The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens - The Packaging Revolution: Industry's Responsibility & the Innovations That Could Mitigate the Waste Crisis with Wes Carter

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Packaging is an unavoidable feature of modern life. It's so embedded in our products and systems that even the most environmentally-minded consumers struggle to avoid it entirely. Yet packaging accounts for nearly half of all plastic waste, contributing to widespread ecological harm and growing threats to human health – highlighting the urgent need for an overhaul of packaging materials and industry practices. So how are some industry leaders reimagining materials, systems, and supply chains in ways that align with the realities of our finite planet? In today's episode, Nate is joined by Wes Carter, president of Atlantic Packaging, to discuss the pressing need for radical transformation in the packaging industry, and how his company has become a leader in sustainable packaging innovation. He emphasizes the role of industry in addressing the plastic pollution crisis, especially given the outsized role of plastic packaging in damaging human and planetary health. He also shares his personal journey towards environmental stewardship and the significance of personal healing and spiritual growth in driving systemic change. How can leaders working within these systems drive outsized change – before ecological limits force change upon us? What could other industries learn from the rapid innovation of packaging systems and technology? Ultimately, does the real transformation go beyond technology and into our expectations and values for what it means to lead fulfilling and meaningful lives beyond a consumer culture built solely on comfort?  (Conversation recorded on May 28th, 2025)     About Wes Carter: Wes Carter is the founder of A New Earth Project and the third generation leader of Atlantic Packaging. Atlantic is the largest privately-held and most technical resource in packaging in North America, supporting major consumer products packaging needs across virtually every manufacturing vertical. Atlantic specializes in optimizing packaging through technology and comprehensive programs to drive sustainable value. Today, as the president of Atlantic Packaging, Wes is the driving force behind the company's sustainability initiative and its commitment to making real and lasting change. He launched A New Earth Project in January of 2020 to be the inspiration driving this movement into the future.   Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube   Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.   ---   Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners  

As we transition packaging to mimic nature, first and foremost, it will help alleviate the waste crisis. But I also believe because packaging is ubiquitous, it is a potent symbol of what our values are as human beings. The packaging says we don't value life. We don't value nature. We're a throwaway society. But as we shift to more sustainable packaging, it's also a shift in saying, we value life and acknowledging how important the natural world is for abundance, for happiness, for all the things that humans desire. So this transition is spiritual in nature and can be seen through that lens. You're listening to the great simplification. I'm Nate Hagen's. On this show, we describe how energy, the economy, the environment and human behavior all fit together

and what it might mean for our future. By sharing it, insights from global thinkers we hope to inform and inspire more humans to play emergent roles in the coming great simplification. Today I'm joined by Wes Carter, one of the leading voices, if not the leading voice in the movement towards sustainable packaging. We talk not only about the state and logistics of the packaging industry, but also about his personal journey driving ecological reform within it. Wes Carter is the third. third-generation leader of Atlantic packaging, which is the largest privately held and most technical packaging company in North America, supporting major consumer product packaging needs

across virtually every manufacturing vertical. Today, as president of Atlantic packaging, Wes is the driving force behind the company's sustainability initiatives and its commitment to making real and lasting change. He is also the founder of a new Earth project, which is a strategic collaboration between outdoor enthusiasts and global packaging suppliers. Their mission is to rid the world's oceans, lakes, and rivers of plastic pollution. In this episode, Wes and I explore the inescapable role of packaging in modern life and what it takes to make that reality less destructive to our planet. While Wes and I don't agree on everything, and I rarely do agree with any guest completely,

we meet at a critical shared belief that human systems must ultimately prioritize and be in service to life. Wes has brought that principle into the heart of an industry that touches nearly everything we consume. Please welcome Wes Carter. Wes Carter, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It's good to see you again. I am excited for this conversation. Why? Because I have no idea where it's going to go. There are some topics I want to cover. Specifically, you are the third generation president of Atlantic packaging, which is the largest privately held packaging company in North America. And you and Atlantic are leading the integration of the packaging industry with the idea of stewardship for the natural world. So let's just start there.

Can you say a bit about why there is increasing public awareness and urgency the way that our society packages goods? Sure. Yeah. I mean, as you said, we're an 80-year-old privately held packaging company, and we support the packaging needs of the largest consumer products companies and retail brands in the world in pretty much every industry. We service the food industry, the beverage industry, the building products industry, the e-commerce industry. So it's companies like Procter & Gamble, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Amazon, William Sonoma. I mean, BMW, Volvo, like it's such a wide swath of companies. BMW has a packaging?

Yeah, you think about all the components that go into their cars. Like, you know, most of the automotive plants are assembly plants. And then they have Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers that typically are in the same geography that are making windshield. wipers or brake assemblies or drive trains, and those things are being shipped into an assembly plant. So oftentimes a lot of our customers will be the Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers that are shipping these components into the assembly plants. If I interrupt every question I ask you, we're going to be here for six hours knowing you and I. So please continue on the increased issue of plastics and packaging. Yeah. And I mean, I'll start out by saying, you know, today,

sustainability is a part of my DNA. I mean, it is the thing that drives me more than any other single thing is to be an organization that is supporting what I call a sustainable revolution in the supply chain. But that is not where I started. When I first started my career almost 25 years ago now, sustainability wasn't even on my radar. I was just a young kid out of college who was joining his family's company and learning how to sell packaging. And I learned a lot. My father was an incredible entrepreneur that really took our business from a small little regional company to a large national player over his 50-year career. And I love the organization and I love the people. And that was what originally attracted me to join the organization. But I've always been a lifelong

outdoor person. You know, I grew up on the coast of North Carolina as a surfer and a fisherman. I was an Eagle Scout as a kid, and when I got out of school, I worked in the outdoor industry in Park City, Utah. So I just always loved the outdoors. And how this really began for me was, you know, about 10 years ago when I, you know, my career had matured, I was, I'd been doing this a little while. I was pretty good at it. I, you know, understood how to service customers. I knew what our company was all about. But I was on a surfing trip to Southeast Asia, actually, with my brother and some friends of mine.

and the plastic pollution that I was witnessing was radical. And I was in arguably the most beautiful place on the planet I'd ever been, is surfers paradise, the Mintois Islands. And I'm looking around in the lineup and there's plastic everywhere. And most of it is packaging. And there was just this moment where I was like, man, this is all coming from the supply chain that we're a part of. Like a lot of the pollution that I'm witnessing isn't all packaging that we sell.

But this is a function of the supply chain. plot chain not functioning properly. Like this is a, this is a direct evidence of an illness. You know, that's kind of how I saw it. And so when I got home from that trip, I like to say it wasn't a strike of lightning. It wasn't like in that moment, everything changed. But it really began a dialogue for me, an internal dialogue about like, what is my career really going to be about? And ultimately, what is my life really going to be about? And we already had an organization that was highly technical. You know, my dad had really led our organization to be a highly sophisticated packaging company that was focused on packaging efficiency. That was our value proposition since the

mid-90s is helping company drive out cost and reduce damage through innovation. You know, sophisticated products, sophisticated packaging equipment, marrying those two things together. So we already had this sort of use less model that was our primary value proposition. It's how we cut our teeth at places like Coca-Cola. But what we weren't doing, and really I didn't see anybody in our industry doing much, was really paying attention to what happened to these products after we sold them. You know, it was sort of like, once we sold a product, it's no longer our responsibility, is somebody else's responsibility.

And witnessing all that plastic pollution, not just in Indonesia, but I was seeing it, too, in the marshes of Charleston, South Carolina, where I like to fish. and when I would go home and surf off the coasts of Riceville Beach and get out of the water and see plastic bags and plastic bottles on the beach. You know, it's like there's an opportunity for an organization like us to really have an impact. And first of all, we have to acknowledge that if we are creating or selling materials that have an opportunity to end up as pollution, then my belief is that we have an inherent responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen. you know, and that is not what I was hearing out there in the public sphere. It was like, oh, broken waste infrastructure or it's a litter problem, like really pushing this plastic pollution crisis on individual human behavior, which to me is ridiculous. I mean, it is the responsibility of industry to provide products and materials that are healthy for humans and for the natural world, which are, you know, completely integrated. I mean, planetary health and human. human health are very integrated. With a lag.

With a lag. Exactly. And so, you know, it's been a journey for me for sure. And I can talk more about how it all evolved. But ultimately, the catalyzer for me was that trip and witnessing the impact our industry was having. Because up until that point, you know, we were only innovating in the direction of speed, efficiency, cost, convenience, like that, and not just the packaging industry. I think you can argue almost since the Industrial Revolution, the altar that industry has worshipped at has been the

altar of cost, convenience, and comfort. We have, we decided that that's what humanity needed. We need to be more comfortable. That'll make us happy. Well, the plastic pollution crisis, climate change, all of the environmental degradation that we are witnessing in today's world, is a result of innovating in the wrong direction. Well, I say the wrong direction. Cost and convenience and comfort aren't necessarily bad things. They're just terrible masters. And so today, to me, sustainability is really the acknowledgement that we are nature,

not something separate from it. And we as intelligent beings on this planet have a responsibility and a privilege to steward life. like life is sacred. And so if we acknowledge that undeniable fact, then a sustainable revolution in packaging is just a pivot to begin to innovate products in the direction of life, in the direction of health. And I believe, you know, that is what we are trying to do at Atlantic and with the New Earth Project is acknowledging a fundamental truth of reality that life is sacred and that the natural world is integral, the health of the natural world is integral to our own health,

and we need to create products that harmonize with the natural world that mimic nature, not are antagonistic to it. So I have a ton of questions. I'm going to skip right ahead, because this is what is on my mind at the moment after hearing what you just said. What percent roughly of a product, like a bottle of Coca-Cola, a plastic bottle of Coca-Cola, a plastic bottle of Coca-Cola, Cola is the packaging. Oh, what percentage is the packaging to the total product itself? To the total cost of the product. Oh, you know, it's so variable. I mean, you know, like, but ultimately, I think the thing to understand is all of this plastic packaging will use, single-use plastic packaging. You know, like ultimately, the reason it's ubiquitous is because it's so cheap. There is no cheaper way to

deliver a product to an individual consumer in most cases. And so if all we care about is convenience and cheap, that's what you get. And I don't believe that all plastics are bad. What I believe is that myopically saying plastic in every application is preferable because it's the least expensive is super problematic. Well, here is where I was going with that question. If If we tripled the cost of packaging to enable some biodegradable things made from bamboo or coconut shells or whatever technology there would be, does that technology exist today to make what we're currently using plastics for that would be healthier for the environment? and the only the hurdle is cost to the bottom line of either the consumers or the corporations that use it. Yes. I mean, there's multiple factors that we have to acknowledge. Certainly, one thing I remind people of is plastics. There have been hundreds of billions of dollars over the last 40 or 50 years invested in the development of plastics. And so in a lot of these nature-based feed stocks, outside of paper,

outside of paper products, there's been $2 invested in over the last two years. I mean, you know, this is a very new thing of trying to make plastics from hemp or from seaweed or from mycelium. And so they have no scale. You just said to make plastics from hemp. Did you mean packaging or did you mean plastics? Both. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's opportunities to make a lot of materials from things like hemp and seaweed and mycelium and live. Lignan from fiber. I mean, and we're working on a lot of those things. So, yes, cost is a big barrier, but, you know, probably before that is just functionality. You know, so, like, the time it takes to innovate a new packaging material that can give you the performance that you get from plastic is the first barrier, you know. And then you have cost. Now, fortunately, there is a lot of legislation, EPAR.

legislation is what you're hearing more and more about. There's about 10 states that have implemented EPR schemes. What is EPR? It stands for extended producer responsibility. It basically says that the producers, which are really the brands, the brands that are delivering products to you, are responsible for the packaging and the cost of the disposal of that packaging. That's new. I mean, Today, in most places, all of that lands on the taxpayer. You know, the brands aren't responsible for the disposal of the packaging that ends up as trash or recyclables at your house. EPR says, no, we're going to push those costs back on the brands themselves. And it really, it's a fee structure.

It's really a tax. And the more difficult the product is to recycle or compost, the higher the fees are typically. And so the fees are scaled based on the difficulty, the end of life scenarios. And it does a couple of things. The funding from EPR in a perfect world funds investments in recycling infrastructure and more sophisticated recycling and expanding composting as an example. But it also levels the playing field. It takes these really cheap plastic products and adds a tax to them so that the alternative

nature-based materials have a fighting. chance of getting into the marketplace. So EPR philosophically, I really agree with. In practice, it's a bear to implement when you're talking about the entire materials economy. So break it down for the viewers. There's a distinction between industrial packaging and direct-to-consumer packaging, right? And then there's also, like, there's the United States and there's Europe, but then there's Asia, and you were just talking about when you were surfing. To my knowledge, I was in India, and my friend just got back from Vietnam. They just burned their plastic.

There's not even any recycling. So how does what's happening in North America differ from other places in the world with respect to the industrial and direct-to-consumer packaging? Traditionally, at Atlantic for most of my career and certainly for most of my father's career, we primarily sold B2B packaging or what I call logistical packaging. We're selling packaging to big companies that are shipping to other big companies. And it's full pallet loads or what we call unit loads of product. That was the primary packaging.

It's things like stretch film and shrink bundling film and cornerboards and corrugated boxes, like everything that would go into a unit load. But with the advent of e-commerce, you know, there's so much. much more direct-to-consumer packaging, where a lot of the direct-to-consumer has moved from a retail store to your doorstep. And so the amount of packaging going to people's homes today is far greater than it's ever been in human history. Which back to your initial question, like this whole sustainable revolution, COVID actually, there was a real silver lining for the packaging industry if you're focused on sustainability because everyone went home for two years and it just happened to be at a

time with the evolution of technology where you could order anything you needed to your house from your phone. So the amount of packaging that went to every single person, not just in North America, but all over the world's houses, was exponential. And regular people started asking questions like, why do I need all this packaging? And what is recyclable and what isn't? And I mentioned earlier, like this for me wasn't a strike a lightning moment. A few years after that trip to Indonesia was during the first year of COVID and I'm driving through my neighborhood, every trash can, every blue bin is overflowing with packaging. And a lot of what people are putting in the blue bin is not recyclable. And I'm sitting there watching that. I'm like, there's just massive confusion. But that glut of

packaging created awareness with regular people. And that created demand for sustainable packaging in a huge way. Like, and we've been riding that wave. But to answer your question that you just asked, as far as like in North America and the United States, we have pretty good waste infrastructure. It's far from perfect and we need a lot of reform. But compared to India or Southeast Asia, it's significant. And so one of the reasons like in the e-commerce space, we've really championed paper packaging or what we call fiber-based packaging to replace things like bubble wrap and inflatable air pillows and foam, first of all, protective packaging in a parcel is not terribly technical.

You know, you're just protecting a product from damage during shipping. And if we can go from plastic to paper, every blue bin in America can recycle paper. And so we already have the built-in infrastructure for circularity. So that's one huge advantage that we have in the United States and in Europe is we can recycle paper really well. And we know how to make paper at scale. There's huge demand for it. We have the feedstocks, the nature-based, feedstocks, working forests or something that we know how to do really well in North America.

So, you know, I don't believe paper is the end-all, be-all greatest feedstock. But, boy, we sure do have the ability to scale paper and to evolve paper packaging today. And given that the infrastructure already exists for the recycling piece, it's a huge advantage when you're trying to make big, you know, industry-wide change. Give us some stats on recycling. I mean, a lot of people have their views of sustainable futures predicated on circular economies and recycling. My understanding is from the material basis, we recycle around 8% of our waste globally. Now, you said paper is probably more than that. But like what is the current state of recycling and maybe you could highlight a few different categories?

Yeah. So that 8% or 9% number is talking about plastic, you know. And so 8 to 9% of plastics get recycled. And that's true. Now there's certain categories of plastics that get recycled at a lot higher rate than others. The hardest to recycle plastics by far are flexible plastics like wrappers. rigid plastics like Coke bottles and milk jugs and things like that. They're three-dimensional.

So when they're going down a conveyor at a sorting facility, which is where all your blue bins go is to these recycling centers where they're basically sorting facilities. The three-dimensional rigid stuff is actually pretty easy to sort. And so it has a higher recycling rate. The flexible stuff is really hard to sort because it lays flat on the conveyor. It falls between the screens. It's hard for the visions. systems that are identifying the packaging to pick it up. And then a lot of that flexible packaging

is also protecting food. And so because it's protecting food, it has lots of barrier properties built into the structures to add shelf life. Well, it adds shelf life, but it makes it really hard to recycle, even if you can sort it because it's got a lot of different polymers in it. And so More polymers means very difficult to recycle. So, you know, the idea that we're going to recycle our way out of the plastics crisis is crazy. We're never going to do it. Now, recycling is important and we need it and we need highly technically advanced recycling. You know, and that exists.

I mean, robotics, high speed conveyors, vision, artificial intelligence. I've got friends in the recycling business that are building $100 million recycling centers that look like, you know, you're walking into NASA. I mean, and that's what we need, you know, because the more efficiently we can sort the lower the costs are and the cleaner the waste is because what you need for recycling is clean waste streams, which means you need clean sorting. So that's plastic.

Now, paper, you know, much higher recycling rate, you know, depends on what reports you look at, but my sense is it's right around 60%. 62, 65. There's some people that say it's higher than that, but I think 60 is a pretty good number. And so compared to plastics, wow, it's a lot, a lot higher. And honestly, that's without a lot of effort. One of the reasons that we recycle paper really well is because there is a demand for the recyclable paper. Like paper mills that make paper want that paper back to put it back into recycled sheets. So there is a financial incentive for paper companies to get that back. And that's why a lot of people don't realize this.

Most of the recycling centers in the United States are owned by paper companies. So your blue bin goes to a recycling center that is likely owned by a paper company because they're mainly interested in the paper, the fiber. Now, they'll sell the aluminum cans and they'll sell the milk jugs and things like that on the open market. But, you know, that waste infrastructure is far from perfect. but compared to a lot of other areas of the globe, you know, we do have, you know, more robust waste infrastructure and that helps. Isn't recycling just putting a band-aid on a larger, over-consumptive problem? I mean, your entire industry packaging is downstream from the decision to grow and have more

throughput and more consumption and more things. So to be sustainable, you really mean more sustainable than we are today. So you're just kind of assuming that the rest of society carries on the way we do, and you want to make the packaging component the most regenerative, most biodegradable, most sustainable, most recycled, better for in service of life as possible, given that umbrella overview. Is that a fair statement? There's fairness in that statement. but I think there is a greater narrative.

I mean, a society that is obsessed with overconsumption is a spiritual issue. That is a spiritual crisis. You know, and I'll get a little esoteric. But what that tells me is that there's a place inside of us that we are trying to feed that is that we continue to consume. You know, like we don't feel like we have what we need and we're always looking for more, more, more. If I have more, I'll do better. I'll feel better. I'll be better. And for anybody that's been walking the spiritual path, you figure out pretty quickly that that is not where fulfillment comes from, from overconsumption. But it is the world that we live in today. So, I mean, it's really twofold. I believe as we transition packaging to more biomimicry, to mimic nature, first and foremost, it will help alleviate the waste crisis. It will. And the timeline for doing that is relatively quite.

quickly if we have a concerted effort. I mean, if you've noticed even since COVID over the last few years, a lot less plastic is showing up at your house from companies like Amazon. You know, more and more paper packaging is showing up because they are responding to consumer demand for more sustainable materials. But I also believe as a culture, because packaging is ubiquitous, and it touches everyone every day, it is a potent. symbol of what our values are as human beings. And our values today, the packaging says, we don't value life. We don't value nature. We're a throwaway society. Like, that's what our packaging says today in many cases. But as we shift to more sustainable packaging, I think there's

an argument that it's also a shift in consciousness, that it is a shift in saying, we value life. life is what's fundamental and we're making conscious decisions to make shifts to the materials that we use acknowledging how important the natural world is and how critical it is for abundance, for happiness, for all the things that humans desire. So I do believe that this transition is spiritual in nature and can be seen through that lens. It's certainly the lens that I see it through. And as a human being, you see it that way, which is why we're friends and why I asked you on the show. But as the president of a packaging company that responds to the Amazon's and Coca-Cola's of the world, their boards of directors and their shareholders optimize for profits.

And profits right now are based on incorrect, in my opinion, and you'd probably agree, prices, which, like you said, promote convenience and cost and efficiency. So wearing your CEO hat, are you actually trying to impact this larger conversation? Or is it all just about the best inputs to make things more biomimicry and more sustainable in the material side? No. The packaging development, the sustainability piece is a catalyzer. to me, it's like the first step, you know, in a much larger conversation about what it ultimately means to be a human. And what, you know, industry is the most visible representation of human evolution.

Like human evolution is visible. I think the word innovation and evolution can almost be interchangeable, you know. And so what I, like I said before, this shift in something is simple. and as common as packaging can be the beginning of a much greater discussion about what should our industry serve ultimately. And, you know, like it's easy to point fingers at industry, but ultimately industry has been responding to what the public has asked for. The public has now people say, oh, the public didn't ask for plastic pollution. Of course not. But they did ask for convenience.

They did ask for low cost. And, you know, an industry responded to that. And so ultimately, we need people, everybody to say, we value life and we want healthy products. And we don't want plastic in our waterways. And we don't want toxic chemicals in our environments. Like that is the big shift. And then I think we have a much greater conversation about the new earth industry, this new world that we want to build. What will it be in service?

too. And are you trying to accelerate and advocate for that story as president of your organization? Absolutely. It is the thing that drives me more than any other single thing because I believe it's achievable. I truly believe it's achievable because we're doing it. Our company is doing it. We have integrated these principles and this philosophy around the sacredness of life and the overwhelmingly obvious fact that abundance in life comes from health, and we as an organization have a responsibility to integrate that fundamental truth in everything that we do. And so when I talk about health as a fundamental principle of Atlantic, we have the most comprehensive health and wellness program ever devised by a company. We spend millions of dollars on the health and wellness program for our employees. We also think about health when we think about our supplier partnerships.

We don't change partners every single year. We build long-term, strategic, healthy partnerships that are win-win. Our suppliers are all dear friends of mine. You know, healthy relationships. It's also the kind of relationships we want with our customers, enterprise-level relationships that are built on trust, that are built on shared value. And then finally, the products that we bring,

market, healthy products, healthy for the planet, healthy for people, healthy for industry. And so I've integrated, or we have integrated health as a fundamental principle of our organization, and it's changed everything. So I have a lot of follow-ups to that, Wes. The first one is healthy products for the planet. You mean healthier than the alternative, because the healthiest for the planet would be no plastics at all, right? Well, you know, I don't believe.

that we are meant to live like other animals. You know, like we obviously are unique to every other living thing. We have the ability to create outside the bounds of nature. That is a God-given gift made in the image of God. I think that actually means creators. And so, you know, I think that we, and when we're creating new things, whether it's music or a painting, or new packaging, there's nothing more exhilarating. I think most people would say they feel the most alive when they're creating. And I think that's because we are tapping into what we actually are,

which are creators. So I don't think we're meant to not consume anything and live like other animals in this sort of perfect harmony with nature. I think we've been given the gift to be able to create, but the thing that we've done is we haven't created within the bad. of these natural laws. You know, we have to create within the laws that say life is sacred and nature is, there is divinity in nature, you know, and there's consciousness in all of these things. And once we integrate those understandings into how we innovate, we can innovate all kinds of cool things and still have trade and engagement with organizations and industry.

It just, we're serving a new master that I believe is super achievable in our lifetime. If we innovate to the best of our abilities, but it's still lower down in the power structure than GDP and maximizing profits with the wrong prices, it's doomed to fail. So we're going to need either different cultural aspirations or and or more correct prices that include the externality. in the prices. Like, could you imagine if there was a three times or five times penalty for things that are not biodegradable that are left in the natural world and the oceans or in the waterways, your company would have huge demand instantly because people would want solutions. But right now, we're not willing as a culture to pay those extra costs. I mean, have you looked at data at all? is there data or what's your speculation, that if people truly knew the plastic crisis and the

fact that the technosphere outweighs all living things on earth and that plastic will soon outweigh fish in the oceans that it already outweighs all the living animals on earth on land, if people really understood with endocrine disruptors and everything, would they be willing to say, oh, I just bought this thing that was $40 from Amazon? a book that came in the box, but the book itself was wrapped in some plastic. I would be willing to pay $42 for that because the biodegradable packaging that wherever it gets left or discarded or recycled, it's either fully used or it fully biodegraded and it's not a negative impact on the world.

Do you think our population would choose such a thing or could they choose such a thing in the future? I absolutely do because I think it's important to remember that the reason that plastic Plastics are cheap is because there's been billions and billions of dollars invested in optimizing the supply chain for plastics. The reason they're cheap is there is there a byproduct of a barrel of crude oil and natural gas, which, you know, we're not using for transportation. They have to use it for something. Well, and they've also been incredibly subsidized, too. So, again, I do think that regulation and government have a role to play here. And like I mentioned earlier, EPR, like we have to.

to be we have to have to have an on-ramp for these new materials and you know we can't have a situation where every new material has a huge premium and actually i actually believe it's the responsibility of industry as well to help scale these things so as an example you know we we launched a venture firm new earth ventures about a year ago because we saw that a lot of the new exciting materials um nature-based feedstock materials that were being developed were not coming from a lot of the traditional packaging supply chain. They were coming from small technology companies with young people that were really fired up about bringing this new technology to market. And they needed an organization like Atlantic to really help them scale their technology.

And we have the ability to do diligence this stuff almost just by looking at it because we understand the industry so well. So we are embracing technologies that we know can scale. And so, like, as an example, we're working with one company that is creating plastics from seaweed. And I told them initially, I was like, when you guys perfect a pellet that will run through a traditional plastic extruder, call me. Because before that, you don't have anything. Because if you can't run it through all this existing infrastructure, it'll never scale. Well, about eight months ago, nine months ago, I got a call from the CEO. Hey, we've done it.

She sent me pictures. And I'm like, okay, you guys are running through existing extruders. Now your material is scalable. Now let's look at all the other areas where there's costs that we can drive out. And we've had a lot of success in bringing some of these materials, whether it's seaweed film. We worked with a company out of California to create a cold chain shipping cooler where the foam is backyard compostable and made from shrimp shells and food waste. When we first brought it to market, it won a bunch of awards. in one time magazine, Sustainable Innovation of the Year in 2023, but it was at a huge price premium.

But we worked for two years to optimize the manufacturing process and about 90 days ago got it to price parity with EPS coolers with traditional foam coolers. And we've picked up 100 new customers over the last four months. So like these things can scale. It just takes time and energy and effort and investment, you know. And so the good news is we have demand. People all over the world are saying, we want sustainable materials. We want to buy products that don't pollute the planet.

So it's the responsibility of industry with the help of governments to create on ramps so that consumers don't have to pay huge premiums. I don't think that that's the right argument that in order to create a transition, everyone's going to have to pay a lot more. We are proving that that's not true. So this is a transpartisan podcast. because I think the problems of overshoot and non-sustainability and climate change and everything is across the aisle. We're all part of it. But climate change is not favored with our current administration, as you're aware. But is the plastic crisis?

Is our current government paying attention to the issues you're raising here? They absolutely are. And one of the reasons I think that the plastic pollution, the waste crisis is something that we can all really rally behind is there is no pro-pollution constituency. There's no one out there going, let's put more plastic in the ocean. Well, I mean, you could argue that fossil companies and the chemical companies, DuPont, et cetera, are saying that at least implicitly, no? No, well, the reality is those companies, the plastic pollution crisis is the worst thing for them. I mean, if the petrochemical industry could snap their fingers and there not be a plastic pollution crisis, you damn right. They would do it in a heartbeat because it is not good optics for them. You know, now there's a lot of discussions over who's responsible for the crisis. And there you get into some debate. But nobody is in favor of the crisis. You know, there's a lot of, you know, computer. perspectives on how to solve it. One area where the waste crisis is gaining a lot of traction with the current administration is within the Maha movement because the chronic health epidemic and the waste crisis are super interrelated. You know, one of the mandates in the Maha order is about toxicity, you know, and we know that the waste crisis and chemical,

migration from certain types of packaging is a big part of a lot of these issues. And certainly, you know, food supply and things like that as well. But like when you look at the chronic health epidemic, you know, food and the things that we drink, the packaging that carries all that stuff is an integral part of that system and all of it has to be looked at. And so folks like Secretary Kennedy, who actually spoke at Atlantic packaging a few weeks ago at the chemicals. of Concern Conference, has expressed real interest in solving the waste crisis. And we are talking to Democrats. We are talking to Republicans and independents. And I get overwhelming agreement that this is something that we can all get together on. This can be a real bipartisan win. The other

place it can be a big win is between countries that may not like each other a lot. Because believe it or not, China doesn't like the plastic pollution crisis either. You know, so it could be an issue that the United States in China, the United States and India, the United States and the European Union, we can all come together on the plastic pollution crisis and try to save it. And I don't think you would have a lot of dissent, at least in the fact that we need to solve this problem. Well, I've had, I think you're aware, I've had Jeremy Granthamon twice, and I've had maybe 10 episodes on plastic and endocrine disrupting chemicals. And it does seem to be a bipartisan, nonpartisan issue. And especially with endocrine disrupting chemicals and the fact that we have

some amount of microplastics in our brains and in our guts, it seems to be a huge current issue. So let me ask you this. You seem to be an optimistic fellow, Wes. I am. I am. I am. I'm very bullish on all of this. I really think we can solve this problem, and I think as we do it, it will bring great joy to humanity. So paint me a picture 20 years from now. If everything goes, the stars are aligned, and assuming some of the other risk trajectories in our current meta-crisis, assume those away for the moment. What is the plastics and packaging industry look like in 20 years in a wildly successful? trajectory according to your vision. So I think you would see in, and I think this is the place we'll get to first.

With e-commerce direct-to-your-house shipments, all of the packaging would be super optimized where we would have, and some of this technology is already available, where you actually don't have a tremendous amount of packaging in a lot of these boxes because all of the parcels are being made on demand. like they're right sizing for the product itself to minimize the level of packaging. That would be one thing, using technology to minimize the amount of packaging. And then the packaging that is used would all be from nature-based feedstocks, ethically sourced, like sustainable forests, and would all be 100% recyclable. That's for your parcel shipments, non-food.

then what I would what I think is arguably an even bigger thing to celebrate if we can get there would be food packaging would all be compostable because the reality is recycling food packaging is always going to be difficult because you especially when you talk about things like raw protein chicken pork beef all that stuff is contaminated because it's got bacteria on it when you when you're packaging raw protein you've also got produce, you know, fruits, vegetables that have similar, maybe not quite as aggressive, but similar issues as well. And so you've got hard to recycle flexible packaging that has covered in microbes that are not healthy for humans. So what I see is if all of that packaging over time is home compostable, then when you unwrap your raw chicken and throw it on the grill, the film, the tray, everything just goes into your compost. And I, A lot of people I know have, you know, home composting units now. You know, I've got a mill.

It's a, and it looks like a trash can, and it dries out and dehydrates all of our food scraps, and then we take it and dump it into our compost pile outside and use it for our garden. I think that'll become a lot more commonplace. And the tech is on the horizon for that to happen, like you buy chicken and the tray and all the stuff, you just throw it in the compost? Absolutely. The trays in particular right now, there are a half a double. dozen companies that are making trays made from starch, like potato starch, that are fully compostable.

The film's a little more difficult because, again, the film in many cases, has barrier properties that prevents, like, oxygen, you know, and moisture vapor transition rates and things like that. And so those things are more difficult. But ultimately, I would see parcel packaging would be primarily fiber-based, highly recyclable, minimal. And then food, packaging would be overwhelmingly compostable packaging. I think you would see a lot more reusable too, especially in things like dish soap and shampoo and stuff that you're just going to use over and over and over again and having a significant container in your house that's easier to refill and probably some really innovative refill options that do make it more convenient

for people. I see all those is super achievable and it just takes ingenuity. let me, building on that, if that future arrives in 20 years, what portion of that came from a consciousness shift of individual humans, who call them consumers, I prefer humans, what percent from innovation and industry and what percent from government or equal parts all three? What is your guess? Well, the number one driver by far is human demand. I usually say consumer demand, but I'm with you. I don't love that word either, but humans demanding it. And believe it or not, like that threshold we've already crossed. If you 18 to 34 year olds today have more buying power than the baby boomers, that demographic in every single survey over the last two or three years, they value sustainability by like 85%. If you're a retail brand, that's everybody. If 85% of the largest buying demographic in the country is, asking for one thing, you are going to pivot to that one thing. And so that's why I like doing

podcasts like this. That's why we have a huge social media presence. That's why we're engaging with athletes and musicians. We are working to get the most influential people with the largest audiences in our culture to say, we want sustainability. Nature-based materials are awesome. They're fun. They're exciting. It's an acknowledgement of the beauty of this planet and how lucky we are to be here living on this beautiful earth. Like, we need people out there preaching this because when, you know, we have advocates, people like Kelly Slater and Travis Rice, when folks like that are out there saying, this is important, they've got a huge audience.

And that audience listens and goes, yeah, it is important. And then they start shopping with brands that are integrating these materials as a part of their brand. And that's what we say today. Packaging today is a brand attribute. You know, as a brand, your customers are judging you ethically on how you are packaging your products and the e-commerce space in particular, but really across the supply chain, companies are recognizing that. And so the demand leads to innovation in the right direction, and then we need government to step in and

say, this is a great phenomenon. We see it. And they need to talk to folks like me and others, what do you as industry need to accelerate this? And I'll give you one good example, and then I'll take a breath. Like for a big company that wants to transition away from plastic packaging to a fiber-based alternative, in most cases, that requires all new capital packaging equipment. I'll use an example. If you're a beverage company and you're using a six-pack ring, that plastic six-pack ring that's been choking turtle since I was a kid, okay, we have a fiber-based alternative that's fully curbside recyclable. If it ends up in the ocean, it breaks down because it's just made a paper.

The problem isn't the cost of the material. It's a little bit more expensive. You know, a six-pack ring is a half a penny. Our fishbone beverage carrier is four or five cents. Most of the beverage companies can get over that cost. You know, they can pass some of it on. What they can't get over is we've got, you know, a 20 facilities across the country, bottling facilities, and we have to buy all new packaging equipment.

And that's a hundred million dollar investment. But the government, the federal government could say, we're going to create a 30% tax credit for any packaging equipment, new packaging equipment to run sustainable materials. If they did that, there would be tremendous investment by industry in making the switch. Because industry wants to do it. The barrier is often the capital equipment. What did you say the four or five cent equivalent was made out of fish something? Fishbone, yeah. So, but if we do, if we hypothetically were to get rid of all the plastics and the super polluting things, does there then become a scaling limit on the alternatives like potato starch and fish bones? Yeah, I mean, potentially. I mean, we certainly have to consider that. That, you know, that's why like actually yesterday I was with the forestry service talking about sustainably managed forests. And we did some social media interviews that I'm going to share with. our customers and suppliers, because our industry needs to better understand the forestry industry, you know, and working forests are critical for this new economy that we're trying to

create. Again, I mentioned seaweed earlier. One of the reasons I really love seaweed as a feedstock is it does not take up arid land. So we don't have to grow it. Well, we do have to grow it, but we grow it in the ocean. It grows eight times faster than trees. It doesn't require pesticides. Everywhere it grows, it is enhancing the marine environment. And everywhere you have a sustainable seaweed farm is a de facto marine protected area because you can't fish there. So like it's kind of this incredible feedstock that enhances marine environments, grows really fast, doesn't require pesticides. And there's hundreds of species of seaweed. So what if we spent, you know, billions of dollars over the next, you know, 10 years really invests?

in how we can create feedstocks from seaweed. We got a lot of ocean. There's a lot of places to grow seaweed. You know, we got a lot of coastline. So those are the kind of questions that we have to be asking ourselves. And it's why I don't like a lot of feedstocks that are made from things like corn. You know, I don't think corn is a good feedstock for plastics, you know, because it requires arid land, most of it's genetically modified, covered in pesticides.

It's not the right way to go. So let me briefly turn to what might be considered packaging public and enemy number one, which is single-use plastic. Correct. I would agree with that. Why is single-use plastic still so difficult to recycle effectively, and is there any realistic path forward to somewhat closing the loop on that category? Yes and no. I mean, there are a lot of single-use plastic packaging items that just need to go away. They're not necessary. That we've got great alternatives, and they're just not

necessary. There's a lot of single-use plastic items, though, that, you know, are pretty ubiquitous, and there's not a lot of great alternatives, and the alternatives are super expensive. And, you know, so like I mentioned before, like three-dimensional rigid plastics are pretty easy to recycle if you have the right technology. The, interestingly enough, like, there are 10 states in the United States that have bottle bills, which is basically like a deposit return system where it's like the old days, like you pick up a can or a bottle and you get a nickel for it or a dime for it. Every state that has a bottle bill where they put a value on the bottle, the return, has the highest recycling rates in the country. If you look at the 50 states and the

recycling rates, the top 10 all have bottle bills because it, you know, you create a financial incentive for someone to pick up that litter. So I think that's a really good solution. Now, there's a lot of nuance. I mean, there's a lot of costs that. You know, there's a lot of costs that. go into implementing a bottle bill. And, you know, whether the beverage companies cover that cost or the retailers cover that cost or governments cover that cost, those are big debates. But I think we have systems out there for certain types of plastic that we can create better circularity. It seems that Europe is ahead of the United States on this and other plastics issues. Is that fair? Absolutely fair. They use a stick approach over there, which is like you're required to sort a

lot of your recyclables at your curbside. You know, you got a glass bin and a plastic bin and a paper bin and a food scrap bin. And if you do it wrong, they fine you. So it's a real stick approach, but it does work. And I think some of that is worth considering in this country. I mean, we're more of a don't tread on me culture. And I don't like a lot of government oversight. And we like carrots, too, if they're comfortable and convenient. Yeah. And that's. And that's why I like the idea of bottle bills because it's just basically saying, hey, we're going to pay you if you return this stuff. And again, like if you go to places like Vermont where they have bottle bills and they have, you know, a really impressive waste infrastructure, you know, you don't see trash on the highways. You know, you don't see trash in the communities.

I mean, there are ways to do it with the carrot. But like most things in life, it probably is going to take carrots and sticks both. Yeah. seriously, the combination of those two. So Atlantic packaging, your company, has become an industry leader in pushing forward more ecologically oriented packaging and stories about more sustainable futures, largely because of your efforts, Wes. So how does your love for nature and your commitment to being in service of life, as you've said, drive your leadership of Atlantic packaging. Yeah, I mean, it's an integral part of everything I am and how I acknowledge myself in the greater

tapestry of life. You know, this is a deeply spiritual thing for me. And the realization about what Atlantic could do as an organization, that the greater good that we could serve, when I saw that, I leaned in really heavily. And the beautiful thing about my journey is the more I leaned in, the more effort I put towards it, the more passion I brought to it, the more awesome people showed up. You know, this mission really resonated with people. And the level of talent that I have around me today is beyond anything I could have ever fathomed. I also work with tons of people that I adore. I absolutely adore. I mean, they bring their A game every single day. And it's so much fun because we really, we know that we're making an impact on the world.

You know, and we talk a lot about legacy. I mean, if you could define one thing that all humans all over the planet since the beginning of time have in common, I would make an argument is that all people love their children. You know, that is not cultural. Every, every culture since the beginning of time loves their children. And this is what that is, this is about. This is about the love of our children and the world we are leaving them. And when you frame it like that, to me, why wouldn't everybody jump on board? We should care intimately about the world that we are leaving our children and our children's children and well beyond that.

And to me, what I see is we are at an inflection point in our world. We are going through a global awakening around the divinity that exists within nature, about the sacredness of life and our world. role in the tapestry of life. And we have a real opportunity to wake up right now and begin to innovate in that direction. And I actually think we can create this more beautiful world that my author friend Charles Eisenstein says all the time, the more beautiful world that our hearts know is possible. It's not going to be delivered to us. We need to create that world. And we're designed to create. That's what we are as creators. We just have to have a North Star. And to me, healthy life is that North Star. And it is in service to future

generations, generations yet unborn. So this is something I thought about, actually, the first time when you and I talked a few months back, between us and a regenerative culture and a better future than the default is what I refer to as the economic superorganism, which is a global culture optimizing for profits, tethered to energy and ecosystem impact, where corporations and governments are riding shotgun on the economic superorganism. You run a private company. Atlantic packaging is privately held rather than public, meaning that you don't have the financial responsibilities to shareholders in the conventional way that an IBM or Walmart or Home Depot might.

So how does this give you an advantage and more flexibility when trying out new packaging innovations and systems that are better for humanity in the planet and the millions of dollars you spent on the health and well-being of your employees, et cetera? There's no doubt that being privately held gives me a level of flexibility that is hugely advantageous, especially in the early parts of this, because I had to make a lot of decisions that did not make sense on paper. However, it is a fundamental truth of business that the companies that innovate the best typically do the best. And we have a culture of being highly innovative. And I know a lot of publicly traded companies that have huge R&D budgets because they understand that like if we're

the company that brings the best products to market that meet the needs and demands of customers, we will succeed. You know, and I mean, you can look at the electric car, you know, as a really good example. Like electric cars today, I drive one. It's awesome. I don't want a gas car. My electric car performs way better than a gas car. You know, and so like we, if we have a North Star that we're innovating towards, we can make products that are awesome. And that's not just privately held companies. That's any company.

But certainly, as a privately held company, it gave us a lot of advantages and continues to. And it allows us to be more long-term thinkers. But the other piece of this is the game has changed a lot. because of social media and media in general, industry can't really hide anymore. You know, like the everyday regular people have great insight into who the bad actors are and have great insight into which companies are producing good products, healthy products, and which ones aren't. And the media revolution, social media gives industry, an accountability factor that is at a level it's never had before. And it's still pretty

new, but that is changing things a lot. I mean, people know that there's going to be a TikTok video by some kid that's got a million followers talking down about their product because it showed up wrapped in single-use plastic. That is a big differentiator because the industries are going to serve consumer demand. So what you're saying is, even though they're there's not a physical externality price on some of these products imposed. There is a de facto indirect social externality imposed. Huge. And that is growing exponentially. And it's, by the way, and it's not political either. You know, especially if you look at people under 40, it doesn't matter what state they live in.

It doesn't matter if they're Republicans or Democrats. Young people really, because they grew up with this mess. You know, and I employ a lot of young people. I employ a lot of people under the ages of 40, and they're all over the political spectrum, but boy, they harmonize around this. And we can't do it without that. You know, like, if industry continues to serve the same masters of cost, convenience, and comfort, you know, then this won't work. The reason that I feel so positive about it is because the world is waking up. And I actually credit the COVID era more than anything else. Those few years drew bright lights on a lot of areas of our world that were messed up. And I think that's what you're seeing right now is the aftermath of everybody going,

wow, look under the covers. We got it. We got a mess here. And so, again, we're pivoting in a direction and we're innovating in that direction. And I also think as we have success, and I'm watching this, a lot of public companies, a lot of our customers that are public companies, a lot of our suppliers that are public companies are going, man, what you guys are doing is awesome. Can we partner with you guys? Can we innovate with you guys? I'm even getting calls from direct competitors saying, hey, I know we're competitors, but man, what you guys are doing is really changing our industries. There's got to be ways we can collaborate. And there absolutely are. I mean, how cool is that? I have direct competitors and we can find an agreement field. on helping to advance this new technology because we need more people buying it. And Atlantic can't sell all of it.

We're not a one-stop shop for the world. So aligning ourselves with like-minded companies, even if their competitors, is a pretty amazing phenomenon that I never saw happening in my career, but it's happening. Well, it would have to happen if we're in service of life. Correct. So let me ask you this. You earlier painted a picture of 20 years from now, kind of the best case on the packaging. And you gave some examples.

What would be a few areas of legislation right now that the United States government or the state governments could enact that would help the accelerate the innovation towards reduction of single use plastics, very minimal plastics in. direct to consumer and those that would be compostable and, you know, the chicken trays that you throw into your backyard. What would be some things that the government could do to help you and your competitors and the industry and the consumers of these things? Yeah, there's several things. One I mentioned earlier, we need an incentive, even if it's just for four or five years, to help industry invest in the capital equipment to make these transitions. You know, the nice thing about making investments in capital equipment to run these materials is also every time you buy a new piece of equipment because of the way technology works,

it's going to be more energy efficient. It's going to run faster. It's going to produce less waste. I mean, new equipment, you know, with the way that evolution of technology is gone, gives you a lot of advantages beyond just being able to run this more sustainable material. But that's a big one. The other one that's far and away is my hot button issue, and I talk to a lot of people in D.C. about it. We need radical recycling reform in this country. There's actually an act that was

drafted by my friends at the recycling partnership that's circulating around Congress right now called the Circle Act that is about a 30% tax credit for new recycling equipment, whether that's by a municipality, a recycling center, or a company like Atlantic. Like, you know, three years ago, we invested in recycling equipment because there's a certain type of plastic packaging that we sell quite a lot of and we felt like we were the right people to recycle it. So we we pioneered some programs with some of our big beverage customers where after they use this material, we collected and recycle it. Well, like you want more companies like Atlantic who aren't really in the recycling business traditionally. I never thought I'd be in a recycling business. It just made too much sense. But you want to

incent companies like Atlantic and other companies to buy recycling equipment to create close loops between businesses, and we want every recycling center in America to look like an Amazon distribution center. You want to walk in there and it be high speed, robots, vision, artificial intelligent, because the more efficiently we can sort materials and the cleaner those materials are, the more likely we can make solid quality new products from those materials. And it's the biggest no-brainer that there is because the demand for recyclables by the supply chain is humongous. We've got $30 billion that we're burying in the ground every year. That would be amazing feed stocks that companies absolutely want. We just have this broken, you know, discombobulated,

no standards, you know, recycling system that needs a total overhaul. So that's one. And then the other piece is we need to expand industrial composting and make that as ubiquitous as curbside recycling. Where I live in Charleston, we actually have an industrial composting site right here in the county. And the interesting thing is private industry has just grown up around that. So we have a company here locally compost now. You put your scraps in it. And every Monday, they pick up the black bin. And it's a pay service.

But private industry creates jobs. You know, it's great. But that's just because we have industrial composting here. And all that is is land. It's not big equipment. You need a tractor and, you know, 10 acres of land. I mean, so that's something that we could really scale too. So, yeah, those are a few things.

I also think these alternative material companies that are bringing products to market from like seaweed and mycelium and hemp, those people need a lot of help. They probably should pay no taxes. So I have a lot of more questions on plastics, energy, sustainable supply chains, et cetera. But in our personal conversations in the past, you've told me about, your own personal and spiritual journey that led you to this place. And I hope you don't mind sharing that a little bit publicly. So I'll just ask you, how did your personal healing and spiritual journey transform how you lead in this business at Atlantic? It was fundamental. I mean,

you know, plain and simple. And I'm not, I'm not shy about it, you know, like I'm the, The personal work was integral to the awakening around all of these perspectives. And I don't know, about eight or ten years ago, I was just in a dark place. I was in a dark place. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. I was working in a company. I was pretty good at it.

But I didn't really have much of a purpose. and I was pretty depressed. And, you know, but there was this thing inside of me that just kept telling me there's more. There's more here. There's more life. And so I've always been an infinitely curious person. And I like to say if you want to walk the spiritual path, curiosity has a really good quality to have because that curiosity led me down a lot of different roads. And I studied a lot of spiritual traditions, some, you know, that are pretty primary to the world and others that are.

aren't. And then ultimately, it led me to plant medicine, to psychedelic plant medicine. And that work fundamentally changed everything about me. I think in the early, in the early work, I used to say, up until the point that I found medicine, the only spiritual question I was asking was, is there a God? well, I got that question answered real fast. And so the question after, is there a God, when you get the yes, there absolutely is a God, the next question is, well, what is God? And so that question has taken me in a lot of different directions. And I don't think it's one that you'll actually ever answer.

But working with these medicines, I was able to heal myself in profound ways. I mean, I was able to heal myself with the help and support of a lot of incredible teachers in fundamental ways, you know, that healed things that I didn't even know were broken. But over time, what primarily healed was my mind, you know, and my mind as what I started to realize is for most of my life, my mind had been in service to fear. You know, like fear, fear, fear, create borders, create walls, protect, protect, protect. Sometimes that was real obvious and sometimes it was real subtle. But ultimately, like, my mind was just obsessed with protection.

and it's really hard to be creative from that place. But what the medicine really helped do is heal my mind. And as my mind started to calm down and not be so obsessed with protection, it started for looking for something else to serve. And I like to believe what it began to serve was my heart. And I began to understand that human beings are a part of a beautiful cosmic story. and we're this incredible spiritual beings having this human experience. And I started to awaken to the divinity that was all around me. I just started seeing how conscious these plants were and how

intelligent they were. And not just the psychedelic plants. I just started seeing how radically intelligent nature was. It's perfect. You want to talk about circularity, closed loops. Nature is perfect. and the math that exists in nature is so radical and so elegant. I think Einstein even said at the end of his life that he had no doubt that God exists because the math that governs the universe is way too elegant. And those are the things I was witnessing. And so then as the personal healing really began to take root, I started to understand that this business that I was in, this work that I was doing,

there was a way for me to integrate this healing, not only inside of me, but in an outward way. Like, I could reflect this healing in the work that I was doing and in a real tangible way. And all of a sudden, it wasn't all esoteric, you know, woo. It was like, no, like, there's a real tangible way that you can take this awakening to the sacredness of life and the consciousness that you're, you're, you're witnessing all around you and integrate that into what you're doing and create beauty, you know, and that realization and journey has been radical for me and beautiful. And it's given my life purpose that I never imagined possible. And as I mentioned before, the greatest gift, it has brought the most beautiful people into my life. Because when you are in a vibration of health

and healing, people respond to it. And people want to be a part of it. And they want to heal. And then they want to bring their best game. And it also became very egalitarian. And like I started to realize that each one of us is holding incredible gifts. And as we heal, those gifts begin to bloom and emerge. And I started witnessing this happening all around me and inside of me.

And then all of the people in my life, we started harmonizing, you know, harmonizing our gifts. And it wasn't hierarchical. And it wasn't, there was no jealousy. It was just everybody being in all of each other's gifts and working toward a common good, a legacy good. And it's created a level of joy in my life that's hard to put into words. So you are a president of a major company and it's unlikely to hear this story from those sorts of people. And maybe that makes you the best sort of spokesperson for that.

sort of a healing journey. So what would you like to share with people who are generally skeptical of these approaches of healing, psychedelics, plant medicine, et cetera? I don't know that there's anything that I can say that can change anybody's mind necessarily. All I can tell you is that this work changed my life in profound ways. And every perspective that comes out of me, and everything that I do in the world that is positive and good is a direct derivative of this. And if some people don't agree with that, that's okay. I'm not a salesperson for plant medicine, even though sometimes I wish that I was. I mean, yes, do I believe this is a path that can liberate humans in the way that it liberated me?

You bet. And people who are ready, there's a lot of great. opportunities to integrate this work into your life. But again, you know, I don't know that it's my job to be out there pushing it on people. And there are many paths. I mean, that's the, one of the, you know, the beautiful things about our planet and about humanity is the diversity. I mean, I think Jerry Garcia said it. There's so many roads, you know, and this just happened to be the road that really worked for me. And it was damn efficient. And is, if I might ask, are you talking talking mushrooms or ayahuasca or what are you talking about?

I've worked with with many, many, many different medicines. But the medicine that really changed my life was Iboga, which is a tree. It's the root bark of a tree that grows in West Africa. You hear a lot today on the news about Ibogaine, which is actually a derivative of Iboga. It's one of the alkaloids that come from that plant. But I work with the actual plant itself, which has a lot more. than just that one alkaloid. But, you know, as you're seeing, I mean, the world's waking up to the miraculous, you know,

nature of these, of these plants. And I don't believe that God put any plan on this planet that's bad. They're not bad plants. These are allies that are our birthright. And, you know, I get that it's scary. It was scary for me a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot for a long time. but a lot of the spiritual path is about integrating fear. It says it in the Bible, although I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

I will fear no evil. I mean, that's not about not being scared. It's about like, I'm going to walk through the valley of the shadow of death. I'm going to be scared, but I'm going to trust. And that's what this word taught me how to do was trust that we are all children of God and we are protected and we are here to learn and evolve. And I believe we are in an massive learning right now. So how do you think about the relationship between personal healing and systemic change on the planet?

I mean, Ibogain or Iboga plant, what little I know about it has to do with healing addictions. You could argue, and it wouldn't be that hard to defend, that our entire culture is addicted to comfort, convenience, status. We're in addictive culture and social media and algorithms and. and 24-7 access to stimulation are not helping. But how do you see the personal healing as a microcosm for systemic change? Well, you know, I like to say that sustainability ultimately is just an outer reflection of an inner commitment to health and well-being. Like, if we want to heal the planet, we need healthy humans. Healthy humans will innately know how to heal the planet because, as I mentioned before,

One of the things that's really hard to describe to people in words until you've experienced it is deep spiritual and emotional healing has a profound impact on your inner being, like a profound impact. And as you do this healing, the things that used to bother you, the mental chatter, the obsessions, the addictive tendencies, whether it's alcohol or your cell phone, it really works. to remedy those things. And when you get out of that constant obsessive mind chatter, like Bob Marley said, emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can set us free. Like that was what he was talking about, is that liberating from that mind chatter. And medicine helps a lot with that. And so as your mind calms down, all the gifts that are within you, begin to emerge. And so like that's what happened for me. Like all of a sudden, like all these things that I'm super passionate about and I'm like, oh gosh, I can integrate these passions into what I do every

day. And I'm not, I'm just not in my head like I used to be. And so I ultimately think like you talk about how we save the world. We need everybody living their Dharma. Everyone has one. Every single human being on this planet has immense God given gifts. Emits. And the thing that blocks, from those gifts is this fear-based mindset, these shackles that permeate our mind. And the reason to do spiritual and emotional healing is to break the bondage of fear and allow the essence of what you are to emerge. And it's beautiful. And then you harmonize with other people doing the same work. And that is what will save this planet. Integrated, awake human beings living their Dharma harmonizing together for the common good will save this planet. And we have to have enlightened

leaders. We've got to have enlightened leaders. We've got to have people that understand this in positions of power. And that's where I hope we can go. So what kind of transformational work would you recommend to other leaders so they can better lead in this changing world? First of all, have a teacher. We all need teachers. All of us. It keeps us humble. humble, you know, and whether that is a spiritual advisor, a life coach, a therapist, have a teacher. I've got like 12, you know, and I've got a whole network of teachers, and they all help me understand myself. And I rely on them for their perspectives, too, because if there's one thing I've realized, I do not know everything. And teachers hold us accountable. They keep us humble. That's another thing. We need humble leaders. it's very difficult to find someone who's got a consistent, dedicated practice of working with teachers who have an ego and who are arrogant. I rarely see it. I see it a lot with people who don't. And so, and the other piece is consistency. You know, like it's not enough just say, well, yeah, I got a therapist. I see that person every few months when I'm having a problem. Nah, man, it has to be, this work has to be a part of your daily routine. It's like lifting weights. You want to get strong? Can't lift once a month. You're going to list two or three days a week. It's the same thing with this. This is about mental and emotional strength.

You have to prioritize it. I prioritize it. It's a huge part of my life because all of the good in my life is a derivative of that consistency. So that's one of them. And then you need to have at least one spiritual tradition that you go deep on. And it doesn't matter what that is. It can be plant medicine. It can be Christianity.

It can be Buddhism. It can be Judaism. You know, it can be the red road path. You know, like any of these. but you need to go deep on one. And then all these other ones, you can sprinkle in. For me, I went deep on the Iboga tradition. But boy, I practice Buddhist meditation.

I love a lot of the Hindu text. I read Rumi and Hafiz on a regular basis. I love the teachings of Christ. I'm doing a class right now with a rabbi. So I'm sprinkling in all these traditions. And all of them are ultimately saying the same thing. if you get to the real deep. And that's the other thing, like, we're killing each other over these religions that are all at their root saying the same thing.

At least that's been my experience. So, again, have a good teacher or a couple and choose one spiritual tradition that really speaks to you. Go deep on that one. And then if you're interested in other ones, just incorporate those. And they'll be super additive. They'll be super additive. And then I guess the final thing I would say is take really good care of your body. Your body is the sacred vessel.

And if you're not healthy, your body's not healthy, then this is a really hard thing to do. You know, spend a lot of time outside, sunlight, nature, good water, clean food. You know, like if you, and that's in the Bible too, like, you know, the container is sacred. You know, take care of your container. And I think it's also a really good parallel for packaging. You know, like, you know, we need sacred containers for packaging. You know, that's what I'm trying to, trying to innovate is sacred containers that are acknowledging life. Thank you. I agree with you on the religions and the core message is all the same.

Do you have any additional advice for the listeners of this program, especially young humans who are, you know, growing up and becoming aware of the oceans and the plastics and the biodiversity and climate and our polarization and all. all the things. What do you tell to young people? You said you have a lot of young people that work at at Atlantic. Use your voice. Use your voice. You know, use your voice because it's powerful. And, you know, and you have to fall in love with life too. Like fall in love your life. I'll get emotional when I say it, but like love your life. And if you don't love your life, ask why, because it's a gift. It's an absolute gift. And I'm 47 years old or almost 47. And I'm, can tell you, man, I was 20 a week ago. Man, it goes fast. You know, like this whole human experience is a blink, you know, and if we're suffering through it, like, you know, and I get a lot of people have

really difficult situations and I, and I have great sympathy for that. You know, a lot of us also suffered needlessly, you know, and there's a lot of help out there today. There's a lot of help out there today. And there's beautiful, you know, techniques and technology and spiritual traditions that can support you living your very best life, you know? And so as for young people, like, figure out what your passion is. That's the thing I tell people mainly. We, we, our culture is so messed up. I mean, we create these like infrastructures and we tell kids, you have to operate inside of this box. You got to get straight A's in high school. You got to go to a good college. You know, you'll probably drink a lot in college too, but that's okay. You know, that's part of the initiation

of being an adult. Then you got to get out and you got to get a nine to five job and, you know, you need to have two and a half kids and have a house in a neighborhood. And, and like that is so unconduasive to human happiness for so many people. And so like, I say throw all that away. If that makes you happy, go for it. And a lot of people, maybe it does. And that's the route they should go. But ultimately, like, as a young person, tap into what you love. Whatever you love is what you are meant to do. And if you can create a career, if you If you love to write, do that for your career. If you love music, do that for your career.

If you love art, do that for your career. If you think you enjoy being a salesperson and you love talking to people, get a sales job and sell something you really care about and believe in. Because people who find a career doing something that they love will love their career. And they'll do a great job and they'll probably make good money doing it. But so many of us get talked into doing things that were miserable. doing because we think that that's the way it's supposed to be. And it's all just matrix cultural BS that doesn't matter. Like you there's a lot of ways to make a living. And there's a lot

of ways to make a living that will give you great joy and happiness. And the other thing is money isn't everything. You know, there's a lot more to life. But I don't know. I don't have any great secrets other than follow your passion, use your voice and be healthy. Those would be my three. What do you, I ask these questions of all my guests, Wes, what do you care most about in the world? Peace, peace, man. Harmony. Peace and harmony, man. I, I truly believe that we can create a beautiful world. I really do. I see it happening in pockets all around me. I see it happening in communities all around me. We've got to get back down to the essence of what we actually are. And I believe what we actually are is love. You know, and like I said earlier, one thing that harmonizes all people is love for their children.

Let's start there. Let's start with love for our children. Okay, let's all agree that we love our children. And then let's build a world based on that. You know, and we need leaders talking about this kind of stuff. We need leaders. We need spiritually enlightened leaders that are having these discussions in the public sphere. You know, we can't be afraid to have these discussions.

And, yeah, I, I, Again, I have great hope for humanity. I just, I don't believe we're supposed to end in destruction. I believe we're supposed to wake up, create the more beautiful world, liberate ourselves, and revel in it, revel in the work, revel in creating this more beautiful world. And for me, I see a real pathway to do it. I see a real pathway to do it.

And acknowledging the sacredness of life is fundamental. So in the same way that COVID woke people, up to all the packaging that they were getting. Rit large, these last 10 or 20 years are a wake-up call for our species. It's a right of passage for our entire species. Look at what we have wrought. And now people like you are rolling their sleeves up and doing their part. Yeah, I mean, what got us here was we confused happiness with comfort.

Somewhere along the line, and it probably came from a world that was really uncomfortable. We just overcorrected. You know, we overcorrected, and we began to worship comfort, and we convinced ourselves that comfort is where happiness comes from. And it's not. You know, growth requires friction. You know, the hardest things in my life have had the greatest gifts. And everything that I enjoy doing the most are things I've actually struggled at. Struggled at learning to play the guitar.

Struggled at learning to serve. Struggled at learning to lift weights to get strong. But those are also the things I love the most. You know, like we need struggle. Like that, that's how we grow. And so we've created this world that is not acknowledging that. And it doesn't mean everything has to be hard, but we want to have our priorities in the right place. And we want to have our innovative, creative spirit in the right place. And humans are amazing. When we work together, what we can build and create is unfathomable. You know, we just need to serve the right master. And it's not comfort. And it may not be GDP.

tethered to energy, tethered to ecosystem impact, at least the way it's, it is now. So if you could wave a magic wand, Wes, and there was no personal recourse to you or your business or reputation or anything, what is one thing you would do to improve human and planetary futures? Oh, well, that's easy. Abundant, clean energy. I mean, abundant, free, clean energy. I think that solves everything. I mean, you know, energy is the thing that is such a struggle. Like, you know, our world runs on energy and we just don't have great options for abundant clean energy. If we didn't change the incentive structure, abundant clean energy, we would strip the earth bear like locusts, if everything was so cheap. Unless we change our value systems or the incentive structure,

if I had abundant clean energy, cheap energy, I would order all kinds of, kinds of things, irrespective of their plastic packaging. I mean, I wouldn't, but I think the average person would. I think when you look at all the problems in the world and, you know, all the issues that industries created, it can really go back to a problem of energy. And I do think that, you know, a culture, we are going to evolve. We need energy. That's just fundamental. Like, we're not going to live in a world where we don't have energy. I agree. And clean energy is better than dirty energy. And that's why I'm really intrigued on a lot of these new technologies, you know, fusion technology things, even modular nuclear as maybe a stepping stone where you

have dense, clean energy. And there's a lot of places around the world that are implementing that, you know, and there's places in Europe that are, that have a much cleaner, greener grids than we do. So I think some of that technology is already here. But you said one thing. I think Clean energy probably has to be coupled with about 25 or 30 other things to be sure that we don't have the scenario that you articulated. But that was the first thing that popped into my mind. You know, world peace. Maybe that would be probably should be up there too. So before I let you go, I want to make sure that you give the best advice to the listeners beyond making better consumption decisions.

Are there ways that individuals that are paying attention to the plastics crisis? and what you've outlined here can push for transformative change in the way we produce and consume packaging beyond their individual purchasing decisions. Yeah, I mean, that is a big one. I mean, you know, like be a conscious consumer. I mean, you know, really consider the companies that you're spending your money with, you know. And, I mean, because that ultimately is going to have the biggest impact. You know, the supply chain will respond to what consumers won't.

And so to me, that's, that's, that's pretty fundamental. And, you know, do the things in your life that, you know, are more responsible, like, you know, reuse when you can, you know, be conscious about recycling, you know, also pick up litter. You know, like that's one of the things I never used to do, but I do a lot now. Everywhere I go, if I see litter, I pick it up and throw it away. I mean, little things like that can go a long way. I think the other piece that I would really encourage, especially people that have resources and means, is to invest in conservation. You know, today, of all the philanthropic dollars in the world, only 3% goes to conservation.

I mean, it is an abysmally low number. And we also need industry investing in conservation because industry has the biggest impact. And it's abysmally low, the money that comes from industry to conservation. And an individual people can help too. I mean, every dollar matters. But we need to be finding, you know, conserving wild places. We need to be, you know, creating ecosystems that are healthy for biodiversity, for plants and animals. We need to understand that, like, all of these are sentient beings that, you know, like us eradicating them out of our irresponsibility and blindness is the greatest sin.

And conservation is the remedy. Yeah. Thank you for that. I fully agree. If you were to come back on this show, Wes, in 9. months or a year from now, what is one topic that you are particularly passionate about that is relevant to human futures that you would be willing to take a deep dive on? Because I'm guessing we didn't cover all the topics that you're passionate about and are relevant to human futures.

Well, like I said, I love the conservation conversation. And I love the conversation about industry's role in conservation. I think the other, and I'll throw up two, I do think enlightened leadership is really is really a topic that we need to discuss and how do we create infrastructure and our culture to support leaders um you know like when i i was blessed of with working in some groups here in charleston with other business leaders uh for many years of my younger career and that was so additive for me you know like coaching and spiritual mentorship for leaders that is a critically important thing because we need enlightened leaders and everyone is capable of having these spiritual awakenings. It's just not taught. You know, it's not part of our curriculum. And it's a deeply internal work. And I think for the most part, the West just doesn't understand it.

And so medicine is one avenue to awakening that pathway. And I would love to discuss what creating infrastructure, school, support systems for spiritual leadership, you know, and I don't mean just spiritual leadership as preachers and pastors. I mean spiritual leaderships in medicine, in industry, in all these different areas of our world, I think that's fundamental. We've parsed all the important tapestry of emotions and qualities of our ancestral environment into dollars. And so I think we do seek status and respect and community. But right now in our system, we just value dollars and wealth. And I think what you're describing is we're widening that out to include other things, health and well-being and respect and skills and peace and all those things. So I do think,

I agree with you, we need enlightened leadership to kind of pave the way towards a wider aspirations for our culture and our species. Yeah. And I'll say one more thing, too, because I want to sure that I articulate this. Like, profit is not a bad thing. It's just a bad master. Like what I like to say at Atlantic, we have to be profitable. If we're not profitable, all of this goes away. I can't do any of this work if we're not profitable. But profit, we're not in the business of optimizing profit. That is not the purpose of our business. Our purpose as a business is to serve the greater good. And profit supports that purpose. And I think every business in every industry can adopt that. Hey, we need healthy profit, but that is not our purpose. Our purpose is to serve the

greater good, and depending on what type of company you are, that greater good can be a very wide swath. I mean, there's lots of greater goods. For us in the packaging business, it's primarily solving this waste crisis, but there's a lot of other greater goods that need to be solved, too. And if we could just get businesses to awaken to the fact that that actually will bring us a lot more profit ultimately when we're serving the greater good, and it will make us feel like really good humans, like that we're contributing to a better world instead of just the bottom line. It's a lot more fun, too. Thank you for your leadership in this, and I'm really keen to see what unfolds with Atlantic and your work in the coming years.

Thank you, Wes Carter, for your time and for your continued work in service of the greater good. Thanks, Nate. I really appreciate it. Joy talking to you. If you enjoyed or learned from this episode of The Great Simplification, please, follow us on your favorite podcast platform. You can also visit the great simplification.com for references and show notes from today's conversation. And to connect with fellow listeners of this podcast, check out our Discord channel. This show is hosted by me, Nate Hagan's, edited by No Troublemakers media, and produced by Misty Stinnett, Leslie Batlutz, Brady Hyen and Lizzie Siriani.