The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Luis Rubiales and Spain: what happens now? – Football Weekly

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

We wanted to bring you yesterday’s important episode from the Guardian’s other football podcast in which Max Rushden, Suzy Wrack, Semra Hunter, Robyn Cowen and Ceylon Andi Hickman discuss Luis Rubiales, Spain and take a look back at the World Cup. If you like what you hear, make sure to search, listen and subscribe to Football Weekly, wherever you get your podcasts

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starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. This is The Guardian. Hey, Guardian Women's Football Weekly fans. It's Faye here. We are still trying to have a well-earned break, but wanted to bring you an episode

from our older sibling, Football Weekly, which came out yesterday. In it, Susie Rack and a few other big hitters from the world of women's football discussed the Women's World Cup and, of course, all the fallout over the past few weeks. If you like what you hear, make sure you subscribe to Football Weekly

wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget, we'll be back in the next few weeks' time as we look ahead to the start of the WSL season. Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel, the only phone engineered by Google and proud partner of the England teams. Search Google Store to find out more. Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. When we planned this pod, we wanted to look back on the Women's World Cup, on the games, the moments, the genius of Bon Mati, that Sam Kerr goal,

Mary Earp swearing, the upsets, the improvements of the smaller nations without, of course, sugarcoating the difficult bits. And then along came Luis Rubiales. You probably didn't know a lot about him before the final. And then came the abuse of power, thearranted kiss the denials the fabricated statements the refusal to resign in front of a fawning audience silence from UEFA and a mother in a church on hunger strike equal parts depressing and extraordinary what does this story tell us about misogyny in the game and in the quest for equality is it right to draw big conclusions from the actions of one

man and one federation it feels so at a time when the man with four daughters who runs football is telling women just to pick your battles and choose the right doors to push and how do you reach those yelling not all men it was only a kiss that's just the latin way what about the jockey you're ruining a man's career because of your agenda in the replies this is the guardian football weekly On the panel today, fresh from being at the World Cup out in Australia, Solon Andy Hickman, hello. Hello. Fresh from commentating on the final, Robin Cowan, hello. Barely, yes.

Thank you, Max. Fresh from working, being on every single TV screen on earth, Semra Hunter, hello again. Hello. Promised a week off after the World Cup and has had to file about 10 articles and is now in a field somewhere near Southampton, camping, but is forced to do more work.

Hey, Susie Rack. Yeah, I've just left the family, locked myself in the car and told them I'm on a strike while they eat pancakes. Love it. Well, we'll get to that bit, sort of mad bit of the story. I've got a timeline. Obviously, everyone knows the story is what's happening in the story,

but I just thought it'd be worth briefly going through the events and anybody stop me if I've got this in the wrong order. But okay, so the World Cup final happens during the ceremony. Jenny Hermoso, the Spain forward, is embraced and kissed on the lips by Luis Rubiales. Hermoso later reacts to the kiss during a live stream saying she didn't enjoy it. The following day, initially Rubiales dismissed complaints about it. The Federation released a statement from Hermoso saying it was a totally spontaneous mutual gesture because of the immense joy that winning a World Cup brings.

Then a bit later that day rubiales says he's sorry for those who were offended one of those apologies um after being fiercely criticized by footballers the media the spanish prime minister a couple of days later fifa opens disciplinary proceedings um to examine rubiales's actions then on the 25th of august there's this extraordinary press conference where rubiales is expected to resign, but he doesn't. And he calls the kiss consensual. Later that day, the Spanish government says it's beginning legal proceedings seeking to suspend Rubiales. The Spanish secretary of sports says he wants this to be Spanish football's Me Too moment.

Hermoso then releases a statement saying that at no time was his kiss ever consensual and 81 Spanish players including all 23 players who went to the Women's World Cup announced they will not play for Spain's women's team until Rubiales is removed. The following day the Spanish Football Federation hits back saying it will take legal action over quote each falsehood that is spread. FIFA then announced it's provisionally suspending Rubiales for 90 days. Then George Vilder, the women's coach, criticises Rubiales, took him a few days, while his entire coaching staff resigns in protest against the Federation president. On the 27th, which is two days ago, the Federation's Delegate for Sexual Violence Protocol confirms an internal investigation into events is underway.

And yesterday, the Spanish Football Federation, so this is Rubiales, investigation into events is underway and yesterday the spanish football federation so this is rubiales asked uefa to suspend it the federation from international competitions so like the champions league i think because of government interference over demands to remove him then his mum as suzy has alluded to goes on hunger strike in a church in his hometown of motril then spanish prosecutors open preliminary investigation to see if the incident amounts to a criminal of sexual assault and yesterday the regional presidents of the Spanish Football Association have requested the immediate resignation of Luis Rubiales their statement said after the latest events and the unacceptable behaviors that have seriously damaged the image

of Spanish football the president's Mr. Luis Rubiales, immediately present his resignation as president of the RFEF. Where do we even begin? Semra. Bravo, Max, because that is not an easy summary. I'm so sorry to make, let me tell you. That was pretty nailed on, so well done to you. But there's a lot of nuances to the things that you've highlighted there.

A lot. Yeah yeah of course and i probably should thank the bbc sport website for a little bit of help with with with some of that so you know i will i will credit my sources sembra how has it been in spain this last week oh wow it's been really fascinating to watch how society here has responded to this how they've reacted to this because it's it's happened in a way in which I've never seen before in Spain you know I've been here for 15 years and and I've never seen such a one-sided response to such a delicate issue and the sense is that this kiss obviously at least it's very common knowledge here in Spain it's very public knowledge here in Spain that there is much more layers to all of this very deep dark sordid layers to all of this but there is this general consensus that the the kiss in and of itself was the straw that broke the camel's back that it was there in front of the whole world for everyone to see another example of this

pattern of behavior that has been within rife within the federation for a very long time of misogynistic sexist abuse um that is systemic within the federation that these women have been talking about for a very long time so it sparks this outrage this anger this the shame and embarrassment on a national level and people felt as though right enough is enough like this has been going on for far too long not just in football but in wider society as well and that's why the two worlds have kind of converged on this, why it has spilled over into this, what they're now calling a Me Too moment,

and why there's so much debate across the board, from people in the streets, people protesting, to people on social media, to the Spanish media itself, whether it's on television, radio, or written press, to the government, to people within football, everyone is now having this healthy debate around sexism and misogyny within Spanish society and culture. Because it has always been an issue. It's just never really been properly looked at or treated, because no one quite frankly, really cared enough to do much about it.

But now because this is such an unavoidable issue, because the whole world is looking at Spain in disgust, for the most part, I mean, obviously, there are people who have seen nothing wrong with all of this. Spain does feel as though the reputation of the country is very much on the line here, not to mention the political aspects as it relates to the 2030 World Cup bid.

So people are taking this incredibly seriously. They have massively been in Jenny's corner throughout this entire episode. They are so disgraced and ashamed by the constant behavior of the Federation the whole way through this, and not just the Federation, Rubiales himself, because there have been some pretty horrible details that have come to light in the last week about Rubiales's apology, for example, or the statement that you mentioned that Jenny supposedly put out, which as it turns out, according to reports here, and even Jenny herself, she never actually wrote any of that. I'm sorry, I know this is quite a long answer, but it's... No, no, I'm fine.

It's just, there's so much that has been packed in in these last nine days because it has been such an intense moment. But people are really treating this now as a transformative moment for society and culture and really hoping that we continue the momentum to really bring about positive change in society and in football. I just want to, from the rest of the panel,

how this sort of mad week has made you feel, not necessarily professionally, just, you know, as women who love football and seeing this completely take over the news from what would have been, we just had a great World Cup, Robin. It's made me feel really fucking angry, really angry. And also so desperately sad for those spanish players because basically i'm hoping in a few years time that you know they will be able to kind of look back and remember the kind of moment they lifted the trophy and the moment they scored the goal and

and things like that but basically for everyone else that's forgotten this is all they're going to remember um and it and it's awful to say but it's like maybe this is you know hopefully this will turn out to be a good thing um because if they hadn't won this wouldn't have been exposed but again this a lot of other female footballers and other other prominent female people have said we shouldn't have to win to be heard and unfortunately this is what happens this is this is kind of the only way that women can be heard is that you you have a measure of success and then and then you kind of start demanding things or you get assaulted in public and then you get gaslighted. I mean, it's just, honestly, and I just don't want to say,

Semra, you have been doing the Lord's work. I've seen you, honestly, I don't know, if you have slept even, you're on everywhere kind of spreading the word. You've done just so respect to you. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, no, I was going to say, all of those things in the, yeah, very angry. Also, just so utterly unsurprised, right? Like, I mean, we know this happens all the time, every day, in pretty much every workplace

and every facet of society because football mirrors society. It's not removed from it. But I'm also slightly delighted because my big fear with Spain winning the World Cup was that this would be a moment for the federation and Jorge Vilda to really double down and assert their authority over the 15 players that signed the letter last year. And, you know, they've never played for Spain again. They really feel like assured in their power.

And I really thought they were going to use it as an opportunity to, to consolidate everything that we're now seeing is utterly disgustingly corrupt. And instead, and they could have still done that even with the kiss, right? Like if Ruby Arles had just come out straight away and said that i made a terrible mistake this was outrageous i shouldn't have done this i apologize profusely to jenny um we will have an internal investigation um and you know i you know it's appalling i'm gonna go on awareness training you know he could have done all of that and probably would have been able to brush it under the carpet to a certain extent. But instead, he decided to set fire to his house.

And there is something quite incredible about watching someone who is clearly, you know, so deeply ingrained with misogyny and sexism, trying to dig themselves out of a hole and just making it worse and worse and worse but in the process exposing the machismo of spanish society in general the systematic um and not just in spanish society it's just like particularly acute maybe at this moment in time there but like everywhere and that's really satisfying you know something that it was as simple as a kiss that you know maybe in in other scenarios other times would be like a slap on the wrist thing has exposed so much more than that and so I'm like I'm like actually quite happy that it's doing that and it's we've covered them on this podcast before like Afghanistan Argentina Colombia you know Zambia the the list

of countries that have had abuse in sports cases harassment sexual abuse whatever it may be like is really really long i think when me and ed aarons were doing a list uh to be published we reached 35 or 6 we could only actually publish the details of 16 to see it like provoke a bit of a reckoning is satisfying at the same time as like the anger and like sadness for you know the fact that any woman has to go through this to be able to have reckoning very briefly i just want to back what you were saying there because the feeling in spain is that this is karmic justice that this has had to happen for a very long time and I think it's important to understand the wider context of who this man is and his past which we

can come to we don't have to talk about it now but we very much have been sitting on Mount Vesuvius for a long time the tensions have been boiling they've been brewing underneath the surface and now you're absolutely right they have just exploded everywhere in a way that I think no one really saw coming so it's it's so much deeper than just a kiss I'm sorry it just drives me nuts when people say what's the bigger it's a kiss it's not it really isn't and for so many different reasons yeah I feel really similar I think to Susie I think and I think it's really important to say they shouldn't have to win for this to have come to light. But they did warn us and they warned us a long time ago by trying to rally together as a team

and use the power they had at their disposal at the time by writing the letter, 15 of them going on strike to say we're not happy with the conditions in which we're playing football in. They did warn us and unfortunately it has taken them to go against the odds, 15 of them going on strike to say, we're not happy with the conditions in which we're playing football in. They did warn us. And unfortunately, it has taken them to go against the odds, win a tournament, do that largely themselves. And then this, a horrible act of abuse to happen in the workplace, so publicly on a stage. And that is the really sad bit in what Robin was saying,

that this is clouded for those players and the players' families and the fans and all the people who just wanted, who just wanted, they didn't ask for much, but they just wanted to be athletes, win a competition and be able to enjoy that victory. Now, they can just be athletes and women should have the privilege of just being an athlete and not having to stand for something more that that we have to start there I do feel an immense sort of pride and fire of a full women's football in the women's football community because without that community and without what we saw happening and people holding people like Semra holding holding these people to account we don't get this result we don't get this attempt at justice and I think that is a beautiful thing about women's football as a whole is that if you see something you'll

call out and there was always going to be forms of injustice in the world and I think there's a beautiful thing that women's football can be a space that does hold itself to standards of social justice and use its power and its platform as far as it can to deliver those things and I think where else do you get those feelings I don't get them in politics I don't get them in in the street that I live in I don't get this sense of kind of solidarity eclecticism a kind of people power that you can overcome systems of abuse and and systems of power and the fact that we are seeing it topple like in front of our eyes because these women have stood up for something and they've continued to fight for something and and the

whole community around them has also put that pressure on that is a beautiful thing because otherwise we don't we don't get to justice without that so whilst I feel an anger and a sadness for the individual players for the fans and the families I do also feel that kind of pride and sort of fire to keep going and to keep saying, well, this is our game, right? We're going to solve this. We're not going to solve misogyny in Spain. We're not going to solve misogyny

in institutions in football. But let's start here. Let's chip away at it and then let's go to the next thing. And that's where I think about Zambia and I think about Jamaica and I think about these other teams who've had these problems,

their federations, and they're probably sitting there thinking, well, we're never going to win a World Cup. So when's the world going to turn for us? When's the world going to help us? And I think that's the anger that we need to take from this situation whenever it gets resolved and go to those next federations and say, right, well, let's start solving it there as well. Getting rid of Luis Rubiales.

I'm assuming he will go at some point although perversely I've really enjoyed him doubling down quadrupling down I'm almost if he does resign I'd be a bit sad actually because I want to see what he does well you know what I don't think he will so I want to see your wish this is going to turn into like OJ Simpson car chase isn't it I mean mean. Knowing this podcast, Robin, he will have gone after recording and before this podcast is out. Your voice notes will be there. He's a special case, I've got to say.

But the point is, he goes, there's got to be more. Because it's not just him, as we see. Well, that's what I wanted to ask, Robin. Or, I mean, Simmer's probably the right person. There were these people, Jorge Vilda, who applauded along with the Spanish men's manager there were you know lots of people applauding in that room who suddenly sort of see which way the wind's blowing going actually do you know what I've really had to think about this and actually do you know what I don't think it was all right I might have done last Sunday but I've really had a

bit of time to think about this and you sort of think well well I don't know do you think well it's good they finally come around or you know fuck you like it was it's so obvious i have to say i think it's a load of bullshit his statement as well as luis de la fuente they both put up statements at similar times after that assembly and it was very similar in nature in that um oh yes know, improper behaviour by Rubiales. We stand by, you know, victims of sexual abuse and we don't condone that kind of behaviour, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. For a bit of context, Jorge Vilder's statement said, amongst other things, there is no doubt that it is unacceptable

and does not reflect at all the principles and values that I defend in my life in sport in general and in football in particular I condemn without doubt any macho attitude which should be far from an advanced and developed society a clearly undesirable climate has been generated far from what should have been a great celebration of Spanish sport and women's sport there's no mention of Johnny Hermoso there. There's no support for Gianni Hermoso. There's no support for any of his players. Oh, I didn't resign either. I'm still going to stay in the federation, even though I don't have a coaching staff. Oh yeah, Rubiales also announced publicly he's going to pay me half a million a

year and give me a four-year contract. He also made me basically untouchable within the federation because he chose me instead of the 15 women when all of this went down. The whole way through the World Cup, if you listen to his press conferences, Rubiales, it's always this mentality of us versus them. It's like we're defeating those women who didn't want to be here.

And, you know, we are the shit and we're the men. And it's this kind of toxic masculinity in the way that they were approaching this whole thing, rather than focusing on the women that were actually doing really well at the tournament. And that also kind of blended into the whole crotch-grabbing incidents on the stands as well. So I personally think that those statements

are just a load of rubbish. I think they felt the pressure that they had to say something, but it was a very watered down version of criticism compared to literally everybody else who has been adamantly and actively calling for both of them, as well as everyone else in the Federation, to go. Although, Susie, UEFA have, as far as I know, said nothing, right?

Which is extraordinary. He's a UEFA have, as far as I know, said nothing, right? Which is extraordinary. He's a UEFA vice president. He's also on various committees. He's either the president or the vice president of a committee that's in charge of women's competitions in Europe, so the Women's Champions League and things. Like, he is very senior on that committee. The idea that he can exist in that body in any way it is surreal and i mean it shows like it exposes all

the power dynamics right doesn't it like exposed like obviously in spain in the federation it's all completely exposed you know how protected jorgeville has been even just the fact that someone in that building is willing to post those insane statements on the website like if that was me i like that that is my red line i'm walking out the door and not posting that online right like there's no way i would work for an organization would do that and it shows like how absolute the power control within that organization is how rotten it is they're all singing from the same hymn sheet they they put people in power that think the same way as them because it protects them and then you see it in europe as well clearly he's got to be like best buds with uh sephirah

and like how could he not be like how can how can it be so silent without without that being the case without there being some kind of like what does he know both in spain and in europe what does uh rubiales know that's the big question but also the thing that really like is brought forward to me in the whole thing is like why can't we get rid of these people why is there no democracy here why is there no like why is there no way of getting rid of Rubiales without FIFA suspending him from football activity and the government intervening why is it not the case that there is a like a democratically elected board within the federation that can remove their president and that can elect someone

new and there is a representative but why isn't every single federation set up like that where it's that easy to bring someone in and remove them it's because there's so much money involved isn't it but like it's yeah uh frustrating that they're able to just get this stranglehold on power like they can and then basically do whatever the hell they want with it and we still can't get rid of them yeah it reminds me of um kat craig suzy and i's friend and the human rights lawyer who evacuated the afghanistan women women's national team what she says which is the sport um pulled off the biggest trick in the world when it convinced the world that it should govern itself and I think this is that in action right and these these systems that have often they have been designed well they are

designed by the men who are benefiting from them almost exclusively from women like I don't think these systems and these institutions have had women in power and leadership when they were started because often we weren't you know allowed in football at these points definitely in a UK context and then they have built systems that allow them to keep benefiting from the power that they have in those systems they genuinely feel untouchable as in that's how they move through the world they're like i cannot be touched i can do anything because my mate is here and he will protect me and my friend is here and actually i wrote the rules for this system so you know my rules go and you

see that through grabbing of the crotch you see that through the kiss you see that through all of the responses afterwards that they feel so safe and so protected by this system that they have built. And then we know that that happens, but then what we're doing in the evolution of the women's game is assuming that women's football slots into these systems and should benefit from these systems and should be governed by these systems. And we're hoping that by putting a few women at different points throughout that system, that everything will be OK and that we will govern correctly and we will be able to ensure that women are protected in them.

But it is basic, audrey lord, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. We cannot rely on the same systems that create systems of oppression, abuse, have these men protected at the top of them to then benefit women athletes. I just, I cannot see a world in where, you know, the Spanish Federation suddenly turns around and invests in women's football and protects women athletes. The president stood up in his speech and equated this movement to false feminism. He was clapped by the women's national team manager

and the men's national team manager on the front row. He called it false feminism he was clapped by the women's national team manager and the men's national team manager on the front row he called it false feminism like you we can't go any further like where how do you come back from that i really i don't know and i have no faith in these institutions you have to build different ones or you have to completely tear them down and start again just just on that i i can't verify this but i saw a tweet saying in the spanish football federation it has 140 members and six of them are women and yeah so and i think that's probably i can't imagine it's very different anywhere else especially in football and and this is the problem this is this is the problem and i don't know if like a rudy rule is is the answer but something this is it this this is the problem. I know Barry kept saying, you know,

this is all part of the same thing. When you were talking about Mason Greenwood, you were talking about having people in football clubs like Lucy Ward, where you have women, female role models, because a lot of the, you know, a lot of them just have their mum, or maybe not even that. And it's just the way they interact with women and things like that.

So I just think that's an illustration. 140 members, six are women. And there you go. All right, that'll do for part one. We'll carry on this chat in part two. Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. i'm trying to broaden it out a bit and and i wonder like you don't bring people with you by yelling at them right i did a thing on talk sport about misogyny in football and i just said you have to call it out right you have to

call it out in whatsapp groups you know on the training ground wherever you are right and that can sometimes be difficult because it's much easier just to ignore it because people don't like confrontation but you have to you have to do it and i got a lot of replies saying you know what about the jockey there was a horse race where a female owner kissed a male jockey on the lips there was i think somebody you probably have seen a female contestant on spanish master chef kissing a judge who said i was uncomfortable and he was told to grow a pair and enjoy it and i just and i had so many replies like like this like it's sort of that's why i took time off twitter right it's depressing but and it's so obvious to me how it is different, right?

The power dynamic of men having power over women for years, thousands of years, whatever. It seems obvious to me. But how do we give up on those people? How do we bring them along? Because yelling at them doesn't work. Patronizing doesn't work. I don't know.

I don't know if anyone has an answer, because I suspect all of you in your careers have seen this because I won't have seen it, right? When I'm trying to get anywhere, it just won't happen to me. But I don't know if anyone has any idea or if that makes any sense. I mean, I hope that cases like this

help expose that it's not just that one moment, right? Like that it is so much deeper, that there is so much more there, that it's not just that one moment right like that it is so much deeper that there is so much more there that is so much broader and so much underlying it and it's because if you take it as an isolated incident one person kissed another person they weren't that happy with it they've loosely apologized like in like complete and utter isolation i mean still wrong but you know you can like sort of say well okay not that big a deal but that's if you literally remove it from every single thing we know about society and what it does to women but also just power dynamics in general in football as well like are horrific and i think that that's why it becomes a little bit a breeding ground is the wrong word

like particularly useful for abusers because it's very easy to get into it's very unregulated and there's uh yeah there's so little control over what a coach is doing in a kid's game let alone in a in an adult's game and like you know amateur football or senior level you know if it can go on a senior level think of what's going on all the way through the system right like so i hope that this kind of thing blowing up the way it has and like people drawing the broader points help people who think oh but it's just a kiss it happened on masterchef or whatever see that it's more than that like i hope that that it's that kind of level of of exposure of the system helps people who are more genuine like because obviously you get the

trolls who are literally just winding up merchants and you get misogynists who actually genuinely don't give a crap but then there are people who genuinely are just like oh well is it that bad i i really hope that the way it's like shown all of the problems within spanish society generally like opens their eyes to why it's more than just a kiss that's that is my hope i think you have to one you have to decide where your energy is best spent and whose energy is best spent where in this and i think that's where you have to go where these people are at and what their influences are and if you can infiltrate those influences then you will you're more likely to

for them to listen and I think that's where allyship is really really important so Max every time you speak about misogyny on Talksport on this podcast or wherever you have a platform it is so much more powerful than me tweeting about misogyny or me talking about on this thing because we speak to very different audiences you are much more likely to convince a spread of society that I never will have a sort of mouthpiece to really or see me as too different from them so wouldn't don't relate right so that's where allyship is really really important whatever platform you have being able to shine a light on this so that those people who are in that gray area who think oh i you know i've seen that kiss as one thing and actually now i'm

learning it's another thing they will start to see that their initial viewpoint was in is beginning to become in the minority and that's not a fun place to be for these people they don't want to be in they don't want to be ostracized they don't want to be marginalized which is often the reverse of the power dynamic usually right where the people calling it out are the people who ostracize the marginalized if you can flip that balance where the people saying it's okay start to feel marginalized they will come but that's where the allyship is even more important from male footballers male professional footballers which has been amazing to see that you know the handful that have come out

and probably the ones that you know um hector bellarine obviously was one of my favorite things that he said but where the rest is pretty silent where's everyone else where's the same energy that you bring for mendy when something like this happens and that's where we have to keep holding these players to account because if they say something and they tweet something and they put someone on Instagram stories millions of young men worldwide will go whoa okay well if he thinks that then maybe I should reconsider this that's what's really really important here and that's why it's such a shame we haven't seen enough of that yet and that's why also in Spain so many people are calling out these male footballers and saying

where are you I mean some are going even to the extreme of saying well you're just as complicit than in your silence the fact that you actually haven't taken a stance and it would be so very easy for you to take a stance in theory obviously I mean they'll have their reasons as to why they're not doing it but these people feel as though it is so blatantly obvious what is happening here I mean just show a little bit of support and solidarity but by and large no one has said anything in Spain or even in the wider male football community so that is certainly something that here locally people have been calling out and in terms of going back to your question Max about how we can try and maybe bring other people to the side there has been a really interesting shift in Spain in the last week where people who were initially on the side of Rubiales

have actually switched allegiances and they have taken the time to learn why this was so inappropriate to educate themselves or to be educated to listen and they have said actually you know what I own up to my mistake I was wrong what I thought before was right was actually incorrect and I think it has to do with the deeply ingrained nature of sexist behavior that is just prevalent within society and culture. I mean, a lot of the times we're just not even aware of it because it's just there and it's existed for so long and because nobody has called out or fought against it. But now people are here are really starting to wake up to the realization of, oh my God, the way I was seen before was actually totally and utterly incorrect. So it does come down to education, to wider context in this case specifically the wider

context is so incredibly important because you do have to look at this person to kind of determine well maybe it was just a one-off accident yes he should have apologized but didn't so why why didn't he well then let's look into the past here let's try and figure out who he is and what he's all about but that's why you have to look at these things from a lot of different angles. And maybe that's the way that we can try and teach people about these kinds of instances and say, listen, we also need your help and your support. We can't do this alone. And I think that's been the nice thing about Spain in the last week is that so many male

colleagues in the media in particular have actually been speaking out against this and have been trying to teach people hey you know what this way of thinking isn't right i think part of the problem is that you you like so the male footballers they are products of the system of men's football right like they have been groomed for into that environment from the ages of like five, six, seven years old, the way they are so valued and like as literally as assets, financially valuable assets for clubs makes them feel immortal as well. Like it makes them feel that they can get away with anything. That's why I just think you just got to tear everything down and start again. I just don't think football is savable.

I don't think you can make men's football better. I think FIFA needs to go. I think, you know, the fact FIFA have been... I can just hear Philippe Auclair like applauding, like standing ovation as you say this. But like FIFA have been talking about a safe sport entity, right? They've been talking about this safe sport entity, right? They've been talking about this safe sport entity that they are going to bring in that is going to sort of handle all these abuse cases,

going to operate independently, blah, blah, blah, survivor-led, consulting stakeholders, et cetera. Where is it? Where is that body? They are dragging their feet and they are making stakeholders, including victims very very angry about the fact that this hasn't come in you know they've done all this consultation

where is that where is that body where is that body they promised to deal with the ones like Haiti and Zambia and Afghanistan like where where is it one slice of optimism when we talk about burning it all down and starting again which often can feel like quite figurative and you know we don't actually know what that means in person is that we do have that moment right now in england with the with nuko which is a new entity being designed built at the moment shaped for what will take forward the governance and shape of women's professional football domestically in this country and that is why we're at such a critical point, why Karen Carney's review was really, really important

just before the tournament, because that was setting out, you know, the voices of the sector saying, this is what Newco needs to look and feel like. And we have an opportunity to shape an institution, not in the same way that the Premier League has been shaped, in a new way that listens to and feels like the women's game and protects those interests so when we say that when we talk about we need new systems and new institutions one we have an opportunity right now and that's really important that we continue to

follow that process closely and hold it to account because it can't just go the same way as the men's game but secondly i think it needs to happen on a much broader scale. We cannot rely on institutions like FIFA, UEFA, the Spanish Federation, all these things to protect women and athletes anymore because they've shown time and time again that they just don't. Can we briefly talk about Rubiales' mum,

which is arguably not the most important, but definitely the funniest part of this story. On Monday, the news agency FA reported that she'd shut herself into the Divina Pastora Church in Matril, deciding to remain there with her sister after the parish priest left. She planned to stay indefinitely day and night, adding that she declared a hunger strike until a solution could be found to what she described as the unwarranted, inhumane and bloodthirsty hunt of her son, to which Carol asks how soon before she starts eating the unwarranted, inhumane and bloodthirsty hunt of her son, to which Carol asks how soon before

she starts eating the candles. And Fraser said, at what time do you think this man will come to her senses and say, fuck this for a game of soldiers and demand a giant plate of patatas bravas brought to the church that she's barricaded herself. Is she still in there, Simra? As far as I know, yes.

Oh, a psychotherapist. A psychotherapist would have an absolute field day with the mother the mother-son dynamic suzy your son's a bit older now but you know i still go to a lot of play groups with mine and we all know those mums their child could do no wrong and this is what happens oh it's definitely an extreme version of that. She's repeatedly saying, oh, my son could never hurt anyone. He would never do something like this. And Jenny, tell the truth, please. And yeah, she's said to be a very, very religious woman.

And I guess his calling to the higher power to try and bring about some justice for her son that she really seems to think that he deserves. So it's really wild. This is Infantino, right? She's picked her battle. Exactly. But the thing is, a church door is quite heavy, right? If that's the door you're going to push, right? That's a tough one.

Apparently she's a strong little old lady, I guess. Using the power of divine intervention. It's going to make such a good Netflix series, isn't it, when it comes out? I can already picture the church on top of the hill, the woman, the mother slugging up the hill, all the villages lining the path. It's a beautiful image.

It's almost symbolic of him, you know, going up on the hill and dying on that hill in a way as well. Yeah, totally. All right, that'll do for part two. We'll talk about the World Cup, which is what we wanted to do in the first place in part three. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly Salon. You were out in Australia, as you were Susie, as you were Robin.

You said before the pod it was the best month of your life, Salon. It was just a beautiful tournament. And I think everything around the World Cup, the people I shared it with, the places we got to go to, the games we got to watch, it was amazing. And I think it was made even better by the narratives of this tournament and actually some of the football that was played and the kind of yeah upsetting the conventional power systems in women's football was also a really nice narrative

um but yeah I think Australia and New Zealand put on an excellent tournament and they know how to do live sport out there um it was just yeah it was glorious yeah echo that although i mean salon clearly had a very different tournament for me i mean hers looked like the absolute just the dream holiday on her instagram just looked like just 100 fun and games whereas i had my toddler there so you sent me a photo of soft soft play in north sydney or whatever that's you know yeah isn't a holiday no i'm not not exactly kind of taking in the culture when you go to a soft play when you're out there. But no, I agree with Solon.

Just a lovely atmosphere. Everyone was so excited. It was just an absolute pleasure to be there and just to be around. And yeah, and obviously the football was incredible. And you just got, it was just like story after story after story. And I don't really think there was a dud game. There was always something to kind of get your teeth into.

And yeah, fair play. I mean, I don't, you know, you've been in Australia for quite a while now, Max. I mean, I know it's different kind of, you know, you're just visiting. But it just, for me anyway, personally with my family there, like everything worked. There was public transport that worked, like infrastructure, like stuff for kids, you know, changing facilities.

Do you know what I mean? Like everything that at the moment we don't really have here in abundance, if you see what I mean. Susie, I'm so bored of asking, is this not a turning point? Or like, you know, is this not a turning point? Or like, you know, is this a statement tournament?

I feel like, you know, people have said that. And maybe I should just stop asking that question because if you're just repeatedly asking it after every tournament and there was just so much

good football to enjoy that perhaps I don't need to ask it. But at the same time, it did feel like that. Yeah, I mean, the fact that it grossed like over half a billion dollars, pounds, I don't know, whatever it was that they've said it's grossed. And it's the second most money-making, my words are going,

money-making tournament in the world behind the Men's World Cup speaks to it reaching a new level, right? And the turnouts and the viewing figures were just insane i mean there was it like six 50 60 million of people something watched the um the uh england china game in china like just the levels uh uh insane um and i think like all that matters like it's all accelerating it's the growth is continuing blah blah but for me it's I we're obviously harking back to the past bit but it's um being a tournament that has really highlighted all of the struggles in a really important way

like that said yes this is all great this is all growing this is all amazing um Australia like was just such a world away from France four years ago where you know it was like a tournament wasn't happening so then this is here we love it we're invested in it as a country the fan parks amazing but then you've got all of these issues and all of these teams performing despite these issues and i just feel like it's just a little bit of a like come on now match these women's expectations and talents and demands and like just be better because you know it's not just like I like that it's now not just the um the so-called third world countries that are the ones that are having trouble too you know like I think that's important because it shows it can happen anywhere and everywhere and uh you know will hopefully help

drive change in the others but like you yeah you know you've got england fighting over bonuses you've got spain with all of this going on you've got the usa still fighting um to to defend their right to talk about equal pay even even though they don't win. You've got, you know, France obviously have had their various issues, but then you've got the Zambias. You've got the Jamaica crowd planting to get there. You've got the South Africans going on strike before the tournament to, you know,

like in demand of pay and better conditions and things like that. Like there's all of these issues and yet it was still this incredible tournament it was so good um the football was brilliant like the support was brilliant it was just so excellent um as an event and they're doing it all imagine what it could be right like imagine how good it could be and that's like what i keep harking back to is like i just want people to open and i think more people will as a result of this tournament because all of these stories were very very well covered i feel like on a level that maybe they haven't been before and i feel like they were connected together more than they

have been before but i i hope that it it means that it's not just a accelerated growth accelerated growth with those still going on. And we actually like, yeah, it has a little bit of a reckoning about what it's all built on as well. It felt like quite a powerful tournament in that regard. It felt like, whereas in the past, when you have issues off pitch in women's football, they've kind of come from like a deficit place,

like not from a place of strength. We're watching these teams who have got you know lots of institutional problems happening being battered and and falling out of tournaments whereas this time what you had was like negotiating from a place of strength of like we're going to perform on the pitch and play really well we're going to get results we're going to progress to knockouts and we're going to surprise everyone but we also then going to be able to advocate and talk about what's going on off pitch knockouts and we're going to surprise everyone but we also then going to be able to advocate and talk about what's going on off pitch for us and that for me felt like a

bit of a shift in in kind of the women's game I'd say obviously I was watching it from a distance because I was um not in Australia unfortunately or New Zealand I would have loved to have been there but in the end it didn't happen for me um So I got the other kind of side of the coin in that I got to experience Spain winning in Spain and seeing the reaction to that here locally. And I think what was so exciting was to see how the mentality and the mindset around what they were capable of doing really shifted throughout the course of the tournament. I mean, we've already highlighted ad nauseum about the whole situation what's going on with the

federation and the women's national team but because of the huge fallout in the lead-up to this to this tournament people in Spain didn't give them a fighting chance no one thought they were going to do well everyone thought they would crash out in the group stage so initially people thought well I mean obviously we'll support them but maybe we're just not going to watch because we're shamed of the whole thing and we're so disgraced by the way that the federation are handling this whole thing but then as they kind of defiantly stood against everything and as you know Salem was just describing there it was almost this well actually we're going to take a stand and despite all of the bullshit and the shit that's going on in the shadows in the background we're

actually going to come together and prove that we can still win no matter what and so as they progressed the tournament and not just progressed I mean I think it's fair to say they really were the best team across the entire um world cup they were very consistent they played some beautiful football the exception being Japan of course um and so it really caused a lot of people to sit up and take notice and to start watching games. And we had record-breaking numbers of audiences in the quarterfinals and the semifinals and, of course, the final itself as well. People started going to pubs to watch the game.

They started putting out fan zones across the country. People were tuning up by the numbers. So it really garnered a lot of excitement and people were thrilled about it. And not just the fact that it was going to be the women that were on the brink of doing something historic, but also the idea of Spain overall, just as a nation winning a World Cup again, it is a huge source of pride here. So it was really nice to see the exponential growth of interest and support that kind of grew along throughout the four weeks. But, you know, it's turned into what it's turned into, unfortunately.

Yeah. Is Sam Kerr's goal the moment of the tournament, Robin? Because it came absolutely nowhere and it was so good. It was and it was deafening. The only thing is it did take a little deflection and as you know that kind of just just devalues it just a tiny tiny bit because it took a little deflection but no i think um we needed a kerr goal um we needed that and yeah when that went in oh i mean that is

the loudest um i've ever been in a a women definitely a women's football game probably even just a football game um so i'm glad she got that moment and um but but that was it just a moment and then england went on to win um that game i think that was that was the that was just an incredible game to to be at um i still feel really sick that england didn't win the final honestly i'm still better luck next time eh oh man i mean the like it's kind of like the the whole spanish thing's kind of take obviously taken over but when i just think about the football like oh man i'd be like you actually um max after the men's Euros I imagine I still feel really sick about it what a chance

yeah but we didn't really we just didn't really turn up no but why not turn up it's a final I just thought Spain were just that good they were just that much better I find it hard to obviously there were moments

you know, hitting the bar in the first half and things like that where you thought this could swing the game. You thought the substitution, the change of formation, like, slightly wrong choices not to leave a target person up there and just Lauren Hemp, things like that, that maybe could have made a difference. But Spain were just so, so good.

I struggle to resent the win like they they deserved they would deserve to win it because they were just so much better it's like it hurts that England didn't and I hate seeing I hate doing mid zones when uh when players are all so sad it's horrible they hate us for being there and asking questions like we have to do it it's our job it's your job set the narrative of defeat the. We have to do it. It's our job. It's your job. Set the narrative of defeat the way you want to do it. But it's just horrible speaking to players that are crying their eyes out. But yeah, I just struggle to not love Spain's win now

for what it's doing as well more broadly. That's the thing, isn't it? I mean, they've had the biggest win of their lives, but in some ways they've actually managed to get an even bigger win and a much more important win. I would have been heartbroken, and I was heartbroken the final whistle watching Jorge Vilder celebrate. But you had this, I had this sense that if this win doesn't mean something

for women much broader than what is going on right now in front of us, then I will be gutted. But actually, everything that has happened, it was Spain's time to win. broader than what is going on right now in front of us then I will be gutted but actually everything that has happened it was Spain's time to win they've had their time to win and they've won for a reason and they've used that for a reason similarly we won for a reason last summer we had our moment we will get our moment again this team will come back England will win a world cup I believe in the next 10, 12, 16 years, whatever. But Spain's time was now and it will do so much more for football,

for the sport, for Spain than what us taking it home would have done. The big one I was jealous about that I wasn't there, Salon, you were at Colombia, Germany, weren't you? Oh my God, the best game I've ever been to in my life. It was in, i sat right behind the colombian dugout and when the linda goal went in but then the final the the winner when when germany equalized in the last 10 minutes and the 80 plus wasn't it i thought oh gutting but a mad result for colombia getting a point out of this they should be happy and then when they won it was oh my god it was unbelievable scenes

going on and the bench were incredible and then we drew Columbia and I was like I don't want to knock out Columbia I'm a Columbia fan it was one of the best games I've been to honestly. You didn't, you almost couldn't do the final could you? Two hours before I wasn't going to, no Serious? Yeah

that was a bad day lost my voice what happened yeah lost my voice after the semi-final and yeah it was I mean don't want to be too self-indulgent but it was it was a terrible terrible few days really how did you get it back I didn't really I just I tried to rest it and that wasn't working so I just started talking and then it kind of came back but not not how I'd like so I wasn't I'm I'm not very happy with my final either so a bit like the lionesses not my best work I think you didn't turn up cow exactly go absolute disgrace yeah exactly we'll we'll finish with a compliment for you Robin from

another Robin says I haven't heard anyone mention it. Can you please tell Robin that her comment about Infantino walking through open doors to get to the trophy lift is absolutely fucking brilliant. Me and my wife were distraught after the final whistle. This made us laugh so much. So whether it was the croaky voice or not, you made your point. That's very kind. Can you say it again for those of us such as myself who didn't have the pleasure of listening to that comment? I just thought, you know, he'd made his way down to the stage through a lot of open doors that he proclaims there are many.

Yeah, so that was interesting that he was there. Did you write that in beforehand? Had you written that in? Yeah, I thought, you know, I thought, is he going to be part of the presentation party? Of course he is. Of course Gianni's going to be there. And how is he going to get there? I'm sure he will you know, if he's, I thought, is he going to be part of the presentation party? Of course he is. Of course Janny's going to be there.

And how is he going to get there? I'm sure he will, well, probably not through open doors. He was probably, I don't know, lifted like a sultan

or something, but, you know. Anyway, that'll do for today. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, Solon. Thanks so much, guys.

Thanks, Semra. Thank you very much, everyone. Cheers, Robin. Thanks, everyone. That was really cathartic. Thank you. And Susie, go back to your pancakes. Yeah, I know, right?

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