The Hockey PDOcast - A deep dive on the reigning Cup champs with Peter Baugh

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Peter Baugh joins Dimitri in studio as the guys do a full deep dive on the Colorado Avalanche. This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty.  The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Lessing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. To the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dimitra Filippovich and joining me here in studio on this delightful Friday afternoon. It's my good buddy Peter Bob. Peter, what's good on, man? Hey, how are you? I'm good.

It's exciting to have you in studio. We've been planning this for a while. I just finished your book. Oh, thank you. Fantastic. I highly recommend. We'll do all the plugs later. Yeah, of course.

And make sure everyone knows what we're going to do like a little book review. Then we'll talk about the abs as well while they're here. in town. Reading through it, my biggest takeaway was, you know, because we were joking, like, none of it was surprised and I know how it ends, so it wasn't like a dramatic twist at the end. But just seeing you put it all together, it kind of got my brain thinking about how many things need to come together for a team to have the type of season the Colorado Lange had last year. And now already you're seeing it this year with them where it's tough to replicate that.

Obviously, they're going to be judged based on how the postseason goes and there's still a lot of runway between now and then, but just in terms of the first 45 of games or so, like, they were on such a role for pretty much the entirety of last season. They had that stretch in the middle of the year where they just, like, refused to lose any games to anyone. And this year has been a bit of a tougher go of. And it just, it really hammers that point home of like, how magical of a year it was and how difficult it is to do that, especially in today's NHL. Totally. And I mean, like, this season could end the same way. They could get healthy and have a great playoff run. But it has not been a, it has been a bumpy,

regular season at least so far and the first half was bumpy last year there really weren't any bumpy points there was i guess small things that made you wonder like oh are they going to be okay in the playoffs or whatever but for the most part it was pretty smooth sailing they had that i think you mentioned the the in their january i think it's like 50 and one one or something yeah it was a ridiculous record and and it was just they're winning every night i think that the team that actually broke their home win streak was a i which was pretty funny um but they yeah they they they had a Pretty magical year. And then this year they've kind of like been tested a little bit just by guys leaving in free agency because they got paid or injuries or just a mix of stuff.

But it's, it's a yeah, it does kind of go to show like how much has to go right, how well you have to build a team and how you need a little bit of luck to kind of have a full regular and postseason like they did last year. Well, before we dive into it, I don't, I don't want to do like the interview, the intermission segment like interview question. where I'm like, so tell me about, tell me about this period. But like, I want you to tell me about the process of putting this together because obviously you were covering the team on a day-to-day basis last year. So it's not like you were entering it this off season, like kind of starting from scratch, trying to figure, like, you know, you were using a lot of the stuff that you had already had at hand from last year.

But I'm always curious about, like, putting a massive undertaking and project like this together. Give us a little kind of like behind the scenes of how it all comes together and kind of like all of that sort of like beneath the surface type of stuff. Yeah, for sure. So I kind of going into the season, I knew this was like a really good team. And I had kind of thought about if they were to get it done and win a cup, like it would be really fun to kind of do a project where I kind of chronicle at all. And so I kind of the way it came about was I kept really good notes throughout the year just because I like to do that anyway.

And also just kind of in the back of my mind of like it would be good to have an organized like kind of collection of files where I can go back. back and look at like who said what after what game and yeah all that stuff uh and then i think in the edmonton series either after they won the edmonton series or when it became clear that they were at least going to make it to the cup final i reached out to triumph who who did a great job publishing the book for me and and kind of was like i i have this idea um would you be interested and they they were and kind of from there we had it kind of figured out negotiations and stuff like that got it approved from the athletic and then from there it was kind of off to the races and it was two months of calling people and getting new anecdotes and new stories to supplement the stuff I already

had from my reporting during the season and I kind of my goal is to make it not just about the 2021-2020 season but to kind of showcase what it took to get there and the kind of the team building element that I think is interesting to a lot of fans even if the avalanche aren't your team or if you don't have any like strong affiliation. Like I wanted it to be something that could have a bit of a broader audience than just a Colorado Avalanche Superfan, you know? Well, yeah, I think it's pretty easy to even look from a distance and be impressed with the group they were able to put together.

And whenever you win the title, we always joke a lot. It's like a copycat league, right? Like they're going to become the gold standard in terms of all right, how do we replicate the Aves model? Like, what do we do to put ourselves as a different organization in the position they were in? It really was, I'd say kind of like what do you think it's fair to say, like a five or six year Odyssey for them because

I traced the starting point of this as that 2016 17thes. I know that by then they'd already drafted Landis Gogh, McKinn, Randanin. But like that entire Patrick Waugh era before that almost seems like it's kind of like its own little thing in a time capsule. Yes.

Yeah, McKinnon's rookie year, right? Yeah, McKinney's rookie year. Whereas in 2016-17, they hired Jared Bednar. They have 48 points. They finish last, but they get the fourth overall and take Kel McCar. You know, it was like the first year of Nathan McKinnons what wound up being an incredibly

massive weapon for them in terms of building this team where they were paying him $6.3 million, which is significantly below market value. And, you know, also I guess that culminated with Matt Dushain. It got so bad that he asked for the trade and then eventually the next year they were able to get what wound up being Sam Gerard and Bowen Byron and Bauer and multiple other things for him in return as well.

So it kind of feels like this was the culmination of that odyssey from, 2016-17-17 to last year even though you were necessarily around for the start of it covering the team that's what you mean in terms of like it wasn't just this one year kind of blip where it's like oh everything came together and these guys got super lucky and won a title it's like this was building not necessarily slowly but like five or six years depending on your perspective can either be a really long time or a pretty quick turnaround yeah i mean it also shows i i think i kind of i i would agree that that was kind of the that was the range of time i wanted to

show in the book. Obviously, there were some lookbacks to Landerskog's early tenure and stuff like that, but that era right there is such an interesting time where they kind of hit rock bottom and then they start to build. And I think the 2017-2018 season for the Avalanche, well, if you look at hockey reference isn't a super memorable season. I think that was a really important season. The first year they make the playoffs, McKinnon takes the jump. They trade Dushain. And it was a really special year for that team because I think just getting into the playoffs for that group after what they went through the year before was was really, really important. And the fact that it came down to that season, if you remember, came down to like the last game between them and St. Louis and the winner was

going to go to the playoffs and they won game 82. And so it was kind of a nice culmination. And that kind of from then it just became, all right, so this is, this chorus shown it can make it to the place. How do you take the next step? And that next step took a few years. There's a lot of like heartbreak and sometimes it's it does feel like sometimes teams need kind of to take those punches before they can really get to the next level and get over the hump and the abs definitely had some heartbreak well you know what from a storytelling perspective I'm sure like you selfishly don't mind that in the sense that like it's it's it's neat to tell that story in terms of like you know paying your dues and the heart break and like learning how to like win and lose in the playoffs before

you're ready like for me personally I I really dislike that trope in hockey. Not that it's not true, but I think young players in particular, like we've learned how like age and curves generally your peak seasons are earlier than we might have thought previously. We used to think it's like, oh, 30 years old,

that's when you're going to become good. It's like, no, probably like 22 to 24 years old. You're going to, if you're really good, we're going to know. And so I like it when young teams kind of surprise us in terms of taking that next step immediately and not necessarily winning a cup right out of the gate, but like fast-tracking that process a little bit as opposed to this gradual sort of build where it excuses a lot of conservatism and mediocrity

in terms of team building where it's like, oh, we're not ready yet, so we're not going to make a big trade. And I think teams sometimes do themselves a disservice or miss their window to be really aggressive right out of the gate. I think both things can be true. Yeah. Like I think that there is like a tendency to to maybe hold on to trade ships or whatever because it's like, oh, well, we don't know if this is the, at a certain point, like these windows don't always last as long as you think they're going to last. You can look across a lot of different sports and see that. But I do think if you look at like recent champions, like there's generally some heartbreak

along the way to get there. And it's funny, Jared Bednar, I remember going into the cup season. He kind of said, like, I always hate the idea of like, you need a little heartbreak, but maybe, and he kind of said, but maybe it might be true. Yeah. I think one of his friends said to him in that offseason after they lost to Vegas, like, this is the hockey gods testing you. like, like, and, and they stuck with their process and they did kind of with a relatively young core, making all in push at the deadline, traded some good young pieces and,

and ended up winning a cup. Well, yeah, and that's the other thing I was thinking about, like, what a ruthless sport it can be in terms of that exactly where all we ultimately care about is who wins the Stanley Cup in a way, right? Like, there's certainly everyone from the third one through 32 in the league has a different, you know, objective or goal for this season. But years down the line, we're only really going to remember, like, who won the cup. Unless you get into a situation and the abs were getting dangerously close into this territory

of becoming the team known for, like, falling short, having great regular seasons, then losing in spectacular fashion or in highly disappointing fashion the way they had for three years in a row. And so that can be frustrating because teams can be great and do all the right stuff in terms of putting together the right personnel, winning a ton of games. And yeah, you win the president's trophy. You get a home ice advantage to the playoffs. But ultimately, we for every reason, don't really seem to care that much about that.

Like, it's not really a prize that much, just having that extra home game at the end of a series. Whereas in some other sports, like, it's like regular season matters a lot more. In the NHL, it's like one team wins the cup. That's what we care about. They become the goal standard. They become the roughbook on the model. Everyone else kind of just falls to the wayside over time. And I think that's the same with a lot of sports.

I mean, I know as like a, I grew up a big baseball fan. I'm from St. a big Cardinals fan. And I've, I've kind of, like, tried to train myself to, I got really lucky as a kid and had the 2006 World Series and the 2011 World Series. But I've, I've kind of tried to, like, retrain my brain to, like, take more joy in the, I guess, journey of the teams that maybe don't go on to win it, but still, like, bring you good memories. And it's, it's kind of hard, because you are kind of condition of, like, if you're not first, you're last, and then you kind lose some of the joy but um like even in those heartbreaking seasons for the abs like there were some

a lot of really cool moments along the way and special times that those players will remember but like you said at the end of the day but like general public kind of the avs teams they remember are the team that won the cup and potentially win cups in the future yeah okay well let's get into some of the individual kind of characters here i really want to talk about nathan mcina we could probably do a full full show on and one of the most interesting people in the league to me i'm obsessed his development over the years and like what he represents now. So, you know, I mentioned that contract earlier. He's playing under $6.3 million team friendly for years.

He finally got paid. Next year, I'll kick in and it'll be much more kind of equivalent to what the value he probably provides to the team. On the one hand, the abs were incredibly lucky in the sense that the timing worked out where he had these like first three or four years of just horrible shooting luck. Some of it was self-inflicted. Like I've talked about on the show before, the form in terms of technique was there was a reason why he was struggling to score and then he

adjusted that and then he takes off once he's already signed that contract so I think there's some luck involved certainly but there's also patience and all that as well in your dealings with mckinin like do you feel like the the perception of him in terms of like the intensity and like everything that's characterized around him is true or like you because because you were certainly hinting at it a bit in the book in terms of like especially the diet stuff or like how like much of a maniac he can be in terms of like skipping desserts and stuff like that. So I'm really curious about that because like off the ice and on the ice, there's two kind of separate things here we can talk about.

Yeah, I think there's nuance to it. Like Nathan McKinnon is a really, really intense person. Like especially when it comes to hockey, he cares a lot. He works really hard. And he kind of, I think especially after those first few years where he maybe didn't feel like he was living up to the player he knew he could be, he really bought into like all sorts of different elements in his life where like he hired a personal trainer that like moved to Denver who works really closely with him he he really honed in on his

diet and kind of started doing all these little things because he was like I'm not the player I should be and I want to get better so so and that's true and and and he can be harsh with teammates and like like kind of how he he talks to them and stuff like that and like you'll even see it on the ice in practice where he'll like if he's frustrated with something a teammate does he's not afraid to to like yell at them about it but i i think that the avalanche kind of know that like the players know that and kind of he's he's just he is who he is like i don't think he's a jerk like he's he certainly like well it certainly seems well-intentioned on his part like he just wants everyone to be better yeah and and like he can be i think he can be short and hard

A bit abrasive sometimes. Abraceous sometimes. But, like, I think that generally is, like, his heart is in the right place. And the results are kind of hard to argue with. I mean, he's had a lot of success. Well, you have a line in there. So I wrote down my three favorite sentences from the book. One of them is related to this.

Okay. McKinnon describes his younger self as a bit of a psychopath. That is one. Second one. These aren't related. The other ones aren't related to me. Okay. Who is this guy?

You don't know kale bro? Connor said. He's pretty nasty. And, and this one just, Curtis McDermid wasn't the avalanche's best hockey player in 2021, 2021, 2022. I just love that because it was just such like, and then you obviously talked about in terms of like the fighting and in terms of like the leadership stuff and everyone loves them.

Of course, no, I totally. Yeah. But it was really funny because it was like this like sentence to start off a paragraph and I was just like, hey, I can't dispute that. Actually, that is an accurate statement. He was not their best. Yeah. Here's the thing about McKinnett.

So for strict as, you know, the jokes about the chickpea past out or whatever and like like how strict his like caloric intake is in terms of that and and and i thought you had a really interesting piece there which which part of this conversation which you just mentioned as well in terms of like how much he's invested into improving himself physically in terms of keeping himself in the best shape possible in terms of the recovery in terms of all of that what doesn't get talked about enough is i think like how much he's also invested in himself off the ice in terms of like preparation yeah from like the mental part of things from skill development to like every off season identifying things that

are either dragging behind or he feels like are keeping them from reaching that next level to join the McDavid's of the world and then like maniacally striving to do that under like under any circumstance necessary right and he puts so much work into speaking with like Delo Belfrey who works with him personally like how much tape study he does and like how like he's like breaking down every single little component of his game and And just it's part of being a pro. And so I don't think like every player should be doing that at least some capacity. But it's clearly like I think a differentiator for why he's been able to to reach the level he has beyond just the skating and the force and the power and how strong he is and like all the physical gifts that he's been given.

The amount of work he puts in on the other stuff is a key part of the story that I think kind of gets lost in the shuffle sometimes. Totally. I mean, he cares a lot. Like you can see that and you could see as this is not a guy who. after winning his first cup was going to get complacent. You know, like this year, he's had some injury stuff, but he's been awesome when he's been on the ice. Like he's a really dominant player.

And clearly it wasn't one of those things where he was like, all right, I got my cup. I'm good now. It's he still. Well, has never hit 100 points in an NHL season. Yeah, which is weird. And despite all the time he's missed so far this year, he needs, I believe, 51 points in his final 39 games.

Yeah. Which is below the pace he's produced at. this season. So doable now, I think the avalanche probably don't want him playing all 39 of those games. I think, you know, if you get in some truth serum, they're going to hope the next, like, 30 go well enough that the final couple weeks they can start doing some role management and stuff. I don't think they want him going all out for all those games. But I think I'd imagine, like he's a team player and I think like winning a Stanley Cup is all that matters. But I imagine, without having spoken to it selfishly, like he would like to get to 100 points.

I think so. I mean, I think, yeah, it's funny a lot. I don't think, I don't know if anyone on the abs has hit 100 points. Rantanan hasn't. McCar hasn't like it's it's funny that that there's always some like weird like Rantnan was probably going to get there last year but he got sick the last like couple weeks of the season and that stopped him he was going to be like the first finish player since T. Mislani did do it just didn't work out. Nate there's usually an injury that like keeps him out like 10 or so games or something that'll stop him but if he's healthy enough to play like you would think what 35 of the next 39 games he'll probably get there.

Well, one thing I'm really fascinated about is like there's certainly enough room for both of them to shine to their brightest. But last year during the postseason, I was really interested by the dynamics of just because of the level Kail McCar was playing at. Yeah. That became like such a natural talking point for everyone to gravitate towards. And then McKinnon was producing and playing remarkably well and especially like defensively had really grown as a player. But it was getting much less attention, right? And so it was kind of like allowing to sort of do it. thing a bit behind, like out of the spotlight a little bit as it was going on. And then once they

got to the Stanley Cup final, everything becomes dissected under microscope that much more. And he wasn't scoring goals for the first handful of games. And I remember like that became a big story. And then he finally got the monkey of his back and scored. But it was like it bounced off his no. Yeah, of course. But he was getting so many chances that like generally that'll happen. That's why we say stick with the process. Right. But he can still for as great as he is, I think sometimes he can get himself in trouble with like the overhandling just because it's like he does everything. at 10 times regular human speed. And it's easy to say like, hey, just slow down a little bit.

But that's kind of what makes him special. So it's like he almost can't turn that switch off. Exactly. But when you get into that setting, I was really curious to see like how he would handle that because that you would think would be like a potential like trigger for him to start doing that that much more. And I actually thought he had navigated that really well.

Like maybe he was nervous and gripping his stick a bit. And that's why he wasn't scoring. But I really like, I was impressed by the way he had handled that. that and the way that came together for him and maybe the fact that he had McCar playing as well as he has and helping, you know, alleviate some of that pressure, help played into that as well. But I was really curious about that sort of like his path during last year's postseason and like the trajectory he kind of went on there. Totally.

He had, yeah, it was funny because he had a great postseason. Like if you look at his numbers, they were really, really good. And he scored some big, he scored in big moments. He scored, obviously the St. Louis goal didn't end up. winning the game, but what looked like the goal that was going to send him to the third round. Can we like rewrite history and just act as if like that was like the end of that series? Yeah, it's like he's willing the team. I'm sure Darren Helm wouldn't love if we take that route, but yeah.

Yeah, but he had like that goal. He had the game tying goal in game six of the cup final. I think he had the he had a big, the game time goal in game four against Edmonton. Like you can look through and he had big moments. Obviously, Caleb McCart kind of stole the show last year. And I think, I don't think Nate minded too much, honestly. Like, I think he, obviously, I think he wants to be regarded, like, as one of the best players in the world. Like, I do think that that matters.

But I also think he wants to win. And I think he's perfectly content. I think he even said at one point, like, during, like, I think it was during the Nashville series, he said, like, Kale might be the best player in the world or something like that. Like, he's perfectly fine kind of heaping praise onto Kale. and to calling it. He'll always say he's the best defenseman in the world, like all that stuff. And I think part of that might just be because Kale's also so like mild-mannered. And like, it's not like, I don't know, it's not like their personalities clash or anything like that. And I don't even know if that would be a problem, even if they both had kind of the

kind of big ultra-aggress, like if they both were McKinnons. But I think it works nicely that one's kind of more the reserved quiet like um and he kale like will speak up and stuff in the room and stuff but but Nate's kind of the obviously the more intense one and then you kind of have landis God kind of that bounces everything out he's kind of like a lot of people like they love landa Scott like as the players like he's kind of as I think Nate called him the perfect captain once and he he seems to be well where does Renton and fit into that because you know he was he's been their best player of the season. He's awesome. And, um, and, you know, he finally got in with the fan voting, I believe,

for the All-Star, right? But, um, Kill McCar was there kind of like a sign representative and understandably so. Um, and then he was quick to come out and be like, I, I really think it should have been, should have been ranting. And I mean, his, his, his, the way he carried the team for a couple weeks there, especially, where like, he had 29 minute games every once in a while. You're just like, all right, this is not human. Um, I'm really here. How does, how does he fit into that? Because it like we don't necessarily get to like see or hear from him too much if you know what I mean in a way just because those guys get so much of the attention but like meanwhile he's just been putting the team on the back and kind of carrying them for large stretches he's he's a leader on the team I mean

wore an a last year and he's uh he's wearing an a again this year and has honestly been like kind of one of the guys that after the tough losses he's one of the guys who always has to talk you know like he really is taking on more of a leadership role I think as he's gotten older and more comfortable and kind of now he's one of the longest tenured players on the team all that stuff he's uh yeah he he's i i've mentioned that with or i think bed and arm mentioned at one point recently that with landisog out this year like rantan's had to be a bit more vocal and he's kind of taken that responsibility and done well with it so he he definitely is he's um yeah he's part of the leadership core he's part of the core of the team and and i think he and Nate know that there's room for

both of them. They make each other better. Like, if you have a great winger and a great, if you're a winger and you're going to benefit from each other. And they're both so creative. And it's, it's really fun to watch. Yeah. All right. Peter, we're going to take a quick break here. And then when we come back, we're going to keep talking about the avalanche and your book and all that good stuff. You were listening to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming on the Sports Net Radio Network. All right. We're back here on the Hockeypedio cast. Peter, let's keep talking about your book. Let's keep talking about the abs. So I really enjoyed all the McKinnon stuff.

We have to talk about Bowen Byron. And the reason why I'm transitioning was such a somber tone is because reading some of the sections on him was tough. I know it's like none of it's like necessarily new in the sense of like during last year, you wrote about his kind of struggles with post-concussion syndrome and sort of getting back on the ice and the journey that he went on and how many struggles were and how at times he thought he might never play again, right? and reading some of that and just like kind of more in more detailed fashion just like reading

through all of that was was an important read but also like a bit of a challenging one for me yeah it was challenging to report on it was challenging for him and his family for sure like that's just one of those things where you just want like the person to be okay of like he's obviously so young and he was dealt a really rough hand of like like health for the I guess 20 21 calendar year like it was a lot of in a concussion and then setbacks and then more setbacks and I think that it was obviously that's physically draining but mentally draining too especially if you've like your kind of whole life you've wanted to get to this level and be a hockey player and then all of a sudden it feels like that's kind of being

taken from taken from you it's it's tough and he was I was really grateful for when I did that reporting, I guess, early in the season. It actually was, he got another concussion after all of our interviews, but he was really like open and kind of authentic in a way that I appreciated and thought that spoke really highly of his character, like his willingness to talk about kind of what he went through and getting back to where he is, obviously. And yeah, it was important stuff. Well, over the past three regular seasons, he has only been able to play 59 of 181 avalanche games. Now he's played 10 games this year. It's been with a lower body injury that he's been out for.

So clearly an important differentiator. But does tie into my larger point of like how selfishly, of course, you like want him to like mentally be healthy and happy and being able to play hockey. But like selfishly as a viewer, I just want to see him playing because he's so good and so fun to watch. And he's also like, what we saw from him last postseason in particular after Sam Girard went out and they sort of entrusted him with a bigger responsibility, more ice time, culminating in the Stanley Cup final where he led everyone in the entire series in 5-on-5 usage, which is remarkable because it's a series that featured Kail McCarr and Devon Taves and Hedman and McDonagh and Sierich and so on and so forth. Now, those guys had more special teams usage than him, but when it mattered most, and I think, I believe in the clincher in game six, he played the most out of any. anyone. Yeah, maybe tapes. Oh, maybe more. But yeah, he played like 25 plus minutes. He was, they were, they were riding him. And, and he delivered. He was fantastic. Like, I, I did some tracking throughout the pros throughout that series. He was amongst the series

leaders in terms of the amount of shots he set up for teammates. Like, he had all these assists, but if you go back and watch it with a number of times, like, he hit the post or he would do this cross-scene pass where it would just be an empty net for like Eric Johnson or someone. And they miss or get, get saved. He easily could have had, like, twice as many points as he was. wound up with in the post season. So it doesn't even do justice, like, how productive he was. And then you factor in how dominant he was in transition, breaking the puck out, defending against entries, like, everything across the board.

He was so good. And I just want, like, I want to watch him every night, full season, full season without any restrictions. And so all, like, the stopping and starting in the injuries, I mean, I'm sure, I can't imagine for him how frustrating it must be. But just, like, for me as a viewer, I just, can we please just get a clean bill of help for 82 games from this guy while he's roughly around this age. So as physicality, at his best,

so I can just see all of it over the course of like an extended period of time. Yeah, he's pretty special. Like as a player, I think you, he's hopefully, I think the timeline, it seems like is after the All-Star break. He should be getting pretty close. Like, he's been skating and stuff. So that's encouraging. But yeah, he's, he was unreal in that cup run.

and you mentioned like he could have had like at least i can think of at least two posts he hit in big moments like i think he he um i want to say he hit the crossbar in overtime of game five when cadry or game four when cadry scored his like comeback goal or whatever like that biram hit a crossbar shortly before that and i think he hit the post in game six and he so it's there is a world in which bow and byram had the overtime winner in game four and the cup winning goal in game six in that series. So he was really special. And like you said,

like every part of his game held up. Defensively, he was sound. Offensively, he was obviously dynamic. He assisted. He had the primary assist on McKinnon's game tying goal in game six. Like just it really kind of was a, you kind of saw this person who had all this talent that you always knew was there. And he was,

he rose to the moment. And what I thought was cool was that the avalanche kind of let him rise to the moment. They weren't like, oh, this guy's only 21 years old. We've got to like heat a little caution. They're like, no, he's playing great. Like he's going to keep playing. And he played a ton of minutes and was great. Yeah.

Well, and so what, he turns 22 in June. Yeah. He's going to be an RFA. So he's up for a new deal. I'm really, I mean, I think what happens between him coming back after the All-Star break or whenever he does. to the off season will determine some of this. I'm really curious to see how both parties proceed

in terms of that extension and like how, what the commitment is and also like what he himself is willing to take because like I would I would bet on the talent 10 times out of 10. But when you've played, what I said, 59 out of 181 games or something, there's like a bit of concern there as well in terms of like the certainty. So it's one of those things where like you try to balance the security

of a long-term deal versus the upside of like, how much you could probably be paid in your prime based on the skill set that he has. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating because, yeah, if he comes back after the All-Star Break has a good end of the season and plays how he did last playoffs, again, these coming playoffs, if the Avs make it, then you're looking at a guy who you could, I mean, he played like a top pair defenseman in the playoffs. Like he was, he was at times the Ab's best defenseman in certain games in the biggest games of the year.

So it is, that is a, an interesting, I'm very curious to see how it goes. and it's like it's pretty much impossible to make a projection for what his next contract is going to look like just because he, we don't know where he's going to be at health-wise, but like you said, all the talent's there. And if he comes back like they,

in the timeline they think he could, he could be in position to kind of play himself into a little bit more money depending on how he plays. Yeah. Well, speaking of a guy who used last postseason to play himself on a bit of money, Big Val-Lanchuskin.

Yeah. How is that for a segue? That's why I'm a broadcasting. Yeah, I like. man do I love this guy um I was actually I was hoping there would be more vile Natchushkin content there was a short section and I was worried because I got to like page 200 and I was like there's been a noticeable lack of of Nachushkin here and then you had a bit of a section in there on him but I mean you could honestly write a full book just on the the glow up

that he had and sort of the the rise that he had last post season and I should say like he's been in another lineup this year, but you see when he's playing how valuable he is and how he just unlocked so much for his team and what a different group they are with him. And he's been, I mean, the scoring touch combined with the off buck play has certainly

carried over as well this year. So I don't think, I don't want to like, I didn't want to frame it as like, he just had this remarkable postseason and played his way into much money because I think like that's legitimately the type of player that he is. But I mean, it all came together for him last postseason in such a magnificent way. Yeah. And really,

all of last season when he was on the ice he was he was phenomenal i think he had a 25 goal season and yeah he's a really really good hockey player and you know i think the abs were comfortable giving him that deal because it's like at the very least even if his scoring touch doesn't continue to improve or even regresses a little bit the contract's probably worth it because he's so good defensively um his forechecking is so relentless um and then there's every reason to believe that his scoring touch will continue to be good or remain the same because he is a really hard worker. And yeah, not having a ton in the book, so Val is a very private guy. Unless you catch him in the sauna. Unless, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, Jack Johnson was talking. He'll chat all the time. So maybe he's

less private with his teammates. But he's, yeah, he's very pleasant, but he doesn't always like to do interviews. So it's, that was one limiting factor. Whereas if I, if I had more time with the book, I would have loved to have kind of dug more into it because I do find him to be really interesting. And like you said, just going from being a player in Dallas who got bought out of his contract to being a, I mean, he was probably, honestly, he was probably their third best forward in the playoffs because Rantnan was, he was coming off that end of season sickness. Yeah. He never, he didn't really get his stride until the third round, I feel like. Natushkin was kind of a constant, like, force throughout all of it. Well, I was going to say,

You know, the Kahn-Smith is a post-season award. Yeah. Whereas, like, in the NBA, it's finals MVP. In NFL, it's Super Bowl MVP just for, like, the final series, right? If the NHL had an equivalent for that, McCar probably still would have won it because it was just, like, there was no denying his star value. But, Nitchiechkin was our best player against Tampa Bay, I think,

like from start to finish. And then that's before you contextualize game six where he's playing on one foot And he's saying that he probably couldn't even play game seven if they had to wait till then just because like the pain would have been too intolerable. And for him to do so with that in mind and then how he had to play to be effective, which was just like pressuring consistently at all times and going so hard. Just remarkable. Like I, I, when he signed the contract this offseason, I think there was a certain amount of pushback because people were like, oh, I can't believe they just paid for one postseason worth. And that was that kind of narrative. and then it's like, do you watch the postseason, particularly the Stanley Cup final?

Like what he did, the Tampa Bay Lightning defensemen, some really good defensemen, by the way, was just absolutely single-handedly terrorized him. Like, the forgecking was just through the roof. And if you look at the regular season, like he was doing that all regular season. And he's, I mean, he's kind of, he was building towards this point. He kind of came to the abs after the stars bought him out. He reestablished his value as like a good, at least a good third. line player. It was kind of like he moved up a line every year almost. Like he, he, he started,

he came to the abs and was kind of a fourth line guy. Then he, the next year he got a chance as a third line guy. Then a top six guy. And now it's like, you don't know if he's, I mean, when you have Atlantic Sky McKinnon and Ranton, and he's maybe not one of the teams three best forwards. But he's certainly, like you said, in the cup final, he has potential to, when he's at his best, he's as good as maybe not anyone, but he's really, really good. No, I mean, he was just such a destructive force. And also for all of the skill and talent this team has, I think it is important to note that I think what separated them was their ability in big moments to just like completely lock you down completely. And in that clincher against Tampa Bay, they go into the third period up to one,

right? And they give them four shots. Yeah. An entire period. And there was like a 15 minute stretch where you'd think, all right, your season's on the line, you're at home. Tampa's going to give them a push here. And they like simply could not complete. a pass, it seemed like. And that was, I think, for everything that the abs do great offensively, that was like the calling card at the end of the day, I think. That period, I think Boid Byerman is like on the ice after I asked him about that period. And he's like, obviously on kind of this emotional high of like he's just won it. He was like, I think that was the best, like, I forget exactly what the quote was, but he's like, that might have been the best close out period in the

history of hockey. And I was like, honestly, You might be right. Like it was maybe the abs could have scored a couple goals and it would have looked better on the scoreboard. Right. But like Vasilevsky was still playing at an elite level and he kind of kept Tampa in the game. But like that period just was the whole time it was Colorado shot, Colorado shot, getting the puck away from Tampa. And then when they needed it, Darcy Kemper made a big save against Kutrov with like six,

seven minutes left. But for the most part, it was Kemper didn't have to do all that much in that stretch. Oh, man. So we talk about how like the aves are like the copycat. You copy their model. It bugs me so much that the two biggest takeaways I've identified from this are they had to like pay their dues in the postseason and they had to become really good defensively because those are like my two least favorite things. Whenever the team like the Leafs or something struggles, right? And then it's like oh they got to like do these two like old school hockey things like and it's like I really just wasn't the case.

But that's kind of what happened here. But also it's like get good defensively. a lot of the times for the abs, you might like this more was like a lot of it, especially was just having the puck. Having the puck. Like they just like Tampa didn't have the puck and like maybe that's not defensive though, I guess old school sense, but that's kind of how Colorado played. Like they had possession a lot of the time and they were going to wear you down and Tampa.

So it was kind of like whenever Tampa, they'd have Tampa in their zone and then whenever Tampa would get the puck out, they would have to change because their guys were tired because they'd been playing defense. So it was, so I think you can take a positive. Okay, that's good. Thank you for saving me from what would have been a headache for sure. I mean, no, you're right. Like they would, and they still do when they're humming when they're at their best. Their best defensive work comes in the offensive zone. Yeah. And it's like as soon as the other team gets the puck, that's when it starts, right? You don't wait to get deep in your own zone before you start trying to block shots and trying to defend that way. I mean, there was, um, there was a play recent.

in their last game against Calgary that I was going to send you and I forgot to. It was Branton's first goal. Yeah. And how that play starts is I think they had a shot or something on net. And then Tanev gets it in front of his own net. And he tries to break the puck out of the zone with like a short pass to Jonathan Hubertoe who's stationed at the circle. And in the meantime, while he's sending the pass over to him, Devon Taves, darts down from the point, knocks it away right to J.D. Comfer who passes at the rant and he wants him scoring.

And he got an assist on the play. I afterwards, I kept name searching Devon Taves on Twitter to see if someone would comment on the play. And maybe it happens so he's so good at it and he's done it so many times now over the past couple years that it's like the lust, the shines kind of worn off a bit in terms of like people being amazed by it. You just take it for granted in a way. But that is like when you're wondering, all right, how are they avs so good? What makes them special? How has Dev's been able to do this? that clip is like the perfect embodiment and encapsulation of everything that makes him special when they're at their best.

Totally. Yeah, he's he's another guy that in the, he just so rarely makes mistakes. Yeah. And then he also has this upside of like he also could really shoot the puck and is a good puck mover. But like he does so many little things and then can also do things like jump in and break up a pass that leads to a random goal. I'm kind of curious. Let's end on this. Let's spin it forward.

So there's obviously a lot of games to be, or I guess a certain segment of games to be played before the trade-of-line that I think will dictate the direction they go in. But our pal and your esteemed colleague, Don Lusgishin, currently has them at 81% to make the playoffs. Which is up. It was like 73%, I think, a couple of them. Well, winning three straight games and outscoring the opposition 17 to 4 in the time. It helps boost that, certainly. You know, I think, as I said,

Valentruchin coming back totally changes the equation for them. They still have guys missing. I'm really curious because, you know, they still have two games on the schedule moving forward against Dallas, Minnesota, and the Jets. Now, I don't think they'll catch Dallas. The gap is too far, but I do think they can play themselves,

not just from a wildcar perspective, but legitimately back into the central race here. So I think part of how their decision-making will be predicated based on how they wind up playing, and if they keep winning games, I imagine that'll incentivize them to become more aggressive. But I'm kind of curious for your, like, do you have a feel on the pulse in terms of like what they're thinking is right now and how they're going to approach these next couple

weeks from a talent acquisition perspective? Yeah, I think kind of like you said, it's a lot of it is going to come down to just how the next little stretch goes. Because there's, I think I identified, someone asked me this question in a mailbag I did. And I kind of posed like three questions that the abs are going to have to ask themselves, which is one, how much cap space are they going to have? And that's going to be a limiting factor for a ton of teams around the league. And yes, you can find ways to mitigate that by getting in a third party or whatever in it. But it's difficult. Two, where are they in the standings?

Like, are they, has this three-game win streak been more who they are than the previous, like, seven losses in eight games? Like, are they moving in the right direction, all that? And then three, where are they health-wise? Like, is Landisog right now they think is going to be back? Like, that's kind of their belief. but if they if that changes and they don't think that they're going to get landa scygg back can you really go all in like maybe they would want to like it's it's tough because he's so important so i think if the answer to the if they keep moving up the standings and if they're confident landiskeg comes back i could i think they'll be aggressive well i think it was it was this week i was listening to a a jerry bedner a sound bite and it sure seemed without any inside information like he's he was preparing everyone for the fact that Gabriel Lionscog will be ready for game one of the NHL post season and not prior.

Yeah, I don't, it's tough because I don't, I really don't think that the, if that happens, I don't think it will be Gabe Landisag playing at 100%. Like, I don't think they're going to be trying to like fudge the injury to like make it. Because, I mean, even with Tampa and Kuturov, like the NHL like was investigating and checking in on like, he just happened to become healthy. It just happened. Yeah, but they were checking, like, does the timeline match with all that? So I don't think that they're going to try and game the system with that, but like,

if Landis Scott physically can play, he's going to play. Yeah. Like last postseason, he was not 100%. He probably wasn't close to 100%. That's probably why he's still out this year is because last postseason he played on a kind of messed up knee that hadn't fully recovered from surgery. Right. And was really good. But yeah.

Which is not concerning. I mean, it is concerning, but you do want to approach it with caution because they made a significant investment in him as well, long term, very recently, right? Yeah. So it's one of those things where it's like, okay, if this starts bleeding into next season and then this becomes like a recurring thing, that's a problem as well. This team is in its cup window now, so I think like the short term is what matters the most clearly. But you do need to take a bit of a longer term view with your captain and such an important player. Yeah, it's interesting. It'll be, Arturi Lechinen has still never played a regular season game with Gabe Laidoscog, which is funny to think about.

Is that true? Yeah, he got knee surgery, I think in like February or early March before the trade deadline, was out until game one of the national series and then has been out all this year. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Well, I mean, Lekonin is becoming like a legitimate. him at 25 goalscorer now. So it's becoming less of a novelty of him just exclusively scoring goals that send

you to the Stanley Cup final. But I mean, obviously an awesome player, but like him erupting in those spots offensively in particular was hilarious. And now he's just doing it all. And I think the abs deserves some credit for, especially in their cup run, like not hesitating to put, like I mentioned that with Byron. Like he was playing well, so they played him more minutes. and they let that continue.

Lackinan, they put him with McKinnon and Rantan. Like, like, that's, so is, has who he is as a player changed? Or has who he's played with him change? Right, his situation. And it's probably a mix. Like, it's, it's probably he's worked on things, gotten a little bit better at finishing. But it also is a lot easier to finish when Nathan McKinnon and Mika Rantan

are your line mates, you know? And you see that this year with Evan Rodriguez. Like the abs currently have him on the top line, and he's putting up really good numbers. this year yeah no he's been fantastic um yeah i kind of wish well along those lines i i wish i wish there had been a bigger eric parnass section i wish too it was just a passing comment i was like yeah i know he's so good and i uh it's sometimes it was i i think the the abs like to i guess stay tight-lipped yeah and maybe limit who talks how much the mark of a good organization i would say

yeah like some other ones in the league yeah i i definitely understand it as a journalist it is like it would be sometimes I'd like it would be great if these people talk to more but it's Eric is is for people who don't know he does he's kind of the head of the analytics department on the abs and his former like regular PDO cast guest really yeah I didn't know that yeah that's awesome and it's in its infancy in its first couple seasons wow well he's still listening hi Eric like of course he is yeah yeah he's um but yeah really excellent at his job and pretty cool story of how he kind of went from, I guess, doing the power play project where he's kind of logging all the power play

data. He went from that to kind of getting his foot in the door with NHL teams and then working his way into a full-time position. And I mean, who knows where he's going to be in the next couple decades, you know, like he's a smart guy. And if I was running an organization, like, I'd take a look. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, you raise the point of like, and, you know, Joe Zach certainly deserves credit. I think for surrounding himself with the right people as well, like for all of his own acumen, like I think acknowledging what you need to get better at or what your own limitations or biases might be. And then surrounding yourself with other voices is a big part of the job.

And he's obviously done that remarkably well. And this avalanche team, like, yeah, they've drafted really high and they got a bunch of these guys in premium draft slots. They've also done a fantastic job of identifying players on other teams. And then the talent acquisition in that regard. And also less so now just because when you have this many good players, you wind up having to pay them. And the flexibility kind of goes financially. But for a while there.

Berkovsky. A lot of what they did was having draft capital, having cap space, and then going out and just cherry picking players from other teams that they liked. Yeah, Devon Taves and Andre Bergowski, like, Brandon Saad. Obviously, they didn't win the cup that year. But like he was a really good player that they kind of were like, this guy is going to fit right in. And he did.

And yeah, they are good at that. And they still kind of do that. just they have to be like lecinen's an example but they've got the cap space is shrinking they can't use that as a weapon anymore because they're right up against it all right peter well this is a blast this is the part of the show where i'll let you plug the book where people can check it out and where people can check out your work in general moving forward we've been talking about it all show i'm sure hopefully people that have tuned in are like oh this sounds pretty interesting i'll check it out so let them know where they can find it yeah so the book's called force of nature um you can get

it on Amazon, both in the U.S. and Canada. It's in most Barnes & Noble. It's in the Denver area in the U.S. and you can order it online. And then I think Chapters is the Canadian version, and you can order it online through chapters. So, yeah, I would appreciate anyone who wants to give it a read. And I'd like to think that it, like we talked about, kind of can teach people things just about the structuring of hockey teams, even if the abs aren't a team you

particularly care about. Oh, I enjoyed it. so I highly recommend it. This is a blast man. It was good to have you in studio and catch up with you. We'll certainly have you back on the show in the future. Thank you to listeners for checking out the PDOCAST for another week. That marks the end of it.

Now we'll be back on Monday with more. So until then, thank you for listening to the HockeyPediocast on the Sportsnet Radio Network.