The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Sam Kerr and Chelsea deliver again at Wembley – Women’s Football Weekly

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Faye Carruthers is joined by Suzanne Wrack, Jamie Spencer and Claire Rafferty to look back at a third consecutive FA Cup crown for Chelsea

This is The Guardian. Assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Sam Kerr backflips her way into the Wembley record books again as Chelsea get another one up on United to win a third consecutive FA Cup. Emma Hayes outmanoeuvred Mark Skinner to stop United from winning their first piece of silverware in front of a record crowd. We'll dissect the final, look ahead to a huge weekend in the WSL, plus take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

Well, what an incredible panel we have today. Susie Rack, I just love keeping up with you. I mean, we obviously keep up with each other on whatsapp but the lino art I am loving I might buy some from you and then working on the floor outside Wembley with the glamour of journalism oh yeah yeah that was rough we were there for a good half an hour after being chucked out about seven of us sat on the floor still typing not the best facilities in the world for journalists after games I think they forget that once the final whistle goes whilst most of their jobs stop I'll start no not very

helpful but at least it wasn't raining um listen we have in the red corner if I could do a boxing analogy but I'm not very good at that I don't have that wonderful I mean to be fair I probably wouldn't be doing this podcast if I did because because I think he earns an absolute fortune, Mr. Ring Announcer. I can't remember what his name is. But in the red corner, we have Manchester United writer for 90 Min, Jamie Spencer. Double debut today. How are you doing, Jamie? It's really good to be here. Thanks for inviting me. It feels like the big leagues in called up. Well, I'm just going to apologise for the next hour in that case, because it might not feel like that by the end.

And then in the blue corner and actually wearing blue as well, which is impressive. Two time FA Cup winner with Chelsea, Claire Rafferty. It's so good to see you, Raff. You all right? Hello, hello, hello. Yeah, wearing blue today. Happy after the weekend. Yeah, very grateful to be on the platform today. Excellent. Well, it's lovely to have you. A double debut, Susie. This is incredible.

We better up our game. Right. Now, I'm just going to caveat this because this is where we're going to start, obviously, at Wembley. I'm not going to take credit for this, but it made me giggle. So thank you, producer Jessie.

Football is a simple game. 22 women chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, Sam Kerr scores, which is pretty inevitable. A third consecutive FA Cup for Chelsea, back to back to back. It's something that hasn't been achieved since Arsenal won four on the bounce between 2006 and 2010 Susie how impressive an achievement is that given the landscape of women's football today it's much more competitive isn't it oh yeah and like if anything I would say this is the most impressive Chelsea FA Cup win of those three as well given the context of like how much stronger the the league is as a whole you know you've got almost this four horse like title race right until the end of the season or till close to the end of the season

anyway and you've got a Chelsea team who have had their own set of injuries be missing really key players haven't like maybe had the swagger that they've had in recent years so like with all that context like for me this is the most impressive because they're they're doing it despite all of that still winning and that that's what I think is is really great yeah how much has this Chelsea side developed Raph since you were at the club because obviously you know this incredible run of trophies didn't come by accident the seeds were planted a long time ago yeah of course you look when I when I look at that team and I know obviously the first half was it wasn't great for Chelsea um I still had that belief and I think that's what it is all about Chelsea now that winning mentality I know it sounds cliche but I think we've been in the

position in the past where we didn't have the ability to win games and ride them out and actually have the patience and experience to do so. But seeing kind of the unfaulted personality and endeavour from the team, even though, you know, they weren't at their best, is exactly what Emma has worked so hard to install. Yeah, they just know how to win, don't they? Mentality monsters, in inverted commas, to use that moniker again. Jamie, it was obviously a first FA Cup final appearance for Manchester United. How do you think they're going to reflect on the day going forward? If I could just answer through my tears, it's bittersweet because obviously they've got the experience of playing in that game. But because they lost, it's always going to be a negative in that sense. But they've taken setbacks before over the last 18 months or so,

particularly under Mark Skinner, and he's always said that those are important learning curves. So in that sense, it will. But in any way, it could have been more... It would have almost been easier to swallow had it been a comfortable defeat in that sense. The fact that it was 1-0, the fact that they were the best team for probably about an hour. They had more possession, more shots, more shots on target, had chances, penalty, borderline, was it, was it not?

No. I think that was their best chance to beat Chelsea. A lot had been made about having never beaten Chelsea before. And obviously the games were getting a lot closer from the 6-1 at the start of last season, the 4-2 when they were winning twice at Kings Meadow, and then 1-0 only a few weeks ago, and then 1-0 again. And I think I said to someone during the match, when United were on top and not scoring, that just wait for some player to score the winner at some point and obviously

she did so it's quite hard to swallow in that sense yeah we'll talk about some of those missed chances in a second but obviously Kerr's 68th minute goal proved to be the winner um Susie it could have all been very different though as Jamie alluded to there Manchester United roared out the blocks at the start of this match what was it 23 seconds for Leah Galton yeah the 23 seconds that like shouldn't have existed should it because like the the lineswoman should have had her flag up like way sooner and it just shouldn't have played out because it was basically this whole long passage of play that just didn't need to happen that's completely pointless and me and Johnny Liu were sat there just going, well, that was like a great 20 seconds of our lives we'll never get back. Yeah, I just don't understand why they don't just get the flag up right away

for something like that, why you let it go on so far for the ball to be in the back of the net. It just, I don't know, it just kills something a little bit. But yeah, it could have been so different. I really think the game needed that that to be a goal it was it was actually quite a boring game I think it's fair to say particularly that first half was really like quite turgid to watch at times I think it was quite telling that the Mexican wave was going around within half an hour like fans had to make their own fun a little bit it wasn't like last season a particularly fun

final to watch in part that's because obviously Man United couldn't find the back of the net or even really carve out that many clear-cut chances you know Chelsea were efficient to a certain extent in in that respect but yeah I just found it quite difficult to watch. And it wasn't until Kerr's goal that we really saw it come to life a bit. Neither team wanted to lose a little bit too much in that first half for me. And yeah, I just thought it was a little bit flat. Yeah, I agree with you.

It certainly wasn't a thriller. And Claire, we're kind of used to saying this at the moment about Chelsea they didn't really look like the kind of team that we've seen in the past week but they almost look overawed by the situation which was really bizarre bearing in mind it's not as if they've not been there before yeah and you know what I think what Chelsea struggled with was breaking United's block at first and you know I've actually been in a game before at Wembley where

you just can't get close and as soon as that kind of gets in your head your mentality changes a little bit you start feeling lethargic, you start feeling slow and I think what it was they just kind of lacked players within the spaces in between the lines to connect with Sam Kerr on the top.

And I think Chelsea's wingers were too often receiving under too much pressure. And so I think obviously then allowed El-Atoun to pick the ball up in those spaces. But I think generally the mindset in that first half, given the early goal slash no goal from United, it really kind of affected the mentality. And there's nothing worse than looking up at Wembley. You see the, you know, the packed stadium and the pitch just feels massive. I've been there.

I remember actually for West Ham, and not particularly for Chelsea, but for West Ham in the final when we played Man City, in the second half of that game, I remember just feeling like the pitch was triple the size than it was. And I think that's because we couldn't get close to the opposition. So I think that's probably similar to how the Chelsea players felt. Yeah, all I thought was interesting was Emma said afterwards,

Emma Hayes said afterwards that people forget that Chelsea play more games in a season than any other team in the league because they always go further than any other in in all competitions so obviously just marginally ahead of Arsenal this year in getting to the FA Cup final but um I think that's a big a big part of it and she said you can't forget that they won the last two games really convincingly and not every game is going to be the perfect game um she said that the general manager Paul Green said that it was the worst half of FA Cup football they'd ever played in the first half. But she was like really, I thought really interesting in talking about the quality of a win,

because she said that like sometimes we spend too much time sneering or looking down at winning football matches the way we do and that there's a sense that everything has to be perfect, but that it's, you know, any winning manager will tell you that it's having that mixture of performances over the course of the season that matters and what she spent her time doing is working on them as as being a team in transition and trying to still win and trying to maintain winning despite being in transition with you know so many players out injured players room to be leaving all that kind of stuff that's what sort of makes it interesting I guess it's like not

necessarily the stuff that's going on on the pitch it's stuff that's going on off the pitch to almost keep them performing at just this insane level despite um and winning and maintaining that mentality despite all of these things going on around them. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I do feel as if we've watched this Chelsea side for so long that we expect the kind of swashbuckling victories every single time. But you can't put in those kind of performances all the time. I feel as if United needed a swashbuckling performance though Jamie and it was maybe a bit of a missed opportunity particularly not taking hold when they were

fully in control in the first half and scoring in the first 45. Yeah I think if you looked at the game beforehand this is probably United's best opportunity that they've had to beat Chelsea and then it just so happened to coincide with it being the final as well um sort of to allude to what you're saying about Chelsea sort of playing a lot of games I think from the start of March until the final that was their 15th game and it was United's 10th over the same period so you know there was there was opportunity there to be fresher one thing that I would say obviously is Chelsea's squad depth you can't really ignore that because the game changed massively when Emma went to the bench and then Penelah Harder came on Sophie and goal and gave a bit of extra calmness in midfield and with the greatest respect to the United squad you know Rachel

Williams has been absolutely incredible for what she's done this season she's a cult hero she will be forever remembered in in a really fun way but she's not Penelah Harder and there's very very few players in the world that could have that kind of impact on a match so to have you know your strongest 11 and then still bring someone like her on it kind of shows the levels and and that's where united don't have it at the minute i think if you were to compare the starting 11s on the day i would say it was pretty even you know united have got arieps obviously a world class goalkeeper alessia rusev's had another good season, L2,

her goal numbers are down but her sort of creativity and assist are really high and there's been so many good players especially in the back four as well

that have had outstanding seasons. But then as soon as you get beyond the starting 11 there's still issues and I think Mark's asked a lot

about recruitment and depth and that's something that they really want to push hard especially now with Champions League on the horizon as well. Next season that's going to be even harder to sort of balance and control yeah it's um yeah I think there's there's some frustration for sure and

if you don't have Pernilla harder or a Pernilla harder on your bench then you are a poorer side because Susie she really made the difference. I think a lot of us were quite surprised that Emma Hayes didn't make any half-time changes. But when she did bring on Pernilla Harder, she immediately lifted the game, didn't she? Yeah, I was surprised that she didn't make any half-time changes. But I was also kind of glad because when she's done that,

it's almost been a little bit panicked. I thought that in the Conte Cup final when she made changes just before the break and in another big game that I can't remember I think it's maybe against City where yeah like a couple of big changes at half time seeming slightly panicked and it not playing out and not looking necessarily to end up tactically being the smartest move so I was I was kind of glad they they stuck to plan and I mean like I put it harder when she comes back she gets two goals and assists in her first game or second game if you count the like 15 minutes she played against Barcelona gets two goals and assists in the next game that she starts um comes off after 70 minutes or so and

then is on the bench for cup final i mean what's impressive is like how quickly she's slotted straight back into scoring and form despite the fact she's not played this year until this point that i just find like quite staggering um the idea that she might possibly leave this summer I just you know I would be doing everything in my power to try and keep her I think Jay made a good point about the benches being a big big difference between the two teams and I think a part of it is down to the fact that Mark Skinner hasn't rotated a huge amount this season. He's very much stuck with the same starting 11, occasional sort of almost forced changes rather than like through choice.

Whereas when we spoke to Emma, head of the final, she was talking about never thinking about it as a set of starting players of always on the training pitch, like constantly like rotating the partnerships, the relationships and having those ready. So when you have, it doesn't have to be a Peniela Hard to come on, it can be a Sophie Ingle,

it can be anyone on that bench. It's a very, very natural thing to happen. Whereas I don't think United's changes ever really feel like that. It always feels a little bit like you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole a little bit that hasn't necessarily got the match experience of those relationships in the same way that Chelsea have.

Mark Skinner's lack of substitutions, Jamie, have been a real topic of controversy this season. Natalie's tweeted in, why when Wilder is player of the match in the game before, do we not see her in the final? I think she was the one player in United's bench that sort of created a spark who could unlock defences. She obviously did play really well against Tottenham,

but they felt like Susie Canabaluzzi, that was almost a forced change because Katie Dillon was suspended. When Alatun went off, maybe she could have gone into that number 10 role and to pull strings I know one of the reasons that he wasn't so keen on starting early in the season is because he didn't want to have a he didn't he didn't see her as like a part of a double pivot in the defensive side of the ball but actually against Spurs she was really good in that role so he didn't make loads of sense to not see her at all um I know she's a really popular fan.

She has scored a lot of goals in cup matches this season as well, when she's come in, when she's had opportunities. She scored, obviously, an amazing free kick in an earlier round. She was the one that, yeah, you maybe would have thought deserved some minutes at least. But, like, the United, it's like a project almost, I think. I mean, one of the messages that you could get from Mark is that this isn't done it's like still the start he's I think he sees himself as like a

long-term builder and he's he's been in the job for less than two years and they've had 10 new players in this season and I suppose things just take time eventually to to figure people out and he's very meticulous in his his sort of ways of doing things so if it takes somebody a long time to get into the team that's he sees that as like a almost like a bedding in period and that they need to sort of understand the philosophies and it's very prominent with the younger players but even with more established pros like Asa to Ankara hasn't really played this season and obviously she's had a really strong solid centre-back partnership in front of her. But, you know, she was the one that missed out

in the squad altogether on the weekend as well. And there's a lot of what he sees as learning the philosophies before you sort of get the chance and run with it. Yeah, one player that did hit the ground running, although actually it took her a few games to score when she joined Chelsea, didn't she? But I mean, now she's just absolutely on fire, Raph, is Sam Kerr.

And she's now scored 10 goals in seven cup finals as well for Chelsea, which is pretty impressive. Is she the biggest big game player that there is? Yeah, hands down. I think at the moment there's no doubt about that. I think what I love about Sam Kerr is there's not an arrogance about her, but it's like she knows she's going to score. She knows she has the ability. She knows she's not faked in these big games.

And I read something yesterday about her actually planning to do the backflip. And even that mentality, once you kind of agree you're going to celebrate the goal that you're going to score, and that is then discussed amongst the team, that actually, you know, is infectious. And I think, I actually remember playing against her years and years ago for England. We had a friendly against Australia and I was left back at the time and this young girl came on and I remember thinking, oh God, she is just, I can't, I don't know what she's doing. She's not kind of you know conventional in

the way that she plays obviously she she has become obviously a lot more tactfully astute now but i remember even then thinking god this is a really you know potentially amazing um raw talent and you can just see that the players around her they don't even have to look up and you've seen good girl right and when she crosses the ball she doesn't look up she just knows where sam carl's going to be and i think you know the way that she interacts with the players and just it's fantastic for chelsea have someone so reliable and then surrounding her having that that high level of players obviously i think girl right and as as have created quite a partnership with her um in supply and an awful lot of assists in order to

elevate her game but yeah I think in general she is a fantastic player and hope she stays at Chelsea for a long long time yeah she's pretty incredible isn't she um listen I don't think this is going to take very long Jamie and I'm just gonna you know caveat this with sorry but let's discuss the penalty in inverted commas to be fair at first, and it was pretty much right in front of me, at first glance, I did think it was a penalty and the contact was made inside the box. However, the referee, Emily Heaslip, was correct. I'm going to go to Jamie first because I know what Susie and Raph's opinions are what did you make of it and what did you make of Mark Skinner's comments about it afterwards I mean in real time it looked a penalty and then in the slow down version it kind of still looked like a penalty there was like an initial touch outside but then it sort of carried on a bit inside and I don't know it's like maybe with the VAR it's too close to overturn it even though it could have gone either way in the first place.

Obviously I'm going to say I thought it was a penalty, but the way that Nikita Paras sort of, it looked like she'd turned away from goal, lost the chance and then suddenly she accelerated the other way. Completely did to Ziniv Charles for pace in that moment. Mark was absolutely devastated. I didn't speak to him in the press conference but I caught him in the mix zone downstairs afterwards and he was still talking

about it then so he was absolutely adamant that it should have been a penalty and I think yeah he could have gone either way and I think either decision would have been okay but obviously whatever side of the fence you're on you're going to be disappointed or elated with how it went. But let's go to our adjudicator, I would say, a neutral for a change, because we're not talking Arsenal, in Susie Rack. I think it shows that when a manager, and when I say manager, I mean Emma Hayes, doesn't get asked about an incident like that in a press conference, the overwhelming consensus is that it wasn't a controversy I saw in real time I thought oh my instant was oh was that inside and then the replay showed it and

like it starts outside and she almost falls into the box for me I mean it sort of does carry on a little bit but I think it'd be really really harsh to give it yeah because it does begin outside the box but i think what was weird i think what was weird is that they had var for the first time in a women's fa cup final and didn't use it you know it might you know at least go to the screen and let people know that it's been reviewed um or it's being reviewed when you've got that opportunity i know that the pgmo are trying to be much more transparent and I think that's absolutely brilliant, the work that we're seeing them do at the moment.

But in that instance, from friends of mine who watched on television and for all of us that were in the stadium, we didn't seem to know necessarily what was going on and that was perhaps the problem because if it had come up and said something then you know there wouldn't be a in inverted commas controversy yeah i mean sat in the press box we had the advantage of the replays on the little screens watching it you know three or four times so you know you could sort of see that there wasn't much to it there i also think that nikita paris's reputation doesn't necessarily help her in this scenario either like she goes down very easily and I do think she was led into and you know it could legitimately

argue that she was fouled but I don't think that her reputation helps her in those kind of scenarios and I think a different player may be a different outcome as well. Raph? Yeah, well, I don't think it was a penalty. I think I actually agree in terms of reputation. I think if it was potentially a different player, then it would have been a different outcome, but the trainer leg was outside the box and, you know, the rules are rules. I don't know why they didn't use VAR though. Yeah, right. Last one on this.

It was a world record attendance for a domestic women's game. 77,390. It had been a sellout. It's eight years the FA Cup's been held at Wembley now. And we're certainly a long way from those original crowds of 30,000 for that first game between Chelsea and Notts County. Pretty incredible. And the atmosphere at the beginning of the game,

I don't necessarily think the game lived up to the hype, but the atmosphere before the game, Susie, was pretty something. Oh, yeah, it was brilliant. And even going around the fan parks hours before kick-off, my husband's cousin was there with her two boys who were like 11 and 9, first time at Wembley and

were absolutely buzzing go like trying out every single like activity around the outside getting their photo with the World Cup trophy with Carly Telford behind them in the queue and getting a photo and all that kind of like it was the buzz was great very flat during the game though um and I think like I sort of think that's a little bit inevitable at this point in the development of the game because you know you've got this situation obviously there's a lot of talk beforehand about the small allocations for the uh for the club sides what 8 000 each i think it was and obviously the tickets go on sale pretty much as soon as the last finals finished because we're not used to selling out women's FA Cup finals so like that's almost like being a necessity and until we get to a point where you can sort of very very confidently hold

back a large number of tickets in the knowledge that whatever fan base makes it through to the final that they're going to sell out that allocation you can't really hold back a huge amount more but you're sort of almost unavoidably in this transition period where if you want to sell out the final you really have to sort of go for the neutral as well we're not quite at a point at which you're going to sell out 90,000 to two fan bases yeah no I think you make a really good point and actually I'm just going to bow to to Raf's commercial knowledge actually on this because the the tickets were 15 pounds for adults five pounds for for kids there were about 10 000 no shows because it was a sellout um what

did you make of it could they have done it better or as as suzy says is this you know we're still in that transitional period yeah i think suzy answered that really well there i think increasing the the amount of allocation for each team, yes, it is a risk, but it's a risk that we need to start taking. We need to increase the value of the tickets, increase the value of the experience of going to Wembley, and then reduce that amount of no-shows. But I think commercially, I would have raised the prices a little bit, to be honest. I would have gone £20 for an adult just to kind of get above that that that amount just to make it more like you're missing out if you don't because you have paid that price and I think it's always a discussion isn't it about obviously giving away free tickets I definitely

am glad they've moved away from that but yeah I still would increase the price level because then you're kind of creating a barrier to entry almost and in regards to missing out on the game as I understand it it's the first time that a Women's FA Cup final has turned a profit. So that is, you know, brilliant news in itself. Right, that's it for part one. In part two, we'll look ahead to a huge weekend in the WSL. Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack,

fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today, starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

So we have a massive weekend coming up in the Women's Super League. There are a couple of midweek fixtures for Chelsea at West Ham and Arsenal at Everton. Before we head into the penultimate round of fixtures with a London derby, a Manchester derby and a relegation battle. Susie, before we get on to the games themselves, Leovolti signed a new contract to Arsenal last week. There had been lots of speculation that the Switzerland captain might be moving on. How important is it that your club have been able to tie her down? Oh, so important. She's such an influential player.

And I like whenever she's out, you notice the hole she leaves. I think it was telling that in the season where they had a whole swathe of injuries and seemed to cope, you know, Kim Little out, Mirdam are Mora out for a bit you know pre-ACLs and then Lia Valti goes out that was the difference for me of their season sort of starting to fall apart that where they had that big collapse around that Barcelona game at the Emirates and really struggled over the Christmas period for me the turning point was the moment Leah Valti went out she's like so hugely important and I think what's quite exciting and I think that is keeping a lot of players at Arsenal interested in staying is the manner of their fight towards the end of this season because

you know if you told me that so many key influential players were going to be ruled out for injury and that they would still like be a sniff away from a champions league final and would still be fighting for champions league football and you know on paper in with a shot at a title like i just i wouldn't have believed you with the with the players that we had available i didn't think they necessarily had the fight in them to be able to sustain the fight and the challenge for that long. And then you think about the fact that you've got all those players coming back into that environment, adding their experience,

their talent back in, and then the sort of new experience and belief of the existing group, the almost fringe players to a certain extent being as experienced and built up mentally as the ones who will be coming back in. I think that's actually a really exciting group to be a part of and I think they sort of want to stay a part of it. Champions League football is going to be so key to that but like her signature is the difference between Arsenal winning things and losing things for me. Yeah, a key game coming up in terms of their Champions League qualification.

Claire, two of your former clubs meet midweek. Chelsea play West Ham on Wednesday before they then host Arsenal. I mean, we were talking about Paul Koncheski and West Ham in depth last week. They're on a pretty dreadful run. If you're Chelsea, do you rotate in this circumstance to then put a strong showing out against Arsenal, having played in the FA Cup final, or are West Ham more of a threat than we're giving them credit for?

I think Emma will rotate just because of the amount of games and that first-half performance. Very clearly, the players look tired. But I think West Ham, yes, their form hasn't been great. There seems to be a bit of uncertainty behind the scenes, but they are still dangerous. You know, West Ham, Chelsea, they've kind of got a bit of history between now

and I don't know whether it's for me personally, but I always found, you know, that West Ham will always try and up their game a little bit against the teams higher up in the league. So I think, yes, they're not in the best place, but they still have personality in West Ham. And so I wouldn't take this game lightly. Sorry, if I was Chelsea, I wouldn't take this game lightly at all. And I think Emma Hayes will still be putting out a strong team.

Yes, they will be rotated, but West Ham you know need the points as well so it's kind of a change in mindset for them almost you know I don't want to be half but like could it get any worse they know that they can do better so that's encouraging for West Ham so yeah it's going to be a feisty one for sure yeah I'll tell you what else is uh going to be pretty feisty in Manchester Derby Jamie this is quite a mouth-watering game bearing in mind what happened to Manchester City last week in their defeat to Liverpool. What I find quite interesting is the scheduling in terms of the London Derby is at 12.30 and I think the Manchester Derby is at 6.45 is that right? So they could be going into it, you know,

pressure on one side or the other depending on what happens. Could it make things tough from both perspectives if Chelsea-Arsenal was a draw or is that the best result for you? I mean, Chelsea dropping points is the best result for United come what may, you know. I'll be able to turn into a big West Ham fan for Wednesday and then I'll switch allegiance to Arsenal for the wish end but I think

United came into the season with top three as like the overarching target so it's almost like the goalposts have changed in the last few months because they've been maybe further ahead than people expected because they got to the cup final top three as a minimum was still like the expectation.

If they'd have finished fourth again, I think probably questions would have been asked and it'd be like, well, why can't they get over this hurdle? I think with the City result against Liverpool, it's not mathematically guaranteed, but it's almost certain because of the points difference. It's six points, but United's goal difference is 17 better, so unless something crazy happens in the last two weeks they should finish third against over City and obviously just

one more point obviously the remaining games will do it just for the third place obviously there's an opportunity to finish higher I don't know how much comes into it the fact that United have never beaten City in the league before they have done in the cup a couple of times um they were obviously massively gutted to not win at the Etihad in December because they were winning and they were on top and then you know there was an equalizer and they couldn't quite get it done in that sense so I think it'd be interesting to see how United bounce back from the disappointment I think like I said before that it was almost more difficult to swallow that it was so close and if that's extremely deflating how are they going to bounce back but i think they have developed a stronger resilience this season so hopefully you know they will turn up and and

sort of reset and refresh and the fact that it's been a week rather than a few days might help them as well um in that sense but as long as they can get over the line and get themselves back up I think third place is the minimum and it would be nice to win a title but I still see Chelsea winning it and if United can hit third place as a minimum then that's still a success Yeah it really is

I was talking to Rhian Skinner last night Susie and she said it takes a minimum of two weeks to get over losing a final and actually it could affect Manchester United quite badly. Obviously, massive game against City. They are at home, but dropping points could potentially hand Chelsea the league with a game to go. I mean, it is crap, isn't it, that the FA Cup is being played before the end of the season?

Like, there's no two ways about it mark skinner was asked about it in the press conference after the final and he said you know you you've got to play the hand you dealt blah blah like diplomatic answer but it is strange right like why was that the case i don't know i feel like i should have asked that question and i've not um i'm guessing it's a scheduling thing I'm guessing that there's some kind of reason for it not being. But whether it be the tightness to the World Cup, whether there'll be men's games again in the way, I don't know. But it is weird and not ideal for the teams that are competing in it

because it's usually your last. I almost feel sorry for Chelsea as well. You don't get to celebrate with the same abandon that you do when it's the last game of the season. And yeah, that's hard too. I suppose it would mean that the... So it's all very concertinaed up, isn't it, at the end of the season. So they moved the end of the WSL season to the 27th,

which is the same day as the Championship playoff final, which is very upsetting for me as long as Luton Town get there, keep everything crossed. And I think the men's FA Cup finals on the 3rd of June. Is that the latest finished we've had in ages? So maybe, you know, because then, of course, you know, Wembley shuts down after that for the summer. I think Harry Styles is there so no no football and then the 3rd of June is Champions League final as well yes so much clashing it's it's frustrating it's very frustrating that's the sellout by the way we haven't even spoken about that but um it's not just the WSL title that could be wrapped up this weekend, Raph. Relegation as well. If Leicester were to beat West Ham and Spurs beat Reading,

that would basically confirm Reading as heading down to the Championship. Tottenham have moved the game to Saturday to play it as a doubleheader at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. I mean, I'm not quite sure what you think about that. You're shaking your head already. Could this backfire? Yeah, I'm not a big fan about making things a big deal. think about that you're shaking your head already could could this back could this backfire yeah i'm not a big fan about making things a big deal when you change something that's so important obviously

there's you know these games reading versus tottenham you know reading desperately need a win tottenham desperately need a win you're kind of adding pressure of an occasion with a team that is obviously i know they have some you know some really talented players within there in the Tottenham team but together they're quite inexperienced and so walking out onto a pitch in a different environment you know I wouldn't have done that I think you need a bit of consistency when you're coming into the latter stages look I think hopefully there'll be a big crowd for them but I remember actually Chelsea, I think the first time we played at Sandford Bridge, we played Wolfsburg in the Champions League. And we were just like so far out of our comfort zone because we'd never played there before.

And it kind of really added to the fact that we got absolutely smashed. So hopefully that won't happen to Tottenham. But yeah, I wouldn't have changed that. I think you need consistency in times like this. And yeah, really kind of praying for Reading. I'd hate to see them go down, but it doesn't look good. I've also not seen a doubleheader in football work effectively in England. We've seen it work in rugby, cricket, but I've never seen it work well in football.

It's always the poorer relation that gets a little bit of an overspill and it's like oh everyone is just here waiting with their pint ahead of the big show starting kind of thing I just like that I find really um when it's such a key game to not have your fan base necessarily as engaged as you would want them to be in a game like that that feels to me a mistake like I don't necessarily mind them playing the in a game like that that feels to me a mistake like I don't necessarily mind them playing in the big stadium but like I don't feel they they play there enough for it to be natural enough in the same way you know you now don't mind Arsenal playing Chelsea at the Emirates because they're so used to it that it's become a home to a certain extent

but the Spurs stadium isn't a home for Tottenham yet it's still quite alien there's a lot of players in that squad who haven't played there or have only played there maybe once and it just yeah it feels a little bit of a strange decision to have like this kind of half engaged fan base for such a key game in a stadium that they're not that used to playing in. It sort of speaks to the, I would say, the attitude of Tottenham towards the women's team in that there is a loose interest, a desire to have the showpiece, an eye on the good things being done

and thinking, oh yeah, we could get in on that piece of the pie, but without the understanding and the valuing and the support and structure behind the team that gets you there in the first place I'd say maybe yeah like almost just going right we'll pick that one oh it just happens to be a really crucial um you know six pointer if you like. It's going to be a huge game, isn't it? It's a big weekend. We knew that the penultimate weekend of the WSL would be a pivotal one,

and it certainly is proving that. Listen, the double debuts went very well. Jamie, it's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, thank you for having me. Anything that I can give to you on United is always welcome, so thank you very much. We will definitely have you on again. Raf, it's just been a pleasure to see on the United is always welcome. So thank you very much. We will definitely have you on again. Raph, it's just been a pleasure to see you, as it always is.

Have a good day at work. Come back with us soon. I will do. Thank you for having me both. Really good to see you all. Ceezy Rack. Well, you know I always say always a pleasure, because it is always a pleasure.

I won't see you for the rest of the week, but wish Luton luck, please, for a change. Always praying for Luton. Always praying for Luton. Always praying for Luton. I feel like I need a shirt. I'm an honorary fan in like tribute to keeping you happy on podcast days. Listen, by the time some people listen to this podcast, they will know Luton's fate. So this all might go horribly wrong, but I'm being very, very positive.

Right. We'll be back next week to round up everything that's happened in the WSL. We could have a champion, we could have lost a club, or it could all be going down to the last day of the season like the SWPL. Just a reminder for you, you can now email us on womensfootballweekly at theguardian.com and keep those questions coming in. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Jolene Gofan and Jesse Parker-Humphreys.

Music composition was by Laura Iredale. Our executive producer is Sal Ahmad. This is The Guardian. assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen.