The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Arsenal are the champions of Europe: Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Faye Carruthers is joined by Suzy Wrack, Tim Stillman and Sophie Downey to reflect on Arsenal’s historic Champions League victory

This is The Guardian. In the 90s, my friend and fellow journalist Dom Phillips was at the centre of the UK's dance music explosion. By 2022, he had mysteriously disappeared in one of the remotest parts of the Amazon jungle with his friend Bruno Pereira. In 2025, so many questions remain. I'm Tom Phillips,

The Guardian's Latin America correspondent. Listen to Missing in the Amazon from June 5th. Hello, I'm Faker Rothers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Arsenal are champions of Europe. Against the odds, they've brought the Champions League trophy back to North London for the first time in 18 years. We'll analyze the game and the celebrations, plus we'll talk about what it means for the club going forward. We'll also hear from Adrienne Jacob, head of World Sevens Football,

to find out more about the new tournament and how it's been received. All that, plus we'll take your questions, and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Now then, I have the most happy smiley, wonderfully adorned in red scarves and jumpers panel for you today and we've already been discussing the fact that this is not going to be a neutral pod today. There's going to be all the love piled at Arsenal Football Club, quite rightly so. Susie Rack, can you now see behind the tears that you've shed for the past however

many days? I mean, no, and I'll probably cry during this at some point, given that I've cried periodically whilst cooking dinner or doing the washing up or just, you know, walking down the street. So yeah, like high likelihood of tears at any point. Tim's already admitted that he was crying last night as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think I have several times and might happen again. Yeah, we recorded the Arsenal Women Ascast last night and kind of went over it and yeah, that got the feels going again. And I'm delighted to do this again, because I just don't want this weekend to end and

this is an extension of it to help relive it again. So extra delighted to be here this morning. Tim, it's just like birthday celebrations. Just keep them going for as long as you want. It was literally Tim's birthday yesterday as well. Oh, happy birthday birthday Tim Stillman. Sophie Downey, oh my goodness what a weekend and you were literally front and centre. You'd been in Lisbon for such a long time leading up to it as well. What an incredible achievement. Yeah I mean I'm so lucky in my career to have witnessed several moments and that's really,

really one right at the top of it. I was saying like my first Champions League game that I covered was Arsenal Barcelona in 2012, October 2012. Everything was so different then and then to be at the celebrations yesterday, I also shed a few tears because it was pretty emotional. I wasn't in Lisbon, but I did shed a few tears watching on the television. You can't love football if that doesn't make you feel emotional in any way, shape or form, that kind of achievement, especially because it was a little bit against the odds, as I said at the start. So the 18-year wait is over. Arsenal are champions of Europe once again and as the final whistle blew in Lisbon on Saturday Renault-Slegers side completed what was perhaps unthinkable not perhaps it was

unthinkable at the start of the season overcoming the queens of Europe and arguably the best team in the world in recent years it finished 1-0 to the Arsenal Arsenal won Barcelona n 0 thanks to a second half goal from none other after we predicted it last week from the substitute Stina Blaxtonius. We did get an email in Suzy from Graham saying can we just sit back and let Suzy bask in this brilliant result? I mean yes yes, we can, without a doubt. For the two Arsenal lovers on the pod, how was the weekend for you? How are you analysing it now with three days in between it?

Oh, it's just brilliant. I mean, part of the magic of it was going into it with no expectations necessarily of what was going to happen. You know. I was very much like, if we lose this game, I'm happy to take the participation awards. Reaching the final in and of itself for the first time in 18 years was a huge achievement, particularly given the season, the start of the season, Renee coming in as interim and then being made permanent manager just four months prior. It's a phenomenal achievement just to have reached that having beat Leon the way they did having come back in both games, in both the quarterfinals and the semi-finals before this. I was just happy to be there. And I don't know if that kind of feeling perhaps contributed to the way the players were feeling maybe. They were

quite relaxed as well. There was literally nothing to lose really and everything to be gained and that would just just made it a really really enjoyable weekend. There wasn't necessarily nerves or anything like that going into it. There was just like excitement and yeah, like I just I keep running out of words to describe the way I felt during the match. When Ian Wright said on TV that he felt his heart do something weird that he had never felt before, I was like, he has just described what I have been struggling to put into words during that match because I think I turned to Sophie multiple times and said, my heart feels funny, I don't know what it's doing, like among the many things that I inflicted on Sophie in that match. But yeah, I just, indescribable.

Can you describe it, Tim? Yeah, my emotional journey for the match was pretty similar. I came in with quite low expectations and not a lot of nerves. But once Arsenal got through that first 20 minutes, because I'll be honest, one of my benchmarks was I don't want what happened to Chelsea four years ago. Not saying that to have a dig at Chelsea and to be honest I'm not sure there'll be any Chelsea fans listening to this anyway. But because Barca can do that to anyone and I just thought I just don't want it to be a washout. Compete and you know compete as well as possible and then once we got through that

I started to think okay this is actually quite an even game. This looks like a game between equals and that made me more nervous as the game went on. And when we were kind of reliving it last night, there are lots of like mini turning points like Steph Catley's block from the Bonmatti shot, Caitlin Ford blocking across and celebrating it like a goal. I think there was a moment in the first half where Emily Fox was really boxed in and she just, she did the road runner on Claudia Pina and just burst past her. And I think these little moments just slightly shifted the mentality and made me shift mine a little bit. And then, you know, after, after the goal, I don't mind admitting I was an

emotional wreck. And, and when the final whistle went, it was Sophie who found me first actually, because I think she could see I was in some trouble. I think it was Emma from the BBC asked me, because she's being professional and typing her copy. And I think she was asking me about Steena Blackstenius' contract. And I think when I turned round and my face was bright red and covered in tears, I think she realised she'd made a mistake to ask me a logical question in that moment. And yeah, just an unbelievable day and an unbelievable evening out in Lisbon as well. Just one of the

best weekends of my life, no doubt. Oh, I saw all the celebrations. I have to say, I had massive FOMO. It looked brilliant. I know, Sophie, that you were one of the few that actually thought Arsenal could go and do it, so you must feel pretty vindicated now. Yeah, I had this weird feeling. I just had this feeling that there was something about this game that they would do something quite special. I said it to Susie, and I think Susie laughed at me beforehand. I also said it to Susie, and I think Susie laughed at me beforehand. I also said it to my wife Rachel, she also laughed at me.

She was like, not gonna happen. But I just think when you think about the story of the season, right? When you think about the comebacks, like Susie said, when you think about, you know, Renee's leg is and the whole UNICEF situation, football has this weird thing sometimes of like just producing magic and fairy tales

when you least expect it and it just kind of felt along that journey all the way along, you know, all of the comebacks, all of the setbacks that something special might happen and yes they were the underdogs, I'm not denying that, but I just had that weird feeling and I was so calm going to the game and I'm never calm going to games, whoever it is, I'm always a bit nervous. I was so calm until Stena scored, Stena Blackstainia scored and then I was like, oh into games, whoever it is. I'm always a bit nervous. I was so calm until Steena scored, Steena Blastania scored. And then I was like, oh, like, shit,

this is becoming really real. This last 13 minutes is gonna be hell. Poor Susie next to me, you know, I started, I never normally do this, but when the seven minutes went up for injury time, I started my stopwatch because I just couldn't, like, it was gonna be way too long. I think that sent Susie over the edge. So I had to deal with her as a blubbering wreck next to me.

But I think the first person I actually really wanted to go see was Tim. We've been on this journey this whole season. We've done every away leg, I think, together. And I know how much you put into this this team and how much it means to you. So that's why I wanted to come and give you a little cuddle and celebrate with you. Oh, I love that. I love that. And actually, you know, we're consistent on this pod because one of the last things you said to me, Susie, when we previewed the game last week, when I said, are you going to be tactical with your voting in terms of do you think Arsenal

can do it? You meant I'm not even being tactical. They're just not going to win. Well, I mean, look, we are consistent on the Guardian Women's Football Weekly that our predictions are terrible. I was stamping it down. I was stamping it down. I did. I had a flame of hope, right? Like Sophie has explained some of the reasons why I had a flame of hope, but I had a flame of hope because like, and this is no offence to Chelsea at all. I think they're a phenomenal team. I love speaking to their players. I love Sonja. I think she's incredible. Their achievement this season has been absolutely phenomenal. And I've taken some criticism for last week's

pods in like people saying I've been too critical and not just celebrated enough of Chelsea. And I think that is, that's analysis, right? It's because they've set the bar so high, anything but Champions League for them doesn't feel like enough. So I'm analysing in the sense of their own bar that they have set themselves and how good they've been. So what they achieved was incredible. But there was just something about watching Arsenal play this season when they were at their best and watching Chelsea play this season. And I think that multiple times this season Arsenal have played the better football. Just not consistent.

That's been the problem, hasn't it? Just not consistency, held up by that really, really bad start to the season as well. And Chelsea are dogged and they get the job done regardless of whether they're playing well or not. And I fear because it was a season in transition for them, what they will look like next season when everything kicks into place and they start playing the beautiful way we know they can and have shown at times this season. But I think overall Arsenal played the better football when they were at their best.

And so that had given me a flame of hope, but I wanted to stand down on every flame of hope that cropped up in my field of vision because I needed to write on this game, and like, I could not write, like Sophie's timer sat next to me counting down those seven minutes, I could not write an intro saying Arsenal were champions of Europe because the thought of having to delete it, and I've written this in a personal piece that hopefully goes up at some point, the thought of having to delete those words meant I did not give a shit about any deadline, like I could not be the person writing Arsenal or Champions of Europe and then pressing that backspace key, I just could not do it. So like the copy had to wait, it had to wait until the final whistle and I had like sobbed my heart out for a little bit first and then I was like furiously typing to like try and get something out. My first hit was absolutely

crap. Can we just put an asterisk there? Sorry Guardian editors. But yeah, the first hit was absolutely crap. And yeah, the second one was much better. But yeah, I like what I thought was really funny was like Tim's right that Chelsea Barcelona final that that's why I just didn't want us to go down early. And like Chelsea were really unlucky with that game. Those first two goals had a lot of misfortune in them. They were a better team than that. And so we like we knew that they can they can do things to very, very good teams. And I just like my hopes are so low that I was just leaning over to Soph Johnny Lou and Tom

Gary like through the first 36 minutes of that match going well Chelsea were 1-0 down at this point. Oh Chelsea were 2-0 down at this point until the 36 minute when I was like the game was over Chelsea were 4-0 down at this point Much to their amusement, but it wasn't like to slag off Chelsea. It was like, thank God we made it this long through Barcelona's incredible pressure and play and beauty. How exactly did they do it, Tim? Because we said on the pod last week that they had to be near on perfect if they were going to win it. And I think it's fair to say it wasn't necessarily the best Barcelona performance that we've seen, but how did Arsenal get the

job done? Yeah, there's a few things I've spoken to with coach and some of the players probably just to give an insight into the preparation. I mean, first of all, they knew how important the first 20 minutes was, particularly because Arsenal were coming in off the back of a fortnight without a game whereas Barcelona were still playing and in the semi-final first leg against Lyon Arsenal really struggled in the first 25 minutes and I think they knew they do that against Barcelona they are going to be 3-0 down so the start of the game they didn't play out from the back very much in that first 20 minutes because the message was very much don't give them anything and because I think they felt

that once you get through that first 20 minutes our confidence grows. Barcelona perhaps they used to being in a commanding lead by then. The other thing they did that Beth Mead told me was they were doing 11 v 11s in training. So Renee named the team early in the week and what she did was set up an 11 v 11 situation where the subs had to be Barcelona in training. And so Beth was kind of saying as disappointed as she was not to start, she had to be Caroline Graham Hanson in training. So she had to train like a beast and they all did because they had to make it as hard as possible for the starting 11. So that really raised everyone's level in training. But I think they got the preparation right as well in terms of

after the WSL season, they just took things down a bit. The players had a couple of days off and then the week building up to the game, they really went for it. And I think what impressed me most, aside from the tactical side of it, is just, and I think this is because of the manager, how calm they were. So when the goal was disallowed,

in my head I'm going, oh, this is gonna lift Barcelona now. It's lifted the crowd. We're in trouble the next five minutes. They dealt with it. When Arsenal scored, I thought, oh, here we go. Barcelona gonna throw everything. Now the next kind of five minutes they dealt with it. When Arsenal scored I thought oh here we go Barcelona gonna throw everything now the next kind of five minutes is so key and they just dealt with it like there was just there was a

serenity to this performance and I think that that is the biggest quality that Renée Slaygers has brought to this team she's brought a real almost Serena like serenity. Yes it's a really interesting point actually, because you very rarely see her, you know, angry on the touch line, animated on the touch line, and that clearly gets through to the players, with no disrespect to her predecessors, obviously, but they were very different. And actually, that then links into,

so, the defensive side of the game, because you have to be calm calm up against a side like Barcelona When you've shipped 12 goals in your last three games, and then you're up against you know the juggernaut that is Barcelona You have to keep calm and that was quite impressive actually I thought the defensive side of their game I mean it was so impressive especially you know as you mentioned there the last three games where there were some real concerns about Arsenal's defence and especially when they get hit on the transition and how they were coping with that but I think every single one of that back line really stepped up. I think Leah Williamson had the game of her probably her career in many respects she was just getting onto everything she was stepping in she was getting tackles in in the box when when they came in but I think the other and

if I'm not wrong Tim correct me if I am but I don't think any one of the back four made a single foul in the game which is quite incredible when you're playing in Barcelona team as slick and quick and ticky-tacky as they as they kind of are so they were like completely on it with the game I think the way that they did kind of restrict Barcelona in a lot of ways to shots from outside of the box as well. I know there were a few moments, you know, Bonmatti got in in the first half, there was a Claudia Pinot in the second half in the box. But generally they were forcing them to shoot from distance, which is exactly kind of the playbook that you need when you're playing Barcelona, force them wide and force them to shoot from distance. And I think the whole defensive effort, both from the four at the back, but also the midfielders and the wingers who chased back in Caitlin Ford,

another one who had the game of her life out of possession, more than in possession, I think, she was just constantly, constantly backtracking, getting her foot in, making herself a menace. And Johnny Liu next to me, I was sitting next to Johnny Liu from The Guardian and he just kept saying they're rattled, they've got in their faces and they've been rattled and they're not used to being rattled and I think that's the biggest key that they did get in defensive aspects. They got in their faces, they got those tackles in. Barcelona are not used to that, I don't think so. It immediately kind of set the tone for the game going forward.

used to that I don't think so it immediately kind of set the tone for the game going forward. Yeah we'll talk about Barcelona in a second but a word on Stina Blaxtonius Suzy because she's not had the most consistent Arsenal career but she's going to go down in history now isn't she scoring the biggest goal in the last 18 years for the club it was absolutely massive and we teed it up didn't we we last week as well of all people to have come and scored that goal but they needed her pace at that point when she came on didn't they? Yeah I can't even think straight because Sophie's made me like try and remember the hilarious analogy that Johnny Liu used about, didn't he say the West Wing was it?

It was when CJ is being told to get in the President's face. You have to get in the President's face. That's what Arsenal were doing to Barcelona. But yeah, Stina, I mean, you go through so much pain watching her sometimes when she's offside and She has so many opportunities and she doesn't take them and she took so much flack when Viv Middema left you know lots of people saying oh she can't feel her shoes and things like that, but she steps up in the biggest of moments and You know, I've literally got her Wikipedia page up in front of me You know her debut was against her debut goal against was against Manchester United

You know, she scores in the Conti Cup final in 2023. She scores in the Conti Cup final in 2024. She scores in the gold medal match of the Olympics in 2016. She scores in the gold medal match of the Olympics in 2021. She scores in the 20 I want to say I want to say 20 27 euros, but I can't find it. My Wikipedia scrolling is going to anyway. That's too fast. That's predictable in the future. That's how many she scores. 2017. 2017. In two years time. Exactly. She scores in the big moments. And like, I just there's something incredibly heartwarming and lovely about how much she hates the spotlight for someone that like gives herself the spotlight

by stepping up in those big moments. She just looks so awkward. I saw a video yesterday in my multiple scrollings of every and watching of every single thing that exists in the world online at the moment, while she was speaking speaking and being interviewed at the parade, yes, the parade, the trophy lifting, yes. She stood very straight with her arms, very straight by her side. And then just next to her, Leah Williamson laughing to the other players and is doing a little impression with her, looking like a little penguin with her arms straight down by her side. And she's just lovely. She's clearly like really, really lovely and like, yeah, so incredibly humble. I just feel really happy for her given like sort of the flak

she's taken of various points, you know, to be able to do that in the, on the biggest, biggest club stage is just, is just brilliant. Well, speaking of players who don't really like the spotlight, so to speak, Kim Little is champion of Europe, Tim. I mean, it's pretty good to say that out loud, bearing in mind, did she join the club a year after they became Champions League winners in 2007? Yeah, absolutely. And she's a real bridge in the history between those two teams.

But as you say, she just kind of missed that first one. And I don't think there's even the most, you know, understandably begrudging women's football fan of this success for Arsenal would begrudge Kim Little at all. And I think the respect she's always had within the game is very, very clear and very, very loud. I gave up years ago asking the question who's the best trainer because everyone just says Kim all the time and her kind of professionalism.

People like Hope Solo saying it's the best player she's ever played with, which when you consider who Hope Solo has played with, that's high praise indeed. It feels like, I think particularly because she's played for an international team who are never going to challenge for the biggest honours. That's maybe, I say affected her standing. It's probably just not quite given her the same spotlight. The fact that she has almost no digital footprint online. She just goes about her business very, very quietly. And you know, I said to someone yesterday, everyone deserves this, but she deserves it

just a little bit more. And I loved Susie asked Leah Williamson a question yesterday about, you know, will you be starting the Kim little Ballon d'Or campaign? And Leah said, if it had ever been up to me, she'd have four already. Um, which I think says everything. And, you know, she's got one year on her contract. I suspect that will probably be it. So she wasn't going to get too many more chances to get this and it just feels right that Kim

Little is a Champions League winner. Absolutely. Yeah, it really does. I want to focus on Renee Slagers though, Soph, because eight months it's been since she took charge on an interim basis. 127 days after signing a permanent contract, she goes and does this. It's been an incredible journey for her. She's such a young coach still. How do you even go about describing what an achievement this is from her point of view? Yeah, I don't think there's ever been many quite like it, you know, in terms of being able to take over in that kind of short space of time and do what she's done with a team that was so lacking

in confidence when she took over. And the fact that, you know, she was just, she was in the backroom staff as well. You know, you kind of expect when big changes happen, you expect someone to come in from the outside and you get that, you know, manager bounce and all of that kind of stuff. But the fact that she was within the setup and she's kind of, yeah, that journey of the last eight months, I think she always talks about being humble. I think that really, really comes through in everything that she does.

Even the fact that she was on the sidelines, and I really, really rate this by the way, she speaks to me in a lot of ways. She was on the sidelines in her t-shirt and shorts in the biggest day of her life. Like she was just like one of the other staff. I think that really just kind of epitomises what she is about as a coach. She's very much one of them. It's about the team thing. She talks about, yeah, as I said, the humbleness. Every post-match of every round that I've been in, she's talking about needing to keep their

feet on their ground and remain humble and not think too far ahead. And that's exactly how you, you know, one step at a time. That's exactly how you get the kind of job done, I think. And she's really instilled a confidence in these players. You can tell they really love playing for her. You speak to, you know, the likes of Leah, Beth, throughout the course of the season. And they all say how much they enjoy coming to work in the morning and enjoy playing under Rene Sleggers and it's a bit you know crazy to think that this is only the start really of her career. She signed an 18

month contract in January and I think the club would be absolutely bonkers if they don't this summer go down and make a sign of a five-year contract, put pen to paper because she needs a long-term vision now. She's done exactly what she needed to do, I think, in terms of taking over. And yeah, it's now her squad to build and build around her image of what she wants Arsenal to play like in the future. Yeah, I agree completely. We have talked about what Arsenal got right, Susie, but what did Barcelona get wrong? I mean, they look pretty shell-shocked at the final whistle.

God, both Tim and Sophie have set me off, so that's a great start. Praise for Kim Little and Renee. Sophie's on the cusp of setting up a Renee Stan account for all of the footage of her coming out after and in the celebrations as well. Yeah, they did look flustered, particularly after, as Tim said earlier, they had, like Arsenal had weathered that first like 20-minute spell like really well, and sort of the first half as well. I thought it was so even in that first half, much less so in the second, but they did not look comfortable. Arsenal kept them sort of like very central, they struggled to get the ball out wide when they did. I mean, Katie McCabe and like Caitlin Ford's efforts on Caroline Graham

Hansen were just absolutely superb. I was watching a compilation of McCabe and Hansen's battle earlier and she just doesn't like miss a thing. And that was where they were thinking of really like kind of punished Arsenal was in those wide areas potentially with Arsenal keeping that midfield so congested. But yeah, I think it was, I don't know, whether they underestimated Arsenal or whether they were just a little bit shocked by the way Arsenal kind of came into that game and like sort of was set up and the confidence in the side. but they just didn't really step out of second gear at all. Like I don't think they went up a level.

Only Aitana Bomati really was like sort of at her best for them. But I don't wanna say that in a sense that, oh, well, if they were all at their best then they would have won blah, blah, blah, blah. Because it was Arsenal that stopped them from being at their best, right? Like you can't, you know,

one doesn't exist without the other. So yeah, I just think they were very taken aback by how good Arsenal are. I mean, even like Bomati was really wonderful in the pre-match press conference when she was talking about Arsenal, how they deserve to be in this final and like, you know, that they hadn't, they've never scored four plus past Leon and things like that. But at the same time, the narrative was sort of all plucky little arsenal, like all the way through from everyone, really, like particularly the opponents. So like, I think maybe there was a little bit of underestimating there.

Yeah, it's difficult when everybody's bigging you up and you're the favorites and you've done it so many times before and you know that your opponents haven't had the greatest of seasons it's really difficult not to kind of get into that slightly casual mindset I suppose. Renée Sleggers did allude to the fact that it could be a springboard for Arsenal's success this is what she said this means so much for everyone who's built towards this across many years but it also means so much for the future because it motivates people it motivates us and it shows what we're capable of. Of course if you're part of

Arsenal you go for trophies that's what the club wants and that is what we want as well. So what is this going to mean in terms of the wider impact for the club in the short and long term Tim do you think? What I really hope this does there's work to do in transfer market as there always will be every summer and Arsenal have a couple of areas of the squad where they're aging out a little bit and need to get a little bit younger. But what I really hope this does, I've always maintained, usually in the face of opposition, I don't think there's a talent gap between Arsenal and Chelsea.

I just don't think there is. But you know what Suzy in particular was talking about earlier? It's that Arsenal's high level is a match for anyone But it's that 70 80 percent level when you go away to Aston Villa away to Brighton Maybe after a Champions League game and Chelsea will just win Completely forgettable 1-0 wins that no one will ever talk about or remember again But they'll put the points on the board that is what they've had over Arsenal for the last few years. And that's what I really want this to build for Arsenal, that belief, but also that kind of,

you're not, no team is gonna be able to play like Arsenal did like in Lyon or against Barcelona. You can't play like that every week. It's what's your 70% level? What's your level when you rotate a couple of players, when you take a couple of players out? And for me, that's more of a, maybe more of a psychological thing. Just having that mentality of grinding results out. That's what I want this to build because what Arsenal have shown is that talent-wise,

they are okay. They are completely okay, but they just need that consistent level and I hope this builds a bit of belief. But what I really hope it builds as well is that the players go away and say, okay, not only have we not won the league in a few years, we haven't really competed for it and let's go and let's give Chelsea a real, real shot next season and try and win the league title. That's what I hope. They'll have gained some new supporters as well, I'm sure of it. At least 5,000 Arsenal fans travelled out to the final, took over Lisbon's famous Pink Street as well. They've been a huge part of this journey, haven't they, Soph? What was the atmosphere like out in Lisbon?

It was incredible. I was with Suzie, we turned into Pink Street and you could just hear, well you could hear the Arsenal fans before you could see them and you just turned into Pink Street and you know it's the street with the iconic coloured umbrellas at the top and yeah it was just this like wave of red and white everywhere and singing and chanting and I think this has been the really, I'm so pleased for them because they've been on the journey the whole way as well. You know, the Arsenal supporters group have put in so much work to try and build a fan base to connect with fan groups,

you know, in the countries that they've been in, whether it's been Oslo or Sweden or wherever they've travelled through the season, they get connected with the Arsenal fan groups in those cities, in those countries and it's been a real effort and I know there was a lot of effort going in to make Saturday really really special for the travelling fans and have those events and you know that gathering on so that you could really get the the kind of vibes going before the game and yeah I think Arsenal have shown the way in that respect in terms of building fan bases, building a culture. We saw it yesterday as well so I think it's very special for them and I would like to shout out Farah as well who is the head of the Arsenal supporters group. She puts in an awful lot of work to get that sorted, to get that done and I don't think people really realise how much work it actually takes so big kudos to her.

Sorry I'll just add to that as well the the committee for the Arsenal Women's Supporters Club were invited to the celebrations to celebrate with the players up in the kind of diamond club after the parade yesterday which I think was richly deserved because stuff like taking over Pink Street and all of those bars that doesn't just happen they phone ahead they do it every away game they phone pubs ahead they say we're gonna bring 100 200 people you know can you kind of save an area for, they do it every away game, they phone pubs ahead, they say we're going to bring 100, 200 people, you know, can you kind of save an area for us? They do an awful lot of work to build that kind of social environment around games, which is so crucial, particularly in women's football, where so many fans might like women's football,

but don't work with people or have people in their family that like it. They've made a real effort to say, you know, come on your own and, you know, come to the meetup and then you'll have friends to go with. They've worked really hard on that. Yeah, that's really lovely and lovely touch from the club as well. And those celebrations have been extensive, haven't they? Not just in Lisbon, back home as well, the after party and celebrations, as you mentioned there, Tim. Jess Glynn with an after party, iconic photos that I've seen across social media, Katie McCabe, finally a celebration as well at the Emirates as we mentioned yesterday and you were all there

as well. What did you make of it? I've gone again. All the supporters club stuff was so nice. It was fantastic and what was lovely was, you know, it's a bank holiday, Monday, it's half term, I did not have a babysitter or anyone to look after James or a friend that he could go to, so I asked him very kindly let me bring him with me and it was just like so great, I tweeted pictures to like celebrate that moment with him there as well. Just really, really nice, especially when, and I've spent a lot of time reflecting on this in the past few days, thinking back to the time spent with my dad growing up, watching Arsenal. It was just brilliant. What I just

couldn't get over was how similar it was to some of those big celebrations of old like the FA Cup finals in the same place at the Armory like not Cup finals, Cup winning celebrations. Obviously the parades were much much bigger scale because that's the nature of a parade but the 98 double winners parade, the invincibles parade, it was the same feeling it did not feel like the Little Sister event or the Arsenal Women parade, like it was the same feeling. It did not feel like the little sister event or the Arsenal women event. Like it felt like an Arsenal event. And that was the thing that really like got me in the throat and like, yeah, punched me in the gut

all day. And afterwards, was that feeling? You've just had surgery. You need to take care of yourself. Yeah, it's dangerous. Yeah, it was great, it was just so great. I would say let's have a word for Katie McCabe who is joining up with Ireland this morning. I'm sure the physios and the strength and conditioning staff are going to have their work cut out, but knowing Katie McCabe, who by the way set a record for minutes played in the Champions League campaign this season and once again, I think certainly in the top two for minutes played for Arsenal, which she is every single season never injured. So, you know, no questioning

of her professionalism at all, but it's fair to say she added some colour to proceedings, maybe some colour that Arsenal didn't entirely appreciate at all times, but I think Arsenal fans really did and I think it was great to see the players' personalities as well, kind of so authentically. And yeah, some of the pictures in particular coming out just absolutely iconic and I hope to see them as bronze statues outside that stadium one day. I was just going to add maybe from a wider perspective of the women's game, I've been to two events like that in my time.

The Lionesses at Trafalgar Square which was obviously huge after they won the Euros in 2022 and that event and as far as I know that domestically that was the first time it's been done solely for a women's team. I know you know other teams have joined on the buses of men's parades and stuff like that. But I think exclusively for a women's team, that was the first event at least in the last 10 years, where it's happened with the focus on the women's teams and achievements. And I think that is a really iconic moment in terms of the growth of this game. You know, I hope we see many more of it.

We've seen it with Barcelona when they win things, They have the same thing when they go back to Barcelona and party. So I hope this is the start of many. It has to happen. We shouldn't always be in the shadow of the men's game. I think we've now reached a point where all of these achievements should be starting to be celebrated. And it was very, very special looking at it

across that crowd. Yeah, it really reminded me of, I mean, I've been in this game 13 years. It really reminded me of how far we've come in that time. We have come a very long way. We also have received an email just to wrap this up from Jim Hearson. We've probably answered most of his questions already,

but there's just three extra ones that I'm just gonna throw in. He says, so many questions after Arsenal's fantastic Champions League triumph. How amazing was Lea Williamson? How did Suzy feel on the day and how is she now? I think we've covered that one and how many pasta di natta did she consume? And where's my gluten-free one that should be added on the bottom? Oh, Lea was so good. I was watching a compilation video of her as well. And there was one point

where I turned to Sophie in the game after a particularly incredible tackle in the box, the calmness on the ball, where I was screaming boot it and she didn't and she just does this, like, you know, so calm just to pull the ball away from the feet, I think of by Matty and then just kind of shift it. And I said to Sophie, I'm about to throw my wedding ring onto the pitch, get down on my knees and propose to Leah. Like, it was just, that moment was just that brilliant. I haven't told my husband that probably should keep it quiet. He listens to the pub. That's a bit of a disaster. How did I feel on the day and how am I now? I don't want it to end like Tim was saying at the start, I just don't want it to be over. I

want to like bask in this weekend and this feeling for as long as humanly possible and that's why I spent the absurd amount of money on one of those next season shirts with the 25 and champions on in gold for James which he will not appreciate as much as I would, but I could not bring myself to afford two of them. But yeah, I just, yeah, I don't know. I don't even know how I feel anymore. Pastel Donatas, I had one a day, except on the last day where I had at least two, but then there were some mini ones at various events that I also ate. So it ended up being quite a lot. And then I had two at the airport. So actually it was more than one a day by quite some way. But

I tried to not keep count. It was too high risk. A big shout out though to Johnny Liu, who at half time came up with a handful of pasta dinasters and was like, we can't get through the second half without them. So he kept us all fueled throughout. Well, you know, all I can say is, you know, we've waxed lyrical about Arsenal for the last half an hour or so. And all I can think is you did not bring me back a gluten-free pasta di nata. That's the only thing. I don't think they exist. I don't think they exist. Maybe not, but you could have found one and made one and found a chef that might make them. No I'm joking. I think there's more important things than that.

I can't even have them to be honest because I can't have the butter. They'd have to be vegan and gluten-free which I think definitely do not exist. Or taste very good. Well yeah I mean that's probably the main point. Tim, we're letting you go after another emotional pod for you. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of the celebrations. I reckon you can keep going for another few weeks or so. I think so, although I'm going to spend the day with my daughter today. So that might not bring me back down to earth, but you know, get me out of this little bubble. But no, it's always a pleasure. But this one was just a little bit more of a pleasure thank you. Wonderful, wonderful Tim Stillman. Right that's it for part one in part two we'll talk to World Sevens football's head of football

Adrian Jacob after the inaugural tournament took place in Portugal last week. In the 90s my friend and fellow journalist Tom Phillips was at the centre of the UK's dance music explosion. By 2022, he had mysteriously disappeared in one of the remotest parts of the Amazon jungle with his friend Bruno Pereira. In 2025, so many questions remain. I'm Tom Phillips, The Guardian's Latin America correspondent. Listen to Missing in the Amazon from June 5th. Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. There was yet more history made in Portugal. It was the place to be, wasn't it, last week? The first ever World Sevens football tournament took place in Estoril after three days of matches and the now infamous

creative walk-ons. Bayern Munich beat Manchester United in the final to claim the trophy and take home the top prize of 2.5 million dollars. There was loads of intrigue around the tournament with it being a completely new concept so to demystify it a little bit we thought we'd get on World Seven Football's Adrian Jacob formerly of Chelsea you'll recognize his name to find out how it all went. How are you Adrian? You all right? Yeah, very good. Really good. Tired, emotionally exhausted, but in one piece, just.

Well, you're on the right pod for that because we've just gone through the Arsenal Barcelona Champions League final. So, tired and emotional is the name of this pod today, for sure. Congratulations. It seemed from the outside to be a really successful first tournament. How do you reflect on it apart from being absolutely knackered? Do you know what? I think we've not actually had a full debrief yet with a lot of people left on, I think, Sunday.

I got back late last night. I think the overriding feeling is, we just had a lot of fun. When this idea came about, you know, at the end of the day, you think, okay, we can put this in place, we can do this. And then once things get started, it sort of took on a whole life of its own. It just seemed like a bit of a throwback in anything that, you know, we talk about football in so many different ways and you speak to players and you see how players react. And we had, you know, one of the important things, I suppose, for us, and we kept using this, this line about it being player centric. And I think what the amazing thing was, was the players just completely embraced it, you know, and I've spoken to quite a few members of the team, and

we've literally all been there just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And I think for me, pretty much every post, whether it's by a player or by a club or by someone who went, the word fun is in there. I think that's the overriding thing of everything, really. Yeah, I was watching it from home, obviously, we had Tom Garry out there. And like, I was shocked at how much I enjoyed it. I knew that I believed in the idea of it. I believed in the concept, but I was, yeah, I just did not expect to just sort of like fall into love with it that fast. Obviously in April, you announced that you were leaving

Chelsea after 11 years to take on this role. I mean, that's a big leap to take. Like what was it that attracted you to the project in the first place and the concept of it? So I think that's a really, first of all, I think the question, the way that you've asked the question, it wasn't about leaving Chelsea, it was about doing something different. When I spoke to the people involved and they told me the idea, I just thought, do you know what, it sounds something really, really different.

I think I was just really enthused by all the different aspects of it and doing something completely, completely left field and seeing what we could do and seeing where we could take this and sit, you know, obviously it really is a startup and we didn't have a great deal of time and seeing what sort of impact we could, you know, we could make with this and seeing what, yeah, just how we could do something different as opposed to, you know, the same, you know, the same things over and over again. And actually the excitement of everyone involved and the passion of everyone involved just sold the idea to me completely. involved and the passion of everyone involved just sold the idea to me completely. I was there on Friday and I had an incredible time and I think it really did strike me,

you know, this game is so serious a lot of the time and the kind of the fact that it was so fun, the fact that you saw the technical side of the players and you know they could really express themselves in the pitch was really important. And I've actually never seen or spoken to so many happy players in the mixed zone or like so many open and willing to give their time. You could really see how the energy was there. Did you have any discussions with the teams and the players beforehand about that? Or is it just completely organic? I've not seen my family for three months.

You know, none of us have seen our families for three months. We have people working all over the world. So time zones went out of the window. So, you know, it was normally sort of working from seven in the morning till midnight. So we did, we went really grand. We had so many really granular meetings and covered absolutely everything. But one of the things we really did was make sure there was nothing on the players and that actually, well, I went to the clubs and brought the clubs on board and it was very much, you know, just enjoy yourselves. I think the noise from outside was very, very much about the prize money, which yes, is hugely important. But it was also just an opportunity

where we weren't asking the players for anything. We literally just said, look, enjoy yourselves, have a great time in an amazing location. And I think this is, you know, one of the things I really have to, you know, there are lots and lots of things I'm very grateful for my time at Chelsea for. But I also know the standards that Chelsea have when we get away. So I knew that we had to have minimum of those standards. And so we created, I suppose, the stage and then said, just do what you want. Just have fun.

There's no, you know, we're not pulling you for activations. We're not pulling you for comments. We're not pulling you, you know. I think one of my favorite things about it, and first of all, everyone was so relaxed. Everyone was just, you know, and on the day of the final the United players were on the beach eating ice cream. And I just absolutely loved that. I just, you know, they were all really chilled and just enjoying it.

That's like a player's dream that is. What, no activations? We'd have to be somewhere at a certain time. They were absolutely a lot literally on the beach. Having brought all the clubs on board, with that in mind, how pleased were you with the buy-in? Bearing in mind it was such a blank sheet of paper effectively. Yeah, I mean, honestly that went way more than we thought.

And, you know, I think the great thing is you can't you can't create that and you can't say, OK, I want you to do this. I want you to do that. We said I think we built the stage and then just let them do what they want. So, you know, we tweaked quite a few things during the tournament. You know, the refs, for example, the refs were amazing. I don't know if you've seen the clip of the refs dancing before a game and things like that.

And yet again, with the refs, we weren't like, you have to do this, you have to do that. We took their feedback. Honestly, everything was about not you're on holiday, do what you want, but very much seriously, just enjoy yourselves, play football. We know it's not the Champions League. We know it's not the league. Just have a good time. You have everything literally catered for, you know, catered for you, go for it. Football's supposed to be fun, right? That's what it's for. We do forget it, Susie. We do. We really do.

What's, what were your biggest learnings from the first edition? I imagine there were, there were many and many things that you're like looking at for the, for the next ones of what you want to kind of tighten up on or things that you think you did really well, et cetera. As I said, we've not had the full debrief yet. The one thing that I really, really liked, which I was quite adamant about before when we invited clubs was the spread of clubs and different clubs from different nations and not having too many from one nation.

I think we can make it faster. I think the penalty spot was too close. As I said, during the tournament, we tweaked quite a few things. So during the first couple of games, we didn't have music. Oh, we had a bit of music, but the music was sort of like banners and stuff like that. And the guy who was in charge at the stadium, Greg,

who's just brilliant, his work for the Knicks at Madison Square Garden. I was always sort of like quite, okay, we're English, we're not making it too gimmicky, stop being so bloody American, okay? And then he just, he turned around to us and for the game, he's like, oh, after the second game, I said, oh, can we put some music on while we're playing?

And I was like, yeah, go for it, but keep it quite quiet, because I don't want the players to get distracted. I don't want it to become another thing. And after the third game, I think Bayan played the third game. And I was speaking to Camilla afterwards. And I said, what did you think about the music? And she just said, yeah, fine. I didn't even notice it. So like, okay, fine. So then became make it louder. Make it louder. And then the last morning, I went to Greg in his little box thing. And I just said, right, okay, I want you to go full on Madison Square Garden. And he turned around to me and goes, I've been waiting for this. So I was like, just I was like, pump it up, especially in the last minute. Make it ridiculous.

And I was like, and if we go into extra time, I was like, I don't want to hear myself think. So, you know, it was just like, literally, in the end, I was like, I think all of us, we were just embracing the madness, and embracing the ridiculousness of it all. But just the fun and doing different things. And, you know, not realising that we didn't have to work, do things in a certain way. So there's gonna be, there will be, you know, lots of things that, lots of tweaks. So yeah, but what they are, yes, we've got, to be honest, my brain has been going in every which direction about, and also one of the things is,

I know a lot of the guys who are back have supposedly spent the last couple of days just watching the zone and watching YouTube and just re-watching everything so I've not even watched anything yet so I don't know, it's the honest answer. Yeah I mean I think the fun, I really enjoyed the music too and I don't think I would have ever done the YMCA in a press box before but me and Charlotte Harper were going for it. Not sure it was technically allowed but we were like, what the hell with it. But no, it was also one learning I think, sell more hoodies because I really, really wanted the one that you're wearing and there weren't enough. Yeah, the merch was brilliant. You know what, so yeah, again, we had so many conversations about the merch and I'm getting involved in conversations about the merch,

which isn't my thing and I'm like Seriously every time I had to buy a new suitcase yesterday It was so good and in terms of maybe the skepticism that maybe came on intrigue I think with everything New that is new. There's always skepticism and intrigue about it when it's an entirely new concept We know there's a learning issue in the game so that was one of the topics that came up and there is a focus on European teams in this tournament and that was another maybe slight criticism that came out. How are you approaching some of those opinions? Yeah again we're speaking to players and we've been speaking to clubs. I'll be very very honest when someone went down I I was every time like, oh God, oh God, be OK.

Don't be injured, don't be injured. But I think speaking to players, actually, and I think one of the things that I thought yesterday, touch wood, everyone is absolutely fine. What was also really interesting is when a player went down, they got straight back up because they realized the game was carrying on. So it wasn't even a case of, oh, I just need a spray, some spray, whatever. They were literally straight up every time. And we were just like,

this is hilarious. But I think what was, you know, I am no expert on this whatsoever, but I think quite a lot of injuries come when you're stressed, especially with female, with women players come when you're stressed, especially with women players, that when you're stressed, your muscles work slightly differently. There was zero stress. And I think that really helps. I think the coaches were learning

as they went along as well, especially with substitutions. So we were expecting, you know, we saw a few times the players looked like they were a bit not tired, but you thought, okay, in fact, what, you know, oh, I'll run this off. You don't need to run it off. Just get off, you know, and if, you know, we had 16 games, I've got my calculator next to me, but that's a decent amount of football. The loading is as light as we thought it would be. The players were turning around and saying, you know what, we do more of their

missing training. The data guys who I've spoken to since have said it was basically like a pretty much like a light training session for them. So they kept it up. And so I think on that side, actually, it's worked. Yeah. And actually that player element is really core in that, isn't it? And, you know, you've got a player advisory council with the likes of Anita Asante, Laura George and Tobin Heath on board. How much have they helped steer things? board. How much have they helped steer things? You know what they are, the five of them are in their own ways, absolutely nuts.

They are brilliant in so many different ways and they offer so many different perspectives because there are five completely different personalities and with five completely different skill sets. Yet again we've just said to them you tell us, if you think we're doing something wrong tell us what it is, if you think that we should be doing this instead you tell us. As I said you know we have this idea of being player-centric. In this edition, we've achieved that because we've had the knowledge of what the players want and what they don't want. We also know we can tweak things

and we don't have to wait for it to go through a ridiculous committee. So I don't know if you guys saw the yellow card when Tuva took her top off. We were watching that and it was obviously because that's what we do. We're watching games, who knew it? And I was sat with Tobin, Neats and Kelly. And she took her top off, we were like, oh, she's going to be booked for this. And then we just went and then I think I just went, no, no, no, we're not having this. We're rescinding that.

Literally making the rules up as you go along. Because we can. So it was just like, you know what, it's fun. We're not just because that's how it works. We don't. And then, you know, we spoke to Minka, the referee, and she was like, God, yeah, really? Let's, and so they did this video of Minka receiving the and she was like, God, yeah, really let's and so they did this video of Minka receiving the yellow card back. But yet again, that was something really spontaneous and I think that Created the fun as well. You know Basically the players came to have fun and partying. That was yeah

There's also been a bit of an emphasis on the social impact You want to make in the places you go and things like that. What can you tell us about that? Okay, so the social impact was headed up by Will, who's got an amazing track record of bringing in certain programs to countries. What was really, really important to us and of all the ambassadors, I've got to tip my hat completely to Laura George. Laura is an incredible human being and so passionate about growing the game

and so passionate about social impact. so passionate about social impact. You know, I think this was my seventh visit to Estoril in the last two or three months. But what we really didn't want to do is just go there, have three days worth of fun and then leave. We want, you know, when we had these amazing clubs, when we had these amazing ambassadors in town, we wanted to give something back. We wanted to have these coaching clinics with Laura, with Tobin, with Kelly, with niece, I mean niece off the scale, honestly, with Sega. And just so they could,

the girls could have something to aspire to. So, you know, they had a list of different charities and different projects. They decided which ones were best between them. Did an amazing coaching clinic on the first day, I think it was for two hours. And then, sorry, Soph, but they all got a load of merch. As I know, who to come for a hoodie, right? Yeah, absolutely.

I'll tap you up later. And finally, Adrian, what's next for World Sevens Football? The next edition. I think, you know, we'll start on it pretty much straight away. I don't think there's any secret in not the exact location but where we're looking to do it. But I think also start looking for next year as well because I'm not doing this in three months again. Yeah you need to get some well-earned rest Adrian, it's been lovely having you on and hearing a little bit more about it. It's very much looking forward to the next edition. Thanks so much for being on the pod with us. No thanks guys, great to speak to you.

Brilliant, I feel like a Guardian Women's Football Weekly road trip is on the cards for the next one, that's for sure. Right I just want to finish off with an email that we got last week but it was just just too late for last week's pod. It's a long one but bear with me it's worth it. Hello Faye, Suzy, Sophie and Tom along with the 74,000 football fans who bought tickets and went to Wembley on Sunday I enjoyed the spectacle and lively atmosphere even if the game itself never quite lived up to either. Talking about the FA Cup final of course. Fair play to Chelsea for their incredible achievements this season even though it feels they're unrivaled

pragmatists rather than entertainers but it wins games and trophies and who can't admire Millie Bright. It's amazing to see how the game has grown in the last six years since my daughter Hebe This is Ian from Aylesbury, by the way, who's messaged us before Hebe and I have become regular matchgoers. We are Arsenal season ticket holders. So this may have coloured my pragmatists comment And this was also sent before Saturday. We'll take a win over artistry and entertainment this weekend But you got a bit of both artistry and entertainment this weekend. But you got a bit of both.

Participation, attendances, and media coverage has grown whilst the culture around the women's game has remained largely intact. And this season has seen the first cracks appear because of the wider exposure. With unrealistic demands on players by fans and the abusive social media the likes of Bunny and Chloe received.

As you've often discussed on the pod, we need to be careful how the game grows and what we risk losing as it does. leads me to the half-time BBC interview with Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, husband of Serena Williams who bought a 10% stake in Chelsea for £20 million last week. Thank you to Tom Garry and the Guardian. Just a reminder of what he said these are the queens of global soccer and they've got the trophy case to prove it so I feel feel so humbled. The sky's the limit. And what I love about this club is the club is unapologetically ambitious and this will be a billion dollar franchise one day. Is this the way we want women's football to grow? Ian says. Yes, investment is absolutely

needed to grow the game. But his talk of club franchise is where we want to go. Anecdotally, he be basically the response has been that's not what we want. I'd be interested to know the pod's thoughts. A utopian investment that keeps the game's integrity without becoming a clone of men's football seems unlikely. So what is the answer? What can we do as supporters to keep the game we love intact while still growing it? Thanks, Ian from Aylesbury. P.S. I love listening to the pod and have a huge respect for the way you reflect the culture of the game. Knowledgeable, to the pod and have a huge respect for the way you reflect the culture of the game. Knowledgeable, passionate, informed and friendly. Better luck with the predictions in

the future though. One of the best things about there being a summer tournament this year is we'll get to hear you talking football and keeping us company sooner than usual. Brilliant email. Thank you so much Ian. Who wants to take that? I can jump in, it's a really great question and a really complicated question because as someone who is a very left wing, I am uncomfortable with private equity investment within the women's game and the president that sets, obviously the men's game was born and grew in a very different way. And that's not something we've necessarily seen in the women's as much because they're connected to men's teams primarily that do have now these sort of major financial backers

and owners that often suck more money out of the club than they put in in the long term. I'm not a fan of that. But when we're looking at those that do come into the game, I think there is a difference between, say, Saudi investment in Newcastle or if we're talking Arsenal, the Cronkays' investment in an ownership, I would say less than investment of Arsenal, etc, etc, the Glazers of Man United versus someone like Alexis Ho, Hannion, who's come in just with what seems to be, and he's got, you know, a pretty good track record to prove it, a genuine love of women's sport, belief in it, belief in its growth and desire to invest in it.

Now, you know, does it make me totally comfortable? No, not at all. Do I have to be slightly realistic about where the game is, where it's going and where investment is going to come from, perhaps. But, you know, ultimately, I'd like to see women's clubs be done very differently, rooted in their communities, a mass movement to have them be fan owned, fan run, and not just fan player as well. And yeah, with a completely different and more holistic way of looking at the growth of the game and what it could do as a sport. But, you know, I do think there is a little bit of a difference

between the types of investment that is coming in at the moment, which, you know, it's not the worst thing in the world, is it? Right? Like someone like him and Serena Williams coming in and doing what they've done for Chelsea and Angel City. I'm not going to criticise that. I think well-meaning people putting their money where their mouth is, is a good thing to a certain extent. But yeah, I think in terms of how we move away from that kind of model of the game, it needs basically a mass movement, I would say, led like the FSA and fans groups and things like that and that's not necessarily a sizeable body or movement or feeling at this stage. Can it get there?

I think when friction comes that's when those things can change. Yeah that's a really good answer and And thank you very much, Ian, as well, and to Hebe for sending us that email. You can have your say as well. Just send in your questions via social media or email us at women'sfootballweeklyattheguardian.com and as ever, a reminder to sign up for our weekly women's football newsletter.

All you need to do is search Moving the Gold Posts, sign up. Sophie, it's been a pleasure. Been really, thanks for having me. Go get some rest Suzie just keep those celebrations rocking on. I'm gonna go and scroll TikTok, Instagram, X, Blue Sky and maybe re-watch the match entirely we'll see. Of course why wouldn't you do that? Right the Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Sophie Downey and Silas Gray. Music composition was by Laura Iardell. Our executive producer is Sal Amat.

This is The Guardian. In the 90s, my friend and fellow journalist Tom Phillips was at the centre of the UK's dance music explosion. By 2022, he had mysteriously disappeared in one of the remotest parts of the Amazon jungle with his friend Bruno Pereira. In 2025, so many questions remain. I'm Tom Phillips, The Guardian's Latin America correspondent. Listen to Missing in the Amazon from June 5th.