The Hockey PDOcast - Breaking down Jakob Chychrun's game and the trade market for him

Episode Date: February 24, 2023

Craig Morgan of PHNX Sports joins Dimitri to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of Jakob Chychrun's game, the teams interested in him on the trade market, and what the Coyotes would be looking for in return. This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty.  The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovin. Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name is Dimitra Filippovich and your name is my buddy. Craig Morgan. Craig, what's going on in? Ah, busy time of year, as you mentioned, uh, just off the air. It's trade deadlines a week away and there are a lot of possibilities with Arizona and thus far, none of those have panned out. So we're waiting. We're just playing the waiting game right now. That's right. It's a bit of gridlock. Yeah, I think pretty much, and I'm sure you feel the same way ever since the moment we got that first indication nearly two weeks ago now on a Saturday night that Chickren was going to be sitting out for quote unquote trade related reasons and it felt like the trade was in the

works. I've been just like on edge the entire time. I'm actually slightly selfishly glad it's been such a drawn out process because it's given me time to go back and put the prep work in to go back and rewatch all the shifts this season and really kind of wrap my head around what type of player he is, what is strengths and weaknesses are all that because of course throughout the year I'm not necessarily watching every single coyote's game throughout, but you do. And the reason why I wanted to have you on here is because I don't think anyone has watched more Jacob Chikrin than you have. And so I thought this was a good opportunity for us to kind of get into the weeds on his game, what he brings to the table, kind of familiarize the rest of my listeners with what he actually is,

because you kind of hear a lot of the generic evaluations about what he is or what he isn't. But I've actually found a lot of it to be lacking. Like it seems like a lot of people have just kind of been helicoptering in and just sort of using generic terms to describe what type of player he is. So I really wanted to get into all the details of his game with you. But let's start with walking me through the timeline. So I guess two Saturdays ago now, walk me through like the decision by the coyotes to sit him out, the holding pattern they put themselves in, how close we were to a trade at that time, sort of everything that's culminated to this moment over the past few weeks. Yeah. So it was February 10th in Chicago.

was the last game that he played and they were going to play the blues the following night, and then we found out he was going to be pulled from the lineup for what the team called trade-related reasons, which has now apparently become a buzz phrase in the NHL because two more teams have used it. So apparently the coyotes, you know, set the tone, create the lexicon for the rest of the NHL. I'm not sure if you've heard the Rangers adapted a little bit. Now they're using it as roster management reasons. Yeah, I saw that. It's a bit of a wrinkle. It's better an audible by them. I'm loving the creativity from the media relations departments. We'll see what else we get before the trade downline.

But yeah, that's when we first got wind, that he was coming out of the lineup. And I had the chance finally to talk to Bill Armstrong at length about this on Wednesday night for the Coyote's last game. And he said that at that point, first of all, if you remember, he played almost 30 minutes in that game in Chicago. So they were a little concerned about how maybe worn out he was after that game.

But they also thought, they thought that they were close to a trade. He said all this in the story that I just published yesterday. but as they dove into the details of the trade, it turned out they were not close. So there was nothing imminent at that point when they made the decision. It's just that they thought they were getting close, and then when they dove into the details, it wasn't the case. And then, you know, as he said, you know, as the days went on, you just, okay, you hold them out this next game because you might be able to work it out.

And then one day stretched into the next and here we are now. There are only three games left before the trade deadline now for the coyotes. and Bill Armstrong did tell me in that story, they have no intention of playing Jacob Chikrin the rest of the time. So he's going to sit out the entire time. He did tell me, and I know there's been a lot of speculation about this, that he is 100% healthy, and that's my understanding of the situation as well.

So all the speculation that perhaps he injured himself in that Chicago game was off base. Yeah, I understand a concern because he has had a bit of an injury history and rewatching all the games he's played. There were a couple times this season sprinkled throughout where like he'd block a shot or something and it would be very slow to get up and and that's kind of part of the grind especially of being a physical NHL defenseman the way he is but i understand the concern there to kind of the precaution in that regard i guess my question for

you is you know your sense in talking with people and really kind of being around the team and getting the vibe um you know it feels like there's this like external pressure everyone is so antsy right everyone wants to see this trade happen it feels like it's been the most like long longest drawn-out process that's been going back all the way to last year and myself included here where I was initially saving the show for the day Jacob Chicker and finally got traded and I'd like release a trade breakdown and get into all the minutia of his game and then now we're exactly a week of him of the deadline and I'm starting to get antsy myself and the runway is being limited here so I'm like you know what I better have crag on right now and and just get to it while we still can

but how do you like there's that external pressure that I'm sure they're feeling what's your sense on like the internal desire to kind of like rip the band-aid off and get this get this done with compared to like the reality where time is in their favor in the sense that this is a player that's under contract and it's not necessarily imperative that they get whatever they can for them now they can take this into the offseason again and potentially revisit it in the draft like it's not necessarily that they're working against a ticking clock as we often see around the trade deadline so it's a bit of a unique situation in that way what's your feeling on like kind of how they're balancing those two motivations, those two agendas. Yeah, I would say first of all,

no matter what statements you hear from teammates or the GM or the coach, it's always hovering around the team a little bit, right? And I'm sure Bill Armstrong is feeling a little bit of pressure to get it done. At the same time, as you mentioned, this is a guy that signed for two more seasons at a really reasonable contract. This cap is $4.6 million. I know the salary goes up each of the next two years and there's some trade, there is some clauses within the contract as well. But he's not feeling pressure to get it done at all costs. Like if you look at Bill Armstrong's history here with other traits, there have been situations where people said,

and listen, I talked to a lot of people when they were about to move Darcy Kemper saying he'll never get a first round pick. It's not going to happen for a goaltender. Sometimes the situation, really circumstances arise where you can get, you can get the ask. In Colorado's specific case,

Philip Grubber was suddenly gone. There was nobody really reason. on the market other than maybe Mark Andre Fleury, who, as it turned out, wasn't available. So you are in your cup window. You need a goalie. They went on, got Darcy Kemper, and the coyotes got a first-round traffic for him, as well as Connor Dimens, who, of course, has moved on. But the point here is Bill Armstrong's entire tenure here, and I know it's a short one, has been one of patience. He's not going to pull the trigger if he doesn't feel like he's getting requisite value for Jacob Chicker. And I think everybody knows by now what some of that return is

that he's asking for. It's not fixed at I need two first round picks and a prospect. He's going to be malleable in that. If it's the equivalent of that, he'll probably accept that. If you get a player that was a first round pick that they like plus another first round pick and a prospect, they'll probably take that. But he's going to hold out. And he said in that story, and I'm sure you saw it, I feel very comfortable on the other side. If we come out the other side, even if we get past the draft this summer and Jacob's Chikrin is still a coyote, I feel comfortable with him coming back to the team. And that's a sentiment that has been echoed by Coach Andre Turinje and the players as well. Chick has friends on this team. It's not like he's persona non grata, you know. He's not a pariah

out there. He comes back in. You can see when I went to practice when he got back on the ice with his teammates for the first time in a couple weeks, they were laughing. They were joking. It's not like he doesn't get along with those guys. I think the pressure just is, they know the player wants to move on. Bill would like to get this done so he doesn't have to deal with it anymore. But again, he's going to Holt firm on his ask. That has been his track record. Well, it's interesting you mentioned that the kind of contract wrinkle there. I think that is a potential factor here. I believe that it's a 10-team no move that kicks in this summer, right? Yeah. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure of the exact reporting on this, but from what I gather, there was a trade at least that was talked about

around the table involving the Columbus Blue Jackets at last year's draft. And they've also kind of been linked as a team that's circled back to it and is intrigued in Shikrin because of his age, because of his contract status that they potentially have used some of their futures that they've banked to kind of revisit a trade like that. And I wonder if, you know, if they are going to explore that, a 10-team no-move would potentially limit the market a little bit. So that would be one potential kind of timeline concern here. I guess in the grand scheme of things, though, that still leaves you with, what, 21 other teams, not that all of them would be in the trade market for them. But it's not necessarily as restrictive as a full no-move. But I guess that is a

consideration that's worth pointing out here. Well, here's what I would say on that, and I did report from the draft floor that year that it was. They did have a deal in place with the Columbus Blue Jackets. It was Jikrin's camp that quashed it. Yeah. And that scared off Yarmokicolina at the time. So while he didn't have any trade protection at the time, he still exerted some control over the situation. So I'm not sure how much that will come into play. I'm not sure if his feelings have changed about the Columbus Blue Jackets who right now are in the running for Connor Padar. they have very strong odds. But yeah, I don't know how much of a factor that will be.

And you wonder, as this thing drags on longer and longer, if Jacob Chikrin just wants to get it over with and won't be that restrictive, there's a good deal in place. Yeah, well, I was giving a lot of thoughts on the market, right? I think initially my sort of three dream landing spots were at him would have been the Bruins, who are now out and after the Demetrior oil trade, the oilers, and we can get into this, but there's been a lot of reporting. And from what everything I gather,

they have a wildly different evaluation of Jacob Tricken's game than you or I might. So I'm not sure if they're even nearly as interested as been initially reported. And then the Kings who have been linked to him for a year and a half now, and it makes a lot of sense from a fit perspective where they are as an organization, what they need on the left side. But if all of a sudden it comes down to just the Kings is the really truly interested party that does limit your leverage a bit in terms of asking price, especially in the moment. I guess the blues have been linked as well in terms of using some of these first April

coup to the trade headlines. to speed up the process and turn that around. I'm not sure about that bit because they have so much money tied up in their top four defensemen already that I'm not sure investing more resources into another defenseman unless they can ship out, break those contracts or something like that makes sense. Yeah, never underestimate relationships either, right?

Bill Arshon came from the Blues. Absolutely. And I would throw the Buffalo Sabres into that mix potentially as well. So, yeah. Yeah, and the reason why I want to do the show with you was because, you know, I think the oilers is such a fascinating team in this discussion because on the surface,

you look at it, it's like, I think he is the perfect player for what they need. It makes a lot of sense. The contract allows them to squeeze him in much more than going out and acquiring someone like Eric Carlson, for example, by comparison would. Everything I gather is, they're scared off by his playing style and his defensive game. And I just, this is a good segue for us to talk about his actual on ice product, because I just don't see that at all. I'm curious for your take on, like, watching him from day one kind of how his game. game has evolved and what you've seen from him more recently because I think the way he plays is has been kind of mischaracterized I guess by people who haven't been watching them as closely as

you have. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I don't know where you want to start from, you know, breaking down his game, but you mentioned the defensive side of it. And I think if you look at and Steve Peters, who works with me at PHNX, he was the Coyote's video and assistant coach for 23 three years. So he's very versed in breaking down this sort of stuff. We did a deep dive on what what Chikrin was doing this season that had led to a return to sort of the play that we were accustomed to in previous seasons, especially that one year where he was in the Norris Trophy conversation three seasons ago. One of the things that we've noticed defensively is he's not as passive as he was last season. His gap control has been better. He's been, you know, what

coaches call surfing. He's been aggressive in cutting off the play and driving players to the outside. He's been much better with his stick, which I actually think was a forte of his defensively anyway. I've always felt like he had a good stick in the defensive zone. And he's pretty good along the walls. So I think that area of his game has taken a big leap back forward this season after a really tough year last year. We just, I don't know, he didn't feel as engaged. He was in a different role. They put him in more of a defensive role and he didn't respond well to it at all. quite honestly, just wasn't very good last season, but I feel like he's taking a big leap forward there. So I'll let you talk and tell me what you've seen as well. Well, it feels like last year,

I don't want necessarily say we should throw it away because every year, every sample like that is an important checkpoint. But it does feel like it's a bit of an outlier, especially over his past three or four seasons that I've seen from it, right? And for whatever reason, I mean, he was banged up. He played like 46, 47 games. The team around him was obviously a mess and it wasn't very competitive. And so, and not to mention he had poor percentage luck as well. I believe both is on ice and on shooting NC percentage were both lower than they usually are. And so I think all of that kind of coalesced into distorting what he actually was. I think this year, I've actually been quite impressed with his defensive game.

You know, you mentioned some of the, like the aggression in terms of, you know, holding his own blue line and proactively sort of attacking puck carriers as opposed to sagging back and letting them into the zone. I've seen that. I've actually, you know, I think a big hallmark of his game is actually his play down low, whether it's along the boards or in front of his own net. I've been very impressed with, like, his tracking where, like, he just glues on to his assignment, especially if he's trying to box out in front of the net and limits what they can do if the puck comes around them really well. And it just basically neutralizes them entirely with his stick work and his physicality. So what I see from him is actually, like, I'm much more encouraged about his defensive game than his offensive game. I know the shot. is like very highly regarded and all of that certainly. But I just, when you hear the team like the Oilers say, oh, he's, you know, we like his offensive game, but we're concerned about his defensive acumen. I just, I have to say, I haven't seen that at all, correct? Yeah, and I agree with you. I don't know where you would arrive, unless you haven't done enough scouting of him recently. One of the things that I will say about this, too, when I talk to Jacob

Chikrin on breakup day, when he dropped that bomb that it was time to move on and a lot of people started reacting and then all the trade talk was leading up to the draft. One of the things that I noticed about him, he was physically much thicker than he had been previously and he told me he had been working on his body a lot and first off, if you know Jacob

Chikrin, he's maniacal about his workouts. He is, you'll never have to worry about this guy dedicating himself to doing what he needs to get better, to get his body better, to get everything better in his game. He is dedicated to the craft without a doubt, but he is much thicker and stronger

We didn't get a chance to see that in action last year because all of that happened after he went out of the lineup after he got injured and didn't return. I think that's playing into what he's doing this season as well. You mentioned his play along the walls down in the corners. He's just a strong guy so he can exert his will in those situations. And I think he's more confident as a result of that. Well, you know where you see it actually manifest oddly enough, but his stick checking. And he's always like, well, I know sport logic tracks this. he's always ranked very highly in terms of like his activity in the defensive zone in terms of

breaking plays up, the stick checks, just kind of being in the way. But this year, I actually see that strength sort of show up and he's kind of creating extra reach for himself when he's trying to like to defend the blue line or like even in tight by taking one hand off the stick and essentially just like reaching out with one hand. Yeah, that's a hallmark of his game. It's still been strong enough to, you know, not necessarily diminish his effectiveness. it's not like he's compensating to just try to, you know, get in the way. Like, he's still breaking plays up by doing so. And so it makes sense, right? He's turning 25 soon here.

Like, this is kind of, he's entering his physical prime as a defender. So it makes sense that this would be happening. But yeah, I think that's a really good point in terms of what we've seen from this here and kind of, you know, what's become a real staple of his game, I think. That sweeping stick check that you're talking about, used to drive Rick Tock crazy because he'd get a little off balance with it and he'd get himself out of position. He's not doing that anymore. He's really learned to stay compact when he's doing it and stay in position, but you're right. It extends his reach. He can get into passing lanes, get into shooting lanes, or he can just take the puck off guy's sticks by doing that.

Yeah. Yeah. And in front of the net, I mean, his ability to take the stick, lean on the body, and then just, you know, erase guys has been really fun to watch. I don't know. Like, I'm curious about the offensive side from your perspective because, you know, we can put the shot to the side. But I think just in terms of his offensive game, I think an important. piece of context here is, I've got it written down. Since he entered the league in 2016-17, 17, this is where the coyotes have ranked in 5-1-5 scoring as a team. 24th out of 30 teams at the time,

28th out of 30th. Then 2018-19, after Vegas came into the league, 31st out of 31. 2019-20, they got up all the way up to 22nd out of 31, and that was the year they made the playoffs and were really competitive. The following year, 24th, and 26th out of 32 teams, and 26th again this year. And I think that is an important piece of context here. because he's never necessarily been an environment that's been very conducive to, you know, creating offensively. So I guess my question for you is how much of this is sort of nature versus nurture in terms of his game where if he was in a different environment, you would actually see the kind of creativity and the playmaking and the creation in the offensive zone flourish even more versus

kind of what he just is as a player at this point. I don't think that creativity is a big part of his game. and it may evolve. He's not a guy. Like, if you're looking for a guy who's going to carry the puck through the neutral zone, that's not Jacob Chikrin. He's more the guy that's going to join the rush. He's a powerful, powerful, powerful skater. And of course, he can find open ice. He can hammer that shot. That's who he is as a player.

Can it evolve? I don't know. Other parts of his game have evolved. And he's still young enough. Defensemen tend to come along, you know, more slowly. In my opinion, it's the most difficult position to play in this game. So I think that could come if he works on it, but I don't think that is a big part of his game at this point. Having said that, one area of his game that I've noticed that has improved, that it's that first pass out of the zone.

His vision for breakout passes has really improved. There's a play that comes to mind where he spotted loss in Krause between the center line and the offensive blue with a long pass, put it literally on the tape, and Kraus one touched it to another player for a goal. That sort of part of his game is coming along. those areas could come. But again, I think the things that I mentioned before, his ability to join the rush as such a powerful skater and that big shot are his strengths offensively. The other thing that I would say, you're right, there hasn't been elite talent with the coyotes for, well, let's be honest, for two plus decades. What do you mean? They had, they had Pavel Dadsook, they had Chris Pronger. I mean, they, I forgot the legend's quarter. Yes, yes, yes.

But if you look at his usage this season, primarily he was playing with Shane Gostis Bear as a defensive pairing, as his defensive partner, and he was on the ice a lot with Nick Schmaltz and Clayton Keller, who have found incredible chemistry together. So he was on the ice in offensive situations with very gifted players, maybe not the center position,

which has been a donut hole for this franchise, again, for two plus decades, but he was on the ice with some very talented offensive players. That's a really great point you made on the breakouts. That's kind of what I notice as well, where he's very smooth and effective when he's like decisive, right? When there's the first option there for him, and it could be a short pass or a long one. But if it's there for him, he's really good at that.

It's kind of like a quarterback where if the first read is open, he can get you the ball, he can get you the puck. But all of a sudden, when he needs to kind of freelance or extend the play and try to make something out of nothing, I think that's actually where he gets himself in the trouble. It seems like he sometimes skates himself into problems when he tries to overcomplicate it. And I think that's kind of why I brought up the nature of his nurture because I think that, you know, sometimes the options just aren't there for him, especially with some of the talent he's playing with, whereas if you put him in a situation where he's playing on a really skilled, gifted, offensive, well-rounded team, I think he'd be in a better position to succeed just purely because it seems it would feel like, you know, the structure and the support that comes with the territory of being a good team would all of a sudden allow him to make that play more often and would sort of limit some of his weaknesses in that regard. So that's kind of why I brought up the creativity because I think his game, and that's why I'm so puzzled by all the evaluations I see of him. Like I actually think he plays a very no frills offensive game, right?

It's sort of like read and react. He sees someone, he tries to pass it to him. He just the opposite zone. He wants to shoot it as hard as he can on that. And that's totally fine. But I just don't see a lot of like, you know, creativity in terms of like, oh, I'm going to take the puck. I'm going to put my head down. I'm going to go into some space.

I'm going to wait for someone to get open. Like you don't really see much of that sort of wiggle in his game. Right. Yeah, I agree with that completely. in basketball terms, he's not the guy who's going to create his own shot, but if you can find him, he's going to, he's a very good shooter. And that was, I mean, they used him, Rick Tuckett loved to, he tried to use him on the power play because of that. He just, he talked all the time about trying to utilize Chick shot because he had the best shot on the team.

Well, and I will say, like, for all, like, it's easy to knock the coyotes this season in terms of talent they have in the situation he's in. But I think when he's been in the lineup, they've actually done a pretty good job of showcasing his skills because, as you said, playing with Shane Gosses-Barre is, I think, a good partner for him because he has much more creativity on the breakout to his game with some of those plays break down. And on the power play, I mean, you're seeing him in that sort of shooter spot on the flank, but there's been a couple times even where I've seen him kind of gravitate down towards almost the net front and wait for some tapins from Keller or for Schmeltz. So it's been a pretty good spot for him in terms of

getting the most out of him offensively that they can and sort of sheltering some of his weaknesses. But I think that is an important distinction to make because he certainly has the talent to make plays, but I think his sort of skill set in terms of what he wants to accomplish is kind of limited. And considering he's been in the league for, what, five, six, seven years now and he's approaching 25 years old, I tend to think this is sort of the player he is. I think they could probably get a bit more out of him on a different team in a different situation. But when someone's been around for this long, you sort of get to get a feeling of like what they're sort of capable of and what they are as a player. Yeah, I tend to agree with that. That's, I mean, that's, that's what

history tells us over and over again. The thing is that the thing. that I always keep in the back of my mind with Jacob Chikrin is because he's so dedicated to the craft. Could he do this? I don't know. Could he go work with Adam Oates about carrying the fuck through the neutral stuff? I don't know. Is there a way to improve that part of his game? Because I know a lot of people talk about him.

This is a number one defenseman in the league. I don't think Jacob Chikrin's a number one defenseman. I think he is ideally suited on your second pair. And his contract says so, right? You can fit him in easily in that situation. We'll see what happens after two more seasons. But if you can plug him into your second pair, man, I really.

think you can maximize this guy's talents. Yeah, I think so as well. I mean, over the course of the years, because this year in particular, right, he's played with Shane Gossus Bear, as his most common partner, who is also a natural lefty, and Gostis Bear has been the one to slide over and play on the right side for the most part from what I've gathered. Yeah. Is there a confidence that if he went to a team, like, say, let's say, the Sabres, for example,

who are loaded on the left side and would need more right-handed versatility or utility from their defensemen, do you think that? that he would feel comfortable in that situation actually moving over there long term? Or do you think it's a matter of like, no, you want him on the left side because that's where he's most comfortable. He's definitely most comfortable on the left side. I know there's been that there was a narrative last season that, oh, yeah, he can play the right side easily. Look, he's barely done it in his career. They've used him on the left side. And that's the evaluation of a few different coaching staff who have all determined that he should be on the left side. So I think that's his strength.

Could he do it? Maybe, I don't know. He'd probably be open to it. But I do think that he belongs. on the left side and and ghost has actually told me he's he's actually really comfortable on the right side he actually prefers it in some situation so that's why they did in that instance and and that's what allowed them to play together but I do think Jacob Chikrin is a left side defenseman okay okay um let's take our break here while we still can because I've got a bunch of other stuff that I wanted to get into but I don't want us to get too deep into it before we uh so we miss out on our break so we'll take that break here and then we come back we'll keep chatting with Craig Borgon about Jacob Chichron and all this good stuff you were listening to the

hockey ptio guest streaming on the sports Night Radio Network. Everything Canucks. Before and after the games. Canucks Central with Dan Riccio and Satyar Shah. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. We're back here on the Hock Videocast chatting with Craig Morgan.

We're doing our Jacob Chick-Chicron-D dive here. You know who was interesting to me when I was looking at his seasons and kind of parsing everything? What was it two years ago now or whatever? The shortened season with 56 games? It's, that was, I want to see. hear like a book written about, I want to read a book about just what went into that season for chicken in terms of how everything in the offense flowed through him and what a remarkable

sort of convergence of factors that was. Looking back at it now, like he, he counted for about 30% of the shots the coyotes took while he was on the ice. It was, it was remarkable. It was Ovechkin like almost and, and you know, he had 18 goals and 56 games that year. Now he shot 12% as well, but I think, um, or no, he should, yeah, he shot around 10% but he accounted for 12% of the team's total goals that season. Sorry, I should say. That was a remarkable season. I think that was also, you know, when you talk about sort of aberrations, how last year, with his numbers dipping across the board, I think that was a bit of a write-off. Statistically, I think that 18-goal season in 56 games has also kind of distorted a bit, right?

Like, he clearly has a very heavy shot and he likes to use it. And I think he can have utility for that for a team, especially if he, like the reason why I liked him for a team, like the Bruins, for example, and maybe this applies for the Oilers as well, was if he playing with really gifted playmakers who utilize the full offensive zone really well, he's going to be in much more like open shooting positions to utilize it, right? He's not going to have to force it from distances often. And that still might apply, especially if he goes to Oilers and he's getting passes from Mick David and Dre Seidel for example. But that's just a luxury he hasn't. As much as I love watching Clayton Keller, Slice and Dice and him and Schmaltz, as

you mentioned, have had a great connection together. I think there's a bit of a discrepancy there, especially when those guys aren't out with him and who can create and set the table for him. So that's something that I wanted to note as well because he's been characterized as kind of this offensive dynamo who scores a lot of goals and it's really kind of just that one season for the most part it's it's a good shot but it's not anything I'm necessarily building my offense around yeah I would I would agree with you on all those points and I am curious to see what he can do if he can play with a number of skill players where he can find that open ice because listen I do think he's a goal scoring defenseman I don't know if he's going to be in that sort of

rarefied error that he was that season with, you know, if you extend that out over 82 games, he's going to have a hell of a goal scoring season. Could he be a defenseman that scores 20 goals, though, in this league? Yeah, I think he can because he has that shot. He loves to shoot. He's going to fire. You mentioned Doveskin. He does have that mentality. He wants to shoot the puck when he gets it on a stick. And again, going back to that season, where he had 18 and 56, the coyotes were finding situations to get him the puck in good ice. That was a focus for Rick Tocke. it hasn't necessarily been the same focus with Andre Turin-yi. Could it be with another coach in the right situation, possibly?

You know, I mentioned how I really liked his breakouts when he was decisive and he makes the first read when he tries to do too much, he puts himself into trouble. I think defensively, maybe this is where some of the issue that teams have had is when he gets himself into trouble defensively, it's when he tries to do too much in the offensive zone in regard of, like, getting too low in the zone and maybe trying to you know, force the issue in terms of creation. And that's where the nature versus nurture then comes into the equation as well, because on this coyote's team, there's been pretty star for offense for the majority of his tenure with the team. It makes sense that a guy who, you know, likes to shoot,

likes to score is going to try to put himself in those positions to kind of create where he can. If he was on a different team, maybe he could really tone his game down or pick his spots more. And the reason why I say that is because he gets into trouble sometimes defensively when he has to sort of retreat quickly and try to try to catch up on the fly. I just don't really think he's a good mover, but I don't think he's like as prolific of a skater as some other top defenseman where, you know, you watch Amirio Heiskenen, he's able to be behind the other teams net and then be the first guy back.

And that's not really what I see from Chikrin. He's much more of a strong rush defender when he's able to, you know, be in position, keep everyone in front of him, and then attack from that direction as opposed to retreating and defending that way. So I don't know if you see that as well or if you think that is a potential sort of issue in his game or a little bit of a bugaboo, but it feels like that would also be ironed out playing on a team that maybe has more support in terms of always having a forward back that can kind of cover for him when he's not there. Yeah, and it's also an issue that can be ironed out with coaching and development. But, you know, you mentioned earlier, he gets himself in those situations sometimes desperately trying to create something for a team that is often.

start, Shane Gossesbury does the same thing. It's been a knock on his game for a while where he's trying to make that extra play where maybe it isn't prudent. He probably should have read the play a little bit better and there's a bad turnover. It gets caught a little too deep and then he's trying to get back. I do think that's a factor in this with the team that he's playing on. There are situations where you're desperately trying to create offense and then you get caught in a bad situation. But can he defend better through the neutral zone when he's trying to catch up? Probably. And again, And that could be something that could be worked on or it could be something that simply doesn't have to do as much because he's on a better team in a different situation. Yeah, yeah, I think exposure to it and not being in those situations as often is probably the way to go.

Okay, well, we mentioned, I think the market is, we kind of touched on this at the start. I did want to circle back to it a little bit here because with the Bruins out now, if you were handicapping this, put on your, put on your, we don't have a betting sponsor for the show, but put on your, your, your, your, your, uh, bookie hat. here and give us some of the lines in terms of what you think the most realistic outcomes or rollout here is for how this goes. Do you think we're going to see a surprise team potentially jump in? I actually saw, you know, in doing my prep this morning, I saw the Pittsburgh Penguins kind of threw their name into the ring as a team that has been at least checked in a couple

times. Now, that might just be, you know, they're struggling and they're doing their due diligence or exploring where they can improve as opposed to a serious consideration. But it feels like we've got the Sabres. we've got the Kings. I'm sort of ruling out the Oilers for now, just I don't really think they're seriously that in it. Is there anyone else that we're not considering here

that you think could make themselves available for a potential trade? Not that I'm aware of, but I hate doing these sorts of predictions because you just don't know. All takes his one phone call, and suddenly the entire landscape changes. In terms of whether he's going to be traded, this deal has always felt to me like the sort of deal that gets done in the offseason at the draft. First of all, you have more suitors.

It's complex, but teams have a better sense. of their roster and the cap. So there are a lot of mitigating factors here that make me think that this is going to be more of a deal that happens at the draft. Could I be wrong? Of course I could. Again, it takes only one phone call. But when you look at the climate in the NHL right now with all the teams that are bumping up

against the cap, there are less teams that are willing to be that, you know, that broker as a third party because there are a lot of teams that are retaining salary already. I know the coyotes don't want to retain salary or really take back big salaries. They took on Shea Weber because that's an assurance that they can reach the cap floor and they don't have to pay much, you know, barely anything of his salary. So that's the kind of thing that they would be looking at. And if you look at some of the deals that they've taken back in terms of actual cash value, a lot of those players, despite their cap hit, were owed far less in salary.

That's a concern for the coyotes. They only have so much cash to spend. So that further complicates the market. So they might need to bring in a third party. And again, there are less teams available to do that. there are a lot of complicating factors with this trade which make me think that if it's going to happen, it's more likely to happen in the summer. I mean, is anything more revealing about what a messed up situation the league is in right now financially than a 25-year-old defenseman making 4.6 million

over the next two seasons, potentially needing to be either retained on to make the money work or throwing it a third party to facilitate cash movement? I mean, it's ridiculous, right? I think next year he's currently slated to be like the 62nd highest paid defenseman, and that's before some three-agent contracts we see this summer, it seems like perfectly fair value. Actually, it's a great value for whatever team has them for the next two seasons after this one. And so the idea that 4.6 is still a bit too pricey,

and we need to maneuver the money to make it work is a sad state of affairs for the league, I think. Yeah, no question about that. I just talked to a bunch of agents recently, now that we have a new NHLPA ad and growing league revenues is number one on, it's top of mind for most agents. It's a, you know, I know Gary Bettman has been touted as a guy who's grown revenues in this league and the ownership. Most of the ownership groups are happy about that, but there are a lot of people out there that don't think that it's grown nearly at the level that it should.

I don't know how fair the comparisons are to other leagues given the NHL's place in professional sports, but there's a lot of dissatisfaction with the growth of revenue. And not surprisingly, it comes from the agent player side most of the time when you're having those conversations. So, you know, in terms of the market, rather than discussing the teams involved, because it seems like we all have a good grasp of know, what are we looking for in terms of return here? It's been speculated that are kind of looking for, what, two first round picks or three assets that are equivalent. The first round picks that involves prospects. I guess I guess that's stretching your definition because the Canucks, when they made their trade for Bor Horvant, cited that they got three first round picks in return. And it was like a player who was once regarded as a first round pick and went in the second round. a guy who was a first rounder like 10 years ago and then an actual first round thing.

So we can stretch our definition of what a first round equivalent is, but what do you think the coy is looking for? Because they're obviously very well stocked in terms of draft capital already. I'm kind of curious whether they prefer more of a quantity approach just to have as many lottery tickets as they can or whether they'd potentially really narrow their focus down to like getting one kind of premium crown jewel asset and not really worrying about, you know, other potential kind of secondary. pieces, I guess. I mentioned earlier. I think Bill Armstrong will be flexible on this. The basic ask is,

yeah, those two first rounders and probably another asset thrown in as well, will he be open to the idea that one of those players could have been a first round draft pick in the past? Yes, so long as their scouting staff actually likes that player. It can't just be, oh, he was a first round pick with their own men. But yeah, they're open to that sort of thing. The other thing I would say, though, is if we get to the draft, that could change. If a team comes to Bill Armstrong at the draft and says, here's the number 10 overall pick, well, then you know it's a known commodity rather than where is this pick going to fall when I'm actually drafting. If it's that high a pick, they might sell for that pick and a prospect at the draft and be done with it. So again,

it's fluid. I know there are a lot of characterizations of this is exactly what Bill Armstrong is looking for. It's a negotiation. If there's never a fixed price, you always have to negotiate. Yeah. Well, the reason why I thought they were in a good position to make a deal with a team like, let's say the Bruins is because it feels like the coyotes would be one of the few organizations that would be comfortable making a trade here where some of the draft picks they get are years in advance. It's not something we typically see in the NHL, right? It seems like everyone wants like immediate gratification and you rarely ever see like the NBA style trades where you're getting draft picks like five, six years down the road. If you're making a deal with a contender,

everyone loves this upcoming draft, right? I think the top of it in particular is very boring. But any traffic you get from a contender will probably not allow you. It'll give you another sort of bullet in the chamber in terms of all right, now you have another first round pick. Maybe you can package some of them together to move up. Well, you're not really getting access to any of those top prospects in theory. Whereas if you trade with one of these contenders and you get a 24, 25, or 26 first rounder, all of a sudden, that opens at least the range of outcomes for that team sort of falling off the map

or really struggling and then that becoming a legitimate premium asset. And so I'd be curious to see if the. coyotes explore that and whether that becomes a feasible option for them rather than just focusing all their efforts on getting as many picks as we can right now in the immediate future. Yeah, that's a good point. And I wanted to go back to something that you said earlier too, whether the coyotes would prefer to get, you know, an actual player or if they're hell-bent on getting draft picks. I will say this. Bill Armstrong is a scout by trade, and they love draft picks. And having covered this team, basically since it arrived in the valley, they have never

had a more complete scouting staff or capable scouting staff than they have right now. So I know he would love to give them as many assets to play with as possible. That's something to keep in the back of your mind. They really want to have as many picks as possible. I don't, listen, there comes a point where if you have like seven second round draft picks in a draft, you're not, you're not going to exercise all those, right? But he's, he's also focused on extending this out over a three to four year period to make sure that they have plenty of assets that they can work with each season so that they, a part of that sustainability, right? You can't just stack all your draft picks within a few years and then suddenly, you know, you don't have any bullets left in the

chamber, as you put it earlier, for the upcoming seasons. He wants a steady flow of prospects into the system. So I think they're comfortable acquiring as many draft assets as they can over the next few seasons. Oh, maybe, you know, I'm looking at their cap-friendly page now. I didn't even realize the only picks they have in excess this year are in the third round. They have the capitals. Right. And the Vegas fifth. it's really 2024. They have three seconds and three thirds, and then 2025. They have four second round picks.

That's kind of where they loaded. So maybe I kind of accidentally kind of stumbled onto what they're actually already doing. Yeah. Yeah, no question. Again, it goes back to that idea of just having sustainability. You want a steady flow of prospects into your system. But they can use those assets too, right? When you have that many in a round, you can package them, as you mentioned earlier,

to move up and maybe pursue a player that you really want. They did that a couple times in this past draft. I love it. Okay. Is there any other notes on Chick-Kerm before I get into another topic here with you? Like, I feel like we did a pretty good job of kind of cover on our bases. I thought it was important to sort of highlight his actual strength and weakness as opposed to some of the headline headlines you'll see about him, but I don't know, is there anything we left on the table? I guess the one thing that I would add, and I know there are a lot of characterizations from the outside, and sure it can be frustrating at times for player, for agent, for family, that this thing hasn't happened already. but Chick has kept a pretty good attitude about this whole thing. I mentioned the lead of my story that I wrote on him the other day

was simply him walking through and seeing media and just being playful with him. He was in good spirits when he was taking the ice for the first time in two weeks with his teammates. It doesn't seem like it's necessarily wearing on him. He seems to be taking the right attitude about it. And Bill Armstrong has said the same thing. He's been a complete professional about this. I don't think that was the case at the start of the season with those viral comments that he made on Media Day.

but I think he understands now how he has to approach this, and he's done it. Give him credit. He's done everything he can on the ice, and he's taking the right mental and just attitude approach off the ice. Wait, what did he say at the start of the season? I can't. Yeah, I mean, I could characterize it.

I wouldn't want to misquote him, but it was basically, yeah, I don't want to be here. Right. And you know how these things were, too, right? When a guy's speaking on Media Day, they're very coached. media relations departments will coach a player to say what they hope he will say. Jacob Chikrin didn't stay on script at all. So it caused quite a fear when he talked about wanting to leave,

getting tired of a team that's not competing. He wants to go to a team that can win. So I don't think that's sat well with the organization or even some of his teammates basically saying, yeah, I want to win right now. Like, well, all your teammates want to win right now, too. It's just not the situation here. There's just a way of being diplomatic about he wasn't necessarily diplomatic that day. but he's taken a different tack since then.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I, Craig, I get in it's like a very delicate situation. I understand all of factors and motivations in play. I, in the grand scheme of things, though, it is a bit frustrating for me from the outside. Like, a 24-year-old who is physically able to play just sitting out while they're waiting for this, like that can't be good, right? Like, not that it's not just a knock against him or against the Cody's organization or anything like that, but just in terms of like you want to see players play and especially a player who's in his prime seasons

and it's physically capable, like he should be on the ice playing game. So I think that's where I would like to see resolution more than anything. Yeah, and it's mutual, right? Both sides have agreed on that. What gets interesting is if they get through these three games they get to the trade deadline,

he hasn't been moved. Okay, now is he back in the lineup? He probably is. Again, his teammates, his coach say that won't be weird, but it will still be bizarre from our perspective, that he sat out all this time or nothing. Yeah, I guess he's been, he's still been around the team, right? Like, he's been watching the games practicing recently with him.

So it's all like he's been sitting at home and he's going to come back and be like, oh, hey, what you guys have been up to the past couple weeks? Like, at least he's been around. But I imagine that would be a pretty strange workplace to be part of. It's like, hey, not that it's new because I think his intentions in terms of where he wants to take his career have already been, not telegraphed, like he's come out openly and said them as he talked about. So it's not a surprise to anyone.

So no one's going to be like, oh, we didn't know you felt this way, but it still is, it is a bit awkward. Yeah, no question about that. Do you want to talk quickly about Nick Schmaltz? He's a player whose name I've heard come up quite a bit recently. And there was a while where my pal and Thomas Drans was always a couple summers ago cooking up trades where the Canucks would take on Schmaltz's contract and do the coyotes of favor and get assets back in return for facilitating it. that's the way Schultz's deal, Schmaltz's deal was viewed at the time where it was like, all right, you probably aren't going to be able to just get off of it because of the money that's still owed to him in the future.

He sort of played himself into a situation here playing alongside Clayne Keller over the past couple weeks, particularly. They've been so productive together where there's legitimate interest now at the deadline for teams viewing them as not only a player that they'd like, but a player that they'd like legitimately pay assets to get on their team. So you're really, the coyotes. You've got to be feeling pretty good about how that's, you got to be feeling pretty good about how that situation has been materialized. I'm kind of curious for what you've heard on the interest

level and the viability of a deal like that happening over the next week. Yeah, that's interesting to me because you're right. Only a couple seasons ago, and I think people would say the same thing about the Clayton Keller contract. These were immovable contract. These were albatropses that John Chica had saddled the team with. And nobody's viewing either of those contracts that way. Now, it's funny you mentioned the Kodox because instead they went and did the coyotes a favor by taking OEL's contract off their hands and gave him Dylan Gunter in the process. But with Nick Schmaltz, the buzz has picked up very recently. So I don't even have a good feel for what the ask would be on the coyotes part.

For a player that's been as productive as he has been, however, and the salary factors into this as well, right? You got to sort that out and that complicates things because I already told you what I told you about the coyotes, not wanting to retain salary, not wanting to take something big in return. That complicates matter, so it may change the ass. But if you look at what Nick Schmalls has done the past two seasons, when he's been on the ice because he has had injuries, both seasons that have limited his play. He's basically been a point per game player. I think he has 98 points and 105 games over the past two seasons,

largely playing with Clayton Keller. They have incredible chemistry together. I'm curious to see where this one plays out. I still think that this is another one of those deals that's difficult to make because of the current climate. Maybe this happens in the summer as well. I know a lot of people around here are like, why are we moving Nick Schmaltz? He's one of our best players.

Well, he's 27 years old. His trade value probably will never be higher than it is right now. We know what the trajectory of players looks like. It's not even 30 years old now. It's like 28 and suddenly we're on the downslope of their career. He's incredibly productive right now. He can definitely help a team in a playoff hunt right now. He's going to provide a lot of offense.

The strengths to his game transition game. He is so good carrying. I don't think he gets talked about enough for how well he carries the puck through neutralize. He's so fast and so adept at weaving in and out of neutralize. He's really good in that area. The other thing that is really underrated in this game is backtracking. I can't tell you how many times I've seen him backchecking, lifting a guy stick, taking the puck off. He does that well.

He gets in trouble in his own zone. His defensive awareness in the defensive zone isn't necessarily there. He can't play down low. He's not a good face-up, man. And so if you're thinking this is our second line center, you got to solve that with somebody else on his line who's got to take care of those duties down low and probably take your faceoffs. But he can bring a lot to you offensively and theories that I just mentioned. And again, his trade value is never going to be higher. So you can understand why the coyotes would consider this for a 27-year-old player who's probably not going to be a part of this team when it emerges, assuming it does emerge from this rebuild.

Yeah, the last two years, he's as you mentioned, he's performing at a 30 goal, 75 point pace. over 82 games and he's 60th in the league on a points per minute basis in between Patrick Kane and Claude Drew, two players who I think are held in higher esteem even at this point than he is and he's been every bit as productive, right? And so, yeah, you know, the contract is very fascinating for me because as you mentioned, just turned 27 as three years left, 5.85, which I think is totally fine. The reason why I circle it as a motivation for the coyotes is because the salary escalates quite a bit beyond that, right? And that's always a consideration here. 7.5, 8.45, 8.5 million in actual dollars of those finals three years. And at the risk of stepping

on the toes of a podcast I'm going to do next week, which is the annual sort of trades I'd like to see, I know that a team like the Avalanche, for example, would be highly interested because they do have the personnel to insulate some of his weaknesses and they could desperately use some more plate making chops, especially down the middle. But if you're not retaining some of that salary, it's really tough for them to put in $5.85 million, especially moving forward on their cap sheet. And so that's where it becomes a complicating factor. I think you would almost certainly need to bring in a third team to bring him down. And even then, it would be slightly difficult to finagle. But whether it's them or a team like the stars or any number of contenders,

like his playmaking chops would play very well on a contender. Yeah, Colorado is the team that I put at the top of the list that was actually talking to their beatwriters yesterday about this, how he would fit in. And you're right, they have the players to shelter his weaknesses. He'd be, I think, they could certainly use a boo. there. They've actually, I know people don't think about the Colorado avalanche in this regard, but they've struggled offensively a bit this season, and I know injuries have played a major role in that as well, but he'd be a really good fit there. It would, as you said, however, probably take that brokerage house, that third team to make the salary things work.

Okay, Greg, well, this was a blast. I'm glad we were finally able to get you on the show. It was a long time coming, and it was a lot of fun. I'll let you on the way out, promote some work, let the listeners know where they can check you out and what kind of stuff you've got coming on. Because you've been doing some really good break. I really enjoy the chat that you had with the Cody's GM and a bunch of other stuff on the CBA and all that. So let the listeners know all about all that good stuff. Yeah, you can find our website at go-PhNX.com. It's PHNX Sports.

I get on a lot of places that just pronounce it as Phoenix, but we've removed them all. So it's just pronounced the letters. And you can find me on Twitter at Craig S. Morgan. As far as what I have coming up, you kind of know. The trade deadline is a week away. So I'm all in on the trade deadline right now. have this like one million question mailback that I have to get to before it, but I will be focused completely on the trade deadline for the next week or so. I love it. All right, man. Well, this is a blast. I'm certainly hoping to have you back on in the future. Thank you to listeners for listening to the Hockey P.D.O cast, it's the end of another week, but we're not going to wait till Monday

to put out more shows. We are going to have a fun little treat for you over this weekend and a lot of good stuff planned that I think you'll enjoy leading up to the trade deadline. So look forward to that on the feed. And thank you for listening. We will be back. with more of the Hockey PTO cast streaming on the Sportsnet radio network.