The Glass Cannon Podcast - Cannon Fodder 12/11/24

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

Troy and Joe get together for their last episode of this most recent evolution of Fodder and give it a send off worthy of its two-year run. The guys share news of exciting new streams, breakdown the m...ost recent GCP, review Professor Eric's most recent insights in We Are Stupid, and open some Listener Mail that leads into a deep discussion of when and why we should even roll dice in the first place. Happy Holidays, and we look forward to sharing the next phase of the Glass Cannon Network with you! For now, though, the weekly Fod with Troy and Joe dips below the horizon.Thanks for watching, thanks for listening, and don't leave town! Submit your questions for Listener Mail at https://forms.gle/v5huj25dkVSmkbLEA Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/Fq9PkYQYScs Access exclusive podcasts, ad-free episodes, and livestreams with a 30-day free trial with code "GCN30" at http://www.jointhenaish.com. For more podcasts and livestreams, visit glasscannonnetwork.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:00 You are listening to the Glass Cannon Network, the premier source for role-playing game entertainment. Welcome to Cannon Fodder, a behind-the-scenes look at the Glass Cannon Network. ["The Glass Cannon Network Theme"] Yeah! What is going on everybody? Welcome back to Cannon Fodder. It is Wednesday, December 11th, 2024, and I'm your old pal Joey O'Brien.
Starting point is 00:00:42 And I'm Troy, end of an era! LaValley. End of an era, another era of the Fod, the Fod which over its long, long life has taken many different shapes and forms. This current rendition of Fodder ends today. It's very sad, we talked about it last week. Is it? And, well it's not sad for you. it's less work, less on your plate.
Starting point is 00:01:07 But last week we had the Philly show. Amazing time, so amazing to be live in Philly, great Christmas show every year. And to at that show see so many people come up and be like, WTF with the FOD, man! I love the FOD, what are you doing with the FOD? It was great. I feel sad, but it was also like so nice to see such an outpouring and immediate reaction of people that are going to miss this exact format, this exact style. But, you know, fear not, as we said, the FOD has taken many different forms in its life and it will continue to evolve. You know, talking about rules, talking about Pathfinder, talking about our games, talking about GMing, it's all going to come out in different ways. It'll be out there.
Starting point is 00:01:49 Don't worry. VOD 7.0. Yeah, no, it was good to get some feedback from our most ardent, loyal supporters. You and I were talking about it even in the dressing room after the meeting, being like, all right, well, maybe this changes how we want to think about X, Y, and Z. So yes, fear not. Fear not. There'll be something coming, but we got to make some changes because we've got a hell of a year coming up next year and we need every available moment to make sure that we deliver what you really love. Content.
Starting point is 00:02:19 Content. Yeah, there's going to be, like we said, there's there's always different evolutions of this show from from when it began. And this particular evolution where we focus less on guests more on you and I just talking about the business and Gatewalkers. This one began January 4 2023. So it started just last year. We did two full years basically of almost every week. You and I getting together.
Starting point is 00:02:46 If you remember the impetus for it was like, let's get back on FOD and talk about building up to campaign two, talk about building the studio, talk about putting the project together, uh, from scratch. And that was fun. That was fun. Um, but now we do feel a little like we're in a groove where we're just talking about the same show every week, where we can't really go into depth on other shows. and that was fun, that was fun. But now we do feel a little like we're in a groove where we're just talking about the same show every week,
Starting point is 00:03:07 where we can't really go into depth on other shows because like we don't know who's caught up, who isn't, et cetera. So we're gonna just move some of this stuff about Gatewalkers, our feelings on it, our feelings on the rules and the moments and everything into Gatewalkers. We're gonna spend, you know,
Starting point is 00:03:22 talk a little bit more about it in show. So you'll see some more of that in there. But yeah, this current rendition of Fodder has served its purpose and is gonna get sunset for now on the network. And we're gonna move it into, like we said, a few different things that you'll learn about soon. Speaking of which, I mean, it's almost state of the nation time, Troy. People are getting excited. The word on the street is you're going to be dropping some big news in a couple weeks. Are you feeling good on this? Are you feeling good about this deadline, about having this happen before the holidays?
Starting point is 00:03:55 I think it's going to happen next Wednesday night. Not a couple weeks. Next Wednesday the 18th. One week? Yeah. I guess we'll go prime time. We'll do it at 8 p.m. Eastern. Stay tuned to where that's going to happen.
Starting point is 00:04:08 Probably Twitch. That's where we tend to do our live streams. I guess there's a chance it would be YouTube, but it'll probably be Twitch, the main feed. And yeah, some big, big bombs I'm going to drop, talk about next year. I wanted to do it at the end of last year. It didn't happen. We ended up doing it in the beginning of the winter or spring. I can't remember when the hell I did it.
Starting point is 00:04:26 But now I feel like it's just a lot of question marks and a lot of big stuff happening beginning of the year. So I want to get the word out and get people mentally and emotionally prepared for pretty exciting 2025. Pretty exciting 2025. We're very excited about it, but we can't go into any more detail here. So stay tuned next Wednesday instead of a fodder. That night live you're going to get a State of the Nation from Troy all about what is
Starting point is 00:04:51 coming our plans for 2025 for the Glass Cannon Network, the 10th year of the Glass Cannon Network, Glass Cannon Network, which is amazing. So I can't believe it. It's so wild. We got some news today, of course, we'll talk about what's coming up content wise on Twitch. We got a lot of fun stuff this week on Twitch. We will also get into the episode. And some we are stupid. So great write up from Professor Eric, and then we'll finish off with a nice little listener mail and the classic fashion. We'll have some really good GM conversation in that listener mail. So let's kick it off. Sorry. You hope? I hope. Yeah. I never really planned it. Never know what
Starting point is 00:05:32 Troy is going to say. Let's talk about Twitch real fast. We got a great lineup this week on Twitch. If you're listening to this on Wednesday morning, then you could still, you still have time to catch it today, Wednesday, the 11th at 12 noon Eastern time, we're going to stream a little world of Warcraft. A few of us are jumping on a, they had a big, what they called a 20th anniversary refresh. So what they did was they opened up brand new servers that have no players on them and they all start there
Starting point is 00:06:00 at level one on the same day, everybody. And so in order to celebrate this, I was a big Warcraft guy back in the day. We decided to get Sydney into it, who had never played, get Kate into it, who I think had played, but hadn't in a long time. And Mary Lou was really the one that got me to do it in the first place.
Starting point is 00:06:20 So very possible we're going to have Sid, Kate, Mary Lou and I on at noon today on Twitch. So hoping that comes together. Kate's like, ah, work might come up. Mary Lou's like, ah, I might have a thing happen, but we're all going to try to be there. Regardless, Sid and I will be there because we're committed to the Warcraft. So that's going to be really fun. I hope you enjoy that. Then we're going to play a slightly different, a non-MMO, much more story focused RPG on Friday. We continue our Wildermyth adventure. These have been amazing streams.
Starting point is 00:06:53 People have been turning out in droves to watch them. The ladies have been fantastic. That's going to be at 12pm Eastern on Friday. That's me, Cyd, Mary Lou and Paula are playing in this ongoing campaign story in Wildermyth. That's 12 p.m. on Friday for two hours, followed right up after that at two o'clock, Troy's going to hop on and McD for a little gloom haven. So I'm doing back to back on Friday. Oh, it feels like extra life.
Starting point is 00:07:19 It's going to be so fun. Friday at noon, Wildermyth, Friday at two, gloom haven. We beat the mission last week. So exciting. And this Friday, we're going to move on to a new scenario. So we'll see what's ahead for our heroes in Gloomhaven. You and I, this was the highlight of our literally 90 total minutes we got to spend at Pax Unplugged this weekend.
Starting point is 00:07:44 We got to demo Gloomhaven second edition at the Cefalo Fair. From one of the designers and he said we're the first people to ever play it globally, which was insane. Like the box, the printed box arrived for them the day before or two days before. No one had played it yet and we just kind of stumbled in. I had an hour at the con. You got to go back on Saturday, but like I had like an hour, hour and a half. We walked around a little bit and we're like, you kept asking me, do I want to play a demo?
Starting point is 00:08:10 I'm like, no, I don't want to do any of that. Then we saw a big sign for Frost Haven. I was like, all right, if they have a demo for Frost Haven, I'll do that. We rolled up to this guy and you're like, you demo? He's like, yeah, come on, sit down. You're like, is it Frost Haven? He said, no, no, this is second edition. It just came up.
Starting point is 00:08:26 We just, I don't know how we stumbled into this and we didn't have to play with any randos, which was the best part. But once we sat down and started playing, like the list just started filling up for the whole day. I don't know what happened. Like nobody showed up to PAX right away on Friday. Last year it was like insanity.
Starting point is 00:08:42 It was empty in there at 1030 a.m. on Friday. Empty. There were so many open demo tables. I was like, come on, play a demo with me. You're like, I'm not doing that. And I'm just like, and then we go by Glemhaven and you're like, all right, I'll consider this because it's a great game. And yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 00:08:58 So I mean, obviously lots of people have demoed Glemhaven second edition. Lots of people have played around with prototypes. This designer was like, you two are the first to play the first actual finished printed copy that came off the factory floor yesterday. And so we were like, he was literally popping out the pieces for like difficult terrain and stuff like that and obstacles. It was just one of those awesome experiences you can only get going to a con. Like you gotta go to a con if you've never been to one. They're the best and that's why.
Starting point is 00:09:28 That's all I got for news. If you don't have anything else, I'm going to hop into the app today because lots to discuss. Yeah, no. Everything's coming out next week in the state of the nation. All the news that's fit to print. Okay, great. Well, let's get into the episode. Episode 62 of Campaign 2, chunky one, long one, lots of early roleplay stuff and characters discussing how to move forward with the options that we have. We talked about laying out options last week about how a GM kind of, you know, you can choose to narrow down the sandbox a little bit for your players, or you can let them have a choice of everything. It can be you know, there's good and bad on both sides. But in this case, we feel like we had three options, and we settle on going
Starting point is 00:10:13 to the market. But before we actually get going and start exploring, we, Sydney really wants to do this ritual. And we teased a little bit of the ritual last week on fodder talked about some of the we are stupid stuff that Professor Eric laid out the DCS and whatnot. I was a little frustrated by the process. But I'm not going to talk about it now. I'm going to talk about it in a couple minutes in we are stupid. We'll reanalyze rituals as a whole. Professor Eric has some really interesting thoughts on that. As for Asta, she has her dream. She has entered the club, the club that has had- Dream club.
Starting point is 00:10:54 The dream club. I can't even remember if this has been discussed on fodder, but I want you to talk about as much as you are willing to talk about about the dreams. Like, how are you determining, like when it's time for a character in this adventure to experience their dream? Well, just when I kind of like, when I feel like it, I think that's probably most campaigns would have had everybody to have their dreams by now.
Starting point is 00:11:24 Is there a guide in the book? Does it give you suggestions for how to pace it? Does it say they all get them within the first week, but you're doing them out like... They give a suggestion, yeah. I knew I wanted, you know, when looking at the first episode, the premiere, I didn't see a clear ending because it starts with an investigation and unlike Giant Slayer, you didn't have that Roderick is dead moment. You know what I mean?
Starting point is 00:11:49 It's much more open-ended. So I was like, let's see – let's pace this out. I feel like I could have a dream in my back pocket that would be a great way to end episode one. But after that, I just kind of – I wanted to feel out the characters a little bit more, get a sense of like who they were, what their hopes and dreams and fears were so that I could come up with something and play upon it in the moment. With Asta and Barnes, they have lagged behind because they're second characters, they're
Starting point is 00:12:24 new characters. They're new characters, you know? So after Lucky went down, I was like, oh, should have given her a dream. Didn't work out. It wouldn't really help. I think the powers are kind of like— You could have saved her life. But yeah, I just—after we finished book one, I was like, all right, I got to start getting the rest of these dreams out, give people their awakened powers.
Starting point is 00:12:45 Because it's, you know, it's their third level feats. It's much more juicy when you get them early like you and Kate did, I think. Well, Skid got his – Skid got his – he got his on Castroville. Yeah, on Castroville. Yeah, I just kind of paced it. And a lot of it has to do with like, all right, we've been in a slog. This is a good chance for a dream. But you also have to have that rest, you have to have that
Starting point is 00:13:08 sleep. And guys don't rest a lot. I'd love to see how many times you've rested since the beginning of the campaign. Because that dictates to when I can have they can always be a daydream, right. But it's really supposed to be a dream dream. What I mean, it is pretty powerful. Like you said, third level feed, I believe you said is what you would you're getting at first level. I got that at the end of the pilot episode. So does the book have any recommendations as to when should it be doled out in at first level? Is that sort of what they're suggesting? I think they want you to I'd have to go back and look at it. But I think they assume that you're getting it all pretty quickly. By first level.
Starting point is 00:13:47 Yeah. But like the way we play, it really came down to the resting. I didn't want to do two dreams at once. I wanted them to be like good story moments for the show. It got to a point where like it just didn't make sense to do it or you guys would rest and I didn't have anything like, I hadn't thought about it or prepared. So now it seems a little after the fact,
Starting point is 00:14:09 but you know, it's fine. When did you, did you know before the episode started that she was gonna have her dream? I thought about it on the drive in. I was like, I should give Asta a dream today because I could feel like a rest was imminent. I was like, all right, this is a good point. Right.
Starting point is 00:14:28 We were in the camp, the Smiling Wolves camp. And we went through all these fights like, let's extend this role play and character building as long as possible. So I was like, I should maybe do a dream for – well, I was like, Asta and Barnes, they're the ones that don't have this yet. And then I thought like, oh, I, I have an interesting idea for Austin. Let's see what happens. Then just kind of-
Starting point is 00:14:48 Did you write anything down or did you kind of wing it in the moment? No. I just kind of winged it in the moment. I think I wrote something down for yours and even Kate's, but I didn't for Buggles and I didn't for this one. When you're driving in to the studio and listening, obviously to Christmas music, are you thinking about these horrifying dream nightmares and listening to Christmas music?
Starting point is 00:15:17 Or do you like have to have no music on in order for you to focus on Gatewalkers when you're driving in? Well, I try to listen to a book on tape as much as possible but Christmas music has changed that because I feel guilty if I'm not ingesting as much Christmas music as possible. So I'll listen to like a chapter and then go to Christmas music. When I'm listening to the book on tape, I'm a psychopath. If I miss a sentence, I got to go back and listen to it again. So I can't do anything else.
Starting point is 00:15:44 But yeah, when I'm listening to music, I don't have to listen to mood music to write a horrifying nightmare. Cool. Good to know. So then we head out and there is what I consider to be at this stage, in retrospect, an extremely important survival check. Brother Ramia says he's's gonna guide by the stars using his survival. He is the best in survival in the party Yet, I think I rolled a natural two or something like that was a bad roll I wrote I told you the result and you said okay
Starting point is 00:16:17 well, like you keep getting distracted by what you see that the buildings like they're They're not lining up with what they should be and you're not paying enough attention to the stars and ignoring the tricks that are happening in front of you, the illusions, whatever they may be. And this leads us, I don't know for a hundred percent certain that you don't get this encounter if you pass a survival check, but I suspect you do. This encounter is completely insane. Out of nowhere, a flying freaking cat comes out and just starts annihilating the entire
Starting point is 00:16:53 party. Brother Ramius goes down immediately, one hit. Asta goes down and it is extremely deadly and now we're looking down the barrel of some sort of potential death throw. We were arguing about it after the episode. Is it going to be a death throw? Matthew says, I hope it's a death throw or something like that. I'm thinking a death throw is going to kill Asta. He's saying a death throw is better. I'm like, what else could it be? He believes it might be another form of the creature or something like that, and that
Starting point is 00:17:25 it's still alive and now unhittable or something. And so I'm super stressed out about this. So without going into too much detail, obviously we're still mid encounter. It feels a little bit insane to me. Am I crazy? I mean, Professor Eric's first line in We Are Stupid is the combat had horrible dice rolls for the players. Now, it's so long ago that I don't really remember like so well the dice rolls per se. I just remember feeling completely incapable
Starting point is 00:17:59 of doing anything against this creature that could leap like any distance and attack as an action? Is it one action? The pounce, yeah, pounce lets you move and attack. But I think that's a two action. No, I can't remember. That wouldn't make sense. It was, yeah, I think it's move and attack as one action. It's just wild.
Starting point is 00:18:18 And obviously it's hitting us all the time and critting like crazy. Do you think that this is kind of a brutal encounter for a random encounter or do you think we just rolled bad and we're over exaggerating? I mean, I rolled extremely well. You guys rolled extremely poorly. That's always shitty. That's all that comes to be the theme for the Gatewalkers campaign, which is why you already have two people dead.
Starting point is 00:18:44 I don't... I try to shy away from thinking of it as a random encounter. campaign, which is why you already have two people dead. I try to shy away from thinking of it as a random encounter. It certainly feels like a random encounter. I think there's plenty of that in these piezo APs. They're to get you back to the feel of the original D&D, which was way more random encounters and you had to build a story around it. I think that you guys were leaning on, your frustration was kind of being like, and this is a random encounter, but it's not.
Starting point is 00:19:09 I think there's something interesting here. It's like, why is this creature, no one ever asked like, why is this creature here? Like, how is this tie into the weird stuff that's going on here? And there is a reason that it's there. It's just, yeah, these single enemy encounters when I roll rocks and you guys just can't roll your way out of a paper bag. There's no amount of bottle caps that are going
Starting point is 00:19:30 to save you from that. You know what I mean? Yeah, okay, some rerolls might get you a few more hits, but at the end of the day, I just, I mean, I'm just rolling 17, 18, 17, 18, 17, 18, hitting on third attacks like left and right. It's really hard. I know. You read out your number after a third attack and I have to be like, is that minus 10? And you're like, it is minus 10. It's a 27 to hit.
Starting point is 00:19:56 What in the hell? Yeah, it's just been wild. And I think that you'll see as we move on past This version of FOD that will we'll talk about it more on Gatewalkers We'll definitely talk about it more on the episode about will go into more detail on the creature and And our feelings in the combat and all that kind of stuff. But right now it just definitely feels Like it's a TPK again, you know what I mean? And I hate throwing that around every fucking week on Counter Fighter, but it really does feel
Starting point is 00:20:29 like when your healer is instantly crit to dying too, and no one else really has the ability to heal, it's just so deadly. And the reason is partially because of the build of this creature. It can just leap to the back line, to the healer, and insta-crit and take them down. I remember this during the building phase of Brother Ramius. I remember talking to Professor Eric about Brother Ramius and him saying the single most
Starting point is 00:20:55 difficult thing that clerics have to deal with in the early phases before they get powerful enough is their low AC. And specifically, it's that they will get crit more is like you know everybody's gonna get hit but they will get crit more than the higher AC party members and that is so deadly crits are deadly in the game and you can see it how it's unfolding and then you know like yeah I tend to be protect myself stay back stay away most of the time that works. Brother Ramious very rarely is in this position. This thing, the pounce, deadly.
Starting point is 00:21:31 So deadly. One action, move up to its speed and do an attack at the end of the movement. And if it began hidden, it remains hidden till the end of the attack. So like there's ways you can really gain it. So you can crit even more. Because you're hitting off guard AC.
Starting point is 00:21:45 You're hitting off guard. Yeah. But it's got a base plus 16 to attack, which you know, you throw a couple 17s and 18s. Now I'm hitting 33, 34. Does anybody have an AC over 24? I don't think so. I think that's right. 23. Yeah. I think 23 is right around where Zephyr is. 22, 23 maybe. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean even on a third attack, you're hitting.
Starting point is 00:22:11 But just goes to show you my rocks are what's making it so brutal. Because it has the damage that it's doing on the jaws is piercing and fire. So on a crit, those are both doubling. 2D6 plus 8 plus 1D6 fire becomes 4d6 plus 16 plus 2d6 fire. That is so much damage. You take two crits, nobody's going to stand up after that. So yeah, I mean, we've said this going back to Giant Slayer. It's like when I – but it sounds so stupid.
Starting point is 00:22:40 Obviously, when I roll well and you guys roll poorly, things go bad. But yeah, it's just – it's kind of been the theme of this campaign. Whereas you look at Strange Aeons, the opposite has been happening. Like I'm rolling terribly in Strange Aeons and you guys are rolling well and so you're having a good time. But with this, not so much. I feel like, yeah, I, some, it's just too hard. It is, it's too hard.
Starting point is 00:23:06 It doesn't make any sense. Like even for a single character, I believe Barnes, I'm guessing here, I don't have his character sheet. I would guess that Barnes, he is maxed to melee hit. Highest you could have at this level, of any class I would think, plus 10. Plus 16, that's six levels higher that's crazy what level you guys now create fourth for yeah so this is a creature six so it's two levels higher five just feels so much higher than that creature six is totally fine for us to
Starting point is 00:23:41 fight totally hard but totally fine for us to fight I just didn't know that creature six had a plus 16 to hit. That just feels wrong. I don't know. It's frustrating. I mean, if I roll a four, What's your AC? Is your AC 19? 18.
Starting point is 00:23:57 Yeah, so I only need to roll. No, I have an extremely low AC, but. So I only miss you on a natural one. Which would be a 17 to hit. A two is an 18. So, I only miss you on a natural one. Which would be a 17 to hit. A two is an 18. Yeah, I mean, that's brutal. That's insane.
Starting point is 00:24:11 So, you've got to pretty much be casting shield. Right. So, anything over- How long does shield last? What about mage armor? Do they still have that? Shield? Yeah, shield is just for a round, but that would get me up to 19.
Starting point is 00:24:28 Do they have mage armor? Probably clerics don't have that. I don't think they do. This is called mystic armor. Oh yeah, mystic armor now. And it is divine. And you can hide it. You ward yourself getting a plus one bonus to AC and a max dex mod of plus five.
Starting point is 00:24:47 While wearing Mystic Armor, you use your unarmored proficiency to calculate your AC. And you can hide it to fourth and gain a bonus to your saving throws. But it's not until you hide it to six that the AC bonus increases to plus two. However, even just getting a plus one for you that lasts, does this last like four hours like the old one? Duration until your next daily preparations. So you pretty much need to memorize Mystic Armor and cast it every morning when you wake up.
Starting point is 00:25:16 I guess. It's just frustrating because then it takes away a heal. Every heal is so important. And to get plus one to AC, I know it matters in this game, it really does. But if there's no armor that you can do and there's no other. Yeah. Maybe I should look into that. Yeah. Well, we're in the middle of some shit. We really don't know where it's going to go or how it's going to go down. I'm real bad. It's really, really bad. And we were all kind of debating after shutting down. Not like, not are we going to get out of this or are we going to TPK.
Starting point is 00:25:54 It was like, how many are going to die? It really feels like multiple deaths, maybe not a TPK. Because we don't know what this thing is. Felt that way with the Hobgoblins too, and you guys came out of it. Yeah, exactly. multiple deaths, maybe not a TPK, because we don't know what this thing is. What this situation is. Felt that way with the hobgoblins too when you guys came out of it, so. Yeah, exactly.
Starting point is 00:26:09 And I think that the, I think TPK can definitely be avoided if this is a death row situation. I think it's very deadly for us if it's a death row situation, but then we'll survive. If it's not, this encounter keeps going on, who knows what can happen.
Starting point is 00:26:23 So it really is, really is up in the air. Let's see what Professor Eric has to say a little segment we call we are stupid. We are stupid. Rituals on this edition. Let's go into some ritual talk. I think this is fun. So basically, we got the DCs wrong. We talked about that last week on Canada Fudder. So this week, we delved into it, we said confidently on air what the DC was, but we were wrong. But it's fine, because the DC is not obvious by any stretch, you got to go deeper into another part of the player core and find, you know, where it says just in one line, not, you know, not capitalized or anything, it just says they should
Starting point is 00:27:04 have a very difficult DC. So that means bumping up the DC a couple two levels beyond the base DC for a ritual of that level or the level of the PCs. So we know about that. Then Professor Eric says learning a ritual uses the usual rules for learning a spell. So there's I didn't see where it said that anywhere. But that is apparently the deal. And that means you need to spend gold to get it, you need to, you know, roll your die to make sure you succeed at learning it, all that kind of
Starting point is 00:27:33 stuff. He says it's entirely gated by rarity. And hence it is fully GM fiat for whether a ritual is available to learn or not. That's how I felt. That's fully GM Fiat. Yep. Um, with your critique on rituals, my feeling is that they kind of bashed three different concepts together. Uh, one, they wanted to have something in the game that was a multi
Starting point is 00:27:57 participant, uh, caster situation because it's interesting. Yeah. situation because it's interesting. And says, and moving some of the high material cost from spells to rituals, stuff like raise dead or reincarnate. These can now help allow lower level NPC churches to still provide these services. Since with NPC rules, you could still have a primary caster with a decent skill mod without needing to have higher ranked spells." So that is interesting. He says, I feel like it is actually intended more for non-PC use. Another point, and he says it here, is that one of the reasons to have rituals is the trope of a battle interrupting a ritual in progress. That's a very tropish kind
Starting point is 00:28:47 of story that you tell, right? In adventures. It's like, you need to stop this ritual before they complete the summoning of the great old one. Any sort of ritual like this could be written into a story from a homebrew perspective. You could look at the list of rituals and there's all kinds of neat stuff in the book and the PCs have to stop it. He says often though, it doesn't feel like the rules were written and like there aren't enough written rules to explain what would happen in this style encounter. So like for example, what happens if a secondary caster is slain during the ritual? There's nothing in the rules that explains what happens. You
Starting point is 00:29:25 kind of have to roll with that. How many actions per turn do you need to spend continuing the ritual? Can you spend one action continuing it and then two actions to do something else? Can you sustain your part while doing something else in a fight? It's interesting when you dig into it how there are a lot of loopholes here and it feels like they didn't quite finish it off. It's going to end up being a lot of GM fiat in rituals. So yeah, you know, it's just something to think about. It's like, it does have a neat story element that you could put into your games, especially for enemies to be doing and for you to interrupt, but just know, there's no written rules about how it all works and how it all comes together. You're going to have to wing it and make your own decisions, which I think is fun. Cool for you.
Starting point is 00:30:10 Yeah. So Sydney's saying she had access to the ritual. She was right for all the wrong reasons. Yes, exactly. Okay, real quick one. When Buggles cast invisibility, this is such a good point to always keep in mind when Buggles cast invisibility and then ran over near the creature, the creature Buggles probably needed a stealth check for sneaking if Buggles wanted to be undetected rather than hidden. So like that's just something to keep in mind
Starting point is 00:30:42 all GMs out there like invisibility is not just you don't exist on this plane anymore. Like you are there. Your presence can be heard, it can be smelt, it can be felt. And so, you know, you can give creatures a chance to know what square an invisible creature is in, if the invisible creature made no effort to be stealthy while invisible. So just something to keep in mind. I think that's a point that we often overlook.
Starting point is 00:31:11 Invisibility and undetected versus hidden versus all this, it is a mini game within Pathfinder 2.8. You know what I mean? I guess it was part of Pathfinder 1, but we just were like, ah, you're invisible. But like it is a mini game that I think mimics how it would actually be if you were invisible. But for some reason, my brain refuses to fully memorize how it works every single time. Like I learn it for the moment when I have somebody that casts like an enemy that can use invisibility and then my brain just knows to flush that information out so
Starting point is 00:31:45 that I have to relate. I don't know what it is. I refuse to just fully memorize how it works. It's so silly. Yeah. It's one of those blind spots for us for sure. I think invisibility – and I think this is common for a lot of people. Invisibility is just very easy to seem like a cure-all.
Starting point is 00:32:03 Like, oh, and now you can't be targeted unless they have see invisibility or see the unseen as we say in the remaster. Like, yeah, you hate it. But like so much what like, that's just not the case. You have to remember invisibility is a huge advantage. But it is not perfect. Yeah, it's an imperfect advantage when it comes to sensing your presence there. This is another great one. God, I love Professor Eric.
Starting point is 00:32:33 By the way, Professor Eric reached out and said that, you know, still interested in being involved. And so we are definitely gonna, you'll hear from Professor Eric, even though Cannon fodder is sun setting for now. So don't worry about that. We will get more of this in-depth info from a an expert and and somebody who really kind of delves into the books and pulls word-for-word exact lines and thank you for doing this right here regarding blesses duration after Ramias went down to dying to
Starting point is 00:33:01 remember this we discussed do they all lose less now because I went down boom it too. Remember this? We discussed, do they all lose bless now? Because I went down. Boom, it's got it right here. Player core, page 302. If a spells caster dies or is incapacitated during the spells duration, the spell remains in effect until its duration ends using the casters initiative order. Word for word. That's what you said and you were right. Yep. That was my gut instinct. And I but I didn't know what page it was. So thank you very much, Professor Eric for pointing that out. He says this worked in this case since bless has a duration. If it was, if the duration was sustained, it would have ended as you couldn't spend the action to sustain it. So that's really sustained is the duration you want to look for that will stop if you're ever incapacitated. Yeah, sense. And then one more thing, I'm just going to talk about this before
Starting point is 00:33:49 we get into listener mail, Zephyr damage. Professor Eric is saying that there are some people out there. I'm not sure what platform they're chatting on, but that believe that the Zephyrs damage sounds a little bit low. If she had a striking rune on her hand wraps. She does not have a striking rune on her hand wraps. He says, I don't think we know exactly where all the runes went, but Zephyr was only rolling one die. So I'm assuming there's no striking on her hand wraps. I confirmed with Kate after getting Professor Eric's note and that is correct.
Starting point is 00:34:23 She put the striking rune on her longbow. So when she is punching with her fist, she is only rolling one die still, and that is why that damage feels a little bit low. He said, this is probably correct, as I think she'd prioritize her bow for upgrades. And you are right, Professor Eric. He's like, I'm more just mentioning it in case we want to double check that all the numbers got updated after the runes got put in. So yep, thank you for double checking us.
Starting point is 00:34:47 But her rune is in her longbow. She does have a plus one potency rune in her hand wraps, but we could not yet afford a striking rune for her hand wraps. What is the potency bonus to hit? Plus one to hit, yeah. Plus one potency rune to hit, but it doesn't increase the damage. Her longbow is plus one striking. And now she's got a short bow as well, which is great for utility when people are closer
Starting point is 00:35:11 range that has no runes on it right now. It's just a raw short bow. So yeah, Kate confirmed all of her gear just before the FOD. Well, there it is. All right. Let's take it to a little listener mail. Let's hear from the niche. Thank you, good buddy Nick. Let's hear from Jean Willie, or Jean Willie.
Starting point is 00:35:51 I'm sure it's Jean Willie because it's Ridgefield, New Jersey, not Paris, France. What up, Jean? What up, Jay Willie? In Ridgefield, New Jersey, who says, in the latest episode of Legacy of the Ancients, Skid had the party make wisdom checks to remember something. I'm not gonna go into detail just because people aren't caught up or whatever.
Starting point is 00:36:12 Wisdom checks to remember something. What would Skid have done if everyone failed? What would either of you have done if it was your game and everyone failed? Thanks for all the great stories. I'm bringing it up here because I think it is a good general question for GMs is like, and Troy, you've been in this situation, tell me how you handle it.
Starting point is 00:36:29 What do you do when the players are all honestly forgetting something? Like, do you remember a piece of gear that they have on their person, a critical key that's on a key ring to get into a locked door, and they just forgot because it was months ago that they originally got it? Skid sometimes does intelligence checks, wisdom checks, that kind of thing. But let's say they fail. How do you shoehorn this in or do you just tell the players, like, guys, you forgot this, that, or the other thing?
Starting point is 00:36:55 I don't remember you ever doing that, like being like, guys, you're forgetting you got this. How do you handle that as a GM? It depends on the item, right? Like if it's only going to give you a bonus bonus but it's not like the key that you need to progress the adventure, there's a big difference, right? Like I feel like if it's just going to give you a cool bonus, then the onus is on the players to remember that.
Starting point is 00:37:17 I don't think I'd give any check. You know, I certainly have never done it in 2E that I can remember. Give me an intelligence check. I think I remember doing stuff like that in first edition of Giant Slayer but not so much for memories, maybe once or twice. If it's an item that the players have to have to move on and progress the game, that's where it gets a little bit trickier. If you're giving them a check, then you have to be willing to figure out what the fail condition is.
Starting point is 00:37:50 If the fail condition they just don't remember, then maybe the check wasn't the way to go, right? Like if it's something that they need, you can either just tell them, be like, don't forget you got this thing or use an NPC to be like, if only we had an idol that was in the exact shape of that hole in the wall. You can kind of like egg the players on with an NPC to get them there. But sometimes it's like, if it's just a black spot in the player's memory, you can just be like, you guys actually have this thing. You got it. Yeah. Jumping on that, I think that it's important to not do die rolls for things that are adventure stopping, like plot stopping items that they just honestly forgot. It makes them feel, I think,
Starting point is 00:38:36 a little bit silly and a little bit stupid to have a die roll to remember this stuff because then they're like, oh, of course, blah, blah, blah. But you know, and what are you going to do if they all fail, then you have to do it anyway, which seems kind of silly. So I would say when you're in that case, it's a key that you forgot to the door. That's the only way in like, you just tell them that they have it. Let's say you mentioned the NPC aspect. Let's say it's, it's neither of the scenarios we've laid out so far. It's neither a bonus that the player, a buff for the players, nor campaign breaking. What if it's something like an NPC is like,
Starting point is 00:39:15 let's say they locked up a prisoner or something like that and forgot about it, like just forgot that this person is there. And if they just honestly forget that person is going to die, doesn't stop the adventure, does it? But it does like it has a serious impact on the story. But you know, the players just honestly forgot. How would you approach that? Do you make it that the players like you forgot? You know, like, I always struggle with it. Because I'm like, there's no way the characters would forget like like, this or that thing, right? You could debate whether the characters would forget or not. Uh, it's, it's, it's tricky when you're debating
Starting point is 00:39:51 what the characters remember versus what the players remember, but what would you do in that situation? A major story-changing thing that you think is just an honest, like, they forgot it because it was too many sessions ago. It's been three months since we've played played and now they don't remember this thing. Yeah. I mean, I feel like if you haven't mentioned it, like, hey, don't forget about Tommy in the jail, then like you, the GM are also kind of responsible for it. You're complicit.
Starting point is 00:40:16 Yeah. So like you can either give them reminders from time to time. As part of the recap. Yeah. That you put in the prison, he's still there. Dude, I do this all the time. I'm kind of tipping my hand here, but I do it all the time in Strange Aeons. The recaps that I give in Strange Aeons, I'll specifically bring up things that I know I haven't talked about in a while because they're going to become relevant in this episode. It happened in Philly. I mentioned certain things in the recap that like – I don't want to say
Starting point is 00:40:46 because I don't want to spoil Philly, but talking about the stewards and whatnot and then having you guys talk to them afterwards, it just kind of refresh your memory about who these people are. So, a recap is a great way to do it. When you just want to like replant that seed into their head and you can also do it with items, right? You can be like – and so then that's where you got that sword, that glowing magical sword. Yeah, you looted that rune, blah, blah, blah. And they can be like, oh shit, we have a rune.
Starting point is 00:41:12 That's right. We never put that in. Like, yeah, I think recaps are a great way to do it. How do you feel in general about giving players roles for their characters to remember things? I think it's fine. It's a fine device. You just have to, you just have to figure out if the, if the fail condition is they don't remember. Like if you're going to give them that information anyways, don't do a role or, you know, call
Starting point is 00:41:35 a Cthulhu style, punish them, get like fail forward. You know what I mean? Like, are you remember this thing, but now you're bleeding out, you know, I don't know you stub your toe. But in that moment, you collapse, dying too. You have a seizure. Yeah. I think that this happens a lot, I think, to not even inexperienced GMs, just GM. Certainly, inexperienced GMs, but to GMs who don't quite know what to do in this moment because they're still thinking it through, it'd be like, roll a perception check. Don't have a roll a perception check if you're going to give them the answer anyways.
Starting point is 00:42:05 Do you know what I mean? And it happens all the time. I'm sure I've done it. It's like if you're going to tell them what the answer is, don't have them roll a check. Just have them, just tell them the answer. You know my favorite thing that you do all the time, your big foible that I think is so funny is like always wanting to be vague even when it's so obvious. All the time.
Starting point is 00:42:23 It was on Gatewalkers, wasn't it? Just a few weeks ago. I don't even know if it hasn't aired yet, but you said like, it seems to attack you. I feel easy what it was. You were like, he seems to attack you. Then you're like, what am I saying? He attacked you.
Starting point is 00:42:38 In an effort to like build tension, I like over explain. Keeping it overly vague. Yeah. That that is that's a huge point. Do not. Oh, man, this is like a great GM commandment. Do not ask for a role. If you don't have a plan for the fail condition, right? You know what I mean? Like, or not ask for a role when you're going to give them the information anyway. Yes, exactly. Like if you don't have a plan for the fail condition, don't ask for the role. Just just get and if you like, yeah, I think that's a good that's just a good tenant. Just leave it and fail forward. Give have the role happen. But that's a plan. Yeah, that's a plan. I'm gonna give you the answer no matter what but if you fail this role There's going to be another repercussion
Starting point is 00:43:29 I did a lot of this on get in the trunk I would I would set up sort of a a tough choice for a character coming up in an episode and I'd be like If they choose this then I'll do this if they choose that don't do that Do it a or B and then maybe they'll throw in C and then I'll just have to bob and weave but it is what it is now Some of them will also be die rolls. When it comes to a die roll, this has to move forward and I would know this. Even on a failure, it has to move forward. So I would pre-plan a fail forward condition.
Starting point is 00:43:58 So the classic example is, and this is like right out of I think the GM, the game mastery guide from 1E or something like that, is like they fail on the disabled device to pick the lock that is the only door, the only way into the next part of the story. And instead of just seeing like you can't get through, they open up the door, but now there's an extra guy in the room in the fight. Or they open up the door and a trap goes off that they didn't detect. Or they open up the door, but now there's an extra guy in the room in the fight, or they open up the door and a trap goes off that they didn't attack. Or they open up the door and now all the enemies are ready for them because they heard the whole thing and they get a surprise round. There's a lot of different ways you can fail forward, but always have that in mind as a GM. What's the fail forward condition? Make sure that the check makes sense.
Starting point is 00:44:45 If you fail a wisdom check, a ton of bricks aren't going to fall on your head. You know what I mean? That's why in Call of Cthulhu, if you're trying to pick a lock and you fail the – I haven't played Call of Cthulhu in a while, so I can't think of what the check is. It's not stealth. Maybe it is stealth. But anyways, let's say it's stealth, right? You fail the stealth. It's lockpicking, isn't it?
Starting point is 00:45:07 Maybe it's lockpicking. Yeah, dude, I'm so brain dead. So you – but they have – the heroes have to get into this room. You've decided for whatever reason, they need to get into this room. Roll the lockpick check. You fail that check. You open the lock, no problem. But there is an issue. You cut your hand as you're opening the lock. Now you take a little bit of damage. The characters are already so squishy. Or you make a loud noise as you unlock the lock and that alerts the enemies that may be in the room or the guards that are walking the perimeter.
Starting point is 00:45:37 Failing a wisdom check to learn information and then having you stumble into a trap, it's a little bit more of a stretch. If only I was wiser, I would have seen that trap. Maybe, right? But you want to make sure that you're not punishing them for a skill that didn't make sense that they failed. I agree. I agree with that. But I also think that that's why don't ask for the wisdom check unless you have a plan for the failure condition. That's the source of Jay Willey's question here is like, what would you have done if you all did not remember this?
Starting point is 00:46:11 This is a big deal. The point is like, I'd love to ask you that question, but I'm sure he'd be a little bit reserved as that's a very, it's a story moment and he might need to use that later on down the line. So, um, I think that the main takeaway is don't ask for the check. If you don't have a plan for everyone failing it, even if you think it's an easy check, especially in one E wisdom checks could be like DC 12, that would be like standard and if they all happen to just roll low, like, God, that happens. It's happened to me as a GM where you're just like, Jesus Christ, like, how am I gonna get the moving forward?
Starting point is 00:46:47 Like if they're all failing this easy roll, you just gotta have a plan for it. So, or don't give them the roll, just let them have it. It's fine. Right. You know, like- If it's treasure they miss, let them miss it. I love it.
Starting point is 00:46:57 I do it all the time. Yeah. I used to, when I first started GMing, I'm like, you have to find everything. So I would make sure that you would like, oh, roll again. Or why don't you roll other person? But like, if it's information that they need, just find a way to give it to them. Don't make them roll for it if it's if it's necessary for the progression of the adventure. Totally. And the the other one that is a bit of a
Starting point is 00:47:27 The other one that is a bit of a, what's the word I'm looking for? A pet peeve of mine is like, everybody give me a perception check. Everybody rolls a perception check. Who knows what DC is. You just go to whoever rolled the highest. You say, you hear an army descending upon the city and beginning a siege. It's like, I mean, everybody can hear that, you know what I mean? Like, you don't need a perception check. Sometimes people want to just get a role in, or they want to like heightened attention by having everybody roll for something that is something everybody's obviously going to be exposed to very quickly. I've avoided doing those. I stopped doing that.
Starting point is 00:48:02 Like just just keep the story moving and have the die roll happen when failure matters or is going to change the fork in the course of the story. I still do it. It's a stall tactic for sure. Yeah, I've used that as a stall tactic, yeah. But like, because you're like, let me just have everybody roll a check while you're fucking plant prepping the next sentence you're going to say. When everybody roll, you're not even listening to what their responses are because you're
Starting point is 00:48:26 like, you just use that to – but you could also like the person who actually – in that example, right, they hear it. If there's a mechanical benefit to them hearing it versus everybody else not hearing it like now you get a plus two on your will save for the fucking spell that the necromancer is going to cast, then there's merit to it and still you can use the like you hear something that everyone is about to hear a second later but that gap in time is enough to put everyone else at a disadvantage, then it's cool. I mean that happened all the time in first edition with surprise rounds.
Starting point is 00:48:59 It was much more prevalent because you could say like you hear fucking creakiness coming out of the rover initiative and everyone should you hear fucking creakiness coming out of the role for initiative. Everyone should have heard that creakiness, but the person who did gets to act in a surprise round whereas nobody else does. There's ways around it. Well, the tenant, yeah, that's a great point. I think the tenant there, the commandment there is don't have people roll if there isn't
Starting point is 00:49:24 a reward for succeeding at the role. Right? If something good doesn't come of it or something bad on a failure that is clear and different from a failure, then don't have them roll. You know what I mean? That's kind of how I would sum that up. Let's take it a step farther. If you're creating your own adventures, avoid creating
Starting point is 00:49:51 these items that you can't move the story without. You know what I mean? I remember playing in something years ago where everyone at the table missed this item and the GM was like, you sure you don't want to grab such and such an item, like laid it on thick like that?" I was like, oh, I see what's happening here. That is an item that we will be unable to progress the story without. Don't do that. Don't create things where the only solution is forward. Missing it should have a penalty. Having it should have a bonus, but don't make it an unopenable door if you don't have that item or that
Starting point is 00:50:27 information. Just try and find a little more nuance if you're doing your own homebrews. Yeah, always let always have at least two ways into a thing. You know what I mean? And always, when it comes to those items, it's I think it's great having key items, pivotal plot items, that's fine. Yeah. But don't make them something you can only find on a successful role. That's dangerous at counter design and or scenario design. And it'll end up so many times as a GM, it'll end up having you like gnashing your teeth. Like what have I done?
Starting point is 00:50:57 Now I have to look like an idiot being like, why don't you roll a check? Double check that pile. It's just kind of silly. So just give it to them if they need it that much. And you find this no roll needed. Unless you have an idea for a failure condition. Or you can move that item to later in the adventure somewhere and have it pop up again. That's always fun too. You can always do that.
Starting point is 00:51:22 But that's a failure plan. So we come back to that main commandment. Don't have them roll if you don't have a plan for success and failure. But you just made a good point there, like move it. If it's an item, you can move it to a different part of the adventure. You can do that with treasure too. If you're like, man, they don't really have a lot of treasure. They've missed out on this.
Starting point is 00:51:38 I'm going to do that. I don't do that that often. But it's something you can do. If that item is important, just move it to a different place on the map the world. This is why I this is why I hate why hate I just forgot what I hate. This is why I hate puzzles. So I hate puzzles. Because I feel like so often, the GM just ends up telling you what the solution is. Puzzles are hard, man. And like easy puzzles are like, why did we do that? That wasn't that, you know, that was kind of silly. I'm so bad at puzzles. So I put in a hard puzzle and I just sit there until the GM just tells
Starting point is 00:52:16 me what the solution is. I fucking hate them. But I love them as a GM. I love watching the players work through it. You know what I mean? I love that. I love the as a GM. I love watching the players work through it. You know what I mean? I love that I love the existence of puzzles. I just hate playing them as a player because I suck at them All right, that's gonna wrap it up, dude. Oh, there it is. Hey buddy last last thought for a while Well, maybe forever. I don't know Slash ever we never know we've said this multiple times with fodder and it is re-emerged in new in different ways But yeah this time we're very Excited about the new things we have coming So one week from today December 18th 8 p.m
Starting point is 00:52:51 Eastern live on twitch.tv slash the glass cannon tune in for the state of the nation and find out what's coming in 2025 Maybe you'll start to put together this matrix of how we're going to reimagine fodder in many different ways So tune in for that and you can put the puzzle together yourself. Thanks good buddy. It's been a fun two years doing these week in and week out and I look forward to doing it again in different ways in the future. Yeah, Merry Christmas everybody. Yeah, Merry Christmas. We'll see you soon. Bye. Bye Do you like what you hear well that it's time to make your membership official you can start your 30-day free trial today and Become an official member of the nash at join the nash.com with the promo code GCN 30 that's join the
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