The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - History awaits England’s Lionesses at Wembley – Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: July 29, 2022

Faye Carruthers, Suzanne Wrack, Anita Asante and Moyo Abiona look ahead to the Euro 2022 final. Tom Middler gives us an insight into the Germans – and the FA’s Kelly Simmons discusses the wider impact of the tournament

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England versus Germany at Wembley on Sunday. How have we got here? What's going to happen under the arch in two days' time? And what does all of this mean for women's football in England? All three of those topics will be tackled. Plus, the FA's Kelly Simmons will join us in part two. We'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is supported by Visa, a proud sponsor of UEFA Women's Euro 2022. In 2020, Visa announced the launch of The Second Half, a career development programme to support female footballers as they consider their careers beyond the football pitch. showing how they will be able to apply these skills outside of sport through training in areas such as financial literacy, personal branding and leadership. By investing in the women's game and programmes like the second half Visa hopes to encourage more young girls to believe that a career in football is possible. And it's in this world of doors opening for more people where we might see a new player of the match or a totally unexpected entrepreneur among us. Visa recognises that we'll only see the best of all of us when everyone participates. Find out more at theguardian.com

slash all hyphen win. Wow, wow, wow. What a panel we have today. Susie Rack, we are limping towards the line potentially, but I reckon we can do a sprint finish. How are you feeling? Oh, still tired. I was just into bed at 2.30 last night,

having transcribed seven interviews back to back and not having written the piece that is supposed to be filed around 11am this morning. So that's going to be fun today. Susie, you can do this. We've got you. I can collapse next week, right? Absolutely, you can. I give permission.

Anita Asante, a first Euros final for the Lionesses since you were in the starting 11. You must be delighted. Oh, yeah. I'm so happy for the girls. You know, I'm buzzing for them. They're going to get the best experience being at Wembley. And we're all getting to just witness this magic unfold, hopefully. Moyo Abiona, have you been able to contain your excitement for Sunday? I haven't. I really haven't, to be honest. I did think it was possible that England were going to get there, but now that England are actually there, it's like, I just need the day to come now. Yeah, tell me about it. Countdown is on.

Tom Middler is probably a little bit more chilled than the rest of us because you're at Spa for the Hungarian Grand Prix this weekend. Yeah, over in Budapest. So ready to watch some Formula One, but definitely holding the European fort when it comes to the women's Euros as well. Absolutely. Right.

First question for the panel comes from Chris on Twitter. He says, what material should the Bethmead statue outside Wembley be made of? And should it be three or four times life size? Moyo, what are we saying? I mean, I think four times life size uh what we're saying i mean i think four times life size may be the scariest thing i've ever seen in my entire life

so no to that but to be honest this has been a legendary level like state of competition for beth mead in terms of the year she's had as a whole it is very much statueworthy whether or not she'll get it is another story but it is very much statueworthy whether or not she'll get it is another story but it is very much statueworthy and if she gets the golden boot I'm saying if and I'm crossing my fingers touching wood and everything that would literally cap it off cap off an amazing season to be honest so it should be in gold is what you're saying gold I think gold I think Anita tell us a little bit about 2009 and what it was like for you. You obviously made the final. It was against Germany. But women's football was in a very, very different place than it perhaps is now.

Yeah, I think when I reflect back on 2009, you know, it felt like a big deal that we got to a final. For the time, we'd not really done that as an England squad. But, you know, it was a different time the game wasn't professional wasn't as developed and obviously Germany were kind of ahead of us in most of European teams in terms of development but I had this conversation recently with Faye White and someone else and we were kind of like that particular game it kind of mixed emotions and mixed memories because we got to a final we were super proud but obviously we were really disappointed to be defeated in the way that we was but at the same

time we sort of went you know what we scored two goals past Germany a team that rarely gets breached and was at the height of dominance in European football at the time so I think we kind of took that kind of positive element from it. But, you know, it's great to see that we have an England team that regularly now gets to the knockout phases and is now a dominant force in Europe to be hopefully reckoned with for a long time to come as well. Tom, we've been able to see for ourselves how this tournament's impacted England, but what effect has it had on the rest of Europe? Has it had the same kind of appeal that we've seen over here? I mean, I can mostly talk for the German speaking world,

essentially, but in Austria, in Germany, it definitely has. You know, it's still, even in nations such as Germany, where it's been perhaps a bit more established or established for a bit longer, the upper echelons of women's football, it's been smashing records in terms of TV viewership, the percentage of people that are tuning in. You're talking about about 12.9 million, I think it was, that tuned into Germany v France in Germany. And you had roughly 50% of their TV viewership watching that game. And the Austria-Germany game before was only a little bit less, around about 10 million. I watched that one in Vienna. Austria, not a particularly significant women's football country at the moment. And we had 10,000 people out at the city hall in Vienna watching that

the atmosphere was absolutely incredible. And I'm not one who says we always need to compare women's football to men's football, but I say this as a great compliment in that it felt just like we were watching the men's world cup, for example, whatever. It was just a big, big, important sporting event. That's all it was. It didn't matter who it was and what it was. And I chatted to you a few weeks ago at the start of the competition. And I said, you know, what's missing people in other countries. You don't see them with, with the women's names on the back of their shirts. You don't see them just flooding out of their houses to come and enjoy these games in, in public viewings in the same way as you do with the men. And that's all changed already. You know, it's just, it's still steps in the right

direction. We're not there yet, but there we were it's just, it's still steps in the right direction. We're not there yet, but there we were, you know, 10,000 people at the City Hall. And I did see loads of people, young boys, young girls. That's the thing as well. Completely mixed audiences.

Everyone just enjoying it, having a good time. It's just, it's a national game and people are loving it. It's one of the things that Rachel Yankee was saying to me yesterday when I was speaking to her for a piece was that she's been a box park for every single England game and she said that on Sunday

one of the things she's looking forward to most is the atmosphere she said obviously what happens on the pitch matters but if anything she's looking more forward to the atmosphere and what it feels like around the stadium and in box park each time it's just like with every game with every win the momentum has really grown the crowds have grown the like engagement has grown and you know she's been sitting around young lads watching and enjoying a game in exactly the same way they were with the men's and that has been the most like extraordinary thing to see and that she didn't really expect it to necessarily permeate that that deep how many messages have you had Susie about uh people asking if they can get tickets oh god so many so many I

think people have people think the press have way much more power than they do honestly like I just it's horrible saying no, right, as well. I mean, I bought tickets for my husband and son when they very, very first went on sale like over a year ago or whatever it was. And that is the only tickets that I have for this game for them to go to and the only tickets I will ever have access to.

Do you know what? It's brilliant that everyone's scrambling to get a ticket. It's absolutely fantastic. But with that, we unfortunately see the touts then hiking prices through the roof, which is infuriating. Oh, it's absolutely mad. I mean, like four or five hundred quid on eBay, I think someone was saying the other day,

like in a sort of twisted way, I suppose it's a compliment to the growth of the game, but it's obviously also awful that, you know, there's so many people still scrambling for tickets I was you know chatting to a few people um over um the equal playing fields like equality summit uh today and today yesterday is also going on today and a few of them haven't got tickets and they're like real kind of like leaders in the world of women's sport like real pioneers and I was just like oh man I wish I

could find you a ticket and they're like you know kind of scrabbling around to you know try and get into this game and then you've got towels hiking ticket prices up well beyond what people like them could ever afford and it's just really disappointing that that element is allowed to seep into things like there's got to be some kind of like way to stop that from happening right like there's got to be some kind of way of limiting bulk purchases of the tickets as soon as they go on sale and things like that to stop touts like ramping up I guess if they haven't figured out to do it in every other like ticketed event in the world ever then maybe it's not that possible but it feels like it feels like a problem that they don't really

care about solving, generally speaking. And I say they, I don't mean UEFA or the FA, but just generally those in charge of events more broadly. Do you feel like when we look at the earlier games, you know, I remember we talked a few weeks ago and it was a bit of a question, you know, the smaller stadiums in a group stages, that this mix between playing in really big stadiums which we're hoping to get great attendances and then some of the games being sort of consigned to these these much smaller venues do we look back on that now and sort of see it differently because I know it was it was a bit of a yeah a bit of a bone of contention back then but now you know from the pushing the Austrian agenda as I do here we've got this game coming up against England really soon just in a a couple of weeks, actually, in the World Cup qualifier. And Austria play their games in a stadium with about 4000 capacity. And we're saying, can't we sort of roll off this, the benefit of this and put it in a bigger stadium, try and sort of celebrate Austria coming back, playing this game against the finalists, England, it should be great. And can we say now, if we do move things to bigger stadiums, we can sort of expect more of this

and, you know, expect more ticket sales and enjoy the best of that, that people are fighting and competing to get tickets? Or was it sort of still the right call, do you think, for England to have these, you know, the smaller stadiums involved? For me, I think it was a balance. Like, I think the knockout stages

100% should have been at bigger grounds. You know, Bramall Lane, lovely stadium, not big enough, not accessible enough, press box not big enough. Like they could have sold out Wembley six times over for the England games, in my opinion. Like whether they should have sold out Wembley six times over and not like had other games around the country is another question. But like at least the big big men's

stadiums you know the St James's parks the Old Trafford again if necessary for a semi-final Villa Park um the Spurs stadium Stanford Bridge you know like all of those kind of stadiums that have big scope for big crowds but also like our attractions in and of themselves as well I think is quite important. You know, people want to go to those stadiums for those stadiums. Like 100%, I still look at the knockouts and think that was a huge missed opportunity. I think the group stage, there's a case for those slightly smaller grounds, maybe, because I think this tournament was very much a momentum tournament, like prior to kickoff at Old Trafford.

I don't think it necessarily sunk into popular culture quite in the way it has as they've gone on. That said, they sold out those stadiums so early that they could have easily been bigger too and been sold out. But yeah, in fact, yeah, scrap all of that. Yeah, I think they should have all been in bigger stadiums. It's so difficult, isn't it?

Because it was 2018 that they put the tender out and they did have to approach a lot of clubs to put their ground up. But again, you know, we talk about women's football being in a different place in 2009. Arguably, it was in 2018 as well. So, you know, hopefully if we ever get another opportunity to host a major tournament on

home soil then we'll we'll know exactly how to how to do it properly i tell you what i was very excited about i got a text from um uh one of my best friends saying that he got major dad brownie points for having booked the final tickets when they first came out on sale and his kids are absolutely buzzing um so really delighted about that and uh our producer jesse said uh not that she's advocating touts in any way shape or form but she said with the kind of money being offered she might actually sell her ticket just so that she can pay for a plane ticket for australia for the world cup next year uh right let's look ahead to the final itself um just as a recap, England won all three of

their group games against Austria, Norway and Northern Ireland, before then beating Spain after extra time in the quarterfinal and then Sweden 4-0 in the semifinal to book their place at Wembley's showpiece. Germany, meanwhile, beat Spain, Denmark and Finland in that so-called group of death before knocking out Austria and then France to get this far. Moyo, both sides have been really impressive so far, but perhaps would you say Germany have the slight edge in their performances or did that Sweden win for England swing the pendulum back in their favour? Oh, that's a good question.

I think England faced a lot of people that you'd expect them to be I'd probably say Germany have faced more typically hard teams than England I think the Norway game kind of skewed it for England because I think people went into it thinking it was going to be really hard and then obviously the result has now made it seem as if that wasn't a hard game um but before the game I think I would have considered that to be a tough game. I think they've both basically got strengths in the same area, which is what is actually making it difficult. I think they've both really excelled when it's come to athleticism.

And I think that's what's been the driving force between them pushing through in the competition. I think especially against like Spain, for example, they both sort of showed that the athleticism in those cases seemed to be a bit more important than the technical nuances that the Spain team has. I think Germany can say they've had a more balanced and consistent tournament in terms of like the areas they've excelled. I feel like their sort of patterns of play have been similar from the beginning to the end. I think England have actually had to slightly tweak and adapt their performances depending on who the opponent was.

We know they played slightly different against Spain. We know they played slightly different against Sweden as well. Whereas Germany, I'd say they've been pretty consistent in how they've been playing and how they've wanted to play. I don't actually think there's a proper favourite for this game coming up. Both teams haven't really been conceding. Both teams have been scoring a lot.

Both teams have beaten Spain. Both teams have't really been conceding. Both teams have been scoring a lot. Both teams have beaten Spain. Both teams have, you know, beaten good opposition along the way. And I feel like it's just going to come down to who takes those key moments. Yeah, I think that's a really good point, actually. Anita, you've obviously been there, done it, unfortunately ended up losing to Germany. How are the players going to be feeling now? Are they going to be feeling, as Moyo said, that this is such a tight game and taking chances is going to be key? Yeah, I think the England girls are going to have a lot of confidence, but they're also going to have respect for Germany, as we all do.

All the players that have ever played in the women's game know about German's legacy and history of dominance in European competitions. So they're not a team to be underestimated. These are probably two of the best managers in the competition as well. And both teams have an equal amount of depth in the squad that they can call upon in terms of if they need players to come on and impact the game. So it's a very tight even contest in that respect. I think the form of England as,

you know, ebbed and flowed in terms of performances, but, you know, Serena Wiegmann has made good decisions in pivotal moments that has swung momentum. And of course, England being the favourites, I think momentum is key. Having that crowd, the fan behind the team is really going to help in those difficult moments because you expect the best teams in the world to create opportunities on you. You know, and I think that will happen. But it's about how they manage the game. But I think they'll be feeling confident because of what they've experienced. You know, the game they had against Spain wasn't easy. They had to find a way. They rode a lot of pressure against Sweden the first 15, 20 minutes.

But they showed character and resilience and they found a way to get that momentum back. And that will make them feel like they have another tool in their armour, kind of, to deal and handle some of that adversity that you get in football. And that's what football is. It's all about momentum and shifts in the game and how you control it and how you capitalise in those pivotal moments. So, yeah, I think it's going to be a very exciting game, hopefully. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Tom, we've kind of got a Germany side who are going to be relishing, I'm sure, playing against England at Wembley.

We've seen them be successful against England at Wembley in recent times as well. They've also played eight and won eight European Championship finals, which is just incredible. What's the reaction been like about their lead up into this final? I think much as it has been in England, it's like we saw these two teams just start to stand out above all others in the group stages. And you wonder, is it going to be those two that meet in the final? And often it isn't when that happens. But this time, of course, it was. And I think Germany have looked at the men's Euros last year. Just the fact that it's at Wembley again, it's England again. And they're saying,

you know, look what Italy did. You know, we can come and spoil this party. And they, as you say, you know, they've got incredible experience in tournament finals.

They're a virtually unstoppable team when they get to finals. So they're relishing this moment. They're happy to be playing against England to sort of celebrate this, this huge occasion. You know, it would have been a great game against Sweden too, but it's not the same, is it?

And I think they're up for that. And they've been, they've been very positive, you know, the way they've played, the way they've got through. My personal hope is that as a man with two hats, you know, the Austria-England hats, that Austria actually sort of showed England maybe a bit of a blueprint of how to get at Germany. Because I thought, you know, Austria played quite a swashbuckling game against Germany and had them, they left themselves open, yes. But then Austria had Germany sort of rocking quite a few times in the match, you know, hitting the woodwork three or four times. And really, I wondered, you know, does that expose some stuff for Serena Wiegmann? You know, not that she needs any extra motivation or any extra match footage to watch, but, you know, there has been stuff in the tournament and France had a very good spell against Germany too. So they're very much up for it. They've incredibly good but at the same time I think there is a way past them they're not the unstoppable force that they once were perhaps and remember but people coming into the tournament were saying oh they haven't done as well in recent years you know maybe this isn't one for them but you write off Germany at your peril don't you really yeah absolutely and we'll talk about some

of their young talent that they've got coming through in a second. But Susie, we had a question from a friend of the pod, Marianne Naz. She said, does Russo start ahead of Ellen White? I feel like I've agreed with literally every other she's made like Russo's come off the bench and scored what four goals in five substitute appearances it's hard to knock that impact you know if you stick Russo on the bench I wrote it a piece if you stick Russo in the starting lineup and Ellen on the bench do you have the same impact off the bench they're waiting for you you don't Ellen doesn't have the same pace to run at like slightly tiring legs like late on in a game Beth England hasn't had any minutes has looked a little bit off pace in like pre-tournament like there's not many options there in terms of like out and out centre forwards to come off the sidelines and really make an impact and it's worked every time yes against Spain like maybe if she had started,

maybe the start would have been a little bit different. But does it matter when you go on and win in style and change the game in that way with, you know, with those changes coming on a little bit later? I think that, yeah, Rousseau's done such a good job off the bench. You run the risk of messing with that formula yeah and I think Susie that people forget this is part of football this can also be part of your tactical plan to utilize players a certain way substitutions are part of the game it's not a

negative part of football you know I think often people look at it that way it's about the squad as well and the impact they can have. And Russo has been able to come on, play with freedom, express herself, pose different problems and questions to the opposition. Whilst Ellen, you know, she is dogged in her work, both in and out of possession. She's making defenders sweat for long periods of time. And I know as a defender, when you have played up against a player that's constantly harassing you, constantly drawing you into places that you don't want to get to. And then you see someone like Russo warming up on the side to come on, you're thinking, for God's sake, I don't want to have to go up against this player now when I've been running,

you know, 17 minutes in my legs and I'm getting tired, getting mentally tired and she's fresh and she's got the spark and she's fresh and she's got the spark and she's got the kind of youthful energy as well and spirit. You don't want to come against that. You want someone who's going to stand still and make your life easy. So, it's really working. The formula is working and in Serena, we trust. Absolutely. And actually you talk about the impact substitutes can make and she's hardly been a a bit part player but she's played a different role in this squad than she has done before Anita I want to give a little bit of love to to Jill Scott she was obviously uh the only

player from that 2009 team still in the squad now how much of a legend is she and I mean just give all the love to Jill Scott. Have we got enough time to cover Jill Scott? We could do an entire pod couldn't we? Exactly is there enough adjectives to describe Jill Scott like she's just a wonderful human being you know she's got such personality she makes everyone laugh everyone feel comfortable she's a proper leader on and off the pitch she's exemplary in her professionalism she has got the biggest engine of any player I've ever played with you know played with her throughout the youth national teams all the way through to senior level and she would just work tirelessly for the team in both directions but you know it's the impact she has as well off the pitch you can see the players they trust her they love her and I mean we could

just go on and on and on you know about just how great she is and she's got such good social intelligence as well you know she kind of can roam between all the different generations in the squad as well and I think that's what Serena as well has been able probably to lean on her a little bit in that regard in terms of you know when times have been difficult maybe in terms of the games or the performances I'm sure she's one of the players in the locker room going around the room geeing the girls up reminding them that they should have the belief and trust in their ability yeah 100 percent um right in terms of match-ups moyo who are you looking forward to seeing go up against each other on the pitch um definitely lena oberdorf

i know that she's going to be moving a lot around midfield i think that typically people have been saying the match-up is going to be her on walsh but i think it's actually going to be moving a lot around midfield I think that typically people have been saying the matchup is going to be her and Walsh but I think it's actually going to be closer to her and Stamley probably and I think that's going to be a funny matchup to be honest because they're both extremely tenacious like they both definitely don't mind putting a foot in I think both of them should strap up in terms of um shin pads because it's gonna get it's gonna get messy I think um I think that's gonna be a really good matchup to be. I think they've both got a good technical level, as well as both of them having a really good athletic level as well. And I think what's helped Oberdorf especially

is that the German league has been so competitive this season. I think her coming into this Euros, she's come off a season that has been a confidence builder for her. Because not only has she played a pivotal part to the team, but her team has also done well. So I think that's going to be really good. and also with Stanway going to Germany next season I think that it's going to be a good taste start of what is to come for next season especially and then obviously I have to say um Pop versus versus Bright although that is the matchup I think we think we're going to see but I can very much see Pop sort of leaning more towards Leah Williamson.

If Germany get their tactics right, that would be the matchup they would be trying to push. But obviously, if England get their tactics right, the tactic they'd be trying to push would be for Bright to be on Pop because of her aerial ability. Yeah, that's a really good point. Tom, what have you made of this German team? Because we talked about Alessia Russo being such a young player and one for the future for England, one for the present actually, but the Germans have some fantastic young players as well. Moyo just mentioned Lena Oberdorf, she's 20. Clara Buhl, if she plays, 21. Eula Brand is 19. Julia Gwynne's 23. I mean,

we're likely to see this core group of players for a few more tournaments to come. Yeah, definitely bodes very well for Germany in the future. And I think three of the players you picked out there were kind of under the radar in the game against France and they actually did really well. Lena Orbidov, of course, you know, she wasn't so much under the radar.

She very much got active in the midfield and looked very, very good at her age. And I think it's absolutely right to pick out, you know, the strength of the league very, very good at her age. And I think it's absolutely right to pick out, you know, the strength of the league in Germany now is really helping them. But Julia Gwin, right back, you know, she was one who didn't really, I wouldn't say she shone against France, but still very, very solid when you consider the age and Jewel Brand as well, another one.

You know, she didn't get a goal. She didn't get an assist. Nonetheless, put in a very, very good shift. And those will be key players. And Germany seems to have this blend that everybody talks about having and talks about when you when you look at a tournament team it's the the blend of youth and experience but Germany have absolutely got that nailed on at the moment and you can see how that's allowing the older players to shine as well Poppy in the final the the golden boot race is almost as

interesting as the race for the title itself and I you know, one of the matchups for me is also going to involve Melle Fromms. You know, if Beth Mead can get past Melle Fromms early doors, it could completely change the game. Yeah, for sure. And everybody on the pod nodding along as you were saying that. Tom, we're going to let you get off to watch some cars drive around a track. Enjoy. Thanks very much. Cheers. Moyo, always a pleasure. You've got a meeting to get to. Enjoy the final. Come on, England.

Absolutely. That's it for part one. In part two, we'll be looking to the future and discussing what the legacy of England reaching the final will be on women's football in the UK. So as you know, this podcast is supported by Visa. And over the next few minutes, we're going to talk about one of their initiatives that's helping ensure the future of women's football.

Along with being a proud sponsor of UEFA Women's Euro 2022, they're committed to supporting female footballers on and off the pitch, which is where their career development programme, the second half, comes in. Someone currently on that programme is Manchester United's Lucy Staniforth. Lucy, so lovely to see you. You've had an incredible senior career that began at the age of 16, still at the pinnacle, but you've also been thinking about life after your playing career for quite some time now, haven't you?

Yeah, I think education's always been something that has played a big role in my life. I think it was something that I found to be really invigorating off the pitch, meeting new people, you know, opening my sort of horizons beyond the playing bubble of football and understanding what goes on in the background almost for everyone to perform functionally on the pitch. So your master's in sport and directorship what exactly do you want to take from that? I think the the sort of name is in the title that's sort of what I would love to see myself in and you know in a few years time I think I look at the growth of the women's game and how you know a head of women's football and a sporting directorship role is becoming more prevalent I think there's

definitely room for it to grow and for clubs to take that on board and for the future of women's football it's probably really important to make those decisions for the good of the women's game. Yeah, it really is. And I suppose the people at Visa's second half programme are helping you and supporting you in this dream. How much has their support helped you? Without Visa, I wouldn't have been put in contact

with my new mentor, Jackie, who is a woman in a really prominent position and I think for women to be able to aspire to have those high roles within football clubs and other businesses you have to be able to see it and to lean on their guidance and expertise and obviously I would really recommend it to anyone out there who's playing at the moment. Brilliant. Lucy Staniforth, soon to be Director of Football. I look forward to what's next. Thank you so much for your time and best of luck with everything going forward. Now back to the show. Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Now we're very lucky to be joined by Kelly Simmons, director of the Women's Professional Game for the FA.

Kelly, lovely to see you. Saw you last at Bramall Lane and you were predicting a 3-1 England win. They went even better than that. How have you been enjoying the Euros? I've been loving it. It's been an incredible moment, obviously, for the Women's Game. I've loved how the nations got behind the team. I've loved how England have performed, played wonderful football under Serena. It's just been an absolute privilege to be there. And yeah, I underestimated, didn't I, our semi-final. But what an incredible victory

that was. And of course, now all eyes on Sunday. And I've had this strange calmness and confidence all through the tournament. But I'm sure come five o'clock, I'll be in the house. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And actually, Max Rushton, who presents the Guardian Football Weekly, wrote an article in the Guardian that we'll discuss a bit later, saying exactly that, that he's felt quite calm. And I wonder whether that's the calmness that Serena has brought to this squad,

because I've talked to the players about that. And Lucy Bronze, I know you did an article with her, Susie, the other day, and she was saying exactly the same thing. Yeah, I mean, they all say it. They all say that the atmosphere and the vibe around camp is just really really relaxed and Alessia Russo's goal speaks to that um because there's just this I suppose like lack of fear um and you know real like confidence in in the fact that you can take risks um without pressure and repercussions or whatever that may be, that the vibe among the team is so depressurised that they have the confidence to do things like that

is really, really kind of exciting. Yeah, it really is. And you do see that when you go to the Lensbury. But of course, a lot of these players know each other as well, don't they, Kelly? Because it has been so great to see so many players from the WSL starring throughout the tournament not just for England but 11 of the 12 WSL clubs represented through their players this summer what kind of impact do you think the tournament's going to have on

on the coming season perhaps? I think firstly you know thank you to the clubs because you know without the work that the clubs have done to develop the players and to help build such a competitive, compelling women's Super League, without that, England obviously wouldn't be able to be where they are. Now, I think obviously this has put women's football, given women's football a completely different level of profile. It was building profile, it was building audiences. But this has been absolutely incredible.

And I would expect Sunday's game will probably be the biggest TV viewing number of the year of any programme. I mean, it's absolutely huge. So, you know, our job with the clubs is obviously to keep building on that and to make sure that we convert those fans who've seen world-class women's football, get the message out there that a lot of those players are playing in the WSL and they can continue to see great football into next season, whether that's watching through our partnership with BBC and Sky

or whether that's hopefully coming along and clicking through the turnstiles and helping us to grow tendencies. So, you know, this tournament has made those players, if they weren't already, it's absolutely made them household names. And so now, you know, it's really all of our job to get those fans to continue following the best leads and the Russos and all those players who've just lit up the tournament and, yeah, won the hearts of the nation. Yeah, they really have. And we've actually already seen that, haven't we? Because Reading have sold more season tickets than they did last year and we're starting to see that that progressing but how are other clubs and and you at the FA looking to take the interest into 2022-23 what what practically can you do?

Well obviously the work's already started so you know we've got a fantastic platform with BBC and Sky and you know we're getting some of the biggest audiences in sport. And hopefully that will be working with our broadcast partners and with our clubs to pick great games, put them in the best slots that we can and build those audiences and signpost people to be able to watch the game. And then with the clubs, you know, you'll see announcements

coming up where they've identified games, where they want to put them in the main stadium. And really, I think sort of go back to, but even bigger than after the World Cup, you know, where we had some fantastic attendances. We'd really work hard on putting our best games in the best slots to drive attendances and audiences. And I know the clubs have got some really good plans around that and i think that's really really important so i think it's sort of you know obviously we got sort of cut back a bit by being behind closed doors for so long this gives us a fantastic chance i think to kick on again and we're investing in the championship as well and we've got a big investment program going into those clubs to support them with people to help build

the clubs so there's a lot going on in the championship and I think right through the pyramid you'll see an impact whether that's more people wanting to play or it's more people wanting to watch their local team whether WSL. Okay so you predicted 3-1 for the semi-final what is your prediction for Sunday? I'll say that is the most rotten. It's really strange because even in the Spain game with about 10 minutes to go, we were one down and everybody around me was starting to get very, very edgy. I just had this real confidence that we were going to equalise and go on to win the game. I think in Serena, I trust it'll be a really tough game.

Of course it will. Germany are incredibly impressive, super organised, fantastic players. And I thought they'd beat France, even though France are a wonderful side with great flair and absolutely love watching them. But I did think that sort of Germany's organisation and experience and that tournament machine that they are it's incredible you know I thought that they would come through that I'm obviously going to go

for England win I guess I feel it's our moment you know I really do I mean whatever incredibly proud of Serena and the players and they have done so much for the women's game and if we can go on and win on Sunday it'd be a dream come true for all of us including everybody on this podcast many many many others who fought for so long to to get to this point absolutely very very well said Kelly enjoy the final see you there looking forward to it can't wait absolutely can't. I'm so excited. Brilliant. Kelly Simmons there, Director of the Women's Professional Game for the FA. Susie, an interesting question that I keep getting asked very regularly

and actually irks me a little bit, but it equally is a very fair question. If England don't go on and win the final on Sunday, is it failure in your opinion? I don't think so. I think not reaching the semi-final would have been, sorry, not reaching the final would have been a failure. Is it failure in your opinion? I don't think so. I think not reaching the semifinal would have been, sorry, not reaching the final would have been a failure.

I was very worried in the Spain game, unlike Kelly, where I thought that it would be an absolutely huge failure if they limped out of that stage, especially in the manner that the game was playing out you know the the way that Spain were dominating I was just really really worried that that would really badly impact things and it'd be such a limp exit the final like everyone knows finals are very very difficult I don't you know I don't think anyone would look at last summer and the men and say that that was a failure and I don't necessarily think that people will look at it as a failure if we don't win this I mean believe me there are plenty of people that say well you know you know the kind of world we live in that's true but the people that we care about

you know outside the the misogynistic trolls of the world I don't think you know anyone that takes the game seriously I don't think we'll fit we'll see it as a failure it will be hugely disappointing um like we can't underestimate I don't think anyone will the like strength of this Germany team and also their experience in this tournament but also like Serena Wiegmann is like less than 12 months into this job. You know, it's still quite new. I don't think we're seeing a full, you know, Serena Vigman England team yet. Like next summer at the World Cup, that's when we'll really, really see the much deeper impact of her influence over the squad in particular. And that is pretty exciting for me but yeah like I wouldn't write it up as a failure it would be hugely disappointing but there's just so much good to take away from it the biggest disappointment would be the you

know the effect uh more broadly um because obviously being so so close to winning and having in the backs of minds exactly what a first major tournament victory for an England senior side since 1966 could have, especially it being a women's team, just more broadly generally in society. We're so close to it. I find it hard to articulate what that impact could be. I think it finally creates a new narrative, is what it does. Because we've had the same narrative for such a long time that it's become ingrained and almost lazy. Totally. Like, yeah, I completely agree with that.

And I mean, you know, I was chatting to Aoife Mannion yesterday and she was talking about the little village team that she's helping set up a girls side with. And she went and spoke in a school ahead of the Spain game and was, you know, telling some of the kids about the game that night and who Spain were. And, you know, she's not a teacher. She doesn't really know how engaged kids are when she's talking to them. But saying, you know, we're setting up this little team in this village near where she lives. And, you know, if they're interested,

they should sign up. And the game's on BBC at eight o'clock. Everyone knows where that is. That's so accessible. And now she tweeted that they've had so much take up, so many registration forms submitted by parents of their girls desperate to join uh the team the new team they're setting up that they had enough for three teams uh when i spoke to her she said they've actually got enough for six teams

and this is in a tiny village like she was saying she grew up in a in a town which didn't have a girls team where she could play football the idea of this tiny little village is a village on the edge of a bigger town and is one of like six villages on the edge of this bigger town and in this little village there could potentially be six girls teams come September was just mind-blowing and like that and how much further that could go if England win like it's pretty exciting but I do think you know we're already seeing that that will happen anyway but it's just like extrapolated so so much further if England win that tournament. I think for me what would be the failure is not capitalizing off the momentum

of this tournament and you know the impact that it's having and we're seeing it have as it's developed and as it's gone on. If we don't make the most of this moment, turn these words into action, actually start getting, supporting those smaller clubs, as you mentioned, Susie, that are starting to grow and want to make an impact in their local areas, then it will be all for nothing. You know, if we can't get butts in seats at WSL and Championship and down the pyramids across the season, you know,

I think the fan experience has been wonderful and amazing for people to see. And we have to replicate that domestically in the league so that fans can go to games. They have just an amazing experience being at those WSL clubs and Championship clubs as well. You literally took the words out of my mouth, Anita, because I was going to ask you about that. So in total, to kind of sum everything up, what would you think the legacy of Euro 2022 is going to be? Well, I think finally we're getting to shift the narrative. People, whether you're cross-gender, whatever, are going, this is a wonderful spectacle of sport with some of the best athletes in the world performing to such a high level. the women's game deserves for where it's at for the investment and the development that's gone into it it's still growing still developing but it's managed to capture as Kelly said earlier

the hearts and minds of of the nation and they've witnessed this journey they've jumped on board and they've been extremely supportive so now it's, of course, we always talk about growing participation that inevitably will happen, but it's giving the opportunity for the game to be visible as it has been across broadcasting units and also through print media and getting women's stories and the game itself on the front pages, you know and and allowing people to really be inspired and I think you'll see people inspired of all ages across gender by this lioness side and and that's exactly the point isn't it with the visibility of this England side and it's not about taking headlines away from male teams or anything about that. It's about celebrating sport.

And this has been a fantastic spectacle, this entire tournament, whether you've been on the way from the beginning, joined it in the middle, or are just there for the kind of final hurrah. It's been wonderful from start to finish. Interesting as well that it has transcended lots of different places

because Leeds United tweeted out the other day that they've moved their pre-season friendly against Cagliari to 6.45

Manchester United haven't moved theirs apparently they did look into the possibility of moving it it's a 4pm kick-off of course

the final kicks off at 5pm but 60,000 still expected at Old Trafford for their friendly against Rio Vallecano. But, you know, it's a conversation that people are having, isn't it? Do you remember not that long ago

when West Ham had made the final of the FA Cup and there were many West Ham fans who were furious that their Premier League match hadn't been changed in order for them to get to Wembley and make the final? You know, these are important conversations. But another important conversation is what our plans are for Sunday. I'm assuming that you're both going to be at the game. Definitely. Would not miss this for anything.

How are you watching it, Anita? Who are you going with? Well, Beth and I are going, but I'm actually working the game. But obviously, it's going to be fantastic to be there and work on it as well. You know, talk about the players, talk about the game. And it's going to be another moment of where were you on this you later on today at the Lensbury but I do want some winner and score predictions Susie has already predicted so let me just fill Anita in on what happened in yesterday's pod so as you know Susie Rack's predictions this entire tournament have been shockingly bad like so bad however because she's such an amazing writer we completely forgive her because it's football's not about predictions. It's what happens, isn't it, on the pitch. However, Susie did predict originally that England were going to win.

And I said, no, no, no, no, no. You need to change that because otherwise, clearly, Germany are going to win. So it's a little bit confusing. But who are you going for, Anita Asante? And I believe in your predictions. Oh, you do? I've only got one right, I think. Oh, no.

We're in trouble. The previous game. Of course, I'm going with a Lioness win, but I think it's going to be tight. So I'm going to say 2-1 England. You've got a score to Susie? I'll say in the interest of not messing things up 2-1 to Germany brilliant okay so who's walking away with the golden boot Beth Mead Alex Popp or Alessia Russo

Anita oh that's a good one um I'm gonna go with Beth Mead Susie Alex Poppp and even if England win which is what I hope but obviously don't predict I think Germany will score and I think Popp could still get the golden boot potentially as well it's not an unheard of thing Jodie Taylor got the golden boot in 2017

without getting beyond the semi-final so yeah I think that she's just so phenomenally good and so difficult to play against and stop that I think if Germany are going to score, she's going to be the one to score. So yeah, I think she could still grab the golden boot from Beth, unfortunately.

Okay, just finally, I touched on it earlier on in terms of nerves and Kelly was saying that she wasn't actually feeling that nervous and there's an interesting piece in in the Guardian today Susie from Max Rushton talking about how nerveless he feels ahead of the final and he was kind of questioning whether or not that's a result of the England team being more unfamiliar to him perhaps or whether it's some underlying sexism how nervous are you feeling not nervous really um I was like very nervous at various points of this tournament the Spain game obviously although like

and then I was really surprised to hear the players say oh yeah we won't have a stall we always knew we were gonna win like we just we were fine of course they were gonna um we you know we felt fine on the pitch like there was there was never anything we were worried to say that. We, you know, we felt fine on the pitch. Like there was, there was never anything we were worried about. And that was like slightly surreal because, you know, in the context of me, like literally like going, oh my God, I don't want to write about this exit. That was a real strange feeling. I mean, I don't have any nerves.

I didn't have any nerves against Sweden until about three minutes before kickoff. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh God, I'm crippled. But yeah, I don't think there's obviously a lot at stake. But also, I just think there's not that much at stake. Like I said, I don't think it's going to be a failure if England lose this final. And I sort of just, I just feel happy that I've been able to watch this tournament and watch this team play with such freedom and without pressure. And I don't want to put any more pressure on them by having like these nerves

and this weight of expectation like that I feel for them. Like all I want is to watch them go out, have fun and fight. As long as I see that I'm happy, win or lose. I agree with that. Anita, how do you happy win or lose I agree with that Anita how do you feel yeah I agree that too um I was nervous I think after watching Germany v France and I think that was my emotional state was just heightened by that game and watching obviously Alexandra Pop being as ruthless as she was but I think I've steadily got calmer and I think I'm calmer now as well, just knowing that England are in the final.

I think all those nerves were building up up until this point, but now they're here, I feel a lot calmer and I feel like more reassurance because it's easier maybe when they've been, to say, playing well for 90 plus minutes in every game and rolling over teams to go, oh, it's just going to be another game.

They'll be fine. But to see them actually fight, work really hard against some difficult opponents in difficult moments when they haven't had momentum, haven't had the ball, conceded a goal and had to find a way back that for me I feel even more calm now because I'm just I have so much trust in in the girls and what they can do and I know when they get to their quality they have all the gears in them so for that reason I just feel really excited more than anything to watch them go out and hopefully shackles off and show everyone what they're about I'm excited as well. And I tell you what I'm also excited about, what I'm about to say to both of you. Anita Asante, it's been a pleasure.

See you at Wembley. See you at Wembley. Can't wait. Susie Rack, see you at Wembley. You'll find me in a puddle of tears. Either way. Hopefully happy tears. Happy tears, please.

That's it from us we'll be back on Sunday night when we'll know whether Germany have secured a ninth European championship title or if England

have won their first international tournament since 1966 The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver and Jessie Parker-Humphreys

with additional help from Silas Gray and George Cooper music composition was by Laura Iredale. And our executive producers are Chessie Bent, Danielle Stephens and Max Sanderson. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is supported by Visa. Do you have business insurance?

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