The Greatest Generation - The Littler The Fruit, The Sweeter The Juice (DS9 S6E13)

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

When Captain Sisko begins to take the losses personally in the war against the Dominion, he questions whether or not he’s up to the task. But when he’s transported to a world where somehow things are worse, he’ll discover whether he’s “tuff enuff” for future challenges. Can you just take any lemon you can reach? What’s the worst thing you can get away with saying after inhaling helium? Is there a secret ingredient to Ben Sisko’s jambalaya? It’s the episode that’s a real student of the game!

Priority 1 message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Hey friends of Disodo. Before today's episode, we just wanted to take a moment to talk about the historic labor actions being taken by writers and actors in the American Film and Television industry. If you're a fan of the work done by the people who make Star Trek, we hope you'll join us in standing in solidarity with the folks who actually bring these adventures to life. Over the past several years, the AMPTP, the organization that represents the American Film and Television Production Studios, have reduced the profit from movies and TV going to workers. And in so doing,

they've attempted to weaken the labor unions that represent those workers. They wouldn't even engage the unions on many issues in their negotiations. And so a strike was the only course of action to take. Adam, Wendy and I have been having a lot of internal discussions about how best to stand with the unions and we are continuing those conversations in a dynamic situation. We're doing our best to understand where the picket lines are in these digital spaces,

and we would never intentionally cross one. With the information we have, we feel like we can do more good talking about and supporting the strike and continuing our show as planned. We'll keep you informed about what all this means for greatest trek specifically. Today we're making a contribution to the Entertainment Community Fund. This fund exists to help all the people whose livelihoods have been put on hold because the AMPTP refuses to negotiate

in good faith with the unions. It provides financial support for writers, actors, and all the thousands of laborers who make the shows that we talk about here and without whom we wouldn't have Star Trek to cast pot about. Those folks are all out of work because billionaires, company shareholders, and the executives of these companies don't want to compromise on the length of their yachts. We hope you'll join us in supporting entertainment workers in a challenging time, especially after they've already endured several years of challenges brought on by the pandemic

and season two of Star Trek Picard. We've set up a page where you can also contribute. It's at friendsofdecotoforlabor.com. That's friendsofdececoto for Labor.com. That's FriendsOfDecoto for Labor.com. Link in the episode description. Okay, now let's get on with the show. Here's to the finest generation deep space nine. It's a Star Trek podcast by a couple of guys who are a little bit embarrassed about having a Star Trek podcast.

I'm Adam Pryanaka. I'm Ben Harrison. No longer looking at each other during we've shut that shit off. Here's a pro tip if you're podcasting remotely out there. The video's not worth it. It adds too much complication. Yeah. It's not fun.

Certainly not sexy. It's not sexy like it should be time. Don't want to look at you. Never have. Yeah. This is why when we did live shows, often a venue would offer like the six foot banquet table. Yeah, no, we go with the 12-foot.

Every time. Put a lot of distance, and if there's a room divider that we could have, the dating game where the Bachelor can't see the three eligible Bachelorette. Exactly. That's what we're looking for. If they don't have that kind of curtain partitioning, then confession booth style is how I like to do the show. Yeah.

Just stick me in a big wooden box. Yeah. The couple of air holes. I wanna be a reality TV show contestants in 1998, if possible. Yeah, so much more comfortable now, not looking at each other during. I'm just looking at waveforms.

I'm looking at a great big rum drink. God, look at you. I didn't make my bag beverage today. Yeah. But I had some blood oranges, so I made a blood orange daiquiri. That sounds real nice. Hey, let me ask you a question that's California specific. Okay.

You've lived here a while. If I'm out, and I'm walking my pulper. Do you talk about Sprocket the Dog? Sprocket the Dog, one of the great dogs. One of the all-time greats. I have often observed the many varieties and sizes of citrus trees. In my neighborhood, many of them, you know, behind the fences of the homes that I walk past, but some of these ben have branches that hang over the sidewalk.

Am I allowed to pick the citrus from those sidewalk hanging branches? Is that allowed or is that stealing? I imagine that this will be controversial, but I think those are fair game. I haven't done it yet, because I don't want to get caught doing it. Here's my here's my thinking Adam. Having lived here for a few years now, one constant of

non-social distance life in Los Angeles is that anytime you see anyone that has a yard, they are a foisting citrus on you. They have too much and they need to get rid of it. And around my neighborhood, people even put out a crate of citrus and write a little note on it that says, please take some lemons or whatever. There are no crates in my neighborhood. Yeah, but honestly, like more is being produced than single households can consume. Like, if you have one citrus tree in your yard in

Los Angeles, like I defy you to find anyone that's actually getting through all of what they're growing. So I think if you want to pop a pomelo off of a tree and take it home with you, I think you're I think you're like well within reason doing that. I used to get really pommelowed in middle school. The memory I'd like to forget. Okay. Well, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to pick a scam. Hey, follow-up question.

Sure. Do people put citrus trees and containers and grow them on their balconies? Because I have a balcony. Yeah. Can I grow pommelow there? You could definitely do that. I have two citrus trees in my front yard,

one of which I have done a very bad job attending. It's a Myre lemon bush that I think is in a much too small pot and I need to re-pot, but we have also just like a regular lemon tree that we got maybe two months ago. And it looks like it's about to start yielding some fruit and it is also a potted plant. It was like this for you and Jack?

No. It was another fella. Really miss Roger Cook, TVA. I feel like he's a guy that if I didn't ask this old house, he'd have tips on container gardening, a citrus tree. But what I'd really want to know is this policy on like neighborhood walks and whether or not you should grab a neighbor's citrus.

He would send you his social security card in the mail accidentally, and then in the process of getting it back would give you all the answers. Tell you this, this lemon tree that we have, like you can see the fruits, but they're like the size of a grape right now. You know, I've always said the littler, you know, like you can see the fruits, but they're like the size of a grape right now. You know, I've always said the littler, the fruit, the sweeter the juice.

That's what I'm saying. Oh. Yeah, that's- I've always said that. That's something I've asked you to stop saying. You know what I'm saying? But I keep saying it. We just-

No one ever likes it. Yeah, you bring it up all the time, apropos of nothing. And we're like, why does Adam keep saying that? Anyways, what I was gonna say is this tree is right near the fence, and it's also right below the window that I sit next to when we're recording our show.

And in the thought experiment where I see somebody walk by and pop one of our lemons off of that thing, I bear that person no will will. I mean, you're a gentle soul. That's what that tells me. As generous of a spirit as a wrongly believe I have. I know that would upset me if I saw someone stripping a citrus tree that I owned. I wouldn't like that. No one's going to mind if someone takes one or two, right? Here's the thing Adam.

You haven't been down here long enough to understand what a problem it is, the amount of citrus. It's literally like we are throwing away rotten citrus here in Los Angeles. The shame. I'm excited to experience that. Yeah, welcome to your citrus privilege. Yeah. Well, one especially sweet piece of fruit in all of the DS9 neighborhood comes from the episode we're here to talk about. Dave, and isn't that right? Boy, that was a tortured metaphor if ever there was one

Yeah, one of the biggest two look at how low this fruit hangs yeah, how about a little bit less of a tortured metaphor As we get into deep space 9 season 6 episode 13 far beyond the stars Do you realize how incredible this is? No, of course you don't. This episode opens with a very stressed out Captain Sisko. You can tell he's stressed out because his desk is piled high with iPads. Yeah, he's got a room full of iPads and he has none of those expended power rods that signify all of their many victories in this war. What iPads then rods, that's a bad ratio. Kira is there, she's telling him about how the USS Cortez

went missing, the little D tried to find it, but it failed. This was a ship that was patrolling the Cardassian border and it looks like the Cardassian border is a dangerous thing to patrol. You never know when you're going to run into a squadron of Gemhara fighters. I mean there was like a peace talk conference a few episodes ago. Yeah, it seems like things have really slipped. Peace does not seem to be on the menu anymore.

Peace is not on the menu boys. Yeah, it's interesting the terminology that Ben Sisko uses here. He takes the many losses personally, and it's not just because he was friends with Captain Swafford, it's that these many losses, he speaks of are his. He uses eye words about the losses,

as if it's not just federation losses, they're his personally. He's got the weight of the alpha quadrant on his shoulders. I don't think that's fair. Why is he putting it all in him? Yeah, that sucks for Ben Sisko. Yeah, what must it be like to blame yourself for so many bad things happening in the universe? Yeah, what's wrong with Ben Sisko that he does that? I can't think of anyone I know that does that. Um, one way you know that peace talks have peace talks have been perverted and ignored Adam is that

Admiral Cartwright shows up. I must protest. He's like, hey, Ben Sisko, maybe you haven't tried bringing them to their knees so that you can then dictate terms. Any interest in, say, turning the gem at R into the alien trash of the galaxy? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha far less fanfare than it should, right? Because like, yeah. He refused in no uncertain terms to ever come visit Deep Space Nine, ever leave the restaurant behind. Right. Here he is. And it's the last man on the volcano. He's like, that's his vibe.

And he says, if not now, when? You know what? It feels like Benzisco could have treated this moment with the kind of apprehension that that characters usually Treat ahead of visits by Luxana Troy. You know Like just what you need when you're going through a thing as a visit from your dad, right? Right. Yeah, there would have been a Fun scene of Ben's just sneaking around in the hallways. Yeah, his dad wanting to nudely marry someone his dad wanting to nudely marry someone. It's a very liberty in man.

I got the sense that Joe has been around for a few days though. This is a- The visits very lived in. Yeah, he's stopping by the office as part of his vacation. Day four of the vacation or whatever. Have you ever had a family member come visit you at work? Like do the, hey show me where you work. Kind of, kind of situation.

You mean show me the front bedroom of your little apartment? I'm in back when you used to have a real job. I've had a real job like one time and it was for nine months. Yeah. And my parents did not visit the city I lived in when I had it. Lucky you. I mean, back when I used to work at a grocery store and at a movie theater, like my retail jobs were such that like they were in the neighborhood where I lived and where my parents lived.

So they would come in all the time. Yeah. That's not comfortable. I tried to get a job at the grocery store in my neighborhood when I was a kid. And it was like a small enough grocer that the guy who ran, the manager of the grocery store, was like a guy that we would like know to say hi to.

And I personally asked him if you would consider me for a stock boy position or something like that. And... Were you dressed like an old-timey stock boy when you asked him? I said hey mister How's about giving a local kid a job. What do you say? He said you go to a high school that gives too much homework and you wouldn't be able to keep up with the hours that I would need to give you Wow That is a hell of a thing to make up in the moment. I really respect that guy's lying game. I mean, he was saved himself a lot of trouble. I did not have a spare

20 hours a week in my in my teen days. No one did. No. So the question between Joe Sisko and his son at this point is, should Ben Sisko take a step back? Like, he's actually seriously considering maybe either taking a break or stepping down from his position. Let someone else make the tough cause. Well, you see, the going has gotten tough for Ben Sisko. The tough do get going. That's the rule, right?

Yeah, but he hasn't decided whether or not he's the tough you know that song is that Pearl Jam I think it's by the fabulous thunderbirds huh does Eddie Vetter sing for them no but it's like one of the early rock songs where I feel like the lead vocalist is very, very early, sort of a proto-yarl vocalist. 1985, the fabulous Thunderbirds, tough enough is the name of the song and it's spelled with two Fs in both of those words. I think my character in Skyrim was considered a proto-yarl. I think my character in Skyrim was considered a proto-yarl. I've just Jackie and Laurie do the video.

You're gonna love it. Oh, okay, should we just pause the podcast and watch a music video right now? Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, music. During this conversation, Ben Sisko is distracted. He's distracted by what he believes to be a dapper Odo walking outside his door. He says, was that Odo? It would have been great if he had walked outside and that's just Odo's new look. You know I can look like anything. I'm trying to blend in. I thought I would make your father feel more comfortable if I dressed more old-timing. In retrospect, that was a terrible choice, especially in the context of this episode, which is about how things between black people and white people used to be even worse than now. I mean, a lot of people say that they don't see race but I feel like when you're me and you're a changeling you rarely don't see race. All you

solids look the same to me. Ben Sisko like chases out after him and everyone at Ops is looking at him like he's nuts. And my thought at this moment was, did he catch something from Dukat? I wrote the same thing down. Did Cisco catch Dukat disease? I mean, for the character, you would think that'd be pretty scary, but for the rest of the episode, this is not a thing that scares Ben Zisco. He's no stranger to hallucinations. Yeah. It's wild having had the episode Waltz be as recent as this and no discussion of that phenomenon.

But I guess, I guess DuCont didn't quite describe what he was experiencing to anyone else. So maybe it makes sense. I don't know. How many ago was Waltz? There's two episodes ago. I don't know. How many ago was Walt? Walt wasn't too- There was two episodes ago. Yeah, ancient history. This is a serialized show. We're not talking about Walt's anymore.

Walt's never even heard of it. Guess who else is ancient history that has been brought back at him? We're talking about Cassidy Yates of Cassidy Yates Freight. Yeah, haven't seen her in a long time. I think when you're feeling bad and you're walking home after work, she's gonna fix things right up.

Boy, she's a side for sore eyes. She's making them feel better and also making them feel worse because he's like, aren't you worried about being a freighter-ship captain, being swarmed by gem-hidar fighters? And she's like, no, not at all actually. Yeah, no reason.

She like picks her teeth with a knife and says, I ain't scared of death. You bitch. I've been to prison, Ben Sisko. You think I'm scared of a Jim Hedar tick? She's got fucking like jailhouse tats all over and neck and forehead and stuff. She's got a tears tattooed below her eyes and they're all like little spoons instead of tear drops. They look exactly the same except their upside down.

She is really psychotic in this episode. Just fucking killing people left and right. She's terrifying. Yeah. She's warf, but not warf. Michael Dorn dressed as a New York giant. I wonder if fuck bokeh knows who willy Hawkins is Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, fuck bokeh. I got his batting stance from the

Michael Dorne character in this episode That's what people have always said about fuck bokeh. He's a real student of the game So Ben Cisco chases after this guy this This baseball player goes into some quarters, the door shuts behind him, and then Ben Sisko opens the door, and as soon as he walks in, we get that reverse shot, where he's in the white room, he's gone someplace else, and then we reverse shot again, and he's in a 1950s American city. Yeah, he's in his uniform, but the, you know, like it's buses

and buses and 50s cabs and stuff and he gets hit by a cab, really gets hit hard and like getting hit by a vehicle of this era seems like a dead sentence. Seems like a bone shattering situation, right? Like these are not, these are not vehicles were built with safety standards in place. Right.

He wakes up and he's in 6 Bay with Cassidy and Joe and for some reason Jake and Dr. Bashir is there scanning him and this is a compared to the disease he had when he was having his profit fission visions last season, I believe. He's not going to need surgery again, is he? I'm not sure yet.

I just want to put out there that lobotomy is an option. Also you pissed yourself when you collapsed and I did take the liberty of collecting a sample. Surprise, you're pregnant. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha same as what I had before. So this isn't a disease or anything. He hands him an iPad and we cut down to that iPad and it is not an iPad but a little TV guide sized magazine called Galaxy Science Fiction. And we pan up and Ben Sisko is no longer Ben Sisko. He is now Benu Russell and in a gray flannel suit and a Trilby hat, and he's buying Galaxy Magazine from Newsboy Nog. May?

I like more stories. Dressed exactly the same way as I was dressed when I asked for that job at the grocery store. How great is it to see Aaron Eisenberg out of makeup? I love seeing everybody out of makeup. I think the outdoor stuff in this, it's obviously a studio back lot, but they really spared no expense with filling it with cars and extras. The traffic is always dense.

There's always a ton of things to look at. Tons of people in costume, people hustling and bustling and you know, steam coming up at a greats and stuff. Like a studio back lot that looks 10 times better than a, you know, like, Seinfeld trying to have a New York Street set. I totally agree. And I think one of the things you described is the thing that puts it over the top. It's the atmosphere. Like you can fill a shot with cars and people, but if you're not going that final step with the steam out of the grates or using your fogger, there's something that looks a little bit Gilmore girlsy about it, but it's those touches, those little details that really sell the place here. Kalimmini shows up, not doing an Irish accent, and he's playing Albert Maclin, and he and

Benny walk to work together. He's a guy that, like me, can't quite get the thought out of his head. He rambles a little bit. You could argue that all of the characters play versions of themselves in this episode, but I don't understand why Albert Maclin's such a fucking dope. He's really dope you this episode. That's not what O'Brien's about. Yeah, but he's a very familiar guy who wants to tell science fiction stories character to me. A person who expresses themselves better

with the written words instead of verbally. Yeah, and better via robots than via three dimensional human characters. Oh yeah. I've definitely known people like this before. I'm probably one of them, to be honest. Basically what I'm saying is Albert Maclin is me and I'm not proud of that. Albert and Benny work at Incredible Tales, which is a science fiction magazine. Competitor to

Galaxy. And the office is filled out with a number of other familiar characters who are out of the alien makeup that we would usually see them in. We've got Nanaa Visitor as Kay Eaton. We've got Armin Shimmerman as Herbert Rossoff. Paps get out of here. We've got Renee Iberzhenwa as Douglas Papsd. What's wrong now, Herb? And we've got Alexander Siddick as Julius.

White Rose Ready Tea on a polling concert. Julius Eaton. One of the neat parts of this episode is that it teaches you how pulp comics and pulp stories were made back in the 50s. And I was delighted that at least in the context of this story, they started with the illustration and worked backwards because when Martak comes in

as the illustrator for the magazine, he comes in with all these illustrations and then they just sort of draft the pictures like they're doing a dodgeball team. Let's see what Uncle Roy has for you today. They're choosing which ones they want to write about. Are you out of title this one? Please take me with you who wants it? I like that that J.G. Heard Slur kind of paced this character off of J.K. Woodward. That's great. And like the attention to

detail doesn't stop with just sets and costumes and stuff like these pictures are really great. Yeah, I like the camera lingers on them only for a moment, but you can tell that like a ton of work went into making like these really cool. And they're like the blue pencil that you do all the shapes with and then you fill in with the ink, which is really neat, very fun to see. JG Heartsler's regular speaking voice is so great

and it's emblematic of what we experienced throughout this episode is like a familiarity with someone due to their voice because you're not seeing them in the makeup you're used to. So like when you see a Mark Alamo later out of Gold to Cot makeup you're like oh that's what a speaking voice sounds like. Like there's enough of it there to be familiar but not all of it. So you I think you get a greater appreciation for how much work it takes to actually get into these characters. Yeah, Herzler's character shows one picture

that bears a great deal of resemblance to Deep Space Nine. And this is the one that Benny has drawn to. He flips past the one of the horse playing saxophone. He's like, this is a futuristic space horse playing his laser powered wind instrument. Who wants it? I think we can do something with that. There's some discussion of their publisher, Mr. Stone, who wants to run a photo of all of the authors in the magazine in the magazine next month. And Mr. Papsd tells the Kira lady maybe maybe don't come in to work that day. And Benny Benzisco also assumes that that

means him as well. And this is this is kind of the the first signpost that this is an episode about the 50s that is not going to be a nostalgia dick suck of the 50s, but rather an indictment of the horrors of living in the 50s if you weren't a white dude. One of the things I'm fond of saying on friendly fire is that a movie teaches you how to watch it. And this is the moment in this episode where you understand how you are to consume it. Like this is not the Roswell Ferengi episode at all. And this is the moment where you turn off of that road.

Yeah. And I mean, like I think that there is a phenomenon in movies and television where a black character takes umbridge at oppression in a way that is kind of played for a joke. There's like a there's like a black comics artist and in like chasing Amy that I feel like every time he is oppressed by one of the white characters, you know, he gets like militant about it and it's like, ah-ha-ha. Hold on, are you saying that a Kevin Smith movie might have some retrograde ideas about gender and race? I mean, that's probably the only retrograde idea in chasing Amy, but.

I'm making surprised Kevin Smith face now. Ha-ha-ha-ha. If we were on FaceTime, still you'd see it. But I also don't think that that like originated with Kevin Smith, I'm surprised Kevin Smith faced now. If we were on FaceTime, still you'd see it. But I also don't think that that originated with Kevin Smith. I'm not... No, yeah. I'm sorry. The product of its time to a great degree.

To a great degree, but also that's a thing that, especially in the 90s, there were a lot of characters like that in our popular media. Yeah, like, shows and movies got better at representation, but not any more than that. Right. Like, they're in it, but the type of people they're playing are shorthands like that.

Right, and this is not Ben Sisko, but it looks like Ben Sisko, and we have spent six seasons coming to really like this guy, and you know, think of him as the star of the show. So when he gets put in the ball-kicking machine at the beginning of this scenario in a way that is reminiscent of a real time in our past, you inherently react differently to it. Yeah. And I think that I imagine it would have been hard to pitch an episode like this in season

one. I think that if you had this exact script in season one, it would work just as well now, but in season one, I bet the studio wouldn't accept a script like this. I agree with you that this would never work for season one because no one would probably approve of something so ambitious. Yeah. But I think if they were to, it would fast track how much we like and respect and understand Ben Sisko as a character. Yeah. Like, it would be, it would be too much too soon.

But like, it would be amazing if they had. I think we just appreciate it more in season six because we know the man. Yeah. So much better. Yeah. I think that just appreciate it more in season six because we know the man. Yeah, so much better. Yeah, but yeah I think that's beautiful for him and hurt with him when he hurts in a way that I don't know if you're capable of in season one Like it's effective in a different way. I think if it comes in a different order. Right. So the arm and shimmerman shimmerman character Herbert Ross off really takes great and character Herbert Rossoff really takes great exception to the decision to leave the female writer and the African American writer out of the staff photo. But he's also just kind of a

complainer, like he's always kind of like finding things to take exception to around the office. Everyone really rolls their eyes at his virtue signaling. Would someone please shoot me and put me out of my misery? Oh, how long for a gun. I think the thing that counterbalances that character, so well, is the Douglas Papsd character, because they meet on such equal in opposing terms. They are often pitted against each other directly. There's never a scene where Herbert is without Douglas.

If Herbert Rossoff were given room in this episode to monologize about the many areas of the workplace that justice is not being done, I think you'd see the seams of an episode like this and you'd see the hand of the writers condescending, but because he's pitted against the pap's character directly every time, I think that's more subtle. Well, I also like that the rest of character like kind of is just a creature of the office. Like, we don't really see a lot of him in other contexts. So he's just there to like go to work

and you know, stand on his high horse. He took the jazz horse story too. We don't get the sense that he's a very good writer on the staff. Benny leaves work with his drawing to take it home and work on it. It gets caught in the wind. Oxford Shoes stamps down on it. When he goes down to pick it up, he looks up and meets the Mark Alamo and the Jeffrey Combs characters. These are two plain clothes cops.

This is one of the rare special effects this episode. Beno is reading that they attached this drawing to a piece of fishing line and a helium balloon and they said it up so that it would fall just so into frame. Wow. That's fun. That's great. The helium balloon I imagine to just give it some believable gustiness. Yeah, that's the word. God damn it. Jeffrey Combs took a massive hit on that helium balloon too and then delivers his lines as the NYPD detective with helium voice. Kind of took me out of the episode there. And the racist.

Seven, I'm chain smoking cigarettes and perpetrating oppression. These are the harassing cops who treat him as guilty until proven innocent. This is great for Mark Alamo because he's used to acting venomously and threateningly like he is. Yeah, and this is like a post-roddeny king world, but not a post-trave on Martin world. And the police are depicted as bad people. Right. And I'm not saying that all police are bad people, but I think that if you're a person of color, they are dangerous and always have been.

Well, I mean, very specifically, this is a 1950s world and a 1950s city, sort of relationship happening. So I think that context deans a little bit of what you can do. The contemporary social criticism. Right, that's what I think. Yeah, that's true. I think that maybe there's some self-flattery that like we've really made a lot of progress on that happening in the 90s. I don't know if that's a part of this. I'm not sure if I agree. Sorry, Vanny, I wish things were different, but they're not.

Cisco is able to wiggle out of this situation by diminishing the value of the thing that Mark Alamo has stepped on. It's not worth anything except to me. He gets his picture back and he goes on his way, mostly because the detectives are too busy to deal with fucking around with him. Yeah, with arresting him for no reason.

His next stop though is running into the character of his father who instead of being Joseph Sisco is a street preacher who is a prostalitizing the work of the prophet. A real like fancy accent on this street preacher. You know what to be honest, Ben, I didn't even notice the accent until you brought it up. He's got a very floral accent. And he kind of speaks somewhat in the terms of a Christian street preacher,

which is how he's styled. I mean, he's got like an Anglican or Catholic look to him, but he's got a little bit of Bedurin religion stuff laced in there too. Yeah, the terminology is that, but the visual is within the context. Yeah. Go now. Right for truth, that's in your heart. He gets home and we see the inside of Benny Russell's apartment. Seems like a pretty cool place. Goes into the ice box, grabbed himself a bottle of milk. He sits down to his typewriter and starts writing. He's got all the inspiration he needs.

He's got this depiction of Deep Space Nine. And so he gets to work and the very first line begins Captain Benjamin Sisko. It's like he's writing his own story. And then he looks outside and he sees Ben Sisko. It's like he's writing his own story. And then he looks outside. And he sees Ben Sisko in the reflection. What? What?

And then he picks up his typewriter and throws it through the window. Ah! Ah! Ah! I really like the paper stock in the closeups. Like when he's using the typewriter, like the paper is really like texturally in a really fun way.

I don't feel like any detail is missed in this episode, and that's one of them. Yeah, it's really great. We should mention that Avery Brooks directed this episode, while we're being so effusive with our praise and all of these touches. Yeah. A lot of what I read directs a lot of the responsibility for the episode at him, like as Avery Brooks is a reason for its quality and a lot of these areas, like more than what you would describe as the responsibility of a director.

He really took a heavy hand and a lot of the details too. Yeah. In terms of what we see on set, the sort of music that many Russell listens to, all the little touches. It's really cool. I wonder if the budget of this was radically different from an average deep space nine episode. That's the way it works on these seasons

with a lot of episodes, though you steal from episode Peter to pay episode Paul, right? Yeah. they'll use steel from episode Peter to pay episode Paul, right? Yeah, but like also there's not a lot of you know sequences where 2000 Gem Hedartics are taking shots at the station and there's not a lot of loaf in this episode. Yeah. But then there are like 400 period appropriate cars and costumes. Right, the next day Cisco arrives at my favorite place in the world, a diner, and it's where Cassie works.

Cassie who we're familiar with more is Cassidy Yates. And my favorite type of person who works at a diner is a server who calls me baby. Hey, baby. Have a seat. Did you just walk up there? Benny Russell is wearing a kufi hat in this scene. a server who calls me baby. Hey baby, have a seat. Benny Russell is wearing a kufi hat in this scene. And he wears it a couple more times in the episode.

And I wondered, I thought it was interesting, especially given the like Anglican and or Catholic looking priest that is a major recurring character in this episode, that Benny Russell would be wearing a hat that kind of styles him as being a practitioner of Islam. I wondered whether there was intentionality there to kind of like make it a little bit more ambiguous what the real world religious implications were. That suspicion is confirmed when Cassie serves him a pork chop and Benny Russell picks it up and like throws it across the diner

He does not take that kindly Very insulted. I mean he just Benny Russell. He throws the entire plate across the diner because he doesn't even let his skin touch the chop itself Yeah, very unclean. Yeah, Cassie Cassie is his lady friend and she's got designs on this coffee shop. Seems like a place we could get a great shake or a chocolate. And then have it slide across the bar into your hand. Willy Hawkins walks in and that's the baseball playing Michael Dorn character and he has an absolute harem with him. He is a baseball hero and he's very popular with this group of girls that that sits at a booth waiting for him.

Yeah. The thing about Willie Hawkins is that these girls aren't enough for him. He is sweet on Cassie. Yeah. He is a very flamboyant dude big red suit very a jaunty hat and Pretty shameless about kicking it to Cassie right in front of her bow Yeah, I thought one of the most interesting dynamics in this episode was how Relentless

Willie Hawkins is about putting the moves on Cassie right in front of Benny and how Benny is never combative or never even really seems threatened by it like Benny is very confident in his relationship with Cassie. I wonder if this is a show that is very aware of our Knowledge about back to the future because that happens in that movie like about back to the future because that happens in that movie. Like, Biff hits on Lorraine in front of the McFly's, constantly. And I almost wonder to what extent it's an understood

and accepted way to be in the 50s because of how woven into the fabric of popular culture that film is. I also think that like the way dating worked back then had like some different, like some of the regressive. Some of the rules were different, like dating somebody exclusively was not really. In the 50s, you were relied upon to make a move.

Right. And that means that if I had grown up in the 50s, I just would have grown up alone and then died. Yeah, same. Yeah, that would have become an old spencer. For some reason, Jimmy walks in and Jimmy is the character played by Sirok Lofton and he's going on about selling watches and this is the line of work that Benny tries to talk him out of.

Yeah, Jimmy is a bit of a no good dick, kind of getting into schemes, and he says that there's nothing he can get into that he can't get out of. In the same way that Benny doesn't have much affection for how Jimmy makes a buck, Jimmy feels the same way about Benny, sort of making fun of his writing. Nobody wants to read about white people on the moon. But the way Benny explains it is that he's writing about us and he gestures like with his hand. You and me for some reason, Jimmy.

I've got people on the moon. You can leave your gillscott hair and references behind. I just wrote a great story. You get the sense that something bad is gonna happen for some reason, Jimmy, at some point this episode, you know? Yeah, you really do Well back in the writer's room, Darlene Kursky is reading some of the drafts. She's the secretary, I don't know why, she's so involved in the writing and editing process,

and she is very blown away by the idea of trills. Oh, she's got a whirlwind of belly. She thinks it's very trill. They don't do that thing a lot in this episode where they have the actor talk against the type of character that they play on DS9. I think they don't overdo that. Yeah.

This is one of the few times where that's something that happens. Judicious is maybe the word you're looking for. Yeah. I was kind of wondering where Terry Farrell was gonna be in this episode because a lot of episode goes by before we see her in the 1950s context. But the whole staff is like, this is a fucking great story.

But Mr. Papsd is a little bit less enthusiastic about it because Benny has written a story about a black man being the captain in charge of a space station and that just isn't going to move copies of their magazine as far as he's concerned. Mr. Papsd really has an inflated sense of his magazine's importance or power because he goes right to 10 with... For all we know it could cause a race riot. Hold on, Mr. Paps Paps I think maybe 50 people reach your magazine like it's okay that's how I would have argued against him if I were Herbert Ross off yeah what the fuck Paps simmer down I mean this scene made me think like because they

talking about like mr. Stone isn't gonna let this see print and like I really thought that they were setting up like okay we are going to meet mr. Stone like, I really thought that they were setting up like, okay, we are going to meet Mr. Stone. And then I start going like, who is gonna be Mr. Stone? Who is this person that perhaps is so scared of that is like such a strident racist, but also publishes a sci-fi magazine?

Perhaps your blood has thinned in this entire name. I thought the same thing, but in the end, I love the idea that racism, and especially institutional racism, doesn't have an end boss. It's not a person. Yeah, I kind of wish Mr. Stone had maybe been like the parent company or something like that.

Just to like defuse it a little bit, not put it into one person, even if we don't meet that person. Yeah. But, I mean, they have a very interesting argument about like the idea that just, this is too big a pill to swallow for 1953 Americans. Speaking of things to swallow, Benny Russell goes back to the diner and he pulls his dick out and shows it to him. He's pretty heard about what happened at the office. And I mean, Cassie's great. Cassie

sues the sad Benny in this moment. And unfortunately for some reason, Jimmy is there to gloat. He is delighting in Benny's defeat. Not the only reason they'll ever let us in space is if they need someone to shine issues. Because he's resigned about the status of race relations in America, he even accepts it in a weird way. And for some reason, Jimmy says the N word. And I think we can't do this episode without talking about how bracing that moment was. This is a Star Trek episode. And that word is explosive.

And I was very surprised that it was in it, but I was also very grateful that it was in it because it hurts to hear it and it grabs you by the lapels and it shakes you. Ambiguity goes out the window when he says that, when he says as far as they are concerned we will always be dot dot dot and it's it's a moment where you pause and think about where things were in the 1950s where things are now where things were in the 1990s and maybe wonder like did that word

get beeped on TV or did that like because I don't think that a network television show drops an in-bomb anymore, you know? Ben, we famously don't do research on the show, but I really did try to figure out how much controversy there was around its use here, and I really couldn't find any conversation about it. I have a memory of listening to, I think it was an on the media episode about the transition that the N word made from something that you could say on TV to something that you couldn't and how it sort of became one of the words, one of the bad words and perspectives from all sides, like saying like giving it the power of being a word

that gets beeped is frating it with even more more negative energy that we maybe shouldn't. People saying like we should just get it out of the vocabulary entirely. People saying beeping it helps a public understand like how hurtful it is in a way that maybe they haven't totally understood up until now. And I don't remember exactly when that was, but I think that like this kind of happened like right toward the end of when it was something that you could put

into a primetime TV episode without having all of your commercial sponsors dump your show or whatever. The action of beeping it is something that anyone understands as shorthand for profanity. Right. A thing is profane when it is beeped. Yeah. It feels profane here. And I mean, you think a lot about like how much we have

changed our relationship as a society with terminology like that. Things are going to change. They have to. I'll keep telling youself that. It's really interesting in the context of the episode and its story that Cisco and for some reason Jimmy have this conversation and we don't sit in it.

There isn't that self-aware moment of, and then the music changes and then the whole thing. That doesn't happen. Willie Hawkins walks in immediately as warf, and Cisco falls out of his stool. We've changed the temperature of the scene almost immediately. Yeah. And I think a very intentional way. Yeah, and I think it's very interesting that it's not worth as Starfleet officer, but Worf as Klingon Warrior. Right.

You know, like they're talking about like being a writer, like imagining a better future for black people and then like the scariest blackest version of Wharf pops in, you know. Well, so that was a level of intention that I did not perceive. You think those things are related? I don't know, like I think that that the contrast is so big because you cut from Klee on Warrior Warf to Willie Hawkins in a tan suit and a Fedora. I feel like the contrast is bigger.

There's definitely a choice being made there. That warf is not in his TNG uniform. But many scenes in this episode, the Benny character is seeing both the human characters around him and their DS9 counterparts. So he flashes on this Michael Dorn Klingon character and then flashes out of that into the Willie Hawkins character. Yeah. Benny gets out of here pretty fast. He's clearly losing it a little bit, and rather than have his breakdown in public in the diner, he heads back to his apartment where,

on the way, he runs into the street preacher again. Right to the world, brother Benny! Right to the world! And that's exactly what he does when he's back at home and his typewriter. He writes a bunch more stories about Deep Space 9, despite the fact that he's been told that that's not something the magazine is willing to publish. So much so that he breaks his date with Cassie.

He wakes up to the radio and she's in his apartment and she says, you stood me up, Bob. and she says, you stood me up, Bub. This is maybe the most science fiction part of Star Trek history here, and it a character blows off a date, and she's not mad at him for it. She's like, so why did you make me sit there at that restaurant by myself? Oh, you were writing about a guy 400 years from now,

running around a space station with aliens. She should be so mad at her. This should be a relationship killer. I would be in big trouble for sure. Anyone would. Cassie's not a real character. Not realistic. That's what I'm saying.

We had Daniel Radford on the greatest discovery one time, and she said that like one of the criticism she had of Ben Sisko as a captain is that he's maybe like too perfect of a black father figure. Like the idea of having a black Star Trek captain, like A+. But the idea that he like has no flaws is maybe like, not to put words in her mouth, but like something that she was saying, like makes him slightly less interesting. Like she was saying that in the context of saying

that she loves Michael Burnham as a character for being black lead of a Star Trek show that is complicated and has like amazing strengths, but also weaknesses and things that she's trying to deal with. that is complicated and has amazing strengths, but also weaknesses and things that she's trying to deal with. And the like extremely positive resolution of a relationship conflict of, I blew off a date and fell asleep, and my girlfriend is.

Is this an example of that? Being like so much cooler about that than any human could ever be expected to be. Yeah. Kind of a nice illustration of that point, I think. Yeah, and Benny continues to hallucinate because because they make up, they have a little living room dance. Yeah. He has a hallucination again, and then he he staggers into the piano. Tell me, Tom, what's wrong? I'm sorry to see things from my story. The living room dance is one where there are kind of cutting back and forth between being Cassidy and Ben Sisko and Cassie and Benny and in Deep Space Nine and in his apartment and back in the apartment

after he's crashed into the piano, he feels like he is becoming Ben Sisko. Benny isn't feeling well and yet he goes into work anyway because the next day he's there and perhaps is treating him the way that Cassie should have. He's super pissed that he wrote six more stories about Ben Sisko. Yeah. What do you do, and Benny? Benny got a sign to write a novella, and instead wrote shorts in the Deep Space Nine of verse. You can't do that. And Paps calls him crazy. The Julian Bashir guy suggests like maybe self-publish, maybe do a little vanity press thing, and perhaps likes that idea and then they all kind of take cracks at how few people would

read it if he self-published. McLean has an interesting idea though, he's like if you just make it a dream that'll actually make it the science fiction that will make it not threatening to sensitive whites. Making it a dream, gots the story. Shut up, herb! I think it makes it more poignant. Because it will be that like one level removed. Benny kind of softens to this idea and considers it. Because he's like getting this story published is better than not getting this story published. So if it's like a slightly compromised version of it, he's

willing to go for it. Right. And then he's happy, right? Yeah. And then we cut to end credits and that's the end of the episode. In fact, he runs into for some reason, Jimmy on the street. And for some reason, Jimmy does not want to go celebrate with him. He's got some business to go do. But Cassie does, he comes into the diner and it's a put on your red dress level event because he's getting three cents a word, baby. Cassie's like, now you're going to show up this time, right? You're not going to do that thing that you did last night. He's like, I wrote all seven of the stories already.

Like, we're going out. I feel like I have two or three more stories that I could sit down and write pretty much any time, but I'm going to put that off. Because I'm going to go dancing with you. And so they do. And this is a great set piece, Ben, because we've seen different angles of this street before in the daytime mostly. But lighting it for night is so beautiful.

You know, they've wet down the sidewalks in the street. Yeah. The lights are all shimmery and we, when we like start on a crane shot and we see people up in their balconies and it's just really gorgeous. The fact that they have people like, you know, turning on lights and throwing open their blinds up in the buildings, the fact that there's like a traffic jam number of cars on the street, it's really like a perfect illusion of 1950s New York.

We don't see inside the party because I think that would be too expensive. We can't, we don't have money for another setup, but what we do is we get them leaving the party. Yeah. Which is just as good, I think. We see them interacting with each other and with the public, and every Brooks is a great singer, because he kind of sings to her on the sidewalk.

Yeah, nice voice on that guy. Yeah. They run into the preacher, and Benny is perfectly happy to run into this guy. Like he's had some very unsettling interactions with the preacher so far. But he doesn't view this as being haunted by him. Yeah. My story is getting published.

And the preacher says, This is only the beginning of your journey, not the ending. And then he says thinner and then touches him. And then the rest of the episode is really upsetting. He goes to the diner, but he doesn't eat. He doesn't eat, Ben. The preacher says, I speak with the voice of the prophets and then grabs Benny's ear and has blood on his hand.

And this is maybe like the one part of this experience that really felt profit experiencey. In some ways it felt like just get us into this 50 story like who cares what the explanation is. But it seems like the profits actually have something to tell Ben Sisko in this moment. But the profits never say anything directly. They never spell it out. And I love Cassie saying, like, did you? Did that mean anything to you? And he's like, uh, that really.

Yeah. Long, long, sweet, long, long. In here, buddy, stop. Hammer time. The buoyancy of a Benny Russell is popped a little bit because the last thing that the preacher says is something about hope and despair-walking arm and arm. This is foreshadowing something bad. And the foreshadowing doesn't take long to pay off because they hear gunshots from across the street. And for some reason, Jimmy's been shot. And Benny, in going to investigate, has to be restrained by the Bert Ryan and Kevin Mulcaney characters of DeCott and Wei-Yoon,

restrained to the extent that they are then beat him, and beat him badly in the middle of the street. They beat the shit out of him for bumping into them and claiming to know, for some reason, Jimmy. Yeah. And this is another thing I thought a lot about, like the, you know, like there has been this white America waking up to the scourge of police violence against unarmed black people in America that took social media and, you know, viral video to get you. This episode knew about it. Yeah, this is one of those scenes where we get a sequence that shows both the characters as detectives,

but also as Ducat and Wayoon. Yeah, the cuts are really excellent. I think it's interesting that we don't see Cisco slash Benny absorb this violence. I think the camera is trained very specifically don't see Cisco slash Benny absorb this violence. I think the camera is trained very, very specifically on the cops versus on the victim. Right, yeah, like we only get that in very, very wide shots,

but mostly the closeups are like, it's Mark Alamo throwing a punch at the lens of the camera. Right. I mean, we're put in Benny's POV in this scene. We are Benny as the viewer here. And then it's like weeks later, right? Like the next scene is him with a cane and still in casts. And Cassie is like helping him get his clothes on to go down to the office

for the first time, presumably since he was tuned up by these cops to go down to the office for the first time, presumably since he was tuned up by these cops to go get the issue of the magazine that his story is going to be in. It's a big day because the expectation is that this will be triumphant for him. Just no jumping up and down with excitement. We want you to hurt yourself. And this is, I think, why this episode is so affecting, because there's the sine wave of emotions here where you must feel the expectation of joy

to feel the depth of disappointment as pronounced as you get it here. Yeah. This is the roller coaster clacking to the top before we get the drop. His coworkers all feel terrible about what happened to him to their credit. They're not like, wow, provoking the cops. That was a bad choice or whatever.

But they're all, everybody's waiting for this issue to come back from the printer with papst. So they're just kind of unpacking the fact that Benny was beat to hell and how bad they feel about that. And when Paps gets back, he's got bad news. He's got a lot of bad news. There isn't any magazine this month anyway. The way that Paps puts it is part of what makes you hate him because you know that Papsd shares the opinion of his publisher, but he's too chicken shit to directly confront Benny about it. He very specifically doesn't even make eye contact with him in telling him that the magazine

has been pulped and all the reasons why. Mr. Stone didn't want to release that issue of the magazine with that story in it. Mr. Stone is such a strident racist that even, even if it was a dream being had by a downtrodden character, he didn't want that radical of an idea getting out there. This conversation doesn't go well because it goes in the place of not only is the magazine not being published but PAPS just gonna have to fire Benny also.

What? But you can't fire Benny Russell because Benny Russell fucking quits. To hell with you? Yeah, and he does that classic thing of fuck you, fuck you, and he just keeps pointing at paps, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, then he points at the rest of them. You're all pretty cool, but like if you would all storm out of here with me, that would make a big difference, but that's not what they do. I'm tired of being calm, calm Calm never got me a damn thing. This is the moment of the episode where in a way that seems like the highest degree of

difficulty, Avery Brooks as both director and actor does maybe the performance of the series. Yeah. And when you read about how the other actors experienced this moment around him, they were at the same time totally in admiration of Avery Brooks' work, but also the way they describe it is that Avery Brooks was so into this moment and his character that he couldn't turn it off. Yeah, I believe that to get to the peak that he gets to here. I mean, you're really feeling the feelings, you know?

And the feelings in the fifties and the nineties are different, but not that different, you know? And I think crucially in this scene, the other characters sympathize with him, but they don't walk out with him. Right, exactly because Benny collapses into their arms and creates the tableau at the end, but they don't walk out with him. Right, exactly, because Benny collapses into their arms and creates the tableau at the end, but they're not tending to him. No, when he gets carried out on the stretcher, they're still in the building. Yeah. And they're like, oh, what a shame that that happened at Benny, oh well, back to work, basically.

That's where all this comes from. Like, that's the criticism right there. Like, them standing on the steps, getting ready to go back into the office and finish their work day is about white America, standing by while shit like this happened in the 50s and in the 90s and et cetera and not speaking up. It's such an incredible moment in the episode, slash show, slash Avery Brooks's great career.

We talk about this a lot when we talk about the actors we love, but like this is part of the in-memorium reel that is shown for an actor as a scene like this. Yeah. It's amazing. It's fucking great. Inside the ambulance, Benny is wearing the uniform of Ben Sisko, and the preacher is inside. Brist easy brother Benny. You have walked in the path of the prophets.

It's kind of a blended costume though, right? He's still got the glasses, he's got the pinky ring and the wristwatch, but he's with the preacher. And then the ambulance goes to warp? And it seems dangerous. And then they cut to what New York City looks like after the ambulance goes to work and it is destroyed That's why you don't go to warp inside solar system spin. It's very dangerous very very dangerous But Ben Cisco wakes up in the infirmary on deep space 9 and Cassidy and Joe and for some reason Jake are there and

Turns out that this has only been a few minutes. He's been that he's been out for just a couple of minutes and then all the symptoms sort of fell away and But she was like, yeah, I didn't do anything. You seem better though You know, I think it's significant that moments ago Benny collapsed into the arms of the characters in the office building, but with the care that a co-worker would show, and in this composition, he's surrounded by all of his family who loves him, and it's a composition of all black characters, and I think that's significant and intentional here too. I thought that was a scene that was very striking. I don't know that there's another composition that does that on Star Trek. Like, four black characters all together in one shot

that felt significant to me. Yeah, the button on the episode is a hang between Ben and Joe back in the Cisco quarters talking about the conversation they had at the beginning of the episode, whether Ben Cisco is going to step back from his role as Captain of Deep Space Nine or whether he's gonna keep going and get tough with the going. The edibles really take hold here at this, during this conversation because

Ben Cisco starts talking a little crazy. What if it wasn't a dream? What if this life we're leading? All of this? You and me, everything? What if all of this is the illusion? Well... Joe's like, hey, I put a little... little too much in the jumble-eye at tonight. For all we know... at this very moment... somewhere far beyond all those distant stars... than you know so...

his streaming of us. Did you like the episode Adam? It's definitely a high point in the series, and I've got to admit, Ben, I hadn't seen the episode before, we watched it just now. It's one of the rare instances of a thing as good as its reputation and so often, you know, especially when you revisit television and movies from the late 90s, you know, so often those things are disappointing. But in no way was this that. I thought it told a difficult story effectively and interestingly and cru, without the hand of a writer that can so often make things feel like a lecture or condescension. Like this was a character-driven story about really ugly issues and worked so well because

it allowed the characters to tell the story the way that they did. I think the 50s are such an interesting decade for so many reasons, but you know, there was so much conflict in the country at the time between not just civil rights, but McCarthyism and communism. And I think it was just really well done. It feels like the sort of episode that could have been two episodes. It feels like the kernel of a story that could have made an entire series. It almost could have been like a quantum leap type series in a way. There's almost so much here, it's a miracle that it was able to be just a

single episode. And as we said before, one of the miraculous parts about it is just Avery Brooks doing the hyphenate work here of actor director. It's just really outstanding work. And I really respect the hell out of him for it. Your point about it being almost like it could be its own series really resonated with me because I wrote down in my notes that this feels like an episode that almost, it almost feels like the creative team behind it, Wishes, Deep Space Nine was not part of the Star Trek universe. What if we could tell this story in a way that was unconstrained by things Bill Schattener said in the 60s or whatever? Yeah.

I mean, I had read that they walked right up to the cliff of breaking the fourth wall and going maybe Benny Russell is the writer of Deep Space Nine, and what if that's the direction this series takes up to the point where they thought about bringing him back for the series finale and Rose budding the thing. Wow. One thing I also thought a lot about in watching it was, what if the time he had gone back to was the year of this episode's production? Right. Could you make the same statements about race then? Well, here's why not, though, is because I think once you do that, you begin to see the more direct line

between the problems that they're talking about and the problems of quote unquote today. It becomes more direct. It starts to feel like it's preachy. Yeah. Like I'm always gonna be here for an indictment of the 50s. And I think I imagine the preponderance of Star Trek fans are.

I mean, Star Trek fans love dressing up in costumes and they hate the 50s. Like those are the two things you know about Star Trek fans. Yeah, like the 50s as the Golden Era is like such a fucking garbage concept that I'm always excited to see torn down. But you know, like I think that this is also made in a time where Hollywood was making a lot of projects that flatter us the audience that a lot of these issues

are issues of the past. And yeah, I think it's a great episode. I think it's reputation is super well-earned and I really liked it. Yeah, me too. Good one You want to see if we have any priority on messages at him? Priority one message from Starfleet coming in on secured channel Need a supplement on top alone Stop a man Yes, extra for the interest alone could be enough to buy this ship

Ben our first priority one message is of a promotional nature. What? Message goes like this, make like Shimoda, in the safety and comfort of your own shame cave. Enjoy! A wrath of flon stout, holy functional pale ale, our award-winning utopia, planisha, red-ray ale, or one of our many other beers that aren't Star Trek references carefully calculated to keep us just out of the crosshairs of Big Rod. Oh, this is from our friends at Federation Brewing. Yeah. Oh, this is great.

Message continues with Free Bay Area Delivery and very reasonable shipping throughout California. You can ride this thing out and very reasonable shipping throughout California. You can ride this thing out, like it was a pleasure cruise on the hood. So go to federationbrewing.com, enter DeSoto at checkout for 10% off your order, Ben. Wow. We've been the recipients of some federation brewing beers before and they make a tasty beverage.

Yeah, I think somebody came to maybe our first ever Bay Area live show from Federation Brewing and introduced himself. And yeah, this is very, very, very exciting to be getting a P1 from them. This is a time where restaurant tours and breweries and all sorts of smaller businesses like these really need your help and support. So I would definitely encourage you to go to FederationBruing.com as well as any other local restaurants. Yeah. That you'll love and give them some love.

So 10% off your order from them, that's great. That's awesome. Thank you to Federation Brewing for that P1. We also have a personal priority on message here, Adam. It is from next level banana and it's to Ben and Adam and it goes like this. I've been stuck alone in a studio apartment for a month now. It sucks. But, I've been listening to the back catalog of this show at night and somehow that's made things suck a lot less.

Thank you for keeping me company. We got you Next level, banana. Yeah. This does suck. I personally have had a really lousy couple of days dealing with the lockdown. I'm very fortunate to be healthy still and it's very easy to focus on the things

that are not going great. And spending some time listening to something you enjoy is a great way to cope with it and always really flattered that this show can be that for people when we hear that from folks so thank you so much for getting a P1 and we're thinking about you at next level banana. Thanks for thinking about us everyone who goes to MaximumFund.org slash jumbo tron. Those priority one messages both of the personal and promotional nature are some of the crucial ways that help keep the show going.

So we thank you. We do indeed. Hey Ben. What's that Adam? Did you find yourself a drunk Shimoda? Drunk Shimoda? I'm a drunk Shimoda! I'm gonna give it to Willie the baseball player,

just for being so uncaring about the monogamous commitment of the lady he's trying to will. It's a real drunk Shimoda booth. Yeah. She's made her intentions very clear to you, Willie. Back the fuck up. You got four girls at that booth over there.

Go talk to them. Yeah, go get into that booth pile. Sounds pretty good. How about yourself? And did you find a drunks, your mo to? You know, we were really effusive in our praise for this episode, but I think one of the parts of it that is not as strong as the rest is that willy character. And I think part of it is that Michael Dorn was given a fairly thankless part of the episode.

Yeah. It doesn't look easy to do what he's doing. And I think part of it is that his character wasn't given a really clear purpose, other than to antagonize the Benny character in a way that many of the other characters were given such a purpose or a point. And so I guess I'm just going to double up on the Shimoda and give it to Willie, but for a little bit of a different reason. There's a lot of silliness with him for reasons that you stated, but also I think there's a bit less grounding to him in a way that a lot of the other characters get, so that's what I'll do with my Shimoda. Fair enough.

A greatest-gen live show is something you don't want to miss. Why? Well, it's a great opportunity to see me and Ben in person, but that's not all. FOD is from all over, gather at these shows to cosplay, to do pre and post show hangs, to make friends, and share their embarrassment. Hey, let's make a pretty great name for a tour. Let's do it! The Share Your Embarrassment Tour is coming in August 2023,

and we've got a bunch of dates in a lot of great places. Go to GreatestGenTour.com to get more info. That's GreatestGenTour.com for dates and ticketing information for the Share Your Embarrassment Tour. I'm Jordan Morris. And I'm Jesse Thorne. dates and ticketing information for the Share Your Embarrassment Tour. I'm Jordan Morris and I'm Jesse Thorne. On Jordan Jesse Go, we make pure, delightful nonsense. We were open awesome guests and bring them down to our level. We got stupid with Judy Greer. My friend Molly and I call it having the spaceweards. Pat Noswald. Could I get a Balrog burger and some air-gorn fries? Thank you.

And Kumail Nanjiani. I, come here on Nangeon. I've come back with cat toothbrushes, which is impossible to use. Come get stupider with us at MaximumFun.org. Look, your podcast apps are open, just pull it out. Give Jordan Jesse Goatry. Being smart is hard. Be dumb instead.

Whoa, raps, hey, hey, oh, I'm about to count you in line. These clouds are really freaking me out. I hate having to stand in line and Boy, what do I these giraffes do not smell good? No, they do not and they've such short Max, but I'm hearing we need to get on this all gotta get on the art. Yeah, it's about terrain. Got us about to destroy humanity Hey, oh, sorry, sorry, are you Noah? Yeah, I know we look like humans. but we're actually, we're podcasters. We are podcasters, so it's different. Have you heard of Ono Ross and Carrie? We investigate spirituality, claims of the paranormal, stuff like that.

And you have a boat and say the world's gonna end, so seem like something for us to check out. We would love to be on the boats. We came two by two. What do you think? Ono Ross and Carrie, available on MaximumFun.org. And how we are going to be watching next, do you want to head over to gach.bizslashgame and fire up the game of buttholes? The will of the prophets? Oh, I fired it up. Okay, well the next episode of the show is season six episode fourteen, one little ship. Hidden on a shrunken runabout, Dax, O'Brien and Bashir, our s are Cisco's only hope when the gem had our overtake the

defiant. That's great. I'm really looking forward to a Rick Moranis cameo here. That's cool. Who's doing the role this time, Ben? That would be you, my friend. You're required to learn as you play. Roll. Well Ben, we're currently on square 51, where a few short squares ahead is a quark spar episode. A couple of squares after that is looking at each other during the third. Ooh boy. Don't want to get that one. Do not want to get that.

We just got very angry at the whole idea of that. Yeah. Oh, got right in between them Ben. I have rolled a four. Tula! Did I win? Harvey. Which puts us on square 55. We are the meat and the quarks bar looking at each other during sandwich. Wow.

And a regular old episode love regular old episodes that I'm I also love people They go to maximumfund.org slash join and support The greatest generation on a monthly basis. We may In a max fund drive at this point. We may have already had it. It may be coming up. We still don't know as of this recording, but one thing we do know is that the originally scheduled max fund drive was back in March and anybody that has joined or upgraded their membership in the intervening time is going to be counted as part of the max fund drive. So that's good.

We heard that. Yeah, I read that on Twitter today. So we really appreciate the folks that do that because like a lot of people, this has been a scary time for us and we're wondering what our viability is going forward. Yeah, it's like an awkward time to ask for support, but the way I'm thinking about it is like, it's like the oxygen mask thing, right? Like, make sure you got your oxygen first.

Yeah. How about the people around you, if you've got something left, support the shows around you that you can afford to? Yeah, I think that's a really perfect metaphor. So we really appreciate it. And if it's not in the cards from a financial standpoint, like recommending the show to a friend or leaving a nice review

on Apple Podcasts or your podcast app is also greatly, greatly appreciated. So thanks to all of the friends of DeSoto who support the show in all of those different ways. Social Media is a great place to talk about the show and not everyone out there hates us. You can read the comments about the show on Twitter using the hashtag greatestgen.

Couple of our favorite people are out there doing the social media work on our behalf. One of those is Bill Tilly who posts custom comic trading cards every week for our expert Shimoto shows. You can find him at Bill Tilly 1973. We also got to thank our buddy Adam Ragusia, who makes all of the custom original music for the show. Of course, he based his work on that of Dirk Materia,

who made the original Picard song, which you're hearing under our voices right now. Adam Ragusia, since being our music guy went on to become a great big YouTube celebrity, he's got a very, very popular cooking channel and popular for good reason. It will teach you great recipes to cook at home. It's a YouTube channel that doesn't start with, hey guys! So you know it's professional. And with that we'll be back at you next time with another great

episode of Star Trek Deep Space 9 and an episode of the greatest generation deep space 9, which looks a little smaller than you remember. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound.

Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. and culture. Artist-owned? Audience-supported.