a beautiful thing. It's exactly like that. This is got to be, this story has got to be the worst good news I've ever heard. Like, when you picture an endangered species making a resurgence, you think of like a panda or a rhinoceros, not the kind of pest that you would stop to death or electrocute on site, but like a win's a win. Well, they're being, they're tracking these moths, not through any high technology, but by painting small blue dots on them and then asking people to report if they see a moth with a small blue dot on it to trace the path. And apparently the people of Australia are really getting their hearts behind it. Everyone is having this surge of nostalgia. It's like yo-yo's a back or something.

Everyone's quite excited to track the moths and find them in their underpants and all of the joyful things that we used to do as children. Well, I like that. So apparently the collective noun for moths is an eclipse or a whisper, which I find incredibly charming. And am I right in thinking there were so many of these whispering or eclipsing together during the Australian Open and at other times, Alice, that people actually thought it was a weather cloud approaching. So they're a huge, being formed huge numbers.

They do come in in massive numbers. If you do want to get rid of your moths humanely, there's like a hipster trend for getting like, well, a mason jar, putting fairy lights in the bottom of it, and then having a funnel in the top. And so the moths will crawl down, attracted by the light, into the funnel, and will not be able to escape.

And then you get a jar full of moths that you can then release into the wild. Or uses decor for a rustic wedding. This weather event is like such an interesting thing to bring up here because the reason it seems like that the months are rebounding in numbers is that there was extra precipitation this year providing more food for moth larva which like finally a positive climate change story. Sure, the coastlines are becoming uninhabitable but one of the ten plagues has come to life and that's exciting. let's all eat a tasty wool sweater in celebration. And I think, Josh, this means that we have solved your shower problem, which is that if the person who you're inviting around and having a shower before they arrive is a moth,

they are going to be delighted by your moist bathroom. They're like, ooh, look at this spread. You shouldn't have. Are you quite popular with the moth community, Josh, as a shining act of comedy? Yes. I have a lot of woolen sweaters. so like I feel like my closet would be very hospitable to moths. And that brings us to the end of this week's episode of The Gargle.

I'm flipping through the ad section at the back. Robin, where can people find and support your work? Yeah, people can find me at Rogers Velvet Rendezvous, which is a relaxing ambient comedy podcast, and Thinking Deeply, which is a collaboration with Wadham College at Oxford, which foregrounds the humanities at times of technological change. So, yeah, check out those two things. And Josh Gondelman, where can people find it?

support your work. Oh my gosh. I have a stand-o special called Positive Reinforcement on YouTube and a newsletter called That's Marvelous. You can find it That's Marvelous newsletter.com. I'm also on tour. Currently, tickets are on sale for coming up very soon. Irving, Texas, Houston, Texas, San Diego, and Chandler, Arizona. And then in slightly further out, Pittsburgh and Cleveland and Raleigh, North Carolina, excited to come to all those places. And then more in 2027. that's all through the end of the year. You can find me online at patreon.com slash Alice Fraser. Sign up there.

Please sign up at my Patreon. You can sign up for free or for money. I use it mainly as a one-stop shop for all of my stand-up specials. You get my stand-up specials there for free, and I run weekly writers meetings. And I'm just about to reboot the salons where we meet once a week on Zoom and talk about ideas, if that sounds like not a nightmare to you. Otherwise, you can just come over at patreon.com slash Alice Fraser.

And you can see all of my stuff there early and usually, you call free. Some of it is behind a paywall. This is a bugle podcast in Alice Fraser production. Your editor is Harry Gordon. Your executive producer is Chris Skinner. I'll talk to you again next week.