The Highwire with Del Bigtree - HOW TO TURN DEBATE INTO DIALOGUE

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Carrie Bigford of Texans for Vaccine Choice unpacks how to talk about medical freedom without blowing up relationships. Drawing on her mental-health background, Carrie walks through her “prepare, connect, inform, allow” framework and explains why tone, body language, and genuine curiosity matter more than “perfect facts” when you’re trying to change hearts and minds. Get a HighWire exclusive promo code to join the online course on effective outreach for these important tools to make a difference.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-highwire-with-del-bigtree--3620606/support.

The big question is, how am I going to have that conversation at the Christmas table or the Hanukkah table? We're all going home for the holidays, but you don't want to show up with this shirt, not vaccinated and ready to talk politics. You know, I don't think that's Thanksgiving. I don't think that was the way to do it, but, you know, nice try. Anyway, you know what I mean. This is, these are sensitive topics, but it's the most important thing we're going to do right now because we have a vote that's coming up. We have things. We have an electoral season coming that will decide how much Robert Kennedy Jr. is going to be able to do. How far down the road are we going to get? We're only going to get there if we keep enrolling more and more people. That's why I want everyone sharing an inconvenient study. Just go there, inconvenient study.com, share the film. But how are you going to talk to your friends and loved ones? Well, I'm joined now by Carrie Bigford. That is exactly what you are doing. You've got a program to help people talk about.

about this somewhat complicated issue. It's not somewhat complicated. It's very complicated. And we absolutely have to talk about it because we won't succeed if we can't have this conversation. And fear is one of the biggest barriers. I know that you've been a long time, just like me. Have you ever had one of your well-intentioned,

thoughtful conversations go unexpectedly sideways with someone? Never. Well. No, but I know a lot of people that have. Absolutely. never we've all right you know especially when you're starting out when I was you know traveling with Vax every once in a while I get myself into a position where I you know brought up a point that then gets used against me in a way I

hadn't imagined you don't do that twice yep but it'd be great if someone had like walked that road and had said you know what here's the mistake I've made you don't want to make that mistake well I failed forward great and through lots of years of bad outreach I developed excellent outreach okay and you my background's mental health so one of the reasons why those conversations can go sideways on a difficult polarizing emotionally driven topic like medical liberty it's actually biological you know humans have a two-story brain okay we have an upstairs brain which is slow deliberative logical it is the

excellent upstairs outreach partner brain for us and then we have a downstairs brain which is fast instinctive and a little bit always running amok based on our feelings okay and the fun thing about the emotional brains moving faster than the the far faster okay and even more fun the emotional brain I'm using. Most people are actually downstairs brain dominant, which is part of the problem. And so we come in trying to bring with logic and the only way to get upstairs, there's no external staircase, the only way to access someone's slow, deliberative, logical, good

outreach partner for us upstairs brain is through the staircase downstairs. So having an awareness of what's happening in your partner and how that communication works neurologically can help you frame. So rather than trying to come in first with with hard logic and facts, which won't work. I've watched, I've said that my own way, which is, go ahead and just bury someone in science and you will get nowhere.

You'll get nowhere. You just watch the door closed immediately. Right. So what we do in our approach is we actually go downstairs up. Okay. So we focus on establishing safety and trust first. We have a four basic steps. I mean, there's a lot of tips and tricks that we have

in our program to help you with communicate. But basically, we've just thought out of four main steps. It is prepare yourself to do the work. And when you're preparing yourself to do the work, you are coming up with some idea of what you're gonna inform with, and you want that something to be not nuanced, objective reality, so not your opinions, beliefs,

choices, ideas, whatever, right? And you also want to make sure that you are coming from a place that is centered enough where you are no longer vulnerable to your partner's emotional wins, right? You need to be able to be centered to stay upstairs in your upstairs brain and not go downstairs and fight okay yeah so first step is you prepare yourself do the work a really good point right because that's where i think we get off right

we start out we go home it's been a big raging fight yep not going to talk to my sister again for another six months yeah and you know you're kicking yourself why did i get emotional i was the one that had the upper hand i had the information yes it was that closed-mindedness that was i was running against and then I got emotional and the thing just went absolutely south. Once people get upset with one another, rational thinking goes out the window. Right. I mean, emotional miscommunication and emotional feelings are the main thing that derail communication. Yeah.

All across the board, all cultures, all humans, everywhere. It's emotions that derail communication. Yeah. So being able to have some way to get yourself regulated emotionally so that you can stay centered enough to be on task and on topic and mainly not vulnerable to your partner. emotional wins is a really big deal and also being able to replace your judgment with curiosity right yeah being able to identify your partner's position and empathize with it and empathy is not agreement empathy is understanding your partner's position it's not agreement yeah and so after you

have prepared yourself because it's a real thing you're doing yeah that you need to prepare for or you will go in flames and get an emotional reaction it's designed for that we're designed for that we are designed for that we are designed to be downstairs very dominant we are designed to have that wild card irrational nature of humans right and we see that everywhere right i experience it's medical liberty all the time yeah and so after you're prepared yourself and you're centered and you're ready to go and you have some idea of what non-nuance objective reality fact you're going to share when that point comes along then you connect with your partner and connection is is really the step that you spend the most time on.

And you never, never inform before you connect. You have to connect and manage that downstairs brain and establish trust and safety first because you have to be invited upstairs. You gotta remember, you're entering someone to downstairs ground floor level. You have to be invited upstairs. You don't just show up upstairs.

You're invited upstairs. And you're invited upstairs by establishing trust, safety, and connection through connection work, okay? Yeah. Absolutely. We have lots and lots. So tell me, so do you have a course I can take? How does it like how does this work?

Because I look, I think this is really super important. Again, something I wish I'd had the time to develop some teaching curriculum. I wish I'd had me 25 years ago. But you've done it. And so where do people go? How do they connect with this? Because look, we've got, you know,

three weeks right now to go get ourselves prepared for what I think is going to be, oh, here we go. I guess it's up right there, Texans for Vaccine Choice. But I can click on the promo code. So there can go ahead and click on the promo code. You can also go to Texans for Vaccinechoice.com. Okay, Texans for Vaccine Choice. And you can find it there under Train with Team TFC.

Okay. So you'll be information. If you're in Texas, you can volunteer for us and take the class for free. If you're out of Texas, you can buy a ticket. It comes with this handy dandy workbook that has all kinds of exercises that walk you through and help you internalize and apply the information. But going back to connect, another piece I really want your audience to understand was really not my idea, but it's one of the lenses that we use to help with our outreach work. And it's called a 738-55% rule.

It was founded in the 70s by a UCLA psychology professor, Albert Mahabrian. And it's very important and very true. And what it says is it's not what you say, it's how you sound and what you look like when you say it. Only 7% of your partner's perceived meaning of you actually comes from the word spoken. I spent sad, literal years trying to find perfect magical words, and I meet advocates all the time that are obsessing about perfect magical words, but I could find the perfect words. Well, you know what?

The perfect words get you 7% of the communication puzzle. That's it. Interesting. 38% however comes from your tone of voice alone. So rather than taking all that energy, trying to find perfect words that don't exist and don't get you very far, focus on developing an awareness of how you sound to your partner. Do I sound aggressive? Do I sound approachable? Do I sound calm? Right? Do I sound condescending? Do I? Absolutely. Do I sound judgmental? All of those things. Develop an awareness of your sound. And then 55%, 55%, more than half. comes from your body language in facial expressions alone.

Am I closed off to you? Am I turned in your direction? Do I seem welcoming and approachable? Because those two things, your tonal voice and your body language, provide the contextual cues that give the meaning to the words to your partner. I use very clear and direct language in all of my interactions, and it is my voice tone and my body language

that conveys my love and care for you. And there is nothing. I mean nothing more powerful and magical than you and your ability to connect with the person in front of you. So connection is a very important step that should not be missed or rushed. And during that connection step, you're looking for three things in your discovery process with your partner. What my partner's position is, why that position makes sense to them, and what they need to shift into a different space, okay? Yeah.

You discover that, and when you discover that, and you've gained trust and established safety, your prize for connecting well is gaining the influence to inform your partner. And when you inform, definitely choose something not nuanced. Don't go in the weeds, okay? You're asking your partner to elicit a worldview shift, right? Barring trauma, as most people in medical liberty came here through trauma, but barring trauma, there is a lot of resistance to that worldview shift.

And the dominant worldview is that vaccines are what? Safe and effective, safe and effective, right? And to pierce that, right, is a big ask for someone. So don't just be surprised by resistance, but expect it and help your partner shift by giving them things that are not nuanced, that are objective reality and easily verifiable so that they can push back

and openly resist that reality and be proven wrong, right? That helps your partner shift so much. And while you're doing that, make sure that you're staying regulated, you're staying open to them, be mindful of your body language and your voice tone, and then after you've informed your partner and they're marinating in it, the last step is allow. Right. I meet advocates that struggle with allowing all the time.

And I struggled greatly too. I was coming from a fear-based place. I did not want those people to be harmed. I was frightened that they would be harmed. And I got too attached to their outcome. But the truth is, just like you and I know, we are not at the decision-making table for anyone else but ourselves. You're not.

You're not. I'll say this. I've said it before. The odds are you're not going to see that shift in that sitting. Yep. Right? This is like a television series. You're not in episode 10.

It's going to get 10 to get there. What you want is for them to tune. back in. You want them to have this conversation with you. You know what? I really appreciate that conversation yesterday. I'd like to, I wanted to follow up with a couple more questions. That's what you were trying to hook that you hear. You want them to assimilate and internalize what you shared and be willing to continue their relationship in the future so that you can have more opportunities to help them shift because again, you're eliciting a worldview shift in your partner, which is a very tall order for humans to do. And it's important to recognize that. There's no two minutes that's going to

shift anyone unless they were about to shift anyway right yeah yeah which you don't know when you like talking to random people is one of my absolute favorite activities i mean it makes sound a little odd but i love it i love talking to people that i don't know and getting to see how far i can get with them and where they are on this spectrum of understanding because regardless of your individual choices you want medical liberty laws in your life you do not want bureaucratic government people to decide what happens to your body ever This is the most important issue. It is.

Even freedom, if you care about what this country represents, if you want it to last for your children and the generations to come, I do think this is the tip of the spear. I think you make a good point. I would also say, what's great, they should take this course right now. You can go to Texans for Vaccine Choice. We are having a high wire specific class on December 9th. So Tuesday, December 9th, you can do that QR code. There's a promo code to take 20% off. You'll get long class with me that's live where you can ask all the questions that you want.

You'll also get a workbook mailed to you so that you can have tons and tons and tons of information to help you internalize and apply those tenants because again I want you to be successful. We must be successful or we're not going to succeed. We will lose our liberty. We will lose our liberty and we have to get the hearts and minds. We have to have this conversation with the people that we love and the people that we don't know that we love yet, right? I just had this image. I know, like, I'm one of the world's worst dog trainers. We have, like, these feral dogs in our house. But if you've ever had a dog like that, right? That gets outside of the yard and they're running towards the road.

And you, at virtually, like, get over here. You clap, and then they look, and now is it a game? And then you yell, and now they start going more and more. And eventually, you just, like, I found, like, I just dropped down on my back and, like, just lay there. And I have to act, like, I don't care if you run that traffic and just see if you'll come to me. Because all the attention is just driving them away. it's a lot of what this game is with someone you love.

You have to just, you know, approach in a way where you're not pushing them away. Humans have a natural inborn defense mechanism against being controlled. It's called reactants, okay? And it's a real thing. And part of allowing is what I call the paradox of outreach, which is when you, as the advocate, can let go of your need to control their choice because that's what you're doing when you're too attached to their choice. That's your need to work through,

when you can let go of your need to control their choice. That is the exact moment when you gain the type of influence that truly can help them shift that choice. People can feel when you're not attached. My own personal growth marker of my success as an advocate has been the enhanced ease with which I can allow. I am not attached anymore to anyone else's choice but mine. And because of that, I shift people faster.

and more effectively than I ever did when I clung to my need to have their choice be what I needed it to be. And that's hard to hear sometimes, right? Well, you know what? Let's get into your personal story right after the show and off the record. Absolutely. I'd love to do that. I want to hear how that got you there. Take advantage of this. Texans for Vaccine Choice.

You can click on the QRQ, let's bring it up one more time. This is really important. I mean, you should really take this on. I want to do better over the holidays. It's time, man. We've got the momentum at our back, the winds that are back, the science is with us. Go in, be happy. Look, there's no reason to get defensive.

We're in the offensive position. It's really easy to get nice and friendly right now, but start enrolling people, right? Start using honey to catch those bees and not vinegar.