The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Heartbreak for England as Spain lift World Cup – Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: August 20, 2023

Faye Carruthers, Suzanne Wrack, Jonathan Liew and Marva Kreel reflect on Spain’s World Cup final triumph over England

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starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected, be Zen. This is The Guardian. Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Oh, I don't want to talk about it. I am still sulking. Congratulations to Spain. World champions against the odds. The Lionesses fall at the final hurdle.

We'll talk starters, substitutions, super saves and crossbars. Plus take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel, the only phone engineered by Google and proud partner of the England teams. Search Google Store to find out more. Oh, panel, panel, panel. I mean, when I posted out the tweet,

X, whatever it is the hell you call it nowadays, of Mary Earp saying, F off, that is exactly how I feel. Susie, those mini baby bells have been replaced by milk duds. No party atmosphere for us a year on, I'm afraid. No, unfortunately not. I haven't even got a beer. I could do with beer. I need a beer. I need a beer. I don't even drink beer. You can get one on room service. Johnny Lou spending guardian money. There's a QR code. Me and Susie are in the same hotel. So

there's a QR code on a card next to the fridge and it takes you to the room service, the all-night bar menu. Well, that is what I'm going to be doing. I've heard. I've heard. Can I just let you both know that the Guardian hierarchy will be listening to this

and checking your receipts. I do think a commiserating beer is okay though. Johnny Lou, I assume you made the bus. I mean, that was the most exciting part of this afternoon from my point of view. Will Susie Rack hold the bus up for Johnny Lou to make it? Yes, I made the bus and I made the pod just about. I was saying earlier that in 1930, the BBC radio announced that there was no news today and just played piano music for 15 minutes. I was wondering if you thought about maybe doing that for this pod instead of actual analysis. I actually think that would have been better than my intro, which was just very childish and sulky because I'm still not over it, if I'm honest. And Marva Creel, who is a glutton for punishment, not only did you watch that defeat for England,

you then watched Everton's annihilation at the hands of Aston Villa. What's actually wrong with you? Oh, why do I do it? Why do I do it? I thought women's football was my safe haven from this all, but it's just not. Today has just been possibly the worst day of football I've ever had. But, you know, we go again. Salon Andy Hickman ditched us today as well to go to the after party.

I know where she would rather be right at this moment in time. Right, that's where we're starting and finishing. Spain won, England nil. Tears of agony and ecstasy at the final whistle in Sydney as Spain beat England to become world champions. Olga Carmona's precise drilled strike just before the half-hour mark, the only goal of the game, and the Lionesses will be haunted by the width of the bar

which Lauren Hemp struck in the 15th minute. It really felt as if we were set up for a grandstand finish when Mary Earps, who was astonishing all evening between the sticks, saved Jenny Hermoso's penalty. But despite 13 minutes of added time at the end, England simply could not find a way through. I mean, it was a real gutting way for this tournament to end for England, Susie, but they were just outplayed, weren't they? Yeah. And I mean, I suppose there can be some, no, they can't really. But anyway, it's like I was going to say some solace in the fact that

they would you know the better team won by far like they were just outclassed and outplayed so comprehensively that you can't feel too beat up about it I guess to a certain extent obviously there were chances and stuff but it never ever really for me looked like England were going to get back into it. Yeah, just, you know, things didn't quite go their way in a way that in other games things had. Yeah, I mean, it's just getting to be close, isn't it? I mean, if you told me they'd reached the World Cup final at the start of the tournament, I would have laughed at you. Because, you know, with all the injuries and stuff, I just felt like it was you know one too many and you know such short space of time between the Euros

and the World Cup only a year because of the Covid delay so it just felt like it wasn't quite going to be their year World Cup wise for me so yeah I would have bitten your hand off even at a semi-final at that stage so I think yeah it's the being so close that hurts. It does feel like we're going to look back on this in maybe a few days' time when the dust has settled and think actually, you know, getting to the final in the first place, as Susie says, Johnny, was an amazing achievement. But what do you make of the performance on the day? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't good enough.

I think I see a world in which England cause Spain a lot more problems in that game. You know, obviously they were outclassed in terms of execution, but, you know, little micro moments, little decisions that were made. Kem hits the bar in the first half. That goes in, you know,

you've got a totally different game. I look at those halftime subs and think, did you go too early maybe? Did you roll the dice too early? Is it a change of system in the middle of a World Cup final? Too much of a gamble? And the disappointment was that when England were chasing the game, you know, last 20, 30 minutes, 13 minutes of injury time, it was all just a little bit stop and start. They couldn't really get anything together. There were no clear chances. You think, you know, Beth England comes on, if she gets one chance, the whole narrative of the game could turn.

And they just didn't, you know, they couldn't get anything going. Spain managed to just get so much of the ball and the game was always going to turn on what England were going to do with their 35% of the ball. And with the extra pressure on them to create and the extra pressing that Spain put on them, they just didn't quite do enough with it, I'm afraid. Yeah, the stats actually showed they had more of the ball than I thought they were going to, to be honest, but as you say, just didn't do anything with it. And we'll go bit by bit through the game in chronological order in a second. But watching on back here in the UK, Marva, at what point did you think

it just wasn't going to be England's day? In all honesty, pretty early on. It just seemed like we just couldn't get a hold of the game. And I think once it was 1-0, I really worried for us. I think also just our kind of style of play, I think, to press from the front so much. I mean, just kind of Spain just kept breaking our press really easily. And their kind of overloads, which I was worried about against Daly,

but also on the other side as well, were just too clear and too obvious. And then it meant that we had so many players kind of up the other end of the pitch that then when we even got the ball, there was nothing we could do with it. I thought where we could hurt them was by doing what Japan did. I know that sounds easy to just say and not do, but to kind of have a bit of a low block and all kind of hold it there and then attack and then a quick counterattack,

a quick transition and getting behind maybe some long balls over the top. But even that we couldn't really do. So I expected Spain to have possession, but I think what was worrying was the fact that they looked more threatening on the counterattack as well, even when they did have a counterattack. So when it got into that, about 25 minutes into the game and that pattern of play, I just thought this could be a very long one for us here.

Yeah, it felt like a really long day, didn't it? Rishi Sunak, British Prime Minister, you left absolutely nothing out there, Lionesses. It wasn't to be, but you've already secured your legacy as game changers. We're all incredibly proud of you. Three someone should probably help him out isn't it leave everything out there aren't you supposed to leave everything out there not nothing or do they mean the same thing well i mean i don't even have anything to say at this point uh except probably don't tweet about

football uh speaking of tweets that haven't gone down too well, Spanish Football Federation with Jorge Vilda kissing the trophy, Vilda in. Spain had never even won a knockout game coming into this tournament. Now they're world champions. No Sandra Panoz,

Mappy Leon, Patrick Gallaro or Claudia Pina in this team. They all helped Barcelona, you'll remember, win the Champions League back in June. We have spoken extensively on this pod about the reasons why 12 Spain players ruled themselves out of consideration for this tournament. Susie, your first tweet of the final whistle was, you know what's terrifying? Imagine how long Spain could dominate for if they actually ditched Wilder. I mean, you have to credit them because all the background noise,

all the chaos, all the uncertainty, they've still gone and made history. Yeah, and played phenomenally well and just so slick in pretty much everything they do. But there's just this horrible crapness hanging over it that is their manager who, yes, he's a World Cup winner, but I just feel like it's so much despite him rather than because of him. You can see it in the way the players respond to him.

You could see it in the celebrations after the match when he's trying to dance in the way the players respond to him you could see it in the celebrations after the match when he's sort of trying to dance in the middle of them they all sort of turn their back on him and form almost like there's a little circle around him uh where he's sort of removed from the celebrations and on the final whistle as well all the players celebrating on one end of the pitch and the staff are celebrating at the other but wasn't he lifted up though? Looking closely at that though, I thought there were quite a lot of staff holding him up. And some players, but quite a lot of staff. There was an interesting symbolism in Spain's players,

you know, holding up Wilder, seeing as that's basically what they've been doing all tournament. Or Olga Carmona, the goalscorer in her press conference, said the federation were marvellous. They put in all the conditions to make us champions of the world. Wilder then said in his press conference, we're at the vanguard of this sport. The federation gave the best conditions for players and staff. Is he basically thanking his dad? I think. I think he's thanking his dad, isn't he?

Here's some of the reaction from inside the England camp. Serena Wieigman says, Spain was just a little bit better than we were today. I think we can be very proud of ourselves, but it doesn't feel like that at the moment. Millie Bright, England's captain, said it's really hard to take.

We gave it everything. In the first half, we weren't at our best, but we bounced back in the second half. And Itana Bonmati, who was given the golden ball as player of the tournament, said, I don't have any words. We deserve it. Everyone given the golden ball as player of the tournament said I don't have any words we deserve it everyone knew the goal at the beginning of the tournament we've

been working a lot of years for this moment look I said we were going to try and go through the key moments of the game and figure out why England just fell short and Spain ultimately became world champions let's start with team selection shall we Serena Wiegmann unchanged like we expected, opted to put Lauren James on the bench and then no Alexia Puteas in the starting 11 for Spain. Salma Paraluello came in in her place. This is what Farrah Williams had to say in the BBC's coverage. Tactically, we got it completely wrong.

This is of the first half performance, Jonny. She was very vocal, thinking Lauren James should have started. What do you think? Yeah, hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? I mean, obviously, she went with the same system. She went with Ella Toon. I thought Toon was pretty much anonymous. It was a shame, really, that in what's probably the biggest game of her life, she didn't perform. And it wasn't totally her fault. I mean, the thing about that system, if you don't have a lot of possession, if you don't have a lot of the ball, the midfield is constantly covering, running and fighting fires. Walsh and Stanway are constantly off helping out Daly and Bronze, covering those gaps.

And then when you get the ball, you are in no kind of state to build an attack. And that was just happening again and again. So, yeah, you could say that Lauren James might do a better job you know holding the ball up and essentially as an outlet just holding it moving up the pitch and I guess in retrospect that probably would have been the better move I thought she played pretty well when she came on Lauren James she didn't tear it up but she was she was okay so in terms of that selection I guess you could say with hindsight probably James over two but I can see why she went the way she did. Yeah, it felt as if the managers both went, you know, Wilder backed his young player in Paraluelo and Serena Wiegmann,

perhaps based on what happened with Lauren James being sent off in the Nigeria game, opted to keep her on the bench. The whole game could have been so different if that Lauren Hempstrike hadn't rebounded off the bar on the quarter hour mark though, Marva. Yeah, of course. And again, you know, what could have been. But I think also, what was it, a minute after that, Spain should have scored. It was that chance at the far post that she kind of hit

back across goal, which Erp's then made a great save, but she should have just hit it close to where she was. So I think, yeah, say it was it could have been a different game but it just seemed like Spain were constantly creating chances and constantly looking more threatening than us and I think even if Lauren Hemp had scored that there are other games where I think oh if only we had scored that then it would have been a different game but I honestly can't say that with certainty because so soon after they should have scored about three goals themselves Spain and we were lucky to go in at one nil to be honest so I'll still dream for the next four years that that hemp goal goes in and we win the

World Cup but you just never know. No I agree with you I think we probably should have been three nil down at half time and other than that hemp chance Susie the opportunities were really few and far between Spain looked completely in control in that hemp chance, Susie, the opportunities were really few and far between. Spain looked completely in control in that first half. And then we get the finish from Olga Carmona. Absolutely nothing Mary Earps could do about it, but obviously it might take Lucy Bronze a little bit of time to recover from giving the ball away

and getting caught out of position. I mean, she'd be kicking herself for that. Yeah, it was almost like she was trying to have a little bit of a hero moment and, you know and went sort of charging into the middle of the park, trying to make something happen when they were really struggling to keep hold of the ball. Not a great thing to do against a Spain side that is going to really punish you for that and really, really clever of Onye Batlle to play the ball

straight into the space that she had vacated as well. And yeah, then it was downhill from there, wasn't it? Carmona's finish, I thought, was phenomenally good. But yeah, I mean, we know that Lucy Bronze likes to beat herself up over errors and she's really going to be beating herself up over that one for a very, very long time, I imagine. She was pretty distraught in the mix zone afterwards. Yeah, said that, you know, she doubts she'll ever find any joy in looking at a silver medal and things like that. Just really, really devastated.

So yeah, big, big mess up in a big, big moment. Yeah, Twitter was distracted trying to figure out what was written on Carmona's undershirt. Merci, I apologise, that sounds more French than Spanish, if I'm honest. Sidlow tweeted afterwards saying, message on Olga's shirt was for the mother of a friend who passed away recently. So nice touch from her. England had to make a change, Johnny.

They were completely outplayed in the first half, as we've said. 38% of the possession. They were completely overrun in midfield as well. So Lauren James and Chloe Kelly come on for Rachel Daly and Alessia Russo. My jaw hit the floor when I saw who was coming off. I absolutely understood why Lauren James and Chloe Kelly were coming on. But to take off Daly and Russo, Laura tweeted us, would you have made different changes than those at half-time

and would you have done them at a different time? We usually see 70 minute changes and I was honestly expecting Toon rather than Russo to go out, judging on recent decisions. Similarly from Kate, I remain confused by the halftime subs. Can you explain the reasoning behind them,

if that's possible? I can't see that taking off one half of a forward pair that's worked so well makes sense. Leaving Lauren Hemp up front on her own seemed decidedly odd to me anyway. I mean, Serena had to try something, but was that perhaps the wrong thing to try? I'm surprised she went that early. My sort of slightly tongue-in-cheek suggestion was that Beedon was trying to beat Spain with a striker as 4-3-3 as a kind of a rich irony.

But if you think about, you know, obviously you're trying to get an equaliser. There's a possibility that the game is going to go into extra time, plus, you know, however many added minutes. So essentially what you're doing is you're taking Alessio Russo, who is probably your best chance of getting a goal, or certainly one of the players you most want getting on the end of a chance for 80, 85 minutes of the game. And I think whatever the reasoning behind that, that is a gamble.

That is a huge gamble. Again, you can see why Kelly comes on. And the switch from the five to the four, maybe it was expediency, maybe it was panic. But I think you could tell in that second half, the thing that England did so well last year's Euros was that everyone knew their roles. Obviously, we know it was a settled team, but it was also a settled system. And there was a kind of intuition, a kind of instinct that built up between them. So you know that Stanway's always going to be making

that run to the right channel. You know where Lucy Braun is going to be, et cetera. And I think a lot of the slowness, I think it was, the little bit of delayed decision-making that we saw in the second half was kind of almost uncertain. It took like half a second. It was taking half a second for the player on the ball to work out, well, you know, where is she going to be? Where is everybody?

Is Lucy Bronze going to be 10 yards further on when she's playing wing-back or is she going to be a little bit further on when she's playing wing-back, or is she going to be a little bit further back when she's playing right-back? It was little things like that. And I think that's the main difference between, apart from all the injuries, but that's the main difference between this campaign and last summer, that they never really seemed to settle on a way to play, a way that they wanted to play.

They tried to be pragmatic. They tried to adjust the circumstances. But in those really tight, tense moments against the highest of position, just that bit of instinct, just knowing where everyone's going to be is just so valuable. And I think that's what they didn't have. Yeah, and they did improve in the second half, Marva. But Mary Earp still had to save the Lionesses on a couple of occasions. Waves of pressure from Spain.

Bon Mati pulling the strings as well. And it just didn't ever feel like they were properly going to get back into it. Yeah, I thought there was a sort of a brief few minutes after the changes where you thought, oh, actually, OK, I can see why she's done this. Walsh was playing a nice ball out to Kelly a few times. And then she was whipping in a few good crosses or passing it back and then Bruns had one as well where she whipped it in and there was that one with Carter at the back post who just kind of fluffed her shot but there were signs that the

switch to formation does make sense because we were just sort of whipping balls into the box but yeah it just it still didn't pay off enough I think maybe it would have been interesting to see just James come on at first for someone like Toon to just see in that maybe it would have been interesting to see just James come on at first for someone like Toon to just see in that system that we've been used to this tournament could we get a change just from personnel before the formation switch but then I can also understand the formation switch in the sense of we were really getting down down those wings and we needed to switch something up but given that Serena's a manager who um you know previous games she's waited until about the 88th minute to make a change to make two at half time and then I did

think actually you know given all my injuries you look at that bench and after you've made those two changes other than Beth England who we know she's really only going to bring on in the last five minutes who else can you bring on to really make a difference so I did think she went a bit too early there and it just never really got going I think no matter where we were in the pitch no matter what moment it was in the game Spain just always seemed to have like more players than us it didn't matter where it was which is credit to them because they executed their plan perfectly and we just didn't have an answer really so yeah maybe you could say some of the changes could have been done better, but I just think we just couldn't get into it regardless.

I do think maybe after that Erp's save for the penalty, there just seemed a bit of momentum, but Spain just did so well at grabbing it back. Yeah, I think that was the opportunity to seize the momentum for sure, wasn't it? But equally, I do think we need to give Spain a massive amount of credit. That is the best that they defended the whole tournament. I actually thought they didn't give England a moment's peace or space.

And, you know, they won it by a goal to nil. That is the execution of a perfect game plan. The penalty incident, Susie, long, long VAR check after the handball from Kira Walsh. Tori Penso goes to the screen awards it right decision I would say but Jenny Himoso from the spot poor penalty saved by Mary Earps did it feel like the game was going to turn then like Marva said or just a stay of execution at that point I mean in hindsight a stay of execution right but at the

same time it did lift the crowd significantly I think that was probably the loudest they were at any moment in the game you felt a little bit of fire in their bellies after it but you never felt safe either like I just felt this like my stomach my gut just felt constantly tense because with every foray forward, I felt like they were going to catch us on the break. It just felt like it was going to end badly, not well. Weirdly, I spent the whole day, all morning, all day, right up until kickoff at 8pm local time, thinking that England were going to lose, like thinking that Spain would just be too good. Like I genuinely thought that we weren't going to win the game and I was almost in mourning all day like I was like just it was

like I was sat at a funeral in the press box and in the media room for like five hours before kick off just writing and feeling very sorry for myself almost as if I was pre-empting exactly what was going to happen. And then at the point of Erp's save, I got a little sliver of hope in me that just flickered its little head up and then, yeah, got crushed back down again. But I think there was a problem with taking Roos off and just leaving Lauren Hemp on her own up there. You know, she's not a tall player. She's not a target player. We needed someone there for me. Like, you've taken off Rachel Daly as well. So you've not even got her sort of able to sort of cut in and play that role.

Leave it quite late to bring on Beth England, who can play that role a little bit better. But yeah, you had, you know, sort of some really great crosses coming in from Chloe Kelly and stuff and no one really there to get on the end of them in a way that you would expect Russo to. So yeah, I also found the changes slightly unsatisfactory in who went off rather than who came on.

Johnny, you have something to add about the officiating? Oh yeah, I thought the ref was toilet. I thought she was... I mean, no, disgrace is too far, but she was just really bad. Tori Penso, was it, from America? There's something, you know, maybe it's the guttural reaction to having a penalty delivered against England

by someone in an American accent. But it wasn't just that. I thought some of her decision-making was really weird and some of it was inconsistent. And I thought it was a big game, but it was too big a game for her. She did the semi-final as well. And I couldn't understand when she got the final because I didn't think she did a particularly good job in the semi-final either. So that really baffled me. Yeah, right. I mean, did they just have a hotel room booked for her?

And so, you know, well, you've got the whistle, you know, just keep just keep it i don't know i refuse to believe there wasn't a better ref out there for that game ultimately 13 minutes added time didn't mean england could make any more of a breakthrough either it just felt like it was prolonging all of our agony a little bit more uh question from adam what happens next for spain marva i can see them being a bit of a dominant force with the right manager is what adam says which is why i'm not asking suzy yeah i mean listen they've got incredible talent and if it wasn't for the manager situation i think all of us would have backed them as strong contenders from the beginning but we just weren't too sure what was going to happen given everything off the pitch. But you look at their starting 11 and you look at the players who aren't there as well. And that's made up of a massive amount of Barcelona players who

are the best team in the world in my eyes in terms of club level. And then to have Paroleo to come through as well, an unfit Alexi Pateras this time, but given two years of the Euros, I'm sure she'll be brilliant as well, having missed out last time. They've got talent all over the pitch and you saw it today and they've got incredible young players coming through too.

And it seems like they've also sort of fixed that problem where, you know, with Hermoso up front, it was always a little bit touch and go on kind of how many goals they were actually going to score in that system. And now you've got Palladio

who fits into that and does brilliantly well. So I think there's a lot going to score in that system. And now you've got Pau Loewe who fits into that and does brilliantly well. So I think there's a lot more to come from this team. If they get the right resources, obviously some players have come out and said they're getting all the right resources. So who knows? But regardless of the off-the-pitch situation, they've got bundles of talent. We saw it today and I think we're going to see it

for the next few years as well. I thought Spain did get a little bit lucky with the draw. Obviously, they would have faced Japan in the semis. They would have faced

the US in the quarters. And although, obviously, the US aren't what they were, the very, very real possibility of Spain shitting the bed in those situations. So, you know, they have played well.

They are clearly the best team in the tournament. But it is interesting how the draw kind of opened up for them a little bit. That's why I wanted England to go ahead, because I did feel like they would shit the bed if England went ahead. I thought they'd panic like they did against Japan, but it wasn't meant to be. They got the goal, nothing in return. That's it for part one. In part two, we'll look at some of the standout players and moments of the tournament and check in on our pre-tournament predictions. welcome back to part two of the guardian women's football weekly so fifa have dished out their end of tournament awards the fair play award presented to japan have they ever not won it i don't know

i don't think so uh the young player award went to Salma Paraluello the golden glove to Mary Earps Mary Queen of Stops as she's known in commentary golden boot award went to Hinata Miyazawa of Japan for five goals and one assist silver boot to Kadedatu Diani four goals one assist from France and Germany's Alexandra Popp, four goals, got the bronze boot award. The golden ball award, as I mentioned earlier on, to Aitana Bonmati, the silver ball award. Why are we getting gold, silver and bronze ball awards? I'm not quite sure about that, but Bonmati got the golden ball. Jennifer Hermoso got the silver ball and Amanda Illestead got the bronze ball.

OK, no arguments on Bon Mati being player of the tournament. Susie, an absolute masterclass from her today as we saw throughout and as we've mentioned previously, she plays better when Puteas isn't on the pitch. Yeah, she's an absolute master and I hope that she wins a Ballon d'Or and it doesn't go to Puteas again because, yeah, she's had a phenomenal season phenomenal few seasons probably should have won it last year I think Alex Greenwood deserves a shout in the like player of the tournament rankings for me I mean pre the final she was first for chances created first for touches first for passes first for accurate passes first for touches, first for passes, first for accurate passes, first for passing accuracy.

She's been brilliant and stepped into the team when she had other players being fit, Leah Williamson not injured, etc. Probably wouldn't have even played. So I would have put her up alongside Bonn-Matty, maybe not given that they won it beating her but at least the silver ball I would have had her up there for yeah I thought I loved the um well I'm sure she didn't and her head's not going to tomorrow when she gets a big egg on the side of it that parallel knee to Alex Greenwood's head meaning she had to walk around with a Terry Butcher-esque bandage around her head for the end of the game I'm still still very surprised, actually, she stayed on.

I think that's probably a discussion for another day in terms of the concussion substitutions. Clearly, the doctors did their job and cleared her to carry on. But I always worry with those kind of things. Anyone else you want to single out for some love, Johnny? Abelera, Teresa Abelera, who I thought was, you know, you could have half a dozen Spain players in a team at the tournament. I thought Abelera was so, so crucial just as an outlet for playing the ball out, for beating the press, for just distributing it to, I guess,

what you'd call the more creative players. Linde Caicedo, Miyazawa, Gori. It's actually been a really strong tournament for midfielders, which I like to think is a sign of the increasing sophistication of the game. And yeah, Greenwood as well. And Mucevic. There's been so many. There's been so many new stars.

Well, not new stars, but there's been so many kind of breakout stars and, you know, champion players who are just performing at a very top level. So yeah, well done to them. Yes. And Japan's Hinatra minazawa winning the golden boot two of those goals she scored coming against spain in that four nil demolition in the final group game football is a funny old game marva yeah i want to give a shout out as well to jess carter actually because i thought in this game particularly i thought she was incredible

she's been so so useful useful to this England team, especially when we were playing with a bat five, because I think obviously she helps Lucy Bronze go up. She kind of helps those gaps that Lucy Bronze leaves. And then even when she got pushed over to left back today, there was a point where she was still covering Lucy Bronze's run up. She managed to kind of get across and put in a block on the right side of the pitch, which just goes to show you,

I think she was just incredible in terms of her defending throughout the tournament as well when she was someone that we weren't even sure would play. So yeah, massive shout out to her. And just a final word on Merps, Mary Earps, the Golden Glove winner.

Remarkable tournament for her, Susie. Saved England on so many occasions. In fact, without her, I'm not entirely sure England would have even got to the final in the first place. And she's the first England goalkeeper, man or woman, to ever win the Golden Glove at a World Cup.

Where are her shirts? It'd be really nice to pick up a shirt, wouldn't it? And celebrate the world's best player of the year and Golden Glove World Cup winner and all of the year and golden glove world cup winner and all of the other things she's picked up european championship medal winner like yeah madness but yeah phenomenal performance and it's weird because i've always really liked mary she's brilliant character brilliant person and her Euros performance was phenomenal. And you sort of wondered whether that was her peak,

but she's still playing at that level and doing really well and just has this confidence and swagger to the way she behaves in the game. She just really, really believes in herself, her ability, the players around her in a satisfyingly arrogant way, not an annoyingly arrogant way, which I really like. Yeah, absolutely. That gif is going viral, isn't it, for sure. Right, let's embarrass ourselves, shall we, yet again, just to revisit our pre-tournament predictions.

Spoiler alert, as if you needed it. None of us did particularly well. Although I did say England would go all the way. So I'm just, you know, what's that thing you do? Lick your tongue and put your finger in the air? That's me. One. That's it. I'm done.

Except they didn't go all the way. But they got to the final. They couldn't have gone any further apart from winning it. So I'm taking it. Although I did say that we would beat the USA in the final they couldn't have gone any further apart from winning it so I'm taking it although I did say that we would beat the USA in the final I don't think anyone predicted the USA would go out of the last 16 stage I said my dark horses were Australia they got to the semi-final and actually so did you Susie um although Marva you saidorses. You said France slash Zambia. Now, let me just have a little focus on Zambia

because I think they conceded 13 goals and scored one. Yeah, I got carried away there. You also said it would be a USA-Germany final. Germany knocked out of the group stage. USA knocked out of the last 16. I was just doing what Susie does where you predict it and then you hope that it goes the other way that was my long-term plan. Okay well Susie also said that England were going to go out to Germany in the quarterfinals. Yeah I mean I think it was a fairly

legitimate assumption at the time I think every prediction under the sun went out the window ahead of this tournament, apart from Farrah Williams, who seemed to be doing remarkably well up to a certain point until the final. But yeah, I mean, my prediction's always rubbish. Well, I did predict the final, right? So, you know, maybe things have started to turn my way, disappointingly. Did anyone hear about the asparagus woman? Oh, yes.

Yes. The asparagus woman in Bath who predicted the tournament by throwing asparagus spears up in the air and reading basically where they land, and she predicted that England would win on penalties. She said she predicted that England would win on penalties for quite a long time, quite a few months. So if there's any comfort, it's that none of us really did any better

than the asparagus. It's as bad as Paul the Octopus, RIP. And the pandas, the pandas at the Qatar World Cup were interesting. Just to embarrass myself finally, I said Rachel Daly would be the golden boot winner and Rachel Daly did not get on the score sheet. Susie went for Sam Kerr. At least she scored that wonder volley.

Marva, you went for Sophia Smith. Started well. Not too bad. Robin also went for Sam Kerr as well. And she went for Norway as dark horses. Johnny Liu, just be very, very grateful you didn't do our preview pod. So you cannot be embarrassed any further in the rest of this episode so i did some predictions for the newspaper and go on you know tell me okay well i predicted it but the thing is like sam kerr getting injured just threw the whole thing off it threw the whole thing off i predicted an australia usa final kerr for the golden boot dark horse was italy yeah and um yeah that was that was it really so but you know i my predictions did get slowly better through the tournament i did predict you know we predicted

england would beat columbia that they'd smash the aussies and i did predict that england would lose today not on the pod not not on record, but I think to Susie, maybe to a couple of other people who you'll have to track down and swear under oath. But no, it's true. So ultimately, Johnny, you are our success story, is what you're trying to say. I've grown into the tournament.

I found my momentum. It hasn't been easy at times, but I am a tournament animal. By the way, Daly did get on the score sheet. Didn't she score against China? So you did get one. and my momentum. It hasn't been easy at times, but I am a tournament animal. By the way, Daly did get on the score sheet. Didn't she score against China? So you did get one. Oh God, how could I forget? Do you know what?

That was such a fun pod as well and a fun game. It feels like all the fun has been zapped out of this entire tournament that I even forgot Rachel Daly had scored. Shocking behaviour. With that in mind, before we wrap everything up, I want to get everyone's overriding emotions as we kind of bid farewell to the 2023 Women's World Cup

because I feel as if we've kind of ended on a bit of a negative note and in fact there are many, many positives to take. And by the way, the Lionesses are still going to have a statue outside Wembley Stadium. That was confirmed regardless of what happened in the final. And absolutely so well deserved when you think of the legacy that they left by winning the Euros and then getting to a World Cup final and making history in itself is incredibly impressive. And I don't think we should ever forget that.

But what are your overriding emotions Susie um no I've not got many at the moment they've all like died because I'm just so desperate to get home and I'm so tired um yeah I like I know I obviously you know I predicted that England would go out of the quarterfinals of the tournament. If you had told me, and I said it before the Australia game, that if you had told me that England were going to reach a semifinal, I would have bitten your hand off at the start of the tournament, like with all the injuries and yeah, like I say, the tight turnaround between the Euros and the World Cup

and the retired players, as well as the injured players. All of that I would have taken in a heartbeat so I think on reflection I think even if they'd lost to Australia I would have viewed this tournament as a success for England so yeah there's a lot to look at positively there's a lot to look forward to moving forward when you get those players back when you know some of these players that have you know played in this tournament and got tournament experience on a you know a different level you know the birth of Jess Carter on the international stage obviously Lauren James getting big tournament experience in many many different ways like there's lots of positives to take from

it and there's like a bright future for England moving forward because there's lots of great players coming through but it will take a little while before we can reflect on it properly like that because it is just when you get so close it's hard isn't it it's really hard Marva what what do you think yeah I mean I think in a few days when the dust has settled we will look at this and think wow like we got to a World Cup final and we do need to hold on to that because even just the fact that we're this down and disappointed after just narrowly being beaten by the better team like it wasn't even like a gutting performance in that sense of like you know it was so close they were just the better team on the day we have to hold our hands up but to be this disappointed when to be honest I did not have any

hope we would get to the final and the fact it just shows you where our standards are now like to win the Euros to go and do this the year after what the Lionesses have done not not just for us as supporters but for the generations coming up you can't underestimate what this has done and what their run has done you can see it with the amount of attention now and when it comes to the the overall game as well like this is worlds away from from the world cup in france like i went to the world cup in france you didn't know there was a world cup going on in france so i can only see it going up from here whether it's england whoever it is women's football and women's world cup is just only growing and growing and growing. And for the Lionesses, especially, you know, while I'm gutted for players like Lucy Bronze,

who, you know, probably won't get this chance again. What I do think is that the amount of investment and the amount of eyes on it now just means that even if it's not them, I do trust that we're going to find those next people. And we just have to make sure we harness that and harness this momentum and make sure that those young players who aren't getting picked up necessarily at the moment are in areas you know where there aren't academies and making sure that that we find that talent but it seems to be happening and and that's all we can hope for and the lionesses are a massive part of that very well said marva last word to johnny Johnny Liu. Gosh, a lot of pressure. Well, I would say that World Cups don't necessarily drive change so much as reflect change that's already happened. And I think the big underlying story of this World Cup

is how the rest of the world has developed. I mean, the main story is countries like Colombia. Look at what Colombia and Morocco and Nigeria and Jamaica have done, which is we were predicting absolute wipeouts, sevens, tens, 12 nils. And we're not seeing that anymore. And part of the reason for that is the second major development, which is the shifting of the balance of power away from the United States towards Europe. You know, the Bender of Beckham hero of 2023 isn't going to a US college. She's going to Barcelona or Chelsea.

And that's where the elite coaching and facilities, that's where the hot housing of talent happens these days. And I think that is just going to close the gap even further. You know, it's going to be, you know, a constant cycle of increasing professionalisation, increasing competition. And, you know, for players who might not have had an opportunity to play abroad, I think those opportunities are going to only expand because there are so many top clubs in Europe

who are going to invest the time and money in those players. So yeah, I mean, there are lots of things to worry about as well, you know, in terms of financial inequities and the dominance of certain clubs. And I think what we've seen this tournament is it's not just an American show with some background cast it is a it is a properly global tournament and i think the first one that it's ever had and with that bring on the olympics we'll be there for it that's for sure johnny lou thank you very much safe journey home

thanks for having me marva creel always a pleasure thank you Rack, I don't have enough words for the amazing job that you've done out there. Get yourself home to your family. I look forward to giving you a massive hug on your return. Oh, I need hugs. I need hugs. I had to persuade my son's 10-year-old friend, also called James, who was out here a couple of weeks weeks ago to give me a hug because he was the only James I was going to hug for eight weeks so yeah he obliged he very kindly obliged oh don't do that to me literally my little boy Ted has had his face pressed up against my studio trying to

get in tried to make a cameo on more than one appearance you enjoy that hug suzy uh we're going to take a short break thank you so much for being part of this adventure with us over the last month or so it's been an absolutely incredible tournament we will be back for the start of the new wsl season which gets underway on the 1st of october can you believe that the turnaround is so quick you can subscribe to the guardians moving Goalpost newsletter as well for exclusive women's football content in your inbox. And don't forget, keep your emails coming in to womensfootballweeklyattheguardian.com in the meantime.

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