The Harland Highway - ANDREW BUSTAMANTE former CIA intelligence officer spills the beans and gets put to the test!

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

This episode is sponsored by MASA and Wayfair! -Ready to give MASA a try? Go to MASAChips.com/HARLAND and use code HARLAND for 25% off your first order. T - Get organized, refreshed, and back to routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Wayfair. Every style. Every home. Join The Harland Highway Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/HarlandWilliams Thanks for watching the Harland Highway. More Harland Williams: Harland Highway Podcast Video: https://www.youtube.com/c/HarlandHighwayPodcast Harland Highway Podcast Audio: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-harland-highway/id321980603 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harlandwilliams Harbling Shirts: https://www.harbling.com Official Website: https://www.harlandwilliams.com Twitter :https://twitter.com/harlandhighway?lang=en #podcast #harlandwilliams More Andrew Bustamante: Website: https://everydayspy.com/about-andrew X: https://x.com/EverydaySpy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One, and sip, and two, and sip, and three, and sip. Oh, hey, I'm just sipping Tim's all-new protein ice latte. Starting at 17 grams per medium latte, Tim's new protein lattes, protein without all the work, at participating restaurants in Canada. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days, delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered.

A cabana? That's a no, but a banana, not to you. Yes. A nice tan. Sorry. Nope. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. I was able to identify there was a person there as I was walking through the area. Wow. And then presented themselves, show the knife, used Pigeon English, because they understood that I was not of the local culture. Pigeon English.

So use Pigeon English to basically say it. So this guy's in the middle of the night. He goes, hey. That's straight pigeon. Okay, my mistake. Sorry. Not up on my languages. Well, I am just a spaceman.

Floating in out of space. And I'm riding on the Holland highway. I'm just going to do this before we get going. Just going to do a quick screen, make sure we're not. Nobody's bugging us. I think we're clean. I don't know. I've not seen that tool before.

Oh, yeah. Check it out. I got to take a look. Yeah, you just look around and see if, look for bugs. Make sure. I feel like I just have a fly eye. Right? That's what it feels like.

And that term, when I say we're clean, you know exactly what I'm saying, right? I know what you mean. Right. Because ladies and gentlemen, my guest here today will get to his name in a minute, but more importantly, worked in the CIA, was with the CIA. Absolutely. And just so we're clear, full disclosure, I was with CAA for a long time. They rejected me, CAA.

They rejected you. So you got into CIA. CAA won't take you, but they took a buffoon like me. I later went to William Morris, and that's classified. And now I'm looking at the UTA, and that's between me and you. I got you. But, dude, tell us, first of all, let's hit the theme music. Ladies and gentlemen

And help me with the last name, Andrew I don't want to butcher it It's all good, Bustamante. Is that Italian? It's actually Spanish Spanish. Even though the second place where it's the most popular

in the world is the Philippines. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I have a lot of Filipinos who walk up to me and say, are we related? Yeah. And I look at him and I'm pretty sure we're not related.

Yeah, you're not. I can tell just by looking at you. No way. Andrew, such a delight to have you here a very unique guest because you're a gentleman who's sort of

been into a very secretive place that most of us have seen in the movies. We've read about it in spy novels. CIA, talk to me, guy. Wow. CIA is nothing like you see in the movies and I want to flag that early on because the movies make it look

way more action-oriented, way more interesting, way more dialogue, Yeah. Than it really is. And CIA in real life is far more like bureaucratic and kind of mundane and pedestrian than you would think. About 98% of what we do is so boring, nobody notices. The only, only about 2% of what we do is worth making a movie about. Sort of like milk.

Like milk. Yeah. 2% milk. Only 2% of it's fat. Yeah, right. Well, I think it may be, if I could make a, comparison. It's like private eyes. I've met private eyes in real life and everyone thinks, so private eyes are driving around Hawaii and a red Ferrari solving these mysteries. And 99% of

private eyes, they sit in cars outside buildings waiting for people to go in and out. I say it's the most boring job ever. Yeah, it's exactly. I mean, it's so much like most of what you see in media, like hospitals. Hospitals are not exciting places. Ask anybody who works in a hospital. That's Unless you're a clown, and then it's exciting. Or lawyers. Most of what lawyers do is not fun. It's the courtroom scene that looks so sexy in the movie, but that scene only happens maybe twice in the lifetime of a high-impact attorney.

Right, right. Well, you've been, you're in a dramatic field, but it sounds like it's not as dramatic as we would suspect. And you don't want it to be dramatic. If it's dramatic, you're doing something wrong. Oh, because you're bringing attention to yourself. Yes, you're supposed to be in, be out, nobody even knows you there. Lurking in the shadows, covert.

Completely forgettable. Wow. Now, I got to say, looking at you physically, you're not a forgettable guy. Like, you would stand out in a crowd with your look, your hair. Is that a good, smart look for the CIA? Like, if you're at an L-KDA meeting and the drummer from Iron Maiden standing in the corner, Is that the right look? Not when you're trying to be clandestine.

That's a fair point. And this is not how I looked for most of my clandestine career. For most of my career with CIA, I was the forgettable brown guy, oftentimes in a country where brown is immediately ignored anyways. Right. In the United States, we think we have a race problem, but we had a black president.

We have people of color that are all over our Senate of the house. So, I mean, we have a mixed, race history, but as far as being actively racist now, I would challenge that. I agree. To the rest of the world. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think the only race problem we have here is when I pull up to a light in my Tesla and

some guy in a regular gasoline car tries to, you know, drag with me. Do they still try and do that? I would hope that. You don't want to race a Tesla. You don't want to race a battery powered electric vehicle. I know. They just, I had a guy pull up to me with a Corvette once, and he was like, oh, I had his music playing and I just looked at him and I was gone and he pulled up to me at the next

I goes hey man you're a fucking asshole and I go dude you're the one you want if you want a fast car get a Tesla he this was when they were sort of out early and he didn't know okay so I got so many questions because it's a fascinating world everyone watching I have 12 viewers by the way one in the Philippines hi Filipino viewer yeah Nunga Tunk a garlic bread face he lives down there on Walnut Street. On one of the islands. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I want to get into kind of like the mindset of someone in the CIA.

Like, are you one of those guys that's ultra perceptive? Like when you walked in this studio, did you kind of do the, okay, okay, there's that, there's a light switch, there's the thing, there's the window, there's that, like, do you, do you, are you one of the guys that walks in the room and like takes it all in or is that sort of a myth? No, it's not a myth. We really do learn what's called situational awareness. That situational awareness is something we kind of carry with us almost automatically. It doesn't mean that we pick up everything, but it means that we pick up broad strokes. Well, what about people? What about reading people? And I don't care how invasive you get. I don't care how insulting or how complimentary. We just met for the first time literally 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago. Looking at me, and I can see the eyes, I can see the motors turning. Looking at me and not knowing much more about me than maybe what you've seen in the press. Now that you're feeling my energy, now that we're face-to-face, we're four feet apart,

is there any analyses you would make where you have interpretations of me? And no holds barred. So there's a few things. So first, I would say you're energetically, you're very open. Now, I don't know whether you are a high energy person by nature or whether you are high energy in this moment because you're preparing to be in front of cameras, be in front of lights,

or if with your experience and with your career, lights and cameras equal, energy comes on. But your energy outside was equal to your energy inside right now. Okay. I will say that you project energy very directly, very intentionally. Your voice is loud, it's booming. Your speech has a pace that's very consistent but slower. So is that learned behavior?

through your career or were you built for this career by what happened to you as a child. And now you know you have to entertain to get attention, to keep attention. You have to speak slowly in order for people to understand you. I don't know where it's coming from, but it's there and it's consistent on camera and off camera. So it makes me feel like if I wanted to test what the limits were, I'd want to spend a full day with you. I'd want to spend a day with you around people. I'd want to spend part of a day with you in private. Like when do you change?

Do you change at all? how much of this is truly you, how much of this is learned. Okay, great analyses, and I'll illuminate you on one of them. The slow sort of speech pattern, it's just how I was born. And through the course of my life, I've literally had people like wonder if I was slow. I don't get that. When I was younger, I think. And then when I was in high school, the kids used to call me stoner,

because I sort of had a bit of a drawl. And then when I lived in Europe, all the Germans, all the Europeans were convinced I was from Texas because I sort of had a bit of a slower drawl. And so you nailed it with that. That's funny. I mean, it's a very clear speech pattern. Yeah.

That's largely absent of a heavy Canadian accent. Yeah, somehow that got weaned off of me. I didn't try to do it. It's just I've been here 30 years. So it's very natural. But it's inviting, it's ingratiating. I would be shocked if you don't have. I would be shocked if not everybody feels like your friend the first time they meet you.

Oh, wow. I like that. Yeah. Well, I like to feel the same. It's reciprocal when I meet people I like to put out the friendship vibe. It's coming through. Well, let me ask you this. I don't even why I would expose myself to this, anything nefarious coming through.

Any deviant or scary or violent? that, and nope, don't hold bad, is there anything in my eyes or my aura where you're just like, whoa, dude, what's in the basement? No, actually not at all. Oh, okay. I can understand why people would assume that you might not be intellectually advanced. Okay. I can totally sense that because you're so chill and you're so open where, generally speaking,

the smarter somebody is, the more closed and the less open they are. education kind of breeds distrust. Interesting. So when you meet somebody who's highly educated, oftentimes you feel threatened by them, you want to keep distance from them. They will keep distance from you because they'll use vocabulary that you're not familiar with.

So it feels very uncomfortable around a very smart person. Right. But you don't use vocabulary that's isolating and your energy is so open. It's almost as if the natural trust makes people think, well, you must not be smart. To be this friendly, you must not be smart. and that's, it's in your best interest.

It's an advantage for you because people will kind of always underestimate you at first. Looks like stupid's paying off, game. Last laughs on you, smarties. Looks like dummy got it this time. That's right. It's a gulla-gola garlic bread face.

Yeah, garlic bread face. You browners. Dumb dummy came out on top this time. I like that. Well, that's interesting because that's a huge, I mean, when you're in the field. You have to learn not to be smart. Oh, really?

Because so many of the people they recruit are very, very smart people. And if you think about the average American experience, you're supposed to work hard, earn accolades, and then like promote, promote, promote. You're supposed to look sophisticated, act sophisticated, speak sophisticated. You're supposed to demonstrate your power through your intellectual learning. Okay. And then you get to CIA, and they're like, hey, you're here. You've arrived, you know, hooray, high fives, fist bumps.

Now you need to be the dumbest person in the room. You need to learn how not to talk about yourself. You need to learn how not to brag. You need to learn how to listen, how to subdue everything about you. You're used to wearing the nicest clothes so that everybody notices you. Stop doing that. Be unassuming. You're used to blend in.

You're used to having a great body so that people notice your body. Get rid of it. Like, do everything you can to go gray. I would say I would agree with all of that but that the idea of not keeping your body in prime shape knowing that, and correct me if I'm wrong, do CIA agents often run into scenarios where it gets physical

and they might have to fight for the very life if they're uncovered or they're in a precarious situation? So it's a ladder of security. So almost like concentric bubbles if you think about it, right? Put yourself in a bubble and then you have a bubble around that bubble and a bubble around that bubble. Let's just call it bubble wrap.

Bubble wrap. Yeah. The first layer of bubble wrap is supposed to be your cover. So all of the backstopping, why you're there, who you are. So if you're supposed to be an academic, if you have a phenomenal body, those two things kind of contradicts. Don't fit. Yeah. How do you have time to have that gray body if you're a master in some Greek language?

Huh. The two things contradicts. So right away somebody meets them and they're like, this doesn't make sense. and the great body on the Greek academic makes them memorable. So even in an academic setting, if you go to a language conference, you're not going to see a bunch of people who are fit. And when you do see somebody who's fit, they really stick out. So it starts to contradict the cover identity.

So your first bubble of protection is your cover. So you have to prioritize your cover. Your second layer of protection starts to become your defense of your presence, what we would call cover for action or cover for, cover for, hold on, I just lost it, there's two different covers. Ah, it'll come to me later. Okay. Your cover for action is the cover that you use for doing the thing that you're doing.

Okay. So you've got your first bubble wrap, why you're there at all. Yeah. And then your second bubble wrap, why you're doing the specific thing that you're doing. So consider somebody walking down a street through a neighborhood. They might be there, bubble wrap one, because they're looking for a house. But that doesn't give them the cover for action to actually knock on a door or to open a mailbox or to, you know, take a picture of a house. Right.

It's harder then. So they have to have a different reason for describing why they're doing the thing that they're doing. That's your second layer of bubble wrap. And then only after both of those two bubble wraps fail, do you ever have to worry about a police officer or a local watch person or a private security guard coming through not believing your first bubble, not believing your second bubble, and then laying hands on you? Once they lay hands on you, we use something called biomechanical advantage, which is different than physical strength, to be able to defend ourselves. And that makes it so that whether you're a 55-year-old fatty or whether you're a 22-year-old partially disabled person, you can still use self-defense techniques without having to be strong or fit or superior biological.

And this is part of the CIA training, where they, I'm guessing it's all about leverage and maneuvering and all, like, judo and, Right. We have our own self-defense system. We call it operational defense. It's defensive tactics that use biomechanical advantage. So essentially, it really is to the place where some bodybuilder from down the street can come up here, he can outweigh you by 40 pounds and be 25 years younger than you, and you can still take him to the ground. Because you understand the biomechanical advantage that he doesn't understand. The physics. And I think judo is actually a martial art that leans into that a lot. You could have a bigger guy, and you grab them by the collar, and you shift them. You literally just shift that weight and use his weight against them. Correct. And you can shift them and spin them right. I took judo when I was younger, and so I understand the physics of all of this. And then on a smaller scale, because judo requires momentum.

Yeah, that's right. But if you look at it something like mixed martial arts, they have pressure points. Pressure points don't require momentum, but they are places on your body where a little bit of pressure goes a long way. That's more of what we call a biomechanical advances. Yeah, that's stuff. You've got to kind of study that. So dipping into the violence in your career, because I'm sure everyone would love to hear,

were there moments, and I don't know if you're allowed to talk about them, were there moments where you confronted violence and you, dare I say, were in a life-threatening situation where you had to literally fight your way out or shoot your way out or whatever? So we don't shoot our way out of many. situations. Well, you don't, I do. Let's not

put your training on me. I shoot. Okay? But it's because when you're undercover in a foreign country, most countries don't allow guns. So you can't actually have a weapon on you. And if you had a weapon, you'd want to keep it not only undisclosed, but also undischarged. Because as soon as you're the one in the street

with a gun, even the police officers don't have guns in a lot of countries, right? But what about sort of the spy guns with the silencers? and the gun in the pan and like, don't you have those kind of... We have all that technology and more, because it's modernized,

but that stuff is largely used by paramilitary officers in very specialized operations where they have other teams. But that doesn't mean that we don't run into violence. Actually, the most common violence that we run into overseas is...

Don't say domestic, because if you tell me you go overseas on a covert mission and a housewife slapped you, I'm ending this right now. No, luckily it's not that out of it. But it's... It's crimes of opportunity and petty theft

because people see a clandestine officer and they don't think that person's threatening. Remember how I was telling you? Right, right, yeah. I'm assuming, yeah. So there's some single, single gray-haired lady walking down the street at 11 o'clock at night, right? In some shady district.

And everybody looks at her and they're like, she's a dumb ass. She's got to be a tool. Let's get her. Well, she is also carrying $100,000 in her purse because she's on her way to do a dead drop to meet, you know, to pass money to some Russian informant. So she can't let that 100,000,

thousand dollars go. She's trained in biomechanical advantage. So this person will assault her with a knife, a baton, whatever else, and then get their ass kicked in this back street. By the old lady. By the old lady. Now wait, is this a legitimate senior citizen or is this a guy like you in a wig and like, you know, dressed as an old lady? It's, it's, well, I wouldn't dress like an old lady because that's not a, that's not a disguise I can maintain. But in the dark going up a street at night, you wouldn't do that? So it's a legitimate senior citizen. Listen, with 200 grand, and knows out a kicker way out of a biker bar. So it's not an octogenarian, right?

We're not talking about some 80-plus-year-old? It's not an 80-plus-year-old person. Well, what did you say? Octogenarian. Is that like an ostrich with a lisp? What is an ostricharian? An octogenarian is a very old person, usually over the age of 80. Wow.

It's easily someone between 40 and 60, who's still in their career, who's doing the Exactly the dead drop plan that we just discussed, male or female, who is being assaulted by two or four people who are anywhere between 16 and 25. So a group, they could handle themselves in a group. Oh, I like that. And that's a very common thing. Also, like women, thin, under assuming women might be sexually harassed or might be physically assaulted, might even be an attempted rape.

And she would be able to dispatch her opponent very quickly and move on with her career. So for me, being a, I'm a thin, brown male, and oftentimes where I operated... Now, you keep saying brown. To me, I would just would have thought you were a white guy. Is that insulting? What does brown mean? Well, brown in the United States just means not easily sunburned on the beach in North Carolina. Huh. Right?

So... Does it bother you that we have to break down all these colors for all the human beings that live in America? It bothers... I hate it. Yeah, it's silly to me. To hear you have to refer to yourself as brown, then I should be going to... going, well, I'm pasty pink. As a pasty pinky, I shouldn't, you're like, it's a, I hate that we have to do this.

Yeah, it's just, but here we are. It'll keep going, Brown. What has Brown done for you lately? God, it's awful. It's, it's, it's, pretty, what are we, a box of crayons? It's, hey, there goes, uh, burnt sienna over there with, uh, Violet Crumble. How are you? I, I don't disagree with you.

Yeah. It's just, uh, it's a way of, We also have to break down gender. We also have to break down age. We also have to break down nationality. We have to break down lots of stuff. Well, you already broke down age calling an old bag an ostrich farmer. What was the word you used?

Austriopocin. What was it? I like those better. What did you say? Octogenarian. God, I learned a new word today. Thank you, CIA, if you're watching, and I know you are. Oh, come on.

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Well, starting in October, Massa will be available nationwide at your local Sprout's supermarket. Stop by and pick up a bag before they're all gone. Crunch and a Munch. Okay, so let's go back to the Brown is walking around, and did you have a confrontation? Yeah, so several. I've had maybe three or five encounters with criminals who underestimate my capabilities because they think that I'm putting myself in a dangerous situation. So I've been assaulted with a knife once I've had multiple gangs of two or three people roll up on me.

Wow. And generally speaking, once any kind of criminal realizes that you, do know what you're doing, they just, they just disperse. Yeah, they're like, holy shit. It's like, it's like a little dog. You go, go get this. You kick a dog and then you're like, okay, okay, like that. Yeah, exactly. But wait, when you say assaulted by a knife, was said knife a dagger, was said knife a switchblade? And did said knife penetrate your epidural layers? Like, or they probably won't even get close with you. Describe the assault. So most knives outside of the United States are actually very small. So you're talking about a blade that's less than five inches. So in my case, what I came across... We're talking about knives. Yeah. Yeah, we're talking. I just don't want to

insult anyone. The browns, the whites, the pinks, the yellows, the purples, anybody. Whatever your length is, it's intimidating. So for me, I was assaulted with a small blade. It may have been a switchblade. It didn't look like a switchblade. It looked like a single, a single molded knife. Like a hunting knife or something? Yeah, like it could have been a, it also could have been a kitchen knife. Like a ginsu. Like a less... Did it have coleslaw on the blade? Could you see caprazy salad in the wedges on the...

Okay. So you were attacked by a chef. Keep going. In an Asian country. Yeah. And then once the person presents the knife, and then you can control their knife hand when there's techniques to control the knife hand,

then they just don't want to be there anymore. So was it a male that came after you? Yeah. And where was it? Outside or inside? Outside, nighttime. kind of a back alley, except there wasn't really an alley. It was more like a back rice field patty kind of situation.

There's a big difference. Where were you in the alley or the rice field? Let me see. Once you explore Southeast Asia, they're strangely the same place. So wait a minute. It's the middle of the night. You're in a rice field for some reason. Were you hungry?

What were you doing in the rice field? I got this egg roll, but I need something to go with it. Yeah. So you're in a rice field. So a rice, a rice patty, if you will. Rice patty. Which is, I know. It's interesting.

I mean, shit, man. I was actually walking through Korea Town, and I came across people who are literally planting, planting rice. Planting something, planting papaya or planting apples. I don't even know. It was probably marijuana if it was in L.A. Were they smoking the rice by any chance? There's a live field that's being planted where you would expect an apartment

building to be. Wow. Okay. So you're in the rice paddy. Said mail comes at you. It's two, three in the morning, midnight. It's like 11.30. Just before midnight, which is also technically known as the witching hour. Okay. Does said assailant come at, I was going to say Brown, but I'll just say Andrew. Does said assailant come at you with knife overhead or underhand? They usually come. Most will present the knife underhand. So in this case, the person came out of the shadows, flanking me on the side.

I was able to identify there was a person there as I was walking through the area. Whoa. And then presented themselves, show the knife, used Pigeon English, because they understood that I was not of the local culture. Pigeon English. So used Pigeon English to basically say it. So this guy's in the middle of the night. He goes, hey.

That's straight pigeon. Okay. My mistake. Sorry. Not up on my languages. Okay. And basically says, you give me what's value.

Give me what you have on you. Give me what's valuable. Wow. And I tell them I don't have anything that's valuable. I'm just crossing through. I have some money in my wallet and that's it. And then they ask me for the money in my wallet. I open my wallet so they can see it.

I throw out the dollar bill or the currency that I have in their currency in front of them. And I put my wallet away. They take the money away. They come forward again. They say, you have more. I say, I don't have more, they come forward again, and then I actually grab the knife hand, and I turn the knife hand so it's not pointing.

I mean, I tell them I don't have any more and I don't want a problem, and then I can feel them pulling away already. And then they pull away, I let go of their knife hand, and they disperse. You're being very gentlemanly with this kind of... You have to be.

Because if you play out the alternate role, right? If I don't give them the money, if I escalate the scene, I don't know if there's more people hiding in more shadows that I haven't seen. even if there are or if there aren't. If the assailant attacks me and I dispatch the assailant,

hurt the assailant, the assailant starts screaming, that's going to cause people to look. When people look, you got a problem because now what they see is you, a foreigner, hurting one of them,

a local. Well, let's not say a foreigner. Let's say a brown. And we can't have that. It's just, I don't really ever. hear a brown. That's just making me laugh somehow. But please refer to me as ugly pinkish pasty eggshelled salamander white. Well, this is fascinating because, you know, there's, I got to tell you,

there's something more disarming, like when you get into a millet, as they call it, when two people collide violently and it becomes sort of like a cat fight like you know there's everything first flying and go like that's frightening but I got to tell you Andrew there's something more disarming is when a guy's calm and cool and collective goes here's my wallet here's what I have I'll give you this I won't get and let's uh and then people are just like this guy's too cool I'm robbing him right now And this guy's like totally like, he's making it almost like business-like. Yeah, we call it de-escalation. Yeah, it's really, it's very effective and it's almost scarier than toxic energy coming at you.

Yeah, and we want to avoid escalation because escalation makes things unpredictable. De-escalation keeps things where you're the one in control. Because you know what your next step is, but you're not presenting the predictable outcome to the aggressor. When the aggressor sees what they predict to be true, then they stay focused on their agenda or they'll escalate their agenda. But if they are de-escalated immediately, if it's unpredictable what they're stepping into,

they make mistakes. This is going to seem sort of metaphysical, and I don't know if this has this ever happened. Have you ever been on an escalator, been assaulted, and you had to de-escalate? No, but I do like the idea of pinky hippie, as kind of the new description of your skin tone.

Of me? Of my people? My metaphysical question coming from my pink eggshell world. If you're ever in a mall on an escalator. Right? That's sort of deep. It's almost sort of niche or whatever his stupid name is. There's a book there. Yeah. There's a book there and there's...

How did de-escalate on an escalator? My journey through life on the rice, patty. 499 There's an audience Yeah Okay I want to ratchet it up a bit now Because this is a unique situation

For me to have someone like you And again You can go as deep as you want Okay And this is a tough question But I would ask it if you were law enforcement But have you ever had to Shoot someone

Kill another human being I have had to kill but I have not had to shoot. I have not had to shoot. So you've killed another human? Well, most CIA officers who get to my level before they leave have been engaged in some sort of kinetic, lethal process. Wow.

Yeah. So you just, so it's true to you, Andrew, have killed another human. So I want you to, I understand what you're getting at. Yeah. And the technical answer to what you're saying is yes. Yes. But there's nuance to it. There's nuance to it because CIA doesn't want us to carry the psychological impact of being responsible for the death of another person. Right. So generally speaking, a kinetic strike involves a team or a group of people. So no one person carries a responsibility. Okay. That's to sort of spread out the psychology of grief and guilt and all that stuff.

And then on top of that, there's a hierarchy approval process. So you're identifying a kinetic target or you're saying, a kinetic target is an opportunity. You run it up a chain of command. The chain of command comes down and then gives you the order to strike. And then you as the team work together to execute the strike. Wow. And then there's a difference between intimate and- Excuse me. There's a difference between intimate and non-intimate killing. So intimate killing is what you see in the movies. It's one person with one person stabbing, punching. It's the cat fight. I love how it's called intimate too. Because it's it kind of binds the two people together. It's very hard for a person to get past that.

But then you have non-intimate killing. Non-intimate killing is done at a distance. So a drone strike where you're dropping multiple bombs or multiple drone strikes or sabotage operations or when you give the green light to the Navy SEAL team that goes in, all of those are versions of non-intimate killing. And it's non-intimate for everybody involved. So even the SEAL team operative who's pulling the trigger feels a sense of distancing from the target.

when they kill. The challenge with killing is actually not the process of killing. It's the immediate aftermath because people don't die right away. So when someone is shot, they will cry out in pain, they will moan, they will gurgle.

There are things that will happen after the permission of the non-inimic killing is executed, and then that's where the real gravity comes from the killing. How odd is it to hear you've been granted permission to kill another living human being.

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It's heavy, but you also in the moment, in the moment you don't see them as human beings. You see them as targets. You have to make that separation. What's the closest proximity to said target? Were you on a rooftop from 200 yards? Were you 10 feet away? I was miles away in a command center. Okay. I was miles away in a command center. Yeah. I was the one that was making the final call on a package that was set for kinetic strike. Kinetic, just for them. I know what it means. They don't. Yeah, kinetic means...

The purples, the grays, even some of the plaid people don't know what that means. We know what it means. Pinky and Brownie. We got it, but not them. But kinetic means any time that you are sending some sort of connect... some sort of physical device intended to kill. Wow. So that's what kinetic is. So kinetic can be bullets, it can be rockets, it can be missiles. It can be rockets and missiles that don't explode

that just kind of cut or filet. Filet. Yeah, that's a terrible death, death by filet. Yeah, especially if you're a chick. Or a grouper. Grupper, yeah. Wow. The scenario we're talking about right now,

can you tell us what that specific mission was, like who you were striking out at and how you terminated? Yeah, so I can tell you some elements that still keep it classified. Yeah. I was part of a command group that was determining how to use air assets. Air assets mean airborne kinetic vehicles. In our case, drones. Drones, I was going to say that, yeah.

It was during the global war on terror, we were focused on an area of active hostilities. So the areas of active hostility during the world, during that global war on terror, where Afghanistan, Iraq, we had identified a base where terrorist activity was actively being planned for imminent threats against Americans. What part of the world was this? Or can you say? It was Afghanistan, Iraq area. That's what I can say. Don't name any streets.

No rice paddy specifically. Yeah. It wasn't right there by the... the light bulb shop, okay. And we had a team of paramilitary on the ground. Paramilitary comprised multiple tier one and tier two teams that were secunded, that were assigned to the agency to support the operation. And their job was to basically clean up whatever the air assets couldn't destroy

on the first strike, and then to physically remove any intelligence that would help inform us as to next steps and other cells that were operating in the area. So we had real-time surveillance through thermal imaging on the actual location. We were able to have positive ID through the ground teams that the targets of interest were in the location when we wanted to strike. And then all of the kind of different people say, you know, we're ready to go, ready to go, ready to go, ready to go. And then I had the authority to say go or no go. Yeah. And then we went.

Did you press the... No, there's somebody else. There's somebody who... You just give the green light. Correct. There's actually like an E3, E4, a very low-level military person whose job it is to actually press the button and say... So it's from the distance. That distance sort of gives you a little bit of that video game sensation. Right. It's very movie-like because you've got multiple screens on different surveillance videos. You can actually see the screen that has your own team highlighted on it so that you can see their locations.

And then you've got the thermals that show the people in the building and you can see their location. and it's very, very movie-like. Knowing what you know and living through the experiences you have had, could you, if instructed, could you do the one-on-one if you were... Yeah, and what's wild is I think anybody could. Anybody could if the circumstances leading up

to the moment of intimate killing are required, or if they're met. Because it's shockingly, shockingly easy to turn a human being. something other than a human being, into a villain, into somebody who's a threat, into an animal, into a monster. It's really shockingly easy to dehumanize a person and turn them into something else. Let me try a little experiment so I can test your feelings.

I want you to look through this and describe how you feel looking through the crosshairs. If it triggers any memory, and why are you looking at me? by the way. I'm actually just aiming it towards your dudes over there. Okay. Towards Goldies. Yeah. Goldies.

See if it conjures up any type of feeling? No. No, just that we need to tune this scope. We do? It's out of focus? It's not quite made for this close distance. I can see. You've looked through a sniper's scope?

Could you shoot a sniper's rifle? I've shot a sniper's rifle. Wow. Not in the field at a person, but I've trained on a sniper's rifle. Well, you've got it. Their scopes are incredible. While you've got it, would you mind just looking through it one more time and let me know how my skin's doing? Let's see.

I can see. I can see. Yeah, you look good. Maybe there's a little bit of pinkiness going on. Too much time in the sun. Need some moisturizer? Okay. Well, you didn't have any psychological, like.

tick or any type of adverse reaction to, you know, this could be a trigger. For some people. Yeah. For you handled it very calmly. That's the goal. And I'm wondering, looking in your eyes, if inside things aren't, this didn't, is everything okay? Everything is okay. Andrew?

That laugh. That nervous little laugh is a tell. I just don't know what to tell you. That's a deflection. I don't know. I don't. There we go. What do you see? Besides where I missed my clothes shave. Interesting. You see people through crosshairs. It's still just crosshairs. Yeah. Wow. Isn't it? It's just, it's such a weird world that we live in where human beings, me and you and our families, our uncles, our sisters, our brothers, we could be the targets of death and hatred and war. And it's a a world where you've been immersed in the CIA and all the bureaucracy and all the government red tape, is there ever a scenario where Andrew goes, this is just sort of like a game,

like a bunch of kids playing a very dangerous adult game. Does it ever feel like that? Or is it always very crystal clear that I'm on a mission? No, no, it's not crystal clear that I'm on a mission all the time. Because what happens, especially as you gain experience in the field, is you start to realize that there is no adult, because you said kids in an adult game, there are no adults. We never really mature past late high school, early college. Right?

We're just stuck there. We're stuck at that shitty kind of 19 to 22 year old window where you're always self-conscious, you always want to be bigger than you really are, you always worry about what people are thinking about you, and you just get older and grayer. and maybe more rich and more powerful but you're stuck there. And we're all stuck there

all the time. The only people who aren't stuck there are the people who are less than 19 years old and don't know that they're getting ready to go into that logger jam. Wow. And everything that we do from stealing secrets to bombing bases with and enriching uranium, everything we do is

to further try to escape that sticky, shitty feeling of not being sufficient enough and hoping that people will like us. Yeah, it just if you look at our planet this sphere is this beautiful garden of paradise and you look at all the creatures and all the inhabitants and the millions of species and then here's us at the top of the chain apparently the most intelligent and we're playing all these chess games with human lives and geography

and power and money and position and it just feels like why why do we do all this stuff why do people have to die? Why do the power shifts have to happen? It's just, and it's almost like, it's almost like an elevated school yard. And you start to realize that we are just animals. Yeah. We're animals with fancier shit. That's it. Yeah. Because what do animals have? They have to hunt. They have to fight. They have these power struggles. They have to, they have to compete constantly for resources, whether they're competing constantly for berry bushes or for rabbit hovels, whatever. But they're always fighting

instead of trying to find a way to grow something more. And we just fall into that category of animals. We're not like plants that just grow and spread and thrive, and then you have some plants that just get starved of light just because other plants next door are bigger. Yeah. We're not fixtures like rock that just move and shift and shape the world along with us.

It really shows us how impermanent and insignificant we are as human beings, even though as we look at ourselves, we think the opposite. We think we're so significant, and we think that we're here forever. Do you like what you see as a person who's had to, shall I say, be a real student of humanity, having to study? I'll share this with you. I used to work for the police way back when. and just at the low capacity I was at, I literally worked in the mailroom, but I had to circulate throughout the whole police force from the chief of police office down to the morgue.

And the amount of materials I was exposed to, the darkness, the death, the cruelty, the evil, dare I say, that the dark side of the human underbelly that's there, that again we kind of, kind of see portrayed in movies. I got to see it with all the, all the Hollywood trimmings peeled away. And I know that you've probably seen the darkest underbelly of humanity. Does that make you not like humans? Does that make you sympathetic? Does that make you wonder why? How does that make you feel? I have a, I have a mixed relationship with human beings. Yeah. Right? I, I was just having a conversation with a good friend of mine who doesn't live far from here, actually, recently. And we were joking because my friend is an introvert. I'm an extrovert, meaning he likes to be alone.

I like to be around people. And he was saying that he's really awkward around people, but inside he really, really likes people. He's like, I really like people, but they want them around people. I act awkward, and then they don't want to be around me, so then I feel lonely. It was kind of that situation. Tough, yeah. And I looked at him and I was like, I actually hate people. and that's my generic kind of over-generalized answer.

I don't like people. Yeah, yeah. But I like to be around people because they give me energy. So I think the more nuanced answer is I don't like the vast majority of people. Yeah. The vast majority of people are either ignorance or obnoxious or self-centered or violent or distracted or disagreeable in some way. The vast majority of people. There are a few people who are really enriching to be around.

Yeah. But here's the thing that makes it a really mixed relationship for me. I love the things that people produce, the art, the music, the thoughts, the poetry, the stories, the imagination. You don't get that anywhere. So if we didn't have people, you wouldn't have any of that. Yeah, the beautiful stuff. And that beautiful stuff comes from a very small amount of people. And what's fascinating to me is oftentimes the people who create the most incredible things, it's born out of darkness. So you need that dark side of people. people to inspire the creativity that creates these incredible and enlightening pieces of everything from from wall paintings to music to movies to storybooks so it's it's tricky man i wouldn't actually want to never meet people i'd want to meet the right people but i still need all the other people to exist because even if all those other people are doing is making life shitty for a few artists yeah we need the artists you know what i would submit to you and this is i don't know if you'd agree with this or not, but I think all people have the beautiful stuff in them and a lot of people don't know they have it in them or they've never tapped into it or they haven't found it or they can't

access it. Or maybe just because of their life, maybe they were born into working in a car plant or maybe their parents were farmers and they got stuck riding the tractor their whole life. But I think everyone intrinsically has the beautiful stuff in them, but maybe they don't don't always have the avenue to let it out, which is sad. I would agree with that. Yeah. I don't think we all have equal amounts of beautiful stuff in us. I mean, Gandhi certainly probably has a lot more beautiful stuff in them than, let's say, Putin has, you know?

But I appreciate your honesty, because that's sort of a heavy question. And it's a not fun way to kind of roll through your day either. Yeah. You already know that you're going to meet 150 faces and you're not going to like 142 of them. And hopefully the last eight aren't completely obnoxious. It's not a super positive way to go through life. But that's also why when I see like the life that you've built for yourself up on this hill. Yeah.

There's a part of me that's like, this is the way to do it. You only meet the people you want to meet. Right. You've got this incredible view around you all the time. You watch the city change. Yeah. But the city is going to change. Like you said, L.A. doesn't change very much.

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It's kind of a beautiful place to be. Yeah. I'm getting the sense that you're a real nature guy. Well, I... You find your solace in nature and more... Do you find a strong connection in nature? Absolutely. There's a connection.

That's the right word. Yeah. Connection is the right word because I, again, I can't imagine being just in nature. I can't even spend a whole day just in nature. Camping is very difficult for me. It is. Yeah, it's like me and... all these trees and a couple of animals that I can't see and some insects biting my ass.

That's pretty much it. Yeah. I need people of some sort, at least people passing through or hiking through or at the campsite next to me and they're laughing and they're, you know, they've got kids running around. Like, that's nice for me. Yeah. I can't imagine being totally alone. And there are some people who can handle that very well.

Yeah, I can handle that. I really can't. I'm good at that too. But so it sounds like there's been a bit of a disappointment in the human race for you. but is there a apex where it's more of a bright future? Is there a world where you see humanity striving and climbing to something that is more enlightening to you? The short answer is no.

I don't see the human, I don't see humanity climbing and striving as a group for much of anything. And I will also say that the disappointment hasn't always been. there. The disappointment came from my experience with CIA. That's what I mean. You were exposed to that dark underbelly. And and the contrary, what we consider to be the light as well. Yeah. Right? Like you, you consider the light to be the things that are fighting the dark. Yeah. But the problem is the people who are fighting the dark are fighting it with darkness. Yeah, that's right. So it's compacted darkness on darkness, which makes the darkness even darker. Correct. And then,

And then you ask yourself, well, then where is the light actually? And then you realize that the light is just this justification of being dark. And then it's all fucked up because then you're like, hold on a second. If I kill the criminal that I captured and put on trial, somehow I'm making the world a better place. And if I release a criminal because they're going to lead me to a bigger, badder criminal, that's somehow using the light. It doesn't make sense. It's just whether you look at the church

or whether you look at the court system or whether you look at, you know, even the house of an average child, well, let me get this straight. You're lying to your children about why they have to brush their teeth tonight to get them to brush their teeth tonight because you want them to learn oral hygiene for the future.

Is that really the light? Because you're still using lies and manipulation to get your kids to do what you want them to do. It's just, it's, it becomes very transparent and you start to realize we don't really do anything good. We don't do anything good just to do something good. We all want to do the right thing.

Yeah. But we also know that if we actually do the right thing, we're going to get screwed. We're going to fall back. We're going to lose an advantage. We're going to spend resources and not gain resources. And it becomes this very binary experience. I'm curious. This is very fascinating to me because I've seen the dark underbelly of people of humanity

in a very dark way. Like I was only there for a bit, but I saw dead bodies. being rolled in of young teenage girls that were raped and murdered. I've seen corpses with ropes around their necks. I've seen a lot. I don't talk about it very often, but I saw a lot. And it's just fascinating that I've seen that dark underbelly. I found a way to rise up over it somehow.

I'm not sure exactly how, but there's a positive light and an energy that I think I open myself up to, to allow, so that I could survive seeing all that. Do you, does that make you have hope for humanity? Or does that just help you cope with the dark? It makes me have hope for everything, for the biggest eternity. It makes me, it's almost like that picture behind you. It's like light that shines out because what I want to submit to you, because I can feel that you have a bit of a, that darkness you speak of. Sometimes it can creep up and slide over you and take you even when you're not a dark person. And because you have this bit of an outlook on people, I want to say to you that don't let the darkness slide on top of you. Thank you. And

you've seen the shit show. You've seen some really dark stuff. And I can sense you're a good caring, deep person, and I can almost feel a little bit of the darkness has got on you, like almost like a film, like a dirt. And I would submit to you, don't let it, even though you've seen it, reject it and push it back. And even though it's hard, try to look for the light and let it on you. Yeah, I mean, I appreciate what you're saying, and I appreciate the concern. I would characterize it a little differently, only to say that to pursue the light takes effort. Yeah.

So in my ways, I am absolutely putting effort into keeping, like you said, the dirt off. Yeah. Right? And we all have to put effort into keeping the dirt off. Yeah. Or else we're going to be consumed. Yeah, that's right. Because it keeps coming at you.

It reminds me of the never-ending story. Yeah. If you remember that from when we were kids. And our attacks, the horse, that gets sucked into that. of sadness or something like that, right? Yeah, that's a good analogy. And that's exactly what it's like. And that's, in my experience, that is exactly what the world is like.

If you don't actively try to fight it, you're just going to get sucked in. And that's why you see so many people who have been consumed who are just angry and bitter and constantly the victim and constantly feel like they have no control and they just end their life as bitter, lonely people. Yeah. Until the final weeks or days when they find something. kind of hope at the end of the tunnel, and then they want to recant all their ways, whatever. But I think the effort looks different for all people.

There are some people where the effort looks like scripture or prayer, and then there's other people who the effort looks like escape. I am an escape type of person. I need to find my house on a hill to borrow what you have in your backyard. That's what I'm looking for. So the effort I'm putting into it is how do I escape by finding my paradise, if you will. Yeah. And there's plenty of paradise to choose from because in contrast to humans, the fucking globe, the world is an amazing place. Yeah.

And, you know, there's incredible places where humanity meets nature and it's just gorgeous. If you've ever overlooked Hong Kong, what incredible, incredible sites. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And if you've ever had a chance to like see Vancouver Island from a boat, incredible place. Like there's just, there's all these locations. Niagara Falls. There's, there's Chicago for crying out loud. There's locations right here in LA where you can see the two come together and it's a beautiful thing to see without being, without drowning in the ocean of the dark people. Yeah. And I will submit this to the light is also strip away the human stuff. The light is also, it's so obvious it's the light. You go outside and there's the golden light and just let that land on you and inhabit you and crawl on you. And it's a very simple matter of energy and visualization. You know, it's beautiful.

But every day just let that land on you and settle like a dust. And I think it'll, I think you'll feel it. It's funny that you say that because the last two nights, we're staying in Koreatown. I'm in L.A. with our family. We're on a tour promoting our book. Yeah, we've got to talk about that too. And every night from our Koreatown apartment,

we have a west-facing view. And then the pink sunset comes. comes up at night, and the tall palm trees of L.A. that are going in that westerly direction, and it just, it's a beacon. It just calls to you. It just tells you every night at like 630 or 7 at night, come outside and take a walk, and you walk these streets lined with these gigantic palm trees on a purple and pink sunset. Yeah, that's the light. It's gorgeous. You can feel it. Yeah. And by the way, that pink that you're seeing, that was me on my balcony drying off after a shower.

I mean, this is a fancy. You mentioned your book. I was going to mention your book earlier, but we got into it so good. I'm really enjoying this, by the way. Thank you for being so open and honest, and it's wonderful. Tell us about the book.

I want to tell us about that. Absolutely. My wife and I co-wrote a memoir about our time at CIA together. My wife is a former clandestine. Oh, wow. Okay. former clandescent CIA officer. We met, we married, we had her first child at CIA. And in our

memoir, we tell the story about how we were chosen for a very unique mission to operate together. Wow. So we actually went undercover together and as a tandem operating couple is what the term is. You're like a real-life Mr. Mrs. Smith. And that's a very, that's a common connection that people make. Even though it's a very uncommon process at CIA, they don't often put husband and wife teams together. And you don't have like, you don't have 19 machine guns in the bottom of your fridge. Correct. Okay. Not quite like that.

But we were put on an operation together to carry out a high-stakes mission against a major American adversary. And it was tied to the fact that there was a mole that had been identified inside CIA. So CIA was dealing with a mole back at home. They needed a way to create new operations that the mole didn't have access to. And that's what made them look to do that to hire, to bring Ji and I in, my wife into. What's your name? Jehi. J-I-H-I. That's a beautiful name. Yeah, it's a Japanese name.

Imagine if her last name was Joe. That's Jehi Joe. Jehi Joe. Gehai Joe. Yeah. Beautiful. Good night, G-I-Joe. Yeah. Good night, Optimus Prime. I don't know how you roll play, but whatever. It doesn't work very well for voice to text because when I talk to my phone and I say her name,

it comes across with autocorrect as jihad. Yeah, right. Yeah, you're on the no watch list. You're on the no fly list. Yeah, yeah. Well, what an interesting place to meet your partner, too. When you went into this world, did you ever go into it thinking, I hope there's some hot chicks here? I went into the world absolutely hoping for hot chicks, but I didn't think they'd be at the agency. At the agency, yeah. I thought it was going to be, like, you know, a bunch of kind of bullish, hardworking, just dunces like me. You thought you'd be like bending a hot rush.

and spy over the Berlin Wall in the middle of the night giving her the old gorky park something other than a beautiful brilliant person that I work with I mean that's amazing I don't know if I was just sore sighted or what but then I get to the agency and in reality CIA has

all kinds of different people so it certainly has that like bullish stubborn I don't want to be around you kind of girl but it also has tons of brilliant girls and beautiful girls and tall girls and short girls and girls that are on the autistic spectrum and girls that are like

really and boys along the same path so it's there's autistic CIA agents there's a lot of them uh do I shoot um do I know I'm like I'm a good driver I actually yeah I can't shoot them and that's exactly why you have autistic people at the CIA because once you tell an autistic person

hey what you have to do is go out there and hit this shot from 2,000 yards they're obsessed and they're like okay here we go yeah they're good and then they come back and like I hit the shot and boom well let's no remorse Yeah, they're like, now I'm going to go watch Judge Wapner. So given this environment where obviously your wife sounds very attractive and smart,

and was there competition for her admiration at the CIA? Were you the only guy that kind of got attracted? Were there other guys going, oh, you know? Yeah, there was definitely competition for my wife. Yeah, and you got her. And I was, well, I was fortunate because my wife is a very jealous person. Old rice patty brownie got her, yeah. But yeah, my wife was a very jealous person.

So she was less interested in the fact that I was pursuing her and more interested in the competition that was coming from other CIA officers to me. So then she triggered her desire to, like, win. Oh, so you had more haughty CIA haughties coming on to you. It didn't even matter because my wife didn't like anybody else flirting with me. So even if I didn't have a haughty floating with me, she still wanted to win. So it was kind of... Oh, I love it. Yeah, everybody, nobody ever really.

wishes for the fat chick to hit on them. Yeah. But then when the fat chick hitting on you, it motivates the hot chick to talk to you, then you're like, hey, let's go whaling. Whaling? Or wait, what was that? That's amazing.

And so where can people get your book and tell us more about what it chronicles within the book? Absolutely. So the book is called Shadow Cell. You'll find it worldwide. You'll find it in bookstores. You'll find it online. It's all the major distributors.

Shadow Cell is the story of my wife and I and how we built a new type of operation in order to create success against a major adversary at the same time that CIA was being penetrated by a mole. So that book chronicles how we built the operation, how we structured an architect of the operation. It's got lots of tradecraft, and it's also got lots of just rich human stories

because we were part of a team that we built to make it all happen. And it was one of the things that's really striking to me is it was, it took us three years to get this book approved by CIA. Wow. Because they really didn't want us to tell a story about contemporary tradecraft in a contemporary world against the current threat. So they tried to reject it as much as possible. Oh, that's got to be tough. And the only reason that we got it through is because we had a phenomenal attorney who recommended that we leverage our First Amendment at the right time.

Wow. And when we did that, CIA had to cave. So the book is the first CIA book to be approved by CIA that they really didn't want to have published ever. Congrats. Thank you. That takes some willpower. And it takes a little bit of kind of just risk-taking too.

Yeah. We didn't know how they would react. We still don't know how they're going to react. Frankly, we're a little bit nervous what's going to happen when the book does hit the bookshelf. And then the current administration takes an interest or doesn't take an interest? And what's that phone call going to look at?

Well, it's a powerful entity. So you could think, hey, we got a book out. We did it. Ha, ha, how we got... But it's the CIA. So then you've got to go, well, are they going to be pushing any little levers in the background? What happened to my car? Why did my bank accounts?

You know, it's an interesting, crafty world. You mentioned there was a mole. I don't want to give away the book, but was the mole caught, or would that give away the book? So the mole was actually not caught during the time frame of the book. Okay. We talk about all that in the book. Okay. Ultimately, the United States law enforcement and FBI was able to track down the mole.

What's exciting is that a big part of why they were able to track down the mole was because of the operation that we built. The mole ended up making mistakes and exposing themselves to investigation because they were trying to crack our operation, which was the whole purpose behind shadow cell. We were a cell of operators that were supposed to be operating independently from CIA. And that reason was so that the mole would realize they had to collect on us and they had to change their behavior to collect on us. And that's how they were captured. What a chess game.

You know, it's interesting because I think most of us growing up, maybe yourself included, we held the CIA and all these spy agencies in such high esteem. We assume they're working for us, the people. And then, you know, especially recently, and it's probably nothing new to history, you find out that inside these entities that are supposed to be the pinnacle of security for its people, you find out that there's rogue players, you find out there's moles, you find out that there's people at high levels of power that are using the power that they have against the people they're supposed to be protecting. and I find that very discouraging and disappointing that we can't have ultimate 100% pure faith in these agencies. Does that bother you? No, not anymore.

But was it a disappointment when you realized that everything wasn't as pure as it should be? Oh, absolutely. I'll never forget the moment when it clicked for me. I was in my second tour. I was overseas. I was carrying out an operation. and then the operation was immediately defunded because priorities, intelligence collection priorities,

shifted almost 180 degrees, literally overnight. And it was because a new congressman had been added to the intelligence subcommittee, and with that new congressman, they had the power to change the collection priorities that we were on. And in that moment, I realized, if everything can change because one policymaker is added to a panel of policymakers,

what the hell are we doing? We're certainly not serving the American people. Yeah. Because I signed up for CIA to protect my mother and my sister and my kids. Very noble. Yeah, like most of us. Yeah.

We sign up because we think we're going to make a difference. And then you realize that you're shifted in different directions according to dollars, and those dollars are handled by an intelligence committee that's a bunch of elected congresspeople, and those elected congresspeople are elected by 30 to 20 to 30% of their voting base. Yeah.

How the fuck does any of that make sense? And then you realize that these subcommittees are elected or voluntary and elected by other Congress people who don't want to be on that subcommittee. So who are we serving? And then what you do is at the whim of these people that aren't as well-versed or as well-seasoned at your very immersive world. And you realize that we are sold on the idea that these intelligence agencies are there to serve the people.

But they're not. They're there to serve the goals of the government. The national security priorities, not the people. And it's very clearly stated everywhere. Nobody faked it. It's just that the narrative that we've adopted internally is that they're there to protect us. No, they're there to protect national security priorities. National security priorities are there to ensure the ongoing survival of the government,

not the people. Yeah. Man, fascinating. fascinating. I could go on for five more hours with you with all this stuff. I'm going to start to bring it down to a close. I want to do two more things. The first one's a quick little test. Because I know you guys are deeply trained in so many levels of psychology, of awareness, of perception. So I wanted to see if you'll indulge me here. And I don't know if you're good at this or not, but you might be. I'm going to tell you four. things and one of them will be real and three will be a lie. Okay. Can I ask a few questions in advance? Yes. And I want to just see if with your training, with your perception, and if you don't get it, no biggie. But I want to see, I thought it'd be interesting to see if you actually

nailed the one that's actually not a lie. So you put on your glasses because I'm guessing you're about to read the four things. Have you rehearsed the four things? No. Have you read them before? No. So they're brand new. They're brand new. I wrote them just for. you. So you wrote them, though. Yeah, I wrote them out. Yeah. And then are they personal experiences or are they general facts?

Personal. So these are four personal experiences. Three of them are true. One of them is not true. You wrote them and they all apply to you. No, one of them is true. Oh. Three of them are not.

So my job is to find the one that is true. Yes. Okay. Okay. I'll do my best. Yeah. And it's not to make you look bad. I just want to see if it would be interesting to see if you were able to pick up on it

and then I could ask you why. Okay. All right, so in no particular order, see if I'm lying. Okay. I once stole my grandmother's wallet. Okay. I once ate meat off the ground like a wild animal. Okay.

I once broke a dog's leg with a baseball bat. Okay. I once stuck my finger up my dead uncle's nose at his funeral parlor showing. Okay. one of those is true true the other three are false yeah run them through again yep i once stole my grandmother's wallet okay i once ate meat off the ground like a wild animal okay i once broke a dog's leg with a baseball bat and i once stuck my finger up my dead uncle's nose at his funeral parlor showing okay it's it's difficult all of your readings are the same i'm going to go with i think

that you stole your grandmother's wallet. If there was a second, I would say it was that you broke an animal's leg with a baseball bat. My read on this exercise so far is that one of the two of those is the true one and that the grandmother's wallet

is the most true. Hmm. All right. Do you want the answer? Of course. I'm, and again, this was just a wacky test. There's no way you could know.

I once ate meat off the ground. like a wild animal. So there's a number of challenges to this kind of exercise, right? Yes, it's tough. It's rehearsed, and that's difficult because you wrote it, you created it. So in the process of creating these lies,

you had premeditation before you created them. Right. Which takes away a lot of the physiological tells. And then the second is that as you crafted these statements, you crafted them in private, you crafted them with an intention. It's all very skilled liars and professional liars, do what you just did, because we understand there's an advantage to having the time to craft a lie in advance.

When you talked about your grandmother's stealing a grandmother's wallet, if that in general, I chose that because it was the least detailed and the shortest amount of words. Generally, when people tell the truth, they're telling the truth in stated facts in the shortest amount of words. And when people add more words, it's usually a sign of lying. But that's assuming that they haven't had a chance to premeditate their lie, that's assuming they haven't had a chance to craft it. It's when you're talking to them in real time. You know, it's interesting. In reality, I did steal a $10 bill from my grandmother's purse when I was a little kid. So maybe that's something you picked up, but the true one, and by the way, just so you know, because I know you're skilled and you're

trained, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I was doing my very best based on the data that I know from movies and news stories, I was doing my very best to stay kind of neutral. Correct. And even one, I did a little fake laugh on one of the lies thinking, oh, if I do this little laugh, he'll pick up on that and think,

but that was the funeral one, which you didn't go for. So I was sort of, we were sort of mind, I don't want to say fucking, but we were mind sexual intercourseing each other, and it felt really, good. I want to do it again. I was just about to, no, I'm kidding. But you did the right thing.

Yeah. You neutralized your nonverbal communication. You also had a very consistent verbal communication. Yeah. You presented them all on the same pace at the same tempo. I did that by design. The only thing that was different is the length. So what you did is you limited the anchor points that I could use to determine what was truthful and what wasn't. And by limiting those anchor points, you gave yourself more opportunity to get the lies through and to cover the fact. I'm a CIA guy. It was very well executed, but that's one of the reasons why. Well, you know what they say about us stupid guys?

Just for context, when I was in college, I'm very close to nature. I love nature, and I've done some great things with nature. I used to be a forest ranger way back when I was younger. And in college, one time in the winter, I went shopping and I bought like this pre-packaged corn beef in a thing. And it was late at night, it was a full moon, and there was about this much snow on the ground. And I was just like, I just want to know what it's like to eat like a wolf. And I literally opened the back door, threw the meat out onto the snow and got down on all fours and just like, and I was like shaking it around and like an idiot, like a complete.

But I wanted to feel that experience for some reason. And I was like, and I was eating it, and I swear to God, as God, I looked up and the neighbors were standing on their porch going, and I told my buddies, and they go, what's wrong with you? But this is the stuff I do. So many stories I'll never tell, but you got one out of me. Well, that is something that is so incredibly human. The idea of experimenting in private with things that you would imagine people would think is crazy.

Yeah. We all do that, whether that's the thing. the person who rips wings off of an insect or smells their own toenails? There are people who do this stuff all over the place. And there's nothing inherently wrong with the experimentation, but we all feel a little bit guilty about it because of the social norms.

This is one of them. Well, let me get to our final segment, buddy. Andrew, this has been great. This is called Words from a Wooden Shoe. It's an authentic Dutch clog. Random words inside. Reach in, pull one out, and see if it triggers a story from your

journey, someone you know, something that happened to you? This is a fun idea. Yeah, and see if it gets something out of it. What's your words? My word is dating app. Dating app. Okay. So this actually triggers a couple of things from me. Here we go. So I've never used a dating app. Okay. Because I was married before dating apps really took off. Good, yeah. But I've had many, many friends who have had to use them. I've had friends at CIA who have been through divorces and then had to learn how to use dating apps. Oh, wow. And that's kind of, that's what really comes to mind. So CIA, it's very particular about your digital footprint.

Right. So your Facebook account or your Instagram account or your LinkedIn account. They're very, very particular about what you put up there. I didn't think of that, yeah. And then you've got all these single people in an age of dating apps. So then CIA had to find their way through policies

about what you could or couldn't have on a dating app, what dating app you could or couldn't use, what profile pictures you could or couldn't use, what locations you could or couldn't share. And it became this very complicated thing. And I had a really good friend who went through a divorce very young. So he was about 25 when he got married,

divorced by 27. And that was right in the prime dating app kind of time frame. And he was busy and successful at CIA, but he wanted to find a future partner. So he's on these dating apps and trying to manage his own security on the dating app by changing the locations, using VPNs whenever he logged into it.

So sometimes he said he was in the Philippines and sometimes he said he was in Egypt. Yeah. And it was just such a funny experience because he put so much work into the app and I was like, why don't you just go down the street? You're in Washington, D.C. Like, just go buy a girl a drink

because this app seems to be a shit ton of work and who's going to respond to your profile when it's... Well, imagine the girl going on the date with that guy and she's like, wait, I thought you said yesterday you were from Korea. Yeah. What do you mean? I thought your car was green the other week.

Like, everything just keeps changing. Yeah, and he's taking pictures on these, intentionally taking pictures of himself against these, like, non-identifiable locations. Oh, wow. So you're just kind of like, dude, everything about you seems like a catfish right now. Is there enough people in the CIA that the CIA could create their own app? And the trick is you go into the app store and there's nothing there? I mean, that could be...

I hope somebody at the agency hears that, because it's kind of a genius idea. Thank you. Inside of the agency, you could call it something like, I don't know, like Marble Time or something. There's CI app. C-I-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-P? Hello. Something along those? The agency insider?

I don't know. But there's enough dating that happens inside, we call it intra-mural dating, inside the alumni. There's enough dating that happens in there that I bet the app would actually work. Well, before we go, Andrew, my CIA guy,

I did something, this whole podcast, and I want to see if you picked up on it. Okay. Maybe you haven't. but it was in play before you even sat down. I've had a bug on me this whole time. Okay. Did you pick up on that?

No. Let me pull it out. Buddy, from me to you. Wow. That is special. My bug, yeah. That is special. If you want to use that in the field, be my guess.

Was it on your back? I'm not telling. Excuse me. Pinky doesn't give away his secrets. Nice try. Hey, gang, are you craving more Harland Williams? We'll join our Patreon page at patreon.com backslash Harland Williams. Well, you'll get bonus episodes of the Harland Highway podcast, our special call-in show.

And you can check in with our two goofy dolls, the tender frienders, two guys in their underpants, for a small monthly fee. You get Extra Harland. Hey, everybody, how would you like your very own personal video message from me, yours truly? It's your birthday, it's your anniversary, it's your graduation, or you just want me to make you laugh. You get to pick the topic, you want me to discuss, give me some talking points, and off we go. You can get it for yourself or get it for a friend. It's super easy and fun. Just go to the Cameo app on your phone or to Cameo.com.

and I record a custom video made just for you or your loved one. Your very own personalized Harland. Andrew, what a pleasure, my guy. Before we go, take this moment to please tell the audience where they can find you on social media, plug your book, give them any information where they can or can't find you. Absolutely.

And let it rip, my guy. You can always find me and everything that we teach at Everyday Spy, at Everyday Spy, at Everydayspy.com. My book Shadow Cell is available on every platform you can imagine anywhere where books are sold. Shadow Cell, C-E-L-L-Sel.

And then you can find me on social media at Everyday Spy, and of course you can always find me on YouTube at my channel, Andrew Bustamante. Well, folks, if it's half as interesting as what we went through here today, which was just fascinating to talk to you, and there's so much more,

maybe you'll come back and we'll flip some more stones over. You're going to love the book, get the book, tell your friends about the book, and you better get it because you never know where Andrew's going to be. You could look up and he could be standing outside your window, the CIA. With a bug. With a bug. He's going to bug you. Folks, that's it for today on the Holland Highway podcast.

Thank you for being here. Andrew, thanks so much. And until next time, everybody, chicken chau-main, baby. Your name's really Andrew, right? My name is really Andrew for today. Can I see some ID? I don't have any on me. Good answer.

Thank you. Thank you.