The Greatest Generation - Casualty Friday (DS9 S6E19)

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

When Captain Sisko gets interviewed by Errol Morris for a documentary about the Dominion War, it’s a chance for him to get everything off his chest. But when Sisko’s choice of conspiracy partners goes off-script, their plan will have explosive consequences. What’s the greatest distance ever measured? How evident is criminality on a hardness scale? How many vowels does it take to ruin a performance? It’s the episode that is fastidious about dental hygiene, but no other kind of hygiene.

Priority 1 message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Hey friends of Disodo. Before today's episode, we just wanted to take a moment to talk about the historic labor actions being taken by writers and actors in the American Film and Television industry. If you're a fan of the work done by the people who make Star Trek, we hope you'll join us in standing in solidarity with the folks who actually bring these adventures to life. Over the past several years, the AMPTP, the organization that represents the American Film and Television Production Studios, have reduced the profit from movies and TV going to workers. And in so doing,

they've attempted to weaken the labor unions that represent those workers. They wouldn't even engage the unions on many issues in their negotiations. And so a strike was the only course of action to take. Adam, Wendy and I have been having a lot of internal discussions about how best to stand with the unions and we are continuing those conversations in a dynamic situation. We're doing our best to understand where the picket lines are in these digital spaces,

and we would never intentionally cross one. With the information we have, we feel like we can do more good talking about and supporting the strike and continuing our show as planned. We'll keep you informed about what all this means for greatest trek specifically. Today we're making a contribution to the Entertainment Community Fund. This fund exists to help all the people whose livelihoods have been put on hold because the AMPTP refuses to negotiate

in good faith with the unions. It provides financial support for writers, actors, and all the thousands of laborers who make the shows that we talk about here and without whom we wouldn't have Star Trek to cast pot about. Those folks are all out of work because billionaires, company shareholders, and the executives of these companies don't want to compromise on the length of their yachts. We hope you'll join us in supporting entertainment workers in a challenging time, especially after they've already endured several years of challenges brought on by the pandemic

and season two of Star Trek Picard. We've set up a page where you can also contribute. It's at friendsofdecotoforlabor.com. That's friendsofdecotoforlabor.com. That's friendsofdisotoforlabor.com. Link in the episode description. Okay, now let's get on with the show. Welcome to the greatest generation, Deep Space Nine. It's a Star Trek podcast. Like a couple of guys who are a little bit embarrassed about having a Star Trek podcast. I'm Adam Pranica.

I'm Ben Harrison. Oh. We did it. He got there. and Harrison. Oh, we did it. We got there. This was, we had a recent mail call and somebody included a couple of cans of gin gimlet from Venus Spirits. It's like a pre-mix cocktail in a can. Pretty good. That Venus logo looks like money. It looks like a premix cocktail in a can. Pretty good.

That Venus logo looks like money. It looks like the money font. It kind of is the money font, yeah. It's got Venus gin blend one with lime juice, cucumber, and natural flavors. Can you shave a woman's legs with it? I don't know. Is that something you're supposed to be able to do

with a cocktail? Well, I mean, the name naming something Venus made me think of the shaving product of the same name. Yeah, I don't, I will say that this beverage is my Venus, it's my fire, my desire. I'm gonna text thread with a couple of friends from back in Seattle and for whatever reason like Lots of pictures are being traded back and forth like random shit like what we're up to one of my buddies

Shared a fairly innocuous picture of a big bag of flossers Like those those plastic flossers. There's ones that have a little have a little Like a little u-shape, and then there's a bit of dental floss across the gap. The kind you've seen thrown into the street and on the sidewalk all the time. Yeah.

And this is- I am very a fisterious about dental hygiene, but no other kind of hygiene. And much like the famous newdman in a eBay sales ad for a teacattle situation, I noticed something else on the counter. And when I clicked and enhanced, I noticed what could only be the bottom

of two personal shavers. Wow. And I was like, hey, what's going on with those two personal shavers? And then that started a whole thing. One for the face, one for the nards. Was that the deal? I mean, no, this friend of mine has two body shavers.

Wow. Two for the body. It must be a hairy friend. I'm trying to think about which friend of yours this could be. Yeah, I think you know, I think you know which hairy friend this is. Yeah, my mind was immediately went to one person. The thing about personal shavers is they don't come like cordless drills with battery pack. You know, you can't just slap another magazine in there to keep going. You get the interchangeable Makita. Yeah, if you're a person of a certain amount of

forestation, you'll need to just switch to the backup peanut. Which is what this rent got. Wow. A primary and backup. Dan. I'll never have that problem. I have a corded peanut, but it's for shaving your head. Not for shaving your sack. That's just nasty, man. What the fuck?

Yeah, you sick, you sick fuck. But, I mean, so you're doing at-home haircuts. That's what we're at right now. Yeah, we're doing at-home haircuts. My's what we're at right now. Yeah, we're doing at-home haircuts. My wife cuts my hair and then asks me to cut her hair and I say, well, dear, I've had a couple of beers and a jazz gummy. Are you sure?

And she says, now I'll do it myself. That's a hell of a combination and I'm sure it keeps your hands very steady. Then I think, I honestly think I'm gonna take off my headphones to show you here. I think it's been almost three months since my last haircut. I'm gonna show you the profile view, all right? Yeah.

Oh boy, you've got like season one data going there. I really do, and that's the problem, because I'm pretty happy with the party in the front. Yeah, the party in the front looks solid. The party in the back is just way too loud, Ben. It's like your neighbors in New York. They've got the drum set in their loft. You can't even get their attention with your broom handle against the ceiling. Here's the problem. For at-home hair cuttery, you are committed to the idea of cutting all around. I could not just peanut the back. No, that would be bad. It's impossible,

it can't be done. So I'm stuck with either growing the front and the back at different rates where the consequence of this becomes what, some sort of like Joe dirt situation. Yeah. Or I actually commit to a haircut where I lose the party in the front and the party in the back and become a Joe number three guard. Mm made this intention clear to my wife, and we got in a great big fight about it. She did not want me to go to a uniform short length all over. And she was so adamant about it that she insisted on giving me a haircut herself.

And so we had the experience of me sitting there biting my tongue while she gave me a haircut. I think a quality about a professional hair stylist that often goes uncommented on is the degree to which they are expressionless as they cut your hair, right? Like, you're having a conversation, you're talking like people, but a professional will not look like they're working particularly hard to do a good job in a way that your wife would

look like they are really trying in a way that has got to be very stressful. I think that she doesn't have good bedside manner as a barber, but I will say she did a surprisingly great job on the actual cut. Like, it's not professional by any means, but it's not embarrassing either. I was about to say I'm looking at you right now and you do not look like a person who has endured

a at-home haircut by an amateur. Yeah, it's just that it took like five times as long as a professional haircut. And also, like the kind of haircut I get is so different from the kind of haircut that she gets, that she doesn't even have like the benefit of having seen it done by another person. Like I had to do all of that.

Like yeah, you like hold the hair between your fingers and you like look for the bit that you just cut and cut everything else to that length. Like that was like new thought technology to her. Yeah, that's scary Steph, man. I mean, I remember the family friend haircut of my youth. I remember the $8 strip mall haircut place by the grocery store that I grew up on.

I mean, the consequences of those cuts stay with you for a long time. I used to go to a chain barber shop in a strip mall near our house called Great Clips for Hair that was sailboat themed. That was a franchise that where I grew up too. Yeah, between every chair, there was like a little, like a jib sail to divide, to divide the different stations. I had this one barber who cut my hair for like years and years and years. Sky's name was Joe.

And he was like the big shaved bald barber. Yeah, I mean, do you trust a bald barber? I trust a Joe. That's the mock question. He gave me great haircuts. Cup to think of a Joe had a look not unlike that of Captain Benjamin Siskel. He was an African-American man with a goatee and no hair.

Well, there's a treat and store for us, Ben. I believe as we get into the episode of the day, of course that being Deep Space 9, Season 6, episode 19, in the Pale Moon light. Do you realize how it is? What about this series? Ah-ha! Ah-ha!

No, of course you don't. The rare Batman reference. How about this is? Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! No, of course you don't. The rare Batman reference. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. In a Star Trek title, right? Yeah. Who is the devil that we're dancing with? Cute.

I guess it's the Romulans. Always a game of chess with them. If we can hit that bullseye. The rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards Checkmate. I expected Cisco's dad to be murdered in this episode. Aren't you? Shot outside of his restaurant. I just could not believe that there wasn't a slow motion shot of pearls bouncing on The ground in an alleyway This is an episode that has discovered the interior trunk.

The episode inspired by all Aero Moris films everywhere. Yeah, it is Ben Sisko's fog of war. And it is. We talked about that episode where Renee Obershanwaw wanted to have, you know, beaten Odo look like the vanquished samurai with the, you know, hair hanging down in front of his face. And Sisko starts this episode, you know, with his action jacket open, his shirt unzipped somewhat, and he just looks devastated in that way. Yeah, he kind of plays strip storytelling as the episode goes on, taking off an article of clothing with every return to his in-room narration, his in-room captain's lugging. He looks quite rumpled and...

You wonder where it's going to end, Ben. Yeah, don't out. It's going to be a Boudoir photo at the end of this. So he wants to think back over the last two weeks and see if he can puzzle through where he went wrong. What do you think his drink of choice is? He's got that big blade runner glass out. Yeah.

He's got a bottle of a clear liquid. I don't think we've gotten a sense like all of our Star Trek captains seem to have a main drink. A drink that you know them by and I'm not sure if we have that trivia about Cisco, do we? I feel like there's a lot of Ractagino that gets talked about, but it doesn't feel like he lives on that plot. Everybody lives on that plot on this show. This is an evening for booze. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I like to think that he's got a nice smoky mess, Cal. That is a great big glass. A friend of mine for my birthday got me these blade runner glasses. Cool. And they are super cool, but they are heavy AF. Wow. They're so substantial that it feels like,

you know how sometimes you like a nice piece of glass where you feel like it'll be fragile enough to break? It seems heavy enough to break. Yeah. And just as easy of a way. Like if you drop it, it's terminal velocity, it will reach its terminal velocity in the like two and a half feet it has to get to the floor.

Yeah, it's a low douter. That thing, like it would make me fearful of washing it in the sink. Yeah. That's the most dangerous time for glassware in that sink basin. Yeah, gotta be careful. So he launches into this log,

he starts talking about how every Friday, he posts the death within the federation on a big view screen in the ward room. And so it's casualty Friday? Oh boy. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Oh yeah, yeah.

He deserves the title. I think that these characters no longer saying TGIF, they're probably saying something more like GDIF. Mm, yeah. What do you make of Cisco's posting these in the wardrobe? Like, can you just go in and out of the wardrobe if you're an officer whenever you want? I suppose you wouldn't want to put this on the opposite side of the wardrobe if you're an officer, whenever you want. I suppose you wouldn't want to put this on the opposite side

of the mall directory on the promenade, right? That's no fun. They posted it right outside quarks, so everybody's got a real bummer on when they go in there. Yeah. No, yeah, I mean, it's weird to think about like, oh yeah, I got to go up and check the list of casualties. Shit, there's a meeting scheduled right now.

Can't get in until 4.30. Yeah, you ever accidentally walking on that McLaughlin group? Is your walk as it's going? Cause they've gone over on the meeting room. Yeah, that awkward. Awkward backing out of the room. Sorry.

I hated that aspect of corporate life, especially when you're in the meeting. It's not your meeting to run and you're in there and you've noticed that it's gone over. And then you start seeing the people gathered outside wondering what the fuck. And you're like shooting mind-dagger at the manager who's going over not realizing this.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh, God. Get me as far away from that as I can get. Guess what is the maximum amount of distance ever measured by anyone in the history of time? It's working that job, being in that conference room and now recording a Star Trek podcast. We did it, Ben.

This idea is kind of inception, right? Because it's bishir that floats it, I think. They're talking about how a friend of theirs bought the farm. And they're like, yeah, some gem hadar came across the, you know, the Romulan part of the border and took out the Cairo. And Bishir is like, well, if the Romulans came into the war, like, this would be great. And Dax is there to remind Bashir that for the Romulans, this is awesome because they

can just sit back in the cut and watch the gemadar and the cardacians and the federation and the, and the klingons tear each other to shreds. And then when the dust settles, the Romulans will be in a great position. You know the Romulans urine is blue-colored, and people don't know that. Interesting, given the color of most of their beverages. You could see how it is aligned with the human custom of drinking champagne. Or beer.

Whiskey, if you are particularly dehydrated. Yeah, it's interesting to hear this coming from him. Like, and he's not wrong at all. The roms are in a prime position to just lay back in the cut and watch the federation get creamed from a safe distance without getting their hands dirty. I wanted a little bit to hear him address the idea of how this factors into the unenviable

X-Men calculus that the war is unwinnable. Yeah. Yeah, does it suddenly become windable with their involvement? Yeah. Like, we had this one variable that we could never figure out how to flip the bit on, but if the Romulans become team alpha quadrant, it changes all of the math. Would be a great reassuring thing to hear in a scene like this.

And it would help you understand why Cisco would go to such lengths. Right? Yeah, it's true. It feels a little unusual that this appears as though this is the first time that Cisco has considered this idea. It hits him like a piphany. It sure does. It's a piphany eyes to commercial. Uh, Cisco has been inspired to make this happen.

That was the moment I made the decision. And he does a little bit of play acting with DAX in a way to just sort of run a simulation about how a conversation would go between him and a random Romulan in order to like sell the idea of joining the war. I really like this, you know, I like that DAX kind of slips into Romulan affect without, they don't, you know, they don't signpost it before she does it and it's very clear what she's doing. Like that I feel like it's well written and well acted. Very good old man. You would have made a decent Romulan.

Yeah. And she's channeling that Romulan vibe in a way that I didn't see coming. Her impression works, but the conversation doesn't. By the end of it, sis goes like, yeah, you're right. This is going to be pretty challenging. That's true, if I've got what it takes to make a convincing argument. The question remains, how do you convince them? The only solution they can come up with is you have to prove to the Romulans that it's in their best interest to be in this war with like tangible evidence

that the Dominion plans to fuck them over. The issue is if the Dominion wins and it's not a pure victory where they technically win and destroy the Federation and the Klingon Empire, but are also so fucked up themselves that they can't project power into the rest of the quadrant. That's great for the Romulans, but the scenario where the Dominion and the Gemini are just run roughshod over everyone else totally fucks the Romulans because it paints them into a corner. And they kind of need to persuade the Romulans that it's that second situation that is

more likely. Yeah, and it can't just be a presentation. Appealing to their sense of logic and strategy doesn't appear to be on the table at all. There has to be a sort of proof of existential threat. In a funny way, it kind of like makes it a harder sell overall because it's like, yeah, like this isn't that even of a fight.

Like we are definitely gonna get our asses kicked unless you help us is not like the most appealing invitation. One of the qualities I really like about this episode is like so many plans. The first idea is the most complex and difficult. And then as the story goes on, like Cisco as the decision maker has to like walk it back a little bit into something more attainable. And then walk it back even more into something more attainable than that. And that feels like real life. Yeah, I think it's a little bit above his pay grade that he's like he a captain in Starfleet has decided to personally draw the entire Rommet Starfleet. I felt the same way.

The moment he talks to Garrick and is like, I'm going to run this up the flagpole to Starfleet command. I checked the time code and it was halfway through the up the field. That train has left the station. He's asking for forgiveness at this point. It's a permission. Yeah, we recently watched the balance of terror on greatest discovery. And like the fact that Kirk is constantly radiating, radiating home for approval just

to cross the neutral zone is like such a, like that idea is so far from where it's going. Right. So not only is the idea that an attack on Romulus by the Dominion is the only thing that would convince the Romulans to join the war, they hypothesize that it exists. Right. And they also believe that it exists on Cardassia Prime, and that their job is to go to Cardassia Prime and get it.

So a number of assumptions combined here and. They're setting up the road trip episode that we don't get. Nice to see Garic back on the scene here. Hello, Garic, I forgot you were there. Yeah. When Cisco says there is somebody living on the station that specializes in get-again places that he isn't invited.

I was like, who? I can't think of anyone. Right. And when you hear Gerek say back the plan to Cisco, it sounds insane. It sounds almost as insane as hearing Cisco say it. It's more like a suicide mission. Yeah. And sometimes that's all it takes, right? Somebody to recapitulate the thing you just said to them

to expose what a pose you are. It's like that stupid masterclass ad, have you seen that? The one where, like one of the experts on masterclass is like a master interrogator. Like use the technologies of a master interrogator. Use the technologies of a master interrogator in the workplace. One of the examples he gives is like repetition. Use conversational repetition to get the upper hand in all business matters. They cut to a scene of him doing

it. It's basically him just repeating the last four words that were said to him. The conversation. That's what happens here. That's what Garrick does to Cisco. He gets the upper hand by just repeating the last four words. Garrick has been using this time for a lot of e-learning opportunities. Right. Garrick sort of pivots Cisco into another way of thinking.

Like if only you were interested in spilling a little bit of blood, I have a related plan that could sort of work to all of our benefit if you'll only hear me out. Yeah, because Gerek has like a few favors left that he could call in on Cardassia Prime, but he's quite hesitant to do that when he doesn't think that it's actually gonna work. Right. What he would like instead is to trick the Romulans. That's right, because it would take a lot of effort

to go to Cardassia and get information that may or may not exist. Why would you go through all that effort if instead you could create this evidence out of thin air? Then you would save the gas on the road trip. You get to keep things close to home. You get to get a a Romulan Senator coming to your house instead of going to theirs. It's just much more convenient for everyone involved. The road to hell is paved with conveniences. That's what they say. Gold to cotton, the cotton, gold to cotton. So the involvement of Senator Vreenak is going to be vital here because he's like, he's

known on the street as the guy who is the most hard line. Like this is his plan. His plan is to lay back and watch the world burn. And so what Garic is saying is that if you can convince this guy that Rhymnalysis in trouble, all the other bread boxes lined up behind him are going to fall like dominoes. Speaking of dominoes, a pretty major federation domino falls in this moment. They get word that beta-zid has been taken over by the dominion. How could they not have sensed that coming?

That's my question. I wondered what is happening with the wakzana in this moment. Do we know whether or not a beta said can get a hit off of a founder or a or a vorta? Because w because walks on a spend a lot of time with Odo. Yeah. But she I don't think she spent much time with the Vorda or a gem hadar ever. Yeah, I don't think she could read Odo.

But it wouldn't surprise me if the founders like coded that in genetically like if the Ferengier unreadable, especially with the alpha-bred ones, right? Oh, yeah. You gotta harden those guys. Yeah, interesting that BetaZad gets brought up here without any of like the, you know, we know Betazoid characters and they're left in abstraction in this moment. Yeah, it's too bad. Cut to BetaZad, I say. Yeah, let's see those picnics in the park that they're known for. Yeah, those come-filled leaves that they love eating.

So the plan is to show the senator a holographic conversation depicting the plan for this Romulan invasion being hatched. Yeah. The thing is, these holograms have to be perfect. There's a technology involved, right? There's a rod. These rods are manufactured only as needed on Kadasya Prime. Information can only be transcribed on them once and then cannot be altered. They're going to do like the best forgery that has ever been done in the history of forgeries. And to do that, Garic is gonna need Cisco to call in a favor to Gauron

because the only forger that he thinks is capable of doing this is currently on death row in Klingon Jail. I feel like the name Graethon Tollar is like the name an eight year old gives his D&D character. It sounds like so perfectly Star Trek-y in name, right? I was kind of hoping that this was going to be a cling-on, and he was going to be like,

I am incredibly talented in working in fine details. Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha. I got my first look at this guy and I was like, is this one of those knee genitals guys? That was not his knee. Oh. That's it I thought he looked like because he was blue like him. He's blue like him but he's also got kind of like extra lofie head the way those green guys in who mourns for mourn. Right.

Have? Yeah. They look like cousins. And then he's got those. the way those green guys in who mourns for more. Right. Have. Yeah, they look like cousins. And then he's got those... Well, we don't know where those guys as genitals are. No, I guess we don't. He's got those spots all over his head, and I wondered if those were scars from choosing his pain. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah, you could see it. This guy though, he does not have the sort of attitude that would suggest a hardened criminal type. I've never worked for Stoffley before. He's interesting because he's a chill and pretty like pleasant character to be around. Definitely a white collar criminal. Right. I mean, he's like a dirtbag, right? Like, he assumes that they busted him out of jail so he could make an incredibly detailed porno for Captain Cisco. Right. Which is like a little

worrisome about his level, like his intelligence quotient, but he was so excited about this plan that it's almost as if he had started it already. Yeah, like mid-flight, he was already like designing the Orion slave girls for the for the program. I feel like if you were the designer of a Hollis Suite program, much in the same way you and I worked as editors professionally, like you have you have a sequence that's already templatized for such a thing. Yeah. You already have four Orion slave girls dialed up ready to go. Right.

Yeah, you just, you, you, you launched the project and you've got assets that have already been pulled into it. Right. Right. You just start dropping transitions and stings onto everything. This guy is not on board the station for long before the hardness of his criminality becomes evident though. Yeah, because he goes and gets into a bar fight almost immediately. for long before the hardness of his criminality becomes evident though.

Yeah, because he goes and gets into a bar fight almost immediately with Quark and he staves him. Yeah, with the bartender. That's fucked up. Never fight a bartender. He was drinking wail and bitters, Adam. I wondered if wail and bitters are a thing you can get. Can you get Utani look her? It's nothing wrong with it. Maybe. That would be good.

This looks like a flesh wound in Quark's chest. Yeah. This looks like a nearly fatal stab wound that he's absorbed. I think they talk about a knife, but it kind of looks more like the like, break a bottle on the edge of the bar and stab somebody with it. This is classic bad bar behavior. We get a nice bit of storytelling by Odo,

because Odo tells Cisco what happened and what happened is Tolar got hammered. He tried to grab the ass of a davo girl, quirk defended her and then get stabbed in the process. Like maybe like the first unimpiguously good thing that quirk has done on the show. process. Like maybe like the first unimpugiously good thing that Quark has done on the show. Yeah, but this is a problem for Cisco because Tolar isn't supposed to even be there, man. Normally, he'd be sitting in a holding cell, but he claims he's a friend of yours. He's no friend of mine. And if Quark decides to press charges, it means that administratively he will have been there, and that can't happen. So Cisco has to sit down next to Quark and work out some sort of arrangement where Quark would not press charges and this takes a bribe.

I was thinking about how often it comes up that Quark is the one getting bribed and it's not that often but I do remember a scene in maybe like season one or two where Quark was in Cisco's office and Cisco said like, you're gonna do this for me or I'm going to start charging, you rent on the bar. And I feel like that should just always be the leverage. Right, yeah. But instead Quark gets like a big payout, he gets his shirt replaced. He's coming up off this.

Like this was, this getting stabbed business was great for him. Unfortunately, this really diverts Cisco's attention because now he's working with Garrick on the repair of Quark's shirt and this mission. Right. It's just a lot for Garrick to concentrate on. The guy only has so much

bandwidth, you know. Back with Cisco, we get another, and these are dotted throughout the episode. We go back into the current time and get more of him speaking to camera. And I would say you either love or hate these scenes. If you did not appreciate the acting of Avery Brooks and Far Beyond the Stars, you're probably not gonna be into this because only Avery Brooks can do this. I think I can think of no other Star Trek captain who could do an episode like this

with scenes like this directly to the camera and make them of the quality that they are. I mean, he's monologuing here, but he's 10 out of 10 every time. Yeah. I think like the first time I watched this episode, my brain couldn't even compute that he was looking at me. Yeah, you kind of looked away every time. Yeah. And I think that that's an amazing, it's amazing that it's taken them this long to discover this power he has. Almost. You know what's wild about that is it's kind of a simulation for acting across

from him. Like, think about how difficult it's got to be to lock into his attention when you're sharing a scene with him as an actor. If you're already, if you're just feeling this watching the episode in the scenes where he's, he's acting to camera here. Yeah, it's fucking wild. Doesn't look easy if you can't even watch the episode, Ben. What are you doing now? What are you doing now? I'm not be gone, I'm not be gone, I'm not be gone, I'm not be gone, I'm not be gone. Exactly. One of my favorite scenes is next because Garrett gets on the lift wearing a flamboyant TNG Season 1 security uniform. It's kind of the two-vicks uniform in a way.

It is hilarious looking. Yeah, it's good. Usually, Garrick wears more layers than this, and you really get a sense for how jacked he is as a character. Yeah, he moves around a lot more in this episode than he often does, and the shape of his body is not what I expected. And the less I'm seeing parading through ops, the better.

He gets a sense for how much power Garic has over this circumstance because he tells Cisco that he's locked to Lauren as quarters with the suggestion that his door may be wired to explode if he attempts to leave. And also like in order to get this rod situation dealt with, they're gonna need some biomimetic gel in exchange. And we know from experience, what kind of value is placed on this gel.

It's not something that is obtained easily. There's one person that they can obtain this very special kind of honey stick from. And what they want is 200 liters of biomimetic gel in payment, which is not really possible because the federation does not release biomimetic gel to anyone. It's the best lubricant in the galaxy and letting anyone fuck that smooth is not in the federation's best interest.

In the conversation that he has next with Bixir, Bixir is like, well you've come to the right source for all matters liquid. 200 is a lot of liters, but if this person is a real freak like me, that might be what they need. This is a great scene for Bashir. I'd like this order in writing, please. Because he takes great umbrage with the idea of letting this controlled substance just go out to whoever.

Yeah. And Cisco is not trying to hear his objections. Cisco goes up, goes all the way up to ordering him. And Bashir does the administrative protest moves that are available to him, but they're pretty flaccid. He basically doesn't want to get left holding the bag if this blows up. So he wants the orders in writing,

which Cisco has anticipated. And then he's like, well, shit, well, I'm also putting it in my log then. He's paper trailing it. It's like when you notice somebody is including a lot of details about when you last spoke in the emails and you're like, oh man, this is weak. Yeah. But she's like, I can't give you all 200 liters, but I can give you 85 liters and if you have two, you can just spit on it.

dismissed. The next scene is them reviewing the forgery, which is a a holographic record of this conversation that never took place between Demar, some legged and wayune about quote unquote stage two of the dominion's plan and the alpha quadrant. And Stage 2 is the turning on the Romulans and surprising them by invading them. There was like apparently an earlier version of this that didn't work for Cisco. So he's given some studio notes. And now he's reviewing Data Rod,

version 17, final, final, final, last one, .mov. And he think it's probably good enough. I love the suggestion of the versioning, but I wish we saw one of the older, crappier, rough ways of this where, like, why are you and demar being cordial with each other? Where their voices don't match up. Where there's like some, like,

we're running into this a lot as we record the show remotely like where you go out out of sync a little bit. Oh yeah yeah some little flash frames or whatever. Yeah that is fun. Just a little editing mistakes. I mean like that's got to be a joke that's available to them right like they have to send these episodes to the studio for approval I imagine so they're it would have been fun to see them just like play with that a little bit more. Tular is at the controls in this scene. So, you are happy. And they both give them the approval thumbs up.

Go ahead and lock it in, stick it in the rod. The idea with this rod is that it's like a... You can write to this one time, you can't copy what's been written to it. It's like a perfect perfect one-time-only archival record of something. So, theoretically impossible to fake and they're getting us close to perfectly faking one as you possibly can. I love the moment where Tilar is done and he pulls out the honey, stick and hands it to Garrick and and Gary's like, I'm not touching that thing, stick it in the box. If you're ever given a job

where the person you're doing the job for does not want to touch the thing that you've worked on, that's a pretty bad sign of the criminality that you've conspired in, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I kind of thought that a great thunt tool or should have pulled out a hanky from his pocket Yeah, yeah, I mean, I kind of thought that a Greython

tool art should have pulled out a hanky from his pocket and rubbed the finger prints off this thing. This is how Greython tool art went to prison the first time by touching the rod. This guy's a fucking idiot. Take basic precautions, Greython. He's kind of dumb. This is a scene that ends with Cisco slamming Greython up against the wall. Because Greython's like, cool, thanks, guys, off I go. And Cisco's

like, no, you're sticking around, Bob. Like, we're gonna, we're gonna make sure that this passes muster with our client before we let you go. And if you, and if it doesn't, you're right back to like the clutches of the Klingon Empire. Kind of a lot is made at the end of the episode about how much regret Cisco feels about his actions, but it starts here, right? You never see him get physical with a guy out of the blue like this. I think it speaks to the desperation

that really starts now. Right. Because like he has been really playing outside the margins to get this done and going out on Lume after limb. Best intentions being save a lot of lives and you know end the war with a V for the good guys. But he's also like really gone outside the margins for it. And it's starting to act more like a gangster than a starfleet captain, to be honest. Like Avery Brooks is so intense, verbally, that to get that combination of his intensity both in a line delivery,

but also in a throw a guy up against a wall kind of way, it's pretty scary stuff. Yeah, and the addressing the camera scenes, like I feel like they started at like an eight, but now we're like past a 10. I feel like, I feel like when we cut away from this scene, he's like at an 11. It's what, it's really when I started to get uncomfortable.

There's a really neat scene next where Senator Vrenex Shuttle arrives. And we see a part of the station that we haven't seen before, because they go up to the docking bay, and they await the arrival of this thing. And we see the entire process. We see the door open. Something invisible come in, the door shuts behind,

and then like the airlock pushes out, at the now uncloaked Romulan shuttle. It's a really neat sequence. It's super cool. It's Steve Space Nine's equivalent of the shuttle bay. And we see like a runabout parked in the back there. But this is like the other side of the wall for what, you know, when we see a runabout coming up on a landing pad,

what goes on, you goes on under that hole. And yeah, it's amazing that it's like late season six that we ever get to see the mechanics of that. And it's super neat. It's, I was also quite excited to see it. Renact joined Cisco for a glass of the blue drink of illicit conversations between enemies. It's a conversation that started out in the hallway

where Verenac really big dog Sisko quite a bit. My opinion of stuff with offices is so low. You have to work very hard and deed to disappoint me. Yeah, he's like taking his time to come here Sisko out, which is kind of amazing by itself. But he's also like, doesn't want to let Cisco get the wrong idea that Frey-Nack is like considering him to be an equal. This is one of those like summit meeting type scenes where like two leaders of their

people come together to chop it up and they talk about the possible outcomes of the war. Concurrently, Garrick has asked permission to board his shuttle, which you just sort of understand is happening at the same time while Vreenak is distracted by this blue drink. Garrick makes the case that he's gonna go see if there's any interesting intelligence in the computer on Vreenak's shuttle,

surreptitiously, because Vreenak won't be traveling with that many guards. The scenes also really interesting because Vrenac is, you know, they're talking about, like, yeah, we're in this cold war against each other, and, you know, the Dominion winning the war could really be great for Romulus, but the other part of the conversation is about this blue drink, this cally fall that they're drinking, and Vrenac detecting the flaws in the replication of it, like talking about it being an imperfect facsimile

of the real thing. Vryokali fall should forcibly open one's sciences well before the first sip. Really foreshadowing his ability to detect a fake! Because we smash right into the hollow meeting and Vrenak watching it. I should say experiencing it because that's the way hollow meetings work.

He's like walking around, mingling with the characters inside. Yeah, looking up close at wayune. And you know, this is a pretty crazy piece of news for him to be processing that they're about to get fucked over by these people that they thought they had a peace treaty with. So he's like, you'll forgive me if I want to subject that honey stick to a little bit of scrutiny. And this is maybe the moment of greatest stress for Cisco, this intervening time between the moment he gives the honey stick to Vrenac, and when he gets an answer, as to whether or not Vrenac believes it to be true. What did I can't remember? What did did Greenack say about the honey stick?

It's a fake! Pretty silly moment for Greenack here. Yeah, I thought that it was maybe the greatest master strokes that the show has ever done to have keen in place this go, just for this one moment. It's a fake! Uncomfortable silence. This, I think the pacing of this episode makes possible this transition because we go straight from this crescendo.

Like we've reached this moment of great stress. Sisko's been found out, the honey sticks a fake. And we cut elliptically to like back at work a few days later. We never get the consequence of it's a fake in the moment. We never get the conversation that happens after this. We don't get Vrenex stomping off towards a shuttle. It's just that's the end of that scene. And then we cut to the consequence later.

I thought that was a really interesting choice that I don't think works in an episode that's Pace differently, right? You really are made not to think about that. It was a gambit that failed, except for that it didn't because the potential for blowback here, like the reason that you would imagine Starfleet would forbid a captain to engage in an enterprise like this is that like the Romulans now have every reason to side with the Dominion against the Federation for being duplicitous creeps that tried to trick them into a giant war that will result in millions of Romulans deaths. And yet like the the moments after Cisco processing that are like pretty optimistic. We're back at GDIF and people are saying, like, yeah, there's one casualty of somebody we know,

but it seems like the death list is not as big a bummer this week as it is a lot of weeks. No, it sounds a bit strange, but I'd say we're off to a pretty good stock today. And then Wharf comes in with some pretty crazy news. He's giddy, which made me suspicious right away. Mm-hmm. He says that Freenac Shuttle was destroyed. Senator Freenac, he was returning to Romulus from a diplomatic mission to Sikara when his shuttle exploded.

They believe that the Dominion is responsible. The Dominion assassinated a Romulan center. On a diplomatic mission. That changes everything. You could even bring the Romulans into the war. He's like, guys, guys, guys. You know how when we're coming back from a conference, it's always super fucked up? Did you know that that can happen to Romulans?

Also? Hey, Cisco, you know that sound you've been working on? Ha ha ha ha ha. We'll listen to this. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Cisco does the math on why that would be and is in Garrick's shop punching him over a table in short-trift.

The back of the hand punch. Yeah. Criminally underutilized and start trek. I think. Yeah. Also got to be like one of the most painful punches for the puncher. It's like a belly flop where it's like,

it is a funny joke at the expense of really hurting yourself. It's also a very weak punch because you put no body behind a punch that you backhand, like you get none of the force involved with punching forward. Well, you have to count on your victim to really sell it, which Garak does. He was flying over the stable. You see that table in the foreground and it's like seeing a wheelchair basketball team in a Michael Bay movie. You know someone's going over that table, Ben? Yeah. And Garek's explanation is like, yeah, I put a bomb there,

made it look like the Geminar did this in his shuttle because we needed a guarantee that this worked. And now like the Romulans will find his dead body and they will find the damaged but still readable honey stick and the damage will cover up the fact that the honey stick is a forgery. And now you've got exactly what you set out to do. A war between the Romulans and the Dominion. Look at me. I am section 31 now. I love how the reasons for cisgoing angry are so multifaceted, right?

Because, like, let's talk about all the ways that he's angry here. He's angry that Vrenex Shuttle was destroyed without his express written approval. Like, this mission was done behind his back. But also that he was party to murder. But also that I truly believe that he's the most upset at his lack of control of the situation. Yeah, he's mad at himself more than Gary. It's just that Gary, he has has the ability to punish a little bit.

Right. Gary makes a pretty strong case about the outcome, maybe forgiving the method. And he sort of questions Cisco's ability to accept that. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And when we get that final moment in Cisco's quarters of the personal log, we see how tortured Cisco is.

Yeah. Before finally being not tortured at all about it, he reconciles himself with the truth of the matter and his instrumentality in it. Like, it's a very dark idea, and the idea, I think specifically, is in this case, the ends are going to justify the means. And that's an idea that I don't think you could do with a Captain Picard, for example. It suggests to me a question about whether or not Ben Sisko has a broke bad because when characters on TV shows do this, when they get a taste for what's possible when you act outside of the rules of your job or your society or anything else, you don't just stop after doing it once. There's an addiction to an ability to get something done sometimes easier this way.

And so that was the feeling that I had at the end. It's like, is this a new Cisco going forward? The Cisco that isn't afraid to break a couple of tellars to make a Cisco omelet. You really want to do this here. Now, okay, okay, let's do it, do it. It's an idea that kind of flies in the face of some of the things I really like about Star Trek,

which is like, I don't think the ends do justify the means. I think there are no ends, you know, like there are only means in reality, and you have to live up to your own morals. And I think that this is a great episode from an acting standpoint, and a very interesting episode from a storytelling standpoint. But to me, it's a little bit of a disappointment in terms of a presenting the ideals of a better future. I like the episode because it's the needs of the many question, like we've seen so many times, but it's presented in a way where like this is Cisco Spockbox. Like this is his warp core, you know? Like he's going in and doing something awful in order to ensure the

Federation's survival. And it doesn't matter if all he has are those gloves. Like he's willing to absorb the radiation of this mission he did. Yeah. So that's so that the Federation can survive. And I really like how there is a parallel between those two things. I think you're right, though. I think there's no question that there that this is like the darkest possible permutation of that idea.

And it is an idea that has been presented in Star Trek episodes and movies since the beginning. And you're only supposed to think of it in the most rotten, barri-in kind of way. The nice way. The case I'm trying to make here is that it's not a manipulation of that theme at all. I think it is exactly what it says on the box. I think this is just one of the versions, one of the many versions that you get inside that theme.

I think it dispoils the character a little bit though. And like if this is the moment that he breaks bad and learns the wrong lesson that breaking the rules is sometimes an easier way of getting to what you want, that sucks. You know? Hey, man, I was already here with him after he fucked Mirror Dax and Mirror Sisko's wife on the same day. If you didn't think this was predicted a couple of seasons ago. That's where he broke bad. He broke it off bad.

Wow. Well, do you want to get into a pledge break at him? Yeah, we got to do that. Priority one message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Need a supplement on top. A supplement. Yeah, it's extra. The interest alone could be enough to buy this ship.

Then we have a couple of personal priority when messages here. The first one is from officer Steve McKenzie and it's to J.L. Wallace. Message goes like this, buddy. It turns to this P1 has forced me to pawn off my vintage one of a kind Jim Shimoda collectible card just to cover the costs. Wow. It's a small price to pay for the countless hours of ridiculous entertainment, so I will learn to live with it because I can live with it.

I can live with it. I used to 25 more years of friendship. Wow. I think the more times you say you can live with something, the more clear it is that you might not be able to live with that thing. You're saying that you can live with it. You're telling yourself as though you need to tell yourself a lot in order to believe it.

I have a question here which is that Officer Steve McKenzie spelled it with a G, G-Y-M, Shimoda. Right, right. Is there such a thing as a Jim Shimoda collectible card? I'm wondering if this is a product made on the Jim Shimoda Facebook group. I'm aware of a GYM Shimoda collectible card.

Yeah. And if there were one, I would be inflating that Shimoda bubble. As we speak, you know, I'm want to do that. You love you love to create a bubble wherever possible, especially in a pool. Right. Yeah, I love making bubbles in a energy queasy. Then nobody knows it to you. How do we have a second priority one message here? It is from Aaron, Your wife, and it's two, Peter, who gets excited when Ben and Charles Allen like his tweet.

It's like this. Happy 7th anniversary. Shit hasn't hit the fan. No raker hair or the shovel Janeway bun to signal trouble. I love our raker levels of enthusiastic consent, and I'll keep things tighter than a real doll down there. Ooh, what? The tans and I love you so much.

Adam and Ben, the best Tiki Bar and DC is in our kitchen, and you are welcome anytime. He is, I'm a little confused about where the euphemisms begin and where they end in this message. What Tiki Bar is Aaron referring to? I think Aaron wants us to come over for drinks. Okay. But I feel like it's pretty intense on the heels of her describing how she's intending to keep things tight. In a very specific way. A lot of enthusiasm and a lot of places in this message from air and your wife.

No seven-year-its for air in your wife and Peter who gets excited. She's, I think, tell you what, I think Peter is gonna need some of that nugget ice that Tiki bars have. Wow, well, a couple of great P1s if you'd like to get one, head to maximumfun.org slash Jembo Tron, and you know what to do. Hey Adam. What's that been? Did you find yourself a drunk Shimoda? A CREDIBLE! Drunk Shimoda! This is the easiest Shimoda I think either of us have ever picked, right?

It's a fake! I mean this line read is incredible. I would watch an oral history documentary about this choice. In saying it this way, It's a fake. Like, I would want to see the script and the script notes and whatever parentheticals were there. It's a fake. I want to sit down with this actor and really dig in to why he did it like this.

It's a fake. Everything about it's a fake is amazing. And I'm not sure if it's for the reasons that they would hope, you know? Like I wonder if you're shooting this scene if you see the humor in it the way we do. It's such a big choice, I think I think they have to have seen the humor in it. So is your is your Shimoda Vreenak? It is. Vreenak and the actor who plays Senator Vrenec in making the decision. It's like at the end of best of both worlds,

we rack into Riker and he's like, fire! I mean, because my shimoada is Cisco for the cut to react in this scene. The camera pushing in on Cisco, just breaking one, is unbelievable. Like, it is matching big for big in a certain way. As soon as you add another vowel to the word in the script,

you've got to be really sure that you have the performance right. Because I think of the way we've seen climax in Star Trek forever. Like when when you start chaining together vowels in in words like in the word con, for example, that's what I'm saying. Like you would you would increase the cap value of that line read like by an order of magnitude. With every vowel. I don't think you see it a lot, and I think there is a reason for that. And it's, and this scene is proof of it. Yeah, I think that you can be a little bit more colorful in your line read when every

Brooks is going to be the reaction shot though. And his very true. When, when, when you see the implications of how fucked he is, wash over him, it retroactively justifies a weird choice. Yeah, you're exactly right. When you do the math of it, it's what he's saying that carries the day and not the way he says it.

It is a totally amazing moment. It's like one of the most amazing like two shot scenes in the entire history of Star Trek. Why did he take the honey stick with him if it was a fake? I guess to show the rest of Romulus, what Duplicit is Jerk's the Federation are? Everyone's lucky he did. Yeah, that's for sure.

Gotta get that, get that, go press that, get that, get that, go press that, go press that, go. Am I right, oh, yeah. Am I right, oh, oh. That's for sure. A Greatest Gen Live Show is something you don't want to miss. Why? Well, it's a great opportunity to see me and Ben in person, but that's not all. FODs from all over gather at these shows to cosplay, to do pre and post show hangs, to make friends, and share their embarrassment. Hey, let's make a pretty great name for a tour. Let's do it!

The Share Your Embarrassment Tour is coming in August 2023, and we've got a bunch of dates in a lot of great places. Go to GreatestGenTour.com to get more info. That's GreatestGenTour. That's greatestgen tour dot com for dates and ticketing information for the share your embarrassment tour. I'm Jordan Morris. And I'm Jesse Thorne. On Jordan Jesse Go, we make pure, delightful nonsense.

We were open awesome guests and bring them down to our level. We get stupid with Judy Greer. My friend Molly and I call it having the spaceweards. Pat Noswald. Could I get a Balrog burger and some call it having the spaceweirds. Pat Noswald. Could I get a Balrog burger and some air-gorn fries? Thank you. And Kumail Nanjiani.

I've come back with cat toothbrushes, which is impossible to use. Come get stupider with us at MaximumFun.org. Look your podcast apps are already open. Just pull it out. Give Jordan Jesse Goatry. Being smart is hard. Be dumb instead. Whoa, Russ.

Hey, baby, oh, I'm about to count you in mine. These clouds are really freaking me out. I hate having to stand in line. And boy, what do I? These giraffes do not smell good. No, they do not, and they have such short nacks. But I'm hearing we need to get on this. So I've got to get on the art.

Yeah. It is about to rain. Got us about to destroy humanity. Hey, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Are you Noah? Yeah, I know we look like humans, but we're actually, we're podcasters. We are podcasters, so it's different. Have you heard of Ono Ross and Carrie? We investigate spirituality, claims of the paranormal, stuff like that.

And you have a boat and say the world's gonna end, so seem like something for us to check out. We would love to be on the boats. We came to by two. What do you think? Ono Ross and Carrie, available on MaximumFun.org. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in By Adam, I think it is about time to determine what the next episode will be on this show and how we will be consuming it. So why don't you head to gach.bizslashgame, while I tell you about season 6 episode 20, his way.

Odo receives lessons in Romance and Kira from a holographic 1960s lounge singer. Gross. I will veto the next episode, man. I'm using my one veto. We're skipping the next one. I don't want to see it. You may be thinking of the TNG portion of our program. This is the deep space, nine portion of our program. This is the deep space, nine portion of the program.

You're saying I don't have one of those. You do not have one of those. Vic Fontaine, the lounge singer in question, becomes a very important character in deep space nine if you can believe it. I have no idea who this guy is outside of just like I've heard the name Yeah, I've seen pictures of him, but this is yeah, this is DS9. I've never seen before So great really looking forward to it, man You really you really sold me on the on the idea That's the beauty of the deep space nine portion of greatest Jen. I don't need to sell you baby. This shit Sell itself space 9 portion of Greatest Gen. I don't need to sell you baby. This shit, sell itself.

Well, one part of our show that couldn't possibly be screwed up is the game of buttholes. Will the profits, where currently our run about is on square 69. Nice. A couple of squares ahead as it Quark Spar episode and... Oh boy. ...and all after that, so... Let's see what we got. You're required to learn as you play... ...roll.

Got the die in my hand, I'm gonna give it a roll. And I've rolled a five. Tula! Did I win? Are they? Wow. Has Plped us on square 74 Okay, inching ever closer to a more enamored episode At the end of the game

Yeah, still a few hazards ahead. There's that nth degree Pretty close now. Yeah, we could be stuck doing research at him, we hate that. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Fuck that. Fuck that shit. Well, regular old episode next week, and we like those as well. Um, another thing we really like is all of the friends of DeSoto who support the show on a monthly basis is the easiest thing to do.

You go to maximumfund.org slash join and just things your credit card or debit card or whatever. Make it a credit card thing. Get some airline miles out of it. I'm pretty sure like capital one or somebody is offering a you know five x points on maximum fun contributions credit card. So look around for that sign up for it. And support your favorite Star Trek podcast. And we really, really, really, really need that support. Does not get any easier to run the business that we accidentally

started when we started Star Trek Podcasting. So the funds that you contribute make that possible and make it possible for us to continue doing the show going forward. When you support the show you are known as a friend of DeSoto and two of our best friends of DeSoto come in the form of Bill Tilly. He's on Twitter of Bill Tilly in 1973. He of the comedy trading cards that you can find using the hashtag GreatestGen every week. Adam Ragusia, another great friend of DeSoto. He is the creator of our interstitial music that we use on the show, which is a fun little riff on the main title music that we've used for years. That's the great dark material. Yeah and if you enjoy the show, but you know tweet about it, go on

Facebook, tell people on Facebook that you like it, and they're Reddit subs and Facebook groups, and there's the greatest gen wikia. They're all kinds of great online ways to have a more rich experience with the show. And we encourage you to do them and not be dicks. And with that, we'll be back at you next time with another great episode of Star Trek Deep Space 9. And episode of the greatest generation, Deep Space 9. Which you can't veto.

And we don't have those anymore. Yeah. Why did we beat our swords to plowshares, Adam? What were we thinking? You know what a listener can veto any episode they want. Yeah, they probably should. They have that kind of power Maximum fun dotorg Comedy and Culture

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