The Greatest Generation - Where Did All These Pencils Come From? (VOY S2E23)

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

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Priority 1 message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Hey friends of Disodo. Before today's episode, we just wanted to take a moment to talk about the historic labor actions being taken by writers and actors in the American Film and Television industry. If you're a fan of the work done by the people who make Star Trek, we hope you'll join us in standing in solidarity with the folks who actually bring these adventures to life. Over the past several years, the AMPTP, the organization that represents the American Film and Television Production Studios, have reduced the profit from movies and TV going to workers. And in so doing,

they've attempted to weaken the labor unions that represent those workers. They wouldn't even engage the unions on many issues in their negotiations. And so a strike was the only course of action to take. Adam, Wendy and I have been having a lot of internal discussions about how best to stand with the unions and we are continuing those conversations in a dynamic situation. We're doing our best to understand where the picket lines are in these digital spaces,

and we would never intentionally cross one. With the information we have, we feel like we can do more good talking about and supporting the strike and continuing our show as planned. We'll keep you informed about what all this means for greatest trek specifically. Today we're making a contribution to the Entertainment Community Fund. This fund exists to help all the people whose livelihoods have been put on hold because the AMPTP refuses to negotiate

in good faith with the unions. It provides financial support for writers, actors, and all the thousands of laborers who make the shows that we talk about here and without whom we wouldn't have Star Trek to cast pot about. Those folks are all out of work because billionaires, company shareholders, and the executives of these companies don't want to compromise on the length of their yachts. We hope you'll join us in supporting entertainment workers in a challenging time, especially after they've already endured several years of challenges brought on by the pandemic

and season two of Star Trek Picard. We've set up a page where you can also contribute. It's at friendsofdecotoforlabor.com. That's friendsofdececoto for Labor.com. That's FriendsOfDecoto for Labor.com. Link in the episode description. Okay, now let's get on with the show. Here's to the finest crew in Starfleet. Engage! Watch your bad shot. Hello.S. Board of Directors Captain, Captain, Bringing one of the U.S. Board of Directors

Captain, Captain, Bringing one of the Welcome to the Greatest Generation! It's a Star Trek podcast by a couple of guys just a little bit embarrassed to have a Star Trek podcast. I kind of billmarked that one, didn't I? Oh no! I'm Adam Pryanaka.

And joining us is a panel of anti-vaxxers and right-wing freaks. I've been Harrison. Hey, you're on the panel today, Ben. Ah, fuck! Yeah, you fucked up. Um, yeah, but Sarah Silverman will be joining us after the panel, so. Oh, I'll stick around for that. Yeah, she's always great. She's good in everything. Even on Bill Mar. Sarah Silverman will be joining us after the panel. Well, I'll stick around for that.

She's always great. She's good in everything, even on Bill Mar. Yeah, I understand she's in Voyager storyline here in a couple of seasons. Oh, yeah. Some of the things like that. Yeah. It's gonna be great.

Yeah, it was Halloween yesterday, Ben. Oh, yeah. It sure was, Adam. I'm not sure if you remember. I mean, the memories are still with me. Trasured memories. What did you dress up as? I, you know, I've never, ever since I stopped being a kid, I've had a real hard time

getting it up for dressing up. And I feel bad about it. I'm not proud of that fact. It's funny what a like four-smultiplier it is to have a latent amount of social anxiety about feeling like just silly and public generally. And then to know for certain that you're leaning into the silly, this is the thing I've always admired about people

who come to our shows dressed up, like in cosplay. I admire it more than I would say that I think a normal person would because I don't have that in me to do. It's so incredible every time I encounter it. When I was making the end gadget show, we went to a Hollywood costume shop

and the guy that ran it was telling us about like the costume parties he goes to every Halloween with the Hollywood like special effects makeup and costume community. I mean, I think that's maybe the barrier for me is like I know if I applied my own makeup and made my own costume, or even bought the costume that I could afford. It would be the shitty version. Right. And nothing to be proud of.

I can't. And like, as people that like really admire it when it's executed at such a high level, and like, who look for it, I feel like, you know, and that's the thing that I think is so exciting about some of the cosplay we've seen at our shows, especially like we had a person dressed up as a borg's one time. I think that was in Minneapolis, I wanna say. I don't know how it chooses it, but my phone has been choosing that photo a lot.

Like for the memories. Like, hey, you remember how cool this was? I see it all the time. Send it to Bill Tilly so that it can be on the Instagram when this episode goes up. I will do that, yeah. Cause that costume was absolutely amazing. And we were such dummies.

We were like arms, you know, arm and arm, like grinning ear to ear. And they were like, don't smile. I'm a bork. You know, that's the whole vibe I'm trying to project here. They said, Ben and Adam, not good at K-Fab. Yeah, but we have some evo-dies that are great at cosplay. And I feel like it's like that.

Like if I was going to do it, I would want to be doing it at such a high level that like I can't get it up to even start Yeah, it's really true I mean the episode we've got today, Ben. I feel like has so many Costumes it's really a costume designer's dream right here. It's a feast for the eyes costume-wise. Yeah I had an idea that we might look at the Bible verse about Ensign Kim for this episode, because he plays a fairly central role in this episode. Before I enter into the nightmare of this episode,

you want to get sanctified? The scripture may help me as I walk through the valley of the shadow of Michael McKean. The power of Brandon Braga compels you. It's good to see you all in church. It's cool to the Bible. That's the way God wants it. I don't know why, dude.

These questions is a little blind-fake too much to ask. I know. I know. I know. I know. Adam, I am cracking into our Star Trek Voyager showbible here. Lipping past character after character to get to Harry Kim. This is on page 11. Harry Kim, the ops slash communication officer, is a human of Asian descent, and the happiest

day of his life was when he reported to duty a bored voyager. He's the only child of a couple which had tried for years to conceive. He was their great pride, their golden child. He grew up with love, warmth, and support, and an assumption that he would excel at whatever he chose more than whatever he chose, more than anything he wanted to fulfill that expectation, to repay his parents for their undying devotion to him. After Voyager was swept to the far reaches of the galaxy, when he realized he would never

see his parents again and they would believe him dead, his greatest regret was for the pain they would feel. But if Harry was raised with love and care, he was also raised in a somewhat sheltered way. So Harry has some growing up to do. Having never experienced adversity, he has fewer of the tools for coping than some of the others. And he tries to keep such thoughts from servicing. He's scared.

He's in over his head on this mission. Thought he'd begun a month and then go home to share his adventures with his folks, but what has happened is unthinkable and often he has the sensation that it's just a bad dream. He goes about his duties with diligence. It's comforting somehow to have a job to do but more than anything else Harry is suffering. The others know this and in their varying ways try to give the young man a helping hand. Tom Parris creates a hangout for the crew, a in their varying ways try to give the young man a helping hand. Tom Pairs creates a hangout for the crew, a billiards hall, largely to help a swage Harry's loneliness.

For while their methods of handling him range from Chicoote's stern insistence on duty to Janeway's comforting maternal presence, among their crew there's not one who doesn't like Harry Kint. Well, a piece of the Voyager with you Ben. present among their crew there's not one who doesn't like Harry Kim. Well a piece of the Voyager with you Ben. And also with you Adam, so end of the reading. It's interesting how many similarities that there are between Kim and the boy. Wesley the boy. The boy.

Young Wesley Crusher. My son. And yet, the Karen feeding of a Harry Kim comes across so differently than it ever did for Wesley, you know? Yeah. Well, Wesley was no stranger to a death-defying adventure. Right, and Harry Kim is like someone who accidentally stowed away on the landing boat on D-Day, you know? We're going to France, cool. Yeah.

I've heard great things. I've always wanted to see Paris. Yeah, there is that vibe to him. Like it feels war adjacent. Yeah. In terms of like a thing that is going to grow him up. Yeah, I think it's interesting that that is clearly written before them writing the background that he has a girlfriend back at home.

Yeah. Because it sort of implies that he's like a stay-at-home adult. Like when he's not on a starfleet ship, he lives with mom and dad. And that's that, like saw it with his life. He had a swanky pad in downtown Mission District in San Francisco and he lived with a beautiful girlfriend. Yeah, cool as hell. He was crushing it.

He was a little bit more grown up than that sort of implies. I wonder if that is Garrett Wong's influence on the character. You know? I wish I had the chance to know that Harry Kim a little better. Go get a giant burrito with Harry Kim. Yeah, he seems, you know, based on the reading, uniquely unable to grasp the situation of today's episode, I would say, as the child of the crew. Yeah. And the person who is most afraid

on the crew specifically. Yeah, so the idea of dropping him into a terror ride is kind of interesting on the page. Let's see if it works in practice, Ben. Yeah. As we get into Star Trek Voyager, season two, episode 23, the thaw. Reaver course.

Unless you've got something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around. Oh, darn. Paris is an incredibly generous friend for hanging out in Kim's apartment, listening to him practice clarinet. The musicians of my life are not open with their invitations to come and hang out and listen to us practice.

It's not usually a thing that they want witness. Yeah, and it's definitely something that the neighbors don't want to witness. Obviously, Ensign Bantart doesn't appreciate music. I was kind of shocked that Paris's description of the Voyager as a ship of lore. Yeah, I guess it was designed to go toe-to-toe with Mayquise, right? Mayquise? Yes, so. This isn't one of those D-class ships where you're doing concertos every week, Harry Kim.

Right, yeah. We're here to shoot torpedoes and ask questions later. Yeah. They didn't spend as much time putting sound isolation materials into the walls. Though Kim does have a noise-deadening couch that Paris is sitting on. I feel like I've seen this version of the lazy boy L-shaped sectional couch version of the lazy boy L-shaped sectional couch a hundred times in my life and basements around the world. Right, yeah, or like in the control room side of a recording studio, I feel like the the posse is always hanging out on that couch while the engineer is at the big board and the artist is in the in the booth. The green rooms that we've happened to spend some time in on occasion.

Yeah. Yeah. When we've been lucky enough to tour. Kim mentions that he wants to get good at blowing the horn because he's got a duet coming up with Susan Nicoletti. Lieutenant Nicoletti, the one I've been chasing for six months. Another lady on the ship that Kim got to first. I mean, are the Delaney sisters over now?

Oh yeah, nobody talks to that many more. God, that's, I mean, I guess that means that paracet's options for relationships. It's not just all eggs in one basket, right? It's pretty brutal. I mean, like, he made Sandreens for Harry Kim, and this is how Harry Kim repays him, by getting with Lieutenant Nicoletti. Cold hands, cold heart? Not when she plays the oboe.

Yeah, what's weird about this scene is that it seems to come as a surprise to them both, that Kim has succeeded in his seduction of Susan Nicoletti, and Paris did not know that this was happening. I thought they were better friends than this. Kim has succeeded in his seduction of Susan Nicoletti, and Paris did not know that this was happening. I thought they were better friends than this. I did too. We don't get a ton of time to deal with this though, because they get called up to the bridge

where it is new planet who does. And the planet they are pulling up to has satellites in orbit, but they aren't working and they get it up on the view screen and it does not look good. It's been wiped out by a solar flare. Neelix is on the bridge and he's like that psychic that isn't very good at being a TV psychic. So he's like getting information and passing it on as a discovery of his own.

I like that moment. That's what's called a cold read, Adam. Yeah, they scan the surface, no life signs, but they need to go deeper. This is kind of an inception type of situation. Yeah, if the planet stopped orbiting and fell, you'd know you weren't in a dream. And they get hailed from the surface as they start scanning a familiar face pops up on screen at him. It's Thomas Copacci.

Yeah, it's Kirin Erice's dad. And the guy that sells the Western wear in no country for old men. My favorite role of his was that one. Oh man, so good. How are those Laramie Street? Yeah. You got socks. We only carry white. That's all I wear. Do you get many customers who come in here? That way are going to close. It was unusual. I think we did every line he had in that movie. I think we remembered all the type of co-patchies lines.

So this is one of those voicemails from Beyond the Grave saying basically like, yeah, our planet got fucked up. If you found this like, we're asleep, just leave us be. They get the sense that everyone's dead from a solar flare, but like science fiction weapons we've heard of before, all the tech remained. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is gonna be great.

Let's scrape that tech off of this planet, and take it, and get the hell out of here. Nobody's here watching the store, just grab it. They're massively inconvenienced by this hail, because it makes clear that they can't just take this stuff that people are still alive below the crust. Yeah. And that takes us into the theme song. They aren't dead Adam, they're inceptioning.

These people have been in a shared dream down there and it is in pretty short order that the Voyager has beamed up all of the survivors of this in like a cryostasis, but all the cryo chambers are plugged into each other. Can I make a suggestion for the future? I know this technology is being developed, right? It would have to be. Cryogenic technology that preserves a body, you know, to shoot into space, I mean, I know people are shooting ropes into containers and cryogenically freezing their ropes. Uh, yeah.

Why do we make some warm cryo, you know? Like why not to spend a body in a tube that you don't have to wipe the condensation from? Like a cryosu-veed. Yeah, like it would really save the step of wiping the glass because then you could just see through the glass. This cryo implies cold, I guess. So it would be sous-veed stasis.

That's what I'm looking for. That's what I'm suggesting. Yeah, I mean, because every time you get a scene like this, you gotta wipe that glass. Yeah. It'd be a lot cleaner if they weren't cold, but they are. It's just too bad. I don't need to set auto-destruct because the sale of my pinkers has this white glass.

So satisfied. Now that I've wiped the glass clear of the condensation, I'm going to take a paint roller and roll it up the side of the cryo chamber. There appears to be a dead in one of them. And then the messenger himself in another, the guy they saw in the FaceTime. Yeah. And the pods are oriented like kind of a bloom and onion. They've got, it's like circular around this kind of computer core in the middle.

Yeah. And what we learn after Kim starts hitting buttons, it's not just that they're being kept alive by the tech. There's also an interconnectedness about their situation. Their bodies and their minds are plugged into the computer, but also each other. Yeah. And it appears as though they're playing

some sort of video game in there together. Yeah, so this is a bit puzzling, and they have a McLaughlin group to talk about it. Is your one? And one big part of the mystery is that this was supposed to be over a while ago. The system is designed in a way where the people inside were supposed to be able to assess when the planet was ready for them to wake back up and trigger their own thought, ready for them to wake back up and trigger their own thaw, which they didn't do when the biosphere was ready, and the Voyager crew are kind of curious about why, and also why

two of them passed away, because it just doesn't make a lot of sense. And the doc barges into this McLaughlin group on TV to tell them that they were scared to death. Yeah, that's how they died. Like they watched the ring video. And they were just found in a closet. That was the scariest find in the ring video I thought. The closet girl. Maybe they like it in there. I don't think so. The doc advances a theory. In the shared simulation, they are making a sort of simulated,

not human, because the very term is racist, but human centipede like creature. And these two were in the back. They also can't just like unplug everybody because it will break their brains. And so they pull the crispy dead bodies out of the two tubes that have, have, have deads in them. And they load Harry and BLT in. Yeah. As a sort of mental away team. I'd want to be pretty clear about how well the inside of that tube had been cleaned and sanitized before I hopped in because the suggestion is that these people were dead for many years inside there.

Yeah. Like, you know, sometimes something will have spoiled in a fridge and no matter how well you clean it, like you can take the drawers out. Hose them out in the backyard with soap and stuff, like really get in there. Sometimes it takes a while. For that, that little lettuce smell to pass. Yeah. I mean, fortunately, I guess they were frozen,

so they must not have been rotting. Yeah. But why were they all like charred looking? That's what I'm saying. It's that they look like a pile of raisins. Yeah. But why were they all like, charred looking? That's what I'm saying. It's that they look like a pile of raisins. Yeah. They look like the inside of a whiskey agent barrel. What the hell?

Yeah. Maybe that's how they make the chambers. They make them like barrels like, like, coopers would. They just fry the inside with a blowtorch. Maybe that's how they cleaned the tubes out also. I mean, that would get it nice and clean. The slurry has a nice smoky flavor. Oh, and Kim and BLT are gonna come out all oaky and smooth.

Go ahead and get the little air. So the plan is to go into the program and see what's what. And there are like, safeties in place that are suggested that will keep them safe, right? Five minute limit seems reasonable. Yeah. And also like we can pull you out whenever. So don't worry about it.

Nothing bad is gonna happen. I'm just going to apply these metal pucks to your forehead. Head on, apply directly to the forehead. Close the door and send you on your way. It feels like this is Kim and BLT's first pairing since the pilot episode for anything, doesn't it? It happened so fast I wasn't really following like what the logic was behind them being the two

to go on the adventure. Aside from Kim having kind of been there to like do the initial tricordering. Yeah. But for whatever reason they are the two that get picked and they are sent in and the camera pulls back to reveal a move-along home style set. O'Lummery! Inside this shared dream scape. It's swinging so hard at the ball here that Star Trek occasionally does. Yeah. It made me nervous.

It is really a combination of move along home and Lwaxana's mud pit spa. Yeah. In a way that any Star Trek viewer that has seen those episodes is immediately on edge and, you know, the episode doesn't do a lot to diswade your fear initially. But maybe that's intentional. What made me feel like I was in good hands is the introduction of Michael McKeon's clown. Yeah. Because that actor has a way about him that just makes me believe.

And his clown face betrays a sinister intent that I totally read as real. We're all friends here. I hate that clown. He is really freaky. And I'm like strapping in, I'm like, okay, we are in the episode that every Star Trek series seems to insist upon having. And we're just going to have to deal with that fact, but at least Michael McKeein is

here to give some interesting performances. He's our bad episode Sherpa here, and I feel like we're better for it. Yeah, we get some interesting characters. There's a little person who came in and asked with. There's a kind of Dia Demuertos character that's actually played by the guy that played Mr. Homme. That we never see his face because he's always in, in mask.

And I think that like this episode is very smart that we never see his face because he's always in in mask and I think that like this episode is very smart about the way it's directed because I think they had you know eight circus performers or something and the cuts break continuity, but you know like you see the same performer like in a shot and a reverse shot, but it always feels like it is in service of making you feel more ill at ease and making the environment more confusing and more of a hall of mirrors. Yeah, you know how you can lens a thing for optimal portraiture look. Yeah. There's also like kind of a warped feeling to the compositions here throughout. Like people are closer to the camera than they ordinarily would,

and people are arranged in such a way that feels very unnatural. The whole thing mixes together nicely in a way that just makes you feel uneasy. And like the way characters enter and exit frames, like Michael McKeein is always like standing up into frame and like the camera cuts to across the room and he's standing over there and stuff.

It's a very original series color palette too in a way that move along home wasn't quite. I feel like all of the colors in the circus scene setup feel like they are those primary TOS uniform colors or wall texture colors or whatever. I don't know if that was an intentional point to, but it sure felt that way in kind of a visual throwback. It did. And the light is hard to in that same way, right? Yeah, absolutely. There's sort of push toward the center of this space, which contains a hot pink gu guillotine which is demonstrated to be very effective on a log and it's looking like they're about to be subjected to the guillotine treatment and the starts to turn into like a physical altercation a lot of ax handles getting thrown by

BLT but these clown freaks seem to be invulnerable. Yeah, and that's scary, right? Because we see it all the time, you drop an axe handle and someone, they're gonna fall. That's it. Not the case here. Yeah, so they're loading Harry Kim into the Gia team. Harry!

Harry! And it looks like it's just about over for him when the other occupants of this shared experience walk in. These are the aliens that were in spaces. Right, and Viorsa is the lead guy, the Thomas Capacci guy, explains to the clown that if you kill Kim, it's only going to bring more people and the more people that come, the greater the chance that someone's going to turn off the program and kill you. And that inspires Harry Kim to say the exeblation part out loud. He sort of takes the explanation baton and runs with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. After it's clear he's not going to die here.

The theory that Harry Kim advances is that this clown is some kind of computer virus that infected the system. And boy, if it's possible for there to be a clown virus, that really makes the coronavirus seem like a cakewalk. This is the moment where Kim hits triangle to set up camp and save the game before maybe turning it off and going to bed for the night. But when that option is presented, they're stopped by the clown. The clown makes it very clear that by leaving he will be forced to murder one of the remaining three

scientists who were in stasis. Yeah, that is not an acceptable outcome for Harry and BLT. There's now a control panel on the wall and the clown really wants them to make it go away. He doesn't like the intrusion of it. So he's got to sit there and like make stringy bird meat over and over again. Which is just so tedious. Like you've got all of this bare fat. Like how many sticks of dynamite can you possibly sit there and make? You just sit there for like 10 minutes. Yeah. And then you take it to town and try and sell it and it's just not really worth anything. Yeah, it's worthless Fucking complete waste of time, but none of this is real of course. It's real. It's real is a nightmare back in the cargo bay they've kind of detected the stress

that BLT and Kimmer under and they're confused why they didn't just take the exit when it was presented to them and confused why they didn't just take the exit when it was presented to them. And in the program, the clown knows where the tax documents are. He makes it clear that he knows what's inside their minds. I mean, this is the main threat, right? This isn't just a trap that if only BLT and Kim can come up with a plan to get out of it, like they'll be able to flee. This is almost like lecutus of Borg. All of their ideas have been assimilated into the clown.

He knows about Kim's girlfriend back home. He knows about BLT's parents. He could draw the Delaney sisters from memory. It's very unfair. He can really get under their skin in a way that they can't get under his. But they're able to persuade him, like, send one of us back to take your demands to the captain, because all she is going

to do is figure out a way to turn you off unless you make contact with her. Perfect black, make it yourself. I'm trying to help you see this as an opportunity to grow. Make it yourself. Back in the cargo bay, Paris is like, God, what am I going to do now without Harry Kim? I'll never be able to seduce Susan Nicoletti in Janeway's like, well, in order to seduce Susan Nicoletti,

you'll have to throw Harry Kim's book away. And that is now your clarinet. It's not that simple. What is interesting about this scene is that on the one hand, we are told that the clown knows your thoughts and fears. But on the other hand, the clown is off talking to his own people, leaving our people alone

to like huddle up and have a thing. How does that work? And a tier we're explained that there is a delay in the system, right? Like, like Kim and BLT and this crew can talk about shit, but the clown isn't going to know it for several minutes later because that is the time it takes for the computers to sort of process your thoughts and give those thoughts to the clown. The clown is not omniscient and there is a slight advantage in there. So he comes back and he explains to them that BLT is going to be the one that is sent back up into the conscious world.

And if he doesn't like the way things go, he will kill Harry Kim and perhaps more hostages. I like how little of a fight BLT puts up here for you the one that gets that back. It's smart. She's no dummy. The clown's demand is to go on existing and they have a McLaughlin group to discuss this. Issue two. This is one of those harshly lit McLaughlin groups

where we kind of get a visual language of fear here as they talk about fear. Right. Like a lot of hard spot lit faces, a lot of hard shadows. Yeah, and there is the delay in processing, but there's also the delay in getting somebody out of this kind of

stasis. The doctor is explaining that it'll take 10 minutes at the quickest to wake somebody up, and the clown would be wise to what was going on way ahead of that being complete and could kill everybody, you know. It's like the matrix. It's not real, but your mind makes it real. Why didn't they just say it like that? Like a late 20th century motion picture, Captain.

The computer that runs this program needs a brain to keep going. And that's what's preventing them from just pulling everyone out and replacing it with some sort of computer brain replacement. They figure out fairly quickly that like no artificial replacement will be sufficient to make the clown happy. How do they communicate with the clown without putting another life in danger though? That's the essential question from this scene. Because we can't just keep sticking people in there that the clown will take us hostages.

How do we do that thing with the megaphone where we're yelling up at the top of the building, you know? Yeah, we gotta get a negotiator on the phone and we need to keep that person out of harm's way. So sending BLT back in is not really an option. There's coffee in this artichish world of theirs. Back in the program, the Orsa has lost hope.

I mean, in it's clear that he lost hope a long time ago, he's just sharing that loss of hope with a group in the scene, and he is bumming the whole group out. Yeah, one thing I thought a lot about in this episode was there is something so annoying about the environment that they created in this episode. And when you think about the fact that these people have been living in it for almost 20 years, the nightmare-ness of that is really heavy actually. Yeah, I really like Thomas Kappachi's performance as sort of like a little bit numb to the thing, numb if not totally depressed by his circumstances.

But I was surprised by the other two scientists there not demonstrating other versions of how one might be interacting with their reality. Like I've got to believe one of them would want to go into the guillotine, you know? Right. And this fucking thing, this is horrible. Survival instinct is a powerful thing. And the clown catches Harry thinking about breaking out, which is something that the other three have trained themselves not to do,

because whenever they think about it, the clown will subject them to even more terror. Whenever they think of busting out, they instead think about baseball. And then they can last a lot longer in the program. Yeah. Baharri has not trained his mind yet. And so he is subjected to some new terrors by the clown.

The first is that the clown makes him old. And this is really, really good old man makeup that they put him in. I was really impressed given how many times Star Trek has gone for old person makeup on a young character and missed. This is not aging Catherine Polasky episode at all. This is really great. It's really great and like it's on screen for a minute and maybe that's why it works so well is that it's It's used so sparrowingly that you don't see the cracks in it But it was I was so impressed like this was this looked better than

The guy that they did old man makeup on in inception Yeah, which was like awesome which had like way more resources to throw at this problem and then Adam They make Harry Kim look like a baby, and this makeup is even more impressive. He really looks like a baby. Garrett Wong is such a good actor. Garrett Wong will make you believe. That he's a baby.

And he did. This is the sort of thing they teach in really high-level acting classes. Yeah. I got to go to that Skurball Center exhibit of old Star Trek stuff, lots of screen-used costumes in there, seeing the baby costume. Baby Starfleet uniform would have been really, really fun. Yeah, you know if someone took that home.

That's someone's baby Halloween costume. Yeah, seriously. This moment comes to a climax where it seems as though Kim is gonna be tortured by the clown. Yeah, I mean, he's certainly being mentally tortured here. He's come to understand that the clown is the personification of the fear of these people in the simulation and he's doing a lot of box-breathing.

Yeah, he's trying to use mantras and platitudes to talk himself out of being afraid, but this is fucking scary. We've talked about it over the years, how you want to go full-brando, to really cement yourself and the mount star trek actor more. The very same scene, the Garrett Wong acts as old, acts as baby. He fully evacuates on this table before the doc shows up in just one of the great brave acting choices in Star Trek. It's the only way to sell this emotion and he commits. Really one of the greats. Get it wrong. The clown is bringing some sort of blade down on him. And we are saved at the last possible minute.

Oh! Excuse me. You're not holding that properly. Dr. Schmolless to the rescue, to act as a Captain Janeways envoy into the dream world. And this is, this really puts the clown back on his heel because he was not expecting to meet somebody whose mind he could not read. Doc is such a great choice for this moment. He's such a great negotiator because he can't be flapped.

He's unflappable, literally. And I thought it was a great choice also in the script not to go into too much techno babble about how they're doing this. The rules are like a little bit arbitrary in this episode, but like you don't really care about them because that's not really what it's about. I was really surprised at the idea of, we need a great negotiator for this,

someone who's not gonna fold under the pressure from the clown. And then Doc shows up, great choice. And his negotiating tactic is, we'll give you everything if you let the hostages go. And then the clown turns it down. I was shocked by this. I was shocked by both sides of the negotiation. Yeah. It would have been very smart for fear the clown to accept this this first offer it was first offer best offer and what they Like what they came up with is basically the Moriarty thing like we'll come up with a way to keep your simulation going despite the fact that you're not Going to have these minds to run it on anymore

the clown Anymore. The clown assumes that Janeway will not go so far as to turn off the program because it would kill Ensign Kim and everyone else. But what the clown does not know is how often Janeway threatens to destroy the ship. And so while the clown would correctly assume that Janeway would trade Kim's life for the ability to shut off this awful program, he couldn't possibly guess that she's willing to destroy the entire ship to do it. Yeah, so this is a bit of an impasse and the doctor comes back out of the simulation and into 6-B to talk to the captain about what is going on. And the captain is pretty quick to say,

like, yes, indeed, I will kill Harry if that's what we have to do. You don't know how badly I want to not just kill Harry, but all of us on the ship. Yeah. Ship included. I already disabled the part of the self-destruct system that would have to have Chico Te agree with me.

I got tickets that knock them, get them all better largements here. A greatest gen live show is something you don't want to miss. Why? Well, it's a great opportunity to see me and Ben in person, but that's not all. FODs from all over gather at these shows to cosplay, to do pre and post show hangs, to make friends, and share their embarrassment. Hey, let's make a pretty great name for a tour. Let's do it.

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Just pull it out. Give Jordan Jesse Goatry. Being smart is hard. Be dumb instead. All right. Hey, rats, hey, hey, I'm about to count you in line. These clouds are really freaking me out. I hate having to stand in line. And boy, what do I? These giraffes do not smell good.

No, they do not, and they've such short nacks. But I'm hearing we need to get on this arc. Gotta get on the arc. It is about to rain about a story of humanity. Hey, oh, sorry, sorry, are you Noah? Yeah, I know we look like humans, but we're actually, we're podcasters. We are podcasters, so it's different. Have you heard of Ono Ross and Carrie?

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Are you selling ice to? Gold. There's a weird bit of dialogue that happened in the previous scene, having to do with op-tronic pathways. It's something that Viores has said. Yeah. And it doesn't make any sense to anyone post gaming the negotiation that happened.

And as they bat it around the table, BLT correctly assumes that this is sort of like a code. It's a little bit of subterfuge that Viorsa is flushed down the pipe. Yeah, and what it gets them onto is the idea of turning off, not the minds, but the simulation that the minds are in. And this would be something that they would have to do pretty quickly in order to keep the clown from noticing

what's going on, but in talking to the doctor, the clown was also distracted from the other people. So they think maybe they can go in and sort of ledger domain the clown so that the clown is not paying attention to the fact that BLT is dismantling the system piece by piece. And this is a very interesting bit of tell and show here. Yeah.

Because the suggestion of removing the program from the brains and not the brains from the program gives us a scene where we're back with the clown. And stuff is just disappearing off of walls and furniture's leaving the room. Yeah. Because the clown is so focused on talking to the doc after he shows up again. The doc is coming with an offer of a cloaking device,

which would, you know, I guess the, like the clown doesn't have to worry about these people aging out because they're in stasis, I guess. So he just wants to like continue to exist anyway where he doesn't get messed with by the next chip that comes along. Right. And interruption is a threat because any new person coming onto the scene may have the power to turn off the program. Yeah. And I'd like to know how naive the clown was. Like, the clown is scary and there are areas in which the clown is not naive at all.

But in the cloaking device is a concept that is entirely new to him. So that has to be explained in order to seem like a tempting option for him. The clown notices that stuff is disappearing from the scene and becomes very angry in this moment. And we get a lot of cross-cutting starting now between the mob, taking Viorsa to the guillotine, and BLT being halfway through the job of removing stuff from the program. And then Fiorsa trying to escape the mob, but he can't stop them.

If only the electronic pathway she turned off first was the guillotine one. I know, right? BLT's gotta be feeling pretty bad about this. She is trying to shimote the system, but she does not shimote a fast enough. Yeah. If Yorsa gets chopped, they put it all back. They, they, they realized that this is not the way that they are going to get

out of this situation. Yeah, it's that moment in the, in the hostage film where the hostage taker executes one of the hostages and then it aims the gun at the next person. And this is the moment where Janeway's forced to abort the rescue plan. Very scary moment and the captain announces that they've lost and it cuts right to McKean saying, wave one. Janeway is Videa and Mad here. Your decision to capitulate saved the lives of the other hostages, Captain.

You should take some comfort from that. I don't. I love how often she is really angry and not upset like a sort of controlled rage at the circumstances. I really like this about her character. Yeah. The camera pans down and she's got a pencil on her hand. Yeah. It's interesting because so. Where did all these pencils come from?

Yeah. So it just had a huge supply from the Dixon Tycon to Roga company before they left SpaceDoc. Why are they using the replicator credits on something they can't use for anything except for breaking. The puzzle here is like what does fear want? When your adversary is like an emotion, what do you do about that? I mean, what do you do about it? I mean, I think that the best thing to do is to give your emotions an ultimatum, which

is what Jane will do. That's good advice for anyone out there who's having a hard time dealing with their emotions and ultimatum, the first thing to try really. And this is pitched to Fear the Clown, who is like, you know, get to issue ultimatums, we won. And the doctor's like, yeah, but like, you're plugged into her wall power. Like, she can throw the breaker whenever she wants. At any moment, she could grab the plug from the cord part

and pull it out of the wall. Just like, when you're pulling it out, that's actually like easier to do, right? Like, it's plugging it in when you're holding it from the cord that's really challenging. Yeah, but everyone does it the same way. Yeah. And fear the clown also only has a minute to agree to this. But the offer is this. Give up the hostages and Janeway will take their place. This is classic captaining right here. Yeah. She's going to give herself up.

This is classic captaining right here. She's going to give herself up. And so Janeway gets into the pod and the clown gets excited because he knows what's coming. Yeah, he can feel it. We get a dissolve to Janeway entering the scene and everything else having gone away. It's just Michael McKeein and Kate Mulgrue having a scene together. And this is like the moment I've wanted from the beginning of the episode.

Yeah. And I love how they eliminate all the distractions to give us that. Yeah, that was an interesting choice. The all of the other circus performers disappearing. Do you think that's because these are capital A actors and like by having a bunch of circus shit happening in the frame it might diminish them as that? Trying to get a serious point across? I mean I feel like the

distractions would have been motivated but I also liked having them not there. Like I'm not quite sure how you make that call as a as a director but I also liked having them not there. Like I'm not quite sure how you make that call as a director, but I think it was the right move. And it kind of lays bare like the complexity of this set. Like, you know, like there's so much crap going on on screen this entire time, but they built like a really big weird thing like this episode. And so she's explaining like, yeah, so like you get it, a really big weird thing like this episode.

And so she's explaining like, yeah, so like you let them go and you can have me and he's like, well, how do you know that? Like, I'm going to hold up my end of the bargain. She says that she trusts fear. He can't, he can't quite experience her mind just yet though, because of that lag that we've talked about. So they start warming up the hostages and they're waiting for them to, their own systems to take over

so that he won't have the capacity to scare him to death. And Janeway is just kind of buying time. so that he won't have the capacity to scare him to death. And Janeway is just kind of buying time. I've known for you. It's a very healthy thing, most of the time. Her way of doing this feels very seductive to me. Did you get that vibe too? Yeah, not in like a sexy way,

but in like the intellectual seduction. So nobody here thinks power is sexy. I love her confidence of like going in there to trade blows with an emotion and being able to do it. And that's actually kind of like emblematic of the sort of message of this, right? Like the conquer your fear and you will conquer death, energy of this solution. Yeah.

You know, while this isn't actually Janeway, it is this hologram of Janeway comes with the swagger that Janeway would have in the same way. Yeah. And it is revealed to fear the clown that this was a trick. Janeway is not in stasis, but is, you know, she's only half plugged into his system. They sent a hologram of her in, and he would have noticed if she'd been in there long enough,

but he did not. Janeway's monologue to the clown coincides with the reduction of the program and the background, right, and this feels like an in-camera effect almost. We're getting darker and darker in the frame, and so is Janeway. I like the in the shot reverse shot. It's not just the clown that's being reduced. It's both of them because the program is ending the way this episode ends is so intense. Yeah, because there's an order of operations here, right? Like the clown fades out with Janeway

continuing to talk him into that fade to black. She basically says like you, like all fear, will vanish. And they are lowering the lights on him. What will become of us? Of me. You're gonna die, Tron! I'm a friend. I know. I was expecting a button, you know? Like, I was blown away at the flex of where this episode throws the those three end credits up.

This is two episodes in a row, Ben, where there's some intentionality with where those credits come. Yeah. And a utility to that that I'm really enjoying. I am too. Did you like this episode? I mean I'm always going to reflexively be nervous about an episode that is like scary Star Trek episode. Yeah. Because there is a pretty spotty history of quality where that is a thing. I mean, I think it's a fun bit of business that we're watching this episode the day after

Halloween or whatever. Right. I like that this is a different spin on that theme. I think Michael McKeein raises the floor on what this episode is and was to the level of like respectability and goodness that is far, far higher than a move along home style episode. Yeah. But this is not my favorite type of Star Trek episode generally. And I was very curious about whether or not it was regarded as such by the people who made it.

So I dug into like the production of the app. And almost across the board board everyone was like, we really hit this one out of the park. We did something really different, and it was really good for it. And I think creative people often conflate doing something really different with doing something really good.

And I think that happened here. I don't think this isn't a specially good episode, but I think a lot of people see how different it is and regard it like that in a way that I kind of disagree with. Well, I think the issue of whether it's good comes down to whether you find it scary and whether or not you find the like the big theme of fear to have been dealt with in an interesting way. I did really like Janeway kicking fear in the balls. Yeah, I kind of think that it succeeds at that.

And I really respect the hell out of the fact that they found a way to make it scary and compelling despite how corny it is visually. Like, that seems like a great challenge. Another episode that I was so glad I wasn't watching in a room where my wife was doing her serious job. Oof, you are so right about that. All you're doing is looking at it. It does not work. And that moment, like the Star Trek fan who's been burned by a move along home,

like I'm sitting on the couch like watching what happens when Harry and VLT wake up in this environment, bracing myself. And then like every turn was pleasantly surprised at how sophisticated the episode was in spite of that. And like, I know that there's like a way to do this episode that doesn't look as silly as this one does. Bringing circus performers into Star Trek thing has almost never worked for me. But it's quite of all that.

I thought this episode really succeeded and succeeded on hard mode, you know. It's a really great Janeway episode because her proximity to the threat is close. I mean, even though we know at the end when she starts shit talking fear, she's not actually there. But I mean, so often in Star Trek, we're view screen to view screen when we get a moment of pushback. And it felt different. It hit differently to see her get into this guy's face. Yeah. And tell him what she did. And I thought it was a great moment for her character. And it made me like her more as a captain. It was good stuff. Well, do you want to see if the view screen has any priority one messages on it?

Adam? Oh yeah, I'm gonna dial it right up. Priority one message from Starfleet coming in on Secured Channel. Need a supplement on him. A supplement? A supplement. A supplement. Yeah, it A supplement. A supplement. Yeah, it's extra.

The interest alone could be enough to buy this ship! Ben our first priority one message is of a commercial nature. Wow. And the message goes like this. Are you looking for great art to support your fandom? Yes. Go to VCR and Photography. The artist is one of the best friends of DeSoto,

and you'll see art from trek inspired images to landscapes to Australian rules football. Ha ha ha. Now that's a specific type of fandom, right there. I'm given the two fingers point right now. That's what they do in Australian rules football. The two fingers. Oh is it? There's a man in a big hat that he makes the two fingers point right now. That's what they do in Australian rules football. The two fingers. Oh, is it? There's a man in a big hat that he and he makes the two fingers and that means you've done a good thing.

That's great. Every time I get two fingers, it means I did a bad thing. Is your partner a total Row Lairon? For a unique gift, for a friend or a loved one, let Virginia Collins create an image of your person as their favorite character, higher custom art in mid-June, get it by the end of July, it's amazing, mixed media art suitable for framing. Dang, that rules. That's a factor turned around in a priority one message, I think.

That's a lot of fun. That's a lot of fun. That's a lot of fun. Yeah, so go to VCR and photography on Facebook and Instagram to browse what they've got there. You know, do a little window shopping before making a purchase of your own. And then message VCR and photography for a custom quote.

Is that sure for venture capital art and photography or is that sure for Virginia Collins art and photography? What would be your guess? I'm sure Virginia Collins is dealing with that question quite a bit. Would you need my money for Virginia Collins? It seems like you got all the VC you need. Indeed.

VCR and photography on Facebook and Instagram. We have another one here of a personal nature from Captain Knuckknack Dejodo. And it goes in, it's to the Friends of Dejodo. Goes like this. To my esteemed crew, thanks for piloting me virtually through the Seattle Quadrant during this challenging year. I hereby grant the following promotions.

Daniel, Chief of Science Lab Safety, Michael, Commander of Citation Ops. Leah, Dean of Shakespearean Studies. I really love you guys, and your message made me so happy. Thank you. Hey, we we recognize Captain Knuck Knack from the internet, a familiar name here in the P1 section of the show also. I know. I miss my Seattle friends at a desodo, good to see that they're thriving up there. Yeah. Then our final priority when message is from Tim, it is to Kelly. The message goes like this, it's been four years since you got me that P1 message and guess what?

We did fill that time with morning coffee and cartoons, road trips, beautiful recorder music, ice cream sandwiches and reading nights. Ghost Cat even moved in with us. I can't wait to see you walk down the aisle if we haven't already. Wow. And remember, I love you and I like you. Really, really sweet. Yeah, that's good stuff by Tim and Kelly. That's like an anniversary of a P1 is like a new thing that I like to see people celebrate. The like you is so important to any relationship, almost as important as the I love you part.

Sometimes even more. It's big. If you'd like to get a priority one message for someone you like or for someone you love had to maximumfun.org slash jembo-tron. And hey, here's's hoping it's both Hey Adam, it's that been did you find yourself a drunk Shimoda? I am a sucker for just a blatant insert shot when you need one There was one such shot. I've got this is a timecode Shimoda. If you go over to 10 minutes and about 11 seconds at that first McLaughlin group, they do an insert of a Chicoete react here where he basically just does

nothing for about four seconds on screen. And we've both had to do this before. Like, you don't quite have the coverage you thought you had. Yeah. You need to maintain the continuity of the scene. You're dodging around to the different characters reacting. Oh, I don't have enough of this one thing. But we do have four seconds of Chico Te. Yeah, yeah. Plosibly listening.

Ha, ha, ha. Like, they cut right back to this angle later where he actually delivers dialogue. Yeah. But this totally looked to me like a, we haven't called action yet, but we're rolling. Well, I think that that's like critically, like I think that that edit works

because Chico Te is about to say something. It's a shot of him thinking of the thing that he's gonna say in the next shot. Yeah, like if it had cut to Nielix, it would have bumped a lot more. But yeah, like, that's a great call, great charmota. I'm going to give it to the clown just because it was so fun to see Michael McKean in a in a Star Trek thing. A real great, that guy to see pop up. One of our great actors and comedy minds, for sure. It really ruled.

Yeah. Objection noted. We'll do this without you. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it.

OK, Adam. Why don't you head over to gach.bizslashgame. Get those dice ready. Well, I tell you, that next episode we will be covering season 2 episode 24, 2Vix. What? A bizarre occurrence during transport causes 2Vok and Nelix to fuse into one alien humanoid known as Tufix. I came into voyage, you're not knowing much about it at all, but even I know of this horrifying monstrosity. And how divisive this character is.

Yeah. Yeah. how divisive this character is. Yeah, yeah. My friend Manusadya has a whole Twitter account called Justice for TwoFix. The thing about that, Ben, is that I haven't had an opinion about it because I haven't seen the episode. Yeah. But I'm excited to choose a side.

I haven't too. After the next episode. I think we like narrowly missed an opportunity to have this be a measure of a man episode on the game of buttholes Yeah, instead it's gonna be like a fucking bathtub episode or something Yeah, where are we? Ben, I've gone to the game of buttholes The will of the caretaker

You're required to learn as you play role and our runabout is on learn as you play, roll. And our runabout is on square 35. One square ahead is the Nielix's Galley episode. That's where we're just going to drink a bottle of Tlaxian Champagne. That would be a pretty good square to hit for a legendary episode.

A heavy episode that asks us to resolve a moral quandary. I have routinely rolled a one in my history of this game. Let's see what I get. I have not rolled a one. I have rolled a three. Shula! Did I win? Harvey. To put us on square 38, it is a regular old episode by you and me. Probably... Wow. Appropriate for the experience.

That we have our wits about us for this one, because I know that this inspires passionate opinions. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to bring an opinion. Amazing. Yeah. It'll be an interesting first for this Star Trek review show. That'll be next week in the meantime.

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card daddy Bill Tilly who runs our social media accounts at Greatest Trek on Instagram and Twitter and he also moderates our Twitch streams. We do live streams. How to every other week over on twitch.tv slash Greatest Trek. Yeah. If you'd like to join a community of friends of DeSoto, you can find those all over the internet. You've got credits. We've got Facebook groups. We've got drunksremotor.com, Discord. We've got greatestgen.fandom.com for the wiki.

And people use the hashtag greatestgen on Twitter. Yeah, friends at DeSoto are making friends with each other. It's great. The music you're hearing right now, it's the card song by Dark Materia. Dark Materia graciously allowed us to use it forever, for nothing. And that is why we thank Dark Materia at the end of every episode. The theme and interstitial music for the greatest generation was made by Adam Ragusia, longtime friend of the Soda and friend of ours. He is the captain of his own very popular YouTube video channel. You should go over there and get inspired for what you're going to make for dinner tonight.

Sure, sure. And with that, we will be back at you next week with another great episode of Star Trek Voyager and an episode of the greatest generation voyager that is hosted by one person named Badam who must be killed for the good of the show. I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to kill whatever that is. With my bare hands if I have to. God damn.

Spoil a alert for Adam's opinion. Before they're even introduced to me, I don't even know who or what they are. There already be dead. Make it sound, make it sound. Make it sound. Make it sound. Y'all have got it, got it, got it, got it. Three, two, one. One, two, two, three, four.

We should count off the show like a rock band every time. Yeah, just Bruce Springsteen, the beginning of the episode. What's up, Madison Square Garden! spring steam the beginning of the episode. What's up Madison Square Garden! Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artist-owned. Audience-supported.