The Highwire with Del Bigtree - “NATURAL IMMUNITY IS OUR WAY OUT OF THE PANDEMIC”

Episode Date: January 22, 2022

NBA superstar, Jonathan Isaac, has been on the frontlines of pro-athletes pushing back on Covid-19 vaccine mandates, and doctors are joining his team. Former UCI Director of Medical Ethics, Dr. Aaron Kheriaty, who has also been in the limelight for refusing to get vaccinated, joins Isaac on The HighWire for a deep dive into why they are defending their natural immunity to Covid.#JonathanIsaac #AaronKheriaty #NaturalImmunityBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-highwire-with-del-bigtree--3620606/support.

When we think, you know, about this term anti-vaxxer and the pejorative being used, you know, we talk about how even Joe Rogan finds himself in the mix now. All he did was decide to use ivermectin when he got sick with COVID. He'd done his research, all the attacks by CNN, probably the greatest thing that could ever happen because he forced a great voice and entity like Joe Rogan to actually start talking about what he thought and interviewing the scientists that he could get a hold of, you know, talking to Dr. Peter McCola, Dr. Robert Malone, all of that. seems to be shifting this landscape in the beginning of this year.

But when I think of probably the biggest anti-Baxer in the world, I think he's been in the news all week. It's a huge story. It's everywhere. What's more dangerous than an anti-Baxer? How about an anti-Baxer star athlete? Take a look at this. The top-rank men's player in the world,

Novak Djokovic, still awaiting his fate to see if he can compete in the first tennis grand slam of the new year. controversy surrounding the top ranked player in men's tennis. The tennis world number one is fighting deportation and for the chance to compete in the Australian Open. He could be barred from re-entering the country for another three years. The champ remains in detention in Maliburne this morning because he is unvaccinated. What's worse than an anti-vaxia in a pandemic? An anti-vaccine star athlete. The ABF has done their job. Entry with a visa requires double vaccination.

or a medical exemption. Jokevich's legal team stating that he was granted a visa back in November without qualification for his vaccination status. Also that he was infected with COVID-19 in recent weeks. He tested positive for COVID on December 16th on which he was photographed unmasked at an event in his native Serbia. Breaking news overnight, no that Jokovic has won the battle to stay in Australia after his visa had been revoked over his vaccination status.

The judge ordering Jokovic's passport and belongings returned immediately. On the streets of Melbourne, fans celebrated the Serbian star's victory in court. But in Australia, there's been one of the strictest lockdowns anywhere in the world, and many people there are unsympathetic to his case. He's waiting with bated breath, as everyone in Australia in the tennis community, is to see what the government is going to do with these discrepancies, which sound a lot like lies. One possible issue ABC News has confirmed

is whether Jokovic lied on his travel declaration form, specifically whether he was home in the 14 days prior to coming to Australia or wherever he was. Australia either boots him out, revokes his visa, right, kicking out a guy who's tied for the most majors of all time with Roger Federer and Raphael Nadal and possibly threatening the future of the Australian open. No small thing in Australia. That's option A. Option B is recognize natural immunity, admit that an unvaccinated person is not a public health threat to Australians and let him play.

At any minute, Australian authorities may or may not deport the number one men's tennis player in the world. Either Australia turns out to be reveals itself to be a fraud, Brian, or they reinforce that they are in fact tyrants. That's an amazing spot to find yourself in. Are we a fraud or are we tyrants? And I think that that is the perfect way to discuss what's happening in Australia. I've heard people say that the prime minister must have done this on purpose. Let Jokovic come in just so he could try to kick him out and make a big statement. I think it's a stupid statement. And I think they now find themselves in a very, very difficult spot. I'm telling you one of the great heroes of our times right now is Novak Djokovic.

because he is standing his ground. He is standing for freedom. He's standing for natural immunity. And by the way, he's going to go down in history because it's proving all around the world. We're going to deliver it to you all day today the fact that he's right. The science is wrong.

He has the best immunity there is. And if he didn't, everyone's going to catch COVID no matter what. Now, of course, you know, we now know that he's in the draw. That's the headlines that are happening. So Jogovic included in Australia Open Draw, despite COVID-related visa uncertainty. So that means that the tennis association decided he's in. There's a last minute thought on whether, I mean, look, the judge has ruled.

The judge said, you know, this is illegal. The guy had to be, say he's here. I'm overruling his detention. Novak Junkovic. Judge orders immediate release of Tennis Star. That happened. So the question now that looms is, are they so hurt over this? Have they so destroyed their credibility that all they can do?

I mean, they've got to go ahead and destroy his career. They cannot let him play. have to imagine what those conversations are like behind closed doors. I wish I was a fly on the wall. The consideration right now is, is the health department or somebody in government going to try and drum up, you know, drum up another charge? Like, was he in Spain before he was in Serbia? Maybe he lied about, maybe there's a long layover. We can turn into like a lie about where he was. I mean, the point is, is if he had that infection on December 16th, which he said he does, does. Everyone that is a decent scientist in the world knows he now is the best immunity there is.

He is the lowest risk of anybody that's currently going to be at the Australia Open. But what I find fascinating about this is how the news has tried to spin this, as though the government is trying to protect all those people. It's forcing to get vaccinated. It wants to show those people that even the affluent and the rich and the and the superstars are going to be treated with the same, you know, iron fist that you're being treated with. I just highly doubt when we look at Australia that that is the sentiment across that nation. I think a lot of people are cheering, whether privately or as we see gathered outside the legal offices and in the hotels where they had Jokovic locked up, those people recognize this guy is fighting for me.

This guy is fighting for reality in the middle of this insane delusional event that we talked about last week, that we've all been a part of. Jokovic is a hero. I'll bet you he's a hero if you pulled all the people in Australia, but who's going to get an honest poll? out of Australia right now. Anyway, we're watching that closely. I think we're just about seven days out for the beginning of the Australia Open. We will see how this goes. No matter how it plays out and how this ends, Djokovic has already won. And now, when we think about star athletes and the power that they have and, you know, these people that have spoken out, so many

of the times, you know, even in Djokovic's case, he hasn't really gotten to the details of the science. He's just standing in, I have a right, I have medical. privacy. This is none of your business. It's a very strong place to be. But, you know, even when Aaron Rogers went, you know, got caught in that whole issue and he ended up getting sick, we keep telling you there's things we wish they had said. Well, there's one guy that I honestly don't think we need to correct what he said that stood in it as a star basketball player decided to say, you know, I've looked at the science. I think I'm intelligent enough to have, you know, looked at that science and come to my own conclusions. He got into the science where everyone else is

afraid. I think it's one of the greatest press conferences by an athlete in this arena discussing being unvaccinated in the height of the pandemic. We've played this before. I want to play it again because I think it's, you know, we're starting to see the effect that these brilliant brave souls are having. They're using that platform, that podium that they stand on to make a difference in this world. They are the heroes this week. Of course, I'm talking about Jonathan Isaac. I would start with, I've had COVID in the past. And so our understanding of antibodies of natural immunity has changed a great deal from the onset of the pandemic and it's still evolving. I understand that the vaccine would help if you catch COVID and you'll be able to have less symptoms from contracting it.

But with me having COVID in the past and having antibodies with my current age group and a fitness. physical fitness level. It's not necessarily a fear of mine. Taking the vaccine, it does open me up to the, albeit rare chance, but the possibility of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine itself. I don't believe that being unvaccinated means infected or being vaccinated means uninfected. You can still catch COVID with or we're not having the vaccine. I would say honestly the the craziness of it all in terms of not being able to say that it should be everybody's fair choice without being demeaned or talked crazy to doesn't make one comfortable to do what said person is telling them to do. It should just be their decision and, you know, loving your neighbors, not just loving those that agree with you or look like you or moving the same way that you do. It's, you know, loving those who don't.

I love that press conference. We've seen several of these leading athletes make some public statements, but usually it feels like the kind of dancing around it, not wanting to get, you know, too much in the science. I love how Jonathan Isaac just stood in the middle of that, seemed to have no problem talking about the science and his perspective. And it's really, truly my honor to be joined right now by Jonathan Isaac. Jonathan, first of all, thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me, Dale. So, you know, my first question for you is as you were sort of stepping in front of those cameras, were you aware of the firestorm that would probably be set off by stating your opinion around vaccination and the fact that you just didn't feel like you wanted to get the vaccination, or were you caught by surprise? I absolutely 100% knew, you know, what I was walking into from being on social media and just being a part of what everybody was saying during that time. There was so much passion around people getting vaccinated and people taking measures to kind of put the pressure on people and speak down

about people who had questions or second thoughts about getting the vaccine. So I knew 100% that I was walking into something that, you know, that wouldn't be portrayed in my favor. But I felt I had the right knowledge and understanding about what was going on and that, you know, I was free to make that decision for myself and give other people a voice that didn't, that haven't had the opportunity to. Now, were you, mostly just coming from a sort of, you know, personal liberty perspective. I mean, obviously you talked about some of the science. How much research had you done? I mean, did you feel like you had a pretty good grasp of the science around this issue? Yeah, it was definitely both.

Definitely a personal liberty, you know, situation for me and religious freedom, you know, a stake for me in it. But absolutely, I've done a lot of due diligence around the science and just kind of weighing it for myself and seeing that, you know, the most of the people that were at risk had either comorbidities or that they were elderly and that because of the physical state that I was in and even the fact that I had COVID already, I didn't feel the need to take a vaccine that didn't stop me from getting the infection or transmitting the infection. So I didn't want to open myself up to any adverse reactions to the vaccine itself. Is that a more natural?

I mean, you don't have to answer all these questions. I mean, I'm just going to sort of throw it out there. But do you tend to sort of avoid pharmaceutical products just by nature? Are you more of a natural health guy? Or was it just specifically this vaccine that you thought you just didn't want to go near it? Well, I'd say I'm pretty in the middle. Like if I have a headache or something like that and I can tough it out, I will. But I absolutely, at the same time, if it's bad enough, I'll go to the hospital.

Or, you know, obviously we have the team of physicians. We've got the magic that'll take care of you and give you anything that you need. Now, when it came to, you know, your team and the athletes on your team, did you feel supported? I mean, there was moments where, you know, I think the league was or somebody was saying, you know, you can't eat dinner. You can't be around the team, you know, things like that. What was the sort of climate around, you know, other team members? Are they supporting you? Are they like, will you just get this damn vaccine and get on with the rest of it?

What is the vibe, you know, in the middle of something like this? From my teammates, 100%, you know, those guys were great. You know, when everything broke about, you know, my decision to not be vaccinated, they were all cool with it. We still ate together. We still hung out as if as if nothing had changed. And honestly, the league and even the team have been pretty laxed about, you know, keeping up on the protocols that they put in place. I feel that they were generally just kind of fear tactics to a degree to get you to just,

okay, I don't want to face these things, so I'll just take the vaccine. And so, you know, everything has been fine. So are you sort of under the impression that even the league itself is just bowing to pressure from the administration, like our nation's pushing, so that they really don't have skin in the game. It's just like whatever we have to do to keep our stadiums open and keep playing? Is that sort of the sense of what you're getting out of it, that it's not actually the league that's pressuring you, but more sort of the health departments? I think that's a part of it. I think to look at what's going on with the hysteria and the politicization around the COVID as a whole, it would be naive to say that these organizations and global corporations aren't to some degree worried about the pushback that they would get or what they would face if they were to go against the health industry.

And so I think there's absolutely room to say that the NBA and all these other corporations feel pressure to kind of align themselves with what everybody's saying politically and don't want to push. back against that. Now, you know, as a layperson, I don't know, you always think like all those super athletes, which you are definitely on that list of one of the top athletes in the world. We're watching Novak Djokovic right now in the news, you know, trying to be allowed to play in Australia. It looks like that. Maybe moving his direction after he's literally been locked down. Aaron Rogers, of course, and, you know, Cole Beasley, Kyrie Irving. Do you guys, like, call each other? Is there like a club of like elite athletes to say, hey, I'm in the middle of this too and here's what, here's my advice to you or, you know, just at least sort of check in with each other. Are you

kind of all on your own on this? Yeah, I haven't talking to any of the guys, but I, you know, I've paid attention to what's going on and just have, you know, the utmost respect for those guys willing to stand up for what they believe in and give a voice to people who don't have one. Is it as small a group as it appears? Do you feel like it's just a tiny little group of athletes that really don't want to be involved in this? Or is there a, a larger silent minority or majority, if you will. I mean, what is your sense of really the energy right now? Even those that maybe got forced to get it but hated it,

do you feel like there's more athletes that are really against this sort of vaccine than we're hearing about? I think that there's definitely some groupings. There are some athletes that kind of, you know, that saw all the hysteria behind it and was just like, you know, I'm willing to do it. I'm protecting myself and protecting the people around me. And then there were the athletes that kind of saw,

kind of through the weeds about, you know, everything and saw that maybe this isn't so much about public health and there are some other things going on here. And I got that inclination right when the Rolling Stone article had dropped and mischaracterized my position on the vaccine. That's when it kind of illuminated for me that this thing really wasn't all about public health or they wouldn't have to do that. And so there are some athletes that are kind of waking up and saying, okay, I got my booster, I got my vaccine, and I still have COVID. And you're still talking about the same language. And even now that the CDC is coming out and kind of back tracking on a lot of the things that they said around mask and other things. So there's definitely some guys that are waking up

and obviously the people who are at the forefront kind of opposed to it and had their different reasons to be. Do you feel a little bit vindicated in a way as you watch? I mean, literally leagues, I mean, entire teams, especially in football, not being allowed to play or having to move their game because so many of them after being vaccinated have caught the virus. Do you have a sense of a little bit of I told you so? I mean, this is what I was seeing or does that not? affect you? No, I wouldn't say, you know, my thinking going into it was that everybody is free to make their own decision. If you want to take the vaccine, you're absolutely free to do so. If you want to take the vaccine, you're free to do so. I honestly, to a degree, you know,

feel bad that some of the guys have to go through this after being promised to a degree that they wouldn't have to worry about COVID anymore. And for me, the scare is that even though, you know, it would, you know, the science is saying or people are saying that it would lessen your chances of having a severe reaction with taking the vaccine. These are, you know, these are premier athletes. And the fact that they have to open themselves up to the possibility of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine and then still getting the virus that they were vaccinated against, you know, I feel bad and they have to go home and sit and be in quarantine.

So, you know, I wouldn't say I've indicated. My stance is still that everybody is free to make their own decision and should not be mandated to do so when you take a look at the science and what our country stands for. Yeah, I think that's a great perspective to have. And I feel the same way. I feel bad for people that are trying to do what's right. I mean, that's really what a lot of these people are doing. They're just trying to do their part.

They're being told this makes a difference. So Jonathan Isaac has teamed up with a scientist and a doctor who also has been fighting really the conversation about natural immunity. Why should someone have to get a vaccine after they've already had the virus? All the science that we've shown you on the high wire clearly shows us that those that are previously infected had the best immunity on the planet. no vaccine. There's no study that shows that the vaccine can achieve that level of immunity, yet they still want to vaccinate these gentlemen. Dr. Aaron Carriardi has found himself in the

middle of this conversation, and this is what that looks like in the news. Director of Medical Ethics at UC Irvine, Dr. Aaron Cariotti. Physician Dr. Aaron Karatati. Dr. Aaron Carriotti, thank you so much for being here. He took the University of California Irvine to court over its draconian vaccine. mandate. So I worked on the front lines with the other physicians at the university all throughout the pandemic, treated many, many COVID patients, got COVID myself, recovered, and had robust natural immunity. The university said our policy is that everyone needs the vaccine without exception. And I challenged the university's vaccine mandate on behalf of people like me that have

natural immunity. This argument is 100% backed by scientific evidence. But UC Irvine doesn't doesn't seem to care about that. There's not been a single documented case of someone getting reinfected and transmitting the virus to others. So natural immunity actually impedes transmission. We have overwhelming evidence in the scientific literature now that natural immunity is robust, it's durable, it prevents not only reinfection but prevents transmission. I'm the safest person to be around on campus.

I've experienced this as an ethicist looking at the moral and legally issues with the vaccine mandates, but also obviously at a very personal level. Our equal rights under the Constitution were not being respected. All right, I'm here with Dr. Aaron Kariotti and Jonathan Isaac. Dr. Kariotti, first of all, you, for how long have you been working at the university, at UC Irvine? So I've been there for 15 years. I did my residency training and psychiatry there as well.

So if you count that a total of 19 years, basically my whole career, when I, I finished residency, I joined the faculty. And I taught, treated patients there. I directed the medical ethics program there for a dozen years. And the latest update on that, Dell, is after placing me on suspension, last month the university did fire me.

So I've been officially let go from the University of California where I spent my entire career, where I taught medical students. I was the only faculty member at the University of California. University of California, Irvine that directed courses in all four years of the medical students' curriculum. So I saw all the medical students every year for the entirety of their training. The students gave me the excellence in teaching award three times over the years. And so it's been a little shocked the system, leaving academic medicine, getting set up with a private practice, doing some research. and some advocacy work with other nonprofits like the like the Unity project here in

California and the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington DC but it's this is definitely a big professional change for me but but I have to say kind of going back to Jonathan's segment of the interview I saw the press conference that that you showed there at the beginning and was just blown away yeah that I was hearing this young professional athlete saying all the things that the other talking heads on TV, whether they be journalists who should have been doing their homework or even public health officials should have been saying and should have been explaining to the American people. Instead, we've got a very, very sharp, very courageous player from the NBA saying these things

instead and it was so refreshing I reached out to Jonathan and just thanked him for for his remarks and and encouraged him because I was I was in the thick of my own kind of conflict with the university over these mandates so I knew a little bit about what it's like to be really the only one standing up publicly in an institution like that so that's that's how we connected we stayed in touch and you know talked about the science talked about the latest stuff studies coming out. And again, it was refreshing to have a friend who's a layman. He's not, you know, not training science and medicine, but clearly paying way more attention

to these issues than other people whose job it is, you know, to pay attention to these issues. So that's, it's been, it's great getting to know him. And you guys just teamed up to write a really important, I think, a great article that just came out. This is the headline, folks. You should check it out. COVID mandates keep Americans from getting back in the game. We can fight COVID to defend freedom simultaneously. It goes on to talk about, we argue on the contrary, that the scientific evidence does not favor vaccination, nor warrant coercive mandates or restrictions for those with natural infection-induced immunity. Furthermore, we affirm that all people should maintain the right to inform consent or refusal

for COVID vaccines. I think when I think about this, Dr. Kariotti, I mean, you're an ethics professor. I just find that the irony of that, that is not only that you understand the medicine of science, but the fact that your whole conversation is the ethics of how we deal with science and medicine. And there's no bigger ethical question, I think, in the middle of this than the ethical question of informed consent. You know, the entire Nuremberg Code, the number one rule is that the voluntary consent of the patient is critical in modern and certainly democratic health care. And yet in this situation, you do what we say or else. You do what we say or you're fired. And so when you look at this, when you watch, you know, players not being allowed to play,

losing their pay, it'll not be able to hang in the locker room. And then you yourself, losing your job over simply and wanting to say, look, I understand the science. Where are we at ethically as a nation? What do you think about when history looks back at this moment in time, what will be the ethics conversations? So that's a great question, and I think you're exactly right. What I was seeing is these foundational ethical principles like informed consent, like the need to give accurate information to the public so that the informed consent can be truly informed,

these things were being just thrown overboard, just jettisoned because of this crisis situation. And, you know, if there's one thing that we've learned from the history of medicine is that it's especially during a crisis. It's especially during an emergency or a wartime situation where peoples or countries basic foundational ethical principles are even more important because that's when you're tempted to cast them aside. And it's been a little concerning to me as I look around at my fellow people that, you know, have been studying and teaching medical ethics, that with a few notable exceptions, Julie Penessian in Canada and a few others, for the most part, mainstream medical ethics has been more or less silent on what is being rolled out. And I think it's the same concern about my own job, the same concern about my own reputation that's driving so many other people to stay silent. But what it came down for me was basically trying to imagine myself in January and February when I ordinarily teach the required medical ethics course to the students, trying to imagine myself getting up and

talking to the students about informed consent and the Nuremberg Code. talking to students about the need for moral courage and, you know, the need to stick your neck out and say something, even though you're at the bottom of the hospital hierarchy, you're just a medical student. If you see something going on, something being rolled out that's going to harm patients, then even though it's intimidating, even though it's a little bit scary, you have to stand up and say something in order to protect. the patients. And I just couldn't imagine having that, you know, standing up in the lecture hall and having that conversation with the students, if I saw something being rolled out around me that I knew was wrong and I didn't stand up and try to put a stake in the crowd.

Well, and I think that's what's so important when we watch people that are in front of cameras, that are representing putting on the line like Jonathan. When you got the call from Dr. Kariotti, Jonathan, what was it that struck you? What, what, how did this turn into a friendship? Why are you guys closer now, writing together, doing things together? You know, what was that connection, Jonathan, for you? Well, when he had reached out to me and, you know, told me about his situation, I just saw somebody else in the fight alongside with me. And so my first, you know, message back to the doctor was thank you.

And then I was bouncing questions off of him. Like, you know, how long does natural immunity last? And he started to tell me that, you know, once you get a COVID infection, you know, over time, you're, you can correct me on this doctor. but it doesn't stay in your blood. What's the right word for it? The antibodies? Oh, the antibodies?

Yeah. Antibodies. Yeah, there you go. It doesn't stay in your blood over time because of all your antibodies from, you know, every virus that you've had stayed in your blood. It would be like sludge. But it is stored in your like memory, B cells and T cells. So if you do come in contact with that virus, again, your body can then ramp up antibodies.

But a lot of what people were saying was, well, natural immunity wanes. And that's something that, you know, Dr. Kiarity has pushback on and I've learned a lot about. So I just started to ask questions and just find out what was right, what was true, and did my own research as well. And then it kind of just fostered into, you know what, let's write a piece together and let's come together and use, you know, everything that you're saying about national immunity.

And I've got a couple quotes in there, you know, towards the end and everything like that about kind of the personal liberty side of things and why it's so important to preserve these things, especially in an emergency and to kind of just push back against authoritarian, you know, ideals and the things that are going on. Fantastic. Well, it's so great to have you to game. Dr. Carriotti, if there was one point that you'd like to make,

and obviously you're very focused on this natural immunity. I know you've worked with our lawyer. We share the same lawyer in Aaron Siri that represents the work that we do at the informed consent action network. He has won lawsuits for us against the National Institute of Health, CDC, the FDA, Health and Human Services. It's partly why we were able to sort of get a hold of you. I know you brought a case.

You even had fellow scientists and doctors at your, university writing in and backing up your perspective on the science around this. It didn't seem to matter. My understanding is they, you know, originally this was just dismissed. I'm sure you probably have, you know, ongoing ideas to push that case further. But when we think about this, I mean, you weren't even allowed into a courtroom to have this conversation, which I think is insane. But in the courtroom of public opinion, what do you think is the most important point? If we were to finally see the news anchors tell the truth on one point, what do you think is the point that should be being made to everybody in this country and around the world? What is the elevator pitch on why maybe we should be looking at this in a different way?

Yeah. So I think the point that I would make is that natural immunity is our way out of the pandemic. And connected with that point is the point that Jonathan already mentioned. The vaccines do not stop infection and transmission of this virus. And once you recognize that, then the argument, well, you should get vaccinated for the sake of other people just falls apart. If the vaccines don't prevent infection and transmission, if vaccine efficacy, I just saw a new preprint study of vaccine efficacy against the Omicron variant. Wow. People are realizing that by experience. Jonathan mentioned his fellow NBA players

who have been vaccinated, many of them boosted, still now getting infected. And that experience is waking people up to the fact that the vaccines were, their effectiveness was overpromised. Right. And when you overpromise and you under-deliver, you lose people's trust.

So I guess the last thing that I would say to people out there were not doctors or scientists is that whether or not you're a doctor or scientist, all of you are rational human beings and you have reason and you have logic. And so if what you're hearing just flatly contradicts what you're seeing going on around you or if what you're hearing one day flatly contradicts what you're hearing a week later, trust your own instincts trust your own judgment right don't outsource your rationality and your logic to quote unquote experts because unfortunately many of the many of the so-called experts that are being put forward are being given a platform simply because they're saying what people in power want to hear yeah there are economic interests at work here very very strong economic interests at work here their political interests in play here and um so the the public health establishment i think unfortunately has squandered a lot of its credibility over the

last two years and ordinary people i think it's it's time for you to to to wake up and realize that i can't outsource my basic judgment and my basic common sense and people are i think people now are really doing that because the evidence is so overwhelming. Everyone knows someone or has personally experienced getting infected in spite of vaccination. So that cat is out of the bag. Now, Jonathan, we have a quote from it. I'm getting, would have been one of your idols. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar decided to weigh on this. This is his quote. The NBA should insist that all players and staff are vaccinated to remove them from the team. NBA legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tells Rolling Stone, there's no room for players who are willing to risk the health and lives of their teammates, the staff,

and the fans simply because they are unable to grasp the seriousness of the situation or do the necessary research. What I find especially disingenuous about the vaccine deniers is there arrogance at disbelieving immunology and other medical experts. Not to put you too much on the spot, but if you had an opportunity to have a coffee with Kareem, what would you like to say about that statement? You know, honestly, I would just share the same stuff that I shared during the press conference, but to hear that quote from him, the first thing that comes on mind is just out of touch

with reality about what's going on, what the science is saying, you know, what everything looks like. So it's hard to have a conversation with somebody and kind of walk them to a compromise or an understanding place when they're so out of touch with what's going on. What doctor said about the fact that the vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission, that to me blows out of the water the argument that you're trying to protect the people around you. And so, you know, if you're healthy and at the end of the day, just to hear something like that about a player that came up in times of when things were much different, the fact that things can be forced on players to do yes or no and their free will be completely taken from them or to lose their

jobs to me, you know, it's just ironic and it doesn't really make sense to me. So it would be hard to have a conversation with him. I mean, a guy who really fought to get out of segregation, I think is a leading, you know, a leading voice for we are all equal. And here, because you share different medical choices and decisions, somehow he's going back to an old school idea that then you should be segregated away from this game. It really is quite shocking. Now, in all of this, in this time that you've had to sort of ponder this, you've gone and decided to write a book.

Here's the title of that book. Why I Stand. Tell me a little bit about this book and why you decided to write it. This book for me, it's really just a story of my life. It's a story of how my faith has played a role in making me the man that I am today and has given me the courage, the boldness, but also the desire to stand up for what it is that I believe in and offer it as an answer to everything that we see. So the main kind of story in the book is about me standing in the bubble last year in the NBA bubble when everybody, you know, kneeled for Black Lives Matter and acknowledgement for, you know, what was going on with Black Lives. And looking over my life, what has helped me, what has transformed me is the love of God.

And I wanted to share that in that moment to say that that is not the only way that we can support black lives. And to me, there was such a pressure to align with what everybody was saying and the tone in which they were saying it with. And so even though I believe that black lives do matter, I didn't believe in the way that things went about. And I wanted to stand up and give my own rationale

for what I believe was truly heal the world. And to me, that's the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so that's what I led with. And then it also has given me, like I said, the boldness and the confidence to stand up for what I believe in. And has, you know, got me to stand up and speak about the vaccine. So the book is about my story. It's about why I chose to stand and giving people the background about who I am and everything that has gone into, you know, what I've stood for. Well, I mean, to our audience out there, I mean, these are the types of books that we should support,

the types of books that we should be bringing as gifts to our friends. We've got to stand behind our heroes. It's due out May 17th, 2022. Put that in your calendar right now. Let's blow that thing up the day that it comes out. You can pre-order it now, which would be fantastic. So go ahead and do that. You can go to Amazon.

There it is. Dr. Kariari, you know, you have teamed up with obviously someone who's getting a lot of attention on this issue. But you both are standing the truth. To me, you're both heroes. You're representing the facts in a time where facts are being censored. How do you see this playing out? Do you think we're going to wake up enough people to sort of transition and see a change? Because, you know, it's in, and where do you think is this going?

Is it really just about vaccines or is there something else? Like, what is behind it when you ask yourself that question? Yeah. So I like to say that reality always bats in the bottom of the ninth inning. And the idea there is that you can try to, you can try to cheat the facts. So you can try to cheat reality with propaganda or with spin for a while. And we've seen that that can be disconcertingly effective. But I think now with this latest variant, now with people having so many personal connections

or personal experience with the reality of what's going on with COVID, the fact that it's going to become endemic, meaning everyone is going to get exposed to COVID. There's no way to avoid the virus. doesn't have to be a big scary thing because treatments are available, especially for those who are liable to get more sick, the very elderly or the frail or the medically ill. And for everyone else, fortunately, this new variant is proving to be quite mild. And people are getting natural immunity. And that natural immunity is going to be strengthened every time down the road that they're

re-exposed to the virus. Do you think that just really quickly, and it just occurred to me, do you the thing? the fact that so many people will now recognize themselves as naturally immune, having had it, whether they were vaccinated or not, that that's going to build the movement behind both of your points that natural immunity is the way forward. I mean, nobody wants to keep getting a vaccine they don't need. So I would imagine we're going to see a lot more people, especially athletes. I mean, Jonathan, you think that athletes that have now caught the virus are going to be down to get a booster shot afterwards, or do you think a lot of them going to say, I've done this?

Oh, hell no, we're moving on. Where do you think we're at, Jonathan, on that? Listen, I've heard plenty, plenty of NBA players share the sentiment that you just said. I got my vaccine. I got my booster and I still got COVID. I'm done. And for me, you know, early on when I got COVID and it was mild for me, even when it wasn't the Omicromberia, that helped me in terms of my own fear of it. I was like, this is a, you know, this is a bad flu or a bad cold or whatever. I'm okay.

And then walking into everything else, I said, okay, I'm not going for this. But for the guys who have gotten the vaccine, the booster and still got COVID, you know, they're done. All right. Dr. Carriotti, Jonathan Isaac, I want to thank you for taking the time to join us today. You're both courageous, your heroes. Dr. Carriotti, do you have a place where we can read, you know, your stories or where we can be following your journey right now? Where's the best website or a place to find your information? Yeah.

So I have a substack newsletter that folks can sign up for. It's called Human Flourishing. that's aaron kariati.substack.com online and I'm posting regular updates on these issues to that to that site. And how about you, Jonathan Isaac? Is there any information you wanted so we can sort of follow your book and the things that you're doing in the future? First off, you guys really want to check out what Aaron just said. It's the same way that I've been hitting them up on DM and asking him a bunch of questions. He goes through them all in his substack. But just social media type in Jonathan Isaac on Instagram.

Twitter, and you'll see what I've been doing. All right. Look, it was really an honor to be joined by both of you. Keep up the good work. I think there's a growing movement. Your heroes, your leaders. And I think we are going to really start to see this thing shift because of those of you that were brave enough to speak out. So keep up the good word and hopefully we get to speak in the future.

Take care. Thanks, Del.