The Greatest Generation - Rura Penthe™ Brand Gavel (S1E7)

Episode Date: November 27, 2017

When some sneaky aliens decide to out-creep Dr. Bashir, they attempt to abduct Jadzia. But when the trial begins, it’s unclear if she’s an ankylosaur or a floor mat. Can Odo be Christmas Lights? Is Klaestron 4 a “mask and gloves” planet? How do you direct Nana Visitor? It’s the episode with all the great older ladies.

Priority 1 message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Hey friends of Disodo. Before today's episode, we just wanted to take a moment to talk about the historic labor actions being taken by writers and actors in the American Film and Television industry. If you're a fan of the work done by the people who make Star Trek, we hope you'll join us in standing in solidarity with the folks who actually bring these adventures to life. Over the past several years, the AMPTP, the organization that represents the American Film and Television Production Studios, have reduced the profit from movies and TV going to workers. And in so doing,

they've attempted to weaken the labor unions that represent those workers. They wouldn't even engage the unions on many issues in their negotiations. And so a strike was the only course of action to take. Adam, Wendy and I have been having a lot of internal discussions about how best to stand with the unions and we are continuing those conversations in a dynamic situation. We're doing our best to understand where the picket lines are in these digital spaces,

and we would never intentionally cross one. With the information we have, we feel like we can do more good talking about and supporting the strike and continuing our show as planned. We'll keep you informed about what all this means for greatest trek specifically. Today we're making a contribution to the Entertainment Community Fund. This fund exists to help all the people whose livelihoods have been put on hold because the AMPTP refuses to negotiate

in good faith with the unions. It provides financial support for writers, actors, and all the thousands of laborers who make the shows that we talk about here and without whom we wouldn't have Star Trek to cast pot about. Those folks are all out of work because billionaires, company shareholders, and the executives of these companies don't want to compromise on the length of their yachts. We hope you'll join us in supporting entertainment workers in a challenging time, especially after they've already endured several years of challenges brought on by the pandemic

and season two of Star Trek Picard. We've set up a page where you can also contribute. It's at friendsofdecotoforlabor.com. That's friendsofdecotoforlabor.com. That's friendsofdisotoforlabor.com. Link in the episode description. Okay, now let's get on with the show. Here's to the finest generation Deep Space Nine. Star Trek Podcast by two guys who are a little bit embarrassed to have a Star Trek Podcast. I'm Adam Pryanaka.

I'm Ben Harrison. Ben the show has changed, but the shame remains the same. What are you magroober? Deep Space 9 is a less loved show than next generation. It did not penetrate the public consciousness like next generation, right? I feel like the fear. So when you tell people you're doing a deep space 9 podcast, I feel like... It sounds way dorkier.

Totally. Ohier. Totally. Oh god. Yeah. To the degree that I'm telling people that I just do a Star Trek podcast and I leave it at that. I think, I mean, I think within Trek fandom, deep space nine is the more beloved show,

but I don't think it ever had a crossover success the way TNG did. I feel like TNG people are my people. I feel like if you say that you're a DS9 person, then I feel like you're better than me. Yeah, yeah. We're just here in the cheap seats, the TNG bleachers.

You're in that deep-faced nine sky box. Right, yeah, enjoy those mini corn dogs. You ever sit in a suite for anything? No, never. I guess I just don't have enough. Like, you know, nobody is like, you know what Ben would like, getting to go to a suite, you know?

That's not his never crossed anybody's mind. No one looks at you and assumes sweet man. Yeah, no that sweet life though pretty nice I've been in a sweet once and I've been in the super great baseball seats behind home plate Another time I might prefer the super close to home plate seats to the sweet life. There's something about like You get your free food and bev in both places and that's fun But when you're sitting in a seat next to home plate you get to to fill out an order sheet bin Hmm, and I'm here to tell you when you fill out an order sheet that Request a hot dog bun filled with mini corn dogs

And that hot dog bun comes filled with mini corn dogs You realize you're trying to throw curve balls at the kitchen staff is what you're saying? Yeah, but they're just clocking them out of the park That's what a rich person's life is like. It's just the easiest batting practice of all time. It's corn dog wealthy. Like the power to do anything with mini corn dogs. No matter how depraved.

Oh yeah, I heard that that Moscow tape has a lot of corn dog stuff in it. Oh, don't ruin corn dogs for me. If you don't think Trump is corn dog wealthy, you are wrong. I just don't want them to be ruined by that guy of all people. Yeah. Ben, I'm drinking something different on the pod today.

Oh, really? I am drinking a glass of sangria. Really? I like sangria. Yeah. I'm drinking from the 1.5 liter bottle that you can get at Costco. Oh, man.

This Costco sangria is no joke, man. It is. You're not making your own. You're buying the store-bought Sangria. I'm buying the store-bought Sangria with the screw tap. Ben, guess how much a 1.5 liter bottle of Costco Sangria is? Oh, I don't know. $15? $689.

Man, if only winos were members. $15? $689. Hahaha. Man, if only, if only winos were members. No kidding. It's delicious. Sangria is a drink that I really enjoy, but I feel very cautious around because the most shameful I've ever acted well drunk was a Sangria drunk.

Oh boy, I've tinted my fingers under my chin, Ben. My elbows are on the table. I am all yours. I don't remember a lot of the particulars of this. Hahaha. Is this an apparently story, Ben? I was drinking San Gria at a friend's place in the East Village one time. We were like having a backyard get together and we had made a great big batch of San

Gria. And I don't really remember exactly what we were playing, but we were playing a drinking game where like losing would provoke the group building consensus towards something you had to do as punishment. And I was like, I was down to my shorts. I was like, I was like, they were, they were steering me towards getting nude. And I like lost my nerve and like tearfully ran out of the party. Like grabbed my clothes and like ran down the street with wad of clothes in my arms.

And then left a voicemail for my friend who was hosting the party, like apologizing for my behavior while still super inebriated. like apologizing for my behavior, while still super inebriated. While still unclothed. While still unclothed, while still in the great shame that I was feeling over all of this. So yeah, it's like a,

it's such a painful memory that sometimes I don't wanna go back to it with drink, but it's like a nice sangria. Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that. That that hurt you so much. Point to the part of the sangria bottle that hurts you, kid. I guess the opening.

Wow, how old were you for the story? I was totally like 22 or something like that. Oh yeah, that's the right time for that sort of thing. I didn't really drink until it was legal for me to drink. So I had none of high school to like get used to loosening up. I am not this type of person, but I have a good friend of mine that I grew up with for whom they'll move

once becoming inebriated was just to take off a shirt Like that level of comfort with his own body was just like the deal and it sounds like You have very different feelings W slash r slash T your, and its relationship to alcohol. We've gone to pools together, Adam. You know what my body looks like. I don't, because you're wearing a t-shirt and jeans. You say that it's all part of your deal to shrink your 501s, but I mean, this has happened so many times, I've beginning to doubt that you have 30 pairs of 501 genes.

Well, this was a very horrible episode from my past that I don't relish reliving at them, but the episode we came here to talk about today is also about a horrible episode from the past. Should we get into the episode? Nice pivot, man. Yeah, let's do. It's a Deep Space 9 Season 1 Episode 7. DAX, or as I like to call it, the measure of an ancholiotaur. This episode starts with Julian Bashir and Jadziah Dax. I think Bashir is on a date and Dax is at a working lunch. And they're both at the Rainforest Cafe.

And he's like, you know, like, how about another, how about another cup of coffee? And she's like, oh, sorry, it'll keep me up. And he's like, I've got ideas about the ways to keep you up. And what's going on here seems pretty pervy, doesn't it? Dog, you are in a work environment. That is, that for sure rises to the level of an HR complaint. How many HR complaints do you think Dax has filed in her hundreds of years of life? It's probably like, she's probably like no stranger to it.

In both, in every form she's taken. Mm-hmm. She's been, she's filed them and she's also had them filed against her. Ben, I think even before this scene, we get a commander's log saying that O'Brien has taken Keko back to Earth for her mom's 100th birthday. Thus giving us the reason for his absence from the episode.

Ben, I was aching for this to be the B story. How much would you like to cut back and forth from the station to earth? And O'Brien in the Kekko family living room, like absorbing birthday festivities. Just like chicken as watch. Well, like getting self-defense drunk, like at the birthday party. Miles, haven't you had enough punch? Get off my back.

Oh man, O'Brien's absence doesn't really wind up being much of a factor in this episode, does it? No, no. I feel like I wonder if it was that Kalimini had something better to do, or if it was like, eh, there's not really a great way to write him into this one, so let's just, let's just get him out of here. Kalimini didn't tell anyone, but he's at a notation for another show. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha shadows are some temple-loved men who are identifying dax as dax and they tail her.

And they really look like they're up to no good from head to toe. They've got the hoods, but they also have metallic gloves and stuff. They look pretty nasty. And dax is off by herself. like metallic gloves and stuff, like they look pretty nasty and... Dax is off by herself, like Julian has proposed that they go back to her room and fuck. That's not necessarily Julian. Oh.

Oh good night then. And like when the second Gleeves he's like, maybe isn't no! Like, uh... He does that. That awful math that too many dudes do, which is like she didn't specifically say no. Finally elevating Bashir up to the level of ultra skin crawly.

Yeah, right. So he's following her back to her place and catches her ducks. Getting abducted in the hallway by these creeps with the temple loaf and instead of calling security he just like rushes into the fray pretty quickly gets his ass whooped and the temple loaf guys take off Jidzi's con badge and move on they drag her out of there. Bishir is the form of chaotic patriarchal in that he won't take no for an answer about

walking DAX home from coffee but he also can't bring himself to hit a woman during this fight scene. Women are precious at him. Like he pulls his punch and that's why he gets his ass kicked. Yeah. He has completed his character reveal as a total fucking creep. So that's our that's our throw to theme. And when we come back, he is like he's like coming out of a day's slumped on the floor of the hallway. And he radios up to ops that Jadzia has been

attacked and that he needs help and they identify her location as being right next to him and he's like no they took her combat off nice try guys. And so they like lock down the station. They're you know closing doors, shutting down pylons, sealing off levels 4 through 12. Why not levels all? Who knows? But, uh, but yeah, they're, and then they're like, they're doing a hard target search through the free, uh,

every outhouse chicken house, hen house. Right. And the people that are abducting decks, like, no where to go to avoid being on security cameras. They know like where there's the security camera that does that swishpan back and forth. Like they know at what point to walk down the hallway and on the corner so that they don't show up. They do that thing when you leave your garage where you step over the invisible electric i-beam. Exactly.

Ben, I was thinking like, is there a limit to how long and thin Odo could make himself? Like, could he turn himself into a string of Christmas lights that went all the way around the station and down every hallway, thus making him like a security system that covered every square foot. If you can get as small as a rat, what is the upper limit to how big he could get? That's what I'm saying. I want to know more about him, is that why? I have so many questions.

Very interesting thing you have proposed. I don't know that I've ever heard anybody bring that up They've like figured out where like which ship they're going to because they've narrowed it down to like There's a handful of ships that are faster than runabouts so they would, they would know that we wouldn't be able to chase them and they're going for this one particular one. They put up force fields, the guys have a way to dismantle the force fields. They get out of there, the tractor beam has been knocked out a commission and Cisco manages to flush whatever's coming up the works out just in time to grab their ship before it warps out of the system. It's a real close call because the entire time this this hooded sweatshirt

crew has been one step ahead of the crew throughout. Like how do they not realize that their tractor beam didn't work until now? You are fully talked, bro. I guess this is where Chief O'Brien's absence kind of plays in in an interesting way. Oh yeah, that makes sense. The fact that the station is always kind of breaking down is, and especially pressing issue right now. You got to believe O'Brien would use any excuse not to go back to Earth And especially pressing issue right now.

You got to believe O'Brien would use any excuse not to go back to Earth for this mother-in-law 100th birthday. Like, the survival of everyone on the station would be a good reason, but I guess not. I can just picture him suggesting the cake or like, you know, a little time away from each other. We've been in each other's hair since we moved in here, you know I certainly have gone through that with with my move to LA, you know I stayed into Airbnb's where there was just no no space

Like in the car all day going and looking at different apartments. It gets gets a little fructive, you know I've said it a million times you want to miss the person you're with that's healthy. Yeah, not that O'Brien would actually miss her TPH he'd be down at courts getting hammered whole goddamn time. Yeah, well they get They get these guys back aboard they just come out of the airlock and you know When the security detail are there with their phasers and these guys come out. Jadzi looks a little like dazed almost drugged in a way. Yeah, it's weird. I'm really addressed.

No. This dude is... I don't recall her getting like roughed up to the point where she was knocked out, right? In the... In the melee. No, I mean she definitely looked dazed when they were like dragging her around though. If anyone should be dazed at Spasheer who just got his fucking ass kicked in that hallway. Yeah.

Oh, he said he doesn't have a lot to contribute to the, to the storyline after this. So, he's probably just just on on bedrest. Yeah. We meet the like the main guy of the abductors, introduces himself to Cisco is Elon Tandro, and he is from a planet that the federation has an extradition treaty with, and he is like, hey listen, I was just doing what our treaty says I can do, which is unilaterally extra date anybody I want if they've been accused of a crime on my planet. The fuck kind of treaty it allows for this. That's a terrible treaty. Who wrote that? We need you. We need you. There are lots and lots of countries that don't

extradite prisoners to the US if they're accused of crimes that could have a capital punishment applied to them because most of the rest of the world does not have capital punishment. Who wrote that treaty, Henry Kissinger? The federation is like, yeah, we'll extradite an enlisted serving officer, like a commission serving officer to a planet that is going to kill her if she's found guilty. No problem.

Wow. It really, I mean, if the ship had escaped, how different of the story would we have gotten? Like diplomatically, it would have been a whole lot more charged up, I think. Yeah, this would have been that like episode where the Singapore government wanted to cane that guy. Right. I mean, yeah, like the, the, the episode we would have gotten would have been like spy game where, you know, the Federation doesn't want to have a diplomatic incident with Clastron 4,

but Cisco, you know, calls in favors and gets a couple of Black Hawk helicopters with special ops guys to descend on the prison and extract Dax under the cover of night, you know Clastron four sounds like it sounds like a caustic like Tobin tile cleaner that when you buy from the guy at Home Depot, he's like, look man, you really got to wear a mask when you use this in a few minutes. Pretty intense. Mask and gloves, you're going to have a bad time.

So Cisco is like, well, we're gonna look into this and we're sending a message to your planet to confirm whether your warrant is real. And he sits down with Odo and is like, man, the sex, they were just trying to abduct her. And Odo's like, yeah, well, if she did the murder that they're accusing her of, then she should burn. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about, dude?

This happened 30 years ago. This wasn't Jets, it was X. It was Kersan tax. So this is a story about whether or not the angliosaur is able to be punished for crimes no matter what container it inhabits which is a fairly fascinating question. Yeah. It would be insane for this to be the first time that question was encountered in this universe like.

Exactly. And they, and they, there are lots of trill around. uh... was encountered in this universe like exactly and they and they there are lots of trill around they pay a little lip service to the idea that they're going to look into legal precedent w slash r slash t anglicious or continuity uh... but it's never really paid off so they got a bring in an arbiter

to mediate this argument between the Federation as represented by Cisco and this Elon Tandro, right? Well, let's explain why. And this is, I think my favorite part of the episode is that they find a legal loophole, which is that deep space nine is not technically a Federation jurisdiction. It's a bejure jurisdiction and they have no

extradition treaty with Claystron. Claystron. So like the reason Tandra was doing all this cloak and dagger shit, it was more because he was worried that the issue of the fact that they're extracting her from a bejure and jurisdiction was actually going to get in his way. Which is fucked up because like what he did is illegal and yet they don't seem to consider that a punishable offense. Right. It's like those guys that beamed onto the prom and not and started shooting a couple of episodes ago and they're like, well, that's just your culture, man.

Can't judge. They are super permissive here. It's a very, a very groovy station that Cisco's running. So this, yeah, they bring on this mediator lady. I'm 100 years old. I do not have time to squander listening to superfluous language. Who is a bejure in some kind of bejure in legal authority, though you could confuse her for

Klingon based on the kind of gavel she brings with her. You could also confuse her with Roshan Uxbridge. Hmm, hmm. Which... Oh, we thought that it might make us fall in love all over again. It worked. This story becomes far more interesting if you consider that it may in fact be her and she's been on the run from Kevin the whole time. Like maybe she didn't... Now everyone knows that Rashan Uxbridge died on the bridge of the Enterprise D.

But what my theory presupposes is... Maybe she's just hiding from Kevin Uxbridge died on the bridge of the Enterprise D, but what my theory presupposes is, maybe she's just hiding from Kevin Uxbridge? Benjamin Sisko. I'll have you know that there's someone else who does not recognize extradition treaties on 4th deep spree 9th and it is the doubt. tradition treaties on board deep space 9, and it is the doubt. A colleague of mine from the Ku continuum was recently aboard your station and clued me into the situation there. I was under the impression that the Hussnak had taken the life of my wife, and that Captain Becurd had taken the life of my real doll replacement of her.

In point of fact, she had been living in Cognito among the Bedurans. You could see how this would be very sexually confusing for me. As before this time I did not know I could be so attracted to be Jorange. Yet here I am. Now I'm in the- Now I'm in the Bizarre Catch 22 of strongly considering killing all Burans everywhere, but also being totally erratically charged up by a Beduran nose bridge. I've turned the open shine around to closed, I'm a real door shop. I've packed a bin doll, and I'm on my way to you station, thank you, Scope. I plan on having this reserved shortly.

Tell the Bedurans the spiritual people they are to get ready to have a god in their prison. A god who is DTF. DTF Really nice to see To see Anne Haney back again She's a she's got just a great carriage about her. I really like her. I mean in this as this character as Elis Renora She's a total hard-ass. Yeah who really does not have any patience for any guff hard ass who really does not have any patience for any guff. Totally. Is there to like, to hear out the like claims that Cisco and Elon are making and make like

a totally dispassionate call about what to do here? She is, like the, the sort of damacly is fully hanging over Dax, which is why it is so disconcerting for Cisco that Dax like doesn't seem to give a shit. This was just as frustrating to me because, you know, on and on Cisco is like, when did Jetsia Dax get replaced with format Dax? Pfft. Pfft.

Pfft. Pfft. Pfft. Pfft. Pfft. They're really gonna have a hard time cramming that Ankleo sore into a floor mat. Cis goes like, come on! Like, it's fucking crazy to me that you're hundreds of years old and you have no self-preservation instinct in the face of a capital crime. And it's just frustrating to me too. Like, there is no reason given why...

I mean, there's a flimsy reason given why she doesn't want to talk about the circumstances that have put her here. But, there is no reason given as to why she does not seem willing to defend herself at all. Like there is a defense, and if you don't want to go with the defense that's embarrassing, you can still defend yourself. Yeah, when Cisco is working through what their defense strategy is gonna be here. He gives Kira the job of looking into legal precedent for trills, which is like, you have a trill on your station that has been a diplomat and been in the mix for a long time.

Like go ask her. They bring in this trill expert witness, DJ Qualls. And like, like the whole reason they bring him in is because, because Dax won't defend herself in any way. The only person more irritated about the circumstance than Cisco is Kira. And I keep coming back to this question Ben which is how do you direct Nanavisitor because I feel like over and over again it just must be telling her all right

that's great let's do another take but this time give me a little less irritation. She is just utterly irritated her Her resting state is irritation. And it's what I love about her, but like good Lord, she is like, she's taking a blowtorch to everyone and everything around her just at all times. Like the funnest scene for sure in the episode is in the guy tries to like duck out

of having a conversation with her by saying, I'm talking to your commander and Cisco guys. Oh yeah. No, you're talking to my first officer right now, but like he totally like, he totally like, is unhooking the leash from her choke collar in that moment. Like all I want is a, all I want in my life

is a, is a Kira to do all my negotiating for me. Like I want her to buy my car. I want her to do all my negotiating for me. I want her to buy my car, I want her to do all my business dealings, I want her to negotiate on my behalf, because she is a monster in that way, in a way that I really love, in a way that I am not.

I would pay her $450 an hour for that. Fucking A. Go to Kotlin. Go to Kotlin. that. Fucking A. Gold to cotton, gold to cotton. So. Odo gets sent to Clastron 4 and initially he's just reporting back from Planet Computer Panel. Like we don't see the planet at all for a long time and it's him saying, like, you know, like this, this general that Dax stands accused of having murdered is a kind of legendary dooder down here when he got killed. His army went so ape that they wound up winning the war.

And so he's kind of like a, he's like a hero of the state. There are statues of him all over the place. And he's only survived by his wife, and her son is the guy that's there trying to kill Dax. So Cisco puts him on going and meeting up with the general's wife. And she turns out to be portrayed by another lady from TNG to be portrayed by another lady from TNG history. Vianula Flanagan. That's right. Bringing back the heavy hitters.

Seriously, this is Data's mom, right? That's true. Yeah. Unclears to whether or not she is a robot person in this universe. But there's like two parallel really interesting questions at play. There's the whole like the trial being about the difference between the memory of a thing and the complicity in that thing. And that's interesting to me. But there's also like the thing with the widow and that like and she's sort of a Jackie Kennedy figure, right? Like what happens when an imperfect person gets lionized?

And what's the consequence to the person who's left behind? This is pretty heady stuff. Really, really interesting questions. On the heels of a word salad episode, you know? Like, at this point in the story, I was like, where did this come from? This is very sophisticated. Yeah, it's, and it's also interesting in like a future context, because like, like the way Dax's behaving winds up getting explained to be like the like symbiont dax trying to preserve the honor of

anina tandro like on the idea that her having been her having had infidelity with her husband would be so so shameful to her and so damaging to to like their culture's sense of history that she won't do it. Like, Dax refuses to defend herself basically to protect this woman. But it just seems so unnecessary. Like, the point I was trying to make earlier that I probably made inarticulately was that like, there is still a defense even without that. Like you can choose not to make that a part of your evidence while still making the attempt. Right. And like the defense that Cisco is pursuing doesn't hinge on the facts of the case

ever coming out. Right. It's entirely based on whether, on whether Jadziya Dax is considered a distinct person from Kersan Dax or not. Right. And I want to know what Jadziya Dax's opinion is on that. That would be really interesting to me. It seems like kind of both, you know, like based on what the other trail says, it's like, yeah, like from some perspectives, you could call it a distinct person and others you couldn't. And like that's that guy's opinion, but like who cares about that guy? We don't know who that guy is. There's a lot of muddying of the enkyo, enkyo, enkylosaur waters here. I believe it's pronounced Brontosaurus.

In that, you know, like a number of different witnesses, you know, like DJ calls makes the claim that, you know, once the symbiotic relationship is established, it is a mutual personality merging between Enkylosaur and host. And yet Dr. Bashir makes the case that, you know, there are two separate brainwave patterns going on. So there's like, on the one hand, there is proof that they are totally commingled beings, and on the other hand, there's scientific proof that they're separate. And so one could make the case either way, at this point in the trial that either there is a inherent responsibility that a current ankylo sore would be responsible for the past containers actions and also the exact opposite.

They talk a lot about in this hearing the fact that it is not a trial, like they're not attempting to establish guilt or not. It seems like everybody treats it as a foregone conclusion that guilt would be established if DAX gets extradited. Right. That seems weird, right? Do they have that little faith in the Clestron justice system? Yeah, not a great reputation over there. They've got the death penalty and also play fast and loose with the facts. When sentencing somebody, what does that remind me of? Sounds like a real kangaroo cord over there. Real drumhead situation.

Yeah. Yeah The reveal when when they find out that that Kerson was banging Anina is like like really changes the changes the game and like she winds up deciding to go with Odo to Deep Space 9 to make a very dramatic last-minute entry into the courtroom to say like enough is enough. This is all a charade and the reason that Terazon couldn't have sent the transmission

that caused my husband to get killed is because I had, I was like holding on to his penis at the moment that he would have had to do it. Mother, what are you talking about? So she proves the innocence of Terazon with her quote-unquote embarrassing admission. Which makes it even more weird, like they have an alibi for everybody else who could have sent the transmission. Right. So it's still total speculation as to who the actual murder was. Right.

So that part is unresolved, but the other part that is so deeply unsatisfying about the end of this episode is that the question of DAX's guilt had, had curves on been guilty of such a thing. Like, the overarching question of guilt, W slash R slash T, like containers and acutal sores is totally unresolved. And that is worth resolving. I totally agree. I think they do some really good world building about what like the mechanics

of being a join trill are and it's interesting to learn that like lots of trill aren't joined and that it's like something that you have to compete to get and to big honor. Yeah. That stuff is all super interesting but yeah like the like measure of a man resolves with like we we all like walk away from that episode Feeling pretty confident that we've seen a compelling argument in favor of an artificial life form being a full person with all the rights and Responsibilities that that confers and in this episode. I don't think that they Had the nerve to kind of answer their own questions. That is what makes measure of a man such a great episode and why this is so unsatisfying at its conclusion here.

Like I'm totally with you on that. To put you on the spot, Ben, do you think that the crimes of a previous trial are on the current Trills container, if you had to decide given the evidence of this episode? I would say no. And I think partly that's because I'm kind of naturally predisposed to think that punishment is not necessarily a great way to deal with crime. I don't think that the majority of crime is being effectively deterred by the idea of punishment. The reason I don't go around breaking into cars is not really that

I would get thrown in jail if I did. It's that if, uh, it's that like I respect other people's shit, you know. And I think that like most of the time when people are committing crimes, it is because they are either desperate or mentally ill or a combination of the two, or are just unable to sympathize with others. And so I think the reason that I don't side with Elon's way of thinking in this

is the same reason that I don't, like, I think that like the justice system in the United States is badly broken. It's like, I don't, I think there are, like if somebody commits a crime, like even if the symbiont is like disproportionately responsible for the actions of the joint trail. I still don't think extradition should be honored.

Do you, would you be for a form of like statute of body limitations? Like, because... Like, well, yeah, but he makes a great point there. Like, it's like running for the Mexican border and the second the symbiante is in a different body, it's out of the jurisdiction or whatever. Yeah, it's a fascinating question to consider that on the one hand, if Kerson had done the murder or had done something awful, try to consider

to cry more awful than murder,. Multi-murder. What if DAX were truly evil? DAX was put into a truly innocent container. How do you punish the container for that? It's an, like, and that is, that's something that I wish this episode had the guts to ask and answer. It's like so much more interesting of a premise than the, like, trashy 80s horror premise of, like, heart transplantive of murderer. And then that person is like, you got the evil spirit within them or whatever? We don't know or care who Ardolantandro is. Like make him murdered in a grisly way, make it awful.

We don't care about him. Like, tell us the specifics of it. Do we think Jax is capable of that? And that's another question that they raise and don't really answer. Like the like Cisco is trying to tell Odo like that's not who DAX is or who Curzon DAX was and Odo's like, I don't give a fuck. Like let's find out what the facts are. Right, and that's where I met too, but I just wish I wish the crime was amplified. I wish the crime was true because it would make the outcome matter in a way that it doesn't hear.

It's just sound inferior signifying nothing. Dang. So did you like this episode? In spite of its many, many flaws, I still like the attempt. I like that we've had a couple of slapsticky non-toothie stories in the first half of season one, and this feels like the first attempt to go hard-track. And that feels good, and so I admire the attempt. It does not mean that I was satisfied by its conclusion. So I don't know, like maybe after the entire first season is over with, my answer would be different, but I think I'm more on the side of liking the episode than disliking the

episode in spite of its many flaws. Can you wish that Arbiter had sent somebody to jail with that Rupente brand gavill? I kinda wish the Arbiter had called another expert witness. Someone who knows everything. Everywhere. Your Honor, I would like to make a deposition. Your Honor, I will look past how distracted I am by your nose. I see the way you handle that giant ball.

You give me all kinds of ideas. You know, this body is just a shell that I made for myself and it could really take on any form. I could increase the size of my balls. However large you want. Is that what you want? Is that why you left me? Look at me, Roshan. I too have a nose bridge now.

It's just that easy for me. I had no idea I was only a nose bridge away from your heart. What I'm trying to say, baby, is that I can change. Then do we have any priority one messages? Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. Priority one message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Need a supplement only.

supplement? supplement. supplement. Yeah it, extra. The interest alone could be enough to buy this ship. Ben our first priority one message. Is it about personal nature? It's from Ellen. It is for Tommy.

The time that this message was preferred was before the show ends. Oh no. I mean, if that means deep space nine, we're good. Yeah, I have a feeling. I have a feeling that's not what they meant, but I sure hope Tommy and Alan are still listening. Message goes like this, dear brother, happy birthday! It's a month early, but there are only three more episodes of this show, so it's now or never. Oh no, this is hard-breaking. It's very very belated birthday at this point. Thanks for recommending TGG to me. It's one of my favorite things in the world. I wasn't going to watch Discovery, but maybe we can make it through with the help of the

new pod. And if it's awful, we can hate watch it together. Thanks Tommy and Alan, really sorry about the belation to this birthday message that we were we were very swamped at the all resin plveem's fault yeah yeah happy birthday nonetheless hope you're still around and you hear this message yeah our next message is from Jane and it is for Steve. Happy anniversary! It looks like this will air two months late. But better late than never. I'm so glad that I'm engaged to marry you, and I can't wait to do so.

Then my weird will be inextricably linked with your weird forever more. You're the best, and I love you. Ben and Adam, can you mash up Harry Picard with the schism to drop? I suppose that would sort of sound like That is a, those are two great tastes that don't taste very great together. Like peanut butter and apple sauce. Congratulations, Stephen Jane on your anniversary. That sounds like, you guys sound like a great couple. Yeah.

Good match there. Good symbiotic match. Mm-hmm. If you have enjoyed these P1s and don't mind that they are so late, you can go to MaximumFun.org slash JumboTron, where personal messages 100 bucks and a commercial message is 200 bucks.

It's a great way to support the production of this show and get your message out there to lots and lots of fun, cool people. Hey Adam! What's up, man? Did you find yourself a drunk Shimoda? I really had a hard time finding one in this episode. Maybe hearing yours will inspire me to make a decision. I know that's a dodge. It's a dodge we've occasionally made at this function.

I'm for sure done that to you several times. Yeah, what have you got? I'm gonna give it to the trill witness that they called. What did you say the guy's name was? I called him DJ Quals, given his uncanny appearance, given his uncanny resemblance to DJ Quals. Yeah, I feel like this guy could clear everything up, but he just seems like he doesn't want to be there,

he doesn't want to answer anybody's questions, and yet here he is. He's like a magician that doesn't want to break character and just like slinks around doing hand gestures, and like, speaking mysteriously, like, yeah, you're totally right. Like like he could just be like okay Well, like listen, Trill is part of the federation and so if we're saying that this is a federation matter like here is the legal president and

If not like here is why we arrived at that as the president Like he's a fucking lawmaker, right? He's like a, he's like a member of parliament or something. If the trail have been around for a thousand years, they had to have come up with this problem before. He's lived seven lifetimes with this symbiont and is like a deer in headlights at the prospect of this question. It's so insane. A smirk and a shrug is totally insufficient. Like, this guy's an idiot. And he's their expert witness. Their case is fucked.

Did you have a drunksum about Adam? Yeah, I mean, I feel like it may be Dax in that she's so willing to just be the observer in her own life. Like she is, talk about like sort of a meta-existence. Like she's a thing inside another thing who has then stepped back from her life to sort of observe the trial happening around her. Like, what a weird way to exist.

And then, I suppose the only moment, the only thing that makes Beshear less of a dark figure is if DAX is totally in the driver's seat of that relationship and is waiting to destroy him in the most embarrassing public way. That's the thing that I'm waiting for is the other shoe to drop on on Bashir and for Dax to just destroy him. Like, that could be, but that's also like, this is me projecting story onto people where that story doesn't necessarily exist in the episode. So fairly flimsy Shimoda on my part, but I think that's the best I can do in this case.

Fairly serious sober episode. Indeed. Ben, what do we have coming up on the next episode? The next episode is season one, episode eight, The Passinger. A sinister alien criminal hides his consciousness in the brain of someone aboard the station. Man, talk about cheesy 80s horror concepts. Yeah, I mean, okay. We're really like given what the first eight episodes of this show have been and will be like, I don't know that we could get a more disparate selection of storylines here.

They're really all over the place. This one feels like a weird one to butt up against the one we just watched, but we'll see how it goes. Do you wanna find out if we will be drinking a lot while doing? All right, why not? And our random number is six. That means we will not be getting shit house drunk while watching the episode. Hmm, saved again.

Saved again by randomness. Well, one thing that saves us every time is the constructive kind and incredibly funny commiseration that happens. The end of every show on our many social media outlets. We've got a Facebook and Twitter, Reddit, places all where our viewership gathers and talks about the mistakes we've made, the jokes we've made, and about the source material that we're discussing. So I'd highly encourage anyone who's interested in our show to participate in those conversations. It is a great deal of fun. We should thank Dark Material for our theme music and Adam Magusia for a lot of the other music that you hear on the show. And I would encourage anybody that's listening,

if you like our show, to go to Maximumfund.org and check out all of the other great shows that they have on the network. There's a ton of great ones. And if you are moved by this show to help support its production, you can go to Maximumfund.org slash Donate and become a monthly supporter. And it really, really helps. production, you can go to maximumfund.org slash donate and becoming monthly supporter and it really really helps. It's a it's a real game changer for us.

And with that we'll be back at you next time with another great episode of Star Trek Deep Space 9 and another episode of the greatest generation Deep Space 9 which hides our own brains cool Make it sound. Make it sound. You'll know the color of the U.S. Make it sound. You'll know the color of the U.S. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound.

You'll know the color of the U.S. Make it sound. Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artist-owned. or comedy and culture, artist owned. Listen or supported.