The Hockey PDOcast - Adjustments for Cooley and Fantilli in Year 2, and Behind the Scenes Trade Deadline Stories

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Steve Peters to break down changes Logan Cooley and Adam Fantilli have made in Year 2 to pop offensively, and share behind the scenes trade deadline stories from his time with the Coyotes. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

It's the Hockey P.DOCADO cast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name is Demetri Fulipovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Steve Peters. Steve, what's coming? And just another sunny day in Arizona. Is the sunshining there, Dmitri? It is somewhat.

It's pretty cold for Vancouver standards. We're getting in the low negatives here. So it's a bit brisk, but it's nice. Whenever it's not raining, it's just a totally different vibes. I really can't complain. You can do this job remote, Dmitri. Just let you know. They do have internet down here in Arizona.

You could just jump out a plane to hang out down here. You know what I was thinking about? I took a couple weeks or like 10 days off or so around the holidays, went to Mexico, and I had a great time disconnecting a little bit. But I was like, you know what? I could see myself just living from here and just still doing the podcast and pretending like nothing's changed while just enjoying the side. But it's too tempting.

It's the fact that it's cold. Sometimes rainy makes me want to stay inside and watch hockey. So no real distractions. All right. it's a joyous occasion whenever we have you on it's been too long since we got the chat we're going to make up for that here today with a very fun show we've got planned broken it down to two segments we're going to start off talking about what we've seen from the utah hockey club here recently because in some ways in my opinion it's been the perfect encapsulation of their season as a whole

right they started this highly promising seven game homestand a while back with a and then it's like a series of just backbreaking losses to the islanders the habs the rangers three games that i really felt in watching them, they should have at least come away with something, both in terms of playing well enough, but also holding leads late into the second and the third period in those games. And they squandered it. And then just when you're getting ready to kind of write this team off and be like, all right, well, it's another lost season. They're not going to live up to the potential and the hope we had for them. They come back, they rattle off three consecutive, pretty impressive wins, in my opinion, against the Jets, Blues, and Wild most recently, where they're just

all over them from the jump. And now all of a sudden, this stretch has them, right back in the thick of things. They're one point back of the Canucks, four points back of the flames who are holding on to the second wildcard spot in the West. There's an implied probability of about 30% for them to make the playoffs. I joked in a recent show

that this Utah Hockey Club has been a bit of a blind spot for me this season because I was just so enamored with their start and with obviously the progression of some of these young players and especially some of the counterparts they're competing with that I just mentioned for this playoff spot.

They're just so much more fun to watch, in my opinion, and I can talk myself into our CEL seeing a realistic possibility where they keep taking strides and become a legitimate contender moving forward. Yet it's been just a season of sort of series of stops and starts, right? This most recent stretch is highly encouraging. I think there's a lot to build off of what are you seeing from them and kind of how do you

sort of describe this year that we've seen from the Utah hockey club in year one there? You know what, Jamies. This is just Arizona Coyotes 2.0. This is what has happened in Arizona for a long time. you see that glimpses of, hey, this is a pretty good hockey team. They've got some good pieces. They're playing pretty well. And then they revert back to bad habits.

They get players that are injured. They have all these things. And all of a sudden, they lose five in a row. It reminds me of what I've seen over the last few years there. But this team is showing that I think it's coming. I think the playoffs are coming. I think this is exactly who they are. I think they're going to win three or four.

Then they're going to lose five. I don't think this is a team that's quite ready. ready to break into that playoff spot. I think the West is going to be extremely difficult to jump the teams. They have to jump to get in. Having said that, the young pieces have been great. And you start, look at the losing streak. It started when Dylan Gunther got hurt.

And Dylan Gunther has been an absolute stud for this team this season, his ability to provide offense. He can defend. This kid is going to be a really, really, really good player. I don't know if you remember how we got him into Arizona. Or excuse me, Arizona. Yeah, it is Arizona. how we got him here.

It was through the trap. There's no need to get into the details and intricacies of what happened. Whoops. Never mind. But no, I think this team is going to get some wins. And you look at what they've done recently against Winnipeg. I don't think Winnipeg played like the Winnipeg Jets have been playing this season. I think they had a little bit of a letdown and it's hard.

It's hard to go into Delta Center, new city, new hotel, new surroundings. I've said that before on the show. It does make a difference. And I think they saw that when they went into Mallet Arena for the first year. You really got that home field advantage. Vegas had it there first year. Seattle had it their first year. I think it's real.

And I think Winnipeg just came in there thinking where the Winnipeg Jets, this is the Utah Hockey Club. And I think it caught them a little off guard. They look great in Minnesota. I mean, they looked really good last night in Minnesota in defeating a really good Minnesota wild. And we'll see because tonight they got a back to back and we'll see how they can play back to back, crossing the border, getting in late into Winnipeg.

And that's a tough, tough place to play in when you're rested coming in a back-to-back. This will be a true test for this you talk about. Yeah, I'd say the biggest tell in terms of pessimism of like this isn't there a year to take that step we're waiting for is their record in close games in particular. And it's sort of an inability to close out or at least salvage points in some of these really coin flip type games. And that's kind of a mark of a young team sort of taking its lumps, learning how to win all those cliches. But their last five losses have all been by one goal if you exclude empty netters at the end that distort. to the score lines a bit. They've been one of the worst five to six teams all year in getting points out of games decided

by one goal. And that's sometimes what these playoff races come down to, especially on the fringes, right? Just kind of grinding out when you're not playing at your best. It's easy when you go into Minnesota and you just jump on them from the start and you build an early lead and then you can kind of play your game from there. But when push comes to shove, it's a tie game laden to third. It seems like they've just had a sort of disproportionate amount of games where they've just blown them for whatever reason and maybe it is just as simple. I don't think there's anything necessarily

you know, fatally flawed with this team in terms of its composition or an ability to do so. I think it's just kind of the next step that they're going to have to take. But that's probably one of those things. Now at the same time, if you wanted to take a glass, half full approach, you could acknowledge there's some randomness in those games. A few things go differently and all a sudden you have a different point total and there's still enough season left where if you learn from some of those mistakes and you iron that out, all of a sudden the room to grow in terms of actually accumulating the necessary points it's going to take the climb up the standings is kind of there for them, right?

It feels like there's so much on tap potential in terms of ceiling yet to hit if they just keep playing the way they have so far without any sort of drastic changes. Yeah, maybe it is. It's funny how this team, when you look back again through their histories, the first period has been a period that this team has struggled. They've had difficulties and starts of games over the last few seasons. But when you look at Utah now, they're top 10 in the, NHL in first period plus minus school differential.

They're coming in at plus 14, which is, it's really good. I mean, you're talking the capitals are at 19, Columbus, Buffalo. There's some teams that have really good first periods. And then it falls apart. I mean, they're minus 12 and the second, minus three and the third. This team really gets off to a good start and they just can't sustain it. And I think that reflects what we talk about with this young, learning, growing team. And even they're big leaders.

I think Keller's still a kid. And he's the guy who's the captain leading this team through this muck and Meyer. and he's he's young. There's a lot of really, really talented young players. And I wonder sometimes if that's the piece that's missing on this team. I know Nick Bukestead, we saw him help help the, the Edmonton Oilers in their playoff run a few years ago. And he's a veteran guy that does things right.

And Kerfoot has been outstanding on the bottom six. But I wonder if they've got that guy that can really get in that locker room that's been a veteran, that's one that goes, okay, here's the way to do it. And I think Ian Cole has done that. Surgich, now another guy that's, It's hurt. They tried to do that on the back end, but I really do believe they need that, that experience up front to really help push this team to the next step.

The reason why I wanted to start with them. And I think the biggest difference in watching these games between this recent sampling of games and all the stuff that came before it. And I think arguably the most important development for this organization and franchise, regardless of whether they proceed to make the playoffs this year, is Logan Cooley leveling up in real time before our very eyes midway through year two of his. career. And you mentioned the Gunther injury and obviously he was very unfortunate and I miss watching him ripped the puck and hopefully he'll be back soon. But they've played seven games

since he got hurt. And it was interesting, Andre Turney essentially decided to use that as an opportunity to just load up his top line. He put Logan Cooley up centering Keller and Schmaltz. And his usage in that time was spiked. He was playing 1701 per game previously for the season. in this stretch he's playing 2039 resembling a true number one center he's leading the team in both 515 usage and total all situations minutes amongst forwards that trio's played 77 minutes together

at 515 they've doubled up the opponents and we're texting about this and I think what's really stood out to me more than anything in this period of games without gunther is how it's unlocked a totally different side of coolly in my opinion I think he came into the league and right from the jump the playmaking ability and vision and puck skills

were all certainly very evident in there to see. But I felt like playing with Gunther and it's understandable because few people in the league can shoot the puck the way he does. So if you're a passer the way cool he is and you're playing with a guy like that, I think it's human nature to be like, all right, well my job is to just funnel the puck to him,

let him shoot, and good things are going to come from that. I just felt like in watching that, maybe sometimes he deferred a little bit too much or took a backseat as a shooter himself and an initiator because he had Gunther as an option there, and now you watch these games. And it's interesting, especially his chemistry right off the bat with Keller, both guys are kind of these dual threat players who I think

would ideally like to pass more than shoot themselves, but they have such immense skill that it's almost a shame that that's the case. And then playing off each other all of a sudden now, it kind of drags them both out into this different way of being on the ice. And Keller himself has really started to cook and produce after some early season struggles offensively himself. And we've seen Cooley now score four goals here in these seven games. And pretty much every one of them has been just a beautiful shawl

where he essentially just beat the goalie cleanly one-on-one. And so if that's a sign of things to come for me, even when Gunt that comes back and they potentially put those guys back together, if Cooley embraces this and is able to keep playing this way, I think it just entirely changes the trajectory for this team because Keller is going to be productive no matter what. But now Cooley leveling up into the player we thought he could be, it shouldn't be a surprise.

He's a 20-year-old. Obviously, he's going to get better as he gets more reps at this level. But just seeing him kind of from great game to great game become more assertive and more aggressive has been really fun to watch. And you go back to when he played at the University of Minnesota and watch some of those games. He's a slight kid. I mean, let's be honest. He's not a big physical guy that's going to go in and separate guys from the puck in the corner. But he's got this little chip on his shoulder that he's got a little bite to his game.

And he will give a little whack on the back of the shins. and he's got that element in him. And I don't think we've seen that. And I think once you put him with Keller, Keller might surprise people. Like Keller, Keller competes. Like Keller works 200 feet up and down the ice. And I think it's been really good for Kooli's development

to jump over the boards with Keller on every shift. And Keller's been waiting for a number one center since he got there. And Barrett Hayton's a really good player. He's a top draft pick. Barrett Hayton's going to be a guy that I think if you slot him lower in the lineup, you know, second or third line. center, I think he's an incredibly valuable player. And he's playing really well right now because he's slotting in a little different spot.

But Keller's finally got a guy that can get him the puck. And he's also got a guy that he can get the puck too. And you mentioned their chemistry. Watch them on the power play now. Like this Utah power play now. And think when Surgichev gets back, they slotted Josh Donne in front of the net. And Josh's got the recall because of Gunther. He's a guy that's been standing in front of the net.

And it's helping these other two guys get more space. Cool. He's outstanding. He's got speed. he's got skill, he's got compete, and his hands. I'm telling you, I know there's not a lot of people maybe in Western Canada that have had the opportunity to watch this kid play. He's won you buy a ticket to go watch.

He's that good. And I think that's going to be when you get him and Gunther on the ice, two, three years from now with a Michael Kesselring who's really starting to get his offensive game going on the back end. Look out. Then I think this Utah team will finally be ready to be a playoff team. I just love seeing the mentality of seeing him kind of, kind of embrace the opportunity to attack more to look willingly for his shot as the first

read in particular rather than kind of settling for it after you exhausted every option. It makes me think of I did this deep dive of Matt Barzal's game and everything we were seeing on tape from him throughout his career, but especially last year with Daryl. And he made such a fascinating point. I thought at the time of how difficult it is to score consistently in the NHL as an on puck creator, right? Because like the longer you have the puck on your stick, the opposing defense can get set, the goal he can prepare, and there's just very few guys who could consistently score from those positions. That's why we see so many goals off of tips, rebounds, puck movement laterally. And so you could see it in times in Cooley where like even when he's skating around

the offensive zone and probing, you can just tell, and I think the opposing defense can tell as well, that he's not as much of a shot threat because he's looking for a pass or he's looking to kind of probe a little bit before he does something. And then now all of a sudden, even if it's the same type of shot, if he's just stepping into it more decisively, I feel like that opens so many more avenues for him. And I feel like that's what's what's so exciting to me. Like he's just, there's so much more aggressiveness. And it also feels like there'd be moments early in the season where you could see the potential where you'd have a scintillating play or a rush or he'd set up a play and you'd be like, wow, that was a special isolated incident. Now it feels like he's stacking

them. And if anything, when he comes out on the ice with Keller, I'm almost expecting him to do it every single shift. And I feel like that's a bit of a change for me in perception from what I was seeing early in the air from him. Yeah, and you look at a shooting percentage over the last four in the last four games. He's 50% shooters. I know you can't keep sustain that against the Rangers. 33 and a third versus St. Louis and Winnipeg.

So now you're starting to see not only is he shooting the puck more, that it's going in the net. And I think that's only going to breed the confidence in this kid. We've said this on here before, Dimitri. Once you're having success, success, success breed success. when you get that confidence, whether it's winning, losing, it's hard to break those kind of rhythms, whether it's good or bad.

And right now, Logan Cooley's feeling it. And I tell you what, once you get this kind of experience and you go back to that draft in 2022, and you go, okay, Slefkoski, this was not a, this isn't Connor McDavid, this isn't kind of Redar draft. This was who the heck's going to go when and where? Was it Shane Wright? Was it Cutter-Goti?

It was really who's who. And I know, talking to GM Bill Armstrong at the time, when they picked Logan Cooley at number three, the Arizona Coyote's thought that they got the best guy in the draft. And you go look statistically right now. He's got the same amount of points as Slavkovsky playing nearly 40 games fewer. And I don't know where these guys are going up. They're different players.

And I understand that. But when you go back and redraft this, when you go 10 years into the future and you redraft 20, 22, don't be surprised if Logan Cooley is the guy near the top. I think he has got so much more to offer than what we've seen. already. The ceiling is unbelievable. I could spend all show talking about him. I want to bounce around and cover more stuff, though, rather than just waxing poetic about him for the next 35 minutes or so. Yeah. Hey, but let's say that too. Before we exit on him, Demetri, one of the things you got to watch, there are still some growing pains on a young player. And offensively,

we've talked about all the things that have happened on the power play, and how well he moves the puck and his vision and his shot. Dude has some difficulties inside his own blue line. And there are issues with his game and his ability to defend and recognize danger. and stay with his man and get the stick in the right lane and read defensive systems. I mean, he's, you know, minus three, minus two, minus three. Even these games where he's getting points, he's minus one, minus two, and even. Like, there's still issues here that he needs to grow on. And I think the offensive side for these young players is much, much easier.

Jump over the board as a play hard than it is on the defensive side where you have to read and be stronger and get these defensive systems down. He's got a long way to go. You can feel he can be out in any situation. So I just wanted to finish Cooley as, hey, we're not putting this guy, we're not anointing him as the next great thing. There are some still areas he needs to work on. He does. He's 20.

And also I'll say on that for this organization in particular for years, dating back to Arizona years, that's never really been a concern. Part of it was some of the coaches they had, right, in terms of the structure and the defensive identity. And the fact that they probably couldn't compete in terms of an arms race and firepower offensively. But having a guy who can create at this level to go along with Keller and Alis. all of a sudden, I think, opens so many different doors for Utah as an organization, right? Just like someone with this type of ability, these aren't types of players we've necessarily associated with this franchise for a long time. And so I think that's incredibly exciting.

Speaking of second year, our players benefiting or thriving from recent role changes. I want to talk to you a little bit about Adam Van Tilly and what we're seeing from him. I know you did a little bit of a video on him after his hat-trick against the Maple Leafs. in eight games since Sean Minahan got hurt and he essentially stepped into that top line center role similar to what we just said about Cooley he leads the team with five goals and nine points he's played about 100 minutes at 515

with that combination of Marchanko and Barrancal that we love they're up 6 to 2 in that time have a 59% shot share there's still I think growing pains in his game as well maybe different ones than Cooley and we can kind of break those down a little bit here but I think what you're seeing is highly encouraging because all right the hatrick against the leaves

that's obviously impressive and worth talking about. But the second of a back-to-back that they played on Thursday against the Hurricanes, I thought was even more impressive from him because he had a pair of these assists with the highlighted growth in his game, in my opinion, where early on, and I don't blame him for this, but he's had a bit of a one-track mind, kind of as a straight-line player, in my opinion. And it happens with some of these powerful words that are just so physically gifted where I doubt he was ever challenged at previous levels,

to incorporate nuance or any sort of problem solving to his game, right? He could essentially take the puck, skate past whoever was in front of him, bully his way to the net, and overpower the goalie and score, and to be like, all right, no problem. I don't need to do anything different. All of a sudden you come to the NHL, it's really difficult to do that, especially in half-court settings where the defense is set,

and all of a sudden you need to find ways to get around that. And in both of those, you see some of that planning and pre-planning and sort of maneuvering and decision-making, where on the first one, he's cut, he's drifting to his right, he's dragging the defenders along with him, then he sends against the grain a backhand pass to Marchenko who's cutting in for a goal. On the second assist, he uses some of that raw power and speed to push the defense back, but then instead of continuing to skate forward and essentially skate himself into trouble against the boards, he stops up, he creates space, he cuts back to the middle, he interchanges with Wrenski,

creates more space for a teammate, and Wrenzki's able to score off of that. And so those are plays that we weren't really seeing from him at all in his career early on, but especially to start this season that he's starting to incorporate more. And so if he keeps doing that, I feel like especially in this role, the sky's the limit for him as well. And so I wanted to shot him out because I think the parallels between him and Cooley as second line players, stepping into bigger roles and benefiting from it is a pretty neat one. Yeah, and it's funny. You talk about these second year players, and they're different.

Like these are two very, very different. One of the things that's just amazed at me is how well this kid moves at the size that he is and his ability to find and create open space and get away from the defenders. But you're right. Over this last several games, I don't know if it's confidence or what is the different opportunities, perhaps. But that backhand pass yesterday was absolutely elite. Like over two sticks, saucers onto the ice and you're going, okay, this kid can bring so much more. You look at the top six in Columbus right now. The only guy over 24 is Van Riemstike.

Columbus, be careful. We talked about how young Utah is and how Utah is going to be a team to look out for. Man, this Columbus Blue Jackets team is fun. And I think they're peaking a little early again. I'm not sure where they're going to be when all the chips fall as well. But a guy like Ventilla, you can see this guy over again. We talk about the next decade. Can you imagine his ability and where this bar will get on this guy?

He's fast. He's strong. He can make plays now. Can shoot. can fill in in all these different areas, eat minutes. It was fun watching this could play. And just, I was shocked at how much he did in a game that I didn't notice,

his ability to forecheck, first guy in on the puck. And not only do that, I think when you're young, you go in and you separate the defenseman from the puck and you're like, hey, I did a great job. I made the head. What he does is he's, okay, what are I going to next? Where's my next move? Where's my next play?

And his ability to get back in and recognize that he's got so much more to do than just be the physical guy that. separates the puck. This, again, this young core of NHL players is, is a lot of fun. This game's taking another shift to a lot of new young guys. Yeah, well, you see with Fantillion, I think this is true for, for a lot of young players, but as things speed up, his ability to now slow down a little bit and make plays within that is becoming a more frequent occurrence for him, right?

Like, that's kind of what I was saying, where he would just almost try to constantly jam a square peg into a round hole, where if he had space to skate and front of him and he had open ice, it's scintillating to watch. Like he can, as you said, at that size, the way he moves, getting from point A to point B is no problem. But as soon as you put some sort of a roadblock or obstacle in front of him, he would just, instead of deviating or being like, all right, I need a detour or I need to pass and then do a little giving go, he would just be like, no, I'm going to keep doing what I initially wanted to do, even though my circumstances have changed and he would bump into troubles doing so. Now all of a sudden,

you're seeing him incorporate teammates. And I think that's so exciting. And yeah, this Bluejack team is so fun. I mean, a guy who kind of gets lost in the shuffle here because we spend so much time talking about Werenski and the top line with those three guys we mentioned. A guy like Ken Johnson, who's in that top six that you reference their ages, he's leveled up as well this year when he came back from injury early on. He's been scoring a bunch and it's been really fun to watch his progression as well. And so there's so much talent here. I just think the offensive upside for this Blue Jackets team, their defensive metrics are still quite subpar. We saw them, you know, second of a back to back in Raleigh against Arrested Hurricanes team is about as difficult an assignment as

you can have regardless of how good you are. But they got blitzed a little bit in that second period. I'm still bullish on this team. I think just the juice they have offensively separates themselves from a lot of the teams they're competing with in that Eastern Conference wildcard picture. And so we'll see if this is the year. But similar to what I said about Utah, I just feel like seeing some of the creativity and offensive skill on display is something you can kind of hang your hat on and be like, all right, even if this isn't the year you jump into the playoffs, there's legitimate building blocks here moving forward. Yeah, and I think it's faster than people are expecting to.

And you've got to credit D.N. Evesant on this and what this coaching staff has been able to do for this team. And, you know, Dean Everson's a guy I've always liked. I like the way he coached in Minnesota. I think he was a guy that was able to help propel that team, again, farther than they had anticipated. I know they had Crowell Capraisa, but they had some bad contracts, and they couldn't fill out the roster the way they had wanted. And I think he was part of the reason.

And so honestly, surprised to see him go. But you see him in Columbus. I do credit him a lot with what they've done there and his ability to get these young players to play the right way. I do get concerned. You talked about their defending and where they're at there even and they're plus minus goal differential right now. You know, Rangers are starting to come along. They're plus two. And I always go to that goal differential.

I know, you talk a lot about here about how important that statistic is. Columbus is right there. But I don't think it's their time yet. I think it's coming. I think they're learning to play the right way. I think challenges like last night where they play one of the top teams in all of hockey in the Carolina hurricanes, those are learning lessons. Those are going, okay, whether it's how we're preparing for these back-to-back games or, hey, we need to do something different. Those are things these guys are going to remember.

And I think this is a team that's probably going to, sorry to say this to Columbus Blue Jacket fans, I do think they're probably just going to end up just outside. And I think it's going to be an exciting race in the East, especially closer to the trade deadline. But Columbus, look out. This is a team that's going to be back in the playoffs. And I think they're a team that's good enough to cause some damage there, but just not yet. I want to pretend I didn't hear what you just said because I remain steadfast in my opinion that. Listen, it's going to be tight. But I just, I feel like.

You got them in? I do have them in. I mean, I think it'll be really close. And I think especially with the Rangers kind of figuring some stuff out in particular, Shasturkin coming back healthy and dominating the way he was previously all of a sudden them being back in the mix complicates things a little bit I just feel like when you compare them to a team like the Bruins they have so many more outs or possibilities in my opinion in terms of having these blow-up games where they're scoring but also coming back from deficits and stuff whereas like the

bruins have to play such a particular game the way they did on Thursday against the senators where it's this very closely managed low-scoring game and then Pasternak makes a couple plays and they come out ahead. They've been doing it for so long that maybe we shouldn't expect them to completely just fall off this year and they can still claw their way back in. But I feel like this Blue Jackets team just has so many more options. Still a lot of holes, still a lot of work to be done. But to your point on Dean Evanson, been noting this along the way as well, like when you see some of these mistakes early on from a guy like Fantilli or some of these young players, so many coaches would reprimend them by trying to, you know, instill all these defensive

tendencies instead and limit their ice time as a form of punishment and instead part of it is because Monahan's out and so it's a natural replacement but seeing him be rewarded for for his play and also be given more chances to work through some of these early career struggles I think is huge and having a coach who empowers your young players that way is is a big differentiator for me so yeah all the kudos in the world to Dean Everson and the job he's done with his blue jackets team PDe let's um let's take our break here and then we come back we'll jump back into it we've got a fun segment ahead when we come back from the break. You're listening to the Hockey P.D.Ocast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.

All right. We're back here in the Hockey P.D.O. We're going to debut a new segment here in the PEDAO cast that hopefully every time we have you on, we'll become a recurring one. And it's going to be, it's going to serve also a dual purpose as an organic plug for your new YouTube page. We're going to dub it inside the coaches room where we tap into your wealth of. of real life experience, having worked within the coyote's organization for 20 plus years and all your dealings

behind the scenes there, seeing how things went, hopefully get some cool, uh, story time out of you along the way as well. I know listeners really enjoyed, I believe it was the last time we had you on, but you were shriegaling us with your tales of, uh, getting, getting on Rick Talk, it's bad side with some, some challenges or some reviews and, and the fallout from that. Um, so you've got all sorts of fun stories to share here. I thought the theme for this week, there'll be a fun one. We're exactly six weeks out from the March 7th trade deadline at the time they were recording. In your years in Arizona, you certainly were there for your fair share of trades. Let's get into the process of it, kind of just working for a team and being through all that,

how that sort of stuff unfolded. You can take it any way you want, maybe some of your most memorable ones along the way. I wanted to talk to you certainly about the Taylor Hall one pre-pandemic because that one was certainly one that I think captured a lot of people's attention and interest because of the magnitude of it and also the coyotes going for it and everything that it involved but yeah take it from here yeah you know it's funny trade deadline is an interesting time inside a coach's room and inside the locker room and I don't know I know fans sit there and scan the tickers and the and the trade trade wire trying to see what's going on but it's different inside the room in the room it's everybody's life And it's your buddy, it's your neighbor, it's your teammate. It's a guy that has kids in school. And in the coaches room, it's, man, it's going to screw up our lines. Like, what are we going to do here? And again, I'm going from the Arizona's perspective.

For most of the times, they were sellers. And you're looking at all know, what the hell are we going to do now? I just talked to Dave Tippett last week, and we were talking about 2015. And it was one of the, no offense to anybody who was on the 2015 Arizona Coyote hockey team, because I'm sure all those players are listening. Well, it was an awful hockey team. It was bad. And unfortunately, at the trade deadline, it got worse.

And I've never seen a head coach as dejected as Dave Tippett was after the trade deadline. You just, you had no chance. Rick Bonas, when he took over for Bobby Francis, Rick Bonas looked at that roster and said, we cannot win. We went one in 22 down the stretch. So the trade deadline is a demarcation for everybody in the coach's room that things are going to get better or they're going to get worse. And when they get worse, they can get a lot worse. What's interesting this season, though, Demetri, is how tight the east is.

is who's going to be selling and who's going to be staying pat? Because I think that's a huge thing. You go to Arizona, best season Arizona ever had, 2011, 2012, Pacific Division champions, go to the Western Conference Finals. Everything is fantastic for that hockey club. But take, go to January 31st. The NHL owns this team.

They're fourth out of five teams in the Pacific. They're fourth. They're 10 points behind San Jose on January 31st of 2012. Out of it. Don Maloney is selling. This team is. selling, they're done. February, they go 12-0 and 1. End of February, they find themselves first in the Pacific Division.

Now, no longer selling, now you're buying. And when you're a team that's buying, I know you might lose a buddy, you might lose a friend, but more than often than not, you're losing a draft pick. And you sit there as a team looking, okay, what is management going to do for us? What are the ownership going to do for us? Do they believe in us enough to get us a good player? For that team was Antoine Vermet. And I know when you look back in the lexicon of sports, Antoine Vermet may not be a huge piece,

but it was a huge piece for that team. That team is a team that did it through teamwork, and there was no real big star. He propelled that team to the Western Fonds. But there are other years when you look across and you go, uh-oh, I'll take it, we'll get to Taylor Hall in a minute, but there was another year that you go, this team's in trouble.

And it was 2009. And Wayne Gretzky's the coach. Mike Barnett is the general manager. And this was another bad hockey team. Teams on the road. in Boston. We set up the coaches war room in the, and in the hotel in Boston.

And by the way, video guys roll at trade deadline is a minimal. Make sure you get all the trade tracker shows on TV and they're dialed in in the room and make sure the phone works. And then get the hell out of the way. That's the video guy's job. Sorry video guys,

but that's just reality. And the conversations between Wayne Gretzky and Mike Barnett that day. And there was a particular player that came up early in the morning on the phone. I probably want name of the player. We'll see how I get into this. Wayne Gretzky said, no, don't want that player.

Don't want that player. Don't get that player. Two hours later, Barnett calls again, hey, I got a deal. We can get this player. Don't get that player. Don't want that player. Don't need that player. It doesn't fit into what we're trying to.

Not that he's a bad player. By one o'clock in the afternoon, that player was a coyote. And you're just going, Griskeke was just shaking. What the hell do I got to do? What do I got to tell him that I don't want this guy to be on our team? but the bigger issue there in the Boston, the Boston 2009 trade that in for the Arizona Coyuz was how many players left that team.

Derek Morris, Michael Tauquist, Daniel Carcella, Oliocan, all packing their bags and downstairs at the hotel. Morris knew he was going. He was a free agent. He brought three suitcases on a three-day trip. And I think that's where you have to recognize, hey, I'm leaving. I get it.

Like, I'm going somewhere. And then your team changes dynamics. And it's incredibly hard for those teams that are selling to try to make their way back into it. It's an interesting time of view. And right now, six weeks is about the time frame, Demetri, the teams are starting to look. Are we buying or are we selling?

So I think this is going to be interesting six weeks stretch. I'm glad you brought up the 2015 Coyotes because while you were speaking, I was looking up the team roster. And man, that is a collection of let's remember some guys. We got Mark Archivello, got Rob Clinkhammer, got David Schlemco. I mean, you go on and on.

Kyle Chipa. What a team. But you know what? Really good people, by the way. Well, really good people, but that was the, that was the, I mean, the coyotes knew what they were doing at the time. And they were right at doing. So that was the Connor McDavid draft. And that was the memorable game in Buffalo that year, right?

Where you went in overtime and Sabres fans at home are just going nuts, cheering for the long. Cheering for the coyotes. Yeah. Unbelievable. And do you want to talk about the Taylor Hall trade? I do. I remember that one so vividly because obviously it was a big deal because he was just two years removed from his MVP. season. It happened in looking back at it, I felt like it happened later on in the season. Like,

I felt it happened closer to the deadline because I remember in real time, it felt like it was just dragging on forever. I remember the Devils had this like road trip where they were playing Colorado and he got scratched just before that game started. And there were all these jokes about how like, oh, like he actually just switched locker rooms and he was going to stay with the abs because they were one of the teams Rupert to acquire them. I remember at the time, Kevin Ball was like a big sticking point and there was this whole discourse of like whether that was the roadblock of his inclusion in the deal and whether the coyotes are going to go through with it if they included him.

There was all sorts of movement parts. But I remember that being like a really fascinating, I guess crossroads moment for that organization and must have been a heck of a deal to be a part of. You know, it's funny because when we talk about that team in 2019, Rick Tocket's the coach. People that know Rick Tocket, we've seen it here in Vancouver. Rick Tocket wants to win, period. that's it. Like when he gets up in the morning,

it's how are we going to win today? He's competitive. He wants to be on a team that has an opportunity to win. And I think he had a lot to do with pushing John Teika to make that team better that year. I think it was part of the DNA for Rick Tocket. We had during Rick Tecatechtax tenure, he set the record in Arizona for the most losses to start a season.

And things were tough. And so I think when the name Taylor Hall first came up, I really believe that inside the coach's room was kind of like, yeah, right. There's no way that Taylor Hall is going to be an Arizona coyote. It just didn't fit. It wasn't a guy that go, okay, yeah, let's get Taylor Hall. And I remember the player that the Arizona coyotes were looking at the time was Tyler To Foley. And now when you look at one of the things when you're bringing in a player, you've got to look through your roster.

You've got to put the names on the board and go, where does this player fit? Tyler Tofoli, to me, as a guy, I liked him at the time. I thought he was a big right-hand shot, could come down the wing, he could help provide secondary scoring, but more importantly, he's just a cog in the wheel. He's just another guy. Tyler Toffoli could have come into that locker room that already had Phil Kessel. And Phil Kessel, a lot of people know, Phil's a unique guy. And Phil wants the puck. And you better give Phil the puck.

So I thought Tyler Tolley fit really well. And I remember, ironically, it was Steve Sullivan. The guys were on the ice. This happened. It was a little earlier. This is in December when the trade actually occurred. So at that time, Arizona was in first place in the division or fighting for first in the division. But unfortunately, a lot of that was Darcy Kemper.

And Darcy Kemper came up with a groin injury in the very first game Taylor Hall played. And the coyotes went from first to fourth, all with that injury of Darcy Kemper. So again, timing is you can't help timing. but with Taylor Hall, Steve Sullivan, assistant general manager came into the coach's room. I was the only one in there because all the coaches are on the ice and he looked at me and said, we just got Hall. And I laughed at him. Like, no, no, we didn't.

No, it doesn't. It's not the right time. He's not the right fit. He put the magnet up on the board. And there was Taylor Hall. And I think the first, when the coaches got off the ice, I think it was the same response. It was shock.

Like, oh my gosh, we got Taylor Hall. And I know, like Rick Talk, his head just started spinning. Like, oh my gosh, Taylor Hall, where's he going to play? Where's it going to play on the power. play what am I going to match him with but then it started to go where's he going to fit and i think what arizona found out as he continued to play with the arizona coyotes is maybe this wasn't the fit and maybe this wasn't the right time for a taylor hall and that's what you have to be careful about and one thing we talk about rebuilding teams when you rebuild you rebuild and when the taylor

hall trade happened you trade kevin ball and kevin ball at the time you tell me he's he wouldn't fit into what Bill Armstrong's time to build in Utah right now. Like, that's exactly the kind of defenseman he wants on his team. He fits. And then, and not only that, you trade away your first round draft pick who becomes Dawson Mercer, who knows who the coyotes may have drafted at that time, all for Taylor Hall who played from that December through the bubble. And then he was gone for nothing.

And again, it's about fit. Where did Taylor Hall fit on that thing? So when you're looking at your team, getting a player, you can be excited about the big name guy. You can go, okay, great, we acquired this. guy, but he's got to fit in your team. He's got to fit in your locker room. They've got to get along with people. We have an analytics guy come in and told Rick Talkett. After a few games with Taylor Hall, it was probably a few weeks with Taylor Hall playing on this team. And he said to

Rick Talkett, it was a young kid, the analytics guy, numbers. And he said to Rick Talkett, Taylor Hall needs to play with Phil Kessel. When you look at the analytics, those two, they produce the most chances when those two are on a grouping together. of five. Rick Tocke looked at him and said, you want me to put Taylor Hall and Phil Kessel on the ice at the same time? You think that's a good coaching move to put those two on the ice at the same time? He said, he just pointed at the door. He said, get out. Because those two guys just didn't fit. I really like Taylor Hall. And I think his play in Boston, I think it was a perfect fit for Taylor Hall. He's not the top three guy. He's the second three guy. And that made a

difference. So when you look back at that trade for the Arizona counties that were in first place at the time. They get to the bubble. They get to the players for the first time since 2012. Taylor Hall's a part of it. He's a piece, but he didn't take over the scoring lead because when you play with Taylor Hall, you need to have really good players around him. You need to surround Taylor Hall with guys that can get him the puck because when Taylor Hall hits the ice, dude, he wants a puck. Taylor Hall wants the puck all the time. Taylor Hall's the guy that at that time, he was just coming off MVP season. He's the guy that I'm going to do it for everybody. I'm the guy. So get me the puck. Unfortunately, for that team, they didn't have.

have the surrounding core. So be careful what you wish for because at that time you got away from the rebuild. Well, to your point on the Tofoli thing, I remember at the time he wound up obviously being traded to Canucks and fit in beautifully and was an instant fan favorite, a big contributor and we've seen along the way that, you know, obviously to varying results, but he's bounced around and every team he's gone on, he's found a way to fit in in his role, right? And much less catering around his skill set, more so complimentary. And there's immense value to that. that when you hear you speak about that though in particular the the rick tocket exchange to me that demonstrates an issue within the organization of communication and understanding of the planning of

like how every piece is going to fit right because if you have a coach who you know is going to demand a certain um attribute or or tendency from their players or is going to want their lineup to look a certain way or play a certain way and then you give them players that they're not going to be able to get the most out of then to me that that just resemble some sort of a fracture, I guess, in either the relationship or the communication or the organizational health, right? Because you kind of need this for all the best organizations in any sport, there's this sort of top-down approach of like an understanding of everyone working in the same manner and direction. And you're going to have differences of opinion,

of course, and I think that's healthy. You don't want a bunch of yes men and you don't want everyone just constantly agreeing. Like you want pushback and you want healthy debate. But ultimately like a GM who acquires players that their coach isn't going to use or not, the coach gets a lot of blame for it. But in my opinion, as much of it should fall on the GM because they just didn't really understand her assignment in my opinion. Yeah. And you look at what when you get to those organizations that have a real identity, that that's

what this team is. And you go, you know, whether it's the Boston Bruins, Philadelphia, New York Ranger, some of those franchises that you go, okay, that guy could be a ranger or that guy, that guy plays Bruin hockey. I think when you get those real defined roles, you see that, but you also see, hey, this guy's a Dave Tippett kind of player. Or, gosh, there's no way this guy can play for Rick Tocke. There's no way just the his style play. So I do think that that comes into it.

Without question that you've got to be able to fit the player to the system that you're trying to play, that you're trying to, the culture you're trying to get across to your team. I think it's incredibly important because they can become absolute disasters and what happens inside the room. And I know there are coaches out there, though, and I will tell you, I won't, again, I'm not going to give players, but Wayne Gretzky sat and there was a player that was having some off-ice issues with another franchise. And Wayne sat and looked at the TV and he said, he could play here. I can fix him. He could play for me. I'm a guy that. And everybody in the room was like, oh, my goodness, you want to bring that guy in your room?

There's no way that's going to work out. This is what a disaster don't do. Ultimately, it doesn't happen. but it is the belief of coaches that, hey, that's a guy I want to coach. That's a guy that I think can fit in our room. It's important. And if you don't get the general manager and the head coach on the same page, some of the things aren't going to work because you can get the player into your room.

But now the GM envisions this guy is a power play guy on the right flank. And, you know, he's a top three. He's playing on the right side on the first line. And the coach, say, no, he doesn't. It's not where he fits in the way I want to play. And then the disconnect starts. So I think as trade led lines approach, it's very important not just to identify the guys that are on the top of the list and points and all this guy is the guy to acquire. How does he fit on your team?

How does he fit with the guys you already have in the room? Not just on the ice, but off the ice is incredibly important. How do they fit? And I think you've seen some of these aloof players that might not fit in the room or there are issues. You might be seeing some of that in Vancouver right now. Some guys can't get along and it can definitely happen and change. the what's going on inside the room. Yeah.

At the same time, I would say, and I know I'm kind of speaking out of both sides of my mouth here, just providing perspective, but I think the mark of a good coach is probably a certain level of flexibility within their system as well to like embrace different skill sets. And their job ultimately is to get the most out of the players they're given, uh, regardless of whether it's, you know, the way they envisioned or the way they would ideally have the team. And so when, you know, when, especially we see, get a lot with some of these more stricter coaches that we talk is a great example and you have

more of a freelancing offensively oriented player they make a couple mistakes they don't backcheck or they have a costly turnover and then all of a sudden you're in a doghouse you're struggling it's easier when you're dean evison coaching the blue jackets in year one because there's very low expectations especially where you were last year and so you have i think much more much less pressure certainly but also just much more leeway to experiment with stuff if you're a team that made at the round two of the playoffs last year in a Canadian market with all this pressure and drama around you.

Maybe it's a bit of a different circumstance. But I feel like you need to also work around your players a little bit as well, right? It can't just be one's particular type of player because you have to be able to win different ways. So yeah, it's a very interesting dynamic, but I'm always fascinated about the way in particular, especially this time of year,

the communication from obviously from owner to GM and enabling them to make certain moves, but then from GM to coach in terms of how those players are going to be utilized and then from coach to actually on ice product what that winds up looking like. I feel like that flow chart is an incredibly interesting one that varies from organization organization. Do you have any feel for, you know, just to bookend this and kind of come back to the Utah

conversation? They've been a team we've been identifying all season ahead of the trade deadline as one that could be surprisingly frisky, I guess. We saw them certainly make a bunch of moves in the offseason, right? trading for Marino and trading for Sergachev and spending some money finally and kind of demonstrating that it is going to be a new era of hockey for this organization and that they're going to commit to actually have a winning a product. They're kind of on this bubble now. I don't think anyone is certainly expecting them to make some sort of a crazy futures move where they send a bunch of picks

for prospects for rental players. But I've kind of had the vibe this entire time that they're very live in the market of teams that if a certain type of player pops up, especially within that right age range and maybe even some term associated with it, that they're as likely as anyone to make a big swing here, not only because it's your one with a new market and you're trying to kind of build off the momentum and keep the good vibes going,

but also because I think you have a legitimately interesting foundation already in place. And at some point you talk about how you got to rebuild the right way, that's all well and good, but at some point you actually need to actually have good players and win hockey games. Do you have a feel for how Bill Armstrong is going to kind of approach this between now and the trade deadline or maybe even stretching into next summer and seeing if they kind of keep compounding from what they did this past summer or whether I guess their play ultimately is going to dictate which way they go? I know this with talking to Bill Armstrong.

There is no chance he's getting a short-term player or a player that's older veteran players. It's not going to have it that does not fit into their plan. He said he's only going to acquire players at the trade deadline. if, again, if they're in a position to be buying, that's going to help this team long term. It's not for what we can do over the next few months. It's what we can do over the next few years. And so I believe he's going to stick to the pattern.

One of the things that I think is incredibly important for franchises to stick with what they're trying to do is in terms of a rebuild. Arizona went off track with Stepon. Arizona went off track with Taylor Hall. They stopped a rebuild midstream. One thing Bill Armstrong has done is he's steadfast at doing things for the future. You're looking at free agents like Kerrfoot and Bugstead. Do I think there may be a market for that?

Yeah, I love Alex Kirkfoot. I think he's a utility player that can play anywhere in a lineup. I would not be surprised if you see a player like that move. Nick Bukstedt, I'm not sure it fits anymore. If a team's looking for a player like, I love him in Utah. I think he's a great player, but is that somebody that's going to be a valuable asset at the trade deadline? If there's ability for Bill Armstrong to turn some of these older veteran players into a future asset, he will do it. There is not swinging for the fence and's happening in Utah right now.

But over the summer, yeah, Bill Armstrong understands that if he's going to make the playoffs, he needs to make this team better. And I think you saw that with what he did in the back end with Sergeatshev and Marino. The big question for me is, what are they going to do with their goal tending? And Vamalka was a guy that I think a year ago at the trade deadline, they would have given away for any kind of future assets. Now Vamalka is playing a saves above expected is exceptional. He's winning hockey games. And they looked at a guy that at 28 is a guy that they might have traded to help their future.

Now they're questioning, is he the guy that bridge. us to our future. And so I'm curious to see the UFA coming up and Conner Ringham still signed for another year. I think that's the one to watch for me is what do they do with their goal attending tandem over the summer. All right, PD, good stuff. Well, that was a blast. It was great checking in with you. I'll let you plug your new show and your new YouTube page here on the way out. Let the listeners know where they can check you out. Yeah, plugging my new show with Demetri. I've got like 10 people watching, but it's inside the coaches room on the YouTube page. hey, honestly, it's interviews with

NHL coaches, retired, still on the game, assistant coaches. We're going to take you inside the coaches room and tell these kind of stories with guys that have actually been there. And then on the YouTube page, break down a lot of hockey plays. I'll take the Fantilli hat trick and break those kind of plays down and follow me on Twitter at S. Peters Hockey and try to stay up to date with what's going around around the league.

Awesome, buddy. We'll keep up the great work. It's awesome having you behind the mic. We'll have you on again very shortly on the program. That's all from us here today. We'll be back with two more shows to close the week out, so you won't have to wait all that long. Thank you for listening to the Hockey P.D.Ocast streaming on the SportsNet Radio Network.