The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Lionesses roar into Wembley final – Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Faye Carruthers, Suzanne Wrack, Ceylon Andi Hickman and Jonathan Liew react as England progress to the final of Euro 2022 after sweeping aside the Swedes. Plus, will it be France or Germany who they meet at Wembley on Sunday evening?

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Rampant, rambunctious, riveting and riotous fun by the end of it with Russo stealing the headlines after that naughty backheel. The 13-year wait is over. England are into a major tournament final for the first time since 2009. 4-0, cruising, no stress. Were we even watching England? We'll reflect on a special night for the Lionesses against Sweden. Look ahead to Germany-France. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is supported by Visa,

a proud sponsor of UEFA Women's Euro 2022. During UEFA Women's Euro 2022, Visa will celebrate individual excellence by sponsoring the Play of the Match Trophy, awarded to the player who displays amazing skill and determination in each game. The Play of the Match Trophy champions the values of female empowerment, diversity and equality, which are the driving forces behind visa's work in supporting women's football find out more at theguardian.com slash all hyphen win what a panel we have suzy rack all i can say is thank God for your terrible predictions.

Your dark horses have bolted. Yeah, I'm quite relieved that my predictions have continued to epically fail all the way through. Listen, I still have your charger from Switzerland. I brought it with me to the game last night and I didn't give it to you. It is now my superstition that I cannot return that charger to you until England have won the final. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I mean, I'm not likely to go back to Switzerland before then. So, you know, I think we're right on that score.

Yeah, you might be busy the next few days, perhaps. Johnny Liu, massive FOMO. We missed you last night. Yeah, I mean, I'm in Germany. I watched it on the telly and the commentators were really not getting into it at all. When Russo scored that goal, he went, Ja, ein dritter Tor for England. Russo. And that was it.

That was it. So I feel like I've missed out on a few emotions. Yeah, it might be a bit different tonight. We shall see. Salon Hickman how is the voice I saw you with the strepsils it's really at an all-time low I'd say I'd say comparable voices have been after Beyonce's set at Glastonbury and um yeah I'm okay with it I'm quite happy sounding like this sorry to any listeners that can't deal with this grating voice but

it's a product of this tournament. I love it. It feels like we're listening to late night love. It's wonderful. Right, the biggest ever margin of victory in a semi-final at any Euros, as well as being Sweden's heaviest defeat in the competition. We've laughed a bit at Susie, obviously,

but I don't think anyone quite predicted a game like last night, except for Farrah Williams, who confidently said on the BBC 4-0. Absolutely unbelievable. She's getting my lottery tickets. In fact, she's just my guiding light for the rest of my life. She didn't look quite so confident, sat in front of me halfway through that game. Were any of us, were any of us were any

of us confident particularly after the first 25 minutes but have faith in Serena Vigman goals from Beth Mead Lucy Bronze Alessia Russo and of course Frank Kirby securing a comfortable win for England in the end the scenes at the end were quite incredible actually I always have to run off to the tunnel straight away but I keep the game on my iPad and I'm listening obviously to the commentary as well while I'm setting up to do the post-match and I would say the majority of the girls just looked a bit yes we've done this brilliant amazing calm and then the camera pan to Ellen White who was just red-faced and struggling to hold the emotion back and I thought it kind of sums it up it was incredible Johnny what did you make of it

all obviously you weren't able to to be there but even just watching that afterwards yeah they seem torn I think between knowing that this is not the end and that they have a monumental mountain to climb on Sunday against Germany or France. And so feeling the need to kind of staunch that emotion and yet feeling it all the same, feeling that they've conquered this incredible challenge and been on this amazing journey and wanting to let it all out, but not feeling like they can really. And I think that's why, you know, we saw some of these strange reactions at the end. And it was the same after the Spain game. They've achieved so much and yet the job is still absolutely not done.

It was an amazing performance and result from the point of view of their primary function, which was qualifying for the final. In terms of actually winning the thing, I don't know, part of me wonders whether they it's it's they it would have been better for them to have to to fight a little bit more especially in the second half the next few days are just going to be this roller coaster the likes of which very few of us have ever experienced and certainly they'll never have experienced every single you know family member and friend is going to be in touch,

saying, good luck, can we get tickets, whatever. Every microphone that's shoved into their face and every question they're going to be asked is, what would it mean to win the Euros? What would this mean? They're going to be forced to contemplate this incredible thing. The next few days are going to be really tough for them emotionally to try and concentrate on this game that is not won

and they've not achieved anything yet. Part of me worries about that slightly. Maybe that's just, you know, the old fatalism shining through. Oh, do you know what? Those questions are old hat. I've already asked how would it feel to win the Euros. I've gone early. I went well early in the tournament, to be honest. Solon, you took a group of your football beyond borders girls to the game I mean what an experience for them yeah a moment I'll

never forget for many of them it was their first time watching the lionesses and I had they've been to a handful of football games I spoke to one of the girls on the coach on the way back who's 15 and she said that was life-changing as a 15 15-year-old, she used the word life-changing. She was like, I've never watched that team play football before. And last night was genuinely a transformational experience for her. And it was so powerful to be in that space with 40 teenage girls going crazy for these players and a particular shout out to Lotta Wubber Moy we were we were on the barrier right at the end and they were screaming obviously every player's name to come over Lotta came past said hello and then she as she was going off she turned around ran back and took off her shirt she was running towards us all and obviously I was surrounded by around 40 teenage girls screaming each of whom desperately wanted the shirt. And I stepped out and said, I'll take it.

And who do you want me to give this to in terms of we can give this to someone? And what behavior do you want us to praise? And big respect to her. She was like, I want it to go to the most competitive girl. So I was like, sick. That is perfect. Thank you. I love that.

I know. It's stunning. So we will present it today and I'll send her a little video of who it goes to and why it goes to them. But I love that I know it's stunning so we will present it today and I'll send her a little video of who it goes to and why it goes to them but I think that was just it was just the connection between this team and the fans is also something that you really feel when you're in that stadium and luckily 80,000 people get to experience that on Sunday now oh I know that you know what that whole story has just given me goosebumps and my hotel room is not cold. Susie, this is England's first final of an international tournament for the women's team since 2009.

I don't even really know how you go about summing up the journey that this team has been on. It's very hard to. And on my two hour journey to Milton Keynes last night I was reflecting on it a little bit and getting quite emotional actually having followed it through that time I think the I keep like kept thinking about is they're just really nice people as well and Salon's story shows that it actually made me tear up a little bit I really like football beyond borders on what they do um and it's nice to hear that they got a really good reception at the game. It's a really incredible journey. And I was saying last night that I really don't want to see Ellen White's tear-stained face in a semi-final again.

And then I saw Ellen White's tear-stained face but it has been grin plastered across it as well which was a significant improvement on uh the Olympics the World Cup the Euros they're just very very special people very very nice normal people intelligent people and brilliant footballers to boot in a, they should get to the final and they should win at Wembley because they've had an environment created for them that is vastly superior to, I think, probably what any other team has in Europe and possibly the world now. They're the most invested in women's national team, but they also really, really earn it it and that's really nice too yeah i think anybody who's spent any time with this squad over the past few years would absolutely echo what you say there

suzy because they are so grounded and down to earth right we really need to talk about the game like we could just wax lyrical about the fact that England are into the the final of the European Championships but let's find out how exactly they did it perhaps some mind games by the Sweden coach Peter Gerhardsen Johnny because no surprises from Serena we thought there might be one but she stuck to her guns unchanged but Peter Gerhardsen Jonna Andersson returned but to the bench and we were led to believe perhaps because she didn't train in their matchday minus one training, that perhaps she wasn't recovered quickly enough from COVID. Sophia Jakobsen came in on the right for the first time this tournament and Hannah Glass was pushed out to left back.

Amanda Ilsted left to deal with Lauren Hemp on the left wing. What did you make of those changes? I mean, the thing about this Sweden team is that the core of that side have been together for such a long period of time and they all know their roles so well that they can rotate with, I guess, less of the disruption that you might find with other teams.

They were pretty well organised. You could argue that that was their best performance of the tournament, actually. Could easily have gone ahead after, what, 20 seconds? And for the first half hour, they were absolutely in that game. They pressed, I thought, really well. They defended really well.

And there was a period during which England were probably thinking, well, how are we going to break them down? And as Wiegmann said afterwards, they found solutions on the pitch the second goal was absolutely crucial in terms of just breaking Sweden's spirit and England I think realised from that point that they were the better team

and just knowing that and expecting to create chances and expecting to score it has a really kind of demotivating effect on a team because from that moment on Sweden looked like it was it was kind of a form of damage control for them yeah very much so how are you feeling at half time Susie because even before that the Bethmead goal went, obviously it was a frenetic game, I think is the best way to describe that opening. 25, 30 minutes and England felt as if they were hanging on a little bit as well.

Both teams using long balls over the top to try and open each other up and it was kind of working, kind of not. But what happened with the opening goal just seemed to completely suck the life out of Sweden. Yeah, and as Jonny said, it totally lifted England. I mean, the whole dynamic of the game and the atmosphere in the stadium, the just belief of the players, I don't know, just totally shifted at that moment.

It was so pinpointable um as a moment that changed the game it sort of told England that they could do it um in a way that you know it took them a little bit longer to do against Spain just the second they scored this belief course through them and that's that's, I'm throwing ahead a little bit, but it's my one fear of the final is if they don't score, if they fall behind, like, can they get back into it? Yes, they've done it against Spain, but it's a sort of different kettle of fish, you know, in a final. But, you know, when they go ahead, they don't give up a lead.

And that's confidence if you're willing to throw out the squad. I think the other thing is with Sweden is absolutely blistering the first 30 minutes but this tournament has sort of shown that this Sweden team is heading towards

a period of transition in that obviously they've not got Nia Fischer anymore because she's retired. You know, they had Hedvig Lindahl in goal obviously did not have the best game but she's 39. Caroline Seager you know, has uh Hedwig Lindahl in goal obviously did not have the best game she's 39 Caroline Seager you know has been in and out with injury and stuff in this tournament and she

37 years old 230 odd caps so like they've got a sort of generation there that are on their way out and have been extremely important to the team but they're sort of in the process of transitioning some in some of the younger players like Hannah Bennison and players like that so they've almost gone past the point at which it was their moment to win a major tournament with the semi-final third place playoff games in 2019 at the world cup with the olympics missing out on gold on penalties to canada huge blow um losing um the 2016 olympic final as well they had three chances they missed them and i don't think they're going to be as competitive potentially as they were in in 2019 at the World Cup next summer I do think it's going to be a couple of years a few years of

sort of shifting sands of the Sweden team. I feel as if Magda Eriicsson thinks that as well I saw her in the mix zone speaking to Swedish television and she was in floods of tears and struggling to keep it together did as a as a consummate professional obviously but um yeah I I think you're exactly spot on there Susie it feels like a massive chance missed for this particular Sweden side. And they're a Sweden side, Salon, who we've been used to watching in this tournament and previously, you know, that have been superior defensively. But last night, they couldn't deal with that ball into the box from Lauren Hemp that then went out to Lucy Bronze with that first time ball into Beth Mead. The volley into the back of the net after stopping it first time ball into Beth Mead. The volley into the back of the

net after stopping it dead was just standard Beth Mead. It was incredible. She's now scored more goals than any individual players ever managed at a single women's Euros. And, you know, she deserves that after this performance. Absolutely. I think what they're producing isn't just standard wins. We're seeing phenomenal football taking place. And I think that is also what is contributing to this excitement, a bit, I'm sure, but Russo's back heel. There was just the quality on show for how they're taking their chances is just exceptional. I think as soon as Beth Mead's goal went in, you kind of knew, as I think Susie said, we're not giving up that lead. And the second goal just confirmed that. But there was a moment, I think it was around the 65th minute, where Mary Earp saves it to just knock it over the bar. And I felt like that really could have been the difference. Sweden had got one back at that time. You know, there's players in that team, there's leaders in that team that would have felt their opportunity and felt that we can get something here. We've got a lot of time and we're not going out. But Mary Earps was

absolutely critical in that win. We can talk about the goals and the finishing and the crossing and yeah, the incredible passages of play that we've seen. But without Mary Earps back there, we wouldn't be at this stage of the tournament, I think. Yeah, Jonny, that was actually crucial. Mary Earps' save. and she was called into action in the first 30 seconds as well and she had to be properly on her game. When I spoke to her afterwards actually she said the ball was just ping-ponging around the box and

she had to stay alert for the whole time and she said I don't really remember exactly what happened and I said to her don't you worry you're going to be watching it on repeat from now on but the timing of that was so so crucial at 2-0 up and Sweden starting to get a bit of momentum. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I've always had my doubts about Erp's as a keeper.

I think she's capable of outstanding saves. She's an incredible shot stopper. Going into this tournament, and actually for the know, for the last couple of years, I've worried about how she might react under pressure. And the way that she's grown into this tournament after, you know, let's face it, having very little to do in the first two or three games, the way she's grown into this tournament has been, I think, a revelation. It's been, she's in the form of her life at the moment.

And yeah, I mean, Sweden actually got through and created more chances against England than any other team, even Spain, who for all their possession didn't have that much clear-cut sighted goal against them. And if you're Germany or France watching that game back, you're probably thinking there are ways of getting around England, of getting the ball into the box but how are we going to get past mary erps she is now the sort of player that opposition teams need to need to have a plan for and the defense as well i mean you know millie bright and williamson who have who have not obviously got a lot of the plaudits but they've been so crucial not not just in terms of what they've done with the ball but in terms of the temperament and the calmness and just playing the ball out,

not making errors and clearing their lines. Just that entire England back five has been so key to setting the tone for their tournament. And yeah, I think the final is going to be a tight game. So that's just going to be so crucial. Johnny, I'm just going to stop you there and say we thought that Norway was going to be a tight game. So that's just going to be so crucial. Jonny, I'm just going to stop you there and say we thought that Norway was going to be a tight game and we thought that Sweden was going to be a tight game. So, you know, maybe, maybe we should all stop making predictions or maybe we should continue making them because let's hope the final is not a tight

game. Listen, let's just stop for a moment and appreciate the absolute worldie that Alessia Russo scored. I feel as if that is one of the best goals I've ever seen live. And I saw Eric Lamella's Rabona live, but this was just incredible. I was behind the goal and I looked at my radio colleague to my left and we just were agape, like what just happened? And it's not the first time, Susie, that we've talked about how outrageous Alessia Russo's goal was, but backheeling the rebound of her original shot through not one but two Swedish players' legs, was just beautiful. I'm just going to read out some much more impressive people than me's thoughts on it.

Ian Wright on the BBC, forget Messi, we've got Messi. She's also gone global. Tweets from Abbey Rambach, who said that she had dreamed of scoring a goal like that for her entire career. And then Sam Kerr, who tweeted, as she just keeps it short always, doesn't she? That was lit. that she had dreamed of scoring a goal like that for her entire career. And then Sam Kerr, who tweeted, as she, you know,

she just keeps it short always, doesn't she? That was lit. How lit was it, Susie Rack? Oh, it was beautiful, wasn't it? I mean, Sam Kerr was funny because she also tweeted about not caring about the Euros, not going to the tournament. So clearly she's changed the channel. It was a beautiful thing and it was just really really surprising i don't think anyone could quite believe what they had

seen let alone hedwig lindahl um but yeah we spoke to her after the match and she was she was just really frustrated that she had missed the first chance. I know! That's what she said to me. Yeah. So once it fell back to me, I just thought, what's the quickest route for me to get this ball in the back of the net? Because I should have scored in the first place. So I just swung a foot at it and luckily it went in. And yeah, just like incredibly humble. I mean, she did say that it is probably the best goal she's ever scored

and things like that as well. But a lot of people have been calling for, obviously, to start and play Savellum White. But you just think that this formula is working so well. She's so effective coming off the bench and running at sort of already tired and morale-beaten players that you're like, why would you mess with that and yeah like just wonderful wonderful experience to be a part of in that ground when that goal goes in as well

yeah it was beautiful what what did the girls think of that salon well there was just lots of screaming and uh yeah also faces of just complete and utter disbelief it's really difficult to not attribute meaning to something that is just a back heel like in essence all she did was make contact with the back of her heel to the ball and it went in a goal but I just have this tendency to be like that goal is archetypal of everything what Serena Wiegman has got this team to be and to do and to believe like you miss a chance you've got your back to goal you're in a semi-final you are a young player you're playing against world number two and you think your instinct it's an instinctual act is to say I can pull that off and do that and not only that once it then goes in you might expect

an incredibly arrogant a folded arms look at me I'm the greatest player the world has ever seen sort of celebration and really she just ran off and was just like oh my god and like sort of laughing hugging her teammates being like that just that just happened. That was wicked, wasn't it? I think that for me was like this beautiful 30 seconds of player misses a chance, player then turns around and makes a beautiful opportunity out of nothing with the highest bit of skill, which is outrageous. Player then runs off and celebrates with her mates. I'm like, that is what this England team is. And that's what the experience of being there and supporting them has been like. being there supporting them has been like it's been like of course she did that of course she did

that that is the confidence and the yeah it is an arrogance but it doesn't you don't experience it as arrogance because you don't get those moments of yeah i'm sick i'm the best player in the world you get yeah i did that and that was that was pretty cool wasn't it it's the lack of scruples isn't it it's it's the the total absenceruples, isn't it? It's the total absence of that impulse that I think anybody who has ever played football at whatever level of the game feels like, I don't want to look like an idiot.

It's such a powerful impulse. And the further up you go, the more important the stakes get, the stronger that impulse becomes almost. It's why defenders clear the ball instead of trying to thread a pass through the midfield. It's why wingers go for the cross and try and win a corner rather than try and take on take on defender that that fear of failure is just so strong and the skill itself like we could all backheel a ball the fact that she's done it there

at that moment you know she'd probably she'd probably feel quite embarrassed at missing that chance and and yet to then do that just shows how kind of uninhibited they all are it was such a telling moment it just you know like so long says it says everything about the attitude and spirit of this team they do not fear anything they are not inhibited in any way it's just what is the quickest and most efficient solution to do the thing that I want to do at this moment? And it's almost a Zen state. Something that is really strong in our methodology when we work with young people is this principle of attachment theory

and having these really strong relationships with someone that you trust, an adult. And that relationship is so important to be able to then go and take risks as a teenager, to go and experiment, because you know you have this safe and secure base to come back to. So if you make a mistake or you mess up, you always know that that's okay. And that's a really healthy pattern to go on in development. And it might sound sensationalist or ridiculous to extrapolate that to the culture

and what Serena Wiegmann has brought brought but I genuinely think she's brought these players to a point of you can go out there and you can make mistakes because it's okay this is a safe container for you to go and experiment try out and that's what gets the best out of people that's when people test themselves and push themselves out of their comfort zone because then there isn't the fear of failure that Jonathan said so I think think what, I cannot wait, there's got to be a documentary about what Serena has done in this sort of period of transformation at some point being inside that camp. There probably won't be because I think she's incredibly private about what she's actually doing. But I do think there is, yeah, there's a magic formula there and how

she's treating these players as individuals, but also the culture that she has built as a team. And that is what drives the results and the massive step change. Yeah, and actually I asked her that last night and in typical Serena Wiegmann humble style, she said all of the groundwork was done before I came in and it's all down to the players and the backroom staff. And I just laughed at her because I thought,

no, no, no, no, I've been to other tournaments with this side. We will in part two speak in depth about Serena Wiegmann. But Susie, you wanted to have another mention of Russo's goal. Yeah, no, it was just Leo Williamson said it after the Norway game. I love the quote, nobody wins afraid of losing. And that really sums up the attitude and what Solon said about Serena and the environment she's brought in is significant because it is very much designed to

to be an environment that lifts the pressure on the players and allows them to make mistakes on the pitch it should be a safe space because there's so much noise around them there's so many pressures and you know you you want them to feel completely you know at ease and able to uh make a mistake and go again and and lift the pressure in that way so yeah a real real important atmosphere she's brought around the team in that respect. Yeah, it's very similar to what Gareth Southgate has done, actually. But let's round off the goals because we really need a word on Fran Kirby, Johnny, because you claim she's the best England player we have on last night's performance. I agree.

Yeah, Kirby was sensational. Again, that link between midfield and the front three is so important. She somehow manages to find spaces that the central midfielders haven't quite covered or the fullbacks aren't quite getting across to cover and the centre-halves don't quite know whether to step up. She makes those spaces her playground and she does so much damage. The way she can take the ball under pressure and not lose it and move it on, but quickly as well, without having to take two or three touches.

That's her technical ability. That's her physical strength and the vision as well to play the pass. I mean, that little interchange with Kira Walsh for the third goal was just a sublime piece of football. And I am so pleased she got her goal. She deserved it.

You know, Lindahl got a little bit of criticism for the way that the third goal went through her legs and she got fingers to the fourth goal, but couldn't stop it. I just, honestly, she wasn't expecting any of that. And why would you? If you're a goalkeeper who's played at the top level or, you know, she'd be playing for, what,

two, three decades almost you you condition yourself to know what the the expected range of outcomes in a particular situation is and you know if a player is bearing down on goal what 20 25 yards out two defenders she expects you know that kirby's going to take a touch and maybe try and you know tuck it in the corner maybe try and go around her she's just she's just not expecting it and again that we talk about the exuberance you talk about just playing on pure instinct it's it's not so much vibes i mean vibes kind of does them a disservice it's totally drilled learned inspiration and you can teach that you can train great players to to do great things but it needs a culture and it needs a kind of an intelligent regime that allows them you know the technical and emotional framework to do that it was it was the the pièce de résistance

it was the can we swear it was the fu to to like we're It was the, can we swear? It was the FU to say, like, we're just better than you and we're going to show it. And it was kind of perfect in a way. Yeah, it really was perfect. And, you know, perfect timing to move on to part two, actually. But we will be back on Thursday and Friday to continue the conversation on England. But that is it for part one.

We will look ahead to the second semifinal, Germany versus France. And, you know, as if we're not going to continue mentioning the England score one more time. As you know, this podcast is supported by Visa. And so we wanted to take a few minutes to showcase how, as well as being a proud sponsor of UEFA Women's Euro 2022, they're financially supporting global initiatives that will help grow women's football

at all levels. This includes football camps for kids, like the one that Swiss international and PSG forward Ramona Backman helped to organise with help from Visa. Ramona, lovely to see you. You're taking part in what sounds like an incredible kids camp. You did one last year. You've got another one coming up as well. Just tell us what it's like and how did it come about?

This has been an idea which I've been playing with for a long time. And yeah, finally last year, we started with the first one. So we had two in Switzerland and this year is going to be the third one. How does it work? What do you do with them? The camps are usually two days. So there's a lot of training involved. I'm giving them some tips, some tricks. So yeah, it's a great time and it also gives me a lot of back because I can tell their faces how happy they are and that they really enjoy it. And it makes me happy too. Yeah, you can tell how passionate you are about it. As one of the biggest names in the game at the moment,

how much responsibility do you feel in terms of having to help the next generation of superstar players? I feel like with Visa supporting, investing a lot in moments football too, I just think it's really important to give something back and also to give, especially the girls and the boys, different kind of role models. Because when I was young, I didn't really know that there was any professional women's footballers, which is different now. So I know I have a lot of young girls, but also a lot of young boys that are following me and have me as their role model.

And yeah, this is really cool. It's important to give something back to the to the younger generation all the experience I have I think they can learn a lot what a fantastic role model you are Ramona thank you so much for your time and best of luck with the tournament as well thank you very much now it's back to the show welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Before we move on to that second semi-final, we touched on it a little bit in part one in terms of Serena Wiegmann's impact. But a finalist at the 2017 Euros, 2019 World Cup and now 2022 Euros with two different teams.

I'm struggling, Susie, to think of any international managers who've had the same kind of impact as her from any side of the game. And when I spoke to her after the match, I said, I can finally talk to you about a final, Serena, because she's always batted every single final question back at me. And she just smiled. It was a beam. So when I interviewed her at the Amex after that quarter

final against Spain she was a little bit manic like we're not used to seeing her like that she's normally cool calm and collected but yesterday she just looked happy which I found really interesting I feel as if for her this was job one done get them to the final and now it's the next step how do you how do you view it yeah I think it was a big step for her to come to England without like being up you know what the FA are doing too much but like the Netherlands are a great team and what she did there was really quite remarkable given the level of resources they had going into that 2017 tournament. Obviously, it was on home soil. They put a lot of effort in.

But comparatively, the player pool, the development of the game in Netherlands is so, so far behind England and many other European countries as well. When she came back from America, she spent a year at the University of North Carolina, where so many of the US Women's World Cup winners over the past however many years came through that system and that environment. And she spent a year there playing and studying and then went back to the Netherlands and was, you know, very much like, I want to see the expectation and the standards that I got at college in the US available to women in the Netherlands and she's been a big part of

driving that change and now she's coming to an environment where you've got that sort of superstructure below her to work with and so it's almost like you know she needed to get to the final with England to sort of prove that you know she could work within this this setup and guide it to this point and you know given the best resources some one of the best talent pools in the world and uh one of the best support systems in the world that you know she could achieve yeah incredible manager I mean the only one that comes close maybe is Joelle's but you know you kind of look at the US women's national team and think how much was that the manager and how much was that just the team um as well so you know I think in terms of like where you can see the direct influence of the manager on a team

uh to get them to this point I can't think of someone in the women's game, at least, that has been as influential. Is it too soon to talk about the effect it could have on women's football in this country? We've obviously talked a lot this week about legacy in sport, 10 years on from the Olympics. And Ian Wright, last night on the telly,

got very emotional talking about the impact it could have on young girls and boys watching, but particularly young girls who want to play football and are prevented from playing football just because of their gender. Listen, I urge all of you not to use the phrase seminal moment. You did very well and not use it during Alessia Russo's goal talk. It's an immediate red card if you do. But Salon, in particular, you know, the girls that you work with, how much of an effect is this going to have?

Just reaching the final, let alone winning it. It is genuinely difficult to quantify and to put it into words. And I can only talk about moments that feel like they signify something that is coming or a change has happened. And I think I was sat last night, obviously, amongst all of our girls, and they're all 15, and they've been on the FPB programme for three years, many of whom never played football before we we started working with them when they were 12 years old and i was sat behind one of the girls last night and she's really popular influential

girls who has just a brilliant mind and she was she was sat there and she was saying really quietly like this is really cool this is this is wicked I need to I need to come to more of this these players are unreal and she just kept like murmuring these little things and I was I just sat and just the kind of received it and listened and then at the 90 minutes she just ran out down the stairs and got straight to the front to try and see all the players and I think until they've had that that moment and that feeling and they've been there and I think what's been such a step change in this tournament and why I and the other staff members were so determined to get those girls there last night was because

we sat in that quarterfinal and we experienced something that was completely different to how I'd watched women's football before. When I was 15 and I went to an international friendly and watched, you know, your Alex Scotts, Rachel Units, Faye White's play, there was like, yeah, very few people there. And even if there was a lot of people there, there wasn't necessarily an atmosphere that has felt so electric this time. And I kind of, I know we've talked a lot about that. There wasn't necessarily an atmosphere that has felt so electric this time.

And I know we've talked a lot about that. So the point is that last night was their 40, 15-year-old girls' first experience of watching the Lionesses live, which now sets the precedent for what they expect from women's football for the rest of their lives. That is the impact of this tournament. That is what packing out these stadiums and putting on the best show of football does because it then frames their perspective for the rest of their lives and what they want from women's football. They're not the boring old me's now who, yeah, I'm only 26, but I'm like, that was a completely different generation of football.

And, oh, I've lived through this and I've seen the change. They're just like, shut up. I don't even know what you're talking about. That's what women's football is and how I expect it. So that I think is really where you will see the change going forward in the stadiums, hopefully when it translates to the WSL attendances, the future England games outside of a major tournament.

Yeah, and we've got another 90 minutes of cracking football ahead tonight as well because Germany face France for the opportunity to play England in that final at Wembley. Two fantastic teams, I think many of us thought would get to this point, despite people's thoughts on France usually imploding. But Germany are going to be missing Clara Ball, Johnny. She's tested positive for COVID.

How much of a loss will that be for them? Yeah, big, because that front three of Boulle and Alessandra Popp and Svenja Huth has been so potent for them, partly because of their different skill sets, the way they combine. And Boulle has been, you know, she's done it all, really. She's burgled soft goals

and she's pressed from the front, but she's also kind of linked play really intelligently. Yeah, I mean, it's a big big miss but the thing about this german team is that they they know how to pace their way through tournaments it's it's the one thing that gives me slight pause when it comes to you know assessing england's chances of winning the whole thing they are the ones who are who are stepping into genuinely unknown territory there are no maps for where they're going germany you, have done this before. Not all of them.

I mean, you know, for a lot of their players, this will be their, you know, this will be their first taste of the sharp end of a major tournament. But that kind of collective, almost cultural memory of, you know, we talk about expectation. Germany expect to be here.

They expect to get to these stages of tournaments. They expect to compete and get to finals and they expect to win. And having that collective knowledge, having senior players who can pass that on to the younger players and just kind of instill that culture of expectation and standards is so important.

Their midfield as well has been one of the revelations of the tournament. We all know how good Oberdorf was and Debritz and Magul as well, who's been one of their best players. I fancy them over France. And not just the tournament, no. I think France are kind of, I don't know, they seem to have tapered off a bit. They started with such a bang.

They lost Katoto to injury. And they've not looked quite as impressive since and and like you're right they haven't imploded like we all kind of expected they would or perhaps feared they might or relished that they might sorry well yes exactly i think i think we've all been we've all been denied the spectacle we deserve there uh but there's still time right but also i just feel they're not kind of running out of puff but they're not We've all been denied the spectacle we deserve there. But there's still time, right? But also, I just feel they're not kind of running out of puff, but they're not progressing and they're not developing into the tournament that I think the way they suggested they might from their first couple of games.

So my money would be on Germany there. Susie, two very different playing styles, Germany and France. Johnny's alluded to it there, and I think he's right. Who do you think England would prefer to meet? It's a hard one. I mean, obviously Germany at Wembley in the final of a major tournament is never a nice proposition for any England fan, but they've looked so strong in this tournament they have enormous collective memory of those wins behind them they've been there and done it time and time again but I do struggle to write off France purely because you know I wrote them off pretty much from the start of the tournament personally like I did you know based on the fact that they have been so chaotic off the field um

you know so many big names left out of that squad and they've always found a way through I don't think they've like Johnny said hit the sort of the rhythm and the the sort of I suppose gone on a tournament growth journey in the way that say Germany have or England have or Spain were on but they have got this far and found a way often playing quite audaciously and their forwards sort of regardless of whether Cototo is there or not, are extremely quick. And there's an element of surprise there, I suppose. So whilst I think given the strength of the German side,

hopefully Boul would be back for the final, it's hard to not think that they are the bigger threat going into that final game. But I think there is just this unknown element to France and their threat and where it's going to come from and which player is going to step up. And that's quite exciting and slightly scary too. You didn't nail your colours to the mask though. You just sat there with splinters. Oh no, I'm totally, it's Germany all the way.

Germany are going to win. I'm convinced of that. I've got this horrific image of lots of tears at Wembley having lost to Germany. So I fully think Germany are going to reach the final. But I think that there is this unknown element to France of quite an exciting France of, yeah, quite an exciting way of playing that means that you can't quite write them out.

So it's going to be a France-England final and England will be triumphant with no tears in that case. Important vibe check though, Salon, which fans do we want with us? Oh, French fans, definitely. They're way more fun. They're way more fun. The Germans, yeah, I'm not here for the Germans at Wembley, but also we'll make it more satisfying when we do beat the Germans in the final. It's going to be a very different atmosphere, Susie, to the one that we felt at Wembley this time last year. And without wanting to go all, oh, the atmosphere of women's football is so nice. What is it going to be like on Sunday? Everyone's been saying it's not going to be the same as last year, but I don't think you can ever say that for sure. I'm fairly confident it won't be.

But I wouldn't have necessarily predicted quite how badly things would go last year. So, you know, you never know when it's a big crowd at Wembley for a final. But yeah, I mean, the atmospheres today in this tournament have just been phenomenal. The vibe in the grounds, like my little sister was, she's 10, was at the Northern Islands game in Southampton with her her mate Keira they had made a little sign and written all the names of the players around the edge of their come on England sign and put like little flowers around it and things and it like they had the best time you know she's not that interested in football she has a you know a passing like fondness for Arsenal because of myself my dad and uh and our little brother Jack but yeah zero real interest in football and she absolutely loved it she was absolutely buzzing and it was the atmosphere and

like my I remember my son went to the he's eight he went to the I was nine now he was eight at Old Trafford like my husband said to me afterwards um and he's been to two games at the world cup in france and he's been to the fa cup final and things like that but he's not he's not really kind of got on with football to date and my husband just said he really enjoyed it and he was quite overawed by it by the the atmosphere by the singing um i got back to the hotel room and he was dancing nude on the bed to Sweet Caroline um and yeah like had an absolute blast I said the atmosphere is gonna be incredible it's gonna be three times bigger crowd wise than than what it was at Bramall Lane I mean I think there's a huge missed opportunity in that like I think England could have sold out Wembley six times over on

the way to his final or at least all the way through the knockouts, because I think this has been very much a tournament that has grown in momentum and interest as it's gone on. I think prior to the tournament, if you'd had every game at Wembley, they may not have all sold out. But I think by the end of the group stage, at the very least, they would have all sold out. And so you think of the revenue and the interest

and the kind of impact that that would have had. And you think there's been a bit of an underestimation there of, A, how far the team was going to go and, B, exactly what selling out Wembley could mean for the game more broadly as well. So, you know, whilst obviously it's going to be wonderful and brilliant and like electric, I think is the only word to describe it on Sunday. There is also a little bit of a like,

what if for me about if they had gone there sooner. I think just on the point of women's football atmosphere being so nice, I think digging a little bit deeper into that the word that comes up for me and the feeling is just belonging like that is the comparison to the men's game standing in Wembley last year perhaps as a woman watching England men play no matter how much national pride is flowing through you you well I say I still feel I don't 100% belong and I've been in and around the men's game my whole life and what this is the contrast is is this just radical acceptance and feeling of belonging from six-year-old boys to 70-year-old women. You look around and you see people from so many different walks of life, all side by side,

doing the same thing and enjoying the same thing without any splinter of aggro. And that is the feeling. That is why it feels so powerful to be in those stadiums because you just feel like you belong. And then that creates this atmosphere where everyone is invited to the party. Well, everybody is always invited to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly Party. Thanks for being with us today. Susie Rack, a pleasure. I shall see you. I won't see you at Wembley.

Well, I will see you at Wembley, but I'll see you before Wembley. I'll see you at the Lensbury. Yeah, back at the Lensbury yeah back at the Lensbury and having had Covid I am like you know got my insurance policy for the final signed or sealed already it's going to be great amazing well keep your fingers crossed for me in that case Johnny Lou always a pleasure yeah thanks for having me I'll see you in a very long queue somewhere I'm sure always Sal Always. Salon, take care. Thanks, everyone. Right.

What a night. We will be back tomorrow and we have a special bonus episode looking ahead to the final, which will drop on Friday. The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver and Jesse Parker Humphreys with additional help from Silas Gray and George Cooper. Music composition was from Laura Iredale and our executive producers are Chessie Bem, Max Sanderson and Danielle Stevens. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is supported by Visa. Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack,

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