The Highwire with Del Bigtree - MEANS COLLIDES WITH OFFIT

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Former big pharma & food consultant, Calley Means, went viral this week when he crushed vaccine shill, Paul Offit, in a heated debate on CNN regarding his conflict of interest as sitting ACIP Committee member while also receiving funding from Merck. He joins Del to discuss his efforts as a part of the MAHA coalition traveling state to state advocating for new bills embracing RFK Jr’s health policies.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-highwire-with-del-bigtree--3620606/support.

From the moment I've gotten into this investigation into the safety of pharmaceutical products, specifically vaccines, you know, all we've ever wanted is a debate. All we've ever wanted is those people that say that they've properly tested these vaccines, especially those that have made millions of dollars off of them. Why won't you just sit down at a table? Let's just put it all out in front of an audience and say, here's what we have, what do you have, here's what we're asking for, can you hand it over? It never happens. Every single year, In fact, I reach out to guys like Dr. Paul Offutt and Peter Hotez and say, would you come on to my show? I'd love to interview you. I actually think that they would find the experience more pleasant than they imagine. But, you know, every year it's thank you very much, but no, thank you. So that's why it was so awesome this week that Dr. Paul Offutt appears to have made a tragic error. He decided that it might be safe to do a debate if it was just one. with the food guy.

I mean, what does he know? Well, sparks flu, because this is what the food guy had to say. Vaccines, I think, are really the safest, best tested things that we give to children. And that's what is making America healthy again. And I think to focus on vaccines as a target and claim that they're causing harms when they're not

is a detriment to America's children. What's causing distrust in public health authorities is conflict of interest, like Dr. Offett taking millions of dollars. from pharmaceutical makers like Merck while approving and recommending pharmaceuticals on ASIP committees. It's the fact that Dr. Offutt's saying that science is always settled when he himself has approved vaccines that have been recalled for causing organ failure for kids. What worries me about RFK Jr., which is why I think he shouldn't be ahead of HHS,

is he has been a virulent anti-vaccine act, and it's for the last 20 years. And when he stands in front of the HHS a couple days ago, what did he talk about? He talked about childhood vaccines number one. He talked about electromagnetic radiation number two. He talked about pesticides. He didn't talk about the things that Calle is talking about here, which is things like obesity or over-medicating children or sugar drink. I'm all for that.

I agree with that. You can have both. He gave a powerful speech about these issues. This is what Bobby Kennedy is fighting against Dr. Offutt. As you know, you were the chair at the Children's Hospital, the Merck chair. It was like a NASCAR driver wearing their sponsors. Merck paid your $1.5 million salary, and this is what Bobby's saying, is that fundamentally, pharma can create good innovations, but they're foundationally incentivized for children to be sick.

Farmer doesn't make money when children are healthy. The hospitals don't make money when the beds are empty. Chronic disease, just as a demonstrable statement of economic fact, is a great economic invention for the health care industry, which demonstrably makes money when patients are sick. And that's an incentive Bobby Kennedy is going hard after. I'm in Florida. I'm in a state senator's office right now.

I'm actually lobbying for these state snap dolls, which Bobby is really supporting, to get soda off of snap. I think the problem is that the public health community, the Merck shares of pediatricians, I mean, that is just insane. Merck does not have children's interests at heart. Merck itself has settled billions of dollars in criminal penalties for misleading and falsifying data in the past 10 years. I don't receive a, okay, it's, it's, it's, I do not have a conflict of interest. The Merck chair is defined by Penn, and Penn, there is no quid pro quo to being having an endowed chair. Anybody who receives an endowed chair would know. Secondly, it's like because there aren't the data on their side regarding vaccines, they do what all personal injury lawyer types do, which is attack the witness.

I'm not RFK Jr's problem. The science that has continually shown he's wrong about vaccine. You didn't make millions of rules. He's wrong about that. That's the problem. Well, my understanding is Dana, White, White's phone has been ringing off the hook, many calling it the fight of the year. We'll see if he follows through on that, but I'm joined by Callie Means.

That was astounding. Do you go in preparing for something like that? Because I'm telling you, that is a one of a once-in-a-lifetime moment for a lot of people that have been watching Offutt for years. I think the reason to happen is I wasn't that prepared. I have about an hour's notice. I don't think Paul Offutt was able to do research on who he was going in. He's on scene, and he basically lives in the green room. So I think he was just doing another segment.

But this is important. I mean, Paul Offick kind of dismissed it. This ties everything together. Let's just get to the uncorrupted truth. Let's be able to ask questions. This scientist is berating Bobby Kennedy and anyone for asking a question. That is science. Yeah.

And conflicts matter. Conflicts really matter. Let's get to the truth. You know, they bring up in this that you're a lobbyist for farmer, were you not? You know, as though that's a bad thing. But what is your background that because you are so eloquent? I have stood on stages next to you. It's a lot of fun because I sort of bring the sort of emotional and thinking about.

But you have the numbers and the data and the, you know, but what is the background that puts you in that position? Yeah, I think everyone's conflicts and everyone's financial interests and it should be scrutinized. I think that's totally appropriate. Everyone's story is valid. My stories I grew in Washington, D.C. I was raised to be a good young conservative. And that was, you know, I went to study political science and economics, worked on campaigns, and then inevitably work for consultants, for lobbyists.

That's what the people, I was on the McCain campaign, there were people in the Obama campaign. We worked together. And the two biggest spenders in Washington, D.C. are the pharmaceutical industry that by far, yeah, health care spends five times more lobbying than the oil industry, and the food industry. And I saw stuff. I didn't like it. I've been an entrepreneur for more than 10 years. Now make money through a company that does medical notes for food, exercise.

detoxifying solutions, anything about non-pharmaceutical solution. I have a book in advocacy. So I think that's totally appropriate to scrutinize. But yeah, that's core of my story. As I saw inside this, I learned from my sister who left the medical system after kind of being indoctrinated and seeing how people are indoctrinated and seeing the wrong way to go. So that's my personal journey, you know, very tied into having a kid and my mom abruptly

dying of a chronic disease. So I've shared that. And I think it gives me a good ability to talk about how right after that, you know, after that segment on CNN, right after a pharma ad ran. And as a consultant for the farm industry, talked about this, we paid for pharma ads, not as a way to influence consumers, but to buy the news itself. The fact that she's getting frantic, and I got to say Pamel Brown, I actually commend her for having this debate. I agree.

But the fact that a producer's, hey, hey, no, it's screaming. Screaming in the air, hey, pick out that conflict. It's not about kids being healthy. It's not about, you know, fact-checking the contributor, Paul Offutt, who's on all the time, who's taking tens of millions of dollars. It appears a farmer royalties. It's, oh, no, no, try to find another angle to discredit what somebody's saying who's trying to talk about conflicts and children's health. I think what was so amazing about it is the Maha movement, you know, is this many ways, and I want to get into a little bit, but it's sort of a combination, this medical freedom movement that's been very focused on the vaccine issue, on drugs, on drugging children, on over-vaccinating, or the safety. behind vaccines, which I've handled a lot. But then you brought in sort of this food, you know,

focus, the chemicals in food, the endocrine disruptors, the carcinogens, the plastics, things like that. And there's been some concern as Bobby was going through this confirmation period that you were taking the conversation off track just in the food space. And I think I saw a lot of comments. You're going, wait a minute. Maybe Cali is actually on our side. I want to just say this just high level, just just the fact. This Maha-Colese, is one of the most important political coalitions in modern American history. And, you know, when you go to the events

that I were at with Bobby early on before the Trump endorsement, there's no question that what we call medical freedom, whatever we want to call it, people that have been advocating for 20 years, have been taking a lot of arrows, have been really a great personal injury fighting this battle, or the base of Bobby's, you know,

coalition. And then I think there's been more at it, Added, politics is about addition. And I think there's been natural allies, what I call maha moms. Really the majority of the country coming and they can come from the food issue. They come from the fact that there's toxins, the water, all these things. I think there's different arrows. This is politics is the most consequential issue.

There's been questioning of a lot of things, questioning of me on Twitter. I think at the highest level, this is a beautiful coalition. I think that we actually threw a lot of messiness with politics. is put energy behind Bobby to what happened? He endorsed Trump. He helped Trump win the election. He threw incredible opposition to President Trump appointed an HHS secretary. There was never a cabinet selection process in American history that had more opponents

than Bobby Kennedy and this coalition got him the political will. I was hearing from senators. He was not looking good. There were some centers that were really in the Republican side thinking about voting against him. They said that they got more calls and more office visits from this coalition of medical freedom advocates, of moms that are new to the coalition, of people that care about food. So I just want to say, Del, I've learned so much from you.

And I think this coalition is beautiful. I do, too. And I was very, very proud to carry that unseen. And I just want to make something extremely clear. Bobby Kennedy, President Trump, they talked about, we need to be able to ask questions and get to the truth. Let's talk about vaccines very directly. I'm not as big or knowledgeable at the science.

I've learned a lot from you. I've learned a lot from Aaron's Siri. But the fact that parents are for asking a question about the schedule, about the timing, when Paul off it, I want to make this very clear, he on the ACIP committee approved a vaccine demonstrable for rotavirus. Yeah. That was pulled for causing organ failure. And this shouldn't even be controversial. And by the way, was on that committee with a multimillion dollar contract developing his own rodo virus vaccine. Because he got the rhodovirus condition approved.

Right. then they approve something that caused death to kids that was pulled and then installed his vaccine, which made $200 million in royalties. So, so, so like that is a really big problem. And I am, and again, have learned a lot and I've actually, frankly, enraged myself. And I think it really is tied to what I'm seeing on parents being questioned and kind of gaslighted for questions about food. It's like, how is that not a legitimate question to ask about that complex? How is it not legitimate to paint a vision in 20 years where we have advanced science,

where we know about vaccine injuries, where we know about potential biomarkers for certain children to have more personalized therapeutics, where we're continuing to research to establish the joint goal of having better therapeutics. If we're the same that we are today in 20 years on vaccines, we failed. Science is ever, ever evolving. And I don't even think that's controversial. I don't think it's controversial to call out the conflicts. I don't think it's controversial to call out the fact that there's been many vaccines that have been pulled, you know, and the imperative to continue to duck science is vital.

I don't think it's controversial to call out that we have demonstrably different schedules and guidelines than other countries. Like, like, this shouldn't be actually that scary to talk about. And I'll just say this, and I've really evolved on this, when society is telling you to shut up and not ask questions with the most violent. force imaginable, that's a red flag. Yeah. That is a red flag. Especially a free society. That is a red flag.

When Russia tells you to shut up, okay, you know, North Korea, we live in the United States of America. I mean, I think it's, you know, first of all, I was glad people got to see that, you know, because that's the side of you that I've known. We have been in very important meetings. I want to thank you personally. You were a part of this handoff as Bobby was considering and joining President Trump. You were the one of the people that said, you know, because the biggest question was, can Bobby trust President Trump?

Is he going to follow through? There was this feeling that the first time Bobby was, you know, presented with, I want you to run a vaccine safety commission. That rug was yanked out. You were one of many voices saying, I'm in here. I'm one of the people that's going to make sure that, you know, that this follows through. But coming up to that, you know, were you ever relaxed up until the moment that Bobby was confirmed? Did you feel comfortable? I will say that as you saw me, I was nervous every day.

But I did, I think we both had this kind of almost spiritual sense that this is just going to work. I mean, there were a thousand different things that happened that were unexpected to get Bobby to that moment. And I think we both had this kind of confidence because it just had to happen. I will say, and I would just want to say, I really get the consternation. and skepticism and anxiety around this issue. I mean, this is really consequential. I think, you know, coming from my background in politics, I did have a framework and a real belief

that the politics of this issue, the politics of outrage of the conflicts, the politics of the poisoning and toxifying of children and then profiting from that, which has many different angles, the moment had come for that. That was what was being talked about by you for many years, by Joe Rogan,

by all the independent media. It's what voters were frustrated we have, but no major concerns. candidate had really seized that mantle. And I just do think, I just say to everyone, let's continue to put pressure on, continue to advocate, but we're in a really, really good position. And political popularity of this movement is really important. That is asking tough questions. That is looking at conflicts. But President Trump, and this is, this is, this is a credit to him, but Bobby and President Trump are in this because they have a great person relationship and the

politics that moment has come. So I do think it's just, you know, magically. what's happened. I think we can go really aggressive and really hard. We need to be prepared that this is a political process with a lot of different stakeholders. But I don't think this is a moment where we need to just have everything at this moment. It's urgent. Kids are dying. 100%.

But I think we all need to realize the real victory is solidifying this movement as a defining force in American politics for the rest of time. And that's helping Bobby. And I know you and I, what I'm most passionate, I think we're both passionate about, is

get the agenda from Bobby, and let's continue marshalling this great community that I think is jelling better together. I mean, I think political coalitions are hard. I mean, I think this is a redefinition of American politics. You didn't expect these independent, crunchy moms. Crunchy girl, mom sitting there while the boat was coming in. My brother was next to me. We grew up in Boulder, Colorado, kids of hippie parents, March of the 60s.

Never would have considered voting. And I was like, our entire party that we grew up in his vote. against our way of life now. And I've said the Democratic Party just seeded all holistic natural health over the Republican Party. It's amazing. I know I'm stealing you in this moment. You're in Texas right now, racing in and out of the Capitol. And so what are you doing here? What is the focus right now of the work that you're doing? And I know that you're not just in Texas, Arizona, you're sort of making a way around the country. I want to say it. I know we both feel this. It's like we don't even talk much about this, but I just feel like we're all just kind of

jumping and so many groups and so many leaders are just jumping to just add more momentum to this movement. So something I've seen is that states, and I know you've been helping. I think we're going to go to some states together, have been just not even coordinating with Bobby, just taking the Maha man. Well, moving faster than they can, there's medical freedom bills. Yeah. There's school lunch bills. There's bills to act to take soda off of snap. There's, you know, bills for more transparency. There's bills taking on the American Medical Association, which totally rigs medical guidelines. Yeah. So state lawmakers, I know who are reaching out to you and, you know, I've been trying to help

however I can, are putting these bills for it. And they're getting huge support. They're getting bipartisan support. Sometimes it's just party line, which makes no sense. But, yeah, I've been putting together a coalition, you know, with a lot of different folks to just help however we can. So we had Mark Hyman. We had Brigham Beuler there today.

Jason Karp, who's a, you know, started some very prominent healthy food companies, just trying to testify. And I'll say this to everyone. And I want to just make this so clear. The calls and the tweets really, really matter. The lawmakers throughout the states, seeing that their testimonies are being shared, seeing that they're being celebrated by grassroots armies,

most issues don't have that. Most insurance bills or some random bills on state issues, they don't hear anything. They're telling me, consistently, they're getting calls from the people that are watching the show. They're getting calls from grassroots moms saying, I need you to pass this bill for kids. And that's really, really matters. To me, what are we trying to orchestrate here in society?

We're trying to show a groundswell of states, of advocacy, of podcasts, of continued engagement, of these questions being asked about at town halls. Two years ago, and I've been working on this for a couple years, two years ago, Lawmakers told me they're like yeah, children's health is important, but you know the phones aren't ringing off the hook You know, we're getting calls from the you know Pharma companies. They're getting old people to say don't take away my benefits now they're getting calls And again, it cannot be overstated Everyone says about talks about money in politics. Bobby was up against him than any cabinet secretary ever

Yeah, the calls the energy that's happening from this show from this audience. Yeah So we just need to keep that up. I cannot stress this enough to everyone. Let's just keep that momentum up. It could be negative and positive, and I think that's fine. And let's keep, let's keep pushing. But there's a cool coalition. Even people were questioning me, people were expressing frustration. They should continue expressing frustration and questioning. Yeah. But like something very, very special has happened. And I think most people can feel that there is this coalition coming together that can change American culture, American politics, honestly. I agree. Call, I'm going to let you get back to him. You're racing back to the

Captain, thank you for taking the time today. I look forward to working with you more. We are talking about moving to states together. I love standing on stages with you. We cover so many different parts of this and there's a real balance. I agree with you. This is a political movement now. We have a voting block. We are making a difference. That pressure is working and I'm going to do everything I can to keep people motivated to keep that pressure on government because Bobby really is only representation that the people care. That's why he's there. That care and concern has got to keep pounding on those doors and say, you know, let him give us the information, let him bring this radical transparency, you know, all of those things.

That's going to come from the people. I know your audience knows this, but I want to say, and I appreciate your kind words, this man is an indefatigable warrior behind the scenes. And it has been a dream working with you. And I think we both had moments where we're just like, this is really, really damn cool. And I know there's just millions and millions of people that have propped up Bobby in this movement. and I have learned so much from you and just it's been amazing loosely working with you on this amazing new coalition to just get this stuff done. So thank you, Del.

Great, Kelly. All right. Best of luck. I'll see you out there.