The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly - Sam Kerr’s ACL agony and January transfers – Women’s Football Weekly podcast

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

Faye Carruthers has Suzanne Wrack, Chris Paouros and Kelly Simmons alongside her to reflect on the biggest news over the winter break

This is The Guardian. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. It's the season for new styles, and you love to shop for jackets and boots. So when you do, always make sure you get cash back from Rakuten. And it's not just clothing and shoes. You can get cash back from over 750 stores on electronics, holiday travel, home decor, and more. It's super easy. And before you buy anything, always go to Rakuten first.

Join free at Rakuten.ca. Start shopping and get your cash back sent to you by check or PayPal. Get the Rakuten app or join at rakuten.ca. R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. We've missed you. Have you missed us? I hope so. Too late to say Happy New Year? Maybe.

Certainly not a great start to 2024 if you're a Chelsea fan, though, with that awful news that Sam Kerr has suffered an ACL injury and will be out for the rest of the season and miss the Olympics. We'll talk transfers with the window opening, look ahead to the fourth round of the FA Cup and this first pod of the year, we'll do a deep dive on the state of the women's game and what the window opening. Look ahead to the fourth round of the FA Cup and this first pod of the year,

we'll do a deep dive on the state of the women's game and what the future holds. We'll also round up all the rest of the news from the past few weeks. Plus, we'll take your questions and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Susie Rack, we are so happy to have you back. I felt as if my, I'm looking down at my arms,

right arm had been taken off when you were ill at the end of the year. How are you feeling? Weirdly, like 110% because I've been diagnosed with asthma. So I've had undiagnosed asthma for 37 years. So now I'm like breathing like superhuman levels. And yeah, so feeling really good which is a weird weird feeling suddenly I've realized my whole life I've not been breathing properly which is quite a weird feeling oh my god that is weird I have asthma too join the asthma club high

five um oh three Chris Poweros as well how are you I was going to ask you about Tottenham, but let's talk asthma. I'm very well, having just had my asthma pump. Another treat for this morning. Wonderful. You're doing some decent business, aren't you, at the moment? I'll tell you what, and happening early as well, which is great. But I think from the women's team perspective like two really exciting signings that other teams wanted by all accounts so and lots of rumours for the men's team too so yeah bring it on. Absolutely love it. Kelly Simmons delighted to have you with us you made a guest appearance at the start of last season but a full cap today. It's great to be here thanks for having me. Already gone out and got her coffee spoke spoke on the WhatsApp group and said, oh, it's really, really brisk out there.

Really cold. We were thinking she was with the dog walking along the seafront. No, she's just gone down to the kitchen and padded in bare feet and regretted it. That was cold enough. Right. First part of 2024, very excited about this. Let's round up some of the main talking points and noteworthy news while we've been off on our very own winter break. Thank you for that, football. Some seismic news, though, reaching us on Sunday evening. Chelsea star striker Sam Kerr is going to miss the rest of the season

after picking up an ACL injury during the club's warm weather training cap in Morocco. This is what a statement from the club's warm weather training cap in Morocco. This is what a statement from the club said. Sam will be assessed by a specialist in the coming days and then begin her rehabilitation with the club's medical team. Everyone at Chelsea would like to wish Sam the very best for her recovery. She's 30 years old now and she scored 99 goals in 128 matches since she signed for Chelsea back in 2019. She's been wearing the armband for much of this season,

while Millie Bright has been out. I mean, it's just absolutely heartbreaking news for her, Susie. A big blow personally after her injury disrupted her home World Cup as well, but also a huge blow for Emma Hayes and her side. Oh, massive. I mean, the sad, what's like really awful is that could, well, that is back in December, the last time that we're going to see Sam Kerr play under Emma Hayes at Chelsea,

which is really disappointing because they're such a prolific duo. I mean, I think since Sam Kerr's arrival, they've won nine trophies and that's not to say that they wouldn't have won those anyway. Emma Hayes is a genius, but she's been such a big part of those those wins and it had so much personality as well as being just an absolutely phenomenal player and a delight to watch and you know I think there's like a little bit of talk that oh maybe the contract's up soon maybe this will be her last season as well you know her partner Christy Mewis has moved to west ham could that be a short-term deal would they look to go somewhere else potentially at the end of the season that's going to be in the air now because she's going to

be midway through a recovery period whether we see her again in a chelsea shirt i mean on 99 goals it's a pretty brutal way to potentially bow out but it's just gutting isn't it like another acl injury um it grabs the headlines because it's sam gutting isn't it like another acl injury um it grabs the headlines because it's sam kerr but we're getting them all the time every level of the game and it's just really really gutting to see players have to go through what we all know is such a like emotionally and mentally draining and traumatic experience being out of the game for so long. Yeah, three to six times more likely female footballers than men to suffer an ACL injury. It's something we've talked about extensively on this pod.

And let's look at the title race and what it does going forward for the Barclays WSL. Has it blown the race wide open? The race was probably quite open anyway but I think this definitely sort of adds a bit of extra spice doesn't it really I think there's something about it being Emma Hayes last season in the WSL that just means there's some extra sauce for I'm not sure where these cooking metaphors have come from but bear with me there's some extra sauce for for Emma Hayes as well right and for Chelsea so I just think it's going to give other teams a little bit of a boost sadly to think okay

well when we're playing Chelsea we're not necessarily going to have to face um Sam Kerr although you know we know she's been out a bit already this season and you know and and they've had a bit of an up and down start so I I think it's definitely going to be interesting. It looks like an interesting title race anyway. Yeah, I mean, the title race already has been, you know, fascinating, hasn't it? But if we're talking about any manager, and Susie's articulated it brilliantly in terms of Emma Hayes' genius, but if any manager knows how to galvanise a team through this kind of setback, if you like, Kelly Kelly it's Emma Hayes

oh absolutely I mean a track record speaks for itself doesn't it I think it has opened the title race a little bit more because the last couple of seasons in the title running Sam Kerr doesn't just score goals she scores the really important ones when they're under pressure and the number of times I've watched Sam dig them out, they might have gone 1-0 down or they're struggling. It's heading towards a draw and she gets the late and important goals. So it's not just her goals, it's those big goals in those important games under pressure where she really, really performs.

So I think it's a huge loss for the WSL and for Chelsea. I hope that we see her in the WSL again you know terrible news for her thoughts with her absolutely of course this impacts her ability to to be at the Olympics too so you know absolutely devastating for her but I think it's absolutely wide open that title race but yeah I mean if you sort of look at emma's experience you know to get the team through and to adapt then there's nobody better and i'm sure she wants to go out to the usa with that trophy in her bag oh my god she'd absolutely love to wouldn't she um it's obviously not just chelsea affected australia without their captain as you say record goal scorer as well for the olympics

if they qualify. Here's what coach Tony Gustafsson had to say. Considering how hard Sam has worked over the past six months to return to play, this news is a devastating blow for everyone. Sam's guidance and influence on the team is significant. This will be an incredible loss for the national team. Let's talk more widely about ACLs. I'm very acutely aware this is something that comes up so often now that we have to do another specialized pod on it Susie but where are we at in terms of

the research and and everything else that we've discussed at length so many times I mean there's plenty of research being done and being started but it's you know it's behind where we are and where we should be obviously but like that's I mean most issues around women's health you could probably say the same for which is you know pretty telling so you know I know the ECA have been doing a lot of research into boots and you know set up a you know women's health working group I know the UEFA women's health team as well so there's like a lot of things sort of starting to be done and a lot of research that is being done i went down to roehampton university a few years back with claire rafferty uh where um they're doing quite a lot of

biomechanics uh work on acl injuries and the impact of you know good strength and conditioning and things like that and it was like super interesting so like this research exists it is out there there is stuff being done but promise is such a multifaceted injury that there's not really anything that's like bringing all of those things together and working out exactly why a women are affected i think there's like say multifaceted i think there's a whole number of reasons and then b what is it about the women's game is making it more prevalent as well because I think that's part of it too you know like the pitch conditions but also the changes between pitch conditions you know because when we look at Arsenal in the last season and a half or whatever

it's been where they've had you know sort of four or five ACL injuries so you know a lot of those were done on the Emirates Stadium pitch and obviously that's a perfect pitch right like that's a beautiful conditioned looked after field but at the same time you've got them switching from you know not so good pitches to good pitches when they play away at certain teams or you know Warren Wood is actually very good but yeah when they play away at certain teams or even you know training Warren Wood is actually very good. But yeah, when they play away at certain teams or even, you know, training grounds, changing like types of surfaces, all of those things, I don't think we've explored enough.

I think there's, you know, so many areas that could be looked at. I mean, I'm actually tomorrow speaking to someone who worked on a study in Australia with hockey players like four or five years ago. And they did a three-year study into ACL injuries in hockey players but working with one team it's a biomechanical like study and within a two-year period they reduced the number of ACL injuries by 100% so I'm really excited to talk to this woman she now works somewhere very very like high up in

men's sport in the US and really can't wait to speak to her about whether that is like the definitive answer or not I know it won't be because like I say there's so many so many reasons but I'm just so interested to know about that and whether that's transferable across. Obviously, hockey movements are very, very different to football movements. But if anything, they put more strain on the knees because you're doing much sharper and faster turns and things like that on hard surfaces and stuff.

So I think there's a lot of stuff out there. It just needs some of these sort of new groups to bring a lot of the information together and then get it filtered through clubs. And I think there needs to be a lot more information sharing as well between clubs. You know, it'd be great to see, you know, Arsenal obviously done a brilliant

F. Mead for Vierda Mead documentary. It'd be great to like hear a little bit more because I imagine this is happening about knowledge sharing between clubs and how that's working. And yeah, I think there needs to be a little bit of a sort of very open publicly acknowledged campaign and investigation into it where people are able to understand exactly what's

going on. Everyone's very protective for every club is very protective of its data though Kelly aren't they could you see that happening? Yeah I can I think first of all in the Karen Carney report I know DCMS and Karen Carney are really keen that the best practice and research and innovation required in women's football is, you know, all of women's sport benefits from it. I'd like to see DCMS, UK Sport and the governing bodies step up and fund together some research and innovation arm for women's sport. It's massively behind compared to research in men's sport women's sport it's you know massively behind compared to research in men's sport as Susie's mentioned and I think there's lots of pockets of good practice going on we were certainly in that when I was at the WSL we were doing an injury audit to try and understand trends and injuries and try and identify those you know number of

factors that could be driving this we were sharing best practice with clubs to around prevention I think Chelsea probably got the best record in this space of the top teams I think I think this is one of the very very few ACLs in that so there's definitely some good practice and some good prevention work going on but that needs to be right across the board and I think you know there's some good work going on at FIFA there's some good work across the board and i think you know there's some good work going on fifa there's some good work at uefa but i think we need to coordinate it and make sure it's applied across women's sports i'd like to see more in this space and maybe that's something that can come out of the karen carney review because i know they are keen to make sure that women's sport

benefits not just women's football so i think there's a big opportunity there. I think from a human perspective I really feel for this cohort of players because I think they've just been caught in a moment as I mean you look at the as Susie said it's definitely multi-layered there's a number of factors at play um that are around sort of you know there are some stuff around sort of physiology and boots and all of those other things but i also think you've got a cohort of players right now who have gone from in a relatively short period of time playing loads more games playing at higher tempos having more demands on them etc etc and as we're learning more you know obviously hopefully in generations to come you will have ACLs in the women's game like you do in the men's game but not at such a rate and I think but for this for

this set of players you know like from on that human level I really sort of really feel for them actually because they're just caught in a moment. So the big question is with the transfer window open Susie Rack are Chelsea going to dip into it to cover her? Potentially but they've also I think prepared for the eventual loss of Sam Kerr in the transfer window at some point as well with the bringing in of like Mia Fishel

you know they've got Aggie Beaver-Jones back into the side having been on loan they've got Katarina Macario so the talent the young talent is there to step up the interesting thing will be whether they feel like they need a more experienced head in that sort of attacking line before they may be planned to sort of bring them into the starting 11, leading the line from the off.

Yeah, you're right, actually. So that's Chelsea. Let's take a look at some of the other deals so far. And those in the rumour mill as well with the January transfer window in full swing. One of the big talking points which is going to dominate this month is the future of sports personality of the year. Round of applause, Mary Earps, an all round goalkeeping queen. Of course, the Manchester United shotstop has been at the centre of speculation around her future, with her contract due to expire in June. A number of big clubs, including Arsenal, PSG and Lyon, reportedly interested.

What do we know, Susie? Oh God, the January transfer window. What do we know? We know nothing. We always know nothing. You know, there was obviously interest from Arsenal in the summer for Mary Earps. And you can, you know you know sort of seen this season that their goalkeeping need is strong um although that said it's been reported various

places that that interest has cooled which is what I understand to be the case as well I mean there's you know so many places she could go I think it's interesting that the sort of briefings going out that are saying that she maybe might stay at United and is open to that um because maybe the options and the the lack of the Arsenal option necessarily being on the table you know might make a move less attractive than it was if she can get a big big deal then, then it may be a different desire. I also think that the ownership change at Man United could potentially change things. It could open up a little bit more of a will to keep. Hopefully there'll be some kind of proper assessment of the state of the women's team and it's set up and the players all that kind of stuff that gives

players confidence enough to be able to stay at the side and want to stay at the side so yeah i mean there's there's options i mean there's been talk that you know sort of various spanish clubs and and french clubs are interested but it's going to be the most interesting one of January for me, whether she does end up somewhere or not. But yeah, it doesn't look as certain necessarily as it did in the summer. No, speaking of goalkeepers, what about Ellie Roebuck, Chris? It's been a really tough season for her. She's fallen down the pecking order for club and for country

and her contract's up in June. She's surely got to look for a move where she's guaranteed some game time. I mean, you'd think so, because, you know, at one point she was the next real prospect. And as you say, falling down the pecking order like that, you sort of worry about, you know, what that's going to mean for her sort of overall and her international prospects and all the rest of it. Be interested to see where she ends up and whether it is a january transfer or you let the clock run out and go wherever you like in the summer i think january is always interesting because particularly in the women's game you know you know it's like it's a short period of time and actually you're like okay

is it worth as well just the thinking that as suzy was talking about about mary up i'm like is she going to hold out and see what happens you know it's a literally short period of time see what happens at Manchester United and then you know like you could kind of have a big hoopla in the in the summer and I wonder if the same goes for Ellie Roebuck but equally you might just go actually she just wants to play and you know she could definitely get into you know a lot of other you know many other WSL teams I heard that uh well I heard this in the summer that Man United were interested in her as a replacement for Mary Earps which I mean would would make a lot of sense right on the basis of the fact that she was then iced out of City a bit it'd be quite a controversial

move potentially it wasn't a strong enough rumor for me to necessarily do anything on it in writing but the rumor was there and around and I think it's still there a little bit so I think you know it could be a little bit on the basis of what happens to to Mary Earp as to what actually happens to Roebuck I think there could be a knock-on effect there but if she doesn't go to United I think there's plenty of clubs that would take her. There's no doubting that she has a superior amount of talent. That talent doesn't just vanish. But I think the confidence piece is a massive one. And hers must be pretty shot at the moment.

So if a club comes in for her and really wants her, right? Like really shows her some love, I think we'd start to see. And she plays regular minutes and there's a club that is patient with her as well and allows her to refine that form whatever the cost initially like results wise I think that could really really pay off like someone would get a really really young talented goalkeeper potentially coming back into their prime. I think there's going to be a lot of movement in the goalkeeper merry-go-round in January, potentially,

or none, which would also be interesting. Yeah, this is what happens in January. It could be this or it could not. It's like, it's a 50-50 chance. No, it's more than a 50-50 chance, obviously. And actually, I'd be really pleased for Ellie Roebuck because, you know, she was nailed on to be England's number one and then got that awful injury.

I mean, maybe she can look to what happened with Mary Earps, who thought that her England career was done and dusted and was in a really low place. And look what she's gone on to do. So, you know, she's still only 24. Fingers crossed she can get a decent move. West Ham, oh my goodness me, brought in some much needed reinforcements

in the shape of USA international midfielder Kirstie Mewis, Australian midfielder Katrina Gorey, and Spurs defender Shalina Zdorsky on loan for the remainder of the season. We have talked on this pod, Kelly, about how desperately Rhiann Skinner needed to bolster her squad. Shalina Zdorsky on loan for the remainder of the season. We have talked on this pod, Kelly, about how desperately Rhian Skinner needed to bolster her squad. And these feel like pretty shrewd, experienced signings.

Yeah, they are. I think it's really exciting. I'm really looking forward to seeing how West Ham line up and play and perform over the second half of the season. They're certainly down there in the mix, aren't they? It's bad news probably for Bristol City and Brighton that they've strengthened so much. but clearly they're not taking any risks around possible relegation and have decided to strengthen so yeah exciting signings and uh yeah an interesting one to watch I think to see how how they perform second half of the season yeah most definitely um Mewis of course the fiance of Chelsea's Sam Kerr as we mentioned earlieris, of course, the fiancé of Chelsea's Sam Kerr, as we mentioned earlier on,

which of course meant that football Twitter was alight with theories about what that means for her future with the Blues. Tottenham, as we've said, already been busy in the market, confirming the arrival of young Swedish attacking midfielder Matilda Wimberg from Hammarby and 22-year-old Australia international full-back Charlotte Grant from Visschow. a couple of potentially exciting incomings, both of them.

Vimberg named as the Swedish League's Breakthrough Player of the Year in 2022 and won Hammerby's Player of the Year award as well. And Charlotte Grant already has 21 Matildas caps to her name. We mentioned this right at the top very briefly, Chris, but it's good to see Tottenham not resting on their laurels and pushing on which you would expect under robert villaham absolutely and i do think that we've particularly got a sort of you know we're on a on a mission to make sure that we actually build the women's team that is fitting for the great name of tottenham hotspur i say that with a smile on my face looking right at suzy but she's pretending i'm not saying it

and i think that you know this i don't think this is the end of it we're linked with amanda Tottenham Hotspur. I say that with a smile on my face, looking right at Susie, but she's pretending I'm not saying it. And I think that, you know, I don't think this is the end of it. We're linked with Amanda Nilden as well from Juventus. And, you know, and again,

this is sort of just January. I think, you know, we're going to push on again in the summer. I don't think that we're going to be, we're happy to sort of be a mid-table team. And I think that's the plan is to try and shake up what's going on at the top of the wsl and i think robert's made a really good of great start and good intention for that and these signings just just kind of take us to a slightly different place because they're

young players and they're young players that other wsl teams wanted and actually there's obviously been you know a courting of them to say, actually we're building something here and it's really exciting, come and join us. So yeah, it is really exciting. Yeah, it is. Reports over the weekend as well that the club have turned down an approach

from NWSL expansion side Bay FC for goalkeeper Barbora Votikova. We'll keep an eye on that one as well. Aston Villa have made their first signing of the window. Switzerland defender Noelël Moritz making the switch from Arsenal. Carla Ward adding a hugely experienced player to her ranks.

Susie, she's had 113 international caps, scored twice in 92 Arsenal appearances. She joined from Wolfsburg back in 2020. Are you pleased? I think it's a great move by Villa because, I mean mean literally a couple of seasons ago I was watching Maritz for Arsenal and thought no not at this level she's not ready for the fight at the top of the women's super league and just didn't look technically good enough or

physically strong enough for the the battles that she'd be having. Last season, though, I thought she was absolutely phenomenal. For me, she was like one of the sort of unsung heroes of Arsenal's really, really resilient campaign as they suffered so many injuries, really, really stepped up to the plate and I thought was a bit of a highlight. So, you know, I'm sort of slightly sad to see her go from Arsenal. I mean, I think obviously Arsenal will plug that hole but it's a really shrewd signing she's hugely experienced um you know you're bringing in someone who plays regular WSL football into your side which you know Carla Ward has done and shown works a number of

times she's desperate for a decent run um in the team as well I mean that's not to say she played a lot for Arsenal but you know there were times where she was a little bit in the team as well. I mean, that's not to say she played a lot for Arsenal, but there were times where she was a little bit in and out or would be substituted a fair bit and things. So, yeah, I sort of feel like this is a really good step for her career-wise because it's just, she's going from being one of the weakest links in a very, very, very good team

to one of the strongest in a pretty good team. You know, I feel like, yeah, really, really shrewd acquisition. You know, there's talk of her potentially going in the summer. And I was actually quite keen for Arsenal to keep her because I think she's a very, very decent option. So, yeah, I think Carla Ward has waved a magic wand again. Just quickly, Susie, you've got a pretty decent option yourself in terms of Arsenal. Any other transfers we should maybe be keeping an eye out over the next couple of weeks? I'm kind of thinking Emily Fox, dot, dot, dot.

Yeah, I mean, the worst kept secret in football. I mean, it's funny when you see the little video clips from training and stuff currently be taken down after fans have spotted her in the background or there's a little audio clip of someone shouting Fox in the background that suddenly vanishes from sight as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah, brilliant signing. Obviously, hugely high profile one. Really nice to see Arsenal doing some business

because it's been a little quiet bar from you know sort of various like loans and dual registrations and stuff for some of the younger players so yeah for me actually the big one is Katie McCabe renewing her contract in September that for me mattered more than pretty much anything Arsenal could do in this window obviously Emily Fox is great but yeah I think that's key is keeping hold of some of your players and I think that's what they're going to have to slightly worry about towards the end of the season as well they don't need to recruit a huge number at the moment the squad is pretty pretty strong pretty solid but, when you're adding someone of the quality of Emily Fox, you don't need to really do much else.

A couple of other deals that have gone through. Leicester have strengthened their attack with the signing of Japan international Yuka Momiki, while Bristol City have signed goalkeeper Shea Yanez from San Diego Wave. Now some other news to keep you updated on and some sad news actually from the former Everton defender and Danish international Rika Sveki. The 27-year-old's been forced to retire from playing because of a heart condition. She revealed in a social media post that having undergone testing in recent months, results have come back, which she says means that I'm not allowed to continue playing professional football and have therefore been forced to stop playing immediately

absolutely devastating for her such a young age as well so much more to come Susie but health is more important definitely and I mean what's really sad is she was moved to Portland since September didn't play in any of their final four games of the season and was going to you know potentially stay on there and was really excited about it and you know

it's horrible to have that choice I suppose of when you go out taken away from you and that can have a real mental impact so I hope she's got the support around her

that she deserves and needs Absolutely meanwhile the FA has announced that it's assessing relevant information around the death of Sheffield United player Maddy Cusack before deciding if it needs to take action.

A spokesperson said, following the conclusion of the club's independent establish what, if any, next steps may be appropriate were in dialogue with Maddy's family and the club during this process. On Monday, The Athletic reported that the Cusack family had submitted a complaint detailing a wide range of grievances relating to her last seven months at the club, coinciding with the appointment of Jonathan Morgan as the team's manager. You'll remember Morgan stepped away from his role in October while the investigation was conducted, but returned to work earlier this month after the club said

it found no evidence of wrongdoing. We'll obviously keep you updated with whether the FA decide to further investigate. Now then, that kind of rounds up everything that we've missed while we've been away. Now to look ahead to what promises to be a very exciting weekend in the fourth round of the FA Cup with the big guns entering the competition, all 12 WSL sides in action. Some of the standout matchups include my very own Luton Town, who are the lowest ranked team left in the competition, and they're going to be hosting WSL opposition in the shape of Brighton.

Manchester United will play Newcastle United, which should be a fantastic atmosphere. Plus all the WSL ties between Chelsea and West Ham, Bristol City and Liverpool and Aston Villa and Everton. I mean, I wonder how much you've seen the FA Cup grow, Kelly, in your time with them. A record crowd, obviously, for last year's final. How important is this competition?

How further can it develop? Well, it's hugely important. You know, I think it is the big domestic cup competition with a great history. And obviously the final at Wembley makes it really, really special for the players and fans. I think it's an exciting year ahead for it. I don't see any shocks in the fourth round. I'll be interested to see how Newcastle get on at Manchester United just because it's a really exciting project there. And obviously, you know, they've got big ambitions

and it'll be an interesting benchmark, I think, of sort of where they're at. But I see all the big guns coming through. But who knows? What do I know? You've burst my Hatter's balloon. benchmark I think of sort of where they're at but but I see all the big guns coming through but who knows what do I know you've burst my hatter's balloon I'm sorry yes sorry well you know uh ex-Brighton player I'm going to I'm not going to be predicting a shock I've got to live in Brighton remember um I think this competition is um an interesting sort of crossroads in its development i think without a really clear sort of joined up strategy for its growth across all of the rounds it's at risk of becoming a bit of a poorer relation to the wsl who you know have obviously been really focused on the games in the

big stadiums and building attendances and have got the sky and bbc deal so you can see uh you know normally a couple of live games a weekend and you'd go and look at the fourth round of the FA Cup. The big guns are in. It should be really, really exciting. And it's great that there's, I think, eight games on FA Player, but there's one on sort of BBC's website.

There's none live on TV. And I think there's a lot more to do. When you look at what's just happened in the men's FA Cup third round, it's been played across, what, four or so days of live games all across the weekend, hugely visible. And then you come to when the big guns come into the Women's FA Cup, and I think there's probably not as much visibility as we would like.

So I think there's more to do. It's fantastic, the work that the FA have done to grow the final. But now I think it's more to do. It's fantastic the work that the FA have done to grow the final. But now I think it's got to be a really concerted effort to think about how it grows all of the rounds. One of the interesting things, obviously the Champions League, UEFA did with the Women's Champions League,

was when it came to the knockout, you know, they insisted on VAR and it sort of forced those games into the big grounds. And suddenly it took off. And off and you know we saw those huge tendencies in iconic stadiums so I think there's some thinking to do around the Women's FA Cup for the FA. Yeah I agree with you. Your Spurs Chris are hosting Sheffield United I'm sure you'd like to see Robert Villaham give this tournament a real crack this season. Absolutely I mean you know I start every season thinking both of our teams

are going to be in the FA Cup final and I continue to believe that until we get knocked out, literally, until the whistle blows and the game, we get knocked out.

So, you know, why not? I always think back to that year that West Ham got into the FA Cup final. It wasn't that long ago. What, three seasons ago, was it?

And I always just think, well, that's where we should be that's definitely what we should be going for and I think again that would be a really great marker of where the team is developing and you know exactly as Kelly said about you know what those ambitions are and playing at Wembley and thinking this is where we belong but I guess every team thinks that you know in the fourth round of the FA Cup right? Yeah absolutely they do so many to look forward to. Susie anything stand out for you quickly? I'm intrigued by Man United Newcastle

as I think everyone is obviously you know there's huge discussion to be had about Newcastle's ownership and their motivations the club's ownership's motivations for investing in the women's team nevertheless it's going to be interesting to see what level that heavily invested in lower tier side can do up against man united and just how big that gap is um and exactly what's going on there i think is really interesting also very very intrigued to see what kind of crowd follows them to lee sports village as well i think that'll be really interesting one because they've been getting really great crowds particularly when they hosted the women's team at st james's park so there's interest intrigue there you know

not necessarily pleasure in it but interest um i think there's like an interesting story between arsenal and watford in that there's a number of sort of young arsenal players on loan there i imagine they won't be able to play but then you know sometimes you get things written into these loan deals that that means that they can so I'll be interested to see whether some of them can and then there's Moneyfields uh playing London City Lionesses as well I know so so little about Moneyfield so like I'm really I'm actually speaking to a few of them this week I'm really really I'm always really really interested to like find out more about some of these clubs that make it into the like slightly latter rounds of the fa cup they're up against london city who have just

been taken over by michelle kang uh who owns washington spirit and now leon as well yeah very exciting can't wait and obviously we'll talk about all of the games next week in the pod. That's it for part one. In part two, we're going to take a deep dive into the state of the women's game and look at what the future holds. Get your crystal balls ready.

Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack, fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Now with Kelly joining us and a bit more time to chat on the pod. We thought this would be the perfect opportunity to take a closer look at the women's game,

how far it's come, how far it still has to go, the major obstacles or barriers in the way of its development, and of course, what the future holds. Kelly, you've been at the forefront of driving the development of the women's game for over 30 years. As you kind of reflect on how things have changed over the last three decades, can you even quantify it in any way yeah you make me sound old don't you 30 years I suppose in a simple terms it's become mainstream and visible so whereas before the major events like world cups and euros there'd be high visibility and and big audiences that's now

transferring into into the domestic game and that regular frequency of eyeballs and attendance is growing but i still think it's got massive growth to come so i think it's been on a huge journey so many people have contributed so much to get it where it is we know the fight that we've had to get it to where it is but i you know when i stepped back from the fa recently my last interview i said that i thought that women's football globally would be the second biggest sport behind men's football i stand by that i think that would happen in my lifetime as long as i don't get run over by a bus tomorrow and um and all the indicators when you look at the women's world cup the growth across the world the growth of the w indicators when you look at the Women's World Cup, the growth across the world, the growth of the WSL,

when you think about how little investment really it's had, it's just on a phenomenal growth curve, and it's only going to get bigger and bigger. And already it's getting some audiences that would match the men's championship. And Arsenal have already shown the way with some belief and investment you know clear vision and belief and investment what what can be achieved in terms of attendances and if everybody stepped up to that then I think it would be very quickly moving to to second place behind men's football so I think it's got a massive future I'm really excited by the new co finally it'll have a

dedicated laser focus executive that wakes up in the morning, doesn't have to think about multiple things. It's just going to be purely focused on the women's professional game and have an independent voice that is needed for the women's game when we need to stand up for the women's game. And I think, you know, the fact that the clubs will own it means that they'll be even more invested in making sure it's a success. So I think it's got a really exciting future. It's only going one way. Yeah, it certainly is. As a journalist, Susie, you and I have spoken before about the difference in terms of how many more journalists,

for example, are now able to have jobs because of the growth of the women's game. But how much have you seen the interest in it explode, particularly since that glorious Euros triumph for the Lionesses back in 2022. How huge. I mean, the amount of times I get messages on Twitter or replies to articles going, why aren't you covering my club? Why aren't you covering this story and that story?

The story that I want you to cover at the moment is the most important story in the world. Why aren't you covering it right now as I demand? Like, that's annoying, right? But it's also brilliant, because it's a proof of concept. It's proof that demand is there for greater coverage. I mean, we're hiring a second full-time women's football writer at The Guardian, hopefully very, very soon. Like, when I started writing for The Guardian on women's football, it was as a freelancer writing one article a week, which was like a roundup of everything going on in the world of women's football and that was just around the time of the women's euros in 2017 so we're talking like a really really rapid point to where the guardian has a full-time women's football writer and is now hiring a second

full-time women's football writer like that you know you just you know in an industry that is generally shrinking you just don't see that so the the interest and demand is huge you know obviously we've seen it with the podcast as well like you know it's a while before the guardian got a podcast going you know the sort of trajectory of this podcast has been really really strong and really great and the the relationship is really interesting right like because it's really reliant on each other i can't think of the right word that's in my head but where the women's game currently really really needs the media to grow it really needs across not just newspapers but you know the tv coverage the broadcast rights deals the free-to-air telly all of those things uh that tell the story of these players that build the interest that drive the the hype around it and then the media really really needs the women's game to sort of step

up and provide those stories in order to enable its growth and it to become a financially viable area to invest in as a media organization so there's this really like at the moment it's it's like quite a satisfying relationship because I think everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet, which I don't think is the same in the men's side anymore. You know, I think, you know,

now the men's game is so absolutely massive. Obviously, it still needs press coverage. Obviously, it still needs games to be covered and broadcast and all those things. But there's not quite the like, we need this to exist like mentality that that there has to be in the women's game still for quite some time which makes it a really satisfying place to be in cover because that they're so intertwined that it's

really nice when when you're sat at a table interviewing a player not about the growth of the women's game but just about themselves or about you know their injury or whatever it may be or their form or or whatever knowing that that mentally there's a respect and a mutual appreciation and a mutual desire to drive the game forward that's a really it's really nice like it's just a really satisfying thing yeah it is uh chris you've obviously spoken up tirelessly on key issues across the sport what's your assessment of where we currently find ourselves i think it's a really exciting time and that i mean there are so many things i could say in this moment but just reflecting on what um kelly and susie have just said both of of which I 100% agree with,

I think the one thing we have to really be mindful of is that we need a strong pyramid. And so, you know, we've got to be really careful that all the resources don't just end up in those top two tiers. And I'm talking about women's participation across the game generally. So you're talking about fans, you're talking about coaches, you're talking about refs,

you're talking about women working at all levels across the game and that that is self-sustaining and that self-staining and strong pyramid is really important and it's kind of got inclusion diversity belonging as its foundations and that the resources aren't just focused on those top clubs because it might seem and i know we don't know we all know this, but it might seem like the right idea right now. But that's not how you build a sustainable game. I mean, I know we all know this, but I think that pyramid piece is really important. Yeah, we'll mention grassroots in a second. But you mentioned at the start of the pod, Kelly, the football review led by Karen Carney. And obviously at the beginning of December,

we had the news that the UK government is going to back all recommendations to that women's football review. But what does that mean in practical terms? It always feels like, you know, this is what we're going to do and then people forget about it. Well, not everybody forgets about it, obviously. How do we actually see this happening and measure it, if you like, and hold them to account on it? Yeah, I think it's really important.

So much work went in by Karen and various people that supported her into that review. Hours and hours and hours. And there's some really, really good stuff in there. It's quite detailed and it covers everything from a strong pyramid that chris has mentioned right through to nuco right through to sort of world-class player care and player welfare and performance environments more money needed for academies etc so it's really important that the football stakeholders there's some clear messages there for the football stakeholders really important that that doesn't sit on the shelf and i know talking to dcms they're really keen that that doesn't happen to and ditto karen know talking to DCMS, they're really keen that that doesn't happen too. And ditto Karen as well.

So I think there'll be sort of moves afoot in the new year to try and make sure that that document stays live and that the FA, the New Co, the Premier League, et cetera, those that are named, you know, get together and work through what is in that document because there's some really, really good stuff in there that will help the whole game. i love the carny review um i just always think we could be bolder um in like how we push back against uh heading sort of down the same road at the men's

game and this is where i really agree with chris on i focus on the pyramids because like one of the things that irritates me is this 75 25 split between the championship and the women's super league for broadcast money coming in because yes it's really good that the championship is getting 25 that's obviously significantly improved on what goes on between um the premier league and the the men's championship in the efl and stuff like it's much much, much better deal. But I think that split will carry on into Nugo. You're still basically permanently inserting a growing gap because the top of the league is still getting a massively bigger percentage,

three times as much. So that gap is ever-growing as long as that exists. And I would just love to see things completely flipped on their head. And we say we give 75% to the championship and below, and then 25% to women's Super League, and then you're actually properly closing the gap and properly bringing people up. is slightly more liberal for like if you know thinking politically uh than the the premier league slightly less profit driven but uh with an eye on what is going on below and you know like talks good talk on it but i would love to see some like real radical change that for me would be like the game changer and i don't think we're going to see that, which I find personally concerning. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And another good point, I think that is absolutely vital, Chris, is the lack of diversity needs to be addressed across the women's game, which was

one of the recommendations from the report on pitch and off pitch roles. And it's so important to make football feel like a place, important to make football feel like a place, not just make football feel like a place for everyone. It is a place for everyone. Therefore, there should be more roles and more diverse candidates taking these roles. Absolutely. And I think the kick it out sort of input

into the Kearney review was really important on all of those areas. So, you know, it covered a lack of representation particularly in terms of race and ethnicity in terms of players and coaches um i'm not going to sort of go through it all there but there's like loads of evidence of kind of what it looked like and what some potential solutions are and then also around sort of cost of girls academies and what the payoffs are and all the rest of it so there's lots of stuff in there and i think it's really important that you know and i think the fa has recognized this and has been talking about this for the last you know the last few years i know it's some stuff that

kelly and her colleagues have worked on um my concern around you know as you're sort of developing the you know more sort of more etc is good, more opportunities in places where you can capture, where you can sort of get to young women that might not have had the opportunity before is fantastic. My concern, and this is, you know, sort of jumping to another topic, is who are the coaches in those spaces? Because, you know, if you're going to try and have loads and loads and loads and loads and loads more girls playing football, you you need more coaches who's attracted to coaching are they going to be good enough i've heard lots of anecdata and it is anecdotums hearsay evidence i appreciate that around sort of sexual harassment and worryingly also sexual assault from male coach educators and coaching staff in the women's game and i think we have to front it up like properly

in order to ensure that we could do something about it and that's not just you know you're talking about bullying and harassment policies but also cultures that understand and deal with them and recognize what it looks like because the people that are often making the decisions about things i mean talking about it in a very general sense, don't understand what it feels like for that young woman or that little girl in that environment. So you've got to be really, really careful around that. You've only got to look at the sort of verbal and emotional abuse

and sexual misconduct. And, you know, we saw it in the independent investigation into the NWSL. We saw it in the independent investigation into the nwsl we saw it with our own eyes during the world cup thanks to to rubiales and so we can't just assume it's just not happening here so it's like okay so what do we need to put in place and to ensure that we're doing from the get-go to prevent any of that. And it means like being really kind of careful about hiring, about what those policies are. And the most important thing is,

is just believe any young woman or girl that says that something's happening, just as a baseline. And I think that again, will begin to create those cultures. And this is really important, isn't it? It's all foundations, it's cultures in place that then you can build on. And then, you know, we always immediately with women's football

go straight into talking about the commercial aspects of it and the money and how big it can be, etc. But actually, there's so much more at the base of it that has to be, you know, correct going forward. We should do a pod just on this. We should. Well, we were going to do, we were. Had we not had the Christmas break, Susie, we were going to just talk about this.

But obviously there's so much news that we have to catch up on as well. But don't you worry, we've got specials in our back pocket, myself and Susie Rack, so you will, we will be the place to go to find out everything that's going on and have a proper debate about the state of of the women's game just to kind of round this up before we take a few questions kelly you mentioned the new co very briefly for anybody by the way because it is such a kind of weird catch-all name for it the new co for anybody who doesn't actually know what it means it's basically the new club-owned

organization that is going to run women's professional football in england and it takes over control from the fa from next season but it's got a very strange name that just gets thrown into conversation and i do feel sometimes if people are new to women's football or maybe aren't up with the governance stories going on that they won't necessarily know when people throw it in what exactly it means but is it going to be a success Kelly? I think so I mean I led the initial ownership review project with Porter's Consultancy we made a recommendation to the board we looked at the options around the FA, Premier League and an independent club owned company we went for the latter we felt that it was really important that there was that laser focus we felt they needed a dedicated executive

that completely prioritized the women's super league and women's championship we pushed for both leagues to go together so that there wasn't that split and that both grew together the game needs a successful strong pyramid so you know i was pleased to see that get over the line too um so yes absolutely i think it's it's needed i think it was time to come out of the fa the fa did a fantastic job building it in its sort of build phase and now it moves into a different phase of its development it will be alongside making sure it's a world-class product with world-class academies and player standards and everything that's you know karen identified in the karen carney report alongside that it will go into

you know the next phase of its commercial growth it went from uh zero to 18 million pounds centrally in the last three years and of course you know dawn airy the brilliant chair has gone out on record to say that they've got fantastic ambition i love a big ambition to be the first billion pound women's league in the next 10 years so you know there's big growth big commercial potential um it's really important that i think one or two leagues across the world maybe have lost the football while they've been trying to grow commercially. I think it's really important that there's a really clear football strategy around performance environment for players, player welfare, really strong pipeline of talent to come through and support the pyramid, the WSL Championship and the pyramid and England alongside its commercial growth. So I was really pleased to see that they've come out for advert

for a chief football officer alongside a chief revenue officer. And I think that sort of sets the stall at early doors, that football alongside the business is really, really important. So I think it will be a success. And I think it's going to be a fascinating watch. But I don't see why not. And I think, you know, one of Nicky's first jobs would be to identify a secure investment to make sure that everything is invested in that delivers great football a great environment for the players and commercial you know maximizes commercial revenue

so all good I think. Oh brilliant okay well that leads nicely onto one of our questions actually from Laura she sent this in, Susie. With Jim Ratcliffe taking over the helm at Manchester United and significant opportunity for growth in the women's game, what would be your wish list for investment priorities if you were part of the leadership of the women's set-up? Oh, yeah, I suppose to sort of touch on it when we were chatting Mary Ups earlier, right? Like, I'd love to see an ownership

that properly cares about the women's team and is like really like invested not just financially but generally invested in its progress and is gonna properly I suppose do a like big analysis piece internally of the state of play of the women's setup of why they're not retaining some of their biggest uh players and you know homegrown talent and things like that you know alessia russo was a childhood man united fan why didn't they keep a hold of her like looking at some of those things why does mary ups want to consider a move away you know man united are a huge club i'd like to see them assessing all of those things looking at the staffing you know assessing um mark

skinner's effectiveness and popularity which is kind of up and down with with the wind uh and things at the moment and properly looking at all of the aspects that have drawn criticism in recent years their gym set up you know sort of being in a tent and all those kind of things like I'd like a proper proper internal review I suppose of the state of play and then serious like investment in what needs to be done to to sort of bring it up to scratch and bring it in line with the likes of the Arsenal's Chelsea cities of the world that I think, is what has to happen if they're going to be serious contenders moving forward. They need investment, but money just isn't enough, as we're seeing. They're signing great players. Money is there to a certain extent,

but there's not a holistic approach from the club towards the team as a whole and its development. And I think that's what's needed is that, that sort of real like attentive piece. Well, maybe that goes back to Chris's mention of culture because, you know, I think there are quite a few clubs that maybe need to look at their culture. This is one for you, Chris.

The Wolves Women pod asked, with Newcastle likely to get promoted this season, do you think more teams in the FA Women's National League will go full-time professional or will they be glad to see them gone and keep to the semi-pro slash amateur model?

I mean, I don't know. I think it comes back to what we were just talking about, about what happens with the pyramid in these changes. Because I think that you know there's got to be that it's likely that as the game grows that should have a positive effect sort of lower down the leagues so some of those teams that are semi-professional will go professional and that actually the sort of semi-proneness will go further down if you see what i mean there should be some kind of a trickle down effect right is what you would hope but you only have to look at this is a bit of a leap so

bear with me i've got no evidence on which to back this up you only have to look at the money that say fifa give to a number of international federations for their women's team that never gets to the women's team so you know there's also an additional risk there that if there is solidarity payment that comes from the the top of the pyramid down into other clubs that do have men's clubs associated with them that the money doesn't just end up getting funneled into the men's clubs that actually stays with the women's clubs which again is why from a regulation perspective you know is whether the independent regulator is going to also apply to the women's game and so you can make sure that actually from a from a

money perspective the money's going to the right places so there's so many moving parts here but you know we're talking about it we're thinking about it so hopefully the parts will land in the right place just to wrap all of this up ke I mean, you're leaving a pretty good legacy, I would say, after 30 years. But what are you most proud of and what do you most hope, you know, has made lasting change? I'll have two quick ones.

Yeah, of course, absolutely. Because one is boys and girls football, because I worked for a number of years as director of development for men's and women's football and we changed the way children play football so um we brought in the 5v5 7v7 9v9 um so that children played more appropriate games at an earlier age and it was much much better for their development and i think we've seen with that alongside the investment in academies on the boys side have massive returns

for boys football both its retention and and the development of players alongside the girls as well so you know i work with some brilliant people um as director of development some fantastic people who who help drive a lot of change in youth football culturally um environment-wise, inclusion-wise, and technical development. But I think when I look back, probably the WSL because of that, the chance to help mainstream women's football, I think for me the turning point was probably the Sky and BBC deal. I think it's an interesting one for the next deal, which is due. We were really clear we were reach over revenue

reach was our priority um and therefore that free-to-air partnership with bbc was as fundamentally important as sky who have done a brilliant job of delivering football for us um and some great audiences as well but i think it was really important as we were building the fan base that we had that visibility so i think that felt like the breakthrough moment because suddenly you know overnight into that new season of the first deal it was just so so much more visible and the audiences speak for themselves so so yeah you know again working with brilliant people and the clubs are fantastic absolutely fantastic I don't think the clubs get the credit sometimes they deserve both for helping England's success and really driving the women's game forward so it's a privilege to work you know with Emma and Claire

Arsene and all those people who are just transforming women's football in this country so yeah it's it was a great great time to be involved. Of course, I'm still involved now, but hats on. Yeah. So I can't I can't give up my passion and love for helping to try and drive the game forward. I'm glad you haven't, because you are an absolute wonder. And what you've done is, frankly, incredible. So thank you. And thank you, everybody, today. It's been really fascinating, actually, talking about the state of the women's game where we're at at the start of 2024 i look forward to to the next piece in 2025 to see how this year progresses and where we get uh suzy i'll see you soon see you soon i'm so

glad that we've got through this without chris like ribbing me over the spurs game without a cheeky martha thomas dropped in or a 58 minutes somewhere or something you know what I thought about it right at the top there was a there was an in and then I think someone else started talking so I just thought you know what I'll just have a little bit of superiority uh just you know I thought you'd be wearing a scarf Chris we absolutely ruined you Susie on the day itself and said that's why you hadn't turned up. Obviously, we knew that you were quite poorly, but it was very convenient timing, I think. Kelly and Chris, it's been an absolute pleasure.

So lovely to see you both. Thank you for your contributions. Thank you. Good seeing you. We'll be back next week and every week now through to the end of the season, rounding up those FA Cup fourth round ties and looking ahead to the return of the WSL on the 20th and 21st of January remember keep tweeting us your questions or sending us an email on womensfootballweeklyattheguardian.com and subscribe

to the Guardians moving the goalpost newsletter as well the Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver music composition was by Laura Iredale. Our executive producer is Salamat. Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack, fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today

starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen.