The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Football comes home as Lionesses make history – Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: August 1, 2022

Faye Carruthers, Suzanne Wrack, Ceylon Andi Hickman and Jonathan Liew celebrate England’s success as they are crowned champions of Europe in front of a record-breaking crowd at Wembley

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starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. It's coming home. It's coming home. It's coming. Football's coming home. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly

is supported by Visa. Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers, outside Wembley, and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Yay! Take a look! Take a look! Take a look! That's it, that's all we've got on today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Yay! The sponsor of UEFA Women's Euro 2022. Visa knows competition is at its best when everyone truly has a chance to take part. Whether it's a player competing on a world stage or a small business taking control of their economic future,

Visa recognises that we'll only see the best of all of us when everyone participates. Their technology and tools help entrepreneurs turn small ideas into big businesses, wherever they are. Find out more at theguardian.com slash all hyphen win. I'm only joking. That's not all we've got on today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly, but we have made it to our hotel room come podcasting studio. We have voices, kind of, I think. But after 56 years and one day of hurt, Sunday the 31st of July 2022 is the day that football came home again.

In 1921, the FA banned women from playing on football league grounds. The game of football is quite unsuitable for females and ought not to be encouraged, they said. Well, tonight, Leah Williamson became the first England captain since Bobby Moore to guide this country to glory. And what an absolute delight it was to be part of it. And what an absolute delight to be in i never thought i'd say this a premier in bedroom with three of my favorite podding people two of

lying on the bed with microphones in front of them and one is drinking a can of pop shall we say um suzy rack how you doing fabulous that absolutely fabulous well i can't really think anymore or feel or yeah this can of ribena is going down really really nicely yeah just absolutely magic johnny lou listen you you've taken your shoes off to lie on that bed with Susie Rack. I'm impressed with you. I like your domestication. These are freshly laundered shoes. I don't want to trample all over them. Somebody might even have to sleep here tonight.

Salon, I am wearing. I'll give you a full title. Salon Andy Hickman. I'm wearing your Lotta Wubba Moy Away Lionesses Kit. I'm absolutely loving it. How are you feeling? I don't know if I have the words or the voice to communicate that, but I'm going to absolutely try my best for the next hour.

It's going already. Oh no, that doesn't bode well. I think if I talk like kind of on an in-breath, it's okay. But I've got extra strong strepsils in the bag. So you were one of the lucky ones because me Susie and Johnny had to witness that but working at the same time so you don't fully get that release or moment to think about it but you were there in the crowd as a fan what was it like for a lot of it incredibly tense like incredibly tense I think when we scored, you thought this was it. You thought like,

I sat there and thought we don't concede and we will, even if we were to concede, there's a chance. But then when we did concede, it felt like, geez, we might not actually do this. And I think that was potentially when we're going into extra time was a sense of this might not end in the way that we all want it to end. but I kind of had like an acceptance of that like whatever happens it's great but oh my god I think probably some of the most joyous occasions of my entire life I said this morning when I woke up I tweeted being like it's so weird knowing that this could be the best day of my entire life and you don't know whether that's true or not and then when the Chloe Kelly toe poke went in I was with some of my best friends people I've worked in football

with for the last five six years and we were just crying and screaming and jumping on each other and holding each other and it was yeah it was something I will never, ever forget. But also kind of weirdly, it's difficult to recall right now because it was so intense at the time. But I'm sure there are videos. So I look forward to watching those tomorrow. Well, that is kind of how it feels when football finally comes home. And, you know, people jest about that phrase. But when everybody was singing it at Wembley, got the full-on goosebumps I cry I mean it's not the first time I've cried in the last two days I'm not gonna lie I've had quite a quite an emotional

little roller coaster going on and actually whether or not you were watching on the telly listening on the radio or one of the lucky 90 odd thousand inside Wembley it has been the most incredible I'm gonna use the word I'm gonna bingo it myself journey I want to bring seminal moment back I'm saying that tonight was a I was gonna say fucking seminal moment but it really was sorry but my god so I actually celebrated I've got an egg on my head because I celebrated so badly I smashed my headphones into my head and I've got a lump I mean I mean we've never experienced this before but let's get some reaction from the Twittersphere shall we as if we should ever take anything from

the Twittersphere as read but you know some of these people are pretty important uh david baddiel home in fact it's come home a sentence i thought i'd never write i've gone thank you lionesses harry kane absolutely unreal scenes at wembley massive congrats to the amazing lionesses ella toon take a bow for that finish as well i mean we will go into that in a sec gary lineker football is a simple game 22 women chase the ball for 90 minutes and at the end, England actually win. Well done, Gary Lineker. Very clever. Congratulations, Lionesses.

Fabulous. To Geoff Hurst, European champions, unbelievably proud. And the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, sensational and incredible win, Lionesses. And the whole nation couldn't be prouder of you all. Wonderful to see history in the making tonight at Wembley. Congratulations. I don't even know how to put this into words. Salon has tried, Susie.

How do you do it? With great difficulty, which considering I have to put words on paper, is not ideal, really. I really struggled with the emotions of that game in the lead up to it I saw Sue Campbell and Kelly Simmons and you know people from the FA who have worked very hard for this this morning and we were all absolute wrecks I bawled my eyes out at full time properly sobbing into my hands hadn't filed my copy yet was not helpful situation and you know I followed this team for a very long time now and some of those players you know I followed this team for a very long time now and some of those

players you know I followed from when they were like quite young you know Leah Williamson I'm an Arsenal fan so before I was a journalist I was watching her as a teenager for Arsenal and then see her lift the trophy at Wembley major tournament final I've been in mixed zones where Ellen White has been sobbing her eyes out she was the first person to come through the mixed zone last summer at the olympics in tokyo after scoring the hat trick and then losing 4-3 to australia to be knocked out and you know was absolutely heartbroken red-faced like tears streaming down her face still and she came and spoke to us for a good five or so minutes and articulated that heartbreak really well and it's just incredibly emotional to see them not have those tear-stained faces in quite the same

way a little bit tear-stained but you know in a much much nicer way so yeah I'm very very very happy and feeling very very emotional partly as well because it means that you know the growth of women's football journalism will grow too um it will that, you know, the growth of women's football journalism will grow too. It will increase, you know, when the team grows and does well, the demand for coverage grows. And so it's huge for our industry too. Yeah, I can hear the fans outside as well still celebrating. And when we were walking to record the pod, me, Susie and Solon met up outside Box Park and just gave each other the most enormous hugs and then we came down to meet Johnny Lou outside who was waiting with his arms out wide for all the

hugs as well as producer Lucy and producer Jessie and you know the fans outside were incredible those guys that we spoke to right at the top were absolutely buzzing still outside enjoying it and actually in the tunnel Leah Williamson so after she'd done her interview with me and I was the only one left in the tunnel and Leah came out to do her final interview which was a sit down around the corner and she just looked at me and holding the trophy and she just went can you believe this Faye I can't believe this I went I can't believe it Leah she went I don't think I'm ever going to believe this and just walked off like literally yeah I mean it just gives me the goosebumps all over again and I did tell her that at the start of the interview you've had me in tears twice in the last

two days goosebumps now for goodness sake um goosebumps for you Johnny Lou how have you processed it tremendously emotional day and you know having covered you know all different kinds of sports events you know from like the london olympics to rider cups and ashes and champions league finals this is this is up there honestly not just for what it was and how it felt but what it means and this is a win that belongs to everyone obviously it's it's the nation and they're representing us but i think it belongs most of all to you know know, to people like Susie and Salon and the people who have been on this journey right from the start and who have kind of slogged their guts out. You're going to set me off again. Honestly, for years and years, you know, trying to get this game to a level and to an audience, to a platform that it deserved. And,

you know, having, having 87,000 fans at Wembley to watch that, it would have been unthinkable a few years ago. And it, it means so much to so many people. And, and they could have won this in 2005 and 2009 or 2013.

And it, it wouldn't quite have had the same impact to have this happen right now. When, you know, the women's game is thriving, when the top players are getting paid properly, when there is a market out there for women's football, and for them to do this now,

it's just so important. So I'm really pleased, but I'm more pleased for the people who have really earned this. Yeah, there's so many, aren't there? They're absolutely incredible. I mean, I bumped into Kelly Smith and saw Baroness Sue Campbell

gave her a big hug as I was leaving as well. And I don't think she's quite, it's quite sunk in for her yet either. And that's really important. But we've got to talk about the game itself. I mean, I kind of don't care. We've won. I don't really want to analyse it.

And Solon, you said to me as we kind of walked walked in don't even ask me tactically to analyze this game because that's what happens when you're like none of the 90 minutes and then the extra 30 minutes actually matter but let's start at the beginning because everybody was really confused right at the beginning of the match Alexandra Popp who we've, Poppy, as Kaz Karni calls her, the big threat for Germany. She's level on goals with Beth Mead for the Golden Boot. The biggest threat for the Germans.

She's out there warming up. She even takes part in the team photo. And then we get the news filtering through that she's got a hamstring injury in the warm-up and that's it, she's out. I mean, what kind of impact did that have on the team, Johnny? The way that Germany played, you would think probably not so much. I mean, emotionally, they seemed to deal with it pretty well. Pop herself looked utterly distraught on the bench and you really had to feel for her but as as the game went on there were

moments opportunities crosses in the box loose balls where you just felt if pop had been there that could have been a really different story and you know it's it's probably not the polite or appropriate thing to say so but it might have been the the point at which you know you start to think well maybe it's not germany's afternoon to lose somebody like like you know you start to think well maybe it's not Germany's afternoon to lose somebody like like you know someone as talismanic as Pop and you know I guess it's a final kind of injury misfortune for her in this tournament after after everything she's done here but you know to have that happen to you just minutes before the start of the game I mean I it's got to affect you and it's Germany's credit i think that they

managed to carry out their plan so well you know having having been through that kind of that blow yeah it was it was huge and actually um you spoke there suzy about ellen white coming out in tokyo to speak to everybody and alexandra pop came out having not played one minute of football and spoke to about six or seven outlets in post-match which is just incredible and she she looked it is that's exactly the word johnny class um and i felt so gutted for her but she clearly processed it professional and just you know went and did her job um which was which was amazing particularly after her journey with the euros as well yeah 120 ish caps yeah and this is her first euros she's missed a whole bunch through injury and then to finally be in this tournament to be in with a chance of the golden boot to have you know played your socks off totally made up for lost time and then to go out

moments before taking a penalty in the warm-up apparently it was she said in the interview to rule her out of the game I mean it's just devastating isn't it it's real real tough stuff yeah really is cruel um I'll tell you what wasn't cruel the booing of the referee in the first half that wasn't cruel in the slightest because she was bloody awful I'm so sorry I know we're supposed to you know look at it from a balanced point of view but what was going on Salon she was the female Mike Dean she was the female Mike Dean she literally was like I don't know I was trying to put myself in her shoes a little bit and I was thinking like the occasion is huge and you're so conscious of how you're behaving and what

decisions you're making it almost felt like she was too inexperienced that she felt like if she missed stuff, she would get under more pressure. So she called everything. And she wasn't even playing like the simple advantages. Like little tugs would happen or stuff. Balls would be played. Team in possession would have the ball and be able to be in quite a good position to keep going. And she'd blow it. And she'd then give like a this weird yellow card i think there was two yellow cards for england in a very quick succession yeah ellen white and georgia stanway in the first half

which neither of which to me obviously i've only watched it in a lifetime i haven't watched it back appeared as if they were yellow card offenses but they weren't the thing is she should have given two yellow cards to the germans for worse tackles than the two yellow cards that she gave to... Oberdorf could have been sent off after 40 minutes. I feel like she could have been sent off in the last game as well. No one really looked at it either. But yeah, I think for her, it was an absolute shocker. And there was so much rage amongst the people I was sitting around directed at that referee because it was

a really poor performance and it felt almost like I turned around and said to my mates who I who I play with and I said to them don't you think this is the most women's football thing ever we've had an exceptional tournament we have played football to the highest standard we've had brilliant officiating we get to the final and the game's going to be ruined by a shit ref because that's what it feels like sometimes when it's football like why do we get the shit refs i was like what's going on here if this is the reason why we don't do very well in this game i was like it can't be it just can't be so i was and that's not on her by the way that's on uefa yeah for appointing someone to that game who they've got step Frappar. Right. And I assume they kind of,

they made the appointments before the semifinals. That's the only explanation. Two good opportunities for Ellen White, Susie. And in the first half, it felt as if it was perhaps going to be one of those days where we'd been calling, or some people, I hadn't, and I know you hadn't either,

called for Alessia Russo to start, that perhaps that might have been the option. I mean either, called for Alessia Russo to start, that perhaps that might have been the option. I mean, look how tired Alessia Russo was by the end of that game, even by the end of the 90 minutes. I mean, could she have started the game and hung on for 120? I seriously doubt it. She was absolutely wiped. Ellen has been struggling to score clearly in the, you know,

kind of knockout stage of this competition. But she plays a role and she's got big game experience. And luckily, those misses didn't prove too costly in the end. But I still would be completely behind the decision to start her. I think it was completely right. Rousseau has been most successful off the bench, running at tired legs. If anything, I mean, obviously,

her and Ella Toon helped change the game a little bit, inject some energy. They got the first goal, but bringing them on in, was it the 58th minute or whatever it was, was a little bit earlier than Serena has in previous games. And I did wonder whether it was a little bit too early even because I think maybe it lost a little bit of the effectiveness at running at people.

I think that was in reaction to Martina Vosteklenberg's changes at half-time because that really invigorated the Germans, Johnny. It seemed as if England had the best of the first half, but at the start of the second half, the Germans were on top. Yeah, there was a period between 45 minutes and the goal, I guess, the England goal where Germany looked well on top, which has not been the way. I mean, England have generally started the second half very strongly in this tournament. I mean, just on Russo, I think that there's this growing trend in football, which is, I think, is only going to become more apparent when now we have five subs that the idea of having your starting 11 and a fixed starting 11 and having impact substitutes whose role is to play sort of 30, 40 minutes and that to be their kind of defined role, I think that's going to become more of a trend in the game where, you know, you already see it in things like Rugby Union where, you know, they replace the whole front row after 50 minutes and you have starters and finishers.

And England have really used that, like, brilliantly. White starts, Russo comes on and, you know, the tone and the feel changes and they can prepare for those roles. They can physically condition for them. So, you know, that's kind of a trend in the modern game that I think is going to continue. Yeah, I agree with you. And that super sub tag, you know, every player wants to start a game. But equally, if you know you can come on, it's how you finish it at the end of the day, isn't it? And those super subs came into their own, Susie, opening goal from ella toon that ball from kira

walsh for it was just beautiful wasn't it i mean for me and i uh preempted everything and started writing my um like writers review stuff uh for the paper um why would you do that we don't need to file till Monday and I picked Keira Walsh as my player of the tournament, I think. And I was thinking,

well, you know, her and Lena Oberloff are sort of vying for that prize and we'll see how I feel, you know, come the full-time whistle

at Wembley. But, yeah, I mean, I think she's been absolutely phenomenal and I remember in 2019 at the World Cup

she Johnny's just desperately trying to very very quietly Johnny's got the baby bell he just creeps across the room and I'm like how are you going to open that quietly some beautiful background noise

I did not think that through I did not think that through don't forget to take the wax off yeah so um i remember 2019 she um didn't have the best tournament in the world but going into that tournament she was very much like a first name on the team sheet for me so important to to england had a fantastic season at man city and then had a really bad tournament. I remember some of the journalists that hadn't really covered England that much or hadn't covered the Women's Super League in the press boxes in 2019 going, who is this player? Why is she even in this team? She's terrible. And I was going, no, she is fantastic. Something is not right here.

And then I interviewed her a few months after the tournament and she said you know she thought about quitting football the negativity really got to her she really struggled with the pressure of that tournament but she was finally sort of you know kind of had a lot of talks with a psychologist had learned to process it um was handling things a lot better had refound her love of football I mean you've seen it in this tournament she's You've seen why I thought she's first name on Team Street back there. You see why Nick Cushing, the former Man City manager, said she's the best player he's ever worked with. She is just so incredibly good at picking out the past that no one else sees.

And yeah, I mean, you saw it for that goal. And then what a finish. I mean, Ella Toon, calm as anything. I thought the moment had gone. I thought she'd taken a touch too many at first. And then she does that. Well, the angle that I was at, I thought it was going slightly wide. And it felt as if the ball hung in the air for an agonizingly long amount of time.

I also had my eyes on Beth Mead, who'd just come off on the far side. And she was limping around and then stood there watch shellatoon one-on-one with the keeper you're right there's a lot you listen we're all in the same room none of these we can't isolate mics every little bit comes up producer lucy just said it was okay after the first and then it was like can i can i just say is the only uh professional professional person in this room right now, I'm not drinking beer. Because you can't.

Literally take one. I can't. I can't drink beer. I can't drink it. I'm allergic to gluten. What about that rum on the way over, Faye? Oh, yeah. I might have had a rum on the way over.

Maybe. But Beth Mead was coming off and she was watching Ella Toon one-on-one stopped and then she went to celebrate started running and realized she was injured so stopped and started limping back behind the goal and then like gave me like a come on as she walked past me and then was trying to galvanize the the crowd because I thought the crowd were quite quiet at times oh definitely but I also want a little petition to rename a chip to a scoop. Ella Toon, she scooped the ball. It was like there was no chip there.

It was like she literally put her foot under it and scooped it over the goalkeeper. Is it weird that all I'm thinking about is chocolate chip cookies? Ice cream. And ice cream. So I think when Frank Kirby chipped the keeper, which was a chip, that was like a chip. Lotto, we were always a little doodle being like,

do you want some ketchup with that? Today's one is, do you want a flake with that, Ellatoon? It was a scoop, definitely. It's a very important distinction. I mean, not to get all football cliches about this, but the difference between a chip and a scoop is the spin. A chip has backspin. A scoop has dip on it.

Not to extend the confectionery metaphor,in a scoop has dip on it not to kind of extend the confectionery metaphor but a scoop has has as dip on it which is which is what got the ball under the crossbar and it actually it hit the net on the full if i remember rightly which is it's just perfect it was beautiful i watched it from behind the goal it was it was lush right we've literally only talked about one goal in this entire first part I mean we could be here all night let's very quickly think about how we all felt when that equalizer went in 10 minutes from time how did you feel Salon in the crowd because it just seemed to almost deflate the bubble yeah it was quite it was quite a deafening goal it felt like it just completely silenced us and I always look to the

reaction on the pitch when we can see something like that I think it felt more sad because you looked at the players and they looked really deflated with it I felt there was kind of a I think one or two of them were trying to gee each other up but it really looked like we were so close and we've just screwed it up there. But when they were travelling with the ball, I can't remember, the Germany winger, I was like, I literally said to the person next to me, this is it, this is a goal.

And we just looked so out of position and so caught and it felt like it was coming. And to be fair, Germany deserved something in that game. They made that incredibly difficult for us so if they hadn't scored a goal it probably wouldn't have felt fair on them but in the yeah the mood of the crowd at that point was incredibly deflated but I also think when the final whistle went there was a sense of we have been here before we have been at one all at full time and we can come back from this so yeah definitely a dullness but also

a sense of like we've just got to sit and ride this out and something will come here for us i think i felt like it was written in the stars that it was going to penalties i'm not going to lie i really did i don't know how anyone else thought about that i felt quite relaxed about it i mean no honestly it's because maybe it's because i haven't like lived the history of this team in the way that a lot of other people have but i don't know i just have so much faith in well in viegman but also in this group of players and and i think a lot of people who have been conditioned to watch the england men's team think well this is this is just going to be the same old story but this is

this is not you know know, I was looking around and I saw, you know, a lot of the players were distraught afterwards. They were kind of, but I saw Williamson. She just adjusted her socks and walked back to the centre circle. I think, okay, I think they've got this. And this team are not fated to live this. If we've learnt anything here, they're not fated to live the same history as the men's team they're not they're not fated to to live the

same history as the men's team they're different people and this is a different ethos and this is a different feel you know i look at the picture i don't see stephen gerrard on there i don't see joe hart this is something totally different i actually think that's really important and it's it's so easy to immediately compare the lionesses to the England men's team, which, you know, I think we all do it naturally because it's England because we all support England, but they are not the same. And this is what I have been so taken by throughout this tournament is that there is something about this England team and women's football in general, you could probably extract it too,

that is subversive. Like today it was England-Germany at Wembley in a final for something that really mattered. The script is written for us to lose and to lose on penalties. And what happened tonight was the England women subverted it. This tournament has been like the depiction of subversion. I was in a pub in Baker Street this afternoon before the game and any other pub on a cup final day for a European final at Wembley and it was just predominantly women and non-binary people just with drinks being nice to each other having fun and you kind of you walk down the street you'd be like

oh England shirts you can hear a bit of it's coming home in chants and you think I expect to see a lot of white middle-aged men singing that chant same thing happened on a coach took 30 girls to the semi-final I had 30 black girls singing it's coming home on a coach and took videos of it and I had people message me being like that was so weird like that was incredibly weird to see and feel that in an international tournament was all these black girls taking up space and singing and going mental for it's coming home when you expect it to be like middle-aged white men right and i think that's not not even a war song not not any no no 10 german bombers in this house we do not

do that it was such a joy not to hear that song today but that's what the beauty of this thing is it's like you create your own space you take up your own space you literally find your peoples and you make the space what you want the space to be and everyone who's been working in and around this game has been we want this space to be fun joyful supportive and inclusive and that is what we will create and that is what you saw tonight and it's represented on the pitch when they're like screw the narrative we don't want the narrative we're going to do our own thing I think that's exactly what Johnny was saying about and not being they're not the same thing they're a different thing and we have to respect that and we have to channel that and it's on the duty of us all now in the women's game to make sure we retain that and we don't lose that

as things get bigger that was beautiful and that was what my head said. But now you've all like very nicely said why you all felt so calm. I'm going to tell you why I didn't feel calm after the Germany goal. I just I felt like with Russo, Toon and Kelly already on the pitch and like them having been on the pitch for a little bit of time and Germany were really in the ascendancy at that point. We didn't really have any more options off the bench um you know Nikita Paris has barely played or hasn't played at all Beth England hasn't played if you're looking for more game changers that there's not really many there that have been tried and tested in this tournament so that was the thing that made me feel nervous after that that Germany goal was the fact that the game changers had come on, changed the game, got us that first goal,

and then Germany had scored and we didn't really have anything else left. Well, Chloe Kelly. Chloe Kelly toe poke. Chloe Kelly had something left. Chloe Kelly toe poke. Do you know what's the funniest thing about this goal? What a narrative for Chloe.

I actually said this to Chloe Kelly in the tunnel afterwards, because I'm sure if my producer was rolling over me, he'd have just had me screaming. Because of all the yellow cards and the ridiculous refereeing, my first instinct, as celebrating that goal, getting the egg on my head from my headphones, I was then going, don't take your shirt off! Don't take your shirt off!

And I was screaming at her. I was like, that's the last thing I want you to do, is get shirt off don't take your shirt off and I was screaming at her I was like that's the last thing I want you to do is get a yellow card did she get sent off did she take her shirt off she did she got yellow cards as long as she got booked I didn't know what for it was the brandy chastain moment talk about seminal moment that is it and all the girls were talking in the changing room about it she literally took it off whipped her shirt around her head and went to celebrate with the substitutes and actually you may see the picture tomorrow morning it's gonna be is it our brandy chastain photo brandy chastain brandy chastain said i see you chloe kelly 98 well done enjoy the three rounds of pints and

dinners for the rest of your life from all of england cheers i've never seen you like that so long as your head okay i just swiped me up i have a panic oh my god she's just seen it unbelievable so i she also she said it was totally instinctive that she did not think about it at all she just did it at that moment i was screaming what was funny she started to take it off she thought about it and she she just did it at that moment I was screaming what was funny she started to take it off she thought about it and she went I'm doing it anyway I've got I've got a painting in my living room of Brandy Chastain in that pose I have that painted my friend painted it for me gonna need an update that's why I need painting next that please put it on a canvas get it on my wall

would your friend be if you got out some chalk or some coloring pencil i was with him tonight i was with him tonight and i'm probably gonna win him after this you're gonna get you're gonna get a tattoo with me you've got a new painting to do please oh my god there's so many people getting tattoos you get you're gonna get one with me i'm getting a tattoo i'm getting a tattoo i don't know what yet but i'm getting i will not i am not a tattoo person and i will not be getting i've already got a lion tattooed on my back and everyone thinks it's a bit like England nationalist. I'm like, no, no, no.

There's other reasons for it. But tonight I've fully got it out. Like, I already love them. Got the lion already tattooed on my back. Oh, and shout out to Emma Sanders at the BBC who said at the start that if England wins, she's going to get a tattoo of Serena Vigman drinking a pint, which I then told to Serena,

who said she doesn't drink beer. She doesn't like it, but she likes rum and she likes Bacardi. And we asked her what she was on tonight and she said it was the Bacardi. Oh, that's a girl after my own heart. As if I couldn't love Serena Wiegmann anymore. I think you should get a tattooed photo.

I'm going to get, I'm not getting a tattoo. I'm not such a... i'm open to suggestions of what i should i will get one i always get a tattoo i think what we're gonna do not that much of a seminal moment though if you won't get a tattoo is it that i don't bow to peer pressure suzy rack um but i do think we should get all of the press pack who promised tattoos and got them to like stand there and show them off at some where it depends where they are I suppose on the body um but I mean the reaction when the final

whistle blew there was some crazy shithousery going on in the corner as you saw right in front of you uh salon but Lucy Bronze was slipping and sliding in the confetti. I did see a load of snow angels being made in the ticker tape, which was just delightful. Leah was crying, went over. I saw her hugging her mum. Millie Bright leading the walk around the stadium as well. Just Wembley was incredible. We could continue talking about this forever,

but I can see, bearing in mind they're right in front of me, both of my producers glaring at me as if to say, we talked about this for a long time now move on please so that is everything in part one in part two we'll be back to talk a bit more about what exactly this historic whim means but we are going to take a breather for a minute and leave it to a very special guest to round off this bit of the pod hello Max Rushen here from the guardian football weekly um keeping my voice down because four month old ian rushton is in the next room that was pretty amazing and actually i i wrote a piece in the paper this week and we talked about it on football weekly about how i didn't perhaps get as nervous or as anxious.

When the women are playing is when the men are playing. And whether that made me like a massive sexist or it's just I don't have a history with this team and this team have never let me down. Turns out that article was bullshit. And I was wrong because I was absolutely terrified. When England were 1-0 up after Germany equalised, when England were 2-1 up, those agonising waits, that brilliant eight minutes of keeping the ball in the corner,

so many brilliant performances of which your panel will explain much better than I would. And for the second time this weekend, I started crying, the first obviously being the last ever episode of Neighbours. And I do have a history with Neighbours. And I don't have a massive history with this England women's team. But they were brilliant. It was such a brilliant moment.

And, yeah, I was thoroughly moved. And I didn't know what to do when England lifted a major trophy. I didn't know what to do watching a final BBC montage of England winning. And it was just utterly brilliant. Back to Holy Faker, brothers. Thanks. Today's podcast is supported by Visa, a proud sponsor of UEFA Women's Euro 2022. But Visa are not only backing the highest levels of the women's game, they're also working around the world to help women and girls play football,

whatever their age or ability. Today, we're joined by Nazime, who took part in a football camp supported by Visa in Turkey. Thanks so much for joining me, Nazime, who took part in a football camp supported by Visa in Turkey. Thanks so much for joining me, Nazime. That camp that you were part of just sounded absolutely amazing. Can you tell us a bit about what happened on the day? Firstly, it was an unbelievable experience for all of us. And we just went to the camp and do some activities about football and also talk about gender equality for football. As part of that camp as well, you got to meet and talk to some of the players from the Turkish national team, I understand. What was that like?

We learned about their lives, their stories, and it was all inspirational for young girls to hear. So it gives us a motivation to go on that road. And how inspiring was that for you? I learned so many things about not giving up and it makes me to go on that road and say like nothing can stop you. Just finally what is your ultimate dream in football? Like I want to study law so I would go on that road and study sport law and also be a national player of Turkey and also prove that girls can do everything they want

and nothing can stop us. Absolutely. It sounds to me like you can do everything. Nazime, thank you for sharing your experiences with us. We look forward to seeing you at Wembley at the end of July. Thank you. I'm so thankful for all of you. Now on with the show.

Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. We've all taken a bit of a breath and a couple more swigs. A couple more tweets for you as well. Enia Luko, since 1966, it's come home for women's football in UK. We salute you. The dream's come true. The dream is here. Congratulations.

Unbelievably proud. Casey Stoney as well, European champions. Just let that sink in. Crying with so much pride right now. Thank you, Lionesses. You've changed the game forever. And Gabby Logan's sign-off on television,

which this is the first time I've seen this, if I'm honest. And I mean, pretty amazing. The Lionesses have brought football home. Now it's up to us to keep it here. They think it's all over. It's only just begun begun and that actually echoes what captain leah williamson was saying in a press conference suzy the other day and that is what is so important what exactly is this win it's a big question i'm not gonna lie what what is this

win gonna mean for women's football you set me off already in that press conference um i was like oh god i'm gonna have to ask a question i've had my hands up and now I can't even see through my eyes. Yeah, it's huge. And I don't think there was a loss today. Like, even if they had lost, they've done so much. They've put on such a show to get to this point. Everyone's attention's on it or even saying that you know there is something very powerful about collective mourning as well and with a world cup only a year away um and so much promise in this team that i don't think a lot of momentum would have been lost by loss but a win you just thought that's just going to be like astronomically bigger and that's what made me find it so difficult before kickoff to hold down tears and nerves and all of that kind of stuff careful kenny shields will be after you yeah i'm just getting a little bit over emotional um i need to like stamp on my ovaries or something like that

but yeah i mean it's extremely significant and neil willison put it very well like the impact of the fact that it's a women's team that brought it home after all of those years it's the impact on the dads and the mums watching that more than the little kids in a way that are just going to be so much more open to their kids playing football will be signing the little kids in a way that are just going to be so much more open to their kids playing football will be signing the little girls playing football will be signing them up to the local team I don't think we're fully going to really realize it until a few years down the line but um yeah it's really started something quite special yeah it really has and does it feel like the start of something special Johnny because Serena Wiegmann only took over 10 months ago,

which is incredible when you think about it. Got the World Cup coming up next year. And it does feel like the beginning for this squad. For this squad, certainly, it can be a new beginning for the sport in this country, but it does need a lot more and this is this is why i can't stand this this word inspiration which has been has been used so many times it's it's probably on a whiteboard in the dressing room still that the fa has put on there it is such a wishy-washy almost kind of dishonest uh way of describing um sporting legacy and you know you saw it at the london olympics that this idea that change in sport systemic change can be imposed from the top down by this exemplary thing

at the top that everyone is just so so enthralled by what what this team have achieved was not achieved through inspiration it wasn't achieved through like seeing something on the television and going, oh, I'd quite like to do that. It was through investment, facilities. You know, Chloe Kelly doesn't score that goal and she's not in that team unless she's experienced and benefited from, you know, high-class coaching. And put the work in herself.

And put the work in. And the very work in herself. the next generation will work it out for themselves it needs investment it needs investment in grassroots football in academies and in in charities like like like football beyond borders what salon works with working with young girls it has to come from the bottom up otherwise this whole opportunity is is going to be lost because you can't you can't impose change in sport from from the top down yeah i i mean i don't even know how to how to react off the back of that because it's absolutely bang on and for every cliche end of television you know thing it's actually as righty said before we have to drive it we have to force these people to make sure that the investment is coming and it's not just a bandwagon jump that's

brief it's followed all the way through and you'll see that firsthand salon as well and how do we even go about doing that i think first and foremost the fa deserve their credit they deserve their flowers right now because they set out to win this tournament with that team and they pumped the investment in that meant every single player who played tonight or scored tonight has been able to be professional. And that is a huge step change from some of the Linus legends we just bumped into, right? They never had that.

They never had the possibility that they could be full-time professionals and really just contribute to their success and the team's success. I think what for me was so important about tonight and the fact that if we lost, it would have been such a devastating thing was that the win, and this is, you know, unfortunate that it takes a win. We have to be successful to do it. But the Overton window shifts slightly. it means that the realm of possibility for women is different now every cab driver shopkeeper you know p teacher everyone you've ever met who said maybe made a quip i'm usually a man that women don't do this

now think women do do this because they've seen it and they've and it's something that's so celebrated across the world and i think i was crying so much at the final whistle because i was like this isn't just a win in 120 minutes misogyny exists in society in really micro ways like you get in a cab and you say you play football or you work in football and they go oh i don't really like women's football because i don't really do much and you're like that's bullshit like and I will show you that's bullshit but my word doesn't count for as much as what tonight just counted for so you kind of push instances of misogyny to the side of society and actually you become the guy that goes if you do say oh women really don't they're not very good at football then suddenly it's like well you're

the outcast because we all enjoyed tonight we all watched that together and we all celebrated that together there is also inherent properties of football in terms of what it does for girls as teenagers if you're a girl and you play football statistically you're more confident than any other girl who plays any other team sport that is a fact that came out in like 2012 i think uefa survey looked at team sports across the world. If you play football as a girl, you're more confident than a girl who plays another team sport. That is unlocking something about people. If we have now a generation of girls coming through and thinking, I can play football, therefore I take up space and I belong much more than I maybe thought I did if I didn't play football. That will send shockwaves through society

and allow women to completely take up space I think that for me is like why the win was so important tonight take up space I mean even when we're having to talk about that it it it angers me so much and I sent around to to the team that I've been working with throughout the tournament the quotes that Leah Williamson made yesterday in the match day minus one, and I'll just really briefly talk about them because they were really important, I think. I don't think, I know.

I've only ever been involved in this workplace in football, but I think in most workplaces across the world, women still have a few more battles to face and to try and overcome. I think that for every success that we make, for every change of judgment or perception or opening the eyes of somebody who views women as somebody with the potential to be equal to her male counterpart, I think that makes change in society. It's a powerful message that we have the power to in a typically male-dominated

environment. The strides that we take forward can impact everybody on that wider scale. I mean, she's 25 years old. That's terrifying to me in the first place that she's even coming out with that. But to me, I sat there and I thought, God, I wish when I was in my late teens, early twenties, that I thought that that was possible. And I know it sounds really silly and it sounds really cliched and it's something that we've kind of talked about going up, but it's so much more important than that and you know I have worked in misogynistic environments for the majority of my career and it shouldn't take something like this and there

will still be people who you know question women's place if you like in any way shape or form but hopefully this gives other people an opportunity to to rally against that we've gone very deep haven't we already let's talk about serena vickman's optostats shall we gear change all 12 of her matches in charge at the uefa women's european championship with her sides as in England and the Netherlands scoring 35 goals and conceding just five in the process I mean we don't really need that much love for Serena Vigman in this pod than we've already given her Susie but what a champion she's incredible and she's incredibly likable as well which is it makes it extra nice to cover her and to be in her press conferences and to chat with her afterwards. She's so to the point and the team are so behind what she's done to them.

I think there's a clarity there that was completely shot under Phil Neville. You know, there was a real confusion, confusion I think amongst the squad as to what what they were doing and what the plan was there wasn't I don't think really a plan and she just brought this calmness this clarity and created a team right where you've got Alessia Russo feeling confident and brave enough in her first major tournament to flick a backheel towards goal that goes in I mean that speaks to the attitudes that she's managed to sort of embed through the team in such a short space of time as well as saying pre-tournament that I don't think we'll see a Serena Vigman England team until next summer like she's only had less than a year in charge and you know has been sort of

working with the pre-existing parts and I think this tournament will do so much to tell her about this squad and about these players and about the character of them and you know about the way they play in a way that she hasn't had yet because they've not really played much competitive football yes world cup qualifiers but they've been you know relatively straightforward easy games yeah so i think actually next summer is when we're going to really see exactly what a serena england side looks like and that is incredibly exciting and it's great to have someone that has such an understanding of football in charge of the team which makes a big difference so many people don't know anything about her you and i have been really lucky that we've sat down and

interviewed her and she's actually got a really wicked sense of humor and is fantastic great fun but you don't hear that in interviews anybody that's heard her interviews i say to her after like i've said this to her on a number of occasions in this tournament you need a cricket bat you should play cricket for the amount of defensive shots you play at me but she is someone who is meticulous in her preparation you sat down with her the other day and she was telling you about yoga meditation and how important that is in her life but she's just a very grounded individual isn't she yeah she's just brilliant there's no there's no other word for it i mean she's brilliant and i've run out of ways to i can give i can give a little bit more insight because she's got two teenage daughters so i think that's quite important to to know and when I was six months pregnant with my little boy, Ted,

who I didn't know was a little boy called Ted at the time, obviously, we were talking. So it was back last September. We walked down from when she was unveiled to everybody. We walked down the stairs and we walked into the tunnel at Wembley before she did that kind of iconic manager arriving at Wembley walkout, you know, press moment. And she was just asking me, you know, what are you going to do with work? How are you going to juggle things? And she just wanted to know about me as a person and what it was going to be like for me working as a mom in this industry and then telling me about what it was like for her and how she did it. And she'd said to me, because I think she's very similar in lots of ways

to gareth southgate in terms of people management they're both empathetic people people and she said that to me she said i don't know how else to describe it but i am a p i am a people person but she said i'm a people people i've remembered where my trainer fort was going actually she was um so basically she i've forgotten you forgot it again oh i've got it i've got it i've got it i've got it i've got it i've got it a long month so she really really wants the team to have fun and enjoy it and it's because she reflects on her career and thinks that she didn't enjoy it and every moment as much as maybe she should have should have at the time and she really regrets that and so it's really really important for her that her teams are having

a lot of fun are enjoying the moment are living in the moment are playing for each game but you know for each you know fixture and for the next game as they have been in this tournament but are really also in the moment at the same time and enjoying it and that's kind of nice right like she she looks at her career and is trying to shape the way these players look at their career in a very different way it feels so obvious to me that the thing that football has been forgetting or has forgotten till this point until very very recently if you want to get the best out of a group of people make them feel loved make them feel supported

make them feel valued and really focus on that as a manager Jurgen Klopp, Gareth Southgate, Serena Wiegmann are all exemplary examples of how you do that with a group of people and it just feels like if you're not doing that you can have the like football is concentrated for how ever long on getting the best tacticians the best physicality all these kind of things that the the small margins but for me it's like because there's something that's been so maybe masculine about football which has been like emotion doesn't matter or the people to people thing doesn't matter that it's kind of disregarded that now the the one percent the two percent three percent are all being found in the relational emotional support and and development and that prioritization

it feels so stupid that managers aren't doing that now it's like that's how you get results have have your background staff have your backroom staff who do the technicality stuff, but then just be a leader who like gets the best out of people by making them feel loved. And that's what Serena's done. And leadership's all about communication and everybody knowing what their role is. It's so simple, but so many people get it wrong.

Johnny, what does this even mean? Because I don't really know how anybody goes back to normal life. We've not had to do this as a nation for an entire generation. But what's this going to mean for these players? It's the sort of thing they'll bond over, I think. And they will meet each other in five years' time, 10 years' time, 20, 50 years' time. There will be commemorations and anniversary celebrations this thing will be

kind of packaged up as nostalgia and people will you know share their memories of of where they were and what they were feeling at this time and it's the sort of thing that they will be able to recognize each other across a crowded room and know that they shared this thing together and whatever else they achieve or whatever else they go on to do nobody will ever be able to take that away from them it's it's this incredible thing that they've done and they did it together and they did it by playing for each other and by totally submitting to this team and and the collective and and doing it for something larger and i think you know quite apart from whatever you know brand endorsements or new contracts they get out of this or fame or a place on celebrity bake-off or sports personality of the year or

whatever that stuff is ephemeral that stuff will will come and go what's the portrait one because lots of uber moyes is an ace for winning that oh yeah yeah the sky one thing yeah yeah she'd be great at that to be fair but you know once that stuff goes the the memories and the the friendships and the experience and the you know the shared journey, sorry, sorry, that's what will endure. And I envy them that, honestly, because people who have been involved in professional sport will say that is the very best thing about it. Do you think we'll all meet up in 20 years' time and bond over this podcast recording moment

in a premier room in Wembley? With greys and haribo bow and tinnies please please oh amazing suzy that i mean there's still going to be a lot of people listening who perhaps haven't followed women's football before what do they do next when does the wsl start how do they kind of carry on this momentum because we have a responsibility as as football fans not just women's football fans football fans to make sure that people are going to these games and growing it you say that like i have looked beyond this moment um yeah no it's the second week of uh september that the um women's super league gets underway i think it's the 10th and 11th maybe. I might be getting that wrong. You're looking amazing by now.

I haven't got a clue what day it is tomorrow. It is that weekend. There's also Champions League qualifying before then when you've got Man City up against Real Madrid, which is a lovely little match-up to try and get a spot in the group stage of the tournament. What's brilliant about next season in the Women's Super League is obviously you've got all these european champions going into their club

teams that you can go and watch but also a lot of the big european stars from other countries as well are playing in the women's super league now so there's you know real like nice chance to go and see some of these players that people have bonded with throughout this tournament in the flesh in what is a really like friendly environment where all the players like spend ages after games like signing autographs for kids and taking photos and things like that it's a real like interactive league really in a really wonderful way and now you know covid restrictions are gone there's a lot more of that being brought back which is nice and the great thing is is the clubs are also starting to take advantage of the momentum of this tournament have announced series of games in the major stadiums and fields liverpool women are playing at chelsea playing their opening

fixture at stanford bridge arsenal have announced six games at the emirates across the course of the season starting off with the first north london derby and you know most of them are like working towards games in the big men's stadiums which everyone knows everyone knows where they are how they get there and it's about integrating women's football into people's routines i think it's a great league to watch it's really competitive so yeah hopefully hopefully there's you know a lot of work put into marketing the league in the build up to the start of the new season off the back of this big win but not just in you know a nice shiny social media campaign and things like that but I'd like to see clubs in particular

going into their local communities in a much more meaningful way and really like working to bring the community into those games and to see these players and to watch these teams. Because I don't think any club in England really gets that right. And you look at, say, Angel City in the US, which had sold 16,000 season tickets before they even launched the team. Like, and part of that is because they have done loads and loads of community work they've really gone in and built a fan base before there's anything to be a fan of so if they can do that why can't we get huge numbers of fans who are wedded to their premier league teams or championship teams or whichever is tied to the women's teams in the women's super league along to those games.

There is a way to do that and they're not succeeding. But also below the Women's Super League, there's a whole range of fantastic teams all the way down to the National League. And they shouldn't be forgotten. They should not be forgotten. Sunday 21st of August, guys. Dulwich Hamlets' first home game of the season.

There we go. And you can go and see Salon play. And yeah, I mean mean they are like fantastic teams to watch with with players with great stories uh you know the same stories that many of these players had when they were starting out and yeah real sort of great lower league football that is often actually quite local yeah this is on you and i mean you as in like the person listening to this podcast suzy's been doing this stuff for you and i mean you as in like the person listening to this podcast suzy's been doing this stuff for years faye's been doing this like presenting like the

women's football podcast for years ceylon's been doing this stuff for years this is on you walking your dog driving your car like you know in the gym whatever if you like this stuff there is more of this stuff out there and you will like it. Like go and support, you know, go and support your local team. Go and tell people about it. That's what True Legacy is. I think as well, like the women's game is a space where you can fully make it what you want it to be. And like if you've always felt a sense of not really belonging in football or professional sport, the women's game is a space that will welcome you with open arms and allow you to define your own relationship to it and it might be that you just come to one game

every now and then and enjoy the vibe but it also might be that you find your community and you find your people and actually it's the sport that you've never really seen an interest in or thought that's something for me but suddenly you found this group of people that feel like these are my people and these are these are the people that will make me feel like me and I think that is what so many people who've come to women's football have thought I can belong here and I can exist here and I can thrive here and this is where I want to be for the yeah every weekend or every weeknight whatever it is you can find that in your own space and define your own relationship to it and no one's going to tell you that you're not good enough or that you're not the right sort of person for this space which is sometimes what you can feel in other sports so yeah i'd say to the listener go and find your local space or your online community

whatever it be but you will find it and you will be welcomed with open arms i loved leah williamson's post-match interview as well i don't know if you saw it like it's best if you watch it without the sound and don't actually listen to it and it's like the angriest thing you think wow god she's lost um because it's just like furious but then you listen to it and she is saying get to the women's super league this is a team of winners you get to come and see these winners get into those grounds and it was just it just oozed like passion but also like demands like and i think that's what this win is going to do for these players as well like they've won something now like they they feel like they can demand more and they they've got this great bargaining chip now they're winners like they've got something and i think that's going to be a little bit of a game changer as well that's the perfect way to end it i think

and i've absolutely loved our little premier in podcast record setup studio it's been wonderful from the mini baby bells to the doritos to the pop taye. You can call them tinnies. Tinnies. Salon. It's been, for the entire month, an absolute pleasure, mate. I'm just going to go and cry for another month. In a corner, you'll find Salon Hickman.

Rocking. Johnny Lou. It's been a pleasure. Always. I'm just watching you. And I took a photo of you when we first came in, lounging on the bed. And I don't think I'm ever going to get that image out of my head and now know what our list is

I mean all the plaudits and everything wonderful to you are you going to bed because I'm not going to bed probably not we've got this thing to do at Trafalgar Square next we're still not even finished we might as well head there now why not let's just pack let's just get a tent

on the way thank you for sharing it with us as well for all the messages that you've sent us in your support on this pod we've really had a blast bringing you this very very special series talking about a very very special tournament and we hope that we will speak to you again very very soon everybody although not me because I still don't like it

go back to listening to Sweet Caroline on repeat The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver and Jessie Parker-Humphreys

with additional help from Silas Gray and George Cooper music composition was by Laura Iredale and our executive producers are Chessie Bent Danielle Stephens and Max Son composition was by Laura Iredale and our executive producers are Chessie Bent, Danielle Stevens and

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