The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Chelsea take advantage of rivals firing blanks – Women’s Football Weekly
Episode Date: February 7, 2023Faye Carruthers, Suzanne Wrack, Robyn Cowen and Marva Kreel round up a busy transfer window – and a big weekend of WSL action...
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                                         Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly.
                                         
                                         Who knew the significance of two goalless draws on the WSL title race?
                                         
                                         And from two teams who brought us such drama on deadline day.
                                         
                                         Chelsea are the benefactors of Arsenal and Manchester United dropping points,
                                         
                                         while Liverpool pull away from the relegation places.
                                         
    
                                         It felt like a defining weekend in the WSL and in the Championship.
                                         
                                         We'll discuss all that, plus look ahead to the Champions League draw,
                                         
                                         and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.
                                         
                                         Well, what a panel we have today.
                                         
                                         Susie Rack, I feel like I've seen you more in the past two weeks
                                         
                                         than I have my own husband.
                                         
                                         Same, same. My husband's working shifts, so I also feel like I've seen you more than I've seen him.
                                         
                                         Oh, well, it's been a good two weeks then, hasn't it? For both of us.
                                         
    
                                         Robin Cowan, it feels like an age since I've seen you. How are you?
                                         
                                         Ages. Yeah, all good, you know, alive and sort of kicking. All good.
                                         
                                         I mean, that's two things to bounce alive and sort of kicking, all good.
                                         
                                         I mean, that's two things to bounce up and down and think that you are successful, I would say.
                                         
                                         Exactly.
                                         
                                         And just about kicking. And Marva Creel, an Everton fan with a smile on their face.
                                         
                                         That is a rare thing to see. How are you?
                                         
                                         Good. Yeah, definitely rare, especially in both men's and women's this weekend.
                                         
    
                                         So, yeah, happy for once.
                                         
                                         Absolutely. Right. What an end to the transfer window we had.
                                         
                                         And the narrative to go straight from deadline day into Arsenal and Manchester United dropping points.
                                         
                                         Couldn't write that.
                                         
                                         We'll start with looking at that attempt to sign Alessia Russo before talking about whether it affected both teams.
                                         
                                         Susie, Jonas Eidevaard said after last week's FA Cup game against Leeds that Arsenal were pushing hard to get a striker. I mean, they certainly pushed hard, but no success ultimately. What did
                                         
                                         you make of their attempts to bring both Russo and Signe Bruun to the club? I mean, desperate is the word, isn't it?
                                         
                                         Like, I get it.
                                         
    
                                         Particularly Rousseau, like, I get it.
                                         
                                         I think they will definitely go in for her in the summer,
                                         
                                         which would be a wise thing to do,
                                         
                                         as would every club in the world
                                         
                                         be looking at a striker of her quality being out of contract.
                                         
                                         But I know they were going after other players earlier in the window,
                                         
                                         like Sabine, Chloe Lacasse, players like that.
                                         
                                         But to sort of launch such a late bid for Rousseau,
                                         
    
                                         I mean, I think it's a big mistake.
                                         
                                         I mean, I talked about it being disruptive,
                                         
                                         both to United and to Arsenal.
                                         
                                         And maybe we've seen that almost instantly
                                         
                                         in the fact that both teams dropped points uh this weekend but I think for the bigger thing is that they haven't got a striker
                                         
                                         which like a like real standout world-class striker in the window which is a big problem
                                         
                                         I mean the market is tiny for for a player of that quality in January so that's a really tough
                                         
                                         ask but they also have told the world that they have quite a lot of money to burn
                                         
    
                                         which I think is like hugely risky going into the summer I mean pretty much every player they go for
                                         
                                         is going to be uh every club is going to be looking for close to world record fees on the
                                         
                                         basis of their alleged bids for Russo so I think on balance it probably wasn't the smartest move that's ever been made.
                                         
                                         I just think the likelihood of them prizing her away was beyond zero.
                                         
                                         There's no way Man United could have sold her in the context of the title race and their ambitions long term.
                                         
                                         I think it would have killed the club. I mean, how would they be able to sign anyone in the summer having let a player go and likely thrown their title race attempt
                                         
                                         consciously away?
                                         
                                         I mean, it just would have completely screwed them.
                                         
    
                                         So regardless of the money, no matter how much money it is,
                                         
                                         Man United do not need half a million.
                                         
                                         The women's team obviously would like that,
                                         
                                         but the club as a whole can afford to weather that
                                         
                                         for the sake of the context, I think so yeah stupid move stupid move from Arsenal smart move maybe
                                         
                                         though from Manchester United Robin it was a big statement and you know perhaps brave turning down
                                         
                                         that money even though when you look at the the context of Manchester United as an entity, perhaps brave is not the right word, but the right decision maybe.
                                         
                                         Oh, I mean, absolutely. I agree with everything Susie just said.
                                         
    
                                         I think, I mean, had they sold her to Arsenal, that would have just been,
                                         
                                         I mean, not in just the actual physical sort of, you know,
                                         
                                         giving one of the best strikers, you know, in women's football to a title rival.
                                         
                                         But just the optics would have been awful.
                                         
                                         Just gone, oh, OK, actually, you know, actually prefer this money,
                                         
                                         which, yes, as Susie pointed out, for the club as a whole is pocket money,
                                         
                                         let's be honest, for Manchester United.
                                         
                                         So it just seems so unrealistic and yeah desperate and it's it's it's bad for Arsenal
                                         
    
                                         because they've ended up pursuing someone who I mean they would never have given her to to Arsenal
                                         
                                         probably for any sort of money so it was just a bit of a waste of time I feel for Arsenal and
                                         
                                         as we'll talk about I mean that the the fact they haven't got a striker in. Now, obviously, it's not just all on the number nine,
                                         
                                         but it might cost them not just the title,
                                         
                                         but again, another trophy-less season.
                                         
                                         We'll have to see.
                                         
                                         Yeah, it's going to be fascinating, isn't it?
                                         
                                         And actually, I think when you look at the Champions League
                                         
    
                                         for Manchester United, it's vital, bearing in mind the season
                                         
                                         that they've had, that they make the Champions League next season.
                                         
                                         You can't get into the Champions League without a player like Alessia Russo.
                                         
                                         And then ultimately, I'm sure they'd like to keep hold of her and put a new contract on the table for her in the summer as well.
                                         
                                         Marvel, we haven't even mentioned Chelsea's surprise left field and again, ultimately unsuccessful bid for Katie McCabe, which was a bit random.
                                         
                                         Yeah, very random, especially as Chelsea are one team you say depth-wise aren't struggling too much compared to other teams.
                                         
                                         I think Arsenal made definitely the correct decision.
                                         
                                         One, because obviously Chelsea is a big rival.
                                         
    
                                         We do not want to do that. But I think especially seeing, and we'll get into it in terms of Arsenal and the characters in their team,
                                         
                                         but McCabe I mean
                                         
                                         she's just top character there even if she's not playing as much currently the significance of
                                         
                                         selling her to your rival let alone someone like McCabe in the dressing room you know you've sort
                                         
                                         of already lost Jordan Nobbs who again someone who wasn't playing that regularly but still
                                         
                                         is such a big character in that dressing room so So a bit cheeky, a bit cheeky from Chelsea,
                                         
                                         but then also can't really call them that cheeky
                                         
                                         when Arsenal have gone and done the same thing really to United.
                                         
    
                                         But yeah, I think right decision all round.
                                         
                                         Yeah, cheeky better than random, I think.
                                         
                                         It's not quite random when you think about
                                         
                                         what Katie McCabe would be able to do for Chelsea.
                                         
                                         But it kind of ended up being a really exciting transfer window,
                                         
                                         which we don't have in January that often.
                                         
                                         What do you all make of the increased attention on all of it, Susie?
                                         
                                         Yeah, like transfer windows, it's rare that they're particularly exciting
                                         
    
                                         in women's football, I would say, because so many kind of leave
                                         
                                         and come and go on threes and the introduction of growing transfer fees and I'd say the the increased intensity in the
                                         
                                         rival between top sides as well is adding a little bit of spice to things obviously the
                                         
                                         world cup is a big player too you know when you see Beth England, Jordan Nobbs, Lucy Staniforth
                                         
                                         all make moves to look for first team football then you know you've got a like much more
                                         
                                         interesting spread of teams benefiting from some big names moving and we're already seeing the
                                         
                                         fruits of that labour as we've talked about so yeah like real real exciting window I like one
                                         
                                         of the things that I think that gets a little bit overlooked amid the Russo chat is that I think Arsenal have actually had a pretty good window.
                                         
    
                                         You know, Victoria Pullover, Catherine Call and Sabrina D'Angelo, you know, they're decent signings.
                                         
                                         And they're also ones that look to the future a little bit.
                                         
                                         But I mean, I think their signings for next season more than anything, given their age and the time it's going to take them to properly settle into WSL.
                                         
                                         And yes, Arsenal need to win for now.
                                         
                                         But I think when you've got Beth Mead and Viviana Mead a bit injured,
                                         
                                         you look at any team in the top flight
                                         
                                         and you take players of that calibre out of the equation
                                         
                                         and you're unlikely to win a trophy.
                                         
    
                                         So if Arsenal finish trophy-less, there's an explanation there.
                                         
                                         It's not like it's just completely random.
                                         
                                         And yes, they didn't sign anyone in January,
                                         
                                         as in sign a big striker in January,
                                         
                                         but they have built for next season
                                         
                                         and they just need to pull in a player of that calibre in the summer.
                                         
                                         So I don't think all is lost if they don't win a trophy.
                                         
                                         And then, I mean, yeah, like really exciting transfer window, like you say.
                                         
    
                                         There's some big players moving around.
                                         
                                         I thought Leicester's signings were excellent on the weekend
                                         
                                         and, you know, made a big difference to that game and their performance.
                                         
                                         And we've seen some real, real talent come into the league as well
                                         
                                         from the US in Brighton as well too.
                                         
                                         What do you think about the increased eyes on the transfers, Robin?
                                         
                                         It felt as if everybody kind of got swept up.
                                         
                                         And I'm always really, you know, I don't get too excited about the transfer window.
                                         
    
                                         You know, as a journalist, I roll my eyes with all the speculation going on and, you know, agents feeding lines left, right and centre.
                                         
                                         But what did you make of it?
                                         
                                         I'm similar, actually.
                                         
                                         I'm like, just tell me when they've signed.
                                         
                                         I don't really look at rumors and all that.
                                         
                                         I find it very, very tedious.
                                         
                                         But I think the fact that it was kind of clubs,
                                         
                                         the thing that really piqued everyone's interest,
                                         
    
                                         it was rival clubs in the same division
                                         
                                         trying to pinch each other's players.
                                         
                                         That's the real soap opera drama of it
                                         
                                         that really got things interesting.
                                         
                                         But it's just great that the you know, the increased coverage generally,
                                         
                                         I think, you know, on Sky Sports,
                                         
                                         they had a picture of Russo alongside,
                                         
                                         you know, Enzo Fernandes.
                                         
    
                                         And that's great.
                                         
                                         You know, people were genuinely interested
                                         
                                         in the sort of saga of that.
                                         
                                         So I think just in terms of the coverage,
                                         
                                         despite finding it slightly annoying,
                                         
                                         generally in transfer talk,
                                         
                                         it's all good if it's alongside sort of you know the
                                         
                                         big money moves of of the Premier League although it does again it kind of just shows I mean that
                                         
    
                                         half a million pounds for Alessio Russo and um just Chelsea men's general spend on just one player
                                         
                                         still uh still quite a quite a chasm there. Yeah, terrifying.
                                         
                                         After all that deadline day excitement though,
                                         
                                         the last thing any of us, I think,
                                         
                                         probably expected was for the two clubs at the centre of all the drama
                                         
                                         and the soap opera to play out goalless draws.
                                         
                                         Although maybe we did expect that
                                         
                                         after what we've just said.
                                         
    
                                         Arsenal held by West Ham on Sunday night
                                         
                                         while United couldn't get the better of Everton
                                         
                                         earlier on in the day.
                                         
                                         Susie, we'll start at the Chigwell Construction Stadium.
                                         
                                         How much of Arsenal's performance do you think comes down to not getting that striker?
                                         
                                         I mean, 21 shots without a goal sort of speaks for itself, doesn't it?
                                         
                                         It's a big blow. I think I said last time we were on that I think that the lack of a real world-class centre-forward
                                         
                                         would show in the games against the big teams after the draw with Chelsea.
                                         
    
                                         It's pretty bad that it's now showing against teams a little bit further down the table.
                                         
                                         You have that many opportunities.
                                         
                                         And I know Jonas said afterwards, you know, I'd be more worried if we weren't creating but in the
                                         
                                         context of the fact that they've got this group of forwards that are good enough to score and
                                         
                                         aren't scoring is for me a bigger problem you know it's not like a one-off it's not they need time to
                                         
                                         gel these are players that have been playing a part in this team for a while now Stina Blackstinius
                                         
                                         Caitlin Ford, Frida Manham's goals have dried up,
                                         
                                         Lena Hertig, when she gets on, you know, just can't get the ball on target. And they're huge
                                         
    
                                         problems. And for me, they should be incredibly worried. I mean, he's probably not going to come
                                         
                                         out and go, oh no, yeah, I'm really worried about my strikers. They're doing terribly.
                                         
                                         But yeah, like I said, the lack of an an out and out like a centre forward where the ball pulls at their feet
                                         
                                         and you think they are going to score um like you just think they are not going to miss like they
                                         
                                         don't have that kind of player they have they have players that the ball comes to them and you think
                                         
                                         well this could go either way likely uh likely one way and not the other. The other being the back of the net.
                                         
                                         So for me, it's like the glaringly obvious problem.
                                         
                                         Obviously, Mackenzie Arnold was decent in the West Ham goal,
                                         
    
                                         but I also think that a lot of the saves weren't that hard to make.
                                         
                                         It was a similar problem against Chelsea.
                                         
                                         The shots on target were often very, very near the goalkeeper.
                                         
                                         So for me, that's the bigger problem.
                                         
                                         They just need to keep their strikers on the training pitch,
                                         
                                         firing the ball at the net and avoiding the goalkeeper.
                                         
                                         I mean, that's as simple as it is, isn't it?
                                         
                                         But they wear bright colours.
                                         
    
                                         Why would you not just kick the ball right at them?
                                         
                                         I was going to ask you this, Marva, because it's an interesting debate of where you put this game
                                         
                                         in terms of the spectrum of West Ham being good to keep Arsenal out and Mackenzie Arnold shining
                                         
                                         in particular, as Susie said, or Arsenal just being a little bit wasteful and failing to put
                                         
                                         West Ham under enough pressure. Yeah, I mean, I'll go for the cliche of it's a bit of both, really, because I think, like
                                         
                                         Susie said, Mackenzie Arnold, great game, but there were too many opportunities that
                                         
                                         she shouldn't have had a great game for that. They should have sorted it past her. I think
                                         
                                         Marnham had two early on in the first half, which were just clear goal opportunities.
                                         
    
                                         But I thought West Ham played, they knew what they wanted to do
                                         
                                         they definitely knew what they wanted to do I think the first half they were a bit more daring
                                         
                                         showed a bit more threat on the counter-attack and then the second half they were like we don't
                                         
                                         we don't need to do this anymore let's just try and get that that one point um which they did
                                         
                                         successfully and you can't knock them for that so I think they started their game plan very very well
                                         
                                         I thought Sissoko had a had a very good game and Arnold too but yeah Arsenal it's getting to that point now where I think even if
                                         
                                         they had their their best players there it's a point in the season where you need everyone to
                                         
                                         step up and it's mentality wise still a difficult thing for even those at the very top to be like
                                         
    
                                         right we're in a title battle now we've seen Chelsea even just seeing Chelsea at the very top to be like, right, we're in a title battle now. We've seen Chelsea. Even just seeing Chelsea at the top of the table is scary
                                         
                                         because they're not going to let that go.
                                         
                                         So let alone for those sort of players who aren't really at the top,
                                         
                                         not only do they have to step up and step into the boots of Miedema and Mead,
                                         
                                         but they've also now got to do that extra work
                                         
                                         of really stepping up for the title challenge.
                                         
                                         And that's not an easy thing to do for the top players,
                                         
                                         let alone those who are sort of not quite at the top yet either.
                                         
    
                                         Yeah, Arsenal have a massive month coming up as well, Robin.
                                         
                                         They play Manchester City twice this week.
                                         
                                         Continental Cup semi-final on Wednesday, then the league on Saturday.
                                         
                                         They've now drawn Chelsea in the FA Cup fifth round at the end of the month as well.
                                         
                                         What do you think the expectations for Jonas Eidevall and his team are right now? Well, this is the thing. I mean, they could realistically be out of both domestic
                                         
                                         cups and that would be pretty tough to take given the start they made to the league season at least.
                                         
                                         Marv put it beautifully. It's mentality with finishing. Miedema looks like she's never felt
                                         
                                         any pressure in her entire life.
                                         
    
                                         She's just like so casual.
                                         
                                         And that's why she puts these goals away so easily.
                                         
                                         Whereas it's almost like, because I have no doubt they're technically good enough to be scoring more goals.
                                         
                                         It feels like it could be a sort of almost a pressure thing,
                                         
                                         because especially now we're getting to that stage of the season where Arsenal were playing last and they saw that Man United slipped up a little bit and Chelsea you
                                         
                                         know they could have so they kind of had to win they had to win they can't drop points
                                         
                                         against West Ham and and and they they didn't win so yeah it's it's a tough tough old time and this
                                         
                                         is where Jonas Edevald really got around his money he's got a kind of it's I don't think it's it's a tough tough old time and this is where Jonas Edevald really got to earn his
                                         
    
                                         money he's got a kind of it's I don't think it's to do with tactics or how good they are as
                                         
                                         footballers it's almost kind of a psychological thing they've got to believe that they can put
                                         
                                         pressure on Chelsea but and yeah I think Susie's right like I I kind of bought the I'm not worried
                                         
                                         we're creating chances when it was against Chelsea but that's twice now in the WSL that that's happened.
                                         
                                         So it seems like there's becoming more of a pattern, which is slightly concerning.
                                         
                                         Yeah, psychologically could have been worse for Arsenal though, but they already knew that Manchester United had dropped points earlier on in the day.
                                         
                                         So it didn't dent them perhaps as much as it could have done. Mark Skinner's side played out a goalless draw with Everton. How big is this result Susie
                                         
                                         when we're looking not just at the title race but also the hunt for Champions League? Oh huge I mean
                                         
    
                                         it opens the door for Manchester City right and like they have been sniffing up the table and
                                         
                                         around the edge of the Champions League uh for the majority of the season
                                         
                                         now after their like early starter and looked really good um at the weekend as well again
                                         
                                         like really building up some consistency you know no changes in january that you know kind of
                                         
                                         would have potentially disrupted the momentum of what was a pretty turned over team in the summer so
                                         
                                         like if I'm Man United I'm looking over my shoulder as much as Mark Skinner tries to say he's
                                         
                                         you know only focused on them and only focused on their results you know they have never finished
                                         
                                         above Man City and I think it's going to be a really really exciting end of the season in terms
                                         
    
                                         of Champions League spaces perhaps more than the title race now because once Chelsea get a
                                         
                                         stranglehold at the top they just don't don't relinquish it for anything so yeah like for me
                                         
                                         you know you've got obviously City playing Arsenal twice as well that is going to swing I would say
                                         
                                         likely momentum in City's favour in terms of Champions League places and then you've
                                         
                                         got a straight fight out between them and United for second and third and I think that will be
                                         
                                         a very very exciting battle. Yeah most definitely and is there a bit of increased pressure perhaps
                                         
                                         on Manchester United Robin bearing in mind they've chosen to keep Alessia Russo and you would think
                                         
                                         that that would then give them the edge in all of the ambitions that they have this season.
                                         
    
                                         Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
                                         
                                         I mean, the fact that they've kept her.
                                         
                                         Again, people were kind of saying, oh, you know, what's her state of mind?
                                         
                                         I don't get the impression this would affect her at all because I don't think she's unhappy there.
                                         
                                         You know, she might be thinking about what she's going to do next perhaps but I don't think her focus would have would have waned
                                         
                                         you know I think for this one I think they were just a bit unlucky because they they battered
                                         
                                         they absolutely battered I mean credit to Everton they the new managers clearly got them much more
                                         
                                         organized and that's a credit to them but again a, a bit like Arsenal, Man United had a close call
                                         
    
                                         against Reading, didn't they? Took a worldie from Williams to come off the bench. So, you know,
                                         
                                         just signs that maybe the goals are starting to drop a little bit. And again, yeah, I mean,
                                         
                                         this is a test of their character because, you know, they were top of the league. That win
                                         
                                         against Arsenal at the Emirates made, you know, they were talking about the title, whereas now
                                         
                                         suddenly, just this weekend,
                                         
                                         and we're talking about,
                                         
                                         are they going to make the Champions League?
                                         
                                         I mean, it's really exciting for us.
                                         
    
                                         But yeah, this is a test of United's character
                                         
                                         because this has happened before, hasn't it?
                                         
                                         They've started well in seasons
                                         
                                         and then just dropped off towards the end.
                                         
                                         So can they stay the course?
                                         
                                         It's the big question.
                                         
                                         I just don't understand why they're not making
                                         
                                         more changes as well.
                                         
    
                                         Like, they've got a really decent bench, but they're sticking very rigidly to this this Serena Vigman style starting 11
                                         
                                         but a season is a really long time and you know they're clearly I think it was there more than
                                         
                                         Arsenal 25 shots on target or something like that but like clearly there's um you know issues there
                                         
                                         so so why aren't you turning to your bench to sort of lift that?
                                         
                                         Obviously, they brought on Nikita Paris and Rachel Williams,
                                         
                                         but they're sort of tried and tested WSL players
                                         
                                         who, you know, aren't necessarily your game changers,
                                         
                                         although Rachel Williams did do that last week.
                                         
    
                                         But, you know, in terms of like, you know,
                                         
                                         Boa Risa, Team Cara, Cascarino, you know, new signings,
                                         
                                         like why aren't we seeing more of them?
                                         
                                         That's my big question.
                                         
                                         And I think a lot of the fans are sort of clamouring for that,
                                         
                                         to see some of those players coming on.
                                         
                                         You know, you look at Arsenal,
                                         
                                         they made like four or five changes at the weekend,
                                         
    
                                         really delved into their bench to try and find that result.
                                         
                                         Man United aren't really doing that so much
                                         
                                         and are very much sticking with that 11.
                                         
                                         And I just don't think you can necessarily do
                                         
                                         that across the course of an entire season. Yeah it's a really interesting point. Marva I know
                                         
                                         you're desperate to talk about Everton although you did nod along when Robin was saying that
                                         
                                         Manchester United perhaps should have won that and perhaps it wasn't your biggest result of the
                                         
                                         weekend as an Everton fan but all in, a good weekend to be a toffee.
                                         
    
                                         Bearing in mind that they lost 3-0 in the reverse fixture,
                                         
                                         how much of a mark does this show,
                                         
                                         how far Everton have come under Brian Sorensen?
                                         
                                         Yeah, definitely.
                                         
                                         I mean, battered may be slightly harsh.
                                         
                                         I think we had a slight chance to win it even at the end,
                                         
                                         but definitely I would like to see the XG stats on that
                                         
                                         because I think, yeah, in that sense we did get battered.
                                         
    
                                         But it's still a massive improvement from the reverse fixture
                                         
                                         because even in terms of when we tried to counter,
                                         
                                         we had a plan, we knew what we were doing.
                                         
                                         I think the first 15, 20 minutes was a really good game.
                                         
                                         The whole game was really good actually,
                                         
                                         but the first 20 minutes was really competitive between both teams we held the ball
                                         
                                         well when we did get the ball as the game went on we started to maybe get tied legs and sort of give
                                         
                                         away easy easy mistakes really to to Man United who didn't punish us they did sort of hit the post
                                         
    
                                         and then come very very close multiple times but yeah I think we can still be proud of that performance.
                                         
                                         And that's the next step up for us.
                                         
                                         What I thought this season was going to be for us was kind of being the best of the rest where we could.
                                         
                                         Having it a little bit, you know, it's not necessarily winning every game,
                                         
                                         but kind of since that defeat to West Ham at the beginning of the season,
                                         
                                         we have won pretty much every game against the best of the rest which was surprising for me to see and then
                                         
                                         going that extra step now of can we get a few points off of the top three the top four
                                         
                                         um I thought we came quite close against Man City um in that 2-1 although again probably wasn't
                                         
    
                                         really deserved but we've we've just we're starting to stay in games more
                                         
                                         and I think once you when you're staying in games there's always a chance at the end like we saw
                                         
                                         with Jess Park who if she had just shot rather than try and round the goalkeeper that would
                                         
                                         have been three points for us I was screaming head in my hands but um it was still really
                                         
                                         encouraging signs from from Somerset's team here yeah and like Courtney Brosnan as well like
                                         
                                         stepping up
                                         
                                         and putting in
                                         
                                         performance like that
                                         
    
                                         whilst Emily Ramsey is
                                         
                                         unable to play against
                                         
                                         her parent club was
                                         
                                         huge too. I mean,
                                         
                                         they've got some real
                                         
                                         goalkeeping talent in
                                         
                                         their ranks.
                                         
                                         Yeah, going to be
                                         
    
                                         interesting to see.
                                         
                                         We've talked for quite
                                         
                                         a while about what
                                         
                                         Everton can do in the
                                         
                                         future. Perhaps this is
                                         
                                         those green shoots
                                         
                                         coming back up again.
                                         
                                         Right, that's it for
                                         
    
                                         part one. In part two, we'll talk about Chelsea's nervy win over Spurs
                                         
                                         that put them top of the table,
                                         
                                         as well as checking in with the rest of the WSL
                                         
                                         and the Championship.
                                         
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                                         Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly.
                                         
                                         Tottenham 2, Chelsea 3.
                                         
                                         Chelsea going clear at the top of the league,
                                         
                                         but had to get through a few nervous moments first of all.
                                         
                                         Not the first time we've said that this season.
                                         
    
                                         They went 1-0 up thanks to Jess Carter's header.
                                         
                                         But Bethany England fresh from getting engaged.
                                         
                                         Congratulations. Scored.
                                         
                                         Didn't celebrate the equaliser. Classy individual.
                                         
                                         Lauren James' individual excellence,
                                         
                                         followed by Guru Wrighton going through one-on-one,
                                         
                                         giving Chelsea a 3-1 lead. But still time for Nicola Kaciuska to pull one back to make it 3-2.
                                         
                                         It felt, Susie, as if this match kind of stole all the goals
                                         
    
                                         from the rest of the games of the weekend.
                                         
                                         Back-to-back 3-2 results for Chelsea
                                         
                                         after they struggled past Liverpool in the FA Cup as well.
                                         
                                         They're usually defensively solid.
                                         
                                         Is this becoming a bit of a problem for them this season?
                                         
                                         I mean, it has been a problem for them all season in that they've not really got a completely settled back line.
                                         
                                         I don't think Adishabu Cannon has properly settled in in the way maybe they perhaps would have hoped.
                                         
                                         And I think that perhaps speaks to how little defending defenders have to do at Lyon.
                                         
    
                                         But I thought it was interesting that it was a completely changed
                                         
                                         back line for this game well not completely changed but a real shifted around back line
                                         
                                         for this game you know you've got Jess Carter and Niamh Charles as full backs you've not got
                                         
                                         Magda Ericsson in there they're trying to find their best back line and I think that is why they
                                         
                                         bid for Katie McCabe because they've not really got any sort of,
                                         
                                         I mean, I'm pretty sure Katie McCabe prefers playing further forward,
                                         
                                         but they've not really got any sort of natural fullbacks
                                         
                                         that really fit into that team of sort of world-class quality
                                         
    
                                         in the way that Katie McCabe provides
                                         
                                         and the fact that Magda Ericsson has been playing less often this season
                                         
                                         speaks to that.
                                         
                                         The frustrating thing is that
                                         
                                         they just are so efficient regardless of uh whether they're not looking particularly great isn't it
                                         
                                         like I mean another win um when they're not playing their best and there's just a relentlessness
                                         
                                         about Chelsea that is is frustrating for fans of any other team in the league
                                         
                                         where it's a mentality thing isn't it they just they just always believe that they're
                                         
    
                                         going to win and they're going to score like quite US style mentality I think what's worse
                                         
                                         Susie is that they they kind of give you a bit of hope don't they by giving up stupid goals and
                                         
                                         you're like oh maybe they have got a chink in their armour and then no they don't they, by giving up stupid calls? And you're like, oh, maybe they have got a chink in their armour
                                         
                                         and then, no, they don't.
                                         
                                         It's like they do it on purpose, this Chelsea team.
                                         
                                         But they do it every time.
                                         
                                         It's almost like we're on this call, aren't we?
                                         
                                         We all resigned now because that's it, isn't it?
                                         
    
                                         Oh, yeah.
                                         
                                         They'll have maybe a few nervy moments within individual games,
                                         
                                         but we think that's it now, don't we?
                                         
                                         Because Chelsea just know
                                         
                                         how to see this out we do because of their history you can't help but not but equally this game and
                                         
                                         others that they've had this season show that they've got frailties yeah but they do this they
                                         
                                         do this they tease you and then they end up winning this is what happened it's the hope that
                                         
                                         kills you exactly but I actually they when I looked at how many clean sheets they've had this season,
                                         
    
                                         I don't have it to hand, but it's really not that many.
                                         
                                         I think they have been much more easy to score against generally.
                                         
                                         But unlike, you know, especially this weekend,
                                         
                                         Arsenal and Man United, they have forwards, not just forwards,
                                         
                                         just pretty much anyone on that team can score.
                                         
                                         And they have that ruthlessness and that, you know, they're just clinical.
                                         
                                         So, yeah yeah it's
                                         
                                         almost like we can close the book now it's another yet another title for Chelsea unfortunately I know
                                         
    
                                         we like to big things up but um I can't see them letting this go I can't tell you the number of
                                         
                                         clean sheets off the top of my head but they've conceded 11 goals Manchester United and Arsenal
                                         
                                         only conceded six each so yeah they're quite a way behind in
                                         
                                         terms of their defence and solidity we've got to give some time though to talk about Lauren James
                                         
                                         Marva six goals this season in all competitions it was a it was another beaut of an individual
                                         
                                         effort although Emma Hayes just never lets her get too much praise does she she's always
                                         
                                         always just got to say yeah but she's still got work to do do you think that's unfair or has she
                                         
                                         has she got a point I would be amiss to criticize Emma Hayes and her her managing and coaching
                                         
    
                                         style so I think she she knows how to get the best out of her players and that's probably how to get
                                         
                                         the best out of Lauren James I mean she's so young still you kind of forget when you watch her how young she actually is and she's just
                                         
                                         incredible to watch I do love that Emma Hayes particularly said about her tracking back
                                         
                                         I think the um the the last goal as well you could argue that that if if they had tracked back more
                                         
                                         than that wouldn't have happened and like we said this it's been where they've you know been I don't want to say failing but more so than than other aspects of
                                         
                                         their game is letting in goals but Lauren James is just incredible like her ability to maneuver
                                         
                                         the ball while still staying so strong and physical and then have the finished product as
                                         
                                         well is just actually incredible I think she's she's going to be possibly the best player in the world.
                                         
    
                                         I don't think she's far from it.
                                         
                                         In that Arsenal-Chelsea game where it was a really cagey game,
                                         
                                         but any moment Lauren James got on the ball,
                                         
                                         the whole Emirates was just sort of on the edge of their seat
                                         
                                         waiting to see what she would do.
                                         
                                         And it's a joy to watch.
                                         
                                         But yeah, I like that from Emma Hayes.
                                         
                                         Yeah, we talked earlier about effortless players.
                                         
    
                                         She's definitely an effortless player, it feels.
                                         
                                         She just glides across the pitch.
                                         
                                         Leicester City 0, Manchester City 2.
                                         
                                         Goals from Bunny Shaw and Chloe Kelly.
                                         
                                         A hard-fought 2-0 win over Leicester,
                                         
                                         thanks to some inspired saves from Janina Leipzig.
                                         
                                         Susie, we mentioned in part one
                                         
                                         that Arsenal have to play City twice this week.
                                         
    
                                         Where do you think they are in relation to Arsenal
                                         
                                         and the top of the table more generally right now?
                                         
                                         In a really strong position.
                                         
                                         Like there's consistency there.
                                         
                                         They've got the players that can get them goals
                                         
                                         when they need it.
                                         
                                         Like the fact that Chloe Kelly is off the mark
                                         
                                         for the first time in the league this season.
                                         
    
                                         I mean, I think she's spoken in interviews about not having been completely comfortable after coming back from injury and the World Cup and things.
                                         
                                         It's taken her a little bit of time to actually feel like she's properly fit and, you know, like ready again, despite the fact that she's been playing so regularly.
                                         
                                         But like her getting on the score sheet, huge, huge boost.
                                         
                                         But they just look like things are starting to click
                                         
                                         it's a hugely strong position i like at the moment in my mind they're finishing top three
                                         
                                         and it's arsenal they're missing out um given the loss of uh mid america's meat i just can't
                                         
                                         can't see arsenal being able to get through to city fixtures with enough goals to win those games.
                                         
                                         And I don't see City dropping many points in the final stages of the season.
                                         
    
                                         Can I just say, I looked up at the Zoom, just as you said that,
                                         
                                         and we all raised our eyebrows.
                                         
                                         It just reminded me of an advert that's on at the moment for a fast food brand.
                                         
                                         It's like, whoa.
                                         
                                         Interesting. We might have to clip that up Susie and and replay that at the end of the season from an Arsenal fan as well unbelievable oh I would be delighted if I'm jinxing it remember my predictions
                                         
                                         are terrible so you know this is this I mean it could all be a conscious plan but no it's it's
                                         
                                         really not I do genuinely think that.
                                         
                                         Leicester, though, Janina Leipzig on loan from Bayern Munich in January.
                                         
    
                                         She already looks like the best player in their squad, Robin.
                                         
                                         But even beyond that, really, it feels as if Willy Kirk's side are finally moving in the right direction.
                                         
                                         Oh, definitely. Just might be a little bit too late, unfortunately.
                                         
                                         But since coming back from, you know, the Christmas break,
                                         
                                         they've been markedly better and not just defensively.
                                         
                                         I mean, first of all, it just fills my heart
                                         
                                         when I see a goalkeeping performance in the women's game like that
                                         
                                         because she was sensational.
                                         
    
                                         She was so good.
                                         
                                         But yeah, I mean, and they had a couple of good chances.
                                         
                                         Hannah Kane denied twice by Ellie Roebuck.
                                         
                                         So actually they are starting to create chances.
                                         
                                         I just wonder, as I say, it just might be a little bit too late
                                         
                                         for them to make this charge.
                                         
                                         I think the only, because of, and we'll get onto it later,
                                         
                                         but Brighton getting that point and then they might be able to
                                         
    
                                         reel in Reading perhaps.
                                         
                                         But I mean, it was an impressive performance considering it was
                                         
                                         against a Man City side who were definitely, you know,
                                         
                                         they can go on these runs of just winning, winning, winning.
                                         
                                         And yeah, I mean, as I say,
                                         
                                         I think performance-wise it was good,
                                         
                                         but at this moment they need a bit more of that.
                                         
                                         And I just think, I mean, obviously they will have games
                                         
    
                                         where they see a bit more of the ball,
                                         
                                         but I think they had 26% possession.
                                         
                                         And when you see that little of the ball,
                                         
                                         it's going to be very hard when you're scored against
                                         
                                         to get anything out of it. But as I say, they'll have games where they that little of the ball, it's going to be very hard when you're scored against to get anything out of it.
                                         
                                         But as I say, they'll have games where they see more of the ball and maybe we'll be able to see a little bit more their attacking intent.
                                         
                                         Yeah, you can certainly tell that he's done a job since Christmas, as you say.
                                         
                                         And not long to wait to talk about Aston Villa Brighton, because it's next.
                                         
    
                                         Aston Villa won, Brighton because it's next Aston Villa won Brighton won an important point for Brighton
                                         
                                         as Julia Ulmer equalized following Kayleigh Green's own goal five points ahead of Leicester
                                         
                                         at the bottom they've got a game in hand as well Marva obviously Villa aren't the same level
                                         
                                         necessarily of Manchester United and Arsenal but how much does this result show everyone starting to feel the strain of the season perhaps? Yeah maybe but I think it's also across the board I think this
                                         
                                         weekend was a good one for goalkeepers as we saw in the Leicester game as well and I think
                                         
                                         when you raise that standard of goalkeeping where there's been a bit of a gap between the top clubs
                                         
                                         and the lower clubs in the league it means that games are just a bit
                                         
                                         more open for the taking because it's less that you know every every shot on goal is going to
                                         
    
                                         result into a goal but I think with the Villa game it was a case of it was just a lack of
                                         
                                         concentration at the end they Villa should have won that game and gifted gifted them really but
                                         
                                         it's a big point massive point for Brighton in the relegation battle
                                         
                                         I think every point is so so vital when it gets to this stage and so few games in the WSL
                                         
                                         that it's going to be a really tough one for Leicester to catch up to them now.
                                         
                                         Yeah five points ahead of Leicester as I said Brighton and actually that was the first point
                                         
                                         for Jens Schur since he took over from Hope Powell in terms of WSL points.
                                         
                                         What's different about his Brighton team, Susie, versus Hope Powell's Brighton team?
                                         
    
                                         It just looked like they've got an idea of what they're doing.
                                         
                                         I mean, and a bit of love for the game again.
                                         
                                         I think under Hope towards the end, they just all looked a little bit done.
                                         
                                         I think that's the biggest thing is like a new manager coming in
                                         
                                         shifting things around a little bit has just given them a little bit of fire back in their bellies
                                         
                                         um and you know that's not necessarily the fault of Hope Power that that was gone I think just
                                         
                                         towards the end of 10 years that when things aren't quite going to plan heads drop don't they
                                         
                                         a new manager can shift things they brought in some decent quality
                                         
    
                                         players as well like in January and I think you know having um players of real experience uh around
                                         
                                         a team like Brighton is a big help you know you look at Lydia Williams coming in from PSG or
                                         
                                         Brie Vasali who has obviously WSL experience and NWSL experience than the likes of Georgia Fox on loan from Chelsea.
                                         
                                         These are really talented, solid players that bring a level of solidity to the group,
                                         
                                         I would say, as a whole.
                                         
                                         Yeah, just a bit more of a plan and a bit of a better mentality, I would say.
                                         
                                         Interesting.
                                         
                                         Liverpool 2, Reading 0.
                                         
    
                                         Finally, Liverpool scoring two quick-fire goals to beat
                                         
                                         Reading, Missy Bocans and Kerry Holland, securing the three points from Matt Beard's side. That
                                         
                                         pushes them up to eighth, eight points clear of Leicester. And Robin, perhaps one of the
                                         
                                         more underrated January signings has been Fuka Nagano, who's slotted right into this Liverpool
                                         
                                         midfield looked really
                                         
                                         impressive and they actually recruited quite heavily in January can we see them pushing
                                         
                                         further up the table or is this about right for them? Probably about right for them for this season
                                         
                                         they just don't want a bit of a nervy finish I guess they just want to go about their business
                                         
    
                                         and you know pick up points against these sorts of teams and you know after
                                         
                                         the absolute battering they took it's been actually a fairly good good response they had a
                                         
                                         good six minutes against Chelsea that I saw before it was all frozen off they started well um perhaps
                                         
                                         they had slightly better boots than the other team. But yeah, I think they have recruited well.
                                         
                                         Matt Beard clearly has a lot of, with his previous sort of job
                                         
                                         as Boston Breakers manager, he's got a lot of contacts at the NWSL.
                                         
                                         So he recruits heavily from there.
                                         
                                         They're technically very good players.
                                         
    
                                         And I agree, Nagano looks very composed.
                                         
                                         And that's maybe what they needed after they've got quite a few young players
                                         
                                         like Missy Boe Kearns and all that so
                                         
                                         no a good win for them you know it could have been slightly different I think Emma Harry's
                                         
                                         hit the bar before they scored their first goal for Reading so you know it's fine margins but
                                         
                                         you know they'll take that three points and it's Reading who are the ones that might just be
                                         
                                         looking over their shoulders a little bit at Leicester. Yeah, it does feel like Kelly Chambers' side are kind of walking that tightrope at the moment, Marva.
                                         
                                         Only four points ahead of Leicester.
                                         
    
                                         Leicester have two games in hand,
                                         
                                         which is a big concern for Kelly Chambers.
                                         
                                         They also loaned Natasha Dowie to Liverpool,
                                         
                                         but have brought in their former academy player,
                                         
                                         Tania Alexander.
                                         
                                         It feels as if they could get,
                                         
                                         I mean, they're already, I was about to say they could get sucked into this very quickly.
                                         
                                         They're already in it, aren't they?
                                         
    
                                         Yeah, I think so. And way more so than Liverpool, not even just on points. But I think the manner in which they're losing games when they do, there's been a few where they either go ahead or they're in it.
                                         
                                         They look strong and then they just don't take those chances.
                                         
                                         And you saw it with this game as well,
                                         
                                         where both teams were kind of evenly matched for a good part of the game.
                                         
                                         And it's just that finishing quality right at the end.
                                         
                                         And when you're somewhat in a relegation battle,
                                         
                                         they're the kind of chances you need to take,
                                         
                                         especially against the sort of lower mid-table teams,
                                         
    
                                         because of course you're going to struggle against anyone
                                         
                                         sort of above sixth place, really.
                                         
                                         So you've got to be trying to make the most of those chances.
                                         
                                         But in the same breath, obviously, Leicester have the bigger job to do.
                                         
                                         So they should be OK, I think.
                                         
                                         But they are, them and Brighton are definitely the ones in it.
                                         
                                         And I think Liverpool are very much out of it now.
                                         
                                         And shout out to that Megan Campbell monster throw.
                                         
    
                                         That is always an absolute joy to watch, isn't it? I love any kind of monster throw. I just I wish I had the shoulder energy
                                         
                                         myself to be able to do it. I think I would just the ball would fall back behind my head when I
                                         
                                         tried to give it any momentum whatsoever. Well, one of those three teams potentially could be in
                                         
                                         the championship next season.
                                         
                                         And I tell you what, they'll have a tough job getting out of it because it's been so competitive this season.
                                         
                                         This weekend, Charlton needed a 97th minute winner from Arsenal Academy product Alex Hennessy to beat Coventry.
                                         
                                         Bristol City dropped points in a goalless draw at Blackburn.
                                         
                                         It's catching, isn't it? These goalless draws.
                                         
    
                                         It's getting so tight at the top.
                                         
                                         London City Lionesses bounce back from their FA Cup loss to Tottenham
                                         
                                         to stay at the summit with a 3-1 win over Sunderland.
                                         
                                         And the top two, Bristol City and London City Lionesses,
                                         
                                         play each other in that rearranged fixture on Wednesday night,
                                         
                                         which could put the momentum shift one way or the other.
                                         
                                         Meanwhile, a Jade Pennock hat-trick helped Birmingham
                                         
                                         to an impressive 4-0 win
                                         
    
                                         away at sixth place.
                                         
                                         Lewis Southampton beat Crystal Palace 2-0
                                         
                                         and Jess Clarke scored an 89th-minute winner
                                         
                                         for Durham against Sheffield United,
                                         
                                         who are struggling just above Coventry
                                         
                                         at the bottom of the table.
                                         
                                         Right, from the Championship to the Champions League.
                                         
                                         The draw is on Friday.
                                         
    
                                         Chelsea and Arsenal find out their quarterfinal opponents.
                                         
                                         Susie, best and worst case scenario for both, what would you say?
                                         
                                         I mean, best case scenario for Arsenal is, and for any team I think that has won their group, is Roma.
                                         
                                         You know, a brilliantly talented team, but also a team that is let's say at the start of their
                                         
                                         journey um is probably the nicest way to put it like they are the weak team of the group
                                         
                                         in terms of worst case I mean any of the others a worst case scenario like against a German side, maybe Bayern Munich.
                                         
                                         Like, up against Georgia Stamway, they lack a fight.
                                         
                                         I would say that's probably worst-case scenario balance between them and PSG.
                                         
    
                                         For Chelsea, again, Roma, best case, worst case.
                                         
                                         Oh, yeah, probably Bayern as well.
                                         
                                         Like, Lyon have been patchy this season, so maybe perhaps you could see them edging past Lyon in the same way that Arsenal were able to get the better of them earlier on in the season. But yeah, probably the same, probably Roma and Bayern for both.
                                         
                                         Robin, you commentate on the Champions League. Are you excited about it returning? Oh, yeah, because it's all, I mean, every match-up is just such a,
                                         
                                         you know, it's heavyweight, isn't it?
                                         
                                         And you get the absolute best players on show.
                                         
                                         And it is a difficult one to call. I think because, obviously, we concentrate on our domestic lead
                                         
                                         in England quite a lot.
                                         
    
                                         We obviously focus on the sort of weaknesses.
                                         
                                         But you never know, Susie.
                                         
                                         You never know.
                                         
                                         I know Arsenal probably aren't in
                                         
                                         as best shape
                                         
                                         as they were
                                         
                                         at the start of the season
                                         
                                         because of the injuries
                                         
    
                                         they've had
                                         
                                         but we'll have to see
                                         
                                         I mean it'd be great
                                         
                                         if we have an English team
                                         
                                         go far
                                         
                                         in this competition
                                         
                                         that's just my one hope
                                         
                                         whether it's Arsenal
                                         
    
                                         or Chelsea
                                         
                                         we just like them
                                         
                                         to go forward
                                         
                                         because actually Susie
                                         
                                         could that be an issue
                                         
                                         if they don't
                                         
                                         I mean in terms of
                                         
                                         getting more
                                         
    
                                         Champions League places or losing one even is that an issue if they don't? I mean, in terms of getting more Champions League places
                                         
                                         or losing one even, is that an issue?
                                         
                                         I don't think it is at this stage.
                                         
                                         I think they're okay, but it is always a worry.
                                         
                                         We've only just got three, haven't we?
                                         
                                         Yeah.
                                         
                                         Yeah.
                                         
                                         You just wouldn't want to lose that one.
                                         
    
                                         No, definitely.
                                         
                                         Definitely it takes, well, although it introduces
                                         
                                         even more jeopardy, if you like, into the WSL.
                                         
                                         Marva, could Chelsea or Arsenal win the Champions League based on domestic form this season?
                                         
                                         I'm going to say no, but you never know.
                                         
                                         You never know.
                                         
                                         I think Chelsea, I almost liken Leon to kind of how Chelsea are in the domestic league,
                                         
                                         where, you know, they they start off they can start off
                                         
    
                                         a bit patchy but they have the mentality and they have the squad and they know what to do to then
                                         
                                         just just win it when they need to um and I sort of see that with Lyon in the Champions League I
                                         
                                         think it's going to be a tough one to beat them but what's great to see this year is that there
                                         
                                         are so many other teams competing I think that the level of the the European heavyweights as Robin said is
                                         
                                         really really improving I think Bayern are going to be a big one to watch um and so yeah I'm just
                                         
                                         kind of excited to see any of the big matchups but I think it might be a step too far for Arsenal
                                         
                                         although maybe the pressure's kind of off for them in that sense compared to Chelsea I think Chelsea
                                         
                                         it's not a secret as much as Emma Hayes might sort of lessen it slightly.
                                         
    
                                         But I think everyone knows that for them, they've won it all.
                                         
                                         They know how to win domestic cups.
                                         
                                         That's kind of old news for them.
                                         
                                         What they really want to go for is that Champions League.
                                         
                                         And I think the pressure's on them.
                                         
                                         Whereas for Arsenal, as we've said, the kind of pressure isn't on them for anything now.
                                         
                                         They've got their big two injuries.
                                         
                                         That's a nice excuse.
                                         
    
                                         And they can kind of just go in and enjoy themselves
                                         
                                         a little bit more I think yeah absolutely right listen we can go off and enjoy ourselves now for
                                         
                                         the day 8 30 look at that Susie Rack bang on boom do I get a gold star for you oh yeah you get four
                                         
                                         gold stars it means that I'm not going to be sprinting the school run and instead going to be
                                         
                                         walking briskly. Lovely. Enjoy.
                                         
                                         It's been a delight to see you, Robin Cowan.
                                         
                                         We need that play date in very soon.
                                         
                                         Oh, yes, please. Yes.
                                         
    
                                         We're going for our swimming lesson now, so pray for me.
                                         
                                         It's like trying to put a swimming suit on an octopus.
                                         
                                         It's not fun.
                                         
                                         I feel your pain.
                                         
                                         Why did I sign up for this?
                                         
                                         Marva, always a delight to see you.
                                         
                                         And I really would like to see you next time
                                         
                                         with another Toffees smile on your face.
                                         
    
                                         That's all we can hope for.
                                         
                                         We'll be back next week as the title race looks set to hot up
                                         
                                         even more as Manchester City play host to Arsenal,
                                         
                                         while we'll also be finding out on Friday
                                         
                                         who Arsenal and Chelsea have drawn in the Champions League quarter-finals.
                                         
                                         We'll also look ahead to the return of the Lionesses in the Arnold Clark Cup with Serena Wiegand announcing her squad later on Tuesday.
                                         
                                         The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver and Jesse Parker-Humphrey.
                                         
                                         Its music composition was by Laura Iredale.
                                         
    
                                         Our executive producer is Sal Ahmed.
                                         
                                         This is The Guardian.
                                         
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