The Gargle - Grief Treatment and the Robot Games!

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

On this week's episode of the Gargle, Alice is joined by Tiff Stevenson and from Edinburgh Fringe, Tom Neenan. As they dive into the biggest news stories in science and tech from the past few weeks! From the science behind the new grief treatment to AI complaints flooding councils. Plus news from China's Robot Games! Alice Fraser: https://www.patreon.com/AliceFraser & https://www.instagram.com/alicefraserhuman/Tiff Stevenson: https://tiffstevenson.co.uk/Tom Neenan: https://www.tomneenan.com/Subscribe to Realms Unknown - a fantasy, sci-fi and speculative fiction podcast from Alice Fraser and The Bugle!https://www.thebuglepodcast.com/news/realms-unknownYou fund what we do!https://www.thebuglepodcast.com/donateProduced by Harry Gordon, with Executive production from Chris Skinner Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are the glossy pull-out section for the audio newspaper for a visual world, and per our filing, a science and technology podcast, judgment pending in a court of law, which court and under what law? You need not know, that is not knowledge for such as you, our listener. So welcome to join us here today. Our first guest has been described by the Royal Society as a promising young man and by the Royal Society's insurance company as a young man who has broken a lot of promises. He was raised during a barn raising instead of a barn,

accident. He can identify any bird by the sound of its regrets. He is currently under observation for blasphemy by three separate competing popes. He is Tom Neenan. Hello, yes. Thank you for joining me. Is this one of the first times that we exist in a world where there can be more than one pope simultaneously? I believe

so. I think there's still at least an ex-popist you're knocking around, which is so exciting. So yes, all of that is true. Yeah, I love a multi-pope situation. It just feels like it gives you options. This is the market. You know, market demand. It increases performance of popes. She has a bachelor but for popes.

Love it. Love it. If they have a Pope monopoly, it's not fair. God is the one who gets to choose and all the rest of them have to turn up with their shiniest red shoes. And then if they don't become Pope, they have to click their shoes together and wish to go home. And then God will send a cyclone. Our second guest arrives as she always does in forefront of an ocean wave of her own making. She once stared into the void and the void blinked. She holds the world record for holding a world record. A trophy she stole from the guy who'd bred the biggest cannibal slug and refused to

return. Somewhere in the Caucasus Mountains, a retreat of silent monastics keep her opinions in a jar to consult before their weekly death matches. She is Tiff Stevenson. Welcome. Hello. Thank you. At last, someone who's introduced me as I wish to be introduced. I'm sick and tired of these. You'll have seen. her on Mock the Week and heard her on the bugle. Yeah, I don't know. Telling me where I'll have seen you is, you know, that's presumptuous at best.

It's pointless. And my jar of opinions is very full. Nice. Some might say overflowing. I don't know what the equation of blue balls for opinions is, but I've got that. We are opening this week's gargle with sad news, which is the death of Dolly Parton.

I know it's a science and technology podcast, but if those boobs weren't science, I don't know what counts. In light of current working conditions, if you are a union negotiator, you could do worse than an anchoring tactic that begins with nine to five. Remember the good old days

when working nine to five felt like exploitation. What a treat. Yeah, I feel very sad about it because not only was she a musical genius and apparently an extremely nice person on every front. When my niece was born in Peckham Rye seven years ago, she got a free book from Dolly Parton. Isn't that amazing in London?

An Australian kid born in London and Dolly Parton was like, you might like reading. Well, I saw, I think it was Courtney Love who described her as the greatest American, and you're like, yeah. Like all the ideals of what you want, if you put them together in a perfect American dolly is it and she's just timeless and she cuts across the political divide and cultural wars and just lands in the intersection of pure

and you can't ever, you know, like from one big, big blue, I can't even say it, big blue blonde icon to another. The only article I didn't appreciate was I saw something, it might be in the New York Times he said she was perhaps best known for her outsized bosom and gaudy outfits. And I'm like, no, no, babe. You don't get to override that with a skill. Also, she knew what she was doing. You're never going to have the joke over Dolly, should I say.

You know, it's, they once said to, oh, there's rumours that you've had your ribs removed because your waist is so tiny. And she went, oh, no, no, it's just that nothing grows in the shade. I was like, you're not going to get the joke over Dolly. Dolly's going to have the joke. And that's why we loved her. It was just like, she's a genius, but pure and kind-hearted

and put a lot of good into the world. And, you know, if you're going to have a hero, that's the kind of hero. If you are going to do celebrity worship, make it around someone who's contributed as much as she has. Well, yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, the way that she performed drag of herself

was, like, simultaneously satire on expectations about women's bodies and also, like, just showing this, like, desperate vulnerability. She was succumbing to these pressures that we all feel about how we ought to appear and this cartoonish idea of womanhood. And so she was like, it was really inviting because we're all like, yeah, you do feel like that.

You do wish you'd look like that. And she did look like that, but in the way that we all know that nobody looks like that. I thought it was very smart. She was a smart lady. You said that obviously this isn't sort of appropriate for a science and technology podcast, but lest we forget, two things she did.

One, she helped fund one of the vaccines during COVID. So if that isn't science, I don't know what is. She also wrote Jolene on the same night that she wrote, I will always love you. So she must have found a way of bending the space time continuum to fit at least 30 years into one night in order to, because no one has that level of genius in one night. So clearly something was going on there

where she like had groundhog days to herself or something to create two perfect songs. So, yeah, she was science all the way through. Also, the first cloned sheep named after Dolly Parton. Yes. Because it was cloned. from a memory cell. Is that right?

Yeah. Did you have to dig to the back of your memories to grab that? Yeah. That just popped out of my like 2000s, 2000s brain. Just like, there's a fact. Hello. Our next story is thematically linked in that it is the new trend for grief-based exercise or emotion-based exercise.

There are now workouts for grief, rage, anxiety, Rage cycling sessions, anxiety, yoga and fitness initiatives that meld sort of therapeutic emotion with the exercise. And apparently they are going off, particularly in the Americas. Tom, Ninen, you enjoy doing bicep curls as self-medication against anxiety. Can you unpack this story for us? Yeah, so, so yeah, sort of fitting for a weird time with some weird emotions flying around. to that being both the death of Daly Parton and the fringe. We, the number of fringe where some of us are right now, it's, yeah, so apparently there are

these, they've developed these different kind of, very specific kind of tailored exercise routines for various emotions and things. I mean, the headline was that they've developed one for unbearable grief, which is, which is a big word, which is a lot to deal with. Here's my little take, which is that I think exercise is always, you know, it floods your body with a lot of, you know, a lot of very positive chemicals that do help. It's never doing the exercise, which is the problem. It is the, it is getting the kit on and going outside, which is the thing. Being halfway through a run is fine, but waking up and doing a run is impossible at the best of times, never mind around unbearable grief. So while I think it is probably good advice, it might be one of those sort of pieces of advice where it's easier to sort of show it works on paper than to actually kind of initiate it in practice, if that makes sense.

But nevertheless, you know, I do think it's promising. And I guess it's a way of kind of healthily medicating yourself out of some negative emotions. But like there's a lot of science that I think works kind of on paper. I'm not going to tell someone who's just lost. their entire family in a, you know, in some awful tornado that, that the only solution is to go for a jog. I am going to, I'm going to sort of let them find their way out of it. Have you thought of getting abs in this difficult time? Exactly. Yeah. So I think it is, it's one of those, I think if you can get its work for you, that's brilliant. But also, hey, we all process emotions in different ways. So maybe also get time. Time is the best healer and then exercise is the second best.

Time under load, more like. Nice. Yeah, I watch jocks on YouTube sometimes to decompress. Do you even bench, Alice? That's my question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, time under load is also my drag name. Tiff, have you, have you, have you, have you, have you, have you, used exercise to express or exude emotions? I've outsourced my emotion to chat GPT.

That's what I read the article and I think the unbearable grief. There were some people talking about losing children. And it was a woman who was like exactly what Tom was saying, kind of going, none of this is going to work for me. I don't want to meet up with a group. I don't want to do any of this. and then found someone locally who was, I think she was an athlete who was a runner who'd also lost a child.

And then they went for a run and then they built this group. And the group is called Emotion. And it took me six reading of the article to realize that was emotion. Because they separated the E. They tricked me. Say it out loud. But yeah, everyone, every single person who sort of joined the group, had resisted the idea.

It's like with depression, you know that just getting out of the house and moving your body will make you feel better, but yet there's such a resistance to doing it, and yet it works every time. So you can do it in the five stages, if you want with exercise for grief.

You can start with denial. So that would be a bit of delusion, like I don't need to go to the gym, followed by steak sandwich. That's the first stage. The second stage is, is anger. So punching things is always good,

like a giant inflatable Trump. You can work on that. Whatever you want. Bargaining, that's where, as Tom briefly mentioned, you get into the gym outfit. You maybe take a selfie in the gym outfit, but you don't go.

I do find this phase is very good for getting a script written. Ah. You know, like I will do everything I can to avoid going to the gym. So to the point that I'll actually sit down and do some work. So, and then there's depression, and that's where you realize that you get to the gym, you realize that men will hog the weights and the steam room and the sauna and that you've paid $120 a month for this.

And you're probably not going to go that much. And then the acceptance is you do some squats, you go for a run, you immediately feel better and then you forget about it for a full six months. So that's the five stages of exercise that you can use for any other emotion you're struggling with. Yeah, I mean, what would you prescribe if someone came to you with an emotion, Tom? An emotion-based workout. Yeah, so if someone comes up to me and they've got Onwee, I suggest a walk. Basically, you start at the southernmost tip of the United Kingdom and you just carry on walking to the northernmost tip of Scotland.

But by that time, you'll either experience complete on-wee and sort of completed it and finished it. or you'll just be so tired you want to sleep. That is my advice. Well, I don't have on wee. I have a toddler, so I have wee on me. What I've been doing is because I only have a limited amount of babysitting and I'm at the fringe. So I don't have time to go to the gym with the babysitting time that I have

is I have been squatting my children and chest pressing them, which turns out to be an incredibly effective workout because they are ruthless personal trainers. And I'm completely incapable of saying no to them when they're like, ha ha ha again, mummy. So I'm going to like, I'm going to failure in a lunge with a two-year-old strung around my neck. It's quite fun. Mm.

Fun. And now it's time for your ads, your ad section now because you can't be what you can't buy. And this part of the show is brought to you by no men, noem inadequate and naming a species for someone you love. Do you remember how you used to be able to claim a star? Well, this is a naming service where you get to a name. immortalize a loved one in the annals of scientific record. We just discovered that there are a fuck ton of as yet unnamed Beatles and shit,

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revealed his new business coming out of what he calls stealth mode, which is the hardware service where they're trying to build home butlers, has now become a software. service where you get paid to do your housework with a camera on your head, thereby training domestic robots into the future. I assume they're paying people out of venture capital money. I assume that there are serious privacy concerns that they have not contemplated in full. I assume that there will be lots of, let's be honest, men who are ordering these head cameras and using them to film themselves joking off. It is called index.

It's called the largest and most diverse robot data set in the world. And I assume they will then sell that on to fucking everyone and their aunt. Tiff Stevenson, you've been replaced by a robot. Can you unpack this story for us and film it while you do it? Yeah. I might send a robot out to do my gigs. Collect that sweet. I see that as being the future actually.

out my clone or just my robot to gig to an audience of robots. Robots stand up. Maybe that's the future. We're just outsourcing everything else. We're outsourcing our personalities, our, you know, sports, all of it to the robots. It's supposed to be the jobs we go on creativity. Everything's going the way of it. So just like let them have it at this point.

Look, I feel so torn about this because on one hand, I think we should have, like it wouldn't if we're going to have technology to this degree in our lives, then maybe, yeah, it should be vacuum cleaners and stuff that's going to fold your laundry for you. And wouldn't that be a treat? But if the only way through there is via them filming your penis, your personal penis, I don't feel good about that as the root to technological utopia is technological dystopia.

It feels like you can't have one without the other. Tom? Michael McIntyrabyte. Sorry, that was, I just had to get that up my head. was, yeah, so like, so this is the main thing, which is I just don't like the idea of any company being in stealth mode. I find still, I find the whole thing of like just sort of quietly collecting lots and lots of footage, quietly collecting lots and lots of data, maybe not even fully disclosing, because I guess you don't have to if you're in stealth mode, why you're doing it

or what you're up to. I, you know, like if I was in stealth mode as a private citizen and I was collecting data, say, on people, that's, I think, a crime that I would be committing. So, I know that obviously, you know, it's always one rule for us, normal for corporations. But, yeah, I don't think any company that I guess is like an actual registered company should be allowed to be in stealth mode and not really reveal what its ambitions are, especially when those ambitions involve filming you in your own house and invading your own privacy. I know it is technically, if you've asked to have one of these, you are, it is with, in, it's in terms of consent, but you don't know what you're consenting to. So that's quite strange, isn't it?

Yeah, it is strange and upsetting. And if the meta glasses have taught us nothing else, it's that people don't turn off their cameras when they stop doing the thing that they are meaning to be filming and that there are probably underpaid men in, let's say, the subcontinent who are having to look at, again, your personal penis. and not having a good time with it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, look, I leave my phone torch on. There is no way I would remember to turn off my head camera that's helping me fold laundry when I go to do a poo. I'm just saying. It's like on set when you've got, you know, a mic pack,

you're always pissing for a crew of like 30 people. you're very lucky if you remember to like hold in a fart you're like oh yes they can hear everything my stomach's fumbling I'm burping this is this is you're getting the full smorgasbord you get in the full tif steam it's an experience also there's a clue in this because isn't the mind didn't you say the man's name was

Ardcock Brett Adcock is Brett Adcock which does sound like a character from Fizz magazine. That is, he's giving his clues already about what his ambitions are.

Yeah. It does sound like normative determinism. It also sounds like a sort of his cheesiest chat-up line would be something like, you look happy, would you like to add cock? That is solid.

That is solid. I'm not saying it will work on me, but there's someone it would work on. For sure. Now, it is time, for your reviews. As you know, each week we ask our guests to bring in something to review out of five stars. Tom, Nina, and what have you brought in for us? So, I'm up at the fringe, which maybe explains a sort of slightly poorer quality sound that you're experiencing. A apology

to that, but I was reminded of reviews that, you know, reviews happened constantly at the fringe. And I was reminded about 10 years ago there was a play near my venue about the scientist, Schrodinger. And what this play was able to do at the end of the month is basically collect all the reviews, every single one of which began with a variation on the line of before I saw this play, it was either a one star or a five star play. Every single reviewer did that. And so I would say, like, in terms of, you know, I think criticism is a skill. And I certainly, you know, I think that there are people who do it very well. Some not so well.

But I do think that, yeah, creativity and ingenuity in criticism is always welcome. So I am going to give criticism three stars because that is the most annoying review that you can give a critic. But yes, I was just reminded about, reminded that everyone had the same idea and also then had the goal to probably review other shows and say that they weren't very original. So, yeah, that's my memory. Yes, I think that critics in Edinburgh specifically, because this is the thing, heaps of people are just getting free tickets in return for reviews for various websites,

and then you have professional critics. But I think that if you are reviewing, let's say, in any kind of meaningful or serious way, you should have a poster with your face on it, posted around among the show posters, and you should have reviews of your reviews by the people who have received the reviews, because I have previously received five-star reviews

that I would call three-star written in terms of level of quality. And also, you know, less good reviews where I've been like, yeah, fair cop, you know, that's well written. It's crazy. I don't even know, I've said before, but I believe this to be true. Like, when British people watch shows, we say, our expectations, like Americans go in excited, going, this is going to be awesome. And British people go, this will be shit.

So, and anything that exceeds that level of expectation is a bonus. So I don't think we should have a star rating. I think we should use the Bristol stool chart. What type of shit you're going to get. Is it going to be lumpy? Is it going to be hard to, are we dealing with liquid tonight? We're hoping for like a three or four, you know, like a smooth. like a snake.

And that's how the reviewing system should be, I think. Get rid of the stars. Yeah. You just want painless. You want quick and painless is like the ideal one beyond there. Yep. One flush. Lovely.

Tith, what have you brought in to review out of five stars? Well, I'm down on the South Coast, so I'd like to review the sea. Headline is very watery, can recommend. especially if you want a salt max, which is a new thing I've invented, which is normally where you eat three packets of Chris in a row get really swell. But you can just do this in an easier way.

You can just walk into the sea and just absorb that salt. Get your salt levels up, get salt maxing. I didn't enjoy, here's some things I didn't enjoy, the presence of a man on a jet ski. No one needs to mow the sea, and that's what that felt like. For the swimmers around.

It just feels like a man. and going along mowing the sea backwards and forwards. Also, there was music playing out of the jet ski. So I find that like Euro, like Euro beats, like Euro club music. I was like, no, this is unfair. Not in Dorset. But here's his things I did enjoy. I did enjoy witnessing a man in his, I'm going to say late 70s, early 80s,

walk out of his house in budgie smugglers across the car park and then just dive straight into the water which was confident and impressive and I'm like that's the life that's what you want you want to get to that point I think when I'm in my 70s early 80s I want to walk out of my house and dive into the sea that's what I need that you will need to wear a swimming costume if you've not if you've not been to the sea before and you want to swim in it you have to wear a swimming costume and if you are a woman people will have opinions on what that should look like and whether you are showing too much or not enough skin. And unless you can swim sort of like a Victorian with some kind of box-like curtain around

you, which is my preference. I've got my own private beach. Overall, a positive experience, five out of five beach dependent. Five stars. Yes, I think, I think if somebody's in a jet ski playing music, you should be allowed to go out with a harpoon. Not on another jet ski. Like, keep it fair.

You have to be in the ocean. but you should be able to Full battleships I think you should be allowed in a battleship to take out a jet ski Eurobeats pumping out of it This is the problem I think they are sort of the epitome of something

which is that they look like if you were on them they would be so much fun but in order to be on them you need to have quite serious disregard for anyone else around You've got to have a guy with like questionable tattoos who looks like

doesn't truly understand consent. That's normally when you go on holiday and you go on a jet ski. I have done a jet ski once. I did rent, but you go out. I've got no problem with it. If you go out, you just need to not hug the shoreline, which is what this guy was doing. You just go out, out, out. And then you're not in anyone's way. And then you can cut up and down. Maybe he hadn't invented navigation yet and therefore needed to keep the shoreline insight. was my big beef with Odysseus. Oh, that would have made the Odyssey way more interesting. If you're on a jet ski.

Yeah, yeah. Made from his own bones. And instead of a Trojan horse, it's just a massive can of monster that they wheel in as like a treat. Now it's time for, apparently the thing that's been holding back people who are complaining to councils all along has been time,

and energy, apparently, councils and other places are being flooded with AI complaints. This is the future that technology has served us. There's been a surge in AI complaints to schools, councils, anywhere that has a complaints form, apparently, is just being absolutely bombarded with people who, I guess, were annoyed, but not annoyed enough to put any effort in. Tom, Nean, you like a complaint? Can you tell us more about this story?

Yeah, I mean, I'm struggling. I don't like it at all. I'm very, I'm very much an AI skeptic. But, like, when they, well, you know, when there's things where they say complain to your MP and then they sort of give you a template and they say, here's the template for you to kind of say, here's what you should say in order to complain to your MP about a certain piece of legislation that you might not agree with or something else. Is that not, I mean, my only concern is, if.

If there are people behind the complaints and if the complaints actually happens, then absolutely, you know, that I think that is okay. Even if people are using AI to do it because I think maybe not everyone has the wherewithal, the, you know, the kind of knowledge of what you need to put in an email as a complaint to get a response because some people might just like fire out something just being like, my bins would not say or something. But it just like, it's not, it doesn't trigger the right words that are probably, you know, meant to initiate. a response. So I, as long as there are people at the end of them, I don't mind. If it is just like bots are suddenly, you know how they tend to like hallucinate. If they're hallucinating like late collections of bins and things like that, well then we're already in a dystopia and a council is bogged down fixing problems that don't exist. But if people are using sort of AI to complain to their counsel on behalf because of legitimate issues, I'm like, oh, that's

okay, isn't it? But please, Alice, prove me. wrong and do so in triplicate and send it also, says CC in my local MP as well. Well, I think the problem is that the only, the cost of doing instead of a one-page complaint, generating a 27-page complaint with references and citations and so on in quotations is basically zero to the user, obviously, it's larger to the environment. And actually, to the AI companies who are now basically, paying money to their users because they haven't figured out a way to make the models profitable yet.

But especially with China, keep showing up with models that are more or less just as good as the leading US models but are being offered for free for reasons that are potentially political and, you know, in terms of who's going to have the global influence over a world that is controlled by AI. But we don't need to get into that because we're talking about science and not politics and those two things are never connected. But yeah, I think it is basically that people who might otherwise have thought about sending a message and now sending a message people who might otherwise have sent like handwritten, angry note

that was four lines long are now showing up with documents and citations. And it reminds me of the promise in the law, which was of the paperless courtroom, that everything would be able to be digitally rendered. And instead it meant that what was happening was people were printing out, thousands of pages of emails, many of which were duplicates and wheeling them into court on massive trolleys. So it feels like, yes, this AI promising to make less work has in fact made more work for everyone. Tiff? I, listen, if we're British, if we're going to democratise one thing, it's going to be complaining. I'm here for it. I do. I do think it allows people

to, it opens up access because people get ripped off. People get ripped off. People get. done over and they don't know how to have the recourse and I often feel like it's people with money that are able to afford someone to represent them or represent themselves. So I think this is, I think this is a really good thing. If we could do it with queuing as well, if we can work out away, we could take all that is British and combine it into one democratised. I don't know how do the councils know? Is it because the letters open, dear council, I would like to play a significant role in shaping, it is important to note that in today's fast-paced world,

a testament to shed a light on my bin collection. Apparently those are the most weeks phrases in AI, and the word delve. If the word delve is in there, let's delve into this. It's probably AI written. But I don't mind it. I don't mind, but I still think there are people who will be kept out of it, you know, like, you know, older people

who haven't got to embrace the technology yet, although my mum is watching a lot of those AI fruit soaps. So maybe, maybe she'll get round to learning how to just fire it all into chat, GPT. You know, when she's raging at something on telly, I once was on the receiving end of like 10 minutes about a show she didn't like. And I was like, write them a letter because I have a day to be getting on with it. And that was, that wasn't anything that had been done to her. that was just some entertainment that she didn't agree with.

She was like, well, maybe I will. She got really annoyed at me. I was like, write in my letter. Stop telling me. Remember when fruit soaps were just something that you got at a fancy B&B? Oh, yes. Lush used to do them. Lush, not Lush, not Lush, the body shop.

The body shop used to have a fruit soap and it smelled of the fruit and it was shaped in the fruit. And I can't remember if it came on a rope, but it was one of the most exciting thing. about getting a bit of pocket money. Yeah, tiny, tiny little ones that look like a lemon or like grapes or yeah. Flashbacks to fruit soaps. And now they're like weird blueberries with tits trying to like suggestively like. Seduce a banana.

Is it fair to say that you can complain to your council using AI about everything apart from lack of water resources and the massive data centre that's just been put over your local park. Those are basically the only things that there's hypocrisy there. That brings us to the end of this week's episode of The Gargle. I'm flipping through the ad section at the back. Tiff Stevenson, have you got anything to plug? I do have things to plug.

I am going to be doing a little run of European gigs at the end of this week. So on Saturday I will be in Rotterdam with my new show at Club Harg. And on Sunday I will be in Luxembourg at Carlito's Comedy Club. day I will be in Brussels. So if you want details for those, you can check them out on my Instagram or just Google Tiff Stevenson in any of those countries and it will pop up a link. So Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg, check those out. That's exciting. And Tom Neenan, where can people find you?

I'm not sure when this comes out, but we're nearing the end of the fringe, but I would say if you want to find out what I'm up to, probably best to follow me on Instagram at TP Neenan on Instagram for things like a few people have got in contact about commissions because my show

is about art but if I'm doing sort of London runs of my shows and things like that then probably find information there. Wonderful and you can find

me online at Patreon.com slash Alice Fraser It's one-stop shop you can sign up for free in there and it's just a mailing list if you subscribe for money you can join my writer's meetings

which I run every week twice a week if you are wanting to work on anything and I also run regular salons where we just have a chat about ideas that's patreon. slash Alice Fraser. And otherwise, this is a bugle podcast and Alice Fraser production.

Your editor is Harry Gordon. Your executive producer is Chris Skinner. I'll talk to you again next time.