The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Lionesses roar on to World Cup final showdown with Spain - Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Faye Carruthers, Suzanne Wrack, Sophie Downey and Anita Asante wrap up the semi-final action as England and Spain set up a date in the final.

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starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected, be Zen. This is The Guardian. Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Wow, wow, wow. The Lionesses write more history into a book that's already a bestseller by reaching a Women's World Cup final for the first time. It's the first time since 1966, in fact, that any men's or women's team have reached the World Cup final. I could put in some Matilda's waltzing puns, but I'm not going to do that.

Australia, though, are out of their home tournament. Even Sam Kerr unable to pull off a shock. But they have won over a whole new army of fans. Spain defied the odds off the pitch to secure a place in their first Women's World Cup final, knocking out a Sweden side determined to always be the bridesmaid, never the bride. We'll discuss all that. Take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel,

the only phone engineered by Google and proud partner of the England teams. Search Google Store to find out more. Hello, hello, panel. Have you all recovered? I mean, bearing in mind our WhatsApp messages, I'm not entirely sure whether you have. Susie Rack is poorly, first and foremost,

but she's still lying down on her front with her legs kicking up in the air by her microphone with a lovely smug, we are into a World Cup final smile on her face. How are you doing? Like I'm dying, but, you know, good. I mean, I did get asked earlier on by the boss whether I needed to take a step back for a couple of days.

I was like, you're joking. I'll die on the 24-hour flight afterwards. You were barely alive when we spoke to you the other day. Sophie Downey, tell me you're alive at least. I am alive and kicking. I don't really know if I'm in reality at the moment, but yes, I'm alive and kicking. I don't feel any of us are in reality,

although I think Anita Asante is because she has a young baby and is about to walk out the door, so you are definitely feeling the reality. 100%, but yeah, still really happy and excited to the final you know amazing times we're into the final it is amazing times come on listen seriously let's just let's just take a moment of silence and reflection shall we because england are into a major fight. This is, you know, we wrote history in the European Championship final. But this is like, this is the World State. This is the World Cup. Like, I still don't think I've quite recovered. I had goosebumps and actually felt a little bit teary on the

final whistle. But actually, it wasn't on the final whistle. It was on Alessia Russo's goal when I knew the final whistle was imminent. I was like, wow, oh my God, this is actually real. So the European champions England are into their first ever World Cup final. I'm not going to get bored of saying that until I can say England are world champions and then I'll get bored of just saying we're into a final. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, shall we? It finished England 3, Australia 1 in front of more than 75,000 fans in Sydney. Goals from Ella Toon, Lauren Hemp and Alessia Russo taking the Lionesses through at the expense of the co-hosts.

Sweet Caroline, even though I hate it, ringing out at the final whistle was a delight as Serena Vigman's side finally made it to the final after falling short of the semi-final stage at the last two World Cups. So much to discuss. What a game it was, Susie, first and foremost. How do you even begin to sum up what it was like in Stadium Australia? Oh, it was absolutely rocking. That's the first Australia game I've actually been to in person out here because I've just been following the England games. And it was incredible, like the vibe around the stadium even just like around town as well all day has been just absolutely electric you know there's just

green and gold absolutely everywhere and the stadium was just rammed vocal and just like there's a tenseness there to it but also like like, it's not like a stressed tenseness, if I can put it that way. It's more like a excited tension and yeah, sort of like nothing to lose vibe to things that was really great. And yeah, I mean, the game, I just thought England was so composed,

just so, so patient and composed. And I thought the difference really for me was the experience of being in these kinds of situations composed just so so patient and composed and I thought the difference really for me was the experience of being in these kind of situations of having won a tournament just put them a cut above in that sense. Yeah it did how special was it to actually be there Sophie for you? I think I'm going to struggle to put that into words because it's been quite a journey that we've been on with the Lionesses over the last decade or so. And I always sat next to the wonderful Jen O'Neill

and Catherine Eto'o throughout the game. And I think in the last five minutes, we all had our head in our hands going, what is happening? Because after Leslie Russo scored, as Serena Vigman said in post-match, you kind of knew it was done. There was never going to be a comeback for Australia at that point.

So you just kind of were sort of not really believing that England were going through to a World Cup final. And, you know, I was in Edmonton in 2015 for that Japan semi-final, that absolutely gutting own goal from Laura Bassett. And I ended up in the stadium stadium under a flag absolutely sobbing my heart out and the same in 2019 in Lyon and I was sobbing my heart out too after that loss to the USA and I was sobbing today but it wasn't you know in such a despair it was an absolute joy because you know the journey that we've all been on is quite incredible. Yeah, it feels like that. What did it feel like for you, Anita?

Incredible and more so incredible because I was with a grassroots team in London today of like under 14s, under 16s, who were like buzzing, jumping off chairs, screaming, hands in the air. And it's when you witness the youth and younger generation watching this historic moment you realize that all this has been is always worthwhile like all the struggles we've had as a national team as a nation trying to progress this sport forward is for moments like this for them to be impacted, for them to witness this, and for them to just be, you know, empowered and sort of inspired as well. I think it, yeah, it was fantastic. It's like hard to really put into words, as you said.

Did you have the same kind of like disbelief moment? I mean, we saw on the television coverage how emotional Farrah Williams and Ellen White were at the final whistle as well. It feels as if this Lionesses team in particular have really captured the nation and tugged on all of our heartstrings a little bit. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's the way in which they have improved as a team. You know, it's not just I know they've had criticism about their performances throughout the tournament but it's like their mental toughness is the difference now you know as well the way they approached this game was they were probing they did it in a controlled manner they

did it in a way where they looked like they wanted to assert their presence earlier on as Susie mentioned before like we've been here before we're going to own this occasion and we're going to embrace it and I think that's the difference that there's that psychological shift that like we are the you know come after us we're ready for this challenge and that I think for me that's what's so exciting to witness. Let's take a bit of a breather and get the Australian perspective shall we? Kieran Pender has been with the Matildas camp throughout. He sent us his thoughts on what's been an emotional rollercoaster of a tournament for the co-hosts.

So I've just got back to my hotel after that game and I guess the overwhelming emotion is a feeling of awaking from a daze. It's been a dreamlike run For the Matildas at this tournament Home World Cup And now we're standing at a bumpy group stage They've gone where no Australian team Has ever gone before to the semi-finals

For that to end on Wednesday night Is devastating For Australia But also Leaves the nation filled with Optimism I thought the mood as the players came through and spoke to the media after the game was a really mixed mood of, of course, disappointment, of course, upset, heartbreak, but also a sense of what can come, a sense of what this means for football in Australia, for women's sport in Australia, a nation uniting around this team,

like really few examples of that in recent Australian history for the nation to unite so centrally behind one team and that I think left a lot of the players and a lot of the observers of this tournament, including myself, feeling hopeful, feeling optimistic, hopeful that this may be, as a number of the players said after the game, not the end, but the beginning. England, a classy team, deserved the win. There was a sort of eight, nine minute stretch after Sam Kerr's incredible equaliser where there was hope that was snuffed out by two England goals, but still a tournament that the Matildas can be proud of. Of course, they'll now head to Brisbane for the third place playoff. A

lot of talk after the game about quickly turning the focus to that, perhaps some of the wider introspection about this tournament and what it means will wait until after that but truly it's been an incredible tournament for the Matildas they've certainly surpassed any expectations not just in where they ended up but in the way they've united a nation around them and I don't think you can ask for much more than that. It really did feel like it was going to be a bit of a fairy tale for Sam Kerr. Sophie didn't it at one point. I know Susie Rack had visions of her doing a backflip in our preview.

Thankfully, although she did get on the score sheet, you know, a calf injury, I don't think it would be good if she'd been stretched off after doing a backflip. That wouldn't have been the brightest thing in the world. But it was such an exceptional goal that she scored to get Australia back into the the game then that glancing header over the bar and then of course that volley as well from six yards out which she's going to be kicking herself about it but ultimately it was just a bit of a stretch too far for the Matildas it felt. Yeah she took the hard chance and missed the easy chances pretty much maybe they weren't that easy but you know the

goal was gaping for her on both occasions and you would have bet on her to put them away and then she goes and scores that spectacular one which is the most difficult of the lot so it was always going to be a moment for her I think there was the writing on the wall to have that kind of exceptional moment but I did think that you know Australia have had to deal with not having her in the team for the pretty much the whole of this tournament and it in a way it kind of disjointed them a little bit the fact that she came back in and was their kind of target person you know their leader it kind of changed the way that they've adapted to playing over the last few games I know she came off the bench and in the last game or so but like

you still have to adapt to not having her there and I think they looked a bit lost in that first half maybe in trying to find her and she was dropping deep or running around the place trying to get involved in the play and not quite you know not quite getting it she had to play she had to start but actually maybe looking back on it, it was a bit of an error to try and mess up the flow of the team as it were. I'd said that before the game, I was surprised to see her start. And, you know, it's really difficult having to adapt to then play with Sam Kerr again. But I mean, when you talk about adapting, this Lionesses side have adapted to everything that has been thrown at them during this tournament and before the tournament as well.

And Serena Vipin spoke about the ruthlessness of her side, Susie, and the way they were able to stick to their plan. I mean, she's the first coach to take two different nations to a World Cup final. She's just a genius. I mean, the only game in a major tournament that she's lost is the World Cup final in 2019 that's just insane and then you look at her record with this England side having only lost the one game and that was against Australia without Leah Williamson without Millie Bright without Beth Mead in the warm-up game yeah phenomenal record and I think the exciting thing for me in seeing her as a manager in this tournament is seeing the way they've responded to that all the different levels of

adversity from Keira Walsh getting injured from the play looking a bit predictable at times from Lauren James's suspension and at each stage they've like adapted and overcome every single hurdle and that for me is the sign of a a true manager with tactical know-how of of the game like I think no other team has really shown that and I don't think it's just Serena I think it's a team of people around her as well like Ayan her assistant is by all accounts, a really, really great tactician too. But yeah, that has been what has impressed me the most in that I think it's the first time we've seen them properly be tested tactically and had real, real questions asked of them as a group, as a management team. And they've come through every single like obstacle really comprehensively and I think there's just this you know we said it already this experience

now running through the team that is powering them on like they I just thought they looked so calm out on the pitch a lot of the talk before this game was about the pressure of the moment on both England from the point of view of facing a hostile crowd of that scale for the first time, really, in a very, very long time. And then, you know, obviously having never actually got over the hurdle of a World Cup semi-final before. And then you've got the pressure on the Matildas as the home team, the host nation, you know, first major semifinal, so many expectations on their shoulders. And yeah, for me, it was all about who was going to handle the pressure best. And I thought England looked utterly unfazed by it and were just so calm and patient in the moment that it just, yeah, like really Australia uh in a really sort of satisfying way yeah well it's interesting actually because I was going to delve into the game but you mentioned the players that were missing there so it does feel like you know I should bring that up Anita

it almost feels as if we've forgotten about what we were talking about leading into the tournament that there was no Leah Williamson no Beth Mead Frank Kirby. It kind of hammers home what an amazing achievement this is. And Navdeep has said, with the injuries to the key players, would England winning the World Cup on Sunday be a greater achievement than winning the Euros last summer? I mean, it's a greater achievement anyway because it's the World Cup. But bearing in mind the adversity that you faced, what do you think? Yeah, I definitely think considering those circumstances

you know prior to the tournament they were solid favorites if you like and with those injuries suddenly the tide changed and it was like oh we're not sure don't know don't think England can do it but this squad has stepped up to the mark every single squad member has added value has has made this happen and it shows the kind of togetherness and cohesion they have but also the trust that Serena has in the team you know Susie mentioned the adaptations whether that be tactically whether that be personnel they've all risen to the challenge they've all stepped into the roles and and the responsibility we've got to remember Millie Bright was came into this tournament not 100% as well and has led from the back, has faced some tough contenders from a defensive standpoint too

and done fantastically to overcome them. So, yeah, I think this would be the greatest achievement of all achievements considering all the various obstacles this team has faced throughout the tournament. And we need to give some love to Lauren Hemp, Sophie, don't we? Because it was a fantastic performance from her. She worked tirelessly all game, had the composure to finish her goal, teed up Alessia Russo to score the decisive third. I felt as if her and Alessia Russo as well gave Ella Toon the space to score the opener

in the first place. It was just brilliant. I'll just give you her stats. One goal, one assist, 46 touches, 93% pass completion, three chances created, two dribbles completed, equals player of the match. She was outstanding. And I think she has actually been outstanding.

She was outstanding against Colombia too. I think this new formation has given her a new lease of life and the kind of Lauren Hemp that we were expecting at the Euros last year where she tried really hard but she maybe didn't have the most productive uh championships ever I think we're starting to see her come to life in this one she's showing a lot of maturity. You know, I think she was always one of England's young players and now she's actually showing she's got a real, like, intelligent head on. Not that she never did, but, like, you know, that maturity as you get older and more experienced in major tournaments where you know how to manage games. And the way that she works with Alessia up front gives her the ability to,

I think, she can be direct when she needs to be. She can go wide when she needs to be she can go wide when she needs to be they they seem to really understand each other and the way that they move um together so I think it's been an absolute like well masterpiece from Wiegmann as well Serena because she she found that solution but actually it's brought both of Russo and Hemp to life and they both deserve a lot of credit. Just a couple of things that were noticed. Alessia Russo's already scored seven goals in just two major tournaments, showing real composure.

She says, we've been dreaming since we were little girls. Lucy Bronze said, this is the one thing I've always wanted. We all dreamed of being in the final. Ella Toon is the first man or woman to score in the quarter, semi and final of a major tournament and hopefully make that two finals if she can get on the score sheet on Sunday as well it just feels like there's just you know records being broken left right and center just a final word on on England before in part two we decide to focus on Spain and then focus on the final itself Susie? I just am blown away by

the resilience of the team to come through everything they've come through in this tournament and after the injuries as we've already said I really liked what Lucy Bronze said in the mix zone after the match I watched the World Cup in Germany when England played and got knocked out by France that's my memory of the England team and since that World Cup I've played in every single World Cup I've always said the one thing I wanted for England is to get a star above my crest the men have it and we don't so finally we can share the same crest and that I was just like that just made me really emotional because you know we've seen her play like I just had this vision of having to be in that mix zone and have her walk through if they had lost another semi

final and I was like I don't think I could do it I don't think I could do it again and yeah so just the idea that they've made it that far is quite moving in and of itself and finally got over that mark but yeah I just yeah I've said it already. I just thought it was so phenomenally patient in the performance. The goals were so superb, clinical when they needed to be. Just, yeah, just electric. I thought defensively as well, they were really good. More love to Jess Carter in that back three formation.

It suits her so much better than the back four. And actually when she made that fantastic interception when Mary Earps had saved the ball from Courtney Vines and, you know, absolutely vital because the Matildas had their tails up at that point. And if they'd have got that second goal, you know, England would have been chasing the game with less than 10 minutes to play.

So yeah, it was fascinating, I thought. But I want to ask you a question, Sophie, that Katie has sent in. She said, Rachel Daly was open so many times on the left wing, but rarely received the ball. Any idea why? We seemed scared of the crossfield ball, which is risky, of course, but she was wide open so often. What did you make of the tactics? Did you notice that in particular? I think it was actually the same both sides because Lucy Bronze was in the same position

and she looked to be in the acres of space down that side. I think there was an element of maybe game management to it. I think there were times when, you know, while England dominated the possession in that first half especially, there were moments of anxiety for them when when Australia did come at them and have chances and you know break down especially Ellie Carpenter I think down the the right side on Rachel Daly's side was having a lot of joy in that space so I think at times they were trying to slow things down a bit and take things at their own pace so they could speed it up and slow it down to take the sting out of the game and not let Australia control proceedings. But yes, it was something I did notice that sometimes I was certainly saying,

she's out there, just pass it, just pass it. But maybe there was a game management in that. Well, I mean, Millie Bright did pass it because that ball she pinged through the middle for Lauren Hemp's second goal was an absolute beaut, wasn't it? But I mean, maybe it's because we've been exploited down those wings with Lucy Bronze and Rachel Daly playing in that left wing back position potentially but from your kind of coach's head Anita do you think Serena Vigman got it got it spot on with her tactics well yeah she definitely did we're into a final so in Serena we trust stupid Stupid question.

Totally stupid question. No, but, you know, she stuck with the same lineup. She stuck with the same formation. She got to a point where I guess she felt like now we can be consistent in these things. And we knew that it suited the personnel in the squad, the three centre-backs. It works. It plays to their strengths.

It allows them to showcase their qualities. personnel in the squad, the three centre-backs. It works, it plays for their strengths, it allows them to showcase their qualities. And everyone, I think, has had a moment in the competition where they have just shown up and excelled. Hemp today was an example of that. Today was her game. She took it by the scruff of the neck, did some really brilliant things in the middle of the park, carrying the ball, the slip through. So, you know, that's what we wanted to see. So tactically, it did work. And obviously you talked before about the team being cautious across the pass. Well, from a coach's perspective, a cross field pass is a pass over distance, which is more risk. So to me, that's smart decision making from the players

they've seen it in the game they feel where they have control they feel where they have momentum and they feel why you know this is a game that realistically was going to be the separation of quality and being clinical and vital moments but also not making errors not making too many errors to a team that are brilliant at transitioning you You know, so for me, that is brilliant tactical work from Serena and the team. Yeah, it certainly is. Right. That's it for part one. In part two, we'll tell you how Spain booked their place in the final and we'll look ahead to the showpiece itself. Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. So to our other semi-final, you wait 80 minutes for anything to happen in Auckland

and then you get three goals in the space of eight minutes. It was cagey. At times it was lacking in quality and it wasn't necessarily very pretty. But Spain did beat Sweden 2-1 to book their place in Sunday's final, thanks to goals from teenage sensation Salma Paraluelo and captain Olga Carmona. It looked like the Swedes were going to force extra time when substitute Rebecca Blomqvist equalised in the 88th minute, but just 93 seconds later, La Roja were back in front. They had never won a knockout game before this tournament, Sophie,

which is quite incredible when you think about it, really. And now they've gone all the way to the final. You were at Eden Park. I mean, you've racked up some miles, haven't you? Did the right team go through? Yes and no. I don't know. I still am really, like, perplexed by Spain, maybe, is the word.

Because they control the ball, they create the chances, and they just can't hit the target. Like, they were doing the same yesterday. I think the first half was pretty even, as you said, it was lacking a bit of quality. But for all of their possession and all of the play around the goal, it was Sweden who forced the only save of the game in the first 45 minutes. So there's something really perplexing about what's going on in that Spanish team. They needed something special. They have that in Salma.

She's come on twice now to score those goals. And she has a directness and pace to the play that I think England would be really worried about. Certainly it terrified the Dutch defence and also the Swedish defence in the last two rounds. And they really needed that because the more experienced players on that pitch looked a bit out of ideas in terms of how to create a real clinical chance on goal. The last five minutes or so was utter madness, utter chaos. I think Sweden have a lot to look at themselves about conceding that goal so quickly. An experienced team like them should not be doing that at all. They were basically still celebrating and they allowed Spain to score that goal.

They afforded her so much space outside the box of that corner. They just fell asleep. And I just don't think a team of their quality should be doing that, especially their defensive quality. So, yeah, still very perplexed by Spain. It wasn't the best game, to be perfectly honest, but they got through and they've made history. I agree with you in terms of it not being the best game it was a frustrating game to watch from many points of view bearing in mind there are more there had been more exciting teams in the tournament it felt and after that 4-0 schooling by Japan Anita in the in the last group game for Spain they were almost written off and it feels like a lifetime ago but given all the

disruption off the pitch, how much credit do you have to give this Spain team to get themselves to the final despite everything going on? Yeah, I think they sort of turned the page when they beat Switzerland, although Switzerland didn't really show up.

And I think with all the disputes that have been going on in the background with the last 15 players prior to the tournament and then obviously the three or four players left out the squad, Mapi, Leon, Guijarro, you know Caldente he felt like is this Spanish team going to be able to do anything in this competition so yeah I think despite the odds despite all the disputes going on with the management in terms of their manager and the federation, they've managed to put it together and somehow find a way to progress. But I agree. I think, you know, you summed it up perfectly, Sophie, that you're perplexed. I think we're all perplexed because we know there's just a pipeline of talent within the Spanish squad and in the youth set up. And for some reason, they just don't seem to have all the components work as effectively as it should.

But I do think that Salma Parabella, when she came on, gave them that focal point, that number nine, you know, as much as I love her most though, I think she floats around a lot, you know, kind of like a midfielder and drops into areas where she doesn't trouble back lines enough. Anita makes a really good point actually there. But Salma Paraluello, we have to give her so much credit because she was the game changer when she came on as a substitute. Sophie, she scored the winner in the quarterfinal, opened the scoring to kind of really open up the game, unlock everything in this semifinal as well. And she is such a talent.

She is. I mean, this tournament has been, the kids are all right, right? This tournament has been about the breakout stars and the youngsters coming through and showing what they can do on the stage, perhaps performing where there may be more experienced counterparts have not been or have struggled a little bit under the pressure and she is such a dynamic electric young player she's had an incredible year she used to be actually until last summer she was an athletic star as well she was a 400 meter champion and she did hurdles as well and it was only when she signed for Barcelona that she she fully chose to do football so she's only been in full football training for the last year which is quite incredible considering what she's achieved she won the under 20 world cup with Spain last last summer as well last August

and she's also a former under 17 world cup winner so she's got plenty of experiences at youth level Spain's quality at those levels is insane. If they win on Sunday, they will have a clean sweep of all of the World Cups, which is quite mad to think about. So yeah, she's come from that kind of pool of talent that they're developing. And to think that she's only 19, she can only get better, right? She's got her peak years ahead of her. It's absolutely terrifying, isn't it? Before we hear from Sid Lowe about the mood back in Spain we can't ignore the off-field issues Susie we touched on them there with with Anita but 12 players having to miss out on this incredible experience because of their dispute

with coach Jorge Vilda and the Spanish Football Federation and I know that you didn't want Spain to get through so I'm sure you are absolutely fuming. Yeah, I mean, Sweden let us down, man. No, I just, I find it very frustrating that it's likely going to embolden the Federation and embolden the manager who, you know, are not wanting you. I mean, you could see it in the celebrations post-match, right? Like, he's completely

ignored by his players pretty much you know when alexia buteus is uh substituted and goes over to the bench she ignores his hands held out for a high five like there's a lot going on behind the scenes that i think you know we're not privy to i mean that said you know i also i really struggle with i see people say oh we should support the players not the manager that kind of thing I even struggle with that to a certain extent when there's clearly this you know split amongst the players as well in that some have gone back and some haven't and you know like would he still be in post would there still be the same resilience from the federation if the players

hadn't split in the way that they have and some gone back and some not like potentially not I just really struggle with it and I just I just really you know don't want to see a federation that is being so doggedly difficult to the players that it is uh in charge of being rewarded with a World Cup win off the back of the talent of the players, which we know is extraordinary. So, yeah, I think they're winning despite the manager, despite the federation. That's obviously an impressive thing in and of itself. But I think it's rare that England is the neutrals fan.

Well, or the neutral or the fan. Exactly. You know what I mean. My nose is too blocked to think straight. But I think on this occasion, every single neutral is going to be on the side of England, hoping similarly that they deliver a blow to a system that deserves a blow,

not players that necessarily do. Well, let's find out exactly how it's been received back in Spain, shall we? The Guardian's Sid Lowe sent us this voice note. Spain reaching the final is huge, of course, and not least because you're looking at it from a historic point of view of them never having won a knockout game before. So this in itself, getting here, is seen as enormous and seen as them having broken a barrier with a very good team

who, apart from the Japan game, when they were dreadful, really, and totally taken apart, apart from the Japan game, they've played really quite well. I think they've probably been the best team in the tournament. I think there's an awareness of that here. And it's been a big tournament in terms of the media coverage, in terms of the sense of importance of it. Obviously, it's not helped, I think, by the kick-off times,

and that's probably true all across Europe I think that does take it out of centre stage a little bit but it's been front page in all the sports newspapers it's it's led news bulletins it's been that kind of a focal point I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's kind of captured Spain in the way that a World Cup would often do, but it's certainly been very big. And of course, the context of this is that there is a belief that Spain have or could have a really good team. That's built on what they did in the Euros last year when they played very well. It's built, of course, on the success in particular of Barcelona at international level. But you've also now got a very strong team at Real Madrid. You've had a strong team at Atletico Madrid. The professionalisation of the Spanish league has, I think, led to a sense that there's something building here and Spain have been

successful at under-17s and under-19s level with the women's team as well. But of course, the context is the departure of 15 players or those 15 players who wrote to the federation to say that they didn't want to be considered for selection for the national team unless changes were made, unless there were shifts all the way across the board throughout the federation. And of course, that focused, it wasn't purely about him, but it focused a lot on Jorge Vilda, the manager. So I think there was a sense that they probably wouldn't have a chance this time around. Now, that was partly remedied in purely footballing terms. And, you know, there's a much, much bigger question that can be debated here. And that actually is being debated in the midst of this success but in purely

footballing terms that was remedied a little bit by the return of key players just before the World Cup and obviously Alexia Porteus is the one that everybody looks at as the if you like the figurehead of the Spanish generation but probably the most significant one is Aitana Bonmati and not least because Alexia has been injured for the best part of a year and hasn't been able to play the kind of role that they would like and Aitana has been absolutely fabulous for for 18 months or more so there's there's a huge excitement going into final there is now that debate actually around Builder and there are those saying this kind of vindicates him those saying that this suggests that some of the criticisms made of him were overplayed obviously from the other side I think there

are a lot of people who find it quite difficult to know how to respond to this because the if you like the underlying problem the belief is it's still there that some of those issues have been dealt with and I think they have been quietly dealt with by the by the federation I think there has been an attempt to change some of the structural problems that they had the professionalization of the game the improvement in in travel plans the improvement in the resources given to the team and so on. But there is now that kind of sense of, so how do we judge this given everything that's happened? Now, obviously, beyond the judgment, there's just the excitement of a really good team that's played really, really well throughout the tournament that has, in the last two games,

come through in a way that perhaps adds to that sense of drama, that sense of kind of having overcome big obstacles, because both the quarterfinals and the semifinals, there were moments when it looked like it might not happen for Spain and they found a way through. And so I think more than anything else, it's excitement around this team. And inevitably, of course, there's that debate always about what this means for the legacy, what it means for participation, what it means for the development of the league and so on. And those, I think, and whether this creates kind of an impulsor for that.

But those kind of debates, I think we'll see them in the coming months rather than right now. And actually some of those changes and some of those movements had already been happening. The Spanish league is very strong, Barcelona in particular, exceptionally strong. So more than anything else,

there's just that sense of wow, Spain are on the verge of something huge. I mean, they are on the verge of something huge, Anita, but it feels, as Sophie said earlier, as if they've been building towards it. Under-17, under-20, Women's World Cup holders,

they've got such an amazing crop of youth players coming through, but I still don't think any of us really expected them to go this far. No, I agree with you. I think off the back of the Euros last year, the quarterfinals, although the first half was tight, you know, a tight game, and they probably had the first half, we had the second. Largely, you know, domestically is where all their success has been, you know, in terms of Barcelona, in the Spanish league and at the senior level, not really with the national team, although we've always seen the talents of the previous tournaments.

But as Sophie said, I think it is the fearlessness of the youth players, the younger generation coming into this team who have experienced it at youth level, winning a major competition can do a lot for how they mentally cope again at this stage to deal with a finals competition but you know what can you say they just have a pipeline of talent across all age groups and we're very privileged to see it that's not what we want to see for Englandland obviously and because we think you know they have a really good chance of obviously hopefully bringing it home i don't want to jinx anything but um yeah i think uh this spanish side is winning despite the management and federation and

and and maybe that is dangerous because they're feeling galvanized to do something big as well for their nation and that that's unfortunate because, you know, it might not ignite the change we want to see happen in the background. Yeah, it's really difficult, isn't it? We need to talk about Sweden, Sophie. We've spoken a lot about Spain, but Sweden, the bridesmaids, yet again, they've been eliminated at the semifinal stage of the World Cup for the fourth time, 1991,2011, 2019-2023. They were obviously runners-up to Canada at the Olympics

two years ago as well. You can kind of understand why they were so emotional at the final whistle. But what is it about this Sweden side that just does not have the mentality to go that extra step? I honestly don't know because you look at the players individually, right, and you look at the experience that they've got you know the likes of Magda Ericsson, Frida Lina Rolfo they've all won trophies elsewhere domestically um and yet when they get to this this level this stage they um

yeah they they sort of never get through and I I don't really know what I think it's mentality I think it has to be I think the way way that they conceded that winner for Spain, it certainly points to mentality. You know, they're now the first ever team to lose four semifinals. It's not a record you want. And I think they've lost four semifinals at European Championship stages as well.

So that points to a really big problem, I think. And one that they need to find a way to get over. But I'm a bit worried because this generation of players right they're more experienced now not many of them will have many more major tournaments left and you start to think about you know the ones that they're bringing through and how that regeneration is going to happen. Yeah do we expect quite a lot of squad turnover now for Peter Gerhardsen's side Susieie. I mean, we obviously know it's the end for Captain Caroline Sager. They're going to want to go out on a high during Saturday's third place playoff against Australia in Brisbane.

They obviously won the bronze medal at the last World Cup at the expense of England as well. But, you know, they know that they should be challenging for finals, surely. Yeah, I mean, if I'm totally honest, I sort of, you know they know that they should be challenging for finals surely yeah i mean if i'm totally honest i sort of you know i was at the um final of the olympics in tokyo and i very much thought that was them going over the hill so to speak and into a new team cycle and if anything i've been a little bit surprised by the performance of the euros and at this world cup after watching that olympic final i think there's a lot of promise in the side they've still got a number of young players the issue they've got is it's not the biggest country the league isn't as good

as it once was uh they're obviously reliant on players playing for other big european nations in a way that they weren't in the past and there is going to be a bit of a turnover in the squad now too so it's going to be interesting to see how they regroup and what sort of newer players sort of come into the fray but at core there there is a really good side there's just something about watching a team I said it earlier on when we're talking about England and you know having watched Lucy Bronze go through uh mixed zones after losing semi-finals time and time again and there's this there's something about seeing Sweden players lose that I find particularly difficult um you know that Olympic final was particularly brutal because they really really

should have won that game and perhaps should have beaten Spain too, I would argue. So yeah, there's a little bit of a always a bridesmaid feel to it. And I can't see them necessarily being able to keep the same level or keep up with the rest of the European powerhouses and world powerhouses in the way that they have done in more recent years. Yeah, the Sweden players are going to have to pick themselves up the floor for this one because it all comes down to this.

Sunday, 11am UK time, Stadium Australia in Sydney, Spain and England going head-to-head for World Cup glory. We are going to be back with a special preview episode before Sunday, so don't worry about that. But let's have a little quick sneak peek ahead, shall we? Producer Lucy has written, flip-flop asked. Flip-flop? Who's flip-flop? Flip-flop asked.

I always just think, you know, sometimes when you split your flip-flop and it looks like a mouse, maybe that's why they're called flip-flop. Shut up, Faye. Shut up and ask the question. Would you play the same team against Spain or get Lauren James back in? That's the question on everyone's lips, isn't it, Sophie? It is.

I would be, and this is going to sound absolutely mad, but I would be one to keep Ella Toon in it. And not absolutely mad because we know Ella Toon's qualities, but we all know the sort of star qualities that Lauren James brings to the game. But if I'm thinking about Spain in that game against Sweden and the impact that Salma made on the game, you know, this young teenage star who has all of the ability in the world and the fire in her belly to run and chase down tired defences. And I'm just thinking,

well, yeah, why not Lauren James too? She could be the impact. And, you know, sometimes she can sort of go out of games a little bit. She can peter out. She can have a real good impact early on in the first half and maybe not such a big impact in the second half. So why not flip that around and, you know, put her on when her defence is a little less energetic? I don't think it's mad. It's what I think. I've just said it on the radio as well. So it must be true.

I just think it has to be the case. And I watched Ella Toon at the end of that match go straight over and give Serena Wiegmann a massive hug. And I hope she whispered in her ear, please start me now. It felt like Ella Toon had a bit of a point to prove. You know, she lost her place to Lauren James. She scored that cracker of a goal. And she's had a bit of criticism this tournament.

And I feel as if she deserves the right to start in the final, Susie. Yeah, I weirdly agree in that I, pretty much through the whole tournament, have consistently talked about Ella Toon not having the best tournament, struggling. But I agree. I think she's earned the right

to play in this final. She's got experience in a final. She was exceptional in the final against Germany. She scored the winner against Spain in the Euros. She is obviously, you know, kind of brilliant role in the game today. I just feel like she's earned that spot and has the experience at that level

that Lauren James doesn't necessarily. If Lauren James comes into the side side the pressure on her is going to be insane to do something incredibly special and also like to make up as well for having messed up i think and i just i don't know if she's quite mentally emotionally ready for that profile of game and that level of attention in that way. I feel like coming off the bench, you have a little bit more freedom. In the same way that Alessia Russo and Ella Toon did last summer, sort of came on and just played with a bit of a nothing to lose attitude.

I feel like she could play that role. That said, controlling the ball against Spain is going to be incredibly difficult and she is someone who can keep the ball at her feet. In that sense, maybe you do play. I don't know. I've changed my mind again. I don't know. Yes, play Ellertoon. I'm going to stick with it. I'll tell you what, let's ask the coach because what the hell do us three know?

Let's ask the person that actually knows what she's talking about. Anita Asante, start with Lauren James on the pitch or start with her on the bench? I think start with her on the bench, actually. I do agree with everyone else. Only because I think that Toon and Lauren James

are two different players, right? They play a similar role, but they're very different. And I think the work rate that Toon has off the ball as well will also help England to maintain control you know in transition and win back balls and pressurizing situations but I also think you know LJ gives you know that kind of surprise factor we know that she can just make something brilliant happen in a moment so she will have inevitably that kind of impact if it's needed so yeah I think from a pragmatic standpoint right now the synergy is there in this group they are

living off this high from doing this collectively and to take that into the next game puts them in the perfect place from a foundation standpoint and yeah we know what magic Lauren can can deliver so yeah she'll definitely have impact from the bench we are going to do a proper full-on preview uh preview plod it won't be a preview plod please join us because it will be a very exciting fast preview pod I promise you um so I don't want to focus too much on Spain, but just a teeny tiny one, Sophie, on the role that Alexia Puteas might potentially play. Because obviously Jorge Vilda made the call to start her in the semi, but she was taken off after 56 minutes. She didn't look very happy about that. But I mean, she was completely anonymous in that game, it felt. She didn't look very fit either. She looked slightly... I don't know what's up. I know that recovering from an ACL injury is a huge thing, so there's ups and downs, right? But I think Barcelona managed her really well, and I'm not so sure Spain or the coach have managed her particularly well. before the tournament a lot of minutes, more than she had done before. And she hasn't really been looking at her best.

And you certainly saw that against Sweden, that she wasn't at her best. She looked like she was limping a little bit as she came off the pitch as well. So I don't know if you start her. I know she brings experience and she's won things before. And then you can have that impact off the bench again. But I would question about the impact that she could have on a game, as she is. Yeah, I agree with you.

Just a last quick one on England, Anita. What's the mood going to be like in the Lionesses' camp? Serena Wiegmann said that they were going to have a party and then focus. I mean, I don't think it's going to be like a full-on party, but they do need to kind of get the adrenaline of this match out of them, but they're going to be absolutely buzzing. They're not going to be overawed surely by the occasion now no not at all i mean it's going to be like a kid's party you know millie's involved so you know bouncing off some walls and there'll be some silliness going on but they'll swiftly get their feet back on the ground and be

focused on this final because they know you know how close they are they're within touch and distance of really creating monumental history but yeah they deserve to enjoy this moment and really live in it as it stands and um I wish we could see I wish we were flies on the walls and seeing what the team and Serena were getting up to in this moment but um you know the ultimate professionals so they'll enjoy it briefly and then they'll focus to the final we'll enjoy it briefly as well and we will focus on the final in a special preview pod join us for that and we'll properly dig into england versus spain it's going to be absolutely incredible anita thanks for joining us on your journey thank you for having me, as always. No more travelling for you now, Soph. That's it. You're staying in Sydney.

Yes, I'm so glad I don't have to go to Brisbane. So, relief. Susie Rack, cry your eyes, mate. Dry your eyes, mate. No, dry your eyes, mate. That's what it is, isn't it? Dry your eyes, mate. Get yourself better. And my nose and your nose exactly well I was going for a joke I just messed it up

because I'm an idiot but get yourself some rest you've got a big day coming up a fair few right some parish notices

for you a reminder the Guardian Women's Football Weekly isn't just for the World Cup of course we'll be back

after a short break to bring you comprehensive weekly coverage of the 2023-24 Women's Super League season, as well as the Championship, Champions League, NWSL and everything in between as well. So make sure you subscribe so that each new episode drops into your podcast feed automatically. And while you're there, why don't you just pre-order the Football Weekly book as well? It's released at the end of September. If you pre-order now, though,

you get 20% off and it features Max Rushton, Barry Glenn Denning, our very own Johnny Liu and Robin Cowan amongst others. Bit gutted me and Susie aren't included in that, although I think we were probably

asked to be at some point and we've just been far too busy. But you can guarantee it's absolutely bloody brilliant. search the Guardian bookshop for the Football Weekly book and pre-order it today and of course get your emails to us ahead of Sunday at womensfootballweeklyattheguardian.com we'll see you then but we'll also see you for a special bonus preview pod before then so strap yourselves in everyone. Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver.

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