The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Barcelona brilliance and England for England – Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: June 6, 2023

Faye Carruthers has Suzanne Wrack, Alex Ibaceta and Ceylon Andi Hickman alongside her to round up the Champions League final and England’s World Cup squad announcement...

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is The Guardian. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. What a treat the Champions League final turned out to be and a comeback of all comebacks for Barcelona, who are crowned champions of Europe once again. We'll review everything that happened in Eindhoven,
Starting point is 00:00:58 plus take a proper look at the lionesses selected for the World Cup. England for England, Serena listened and Beth is heading down under. We'll discuss all that, hand out a few end of season awards, take your questions and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Susie Rack,
Starting point is 00:01:19 I feel like I should now call you Stat Woman because you posted up the other day from the end of euros coverage to the start of proper world cup coverage 59 matches five countries 196 articles most importantly 29 podcasts and five trophy lifts i mean what a season yeah it's been a very long season hasn't it a good season a great season like lots of fun but i'm really glad it's over a very long season, hasn't it? A good season, a great season, like lots of fun. But I'm really glad it's over. I'm just very, very tired. But you know, I can't complain too much, can I? You need to sleep a little bit. But when you read those stats, you must look back and feel quite proud. I'm quite proud of you in a very non-patronising way. Salon Andy Hickman, fellow hatter, which many people may not know congratulations oh my friends what a beautiful
Starting point is 00:02:07 beautiful couple of weeks it's been fay did you ever think it would happen no genuinely um i kind of dreamed i believed i did believe in a way but i'm a lutein fan how can you you know you know what it's like to be a lutein fan you can can believe all you like, but it doesn't mean it's going to happen. I was lucky enough to fly to Amsterdam from London Luton Airport. And I got to soak up a little bit of the atmosphere in the town, the city, very, very minimally. But there was some nice bunting and some nice projections of Luton Town being promoted. And it made me feel really connected. So, yeah, beautiful, beautiful weekend. Excellent. projections of Luton Town being promoted and it made me feel really connected so yeah beautiful
Starting point is 00:02:46 beautiful weekend excellent we need to catch a game next season that's for sure Alex Ibiceta you're not going to want to come to Kenilworth Road as a Barcelona fan I mean why would you our token one for today you must be Cocker Hoop yeah my voice is still a bit gone from the Champions League final. To say I'm happy is underestimating it a bit. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, one day, Salon, Luton could lift the Champions League trophy. You never know. I reckon it's the logical next step. Of course it is. Oh, bless you both. Oh, wow, says the Arsenal fan, who I cannot think when they might ever get their hands on a Premier League trophy again. Or a WSL one either.
Starting point is 00:03:31 Right, the ribbons on the Champions League trophy are Blaugrana. Barcelona did win their second Champions League title, coming from two goals down against Wolfsburg, to win a 3-2 thriller in front of a record crowd of 33,147 people. Susie, an incredible day with an incredible game to go with it. What was it like out in Eindhoven? Oh, buzzing. I mean, what's great is the Barcelona fans just travel in such force, which just makes the atmosphere absolutely jump.
Starting point is 00:04:02 But to be fair, Wolfsburg had a huge contingent there as well. With Tifo at the start of the match. The atmosphere in the ground was the most partisan Champions League final crowd that I think I've been in for a very, very, very long time. Well, ever. And I've been going since 2018. It was a really good atmosphere. I really enjoyed it when they played the like two main
Starting point is 00:04:26 songs of the clubs at the start of the match and the whole contingents were singing along absolute bangers both of them and yeah it was just a fantastic atmosphere i mean the very first champions league final i went to in kiev of all places was packaged together with the men's final still at that stage so it was um it was the men's final the following day and it was basically just full of fans that either couldn't go to the men's champions league final for some reason or sort of just you know wanted to be part of the the men's champions league weekend vibe and so it was just a very you know non-partisan dull crowd um that filtered in and was still filling up 20 minutes into the game was sold out but it was because of the men's final so like to see to reach a point where it's like sold out of its own accord in its own country
Starting point is 00:05:20 marketed separately and with big traveling contingency fans it's like a game changer that doesn't happen yeah and the game itself was fantastic salon and started with a bang as well either pie or the uefa women's champions league's top scorer scoring after only three minutes lucy bronze returning to that barcelona starting lineup after six weeks out and it's fair to say she looked a little bit rusty definitely it was sort of um quite a surreal moment I think seeing Lucy Bronze I think the pass from the goalkeeper is such a lovely one that that sits right in front of her she's calling for it she takes a good first touch out and then it yeah it was a it was weird to watch she kind kind of starts travelling inside, invites pressure,
Starting point is 00:06:08 and then gets bodied off the ball, loses it, and then it results in a goal. It didn't feel quite real watching that happen in the first three minutes from probably one of the best, if not the best, right back in the world. But I think you're exactly right. I think it did scream perhaps too early for her to come back. I was quite surprised to see her in the starting lineup. But the rustiness, the kind of decision-making, the not used to the intensity of what that game was going to feel like,
Starting point is 00:06:37 you can't recreate those situations in training. So I think that's kind of what caught her out. I think she responded well. I think it wasn't the best Lucy Bronze performance I've ever watched in my life. I think she managed to get through the rest of the game. But yeah, just quite a surreal moment and something that we all stood there a bit stunned in the ground thinking, has that just happened? I don't think anyone really believed that's how the first goal would be conceded for Barcelona. Well, if you're a Barcelona fan, Alex, I'm sure you were hoping that a second one wouldn't be conceded. But obviously you had plenty of chances yourself in the first half. But when Alexandra Popp got Wolfsburg second, were you thinking, oh God, here we go again? I think it was quite evident that every Barcelona fan had PTSD from Turin last year. I think every Barcelona fan in that moment would have been thinking,
Starting point is 00:07:31 oh no, here we go again, essentially. But at the same time, I think the Barcelona team that showed up this season to this final is completely different to the team that showed up last final. I think the last final, when Lyon kept scoring, it was quite evident that Barcelona were not at the level that Lyon were at in the moment, whereas here you kind of felt that Barcelona were at the level. It's not like they put their head down.
Starting point is 00:07:53 They were creating chances. Irene Barreiros missed that header, and she would score that 98% of other chances she would get. It was very unlucky not to score, and you look at the chances that Barcelona had versus Wolfsburg, and it was very unlucky not to score and you look at the chances that Barcelona had versus Wolfsburg and it was always going to happen I think the game plan not necessarily the game plan but the way that both teams play Wolfsburg was they were never going to have possession they were never going to have all the opportunities that Barcelona were going to have
Starting point is 00:08:18 it was going to be an Alex Popp opportunity that she's going to bang in her first opportunity that that might be the only opportunity she gets in the entire half they went by you as well I think she's unstoppable at goal scoring so it was kind of not in terms of scoreline but the game went exactly as you expected it to go but obviously Barcelona were just not finishing all the chances that they were creating which is quite evident and they do that quite a lot and it was just unlucky yeah but I I did feel the PTSD from Turin but I at the same time did feel that Barcelona were the better team and they had they were creating chances and not it's not like they they were kind of sitting off I think you saw it against Chelsea in the summer finals that it was a bit
Starting point is 00:09:01 more complicated um take the balls across the area and everything else. So it was, I had faith. I was miserable, but I had faith. Susie, did you have faith at half time? Did you have an inkling that Barcelona might be able to turn it around? I mean, well, I watched Arsenal do it in the game against Wolfsburg in Germany, come from two goals behind to level it to 2-2 to take to the Emirates. So, like, obviously it's doable.
Starting point is 00:09:30 It was just... The thing that staggered me is I thought Barcelona looked really shell-shocked in the first half. Like, the weight of the passes was so off. Like, a lot of stray passing. They just didn't look themselves i think they had a little bit of a turin hangover as well in that half and were sort of mentally trying to escape that a little bit so it was always possible but i wasn't sure if it was likely on like on that basis because they did
Starting point is 00:10:00 not look like the barcelona we've known well in recent years but also you know mostly this season although they've not had the best season or the most I mean it's ridiculous because they've been like incredible um but for their standard and without Puteas they've not played as good a football as they have in the past couple of years so like i knew it was possible but i didn't necessarily think it would happen but it was just a completely different team that emerged at halftime like completely different and i mean they were just they you know like ask them afterwards you know oh what happened at halftime and it's just like oh yeah we're just told to believe in ourselves blah blah like and just surely something more than that happened surely something bigger than that went down
Starting point is 00:10:48 because you just came out with just everything clicking again there was also just so many um chances in the first half that just didn't go their way and just didn't quite fall right for them that at points i was thinking is it going to be one of those days where no matter what you do nothing goes in and then everything shifted in the second half. 104 seconds was all it took between the two Patri Guajaro goals how important has she been Alex Puteas obviously been unavailable for a large part of the season Barcelona have had to rejig their midfield a little bit. But, I mean, she came on and, you know, what an impact. Yeah, definitely.
Starting point is 00:11:31 I don't think it would have been smart for Jonathan to put Alexiopoulos on at half-time. I think that would have rattled the team a lot more than it would have helped because the team have been doing fine without her, essentially. Mostly in the second part of the season, first half of the season, it was a lot of adjusting. I think second half of the season, they finally settled. And that Kira Walsh, Patri and Aitana midfield has been working quite well for them.
Starting point is 00:11:55 But I think Patri is adjusting to a new role. Obviously, when you look at Kira Walsh as a pivot, she kind of entails a lot of the Barcelona pivot. It's kind of when you do your job right, you're going unrecognizable on the pitch. And that's just the role that that role plays. And that's the role that Kira Walsh has played essentially for a lot of her career is kind of,
Starting point is 00:12:15 you don't recognize her as a big, big star because her job is very consistent. And I'm saying, I'm not saying that in a bad way. It's the very key part of the job, but she's not going to do all these flashy moves. And I think Patri had that same problem when she was playing the pivot, that she was kind of going under the radar, especially when you have Alexia Boteas in front of you.
Starting point is 00:12:34 It's quite hard to get that kind of stardom. But I think post-match, when someone asked Patri what kind of got into her to score two goals in the Champions League final, she was like, I had the aura of Alexia in me. So it's quite telling that, yeah, I think Padri and Aitana have adjusted really well to their new roles. Essentially, Aitana had to become Alexia in the sense of becoming that attacking midfielder. Padri had to play in a higher position and be more involved in the attack, as you saw here, of making those late runs into the box
Starting point is 00:13:09 and finishing that off. But I think Patri has been one of the best players in the world for a very long time now. And now, you know, scoring two goals in the final kind of gives her that crown and recognition that she's kind of been deserving of for a long time.
Starting point is 00:13:26 Yeah, I agree on Patri sort of stepping into her Puteus role. It's interesting that she said it like that because they sort of needed a player to step into that forward midfield role all season, like really convincingly. And no one has, neither her nor Aitana, have really like grabbed that role by the horns like I'd say you know there's been flashes but like neither of them have properly sort of embraced it because it's you know it's such a different role for them to play when you're so used to playing alongside someone that plays there so effectively so to see it happen in the final I thought was really quite special and it actually really excites me for Barcelona next season because the relationship between those players with the
Starting point is 00:14:12 understanding that they have of what it takes to play in that role and what the person playing in that role wants from the players around them I think is a unique situation to be in I mean injuries happen all the time but I always think that when when a big player is out and the other players adapt to filling the hole to a certain extent they learn a lot about that role and what it requires and when you then insert that player back in there's just this new level of understanding between players despite the fact that they've not played together for a while, that is really, really strong. And of course, Salon, Fridolina Rolfes, winner ultimately in the end, felt inevitable. Alex and
Starting point is 00:14:56 Susie have both said they really believed that Barcelona were going to turn it around. Did you feel the same as well? Yes's a start for the second half made you think that this was going to be really difficult for Wolfsburg to hold on to that roleful goal is was quite hilarious though and what what a goal to to win the Champions League with it almost felt like it felt like a bit of a microcosm of Wolfsburg's overall downfall. Like, you're 2-0 up against one of the best teams in the world. You're cruising in the first half. And then suddenly it just all capitulates in front of your eyes.
Starting point is 00:15:37 And that's basically what happened with that third goal. It was just, I think it was Wilms with the clearance, it hits another player, bounces back. It was just poor from everyone. It was a comedy of errors was what it was. It was, but it was also kind of beautiful in that football can just be completely chaotic for a second and then for a team of, a whole team who'd pinned so many of their hopes on winning that game, probably at half-time, in an instant, a flash was completely taken away from them.
Starting point is 00:16:07 And what can you do in those moments? I just was thinking about what was probably going through the whole of the Wolfsburg team's heads at that minute, thinking, how have we messed this up? We just can't give away these kind of goals to these kind of players. And then you just saw the pendulum swing. I mean, the pendulum was swinging massively to Barca's favour in that second half
Starting point is 00:16:28 and the momentum was building and you just knew at that point it was going to be really, really difficult to come back. Although it was only just one goal, like they could have, I don't know, they did push in those last few minutes, but it all just felt a bit too late and a bit too lacklustre.
Starting point is 00:16:42 Yeah, it did, Susie. And it felt as if the wind had been taken out of their sails somewhat, but it also felt a bit too late and a bit too lacklustre. Yeah, it did, Susie. And it felt as if the wind had been taken out of their sails somewhat. But it also felt a little bit strange how few changes manager Tommy Stroop actually made. I mean, Eula Brandt, who created the goal, which helped them reach the final in the first place with her assist against Arsenal, and Tabea Vasmuth, last season's second top scorer in the competition, were both on the bench, which just seems mad unless they're carrying injuries. Yeah, and bringing on Bremer in the 84th minute,
Starting point is 00:17:10 who got the winner against Arsenal in the semi-final at the Emirates, not really enough time for her to have a significant impact on the game either. So they were really, really boasting of a full strength squad to pick from and how fortunate that was and but it does make you wonder whether that there was like actually some like real truth in that or not because like I don't understand why you're not bringing on your brand and Wasmuth I just don't like that to me is quite baffling but it was like I kind of liked that it was a really tight end to the game and that it was a really tight result because in all my years of covering the Women's Champions League in person I think I've only seen one game be particularly tight and that was the first one which went to extra time in 2018
Starting point is 00:18:08 the one in Kiev where it was nil-nil Wolfsburg Leon also scored first in added time then Alex Pop got sent off then Leon scored four and it wasn't actually that close because there was just complete collapse but all of the ones since have sort of been over in the first half and so it's actually really really satisfying to see a game go the distance and yeah be a much more exciting result for me to watch it in person than they have been in recent years and I think good for the game as well good for the Women's Champions League because they have been a little bit too one-sided in recent years. And actually you say it was close but probably Barcelona deserved to win it with 26 shots in an XG of 4.6 I would say and it's Barcelona's second Champions League
Starting point is 00:18:58 trophy Alex the first one though that they've actually been able to celebrate with with their fans what exactly does it mean to the club and the supporters? I think it means almost more than actually winning the Champions League. I think essentially every interview before Turin was kind of like, we've not been able to win the Champions League with our fans. We won it and it was great great but not having the fans there it was kind of a really really really big downfall to kind of the the emotions around winning a Champions League and it's quite evident that obviously you see the support of the fans
Starting point is 00:19:35 and you understand why it's so important to to these players and you see you see all the the Camp Nou records you see the travelling fans in masses. You hear, I mean, that stadium was absolutely buzzing. It was so loud. The Wolfsburg fans were absolutely drowned out in the second half once those two goals went in. And for the players, that support is really crucial. You've seen a consistent attendance in the smaller stadium as well,
Starting point is 00:20:04 in the Johan Cruyff Stadium. I think the average was about 4,000 this season. So the fans play a really big part in the rise of Barcelona and their dominance, I think, in Europe. So winning it in front of a crowd was a really big deal for them. Every interview beforehand, it was like, we want to win the Champions League. And more importantly, we owe, essentially. they felt like they owed the fans a champions league after what happened in
Starting point is 00:20:29 last season um because obviously that was first champions league final with fans and there was again a lot of traveling fans the crowd show up and and they felt guilty for for losing in the way they did on on top of that um so i think it was quite telling that the players really really really appreciated. They appreciate in general all the fans and they love to celebrate with them.
Starting point is 00:20:49 There is an inside joke travelling with the fans of the theory of the two that started quite a few months ago. And obviously this is the second Champions League and every time the players would kind of tease it.
Starting point is 00:21:03 So in every photo they would put a peace sign and there is a photo of the trophy lifting everyone was like put a two up put a two up and so that relationship between the players and the fans is quite close and you see them kind of recognizing like all the fans on twitter for example would have a little two with their username so it's quite telling how close the fans and the players are on that sense. And I think when the fans enjoy it, the players enjoy it. And it's overall just a really, really good feeling.
Starting point is 00:21:32 And yeah, I mean, the fans, the support that Barcelona have had in general is just amazing. Yeah, two trophies, Susie, but three consecutive finals. Obviously, that first Champions League League win we thought we might see an era of dominance for Barcelona but as Alex said that loss to Lyon in Turin last year kind of spoiled that a little bit but it's still two trophies in yeah I mean like it's good because they are undoubtedly playing the most attractive football in Europe it's really enjoyable to watch the fan base has gone with them en masse I mean I don't know how many coaches traveled this year last year to Turin there were 37 coaches that drove overnight from Barcelona to Turin and I know there were coaches
Starting point is 00:22:26 doing the journey to Eindhoven as well so like the level of commitment from the fan base is hugely deserving of it as much as the football they're playing and the way they're playing it and the quality of the players I just hope the rest of europe can keep up and stay competitive i think there was something really satisfying about the two styles of football that went up against each other in this game that are so so different but have like such good qualities and really disrupt each other so i just i'm yeah like that's my one risk is that they now just accelerate away from the rest of the pack. I just don't want that to happen. That doesn't mean Barcelona staying still.
Starting point is 00:23:11 It means others raising their game and really figuring out a way to play against this football that is just so, so, so difficult to play against. I was chatting to Jonas Eidevall before this game for his column for us. I did a bit of a tactical breakdown and he was just amazing. But one of the things he said was when Arsenal played Barcelona last year, the first game in Barcelona, and he said for the first half an hour, they just did not make a mistake, not a single mistake. And he was just frustrated, obviously, as the manager of the opposing team, but also was just, like he said, it was incredible to watch as a fan of football
Starting point is 00:23:49 because there was not a single mistake in that 30 minutes. And he's never seen that happen quite in that way. So, yeah, I mean, it's enjoyable, isn't it? But I just hope people figure out how to play against that. Yeah, Susie raises an interesting point, Salon, because I've got a question for you from Adam Salter, who sent this in on Twitter. Will Wolfsburg ever win the Champions League again?
Starting point is 00:24:14 They've won two Champions League titles, but close to a decade ago now, and they've lost four finals since then. How do they catch up? Sorry, it's just making me think I was at the UEFA event beforehand and they were, it was Shanice van der Sonden and Beth Mead on one team
Starting point is 00:24:32 and it was Judy Feating and Lotte Sjölin and they were playing this game and it was like this or that that you had to choose and the question to them was would you rather have a runners- up middle four times or win the champions league once and I just walked out I was like that is such a stupid question asking professional athletes would you rather lose four times in a final or win once I was like obviously it's win once not finish second four times which is yeah probably what Wolfsburg fans
Starting point is 00:25:04 are feeling massively. And you don't trade the experience of winning for, oh, it's just good to get to finals. So a lot of empathy for those Wolfsburg fans and the club. But will they ever win again? I mean, yeah, they were 45 minutes from winning on Saturday. Obviously, it's a really simplistic way of looking at it, but they scored two goals.
Starting point is 00:25:25 They have incredible players. They have some of the best players in Europe. Watching Lena Oberdorf again brought back everything from the Euros final. She is only going to get better if she can keep injuries away. You've got Pop still going. You've got so many good players in that team that, that yes of course they have the capability to win and they know how to win they did have a slightly easier way to the final for this one but that can also happen again so no I definitely wouldn't wouldn't rule it out but I think yeah it depends on on on their opposition it depends on who else is coming up and around them I think I don't know you can do loads of thought experiments, right,
Starting point is 00:26:06 and say put them against an Arsenal or a Chelsea in that final and what would have happened. But playing against Chelsea in that final, they probably could have got a result in some ways. I don't know if Chelsea going 2-0 down at half-time in a Champions League final after what they've experienced before would have come back from it. But then again, it is Emma Hayes. So, yeah, they definitely can win the Champions League.
Starting point is 00:26:29 I'm just going to pick up on that, Susie. An easier route to the final. I could just see you wince as they beat Arsenal. I didn't mean that, Kate. Well rescued, Salon, but a tiny bit too late. Just to finish us off, Susie, two English players involved in this match, two England players.
Starting point is 00:26:49 A first Champions League trophy for Keira Walsh and a fourth one for Lucy Bronze. You obviously wrote about Keira's role in your match report afterwards. What a way for them both to finish their first season in Catalonia. Oh, it's great. I mean, I just like,
Starting point is 00:27:06 she's always been my favourite England player by a country mile she's just absolute quality and it's really satisfying to see her fit into that Barcelona midfield which wasn't like automatic it took a bit of work she said herself that she didn't really feel totally comfortable until after Christmas but even that is pretty rapid but you know you always wonder when a player is the most skillful in in England in the women's super league whether they'd be able to do it in the most technically gifted environment and so to see her flourish in that role for that team is incredibly satisfying and she's just a great person as well one of the things that I thought was telling was that all of the players afterwards that were sort of filing past her in the mix zone were talking about how much fun she was and like how good she was for team unity and things like that which I thought
Starting point is 00:28:01 was really interesting because I sort of assumed her Catalan or Spanish is not the best is the impression that I've got, that she maybe wouldn't be able to do that to a certain extent and to be the life and soul as much. So I thought that was interesting. I can tell you something. She can do the worm and that translates anywhere. You don't need to speak Spanish in order to be the life and the soul of the party doing the worm and she'll just bite into like an entire giant colin the caterpillar cake with just like her bare hands right well i think we have established that kira walsh is the life and soul of the party she does not need to speak fluent spanish we'll talk about her again
Starting point is 00:28:42 in a second that's it for part one in part two we'll look at the 23 lionesses heading to Australia as part of England's World Cup squad and give out some end of season awards as well. attack, fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit. No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today, starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected.
Starting point is 00:29:18 Be Zen. welcome back to part two of the guardian women's football weekly so suzy serena veegman obviously listened to the pod and clearly decided that bethany england had to go on the plane because you and i and let's be fair everybody said that she had to go Taylor Curry though wants to know who's going to start as the striker when we actually get to Australia it's a good question I think I said last week that like I would controversially maybe I didn't say it I have said it a lot anyway you did say it I know what you're going to say and you did say it that I would would keep Bruce on the bench. You know, like not had the best ends to the season. I don't think in an England shirt we've seen a like standout performance
Starting point is 00:30:14 when she started a game across 90 minutes. I think she fades quite early on and loses her impact off the bench. So for me, going on like current form and also like the strengths of players right like so I don't think Beth England is a great impact player I don't think Rachel Daly is necessarily a great impact player so for me I would have one of those starting and then maintain the effectiveness of Alessia Russo off the bench like that for me is the logical thing to do but then I'm not England manager and haven't got two European cups so like I'm always quite loathe to try and second guess or criticize Serena when her pedigree is so good
Starting point is 00:31:01 like until she makes a mistake yeah it's hard to to say anything but yeah that is so good. Like until she makes a mistake, yeah, it's hard to say anything. But yeah, that is my instinct. Solon, were you pleased with the squad overall? What was your overwhelming feeling about it? Yeah, I was really happy for Jordan Hobbs and Beth England that their decisions paid off to make those moves and get back on the radar. And I'm also really happy for Laura Coombs. I think that was a really nice inclusion and well-deserved. Yeah, I it's quite sad for Maya Letizia I think she's had an excellent season what more does she need to do um to get in but I saw Serena's comments about seeing her a bit more as a full
Starting point is 00:31:35 back than a centre back it's really interesting though if you look at the squad as a whole and kind of compare it to who went to Euro 22 and actually think about some of those players that we that we are missing due to various reasons retirement injury illness or just being dropped and you are missing Leah Williamson, Beth Mead, Fran Kirby which feel quite important a very important spine of a team and then you're also missing Ellen and Jill because of their retirements and then Demi Stokes and Nikita Paris are the other two names that that don't feature from from last year and and I think some of those obviously are more impactful than others and
Starting point is 00:32:15 will be felt more but it's it's been really great to see an England manager use all of the different opportunities that she's had from a major tournament success to the next one to rotate and see what works, who fits, how does it all come together? And I think that there weren't massive surprises in that squad announcement part of the reason for Letizia not being in, obviously, she mentioned full-back instead of centre-back, but also Esme Morgan plays with Alex Greenwood at Manchester City. And I wondered, she talked quite a lot about combinations in that press conference, Susie, didn't she? And I wonder whether that may have had something to do with it as well. Yeah, it definitely did I like I mean personally I would have taken
Starting point is 00:33:05 uh Mayer over Esme Morgan just because of the season that Mayer's had has been phenomenal um you know I'd probably have her in team of the year as one of the two centre-backs so it feels particularly harsh I mean anything can happen between now and the start of July that means that she gets rotated in any way so I wouldn't like totally hold my breath on whether she's out entirely the one that I thought was particularly not harsh is the wrong words like that I was mildly surprised about um because I don't necessarily totally disagree with it but like the one that I think could have been different I like Katie Robinson a lot clearly one for the future clearly an inclusion that's about giving her big tournament
Starting point is 00:33:51 experience and stuff like that but when you've got so many changes to the team because of the retirements and because of the injuries like I just wondered about whether Nikita Parish should be going in instead particularly given her form towards the end of the season, which was really strong. I thought she was United's best player in the cup final and stuff. So I was a little bit surprised to see that and felt a little bit for her because, yeah, great end to the season. And she's got that.
Starting point is 00:34:18 She's got a level of experience in major tournaments that a lot of the others playing up front don't have. So, yeah, that surprised me a little bit. Also Jess Park too. I think I would have had Jess Park or Paris, but Paris edging it based on experience over Katie Robinson maybe, but maybe that's just me being too harsh. I think Katie Robinson's been fantastic this season
Starting point is 00:34:44 and in a Brighton squad that have really, really struggled. I think she's been a real shining light. Susie, there's still a question mark over when the players are actually going to be joining up. The FA are adamant that they want to stick with the 19th of June. The ECA and the clubs are digging their heels
Starting point is 00:34:59 in and saying 23rd. I know it's only four days, but it actually makes a really big difference in terms of prep time and it also puts the potential farewell game under threat what's the latest is there any agreement that's been made I mean it's only two weeks away the whole thing's a mess and I just think everyone is being quite stubborn around at the moment like no one really wants to back down there were talks ahead of the Champions League final and afterwards I believe as well that didn't come to any like resolution it's ongoing
Starting point is 00:35:32 is like the word I keep hearing over and over again but basically yeah there's this bit of a bit of a standoff going on um you know it has to be case by case is sort of the argument i think coming from the fa and the pushback from the eca is you know we this is a compromise position the actual mandatory release date is the 10th of july we all recognize that that's a joke so we've negotiated this like early release period of the 23rd to the 29th, which takes into account a bit of flexibility within that. And I sort of get their position in a way in that you've got this problem where if they say yes to England on the 19th,
Starting point is 00:36:16 they've got Germany wanting to call theirs up on the 20th, do they say yes to that? What if a team has asked to call up on the 18th? What makes England special that it should be outside the rules but at the same time it's so late that this has happened and i'd be interested to know actually and i've not totally asked this question like how extensive the discussions have been between like within the last year even because maybe they have been ongoing for a whole year and it's taken it coming to a head at this stage for it to be widely talked about.
Starting point is 00:36:47 But England had these plans in November. Clubs were made aware of it. They hadn't approved it. And they're very clear on that. There was no approval of the plans, but they were made aware of them in November. So why are we so close to travelling to a World cup without agreement on this so there's clearly been like some kind of breakdown in communications between from an england point of view between november and now and like yeah absolute mess from start to finish um i just want to ask alex obviously we've seen
Starting point is 00:37:20 a couple more barcelona players pull out of the sp Spain squad or say that they're not going to be involved in the Spain squad for the summer obviously that's been a situation that's been rumbling on for a while with the dispute over the environment around the national team do you think that all of the players um all 15 or 17 or whatever it is of them that have not played for the national team in the past sort of year, not going to the World Cup. And also, what does it make you feel about your relationship to the national team as well, I was wondering? Because that must be quite hard when you watch these players
Starting point is 00:37:54 lift a Champions League trophy, be incredible, and then won't be able to be a part of that team that just has so much potential in the summer. Yeah, it's a lot to unravel, essentially. Badri said it yesterday that as of today, she's not going to the World Cup. Mabby is quite evidently definitely not going to the World Cup. I think she's made that loud and clear.
Starting point is 00:38:24 But the thing is, I think where the problem is lying now is that a lot of players, they want to go back if there's a compromise. I think a lot of players will accept that they will go back under X condition. And obviously, shockingly, the Federation's not really living up to that. And I think, well, also, as of now,
Starting point is 00:38:51 even if the players say that they want to come back, the federation is kind of taking that responsibility upon them. So essentially, it's not going to be up to Jorge Villa to pick players. It's going to be down to the federation to say if they're allowing X player to be available for selection. So it's that first stage of the players need to get approval from the federation, essentially, to be available for selection. And then you need to have Jorge Villa actually pick them. So it's more, it's just gone down to the politics of the Federation being hurt by the players and bruise their ego.
Starting point is 00:39:31 It's kind of like the petty decision of, we're not going to let you back into the squad because you said this and you said that and it hurt our feelings, is essentially what's going on now. But I know a few of the players, a few of the 15 players do want to go back to the national team
Starting point is 00:39:45 but again it's about those internal discussions about the conditions of them coming back and obviously we saw it in Ibarre that came back to the last the last squad's call up so you might see a couple but at the same time it's the fact that it's down to the federation and the fact that we have obviously seen the attitude of the federation of being hurt and their egos kind of taking the best of them I think it would be really hard for some of the players to get back in the squad but the possibility is there and again the internal discussions are going on quite early I think especially now that Champions League final has has gotten out of the way I think we might see a bit more progress,
Starting point is 00:40:25 but at the same time, how much progress are we actually going to see? So I think it'll be quite evident when the squad comes out next week, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly the same as Spain's last squad. But obviously, there's still a week where things can change. Yeah, we're talking about grown adults here, which always surprises me. And actually, leading into that, Susie, there's also a broadcast rights row brewing as well. It's kind of brewed and stewed really by now. The UK, Italy, Spain. He says the bids were so low compared with the men's tournament, they were a slap in the face of the players and a slap in the face to all women worldwide. Apparently, the UK bid isn't that far off, Salon.
Starting point is 00:41:19 I'm not ever going to come to you. Do you feel slapped in the face? I mean, to be fair, he does make a good point. He doesn't always necessarily go about it in the right way, as we know, but he does make a good point. But what's the latest on this, Susie? Is there actually going to end up being a blackout? Are they going to come to some kind of arrangement?
Starting point is 00:41:38 Who's at fault here? I hope not. I mean, it's farcical, right? Like, our TV should be being inundated with advertising for this tournament and it's not and that is so bad and i just like the thing that gets me is regardless of i actually think fifa have a tiny point here right like i think they're massive hypocrites in in the way they they are making the point in that they have historically undervalued the tournament they have given away the rights for free and now they're suddenly demanding money for it and going oh well we're upping prize money and blah blah and we're suddenly investing so now you have to
Starting point is 00:42:12 as if like the mental shift that goes on and like the practical shift that goes on has to happen at their pace um when you know we've been pushing for change for so long i mean they're not even going for equal prize money until the next world cup so like it's staggered there in a sense too so i find that all slightly ridiculous that you know it can be so angry and like threats of blackouts and things like that when they are the architects of the situation to a certain extent but at the same time the offers are incredibly low like I think Italy's is around 300,000 I think the Germany joint bid from two of their broadcasters around the four million mark the UK BBC ITV deal is like around the nine million mark so it's significantly better than the rest but they're all low and they're all significantly lower than what was paid for the men's I mean I
Starting point is 00:43:11 think the UK bid is around the sort of you know like eight nine percent of the the men's figure mark and that's the highest so they're all like staggeringly bad but at at the same time, is a blackout the answer and is a threat of a blackout the answer to this problem? No, no one wins from this. Like tactically, it's a really bad decision because no one wins. FIFA does not win from this, does not get more money. The broadcasters don't win. You know, there's journalists who like have no idea
Starting point is 00:43:40 if they're flying out to Australia in a few weeks time, for example, like literally have no clue because they don't know if they've got rights like it's a huge problem and then the public you know it doesn't do any good for the game any good for like national teams any good for those countries um yeah competing in this tournament it's just there is a point there but tactically this is like possibly the worst way to be making your point. That's the thing that gets me. Salon, how much are you fuming on a scale of one to ten? Your face tells a thousand stories.
Starting point is 00:44:15 I know, not good for audio, is it? I'm sitting with a lot, really. I'm sitting with the thread or the parallel of both what Alex was talking about with the Spanish Federation and Susie on FIFA and a lot of the TV media companies is that powerful men are just gatekeepers of our enjoyment and not only our enjoyment as fans our work as journalists the role of players and athletes like there's still so much power concentrated in the wrong hands that is so influenced by incredibly fragile egos and
Starting point is 00:44:54 whether that's Jorge Vilda whether it's Infantino whether it's people unwilling to change their their bids to go higher because of, you know, digging their heels in. Unfortunately, we're sitting here and we've started this conversation with, yeah, a really in-depth discussion of some of the best football we've seen all season from some of the best athletes we get to see and get to watch as players. And then to sit and have a conversation where there is a series of men within the Spanish Football Federation and managing the Spanish women's national team who will not allow some of the best players we've ever seen play football to participate in a World Cup at the
Starting point is 00:45:39 peak of their athleticism at the peak of their game and their careers because they won't say sorry or because they said something in the media about what they think they deserve as an athlete to play and now that is that's the reality of this situation we can take the joy and the love and the and the pure appreciation that we had sitting there on Saturday and watching this and all the content we've seen of the Barca girls absolutely loving it and getting all the clout and kudos that they deserve. But the reality is across the world. We are so at the helm. No matter what we do at the moment, until governance shifts, until these people are out of this game,
Starting point is 00:46:34 we will come into these problems in different forms every single year and that's what makes me feel really sick. I feel it in my stomach listening to Alex as a Spanish fan thinking I have to go to a World Cup or watch a World Cup or I'm not going to get to watch the best players in my country play because they haven't been treated in the way that they they should be and because a load of men are upset that now maybe they want to play again but they haven't said sorry it is yeah it's just it makes me so angry and sick and these are the conversations that we need to keep having
Starting point is 00:47:02 alongside the interrogation of the football and alongside the tactical analysis because that's really important too but you have to hold this because we are so far from where we should be as a game yeah and that's what we do on the guardian women's football weekly and we'll keep you updated on the situation next week as well it does mean we've run out of time for our end of season awards and i know that salon has done so much prep for this that we're going to ask her back next week and we're going to have some of our regular panellists. I'd rather talk about the politics, Faye, any time, any time.
Starting point is 00:47:33 But all of your prep was for the awards. No, actually, all my moments are political next week. Amazing, amazing. OK, we'll tune in for the political pod next week. Solon, see you later. See you later, guys. Alex, always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. See you later, guys. Alex, always a pleasure. Always a pleasure.
Starting point is 00:47:48 See you soon, Susie Rack. Bye, I'm going back to bed. Oh, lucky you. I'm off to work. We will do the end of season awards in depth next week, as I said, with some of our panellists from across the season. Salon's going to be joining us again. She's already had hours of fun with this this week.
Starting point is 00:48:07 Get yourselves involved as well. You can contact us on Twitter or email us on womensfootballweekly at theguardian.com to get your awards in. It is our last show before the end of the season. Next week, we'll take a short break and then prepare for the World Cup. We will be back previewing the tournament in July
Starting point is 00:48:24 as everything gets underway down under and of course for the World Cup. We will be back previewing the tournament in July as everything gets underway down under and of course be with you throughout. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver and Jesse Parker-Humphreys. Music composition was by Laura Iredale. Our executive producer is Sal Guardian. lawsuit. No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting
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